FLDS children being moved into foster homes as DNA testing continues


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  • ROSE
    April 27, 2008 8:36 p.m.

    Rhe was absolutely correct. I was horrified at children being torn from their parents. Then I read Carolyn Jessup's book, "Escape" and applaud that Texas is handling this mess ending years of abuse and corruption. If a woman wants her children, let her fight for them and prove they are worthy of raising those children in a non-abusive loving environment. How could loving mothers let their teen sons be dumped on an interstate and told they can not come home (the lost boys). For shame on those mothers who let their teen age daughters marry men 30, 40 years older than themselves to add to their family's "political" importance.

  • 5th Ammendment
    April 25, 2008 10:58 p.m.

    Why is nobody talking about the forcible taking of DNA evidence as a violation of the fifth ammendment prohibition against forcible self incrimination? What happened to, "No person...shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."?

  • Hey Home School mom
    April 25, 2008 9:45 a.m.

    If any of the children were hurt or died had CPS left the younger children in the custody of the FLDS, you would be the first to scream that ALL the children especially the most helpless nursing babies should have been removed. You can't have it both ways. In ANY other child abuse case, the children are ALL removed and the mothers may not have ANY contact. This is preferential treatment that neither you nor I would have if the tables were turned on us. Again, this is preferential treatment that as individuals you or I WOULD NOT have.
    You also forgot to add how readily those same mothers were to abandon their excess sons. Funny how many mothers are NOT returning to the ranch but instead going to safe houses. My how the tune is changing with only 7 returning to the FLDS YFZ ranch.

  • Home school mom
    April 24, 2008 9:33 a.m.

    Why on earth didn't CPS just take the girls over, say, ten and leave the rest of the children with their mothers? What? Going by the book? It's child abuse, pure and simple, to seperate small children, much less nursing babies, from their moms. Can you imagine the terror of a two-year-old in a strange bed in a strange house? It gives me shivers.

    I am not religious, but I am a mother. The tenets of the wacko FLDS church look too much to me like a way for the alpha males silverbacks in that troop to control their young male rivals and, of course, monopolize the breeding females. However, the thought of all those children ripped from the arms of their mothers and sent to live with strangers makes me spitting mad.

  • hmmmm
    April 23, 2008 8:49 p.m.

    The reason the lawyer didnt contest DNA was
    they even came out and said they didnt know who the
    parents were read back through all the new posts

  • Candice
    April 23, 2008 2:30 p.m.

    Thank you Walther, best attorney ever!!!! These kids are better off in these foster homes. Now they will have a chance to have there own ideas, thoughts, plans in life, options, & won't be sheltered by FLDS so-called moms & dads.

  • Mother&ex-abused
    April 23, 2008 12:01 p.m.

    Okay so Mink Genocide is a bit extream dont you think?
    They went in and discovered pregnant teens yes?
    Would that not suggest at the very least willing sex between a minor and a MAN seeing as they turn the boys away as they become teenagers? Can we remember that even if the teen is willing it is still considered statchatory rape. (spelling is wrong i already know that) So are you saying we should just take the pregnant teens and what WAIT for MORE underage girls to become pregnant. The state HAD to take those children or break the law, seeing as any child that could be in danger has to be removed. We have to look at facts and one of those happenes to be thay there are many underage mothers at the ranch. Some sort of sex abuse had to be going on, willingly or forced it is still a crime to have sex with a minor. THIS IS NOT GENOCIDE IT IS THE PROTECTION OF CHILDREN. And i am happy they treated it as one household. It was gated, as if it were one household. We have to protect all of them right?

  • Rhe
    April 23, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    All of you, read Carolyn Jessop's book. You will ALL have a very different view of the FLDS.

  • Looking in
    April 23, 2008 1:58 a.m.

    go to fldstruth.org

  • Truth
    April 23, 2008 1:55 a.m.


  • Maikki
    April 23, 2008 1:29 a.m.

    Why didn't they arrest the men? Where are the men? Instead they've arrested the children.

    Some may argue with that, but think of it. They've torn children away from their mothers, away from their homes, and away from their siblings. They've put them in an environment they don't understand and won't allow them to go home. Sounds like an arrest to me.

    And I can't really blame the mothers. They don't know any other life. It's not as if they had choices because if you don't know that you have choices, you don't have choices.

    Imagine if the government decided to go after the group or religion you belong to?

    And no I'm not pro-polygamy. I've wanted for years for the law to crack down on these men that marry children and rape them. But they haven't cracked down on the men. They punished the victims.

  • A Mom too
    April 23, 2008 1:21 a.m.

    A debacle that's been practiced for too many years. Yes, the women are so brainwashed; that comes from a life of abuse in itself; their life history repeating over and over, they know no better. Let us all pray that this comes to a clear and quick end for everyone concerned. Funny how Texas Social workers jumped on this-How many times have you heard a child had been abused over and over and DPSS turned a blind eye until it was too late? Maybe the rest of the US needs to pay closer attention to how Texas handles these types of complaints.

  • John
    April 23, 2008 12:45 a.m.

    Sadly every denomination in the US has or has had pedophiles and rapists.Here in NYC you have the Hassidic Jewish Cults.Though monogomous they tend to have large familys.567 children.Most are poor.Very insulated from the world.Guess who foots the Bill.Maybe us NY Taxpayers ought to hire this Judge Walthers and CPS.I think not.This is a series of days of Infamy in the history of Texas.We are all at risk our familys our children our grandchildren the longer this cultural religious genocide continues shielded by the color of state law.
    John Cohen

  • AJ
    April 23, 2008 12:40 a.m.

    @FLDS Deception | 9:03 p.m. Apr. 22, 2008

    Just to set the record straight, I am a 37 year old male from the Netherlands with 1 wife and 3 kids. I have never been a part of the FLDS. I have only ever been baptized and confirmed a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also uphold the Church as being the only true Church on the face of this Earth.

    As for my previous post, I was only pointing out the inaccuracy of the following statement: "Go look at their cultist walls of prophets...none the same." As it turns out the 1st 3 on their wall of Presidents are the same as ours.

    Let God judge between you and me. As for me, I forgive you your unfounded accusations.

