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Calls from 'Sarah' kept on coming
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Anonymous | 1:32 a.m. April 24, 2008
This just proves that the world is full of wackos. Someone ought to lock her up
and throw away the key.
Not Surprised | 1:45 a.m. April 24, 2008
The only surprise here is that the Texas authorities didn't figure this out
before the raids began. Or did they, but it just gave them the excuse that they
had been waiting for to show their distaste for others that are
"different" than they are. This sounds like Independence or Nauvoo
all over again.
Graham Brown | 2:19 a.m. April 24, 2008
Now I do not agree with the FLDS way of life or beliefs, but I find it very
disturbing indeed that a State authority can charge into a community on a false
pretense, such as these calls from Sarah, and take away children with armoured
cars and machine guns. And then justify it by saying that evidence was found
after the raid.
Does it mean that anyone who dresses differently, or has different beliefs can be treated the same way. What about the abuse of these children caused by their being stolen away from the families they have known.
Who is next - another Waco?
Does it mean that anyone who dresses differently, or has different beliefs can be treated the same way. What about the abuse of these children caused by their being stolen away from the families they have known.
Who is next - another Waco?
Comments continue below
Star SixtyNine | 4:14 a.m. April 24, 2008
I worry now the egg on the CPS' face will cause them to persecute to try
and justify their actions instead of prosecute to enforce the law and truly
protect the children.
If they were so sure the children were in danger from pedophiles (and I do belive they were)why did they wait so long to take action? And why wait for such a flimsy excuse as a phone call? Nightline and John Stossel, or many police departments use sting operations to catch pedophiles and they catch so many it's like shooting fish in a bucket. Surely they could have done something more legal and effective.
I hope Rozita Swinton gets both the help and punishment she deserves.
If they were so sure the children were in danger from pedophiles (and I do belive they were)why did they wait so long to take action? And why wait for such a flimsy excuse as a phone call? Nightline and John Stossel, or many police departments use sting operations to catch pedophiles and they catch so many it's like shooting fish in a bucket. Surely they could have done something more legal and effective.
I hope Rozita Swinton gets both the help and punishment she deserves.
Legal Beagle | 4:50 a.m. April 24, 2008
Well, I hate to say told you so, but.... From the beginning I focused on the
legally insufficient basis for the original search warrant of the ranch, i.e.
one anonymous phone call, with no apparent effort made by TX authorities to
corroborrate the complainant's allegations. We knew within hours that Mr.
Barlow was never in TX since 1977, and now authorities are admitting they had
the cell phone number the anonymous call came from but did not request a
subpoena to obtain the caller's identity and location (which can be done in
minutes with an Exigent Circumstance subpoena, a service provided by ALL cell
and land line phone companies. Had TX researched the phone number, they would
have identified Swinton and known she did not call from the ranch. Where's
the probable cause for the search then? Considering TX did NOTHING to verify
the anonymous call or the location of the caller and the accused, it is legally
problematic to now claim the search warrant was obtained in good faith and that
CPS did what it did also in good faith. The ease with which TX authorities
obtained and executed a search warrant should concern people of all faiths.
Mormon | 5:41 a.m. April 24, 2008
How is it possible that a premier anti-poligamy crusader like Flora Jessop could
talk for 40 hours with this gentile woman and not detect the hoax. Are the FLDS
apostates and self-promoting activists so blinded by their seething hatred that
they can't see straight?
Julie | 5:44 a.m. April 24, 2008
"We are still examining evidence that was seized from her residence and do
not expect that investigation to be completed for a while..."
Why the reticence? Is this on orders from the governor?
Why the reticence? Is this on orders from the governor?
astonished | 6:01 a.m. April 24, 2008
How is it possible that this sick woman who had already charges for hoax calls
was not monitored? And most important, why no official apologize was made to
Dale Barlow and all of the FLDS Community?
ok | 6:03 a.m. April 24, 2008
We have got to end the practice that allows raids on people based on false
calls. This story makes me sick. For anyone ready to jump on the bandwagon,
please tell me who is next? If your neighbor doesn't like you and calls the
CPS to come to your house and they find dirty dishes in the sink, arrest you for
neglect, you probably would feel the same way. Where is their evidence? Who was
abused, when, and by whom?
