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FLDS children being moved into foster homes as DNA testing continues
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Denny Andrews | 12:17 p.m. April 22, 2008
I heard on bbc world service that there's some sort of election thing, a
non flds related news story, also going on in the US somewhere...
Incredulous | 12:17 p.m. April 22, 2008
Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had 421
kids in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This
speaks volumes about the whole debacle down in Texas.
Skeptical | 12:18 p.m. April 22, 2008
>>"I don't know why I should have to do this. I have
documents," said an FLDS man as he left the building.<<
Documents proving what, exactly?? So you have some birth certificates. Considering how often these people give different names and ages to authorities (and how many people in the group have the same name) how do you intend to prove which actual children are named on those documents? You're going to point to them, "That one's mine, that one's mine, that one's mine," and we're just going to believe you? Sorry, you don't get to use whatever 'documents' you have as a free pass to your own Sex Abuse Shopping Center. 'Yeah, I kinda like the looks of that little girl. I think I'll claim her as my daughter, and take her home to play house..."
Documents proving what, exactly?? So you have some birth certificates. Considering how often these people give different names and ages to authorities (and how many people in the group have the same name) how do you intend to prove which actual children are named on those documents? You're going to point to them, "That one's mine, that one's mine, that one's mine," and we're just going to believe you? Sorry, you don't get to use whatever 'documents' you have as a free pass to your own Sex Abuse Shopping Center. 'Yeah, I kinda like the looks of that little girl. I think I'll claim her as my daughter, and take her home to play house..."
Comments continue below
Count | 12:28 p.m. April 22, 2008
If the State of Texas can't count, how will they know when a child goes
missing?
Oh Contrarywise | 12:33 p.m. April 22, 2008
Contrary to (un)poplular belief, the CPS have found/presented NO EVIDENCE that
there is/has been any child sexually or physically abused. They keep saying that
they "believe" that the FLDS culture may be harmful to children and
basing their (CPSs's) "beliefs" on media reports. What gives. Why
haven't we seen ACTUAL PROOF of abuse yet?
from tx (dfw) | 12:50 p.m. April 22, 2008
the reason I believe for the mix up in the number of children were because many
children did not know their birthdays correctly or were not telling how old they
were espically the pregnant teens were at first saying that they were older
therefore not children having children but adults and it has since been
determined that a lot of them are indeed children, so the count rises. just fyi
Archaea Cougarguard | 12:45 p.m. April 22, 2008
Contrarywise: it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to
publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible
evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise demonstrates a fundamental
ignorance of the law.
Re:Incredulous and Count | 12:46 p.m. April 22, 2008
An explanation just for Incredulous and Count, and I am sure other FLDS Schooled
people. The count went up because, believe or not, some of the women lied and
said they were adults and when CPS found this out that raised the child count
from 421 to 437. Not hard to understand. They Lied about their age and
everything else they have told the authorities.
SueM | 12:46 p.m. April 22, 2008
Ummmmmmmmm you are complaining that the Texas doesnt know how many kids there
is...
Doesnt look like the FDLS members knew either
you woul dthink they would know how many children
were living at that ranch and even they didnt say a word go figure.. those people are pumping those kids out so fast that not even they can keep track
Doesnt look like the FDLS members knew either
you woul dthink they would know how many children
were living at that ranch and even they didnt say a word go figure.. those people are pumping those kids out so fast that not even they can keep track
Anonymous | 12:47 p.m. April 22, 2008
"Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had
421 kids in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This
speaks volumes about the whole debacle down in Texas. "
The reason the number of kids changes is not that they don't know how many people are there, but that people previously identified adults are reclassified as children, because they lied about how old they were.
The reason the number of kids changes is not that they don't know how many people are there, but that people previously identified adults are reclassified as children, because they lied about how old they were.
tx res. | 12:48 p.m. April 22, 2008
also on the poster who says no proof of child sex abuse what are pregnant teens
to you and why is leader or former leader jailed?? hum? thats strange
isn't it?