  • What Law???
    April 23, 2008 12:19 a.m.

    Lawlessness.The Old west.

  • Rob
    April 23, 2008 12:00 a.m.

    FLDS founders rejected God's prophet long ago when they refused to believe Wilford Woodruff when he said God told him it was time for the church to stop practicing polygamy.

    I have never understood how a people who claim they will follow God's prophet no matter how hard it gets, justify not following the prophet when he told them God commanded that the practice of polygamy cease?

    No matter, the story is now once again turning to trying to confuse people about who Mormon's are and what they believe.

    "... in an era full of imposters and fanatics, the Mormons alone are deprived of their rights." Missouri governor Daniel Dunklin

    "Americans have but one native religion [Mormonism] and that one is the sole apparent exception to the American rule of universal toleration". Scribner's Monthly

  • Look In The Bus!!!
    April 22, 2008 11:26 p.m.

    The kids look alive and are waving and are happy, for a change. I saw the one news clip of the kids running with an adult in a yellow vest, they were having fun. These kids are probably not having to much separation anxiety, cause they don't know who to be anxious about being separated from.

  • Roll Call
    April 22, 2008 10:37 p.m.

    Is it just me or do all the children look alike?

  • Just think
    April 22, 2008 10:38 p.m.

    All this started with a few lies told by a want to be prophet. Sound familiar?

  • Leroy G.
    April 22, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    If indeed a significant number of young women have been determined to be actually adults then CPS has been wrong when it said they were not adults. So if they seem to look younger, how can we be sure that any of these are under 17. But just because they have been wrong in some cases does not prove they are wrong in all. There must be at least a few they are right about , they simply better not be wrong about all of them.
    Angie Voss of the CPS testified under oath that there was at least one of these underage pregnant, or with a child in each of the 19 households. Clearly that is going to prove to be false. She probably honestly believed it was true when she testified. I wonder if she does now.

  • Not Surprising
    April 22, 2008 9:43 p.m.

    This is the result of FLDS thumbing their noses at the law for 100 years.

  • Dee
    April 22, 2008 9:37 p.m.

    One of the reason the number is children is changing is the State of Texas is now "encouraging" the women/children to lie. They told the women: If you are over age 17/18 and have a child, they child will be taken away from you and you HAVE to leave them or go to a shelter without them. Either way you will be separated from your baby.... BUT, if you tell us you are UNDERAGE you can stay with your baby. What would you do if you were age 19 with a new baby? Tell your real age and have your nursing baby taken away or lie and say you were 16 so you could stay with it? This is Sophie's Choice.

  • FLDS Deception
    April 22, 2008 9:03 p.m.

    Wow! now FLDS are forcing FLDS kids to post on here. This just keeps getting sicker and stinker!

    TO: AJ & 8:16

    So what's your problem? No one cares about your false hoods.

    Nonetheless the LDS church is the true church and they don't hide behind the skirts of ladies. We have the true line of authority.

  • HappyTeach2008
    April 22, 2008 8:51 p.m.

    sI am not concerned right now about the number of kids there---the main problem is that these people are bleeding "the beast" aka the U>S. Government of millions of dollars with their scams. Also, in addition to these welfare checks, etc., is it true that they have a hand in video gambling, etc.?

  • AJ
    April 22, 2008 8:16 p.m.

    @Who Are The Dads? | 7:33 p.m. Apr. 22, 2008

    The First 3 on their website are held in common with the LDS Church and the AUB, that is:
    - Joseph Smith, Jr.
    - Brigham Young
    - John Taylor

    The next 3 are held in common with the AUB:
    - John W. Woolley
    - Lorin C. Woolley
    - John Y. Barlow

    The last 3 are from after the split with the AUB:
    - Leroy S. Johnson
    - Rulon Jeffs
    - Warren Jeffs

    The organisation of the FLDS church only occurred during the reign of the last 3.

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 8:16 p.m.

    I'am a kid as they call children I never remember sexual abuse never I could say thatmillions of times.

  • Curious
    April 22, 2008 7:41 p.m.

    If all FLDS children are removed from the ranch, what will happen regarding future births? Will Texas CPS organize a monthly pickup?

  • Who Are The Dads?
    April 22, 2008 7:33 p.m.

    I have only seen two men claim to have some connection to these woman. So who and where are the dads? Why don't the FLDS men put their cowardly feet forward so we can see who they are?

    by the way, the LDS religion is nothing like the FLDS cults. No resemblance whatsoever. Go look at their cultist walls of prophets...none the same.

  • to Reggie Washington
    April 22, 2008 7:26 p.m.

    What are you talking about jewish control, I believe the jewish have been persecuted more than any other group of people throughout history.

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 7:23 p.m.

    How has no lawyer contested the testing of these children and their parents?This is a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourselves.

    Uggh, this judge is just plain evil. Is there nothing that we the people can do?

  • Mink
    April 22, 2008 7:17 p.m.

    I guess my first reply to "WHERE ARE THERE DADS?" was sharp enough to be considered offensive. So, I'll try again more calmly.

    The State of Texas has removed all their children which seems to qualify under Article II (e) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Others have called for these raids to be replicated throughout the country.

    Now we have someone calling for the chemical castration of the men, which falls under Article II (d) of the genocide convention; i.e., it is a means to prevent them from having more children. All that's left is calling for the FLDS to be executed.

    This is not a Jim Jones or David Koresh cult that sprang up in the last few years. This is a long-standing culture that is still stuck in the 19th century when arranged marriages and 14-year-old brides were commonplace all over the country. I agree that we are more enlightened now about women's rights and childhood. Deft action should be taken to remove the lunatics and true evildoers and to push them into compliance with the child abuse laws - but these calls for genocidal acts are out of line.

  • To Cookie
    April 22, 2008 7:10 p.m.

    The fact that the children did not use the crayons and coloring books brought to them does not mean that they have never seen or used a crayon.

    Pictures from inside the YFZ ranch are available on the internet and one picture clearly shows a crayon drawing on the wall that was done by a young child. The child drew a dump truck described in his printing as a dump truck driving on the freeway to pick something up.