CA | 6:35 a.m. April 24, 2008
This woman is obviously greatly troubled. I hope she can get the help she needs.
At least something good came from her fake calls-the busting up of the FLDS
compound.
Sure | 6:37 a.m. April 24, 2008
Multiple personality is the new excuse for evading responsibility for self.
Even in the case of "Sybil," it was found the therapist gave/fed Sybil
her memories and why "recovered memories" rings false even by
psychological standards.
Ironic | 7:09 a.m. April 24, 2008
How ironic that the whole FLDS culture of brainwashing and child abuse could be
unravelling because of a hoax call made by an obviously mentally disturbed young
lady not even remotely connected to the FLDS.
Open your eyes. | 7:09 a.m. April 24, 2008
Yet people continue to support the actions of the Texas authorities?
They outright lied to us. They said, "well we can't find 'Sarah' but she is probably here, they make it difficult to know whom they actually are." When the sheriff said that he knew he was lying, he knew that there was no Sarah. When they went in on this raid , they knew they were acting on unfactual information. They knew that she never existed, it was all a rouse to trick you fools into supporting this action.
There has been no evidence, that is how America works. The only evidence comes from the testimony of disgruntled former FLDS members. Perhaps if the only knowledge you had of mainstream mormons was from your preacher and hate groups that attack the church, then you would think that we are some sort of cult, some sort of evil church whose members need rescue. Members who are brain washed, etc. Give me a break, open you eyes!
Stop excusing the actions of the Texas authorities upon emotionally charged hearsay. Indeed if you call yourself anything which resembles American, you cannot support this illegal raid.
They outright lied to us. They said, "well we can't find 'Sarah' but she is probably here, they make it difficult to know whom they actually are." When the sheriff said that he knew he was lying, he knew that there was no Sarah. When they went in on this raid , they knew they were acting on unfactual information. They knew that she never existed, it was all a rouse to trick you fools into supporting this action.
There has been no evidence, that is how America works. The only evidence comes from the testimony of disgruntled former FLDS members. Perhaps if the only knowledge you had of mainstream mormons was from your preacher and hate groups that attack the church, then you would think that we are some sort of cult, some sort of evil church whose members need rescue. Members who are brain washed, etc. Give me a break, open you eyes!
Stop excusing the actions of the Texas authorities upon emotionally charged hearsay. Indeed if you call yourself anything which resembles American, you cannot support this illegal raid.
Story changed | 7:30 a.m. April 24, 2008
You don't hear much about the spy on the inside for the past four years.
What happened to that story? They'd better come up with something to
corroborate Sarah's false alarm.
Mary | 7:30 a.m. April 24, 2008
I agree with all of you. Let's not investigate calls that CPS gets about
an abused child, until that child is found dead in an alley somewhere. And
let's not remove children from homes where evidence is found of young
teenagers having babies, because the initial call was a hoax. Let's turn
our eyes away from evidence of abuse because a mentally disturbed woman made a
bunch of bogus calls. I agree, children don't need protection. The FLDS
community needs to be allowed to continue marrying off their teenagers and
committing other crimes for the sake of their right to practice their religion.
I fully agree with ya all. Let's storm the State and free all of the
children, to return to the compound and continue being used as breeders.
(And YES, I'm being TOTALLY sarcastic!!!!)
(And YES, I'm being TOTALLY sarcastic!!!!)
Illiterate | 7:34 a.m. April 24, 2008
Do any of you bother to read the whole articles, or do you just read the
headlines and start spewing your already preconceived personal biases?
""That it was triggered by a call that appears to be a hoax does not affect the cases concerning the safety of the children," said Susan Hays, a Dallas attorney. "It might affect the criminal cases, but not the civil cases concerning the custody and safety of the children.""
It's scary how many people are so clueless about the actual laws of this country. It's even more scary that so many clueless people are called to serve as jurors.
CIVIL and CRIMINAL Courts operate under two entirely different sets of rules.
Removing abused children from a home is a CIVIL action.
Sending someone to prison for child abuse is a CRIMINAL action.