Re: Incredulous | 12:53 p.m. April 22, 2008
Incredulous...it's not that Texas can't count it's that the FLDS
keep lying to them. One day a girl says her name is Ester and she's 19
years old. The next day the same girl says her name is Ruth and she's 16
years old. Consequently, the number of children in custody changes.
The FLDS thought they could simply lie and get away with it. Now that the state is testing them, the FLDS realize the gig is up so they are starting to confess their real ages. Before the women were escorted out of the ranch, every "husband" ordered their 16 year old "wife" to tell authorities they were 18 or older. The FLDS probably thought they would get away with it and their "wives" would be returned. But, Texas realizes an "18" year old girls with two kids doesn't really add up.
I think it's funny the teenage girls with one child say they are 18, and all the teenage girls with two or more kids say they are 19. Why? Because if an 18 year old has two kids (unless they are twins) that means she was at most 16 when she had the first kid.
The FLDS thought they could simply lie and get away with it. Now that the state is testing them, the FLDS realize the gig is up so they are starting to confess their real ages. Before the women were escorted out of the ranch, every "husband" ordered their 16 year old "wife" to tell authorities they were 18 or older. The FLDS probably thought they would get away with it and their "wives" would be returned. But, Texas realizes an "18" year old girls with two kids doesn't really add up.
I think it's funny the teenage girls with one child say they are 18, and all the teenage girls with two or more kids say they are 19. Why? Because if an 18 year old has two kids (unless they are twins) that means she was at most 16 when she had the first kid.
To Skeptical | 12:55 p.m. April 22, 2008
You are not skeptical, you are merely projecting the contents of your own filthy
mind onto people you know nothing about. You, like many others who comment in
these DN forums, have bought the entire package of allegations made by people
with an agenda - people who are having a very difficult time coming up with
anything to prove their allegations of abuse.
Anonymous | 12:56 p.m. April 22, 2008
of course we can believe every word that cps tells us...NOT...
Gena | 12:56 p.m. April 22, 2008
CPS itself stated it didn't have an accurate count because of people in
cots and going to the bathroom, etc when they were trying to count them - uh,
they couldn't just line everybody up??
Yesterday, the report was that an "undisclosed number" of 20-30 girls of disputed age had been proved to be ADULTS.
And they have LAWYERS locked up in there?? That ought to go over really well!
Yesterday, the report was that an "undisclosed number" of 20-30 girls of disputed age had been proved to be ADULTS.
And they have LAWYERS locked up in there?? That ought to go over really well!
In Jail | 1:06 p.m. April 22, 2008
Just thought I would remind those on here feeling sorry for the FLDS and
claiming Texas is picking on this innocent religious group that the
"prophet" of this harmless group of people is behind bars for marrying
an unwilling 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy and forcing her to have sex
with the 19 year old. Jeffs was tried and found guilty by the state of Utah.
Jeffs is known to have been visted the Texas ranch, so what makes you think the
same things he did in Utah didn't happen in Texas?
Leroy G. | 1:00 p.m. April 22, 2008
Really does not matter about the count of the children. What matters is the
TOTAL being held at the Coliseum. If the additional children was a result of
those claiming to be adults then the number of adults would have declined
but--
As of April 21
In yet another FLDS raid-related development, coordinating attorneys, legal aid attorneys and guardians ad litem announced an undisclosed number of 20-30 young women whose adult status had been debated had indeed been determined to be legally adults.
As of April 21
In yet another FLDS raid-related development, coordinating attorneys, legal aid attorneys and guardians ad litem announced an undisclosed number of 20-30 young women whose adult status had been debated had indeed been determined to be legally adults.
outside world | 1:03 p.m. April 22, 2008
The news accounts I read stated that they did 'head counts' previously
and not all children were evidently present at the time each count was
taken---they were elsewhere than that particular room or area. I have read
nothing stated that they moved ages down from adult to child. How exactly are
they supposedly proving someone is 16 and not 17? That's not what the
statements from CPS said in news accounts that I read.
To Contrarywise | 1:08 p.m. April 22, 2008
'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict
afterwards.'