    Many children find coloring books boring, restrictive, and banal. This is especially true of children who are used to creating their own work.

  • Re: Reggie Washington II
    April 22, 2008 7:02 p.m.

    I ran out of words but I was meaning keep the mothers (who are "brainwashed" --we all are, it is just "dangerous" if it does not suit State agendas--I am not condoning child brides or rape) and children together in the refugee camps and work this out. I did not realize the true trama until I looked up captivefldschildren -- I wept. Regardless of what these perverts did to their girls these children will HATE us for how we allowed this to happen to them-to rip all that is precious to them away and stuff it down their throats to hurt their fathers and mothers. Keep the children and the mothers out of this unless individual evidence is present in this case. Gosanangelo reports that a state district judge urged that before mothers are separated to do a case by case scenario.. Do we think Barbara Walthers will comply????

  • Re: Reggie Washington
    April 22, 2008 6:59 p.m.

    So you have to be white to step up and defend constiutional due process and mother-child bonds? Whites joined the African Americans to help with their civil rights and even were beat up along side their African American brothers in the lines. If other races refuse to fight b/c FLDS is white, then wait until your race has to fight another battle of civil rights in your own backyard regarding this issue... We ALL live under this Consitution--regardless of race and if this is glossed over and allowed this will affect us ALL one way or the other... Prosecute the abuse..keep the babies, toddlers, and young ones in somekind of refugee camp and CPS can de-program them all they want--just take your State Witness Psychiatrist Perry's advice that not keeping them together will be detrimental.. they can't even follow their own expert's advice--what kind of "in the best interest of the child is that"? They just used him for their goals and ditched what they didn't like. Guys, FLDS are not the only ones to have their children hearded off and sold to the State for adoption with no evidence of abuse--just presumption. Google Parentalrights org(anization) and read CPS Corruption.

    April 22, 2008 6:27 p.m.

    Much has been stated about the children and the women, and while I think the state of Texas has proceeded properly, I might have done things a little differently.

    Had I been in charge I would have allowed the women and children to stay at their compound, but would have rounded up all the adult males. We are forgetting that THEY are the PREDATORS.

    Many of them surrounded the "temple" (hurts to call it that) in protest against the authorities, and that would have an EASY point in time to have apprehended all of them on suspicion of statutory rape. Could have been done with a single warrant.

    If the are connected via DNA to underage pregnancies, they should be given stiff prison sentences, or perhaps voluntary chemical castration.

    Nobody talks about the cost of taking care of an intellectually disturbed child who is a product of inbreeding. Chemical castration, although extreme, would send a message that sexual abuse is not tolerated, especially when in deals with an innocent child.

    Girls 13-17 are not emotionally or physically equipped to deal with the rigors of pregnancy or adulthood. Let's not deny these kids their childhood.

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 6:22 p.m.

    The State should have had the correct count of people simply by counting them as they were herded off the Baptist buses the first day. That would not give the accurate count of adults vs. children because the State seems to be determining how old people are.

    The round-up leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Is the State going to go around and nab all the pregnant teens in the schools across the state because they shouldn't be having sex? Based on this debacle, it appears they should.

  • Re: False Ages
    April 22, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    But CPS also increased the count for the adult women. So CPS had many more people there than they originally reported. The ad litems for the children and attorneys for the parents also agreed yesterday that 20-30 individuals previously considered underage by CPS are actually adults.

    The sound bites on CNN or any other media source will not give a complete picture of what is happening - none of the media is doing a thorough unbiased job. If you really want to know what is happening, you need to search numerous sources, and use your own reason to sort through it.

    Consider this - if CPS could not accurately count the children and adults at their "facility", how can ensure the safety of every individual. Under such circumstances a child could go missing and they wouldn't know. It is a serious issue.

  • False Ages
    April 22, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    The Deseret News either conveniently forgot to report it or just didn't do a good job or reporting, but here's a what CNN is reporting:

    "The initial count was rushed, they said, and they have discovered that some females were not 18 or older, as they claimed. Those young women are now being counted as minors."

    So sounds like we had some poor counting, which is understandable given the large number of kids as well as some lying going on.

    Deseret News, tell your reporters to ask better questions and try not to be so biased in your reporting.

  • Mink
    April 22, 2008 5:41 p.m.

    It doesn't have to be all the FLDS children in the world to qualify as a genocidal act. All Tutsis in the world were not subject to Hutu death squads, just those in Rwanda. Does that mean what went on in Rwanda was not genocide? This is essentially all FLDS children in Western Texas.

    Besides, many posters here and elsewhere have called for the same kind of raids in Utah, Arizona, South Dakota, etc. Would that somehow bother you more than this?

    We'll see if the "ranch was a single domicile" argument holds up on lengthy appeal. I doubt it will.

  • Re Genocide
    April 22, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    This is not all of the children belonging to the FLDS. It is only the group that lived on ONE peice of property which makes it "like" one house. Their are hundreds if not thousands of children living elswhere that were not a part of this raid.

    Not genocide... I hope that answers the question you have had.

  • Re: Zoar
    April 22, 2008 5:27 p.m.

    Sure our backyard is messed up, that's not the point. The point is these kids aren't even given the chance to choose what they want in life. Forcing people to live a certain way is archaic and medival. From your comment, sounds like you are in favor of forcing everyone to live certain standards. Sounds like you would prefer a dictatorship or communist government and are in favor of sensorship, forced curfews and standard uniforms for everyone. I certainly hope you aren't complaining on here about the FLDS being denied their "rights" because it sounds as though you aren't in favor of anyone having any rights. How dare people think for themselves!

    Did you not read the mental capacity and decision ability of 16 year olds at the FLDS ranch is just as good as your average 6 year old's living outside of YFZ Ranch. Sorry, I choose the messy backyard and the ability to think for myself.

  • Concerned
    April 22, 2008 5:25 p.m.

    Did anyone notice the comment of Jean Hill, the Democractic candidate for AG on the issue? She said in the St. George Spectrum that she would open a branch of the AGs office in Southern Utah to deal with polygamy issues.

  • Re: Cookie | 4:18
    April 22, 2008 5:25 p.m.