""That it was triggered by a call that appears to be a hoax does not affect the cases concerning the safety of the children," said Susan Hays, a Dallas attorney. "It might affect the criminal cases, but not the civil cases concerning the custody and safety of the children.""
It's scary how many people are so clueless about the actual laws of this country. It's even more scary that so many clueless people are called to serve as jurors.
CIVIL and CRIMINAL Courts operate under two entirely different sets of rules.
Removing abused children from a home is a CIVIL action.
Sending someone to prison for child abuse is a CRIMINAL action.
Milo P Otis | 7:35 a.m. April 24, 2008
Rozita Swinton if found guilty, needs to be put away for a good long time.
Doubt that a staged, quivering chin (Jimmy Swaggart)would show up at her
hearing.
These kids belong with their parents. Those that are abused will say so and have every right to be placed with a relative first not FLDS then a foster home. They should be the first to in a hearing to determine their living arangements.
These kids belong with their parents. Those that are abused will say so and have every right to be placed with a relative first not FLDS then a foster home. They should be the first to in a hearing to determine their living arangements.
Concerned | 7:40 a.m. April 24, 2008
If a hoax call can instigate taking a whole groups children away (guilty until
proven innocent), all their records seized, their temple doors broken down and
desecrated, whose to stop this happening from any other religious society? Odds
are the was some abuse going on there in the TX compound, but certainly not
every man and woman was guilt of the abuse. Let's take all their kids
anyway. Never mind that the call we used as justification was a hoax. We'll
have evidence ex post facto.
Imagine this: A call to Utah state Authorities saying "Help I was molested in the Salt Lake Temple of the LDS church and I'm only 12!" Using the same justification the TX authorities are, they could break down the doors of every LDS temple in the country, take all LDS kids away from their families and put them in terrible foster homes, refuse communications between families, seize all church records, and otherwise persecute all LDS members of the church like the people in TX. They're using the bigamy issue to get social justification for all of their other unconstitutional, inhumane acts. And society thinks its OK becuase they practice polygamy.
Imagine this: A call to Utah state Authorities saying "Help I was molested in the Salt Lake Temple of the LDS church and I'm only 12!" Using the same justification the TX authorities are, they could break down the doors of every LDS temple in the country, take all LDS kids away from their families and put them in terrible foster homes, refuse communications between families, seize all church records, and otherwise persecute all LDS members of the church like the people in TX. They're using the bigamy issue to get social justification for all of their other unconstitutional, inhumane acts. And society thinks its OK becuase they practice polygamy.
Think A Little | 7:43 a.m. April 24, 2008
If you're weaving down the street and a police office pulls you over for
suspected DUI and then notice a bag of pot sitting on your seat, you can still
be arrested for possession of drugs, even if your breathalizer test proves that
you weren't drunk.
Police only need probable cause to investigate a crime.
For all those saying the police have no authority to investigate based on an anonymous call, you better hope that your home is never broken into, or you're never in an accident, or never have anything happen to you, where you have to call 9-1-1 to request assistance through an anonymous call.
Grow a brain or start using the one you have.
Police only need probable cause to investigate a crime.
For all those saying the police have no authority to investigate based on an anonymous call, you better hope that your home is never broken into, or you're never in an accident, or never have anything happen to you, where you have to call 9-1-1 to request assistance through an anonymous call.
Grow a brain or start using the one you have.
I still support texas | 7:50 a.m. April 24, 2008
You people fail to realize they had probable cause to go in - hoax or not. They
have been working on this for years. The hoax will probably affect the criminal
aspect of it.
I've done enough research on FLDS. Wish some of you would as well.
I hope the women and children get out of this crazy way of life. I could care less of what they believe. However, they still worship Warren Jeff's and his twisted views. I wish they could see that his ways are WRONG.
I've done enough research on FLDS. Wish some of you would as well.
I hope the women and children get out of this crazy way of life. I could care less of what they believe. However, they still worship Warren Jeff's and his twisted views. I wish they could see that his ways are WRONG.
mary | 7:59 a.m. April 24, 2008
Child abuse should be investigates. But you don't take every kids in the
neighborhood, just because one guy is abusing one kid.