Evidence, charges, trial, verdict, sentence.
Texas is still working on evidence.
Your call for ACTUAL PROOF of abuse is a bit premature. Texas hasn't even identified the possible victims and perpetrators yet.
Until Texas identifies a specific underage girl who was spiritually married and sexually abused by a specific adult man, there will be no ACTUAL PROOF of abuse.
Evidence, charges, trial, verdict, sentence.
Texas is still working on evidence.
Your call for ACTUAL PROOF of abuse is a bit premature. Texas hasn't even identified the possible victims and perpetrators yet.
Until Texas identifies a specific underage girl who was spiritually married and sexually abused by a specific adult man, there will be no ACTUAL PROOF of abuse.
E Plurus Unum | 1:07 p.m. April 22, 2008
In response to Archaea Cougarguard: "it is not the responsibility of the
Texas legal system to publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a
plethora of credible evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise
demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the law."
You clearly have never dealt with Texas CPS before! CPS' definition of evidence is rather vague and broad. They can enter 'evidence' that would be and is laughed out of any other court room. This is why CPS needs to forced to follow due process - it is nearly impossible for outside reviewers to figure out what they have done because their difinition of evidence is so broad and vague and the case workers have so much leeway in interpreting said evidence. Why do you think CPS has been so resistent to Sunshine laws?
You clearly have never dealt with Texas CPS before! CPS' definition of evidence is rather vague and broad. They can enter 'evidence' that would be and is laughed out of any other court room. This is why CPS needs to forced to follow due process - it is nearly impossible for outside reviewers to figure out what they have done because their difinition of evidence is so broad and vague and the case workers have so much leeway in interpreting said evidence. Why do you think CPS has been so resistent to Sunshine laws?
Rumors again! | 1:09 p.m. April 22, 2008
So those claiming to be adults were counted as adults??? Believe me if CPS
thought they were children, they were counted as children and not adults.
Also there is this thought-- if you were a young mother about to be separated from your chid, would it not be preferred to be identified as a minor and get to stay with your child?? Even if I was an adult, I would change my story if it meant I could go with my child.
Also there is this thought-- if you were a young mother about to be separated from your chid, would it not be preferred to be identified as a minor and get to stay with your child?? Even if I was an adult, I would change my story if it meant I could go with my child.
To from tx (DFW) | 1:20 p.m. April 22, 2008
Uh, here's a quote from another article here on this website:
"We've been able to get a better count now that we're over here at the coliseum," said Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for the Texas child protective services. "You can imagine with these many people and different locations, it was hard to get an exact count."
Pulliam defended the earlier numbers, saying that it was difficult to get an accurate count.
"You've got mothers with babies in cots, but not everybody's lying down at the exact same time," she said. "Some are in the restroom at times when you're counting. Some people are in the shower. There's a lot of different things going on at the same time."
Soooo, it sounds to me like there's a lot of incompetence going on there. Imagine if they used this system to count children in Elementary School? Using the excuse that "some were in the restroom" uh, yeah, that instills confidence that these people know what they're doing.
"We've been able to get a better count now that we're over here at the coliseum," said Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for the Texas child protective services. "You can imagine with these many people and different locations, it was hard to get an exact count."
Pulliam defended the earlier numbers, saying that it was difficult to get an accurate count.
"You've got mothers with babies in cots, but not everybody's lying down at the exact same time," she said. "Some are in the restroom at times when you're counting. Some people are in the shower. There's a lot of different things going on at the same time."
Soooo, it sounds to me like there's a lot of incompetence going on there. Imagine if they used this system to count children in Elementary School? Using the excuse that "some were in the restroom" uh, yeah, that instills confidence that these people know what they're doing.
Anonymous | 1:22 p.m. April 22, 2008
Anyone here ever been chaperone for a school excursion? How easy is it to keep
track of 25 or 30 kids you don't know? Now imagine there are 400+ kids.