    Yo. I caught part of Dr. Phil, with Jeff's niece. Fondling children is the norm. Not to mention the whole blood atonement thing. Definitely a bunch of robotic stepford wives. Very creepy all the way around.

  • Never
    April 22, 2008 5:23 p.m.

    Child abuse in any form will never be tolerated in mainstream Christian America.

  • Mink
    April 22, 2008 5:09 p.m.

    So far, no one has provided a well-reasoned argument why what Texas is doing cannot be viewed as genocide under Article II (e) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Just a "This isn't genocide..." comment. Where's your argument?

    If the state attempts to stamp out a religious group by taking ALL their children and giving them to others, that fits the definition of genocide under international law. Is this not what Texas CPS is trying to do? If you say no, read their affidavits and their testimony during the hearing.

    And by the way, it is the weakest of arguments to smear anyone who questions the actions of the State of Texas as FLDS or an FLDS sympathizer. I view them as reprobate apostates, but I can't condone the wholesale abandonment of human rights in an effort to "fix the problem". It won't work anyway. They will only become more insular and secretive - Texas has fufilled the prophesies of their leaders. The approach being pursued by Utah and Arizona is far more effective in the long run without torturing human rights.

    Additionally, Dr. Phil is hardly a reliable source.

  • RE: You'll be next
    April 22, 2008 5:06 p.m.

    I see no reason why lds, flds, catholic, jewish, atheist, muslim, baptist, agnostic and all other lawbreakers be arrested for...Breaking the law. Religion is not the issue but law breaking.

  • Do the Right Thing
    April 22, 2008 5:03 p.m.

    Ever heard of the Danites? You can be certain the FLDS have. I hope Texas officials do the right thing. Now that this has been shown to be based upon a hoax, I hope Texas officials have the good sense and strength of character to back off and not take their babies and kids.

  • m
    April 22, 2008 4:58 p.m.

    People - we are forgetting that we do not have all the facts at this point and should not be making judgements about the preceedings until we have all the facts - which may be never. I am ashamed of the know-it-all attitudes I have seen on this forum.

  • Re Denny Andrews | 12:17 p.m.
    April 22, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    "I heard on bbc world service that there's some sort of election thing, a non flds related news story, also going on in the US somewhere... "

    Elections happen all the time, since when is the taking of over 400 children based upon a hoax and then the government refusing to give them back not serious news?

  • Take Responsibility
    April 22, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    Texas officials would show strength of character if they would back off now that the reason for the raid has apparently proven to be a hoax.

    Instead they show themselves afraid to show the world they made a mistake.

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    May God save America if there are very many people as judgemental and vindictive and some of these posts represent.

  • you'll be next
    April 22, 2008 4:32 p.m.

    First they will nab the FLDS lawbreakers.
    Then they will be coming after the LDS lawbreakers.

    In this law-of-the-land neocon society we live in -
    it's just what they do.

  • KantUnderstand
    April 22, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    I don't think most observers can feel what is happening. More is happening than can be comprehended within one concept and hence in one determinate linguistic expression by misguided newscasters.
    I am LDS. I understand (or believe I do) the place plural marriage had in our early history. I realize the Lord giveth and taketh away. Our church fought for its constitutional rights to worship how, where and what we may. I DO NOT want a return of the old days or the old ways BUT..........

    Why are we so quick to condemn. Why are we so quick to disassociate ourselves. Many FLDS are distant family members. (some not do distant).

    If real laws have been broken that is one thing. If children are being hurt that must stop and is despicable.

    Mass arrest seems wrong to me. Children away from their mothers seems wrong to me.

  • Fred
    April 22, 2008 4:23 p.m.

    >>So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey the laws or continue to break the laws and go to jail.

  • Reggie Washington
    April 22, 2008 4:24 p.m.

    I feel bad for you white folks. If you don't fight for your race you have lost everything. I don't want to live in a jewish controled USA. Please begin the war to save the usa now before it's too late.

  • G
    April 22, 2008 4:22 p.m.

    Here's an ironic statement:

    "Evidence isn't publically released so defendants' rights to a fair trial are preserved. If all the evidence is released, the public can form their own opinions on a case before it goes to trial"

    And then, from the same comment:

    "I find it sadly amusing people on here want the children to go back to the place where the children were abused, denied their agency and raped."

    Wow, I'm sure glad they'll have a "fair trial".

  • wrz
    April 22, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    >>Texas will ensure that these children will have
    a chance to paint their future with more than
    just crayons.

  • Cookie
    April 22, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    "Know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
    Did you see Dr.Phil today? The truth is coming out
    about generations of abuse. Tommorrow, the "lost boys" speak out. Go,Texas.

  • Curiouser and curiouser
    April 22, 2008 4:14 p.m.

    Absolutely stamp out sexual abuse everywhere in the United States! Following Texas' educational example, we should take DNA from babies and aborted fetuses of all underage mothers throughout the United States, and order DNA to be taken from all males in their respective social circles. Statutory rape. And while we are at it, I have friends whose son has considered becoming an altar boy. Perhaps we need Texas' finest to ensure their son will have a safe environment wherever he serves at the altar.

  • Shame on our country
    April 22, 2008 4:08 p.m.

    So sad for the parents where is the freedom of choice for the ones who had no part in any of the abuse.
    Welcome to the baptist belt

  • wrz
    April 22, 2008 4:05 p.m.

    >>Just thought I would remind those on here feeling sorry for the FLDS and claiming Texas is picking on this innocent religious group that the "prophet" of this harmless group of people is behind bars for marrying an unwilling 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy

  • Anti-FLDS
    April 22, 2008 4:00 p.m.

    I just wonder how many of these comments are coming from FLDS members trying to brainwash those of us on the outside? Pedophiles should be prosecuted or worse and children should be protected which is what is trying to be done by Texas Child Protective Services. The FLDS is also to blame for the chaos these children are now being subjected to...it is because of their abuse and lies upon lies to cover it up that the children are in this sad situation. God(not Warren!) bless the children and those who have been abused by this CULT!

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    there are other kinds of abuse besides sexual and physical. are you all forgetting about mental abuse???
    Good on texas, Just wish Utah would be so brave.