I hope the lawyers ask that EVERY 12 yr old in Texas is tested for pregnancy, and those that are found to be expecting, have every kid in their neighborhood/church/school removed while it is being 'investigated'.
I hope the lawyers ask that EVERY 12 yr old in Texas is tested for pregnancy, and those that are found to be expecting, have every kid in their neighborhood/church/school removed while it is being 'investigated'.
What? | 7:59 a.m. April 24, 2008
I think most of the posts on this topic are from FLDS people who want us to
think the general population is up in arms about the YFZ ranch raid. CPS is
required to investigate allegations of abuse. When investigating an allegation
at the YFZ ranch, they uncovered lots of evidence of what appears to be systemic
abuse. The fact that the calls from "Sarah" may have been a hoax does
nothing to change the evidence they later found at the ranch. "Not
Surprises" said "this sounds like Independence or Nauvoo all over
again." Get real! Where are the rapes and murders? CPS is going to great
pains to protect the FLDS kids from abuse and also protect them from culture
shock. I know what I'm talking about: I am 1. A parent who had an
allegation made about our daughter that CPS found to be false; 2. A
"retired" Texas foster parent who had a total of 12 foster children;
and 3. a Texas attorney who has practiced in Dallas County family and juvenile
courts. I'm also mainstream LDS.
Re: Concerned | 8:04 a.m. April 24, 2008
You're assuming that police are so clueless that they couldn't
distinguish an obvious hoax call.
Your "Help" story is hillarious. You have such a wild imagination, you should consider a career as a science fiction writer.
Sounds like you're okay with a little abuse of the kids, just as long as it's not too widespread. As long as it's not your kid, who cares.
Your "Help" story is hillarious. You have such a wild imagination, you should consider a career as a science fiction writer.
Sounds like you're okay with a little abuse of the kids, just as long as it's not too widespread. As long as it's not your kid, who cares.
legal beagle | 8:05 a.m. April 24, 2008
C'mon Mary, no one supports what the FLDS were doing on that ranch, so your
sarcastic diatribe was unnecessary. IF the sheriff and CPS had not already
designed their raid plans for this ranch years before; and IF the local
evangelist townsfolk had not already sought for some legal means for ridding
themselves of the FLDS ranch; and IF the sheriff's insider informant had
provided information about abuse on the ranch at any point before the raid
(which she didn't); and IF you believe law enforcement and CPS should do
nothing to verify any of the information received in anonymous calls BEFORE they
raid private religious property and remove 400+ children from their mothers,
then MAYBE officials didn't overreact. I mean really, how hard was it for
CNN to call Barlow's probation officer to learn that he was in AZ rather
than TX when the alleged abuse occurred? Why couldn't the sheriff's
make that call. I know from experience that complex raids involving multiple
agencies, in best-case scenarios, take many hours, usually days, to prepare. In
that time, no one thought to call AZ about Barlow's location? One call
would have halted raid preparation. They wanted to go in anyway.
p-t-max | 8:12 a.m. April 24, 2008
Okay, let me make sure I understand.
In a criminal action, Constitution prohibitions, such as the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments are applicable and must be observed by authorities.
In a civil action, Constitutional protections don't apply? The First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments go away, and the authorities can seize your property, and your children without any more than suspicion of child abuse, even if based on false information?
That's insane.
In a criminal action, Constitution prohibitions, such as the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments are applicable and must be observed by authorities.
In a civil action, Constitutional protections don't apply? The First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments go away, and the authorities can seize your property, and your children without any more than suspicion of child abuse, even if based on false information?
That's insane.
Frank | 8:17 a.m. April 24, 2008
"Concerned" dont worry about an incident like that happening to anyone
else. Unless all LDS families move into one temple then yes, it could. The
FLDS were living on one ranch, think of it as if they were all living in one
house. Thats why legaly the cops only needed one search warrant, because there
was only one owner of the entire private property.
If you get a report of child abuse from a house do you remove all the children from the house or just look for the one child and leave the rest of the children with the abusive parents??