Imagine they all dress similarly, the same style of clothing, often even the
same color of clothing. Imagine the kids all have similar features. Imagine the
children are all closely related because of the plural marriage thing and the
practice of marrying cousins. Imagine you are trying to count them while Sally
and Susie are coming and going from the restroom and doing whatever else was
going on at the Coliseum. Sounds like a difficult task to tell everyone apart
even if there is NOT deliberate misrepresentation of key details. Add to that
the issue of who is or is not an adult and whatever they are saying about that
topic as well.
Sounds to me like CPS is just trying to get everyone processed out of the Coliseum and THEN maybe try to make other arrangements for visitation or placement issues. We are going to be hearing about this story all summer.
Sounds to me like CPS is just trying to get everyone processed out of the Coliseum and THEN maybe try to make other arrangements for visitation or placement issues. We are going to be hearing about this story all summer.
To Oh Contrarywise | 1:23 p.m. April 22, 2008
First of all, Archaea Cougarguard is right, the State has zero obligation, and
honestly, no good reason to tout their evidence to the media. Why, in our day
and age, do we assume that they should have to do that. The judge, and where
appropriate, a jury hear the evidence and decide the case, not the media or the
public at large.
Secondly, what is the statutory definition of sexual abuse in Texas? We are under the paradigmatic view that there must have been forced sexual assault or rape coupled with physical abuse. However, every state has a statute, or statutes defining sexual abuse to include sexual contact with a minor, whether consensual or not. Most commonly we hear the term 'Statutory Rape' used in these instances.
So whether the state shows its evidence to the media or not, there is prima facie evidence in every pregnant girl 16 years of age or younger.
Secondly, what is the statutory definition of sexual abuse in Texas? We are under the paradigmatic view that there must have been forced sexual assault or rape coupled with physical abuse. However, every state has a statute, or statutes defining sexual abuse to include sexual contact with a minor, whether consensual or not. Most commonly we hear the term 'Statutory Rape' used in these instances.
So whether the state shows its evidence to the media or not, there is prima facie evidence in every pregnant girl 16 years of age or younger.
G | 1:30 p.m. April 22, 2008
"it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to publicly
disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible evidence
of systemic child abuse."
George Bush called. He wants them to check for WMDs too.
George Bush called. He wants them to check for WMDs too.
To Rumores again | 1:35 p.m. April 22, 2008
Your argument is flawed. The root of the trouble they are facing is the fact
that under-age girls are being forced to marry and have children. Admiting
outright that you are a child, with children of your own, would have been too
much exposure to liability. Of course they lied about their age. And if a 15
year-old says she is 17 and an adult, CPS may have no reason to believe
otherwise.
Leroy G. | 1:28 p.m. April 22, 2008
Maybe you did not know that DNA testing can not determine age. Looking can not
determine age. Not even CSI can determine age with a body to work with. They can
only determine an age range.
So they were told by their husbands to say they were 18?? A young woman when asked her age , repeats the question as she turns toward her husband and he says "18" ??? How many times have you repeated a question asked of you because you do not understand why someone should ask the question. I am 66 and I have done that innumerable times.
Assuming some of the girls are lying about age, they are not stupid and are not going to change the story because of DNA testing!!! But thy might lie in order to stay with their children. I would!
So they were told by their husbands to say they were 18?? A young woman when asked her age , repeats the question as she turns toward her husband and he says "18" ??? How many times have you repeated a question asked of you because you do not understand why someone should ask the question. I am 66 and I have done that innumerable times.
Assuming some of the girls are lying about age, they are not stupid and are not going to change the story because of DNA testing!!! But thy might lie in order to stay with their children. I would!
To Anonymous | 1:47 p.m. April 22, 2008
It's not misrepresentation. It's incompetence on the part of the State
of Texas.
ok | 1:49 p.m. April 22, 2008
CPS lies not us I know....
Abe | 1:51 p.m. April 22, 2008
If all these "single mothers" are collecting welfare, shouldn't
there be lots of documentation to identify their children?
Is this America? | 1:51 p.m. April 22, 2008
This is a nightmare, you are accused of child endangerment by a hoaxter. The
state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put them up for
adoption.