  • Re: Re: Re: America
    April 22, 2008 3:51 p.m.

    Sorry buddy, but the kids were removed because all of them were potentially at risk of being abused.

    There is no argument that forcing 13-16 y/o girls into spiritual marriages is sexual abuse -- it's statutory rape, period.

    If even one child in a household is being abused, then the state is obligated to remove all of the children. Since there were multiple underage girls living in the compound who were either pregnant or were already mothers, that's evidence of possible abuse.

    Since the FLDS were unwilling to identify which children belonged to which households, Texas was fully within its right and duty to remove all the kids to protect them from potential further abuse.

    The same people who are complaining about Texas overstepping its authority, would be calling for Texas CPS heads to roll if parents in a single family home gave their 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old man so he could sexually abuse her, and CPS allowed the parents to retain custody of the rest of their kids.

  • TO: Zoar
    April 22, 2008 3:50 p.m.

    Wow, I didn't know thong undies were a moral issue. I wonder why you would care what undies somebody has on. I personally support the singing of the "thong-song".

  • NO "is this America"
    April 22, 2008 3:49 p.m.

    This in not just about "what you believe." Is it about what they practice. If you know a person to be committing rape and congratulate her on her marriage, you participate. If you know a woman to want to escape and tattle on her, you are complicit. If you know a boy has been abandoned and also shun him, you are complicit. If you know that a minor is marrying and do nothing, you are complicit.

  • Texas Hold 'Em
    April 22, 2008 3:48 p.m.

    Regardless of where you fall on this, one thing is certain: You break it, you own it. And this is one broken mess that the State of Texas is going to own for a long, long time. As with Iraq, it's easy to raid the ranch. What's not easy is extracting yourself from the havoc you've reeked. And the inability to extract yourself from such handiwork is a costly business indeed.

    My money says we'll be out of Iraq long before the FLDS are out of the Texas court system. And as for Texan's money--I think we all know where that's going, to the tune of hundreds of millions of tax dollars before this whole sordid affair wraps up.

  • Hey Non-Texan
    April 22, 2008 3:42 p.m.

    Clearly you are also a non-scientist. While it will become clear that many people are interrelated, they will not appear to be the same person. My brother is married to my husband's sister and has children. My husband and I have children. My children's Mitochondrial DNA is completely different than my brother's children and my son's y chromosomes are completely different than my nephew's. While this might seem complicated for you to understand, it is fairly simple to someone that works with d.n.a.

  • zoar
    April 22, 2008 3:42 p.m.

    Yes, the brave new world waits. A word of pornography easily assessable to even children, drugs, violence, pre-marital sex, adultery, homosexuality, child abuse; believe it or not the outside world has this too. What else awaits them; let us see rap music, thong underwear, tattoos, piercing, gangs, abortions, campus killings, corrupt politicians, war, and terrorism. We rescue them from their environment and put them right into Sodom and Gomorrah. Maybe we should clean up our own backyard before we try to reform the FLDS.

  • Re: Mink, et al
    April 22, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    This isn't genocide, but hopefully, it will force the FLDS to stop abusing their children.

  • Re: Non-Texan
    April 22, 2008 3:24 p.m.

    "each of the FLDS children will have the exact same DNA"???

    You obviously don't have a clue about how DNA identification works do you? Do a little research and come back when you know what you're talking about.

  • Fenced in
    April 22, 2008 3:23 p.m.

    I have never in my life seen a whole farm of cattle being herded around in this sort of fashion. Despicable!

    The judge is nothing but a loony-toon ready for the loony farm.

    And the LDS church is wise to stay clear of this horrible mess. Too messy!

  • Mother
    April 22, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    I can't image what an FLDS mother is going through. What will Texas say to a mother that has 4 kids all under the age of 8 or 9? I don't understand why those mothers can't take their kids that have not been married and simply leave. Is this a case where one teen bride equals loss of every child in the compound? What a mess? Will the mothers ever be able to reunite with their kids? CPS seems to be quick to get those kids out of their parents hands. I guess I don't understand the law or the logic.

  • Re: Re: Is this America?
    April 22, 2008 3:14 p.m.

    "If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about losing your kids pemanently."

    Sorry buddy, you're not paying attention. Texas CPS argues that all children must be removed because they are being taught to accept the sect's practices. So even if you don't commit abuse, if you believe that the marital practices of the FLDS are condoned by God and teach that to your children, you are participating in "systemic abuse". The argument is that what they believe is abusive. That is why they didn't just take the pregnant teens into custody. Doesn't it trouble you at all that people can lose their children for what they believe, not just what they do? Many children in state custody are from a legally married couple that have not directly participated in underage marriage. But because they believe the tenets of the FLDS religion, they lost their kids. To quote the original poster - Is this America?

    Legal scholars from around the country are beginning to speak - it doesn't look good for Texas.

  • Non-Texan
    April 22, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    Why can't anybody figure out that each of the FLDS children will have the exact same DNA. It's called inbreading. Are they trying to figure out which ones don't belong? The only abuse that I can see is making the children live in Texas.

  • Mink
    April 22, 2008 3:00 p.m.

    For those interested in what's happening in Texas on all sides of the argument, please do a search for "genocidewatch". Go to their web site and read the "What is genocide?" page. Among other useful information, you will read the following:

    "Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide:

    "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    After reading this web page, explain to me, if you can, how what is happening in Texas doesn't resemble item (e) above. By all means, go after abusers, rescue the abused. But to take all the children of any community and give them to others looks too much like a form of state-sponsored genocide.

  • Evidence
    April 22, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    It's funny, this day in age people thing they are entitled to know the evidence in a case. Evidence isn't publically released so defendants' rights to a fair trial are preserved. If all the evidence is released, the public can form their own opinions on a case before it goes to trial and jurors would go to a case with a decision already made destroying the defendant's right to a "fair" trial.

    No criminal charges have been filed yet at this point, so any evidence of such isn't being publically disclosed. At this point they are just deciding the fate of the children, using the least amount of evidence necessary. Once criminal charges are pressed we'll get to see all the evidence. Everyone's hunger for evidence will be satisfied and at that point the same people screaming the FLDS were wronged will be demanding the heads of the "husbands."