If you think you should remove all the children then thats what the cops did, it just so happened there were more than 400 children in this one "house" or property. That is the FLDS's fault, not the cops.
Try that with any other religion where people live in their own houses and you would need sperate probably cause, a hearing, and a search warrent for every single house. Not as easy.
If you get a report of child abuse from a house do you remove all the children from the house or just look for the one child and leave the rest of the children with the abusive parents??
If you think you should remove all the children then thats what the cops did, it just so happened there were more than 400 children in this one "house" or property. That is the FLDS's fault, not the cops.
Try that with any other religion where people live in their own houses and you would need sperate probably cause, a hearing, and a search warrent for every single house. Not as easy.
Matthew | 8:18 a.m. April 24, 2008
To Mary:
What evidence?!?!?!
To Think A Little:
A 911 call isn't anonymous, the first thing they ask is what's your emergency. The second thing is what's your name. I've often been frustrated when I've called the 911 that they spend so much time finding out who is calling. You need to start using YOUR brain instead of blindly supporting your initial emotional response (likely based on bigotry) with such absolute nonsense.
I'm following this story closely and and no evidence (i.e. something like the hypothetical bag of pot) seems to be present. All is based just on suspicions and rumours and hearsay accusations. The only reason the Texas Authorities have handled this in this way is that these people practice a unusual religion. That is UNAMERICAN!
What evidence?!?!?!
To Think A Little:
A 911 call isn't anonymous, the first thing they ask is what's your emergency. The second thing is what's your name. I've often been frustrated when I've called the 911 that they spend so much time finding out who is calling. You need to start using YOUR brain instead of blindly supporting your initial emotional response (likely based on bigotry) with such absolute nonsense.
I'm following this story closely and and no evidence (i.e. something like the hypothetical bag of pot) seems to be present. All is based just on suspicions and rumours and hearsay accusations. The only reason the Texas Authorities have handled this in this way is that these people practice a unusual religion. That is UNAMERICAN!
michaelh | 8:22 a.m. April 24, 2008
So we are now told that we only have constitutional protections in CRIMINAL
matters no CIVIL matters? Child Protective Services needs to be abandoned
IMMEDIATELY!!! The power of a few wacked out hyper bitter busybodies who think
that they OWN OUR CHILDREN should NOT be tolerated by ANY DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY!!!
We must rise up and IMMEDIATELY DEMAND the cessation of all DCFS activities
IMMEDIATELY!! OUR CHILDREN ARE IN DANGER!!!
ScottAZ | 8:26 a.m. April 24, 2008
I think there are two issues here. The rule of law and the ethical compass.
Was the rule of law followed? Do the ends justify the means? From what I
gather here is that most if not all people on this board oppose the practices of
the FLDS, but also are very concerened with the violation of individual rights
and abuse of power. Are there abuse victims within the FLDS? I don't
think there is any doubt. Like the article states, there may be (most likely
are) problems with the criminal cases, but the civil cases will be legal.
Another phone call | 8:27 a.m. April 24, 2008
Perhaps someone should place a phone call to Texas police about their being
drugs in South Central LA or Houston? I bet there are some illicit drugs that
are being consumed and distributed there? The ends would justify the means
there too right?
I am too greatly disturbed by the lack of probable cause that TX seemed to have when raiding the FLDS compound. I can only hope that there is information that isn't being shared at the momment or that Texas gets the crap kicked out of them by the apellate courts. This stuff truly makes me sad to realize we STILL live in a society that can opress individuals for POSSIBLE the only reason that they are different.
I am too greatly disturbed by the lack of probable cause that TX seemed to have when raiding the FLDS compound. I can only hope that there is information that isn't being shared at the momment or that Texas gets the crap kicked out of them by the apellate courts. This stuff truly makes me sad to realize we STILL live in a society that can opress individuals for POSSIBLE the only reason that they are different.
Re: Think a Litte | 8:27 a.m. April 24, 2008
"Police only need probable cause to investigate a crime."
And apparently, that's all they need to enter your property, take your children, and force you to spend thousands of dollars in order to get them back, if at all.
All without filing a single criminal charge.
How is this practice legal or Constitutional?
Forget legal, how is this practice even moral?