The saying comes to mind, they came for the Jews, I was silent, they came for the union members I stayed silent. They came finally for me.
Where is the ACLU, Where is the public, where is common sense?
What is becoming of America?
The saying comes to mind, they came for the Jews, I was silent, they came for the union members I stayed silent. They came finally for me.
Where is the ACLU, Where is the public, where is common sense?
What is becoming of America?
ExpertThinker | 1:56 p.m. April 22, 2008
I predicted that the number of children and adults would change when the mothers
were separated from their children. If a girl lied and said that she was over
18, to be able to protect her 'husband', she would lose the right to
be with her children. If she admitted that she was under 18, she would be
allowed to stay with her children. I'm presuming these young mothers have
a stronger maternal instinct, than their desire to be a young mistress. Even if
the girl believes that she will go to hell for leaving the compound, or not
obeying and protecting the men, she would probably choose to be with her
children. Did you really think that she would let them take her children out in
the evil world when she could admit her age and stay with her children.
G | 1:57 p.m. April 22, 2008
I've been following this for a few days. Here's a list of things CPS
has told the media were evidence:
(1) A hoaxed phone call.
(2) A bed found in a temple--no forensic evidence recovered. Expert testimony said that that wasn't unusual and that no "Mormon" group would allow sexual relations in a temple, despite the salacious imaginings of CPS officers.
(3) A rather small percentage (out of hundreds) of teenage women that were or had been pregnant and "looked underage". No proof of age.
(4) Between 20-30 adult women taken and held for a week because they also "looked underage" but weren't. That'll be a lawsuit.
We're supposed to take this all as unquestioned truth from an agency that lacked even the competence to get an accurate count of the number of children they took for the first week. Now they're taking DNA and assigning numbers. They'll probably mess that up too.
(1) A hoaxed phone call.
(2) A bed found in a temple--no forensic evidence recovered. Expert testimony said that that wasn't unusual and that no "Mormon" group would allow sexual relations in a temple, despite the salacious imaginings of CPS officers.
(3) A rather small percentage (out of hundreds) of teenage women that were or had been pregnant and "looked underage". No proof of age.
(4) Between 20-30 adult women taken and held for a week because they also "looked underage" but weren't. That'll be a lawsuit.
We're supposed to take this all as unquestioned truth from an agency that lacked even the competence to get an accurate count of the number of children they took for the first week. Now they're taking DNA and assigning numbers. They'll probably mess that up too.
Cookie | 1:59 p.m. April 22, 2008
The Crayola crayon was invented in 1903.
It has been reported on tv that kind people
brought crayons for the FLDS children.
The children did not know what to do with
the crayons.
Post writers keep harping about Constitutional
Rights. I won first place in a Bill of Rights
essay contest, so I KNOW THAT FOR EVERY FREEDOM
YOU HAVE, THERE IS A CORRESPONDING RESPONSIBILITY.,
Don't children in the 21st Century have a right
to know how to use a crayon?
"Contrarywise", there is a huge picture window
here and it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to see the light.
The FLDS have been given their freedoms for
over 100 years, violated their correspnding
responsibilities, and now must face the consequences.
I don't live in Texas, but even I can see
that Texas sees the light in the big picture
window.
It is the most mind-boggling sociological,
psychological, medical and ECONOMICAL event
in American history dealing with a group
of USA residents. It will be written about in college textbooks. It has nothing to do with
persecution.
SEE THE BIG PICTURE?
Texas will ensure that these children will have
a chance to paint their future with more than
just crayons.
It has been reported on tv that kind people
brought crayons for the FLDS children.
The children did not know what to do with
the crayons.
Post writers keep harping about Constitutional
Rights. I won first place in a Bill of Rights
essay contest, so I KNOW THAT FOR EVERY FREEDOM
YOU HAVE, THERE IS A CORRESPONDING RESPONSIBILITY.,
Don't children in the 21st Century have a right
to know how to use a crayon?
"Contrarywise", there is a huge picture window
here and it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to see the light.
The FLDS have been given their freedoms for
over 100 years, violated their correspnding
responsibilities, and now must face the consequences.