    I find it sadly amusing people on here want the children to go back to the place where the children were abused, denied their agency and raped.

  • Re: Is this America?
    April 22, 2008 2:52 p.m.

    "The state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put them up for adoption."

    Your kids are in protective custody only until Texas determines that it's safe to return them to your home.

    If you haven't abused your kids and you aren't planning to marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 50 year old buddy of yours, you don't have to worry about losing your kids permanately.

  • Agape
    April 22, 2008 2:47 p.m.

    The world watches!
    I'm not an attorney so the legal aspects I leave to the courts. I'm a responsible adult. I'm a woman. As such I listen to the women who have left this cult that tell us the facts as they know it. They have spoken about physical water tortue to babies to keep them quiet and of being "assigned" to men as wives. In slave trading days that was called being on the auction block. Women were assets lsited in slave traders livestock books. Don't these women have a since of wonder or the world and want more education for their children? I've heard these brave boys who were "asked to leave" speak on the talk shows; they cannot speak proper English--they have no language skills.

    To the Women of the Warren Jeffs cult (and it is a CULT). Be Brave and Coureagous The World can be a wonderul and exciting place to explore. Do Not Live in Fear. Fear is what dominates you. Overcome it and lead your children into a new world.

  • Where's Merrill Jessop?
    April 22, 2008 2:46 p.m.

    Haven't seen HIM on any national media, now have we? Hmmm...

  • elisa c
    April 22, 2008 2:42 p.m.

    I can't understand, in this child abuse case how the state would allow these women to be set free to return to this ranch in Texas. How can these women beleive that allowing your daughters to have sex and marry old men at the age of 13yrs or younger I don't doubt. Is normal. Yea, right that is why their are living on a compound away from the real world-have children have sex with older men or within family is not a call from God.

  • Who's Your Dad?
    April 22, 2008 2:33 p.m.

    I hope they find who the fathers are. I was wonder if the men who appeared on tv were the only fathers to all those kids in custody? Or are there other men still hiding? It looks like just a few men in the cult may be fathers to most of the kids in custody. It looks like there are tons and tons of mothers, with no husbands hanging around. Interesting and very weird.

  • Re: Abe
    April 22, 2008 2:28 p.m.

    You claim that they collect welfare so there should be records. Unfortunately, they also commit fraud when they lie with their information as they do, hence the term welfare fraud which is what they actually commit.

  • chemist
    April 22, 2008 2:27 p.m.

    To American; You are correct in that CPS does not need a jury trial to remove and keep children. Their goal is to remove endangered children from the potentially harmful environment. CPS could not simply remove the abusers because they did not know who was and was not an abuser. In individual family cases CPS will yank the children out of the home and if there is a nursing child keeping the mother with the child would not even be considered. The Texas CPS was quite lenient in letting mothers stay with the children as long as they did. Go Texas, I will weep for any child returned to the YFZ compound.

  • TJHI
    April 22, 2008 2:18 p.m.

    Watching the breaking up of this abusive cult has been like watching one of the best movies ever made. Watching the buses take away the kids is heartwarming. It will give them a fighting chance in life. Utah, Arizona, Colorado, or South Dakota... How about a sequel.

  • American
    April 22, 2008 2:14 p.m.

    In almost, if not every state the CPS can remove ..AND KEEP.. children .. without a warrant..
    without evidence ... without a jury ... without a trial!

    The "hearings" are not trials ...and.. nearly all "hearings" are held with the public barred.

    Records of "hearings" kept from the public and news media AND are often SEALED for YEARS.

    There is nothing similar to a fair trial.
    Please do not sit back and allow total disregard for
    our rights, the law, our CONSTITUTION and the freedoms our soldiers are fighting and dying for.

    At least you can SPEAK UP and require our Governors, Senators and Representatives to DO WHAT IS RIGHT.


    Some studies show that more children are abused ... physically, sexually and mentally in foster care than when left with "accused parents".

    The cost of close supervision by DEPARTMENT employees is substantially LESS and FAR MORE effective than removal.

    Why did The Texas CPS not simply have the men and/or any suspected abusers removed and LET THE CHILDREN STAY where they were happy and comfortable.

    Do a search for CaptiveFLDSChildren to learn more about the Texas situation.

  • Lizzie
    April 22, 2008 2:02 p.m.

    I don't see that the state is doing anything wrong so far.

    My opinion may change as this goes on. But so far so good.

    Sorry if you think me heartless...I'm a mommy of 5 myself and love my children more than anything. I am also a religous person. But that doesn't change the fact that we are to obey the laws of the land. So with that said, FLDS members either need to obey the laws or continue to break the laws and go to jail.

    As far as laws to stop the whole polygamy lifestyle, I'm not sure how anyone will ever do that. As long as the man and all his girlfriends are happy living together, who says they can't. They aren't legally married.

  • Leroy G.
    April 22, 2008 1:57 p.m.

    If underaged girls are forced to marry and have children that is clearly wrong.

    "admitting that you are a child with children of your own would have been too much exposure to liability."
    Sure would but not to me. Liability to the Father!! Remember I am a child with children. No liability for me unless later if it is proven that I am indeed an adult and they charge me with a crime.

  • Cookie
    April 22, 2008 1:59 p.m.

    The Crayola crayon was invented in 1903.
    It has been reported on tv that kind people
    brought crayons for the FLDS children.
    The children did not know what to do with
    the crayons.
    Post writers keep harping about Constitutional
    Rights. I won first place in a Bill of Rights
    essay contest, so I KNOW THAT FOR EVERY FREEDOM
    Don't children in the 21st Century have a right
    to know how to use a crayon?
    "Contrarywise", there is a huge picture window
    here and it doesn't take a rocket scientist
    to see the light.
    The FLDS have been given their freedoms for
    over 100 years, violated their correspnding
    responsibilities, and now must face the consequences.
    I don't live in Texas, but even I can see
    that Texas sees the light in the big picture
    It is the most mind-boggling sociological,
    psychological, medical and ECONOMICAL event
    in American history dealing with a group
    of USA residents. It will be written about in college textbooks. It has nothing to do with
    Texas will ensure that these children will have
    a chance to paint their future with more than
    just crayons.