And apparently, that's all they need to enter your property, take your children, and force you to spend thousands of dollars in order to get them back, if at all.
All without filing a single criminal charge.
How is this practice legal or Constitutional?
Forget legal, how is this practice even moral?
Idaho attorney | 8:31 a.m. April 24, 2008
To Think a Little:
If you call 911 you should give your name. The law is well settled that a police officer cannot detain or search based solely on an anonymous tip.
If you call 911 you should give your name. The law is well settled that a police officer cannot detain or search based solely on an anonymous tip.
Mink | 8:40 a.m. April 24, 2008
Some quotes from local Texas officials in today's San Angelo newspaper:
From First Assistant District Attorney Allison Palmer:
Palmer used the phone calls as the probable cause necessary to secure the search-and-arrest warrant granted by District Judge Barbara Walther.
"Some events have shaken our belief and confidence in that probable cause," Palmer said.
From Tom Vinger, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety:
"If we knew that (she made the March 29-30 phone calls), we would have filed an arrest warrant for her," Vinger said. "People can read in what they want to read."
For days we've read comments on these boards critizing the approach taken by Utah and Arizona in dealing with polygamous groups and lauding the State of Texas. At least Utah and Arizona have actually convicted some of these abusing men. Good luck to Texas in getting any convictions out of this. It's coming out that they had the cell number, knew it was from Colorado and even asked "Sarah" why she was calling on a phone from Colorado. This raid did not occur in a single day. As their probable cause was unravelling, they continued to seize records and take evidence.
From First Assistant District Attorney Allison Palmer:
Palmer used the phone calls as the probable cause necessary to secure the search-and-arrest warrant granted by District Judge Barbara Walther.
"Some events have shaken our belief and confidence in that probable cause," Palmer said.
From Tom Vinger, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety:
"If we knew that (she made the March 29-30 phone calls), we would have filed an arrest warrant for her," Vinger said. "People can read in what they want to read."
For days we've read comments on these boards critizing the approach taken by Utah and Arizona in dealing with polygamous groups and lauding the State of Texas. At least Utah and Arizona have actually convicted some of these abusing men. Good luck to Texas in getting any convictions out of this. It's coming out that they had the cell number, knew it was from Colorado and even asked "Sarah" why she was calling on a phone from Colorado. This raid did not occur in a single day. As their probable cause was unravelling, they continued to seize records and take evidence.
We need to realize... | 9:10 a.m. April 24, 2008
We need to realize that there are limits to behaviour that were previously not
tested within our society. Our society really does NOT believe in freedom of
religion or freedom to teach your kids what you think is best. This is clearly
the "lesson" here. I think these people are goofy (the FLDS), they
are "brainwashed" (but so are we as LDS people, come on, we are!), BUT
until last month we all believed we had the freedom to practice our religion and
raise our children as we see best. That is NOT the case. They came for these
people's children because they did not like what they THOUGHT they were
doing. I can see them coming for us if we teach our children "intelligent
design" or we tell them "man produced pollution" is not the cause
of global warming (yes, it is warmer, on average, but we had NOTHING to do with
it). Who knows what we may NOT be able to do soon. We stood by and let this
happen because these people are not popular, they are weird, "they had it
coming". There but for the grace of God go we...
Mink | 9:17 a.m. April 24, 2008
Some Texas authorities are beginning to state concerns about the criminal case.
The Assistant District Attorney said that recent events have shaken their belief
and confidence in the probable cause for the original search warrant. A
spokesman for Texas DPS has said that if they knew that Swinton was making these
calls, they would have filed an arrest warrant against HER. He went on to say
that we can read into that what we want.
For days, we've heard critism on these boards about the approach taken by Utah and Arizona law enforcement to address this polygamous community, while the Texas approach has been lauded. Well, at least Utah and Arizona have been able to convict key wrongdoers (including Jeffs). Good luck to Texas on getting any criminal convictions.
Don't forget that the raid executed under this warrant took multiple days, during which they were continuing to receive calls from "Sarah". It is evident if you read about the Swinton case, that they were aware that the cell phone she was using had a Colorado number. I think their argument that the original search warrant was executed in good faith is a house of cards, at least for criminal prosecutions.