I don't live in Texas, but even I can see
that Texas sees the light in the big picture
window.
It is the most mind-boggling sociological,
psychological, medical and ECONOMICAL event
in American history dealing with a group
of USA residents. It will be written about in college textbooks. It has nothing to do with
persecution.
SEE THE BIG PICTURE?
Texas will ensure that these children will have
a chance to paint their future with more than
just crayons.
Leroy G. | 1:57 p.m. April 22, 2008
If underaged girls are forced to marry and have children that is clearly wrong.
"admitting that you are a child with children of your own would have been too much exposure to liability."
Sure would but not to me. Liability to the Father!! Remember I am a child with children. No liability for me unless later if it is proven that I am indeed an adult and they charge me with a crime.
"admitting that you are a child with children of your own would have been too much exposure to liability."
Sure would but not to me. Liability to the Father!! Remember I am a child with children. No liability for me unless later if it is proven that I am indeed an adult and they charge me with a crime.
Lizzie | 2:02 p.m. April 22, 2008
I don't see that the state is doing anything wrong so far.
My opinion may change as this goes on. But so far so good.
Sorry if you think me heartless...I'm a mommy of 5 myself and love my children more than anything. I am also a religous person. But that doesn't change the fact that we are to obey the laws of the land. So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey the laws or continue to break the laws and go to jail.
As far as laws to stop the whole polygamy lifestyle, I'm not sure how anyone will ever do that. As long as the man and all his girlfriends are happy living together, who says they can't. They aren't legally married.
My opinion may change as this goes on. But so far so good.
Sorry if you think me heartless...I'm a mommy of 5 myself and love my children more than anything. I am also a religous person. But that doesn't change the fact that we are to obey the laws of the land. So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey the laws or continue to break the laws and go to jail.
As far as laws to stop the whole polygamy lifestyle, I'm not sure how anyone will ever do that. As long as the man and all his girlfriends are happy living together, who says they can't. They aren't legally married.
American | 2:14 p.m. April 22, 2008
In almost, if not every state the CPS can remove ..AND KEEP.. children ..
without a warrant..
without evidence ... without a jury ... without a trial!
The "hearings" are not trials ...and.. nearly all "hearings" are held with the public barred.
Records of "hearings" kept from the public and news media AND are often SEALED for YEARS.
There is nothing similar to a fair trial.
***
Please do not sit back and allow total disregard for
our rights, the law, our CONSTITUTION and the freedoms our soldiers are fighting and dying for.
At least you can SPEAK UP and require our Governors, Senators and Representatives to DO WHAT IS RIGHT.
***
Some studies show that more children are abused ... physically, sexually and mentally in foster care than when left with "accused parents".
The cost of close supervision by DEPARTMENT employees is substantially LESS and FAR MORE effective than removal.
Why did The Texas CPS not simply have the men and/or any suspected abusers removed and LET THE CHILDREN STAY where they were happy and comfortable.
Do a search for CaptiveFLDSChildren to learn more about the Texas situation.
without evidence ... without a jury ... without a trial!
The "hearings" are not trials ...and.. nearly all "hearings" are held with the public barred.
Records of "hearings" kept from the public and news media AND are often SEALED for YEARS.
There is nothing similar to a fair trial.
***
Please do not sit back and allow total disregard for
our rights, the law, our CONSTITUTION and the freedoms our soldiers are fighting and dying for.
At least you can SPEAK UP and require our Governors, Senators and Representatives to DO WHAT IS RIGHT.
***
Some studies show that more children are abused ... physically, sexually and mentally in foster care than when left with "accused parents".
The cost of close supervision by DEPARTMENT employees is substantially LESS and FAR MORE effective than removal.
Why did The Texas CPS not simply have the men and/or any suspected abusers removed and LET THE CHILDREN STAY where they were happy and comfortable.
Do a search for CaptiveFLDSChildren to learn more about the Texas situation.
TJHI | 2:18 p.m. April 22, 2008
Watching the breaking up of this abusive cult has been like watching one of the
best movies ever made. Watching the buses take away the kids is heartwarming.