  • G
    April 22, 2008 1:57 p.m.

    I've been following this for a few days. Here's a list of things CPS has told the media were evidence:

    (1) A hoaxed phone call.

    (2) A bed found in a temple--no forensic evidence recovered. Expert testimony said that that wasn't unusual and that no "Mormon" group would allow sexual relations in a temple, despite the salacious imaginings of CPS officers.

    (3) A rather small percentage (out of hundreds) of teenage women that were or had been pregnant and "looked underage". No proof of age.

    (4) Between 20-30 adult women taken and held for a week because they also "looked underage" but weren't. That'll be a lawsuit.

    We're supposed to take this all as unquestioned truth from an agency that lacked even the competence to get an accurate count of the number of children they took for the first week. Now they're taking DNA and assigning numbers. They'll probably mess that up too.

  • ExpertThinker
    April 22, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    I predicted that the number of children and adults would change when the mothers were separated from their children. If a girl lied and said that she was over 18, to be able to protect her 'husband', she would lose the right to be with her children. If she admitted that she was under 18, she would be allowed to stay with her children. I'm presuming these young mothers have a stronger maternal instinct, than their desire to be a young mistress. Even if the girl believes that she will go to hell for leaving the compound, or not obeying and protecting the men, she would probably choose to be with her children. Did you really think that she would let them take her children out in the evil world when she could admit her age and stay with her children.

  • Is this America?
    April 22, 2008 1:51 p.m.

    This is a nightmare, you are accused of child endangerment by a hoaxter. The state takes your kids. Puts them into fostercare, threatenes to put them up for adoption.

    The saying comes to mind, they came for the Jews, I was silent, they came for the union members I stayed silent. They came finally for me.

    Where is the ACLU, Where is the public, where is common sense?

    What is becoming of America?

  • Abe
    April 22, 2008 1:51 p.m.

    If all these "single mothers" are collecting welfare, shouldn't there be lots of documentation to identify their children?

  • ok
    April 22, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    CPS lies not us I know....

  • To Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 1:47 p.m.

    It's not misrepresentation. It's incompetence on the part of the State of Texas.

  • Leroy G.
    April 22, 2008 1:28 p.m.

    Maybe you did not know that DNA testing can not determine age. Looking can not determine age. Not even CSI can determine age with a body to work with. They can only determine an age range.
    So they were told by their husbands to say they were 18?? A young woman when asked her age , repeats the question as she turns toward her husband and he says "18" ??? How many times have you repeated a question asked of you because you do not understand why someone should ask the question. I am 66 and I have done that innumerable times.
    Assuming some of the girls are lying about age, they are not stupid and are not going to change the story because of DNA testing!!! But thy might lie in order to stay with their children. I would!

  • To Rumores again
    April 22, 2008 1:35 p.m.

    Your argument is flawed. The root of the trouble they are facing is the fact that under-age girls are being forced to marry and have children. Admiting outright that you are a child, with children of your own, would have been too much exposure to liability. Of course they lied about their age. And if a 15 year-old says she is 17 and an adult, CPS may have no reason to believe otherwise.

  • G
    April 22, 2008 1:30 p.m.

    "it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible evidence of systemic child abuse."

    George Bush called. He wants them to check for WMDs too.

  • To Oh Contrarywise
    April 22, 2008 1:23 p.m.

    First of all, Archaea Cougarguard is right, the State has zero obligation, and honestly, no good reason to tout their evidence to the media. Why, in our day and age, do we assume that they should have to do that. The judge, and where appropriate, a jury hear the evidence and decide the case, not the media or the public at large.

    Secondly, what is the statutory definition of sexual abuse in Texas? We are under the paradigmatic view that there must have been forced sexual assault or rape coupled with physical abuse. However, every state has a statute, or statutes defining sexual abuse to include sexual contact with a minor, whether consensual or not. Most commonly we hear the term 'Statutory Rape' used in these instances.

    So whether the state shows its evidence to the media or not, there is prima facie evidence in every pregnant girl 16 years of age or younger.

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 1:22 p.m.

    Anyone here ever been chaperone for a school excursion? How easy is it to keep track of 25 or 30 kids you don't know? Now imagine there are 400+ kids. Imagine they all dress similarly, the same style of clothing, often even the same color of clothing. Imagine the kids all have similar features. Imagine the children are all closely related because of the plural marriage thing and the practice of marrying cousins. Imagine you are trying to count them while Sally and Susie are coming and going from the restroom and doing whatever else was going on at the Coliseum. Sounds like a difficult task to tell everyone apart even if there is NOT deliberate misrepresentation of key details. Add to that the issue of who is or is not an adult and whatever they are saying about that topic as well.

    Sounds to me like CPS is just trying to get everyone processed out of the Coliseum and THEN maybe try to make other arrangements for visitation or placement issues. We are going to be hearing about this story all summer.

  • To from tx (DFW)
    April 22, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    Uh, here's a quote from another article here on this website:

    "We've been able to get a better count now that we're over here at the coliseum," said Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for the Texas child protective services. "You can imagine with these many people and different locations, it was hard to get an exact count."

    Pulliam defended the earlier numbers, saying that it was difficult to get an accurate count.

    "You've got mothers with babies in cots, but not everybody's lying down at the exact same time," she said. "Some are in the restroom at times when you're counting. Some people are in the shower. There's a lot of different things going on at the same time."

    Soooo, it sounds to me like there's a lot of incompetence going on there. Imagine if they used this system to count children in Elementary School? Using the excuse that "some were in the restroom" uh, yeah, that instills confidence that these people know what they're doing.

  • Rumors again!
    April 22, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    So those claiming to be adults were counted as adults??? Believe me if CPS thought they were children, they were counted as children and not adults.
    Also there is this thought-- if you were a young mother about to be separated from your chid, would it not be preferred to be identified as a minor and get to stay with your child?? Even if I was an adult, I would change my story if it meant I could go with my child.

  • E Plurus Unum
    April 22, 2008 1:07 p.m.