For days, we've heard critism on these boards about the approach taken by Utah and Arizona law enforcement to address this polygamous community, while the Texas approach has been lauded. Well, at least Utah and Arizona have been able to convict key wrongdoers (including Jeffs). Good luck to Texas on getting any criminal convictions.
Don't forget that the raid executed under this warrant took multiple days, during which they were continuing to receive calls from "Sarah". It is evident if you read about the Swinton case, that they were aware that the cell phone she was using had a Colorado number. I think their argument that the original search warrant was executed in good faith is a house of cards, at least for criminal prosecutions.
DC | 9:19 a.m. April 24, 2008
This will be legally very complicated. If the state had probable cause to go in
for one crime, it's true that evidence of other crimes in plain sight is
admissible even if the original evidence isn't found. But if Texas had
reason to know that the call didn't come from where the caller claimed she
was -- such as a caller ID from Colorado Springs -- then they wouldn't have
had probably cause to begin with and the "plain sight" evidence
isn't admissible. On top of that, so far -- despite a lot of chatter in
these comment sections about 14-year-old pregnant girls -- the "other
crimes" that Texas CPS has actually alleged appear to be 16 and 17 year old
girls who are "spiritually married". Now, if those girls were civilly
married with their parents' permission, there would be no crime in Texas
because Texas law permits marriage at 16. Not what I would want for my
daughter, but legal in Texas. The only reason those girls aren't civilly
married is because Texas law also prohibits polygamy, which means that at bottom
this really is about the FLDS religion, not about protecting children.
Frank | 9:21 a.m. April 24, 2008
Does that mean that anyone who lives an a multi-dwelling property held in common
or by a trustee has fewer due process rights than people who own their property
individually? I think that's worth a legal challenge - all the way up to
the Supreme Court if necessary.
anon. | 9:23 a.m. April 24, 2008
The texas officials have been practically begging for a reason to raid the
Ranch, and here was one that was asking for it. They weren't going to
investigate the call when they wanted so badly to see what was going on in
there.
I think this is abominable. They can't take these children away from all they've ever known. They tore hundreds of families apart. Give them their children back.
I think this is abominable. They can't take these children away from all they've ever known. They tore hundreds of families apart. Give them their children back.
Arizona | 9:29 a.m. April 24, 2008
Sure the FLDS society should have been monitored, especially with their track
record, but it should have been done legally. Based on Swinton's own track
record, she should have at the very least been in counseling and probation
prohibiting her from using a phone--hey judges have ruled sex offenders
can't use the internet in the past, why couldn't something be done
much earlier to stop Swinton's deranged behavior. Legal Beagle, I agree
with you that warrants should have been served much earlier on the phone
records, especially based on the severity of the accusations. And finally, how
does someone call a crisis hotline and speak for more than 40 hours without
being found. Had this been a real person in need of help (not that Swinton
doesn't need help), she could have very well been dead before anyone got
around to helping her.
To: Idaho attorney | 9:30 a.m. April 24, 2008
They cannot detain or search based solely on an anonymous tip, but, if they
discover evidence of a possible crime while they are investigating an anonymous
tip, they can certainly detain and, if necessary, get a search warrant to
continue searching.
David | 9:38 a.m. April 24, 2008
My government has become too powerful!!!
Jeremy Parker | 9:40 a.m. April 24, 2008
How did this lady con a flds expert for 40 hours? She obviously doesn't
have experience in the community and yet convinced someone who does for 40
hours? Was she reading from a script?
This woman was put up to it plain and simple.
This woman was put up to it plain and simple.
Matt in Tucson | 9:42 a.m. April 24, 2008
I am frustrated with this lack of following the constitution. I am starting a
blog called parent-rights. It will be on blogger. I will post letters I have
sent to my representatives, and other information relating to family rights.
Child Brides | 9:45 a.m. April 24, 2008
When Rod Parker, attorney for the FLDS church, was asked why FLDS men marry
teenage girls, he responded:
"I know we have a lot of rumor and misinformation about it," he said. "Not all of the marriages are to old men."