It will give them a fighting chance in life. Utah, Arizona, Colorado, or South
Dakota... How about a sequel.
chemist | 2:27 p.m. April 22, 2008
To American; You are correct in that CPS does not need a jury trial to remove
and keep children. Their goal is to remove endangered children from the
potentially harmful environment. CPS could not simply remove the abusers because
they did not know who was and was not an abuser. In individual family cases CPS
will yank the children out of the home and if there is a nursing child keeping
the mother with the child would not even be considered. The Texas CPS was quite
lenient in letting mothers stay with the children as long as they did. Go Texas,
I will weep for any child returned to the YFZ compound.
Re: Abe | 2:28 p.m. April 22, 2008
You claim that they collect welfare so there should be records. Unfortunately,
they also commit fraud when they lie with their information as they do, hence
the term welfare fraud which is what they actually commit.
Who's Your Dad? | 2:33 p.m. April 22, 2008
I hope they find who the fathers are. I was wonder if the men who appeared on tv
were the only fathers to all those kids in custody? Or are there other men still
hiding? It looks like just a few men in the cult may be fathers to most of the
kids in custody. It looks like there are tons and tons of mothers, with no
husbands hanging around. Interesting and very weird.
elisa c | 2:42 p.m. April 22, 2008
I can't understand, in this child abuse case how the state would allow
these women to be set free to return to this ranch in Texas. How can these women
beleive that allowing your daughters to have sex and marry old men at the age of
13yrs or younger I don't doubt. Is normal. Yea, right that is why their
are living on a compound away from the real world-have children have sex with
older men or within family is not a call from God.
Where's Merrill Jessop? | 2:46 p.m. April 22, 2008
Haven't seen HIM on any national media, now have we? Hmmm...
Agape | 2:47 p.m. April 22, 2008
The world watches!
I'm not an attorney so the legal aspects I leave to the courts. I'm a responsible adult. I'm a woman. As such I listen to the women who have left this cult that tell us the facts as they know it. They have spoken about physical water tortue to babies to keep them quiet and of being "assigned" to men as wives. In slave trading days that was called being on the auction block. Women were assets lsited in slave traders livestock books. Don't these women have a since of wonder or the world and want more education for their children? I've heard these brave boys who were "asked to leave" speak on the talk shows; they cannot speak proper English--they have no language skills.
To the Women of the Warren Jeffs cult (and it is a CULT). Be Brave and Coureagous The World can be a wonderul and exciting place to explore. Do Not Live in Fear. Fear is what dominates you. Overcome it and lead your children into a new world.
I'm not an attorney so the legal aspects I leave to the courts. I'm a responsible adult. I'm a woman. As such I listen to the women who have left this cult that tell us the facts as they know it. They have spoken about physical water tortue to babies to keep them quiet and of being "assigned" to men as wives. In slave trading days that was called being on the auction block. Women were assets lsited in slave traders livestock books. Don't these women have a since of wonder or the world and want more education for their children? I've heard these brave boys who were "asked to leave" speak on the talk shows; they cannot speak proper English--they have no language skills.
To the Women of the Warren Jeffs cult (and it is a CULT). Be Brave and Coureagous The World can be a wonderul and exciting place to explore. Do Not Live in Fear. Fear is what dominates you. Overcome it and lead your children into a new world.
Re: Is this America? | 2:52 p.m. April 22, 2008
"The state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put
them up for adoption."
Your kids are in protective custody only until Texas determines that it's safe to return them to your home.
If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about losing your kids permanately.
Your kids are in protective custody only until Texas determines that it's safe to return them to your home.
If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about losing your kids permanately.
Evidence | 2:58 p.m. April 22, 2008
It's funny, this day in age people thing they are entitled to know the
evidence in a case. Evidence isn't publically released so defendants'
rights to a fair trial are preserved. If all the evidence is released, the
public can form their own opinions on a case before it goes to trial and jurors
would go to a case with a decision already made destroying the defendant's
right to a "fair" trial.
No criminal charges have been filed yet at this point, so any evidence of such isn't being publically disclosed. At this point they are just deciding the fate of the children, using the least amount of evidence necessary. Once criminal charges are pressed we'll get to see all the evidence. Everyone's hunger for evidence will be satisfied and at that point the same people screaming the FLDS were wronged will be demanding the heads of the "husbands."
I find it sadly amusing people on here want the children to go back to the place where the children were abused, denied their agency and raped.
No criminal charges have been filed yet at this point, so any evidence of such isn't being publically disclosed. At this point they are just deciding the fate of the children, using the least amount of evidence necessary. Once criminal charges are pressed we'll get to see all the evidence. Everyone's hunger for evidence will be satisfied and at that point the same people screaming the FLDS were wronged will be demanding the heads of the "husbands."
I find it sadly amusing people on here want the children to go back to the place where the children were abused, denied their agency and raped.
Mink | 3:00 p.m. April 22, 2008
For those interested in what's happening in Texas on all sides of the
argument, please do a search for "genocidewatch". Go to their web
site and read the "What is genocide?" page. Among other useful
information, you will read the following:
"Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide:
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
After reading this web page, explain to me, if you can, how what is happening in Texas doesn't resemble item (e) above. By all means, go after abusers, rescue the abused. But to take all the children of any community and give them to others looks too much like a form of state-sponsored genocide.
"Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide:
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
After reading this web page, explain to me, if you can, how what is happening in Texas doesn't resemble item (e) above. By all means, go after abusers, rescue the abused. But to take all the children of any community and give them to others looks too much like a form of state-sponsored genocide.
Non-Texan | 3:02 p.m. April 22, 2008
Why can't anybody figure out that each of the FLDS children will have the
exact same DNA. It's called inbreading. Are they trying to figure out
which ones don't belong? The only abuse that I can see is making the
children live in Texas.
Re: Re: Is this America? | 3:14 p.m. April 22, 2008
"If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to
marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you
don't have to worry about losing your kids pemanently."
Sorry buddy, you're not paying attention. Texas CPS argues that all children must be removed because they are being taught to accept the sect's practices. So even if you don't commit abuse, if you believe that the marital practices of the FLDS are condoned by God and teach that to your children, you are participating in "systemic abuse". The argument is that what they believe is abusive. That is why they didn't just take the pregnant teens into custody. Doesn't it trouble you at all that people can lose their children for what they believe, not just what they do? Many children in state custody are from a legally married couple that have not directly participated in underage marriage. But because they believe the tenets of the FLDS religion, they lost their kids. To quote the original poster - Is this America?
Legal scholars from around the country are beginning to speak - it doesn't look good for Texas.
Sorry buddy, you're not paying attention. Texas CPS argues that all children must be removed because they are being taught to accept the sect's practices. So even if you don't commit abuse, if you believe that the marital practices of the FLDS are condoned by God and teach that to your children, you are participating in "systemic abuse". The argument is that what they believe is abusive. That is why they didn't just take the pregnant teens into custody. Doesn't it trouble you at all that people can lose their children for what they believe, not just what they do? Many children in state custody are from a legally married couple that have not directly participated in underage marriage. But because they believe the tenets of the FLDS religion, they lost their kids. To quote the original poster - Is this America?
Legal scholars from around the country are beginning to speak - it doesn't look good for Texas.
Mother | 3:21 p.m. April 22, 2008
I can't image what an FLDS mother is going through. What will Texas say to
a mother that has 4 kids all under the age of 8 or 9? I don't understand
why those mothers can't take their kids that have not been married and
simply leave. Is this a case where one teen bride equals loss of every child in
the compound? What a mess? Will the mothers ever be able to reunite with their
kids? CPS seems to be quick to get those kids out of their
parent�s hands. I guess I don't understand the law or
the logic.
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Children from the FLDS Church are transported from the San Angelo Coliseum in San Angelo, Texas, Tuesday to various parts of the state of Texas after 51st District Judge Barbara Walther signed an order to place the children in foster care facilities.
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