Parker said the matter is complex and goes back more than a hundred years. "These people live in the 19th century," he said.
WOW!
Their own attorney admits to teenage marriages, and then justifies it by saying that NOT ALL of the teenage marriages are to old men (meaning, of course, that many of them are) and that the people live in the 19th century (meaning the people don't see anything wrong with teenage marriages because they don't live by the laws and norms of today).
It's obvious that the FLDS have no intention of changing their practices; that child abuse in the form of forced marriages of underage girls is a common practice among them.
Give the children back! As long as the FLDS don't believe they're doing anything wrong, the "outsiders" have no reason to interfer.
"I know we have a lot of rumor and misinformation about it," he said. "Not all of the marriages are to old men."
Parker said the matter is complex and goes back more than a hundred years. "These people live in the 19th century," he said.
WOW!
Their own attorney admits to teenage marriages, and then justifies it by saying that NOT ALL of the teenage marriages are to old men (meaning, of course, that many of them are) and that the people live in the 19th century (meaning the people don't see anything wrong with teenage marriages because they don't live by the laws and norms of today).
It's obvious that the FLDS have no intention of changing their practices; that child abuse in the form of forced marriages of underage girls is a common practice among them.
Give the children back! As long as the FLDS don't believe they're doing anything wrong, the "outsiders" have no reason to interfer.
Arizona | 9:46 a.m. April 24, 2008
Think a little and I still support Texas, no one is saying that Swinton's
phone call shouldn't have been followed up on. In fact, if you read Legal
Beagle's comments you'll see that it doesn't take a whole lot of
effort to at least corroborate some of the facts. With all the manpower put
into the raid, why couldn't a few people be assigned the job of attempting
to verify some details before storming in? I am all for responding quickly when
someone calls on such charges, but a warrant on the phone records could have
easily supplied enough information to show the call was a hoax in the time
between the phone calls and the raid. That having been said, I think the
FLDS's track record is reprehensible, but let's at least investigate
them on legal grounds. How would you like it if you had an "enemy"
that would keep calling the police and every time he did the police would come
to your house and seize all your papers, computers, pictures, etc.? Swinton has
made hundreds of calls and they still haven't filed charges.
To: all concerned people | 9:48 a.m. April 24, 2008
You folks are confusing a fenced compound with guard towers with your local LDS
neighborhood. They are not the same thing. Stop using a raid on an illegal
prison under the guise of religion as a trumpet warning of similar actions in
your little LDS world. Its embarrassing how naive you all are.
BK | 9:54 a.m. April 24, 2008
The FLDS are nuts but I feel bad for them. Some psycho calls CPS on them. They
loose their kids. There is a big media blitz on the story. This makes real
Mormons look like a cult all over the world. If you really want to destroy
someone�s life, then call CPS on them.
Ekim | 9:57 a.m. April 24, 2008
Go Texas.
It's nice to see someone who has finally gotten up the guts to do something about a terrible situation for kids.
Shame on all the sick wackos on here who are apologists for the sexual abuse going on in Texas, Utah, Arizona and heaven only knows where else.
It's nice to see someone who has finally gotten up the guts to do something about a terrible situation for kids.
Shame on all the sick wackos on here who are apologists for the sexual abuse going on in Texas, Utah, Arizona and heaven only knows where else.
Rattler | 10:08 a.m. April 24, 2008
I think their are some other polygamist groups in Texas like the Pentecostals,
who some are known to practice polygamy. Perhaps they should pay them a visit as
well.
It Looks like some Texas steers got their horns stuck in the mud on this one. The Texans will all be eating desert snake for breakfast at this rate.
It Looks like some Texas steers got their horns stuck in the mud on this one. The Texans will all be eating desert snake for breakfast at this rate.
Lots of Straw Men | 10:14 a.m. April 24, 2008
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an
opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a
straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles
an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that
position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the
opponent's position). A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical
technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little
or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has
not been refuted.
The real issue here is child abuse within one great big happy family living at the YFZ Ranch, and how many children were abused or at risk of being abused.
The real issue here is child abuse within one great big happy family living at the YFZ Ranch, and how many children were abused or at risk of being abused.
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