    In response to Archaea Cougarguard: "it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the law."

    You clearly have never dealt with Texas CPS before! CPS' definition of evidence is rather vague and broad. They can enter 'evidence' that would be and is laughed out of any other court room. This is why CPS needs to forced to follow due process - it is nearly impossible for outside reviewers to figure out what they have done because their difinition of evidence is so broad and vague and the case workers have so much leeway in interpreting said evidence. Why do you think CPS has been so resistent to Sunshine laws?

  • To Contrarywise
    April 22, 2008 1:08 p.m.

    'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.'

    Evidence, charges, trial, verdict, sentence.

    Texas is still working on evidence.

    Your call for ACTUAL PROOF of abuse is a bit premature. Texas hasn't even identified the possible victims and perpetrators yet.

    Until Texas identifies a specific underage girl who was spiritually married and sexually abused by a specific adult man, there will be no ACTUAL PROOF of abuse.

  • outside world
    April 22, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    The news accounts I read stated that they did 'head counts' previously and not all children were evidently present at the time each count was taken---they were elsewhere than that particular room or area. I have read nothing stated that they moved ages down from adult to child. How exactly are they supposedly proving someone is 16 and not 17? That's not what the statements from CPS said in news accounts that I read.

  • Leroy G.
    April 22, 2008 1:00 p.m.

    Really does not matter about the count of the children. What matters is the TOTAL being held at the Coliseum. If the additional children was a result of those claiming to be adults then the number of adults would have declined but--
    As of April 21
    In yet another FLDS raid-related development, coordinating attorneys, legal aid attorneys and guardians ad litem announced an undisclosed number of 20-30 young women whose adult status had been debated had indeed been determined to be legally adults.

  • In Jail
    April 22, 2008 1:06 p.m.

    Just thought I would remind those on here feeling sorry for the FLDS and claiming Texas is picking on this innocent religious group that the "prophet" of this harmless group of people is behind bars for marrying an unwilling 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy and forcing her to have sex with the 19 year old. Jeffs was tried and found guilty by the state of Utah. Jeffs is known to have been visted the Texas ranch, so what makes you think the same things he did in Utah didn't happen in Texas?

  • Gena
    April 22, 2008 12:56 p.m.

    CPS itself stated it didn't have an accurate count because of people in cots and going to the bathroom, etc when they were trying to count them - uh, they couldn't just line everybody up??

    Yesterday, the report was that an "undisclosed number" of 20-30 girls of disputed age had been proved to be ADULTS.

    And they have LAWYERS locked up in there?? That ought to go over really well!

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 12:56 p.m.

    of course we can believe every word that cps tells us...NOT...

  • To Skeptical
    April 22, 2008 12:55 p.m.

    You are not skeptical, you are merely projecting the contents of your own filthy mind onto people you know nothing about. You, like many others who comment in these DN forums, have bought the entire package of allegations made by people with an agenda - people who are having a very difficult time coming up with anything to prove their allegations of abuse.

  • Re: Incredulous
    April 22, 2008 12:53 p.m.

    Incredulous...it's not that Texas can't count it's that the FLDS keep lying to them. One day a girl says her name is Ester and she's 19 years old. The next day the same girl says her name is Ruth and she's 16 years old. Consequently, the number of children in custody changes.

    The FLDS thought they could simply lie and get away with it. Now that the state is testing them, the FLDS realize the gig is up so they are starting to confess their real ages. Before the women were escorted out of the ranch, every "husband" ordered their 16 year old "wife" to tell authorities they were 18 or older. The FLDS probably thought they would get away with it and their "wives" would be returned. But, Texas realizes an "18" year old girls with two kids doesn't really add up.

    I think it's funny the teenage girls with one child say they are 18, and all the teenage girls with two or more kids say they are 19. Why? Because if an 18 year old has two kids (unless they are twins) that means she was at most 16 when she had the first kid.

  • tx res.
    April 22, 2008 12:48 p.m.

    also on the poster who says no proof of child sex abuse what are pregnant teens to you and why is leader or former leader jailed?? hum? thats strange isn't it?

  • Anonymous
    April 22, 2008 12:47 p.m.

    "Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had 421 kids in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This speaks volumes about the whole debacle down in Texas. "

    The reason the number of kids changes is not that they don't know how many people are there, but that people previously identified adults are reclassified as children, because they lied about how old they were.

  • SueM
    April 22, 2008 12:46 p.m.

    Ummmmmmmmm you are complaining that the Texas doesnt know how many kids there is...

    Doesnt look like the FDLS members knew either
    you woul dthink they would know how many children
    were living at that ranch and even they didnt say a word go figure.. those people are pumping those kids out so fast that not even they can keep track

  • Re:Incredulous and Count
    April 22, 2008 12:46 p.m.

    An explanation just for Incredulous and Count, and I am sure other FLDS Schooled people. The count went up because, believe or not, some of the women lied and said they were adults and when CPS found this out that raised the child count from 421 to 437. Not hard to understand. They Lied about their age and everything else they have told the authorities.

  • Archaea Cougarguard
    April 22, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    Contrarywise: it is not the responsibility of the Texas legal system to publicly disclose their evidence. Rest assured there is a plethora of credible evidence of systemic child abuse. To assume otherwise demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the law.

  • from tx (dfw)
    April 22, 2008 12:50 p.m.

    the reason I believe for the mix up in the number of children were because many children did not know their birthdays correctly or were not telling how old they were espically the pregnant teens were at first saying that they were older therefore not children having children but adults and it has since been determined that a lot of them are indeed children, so the count rises. just fyi

  • Oh Contrarywise
    April 22, 2008 12:33 p.m.

    Contrary to (un)poplular belief, the CPS have found/presented NO EVIDENCE that there is/has been any child sexually or physically abused. They keep saying that they "believe" that the FLDS culture may be harmful to children and basing their (CPSs's) "beliefs" on media reports. What gives. Why haven't we seen ACTUAL PROOF of abuse yet?

  • Count
    April 22, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    If the State of Texas can't count, how will they know when a child goes missing?

  • Skeptical
    April 22, 2008 12:18 p.m.

    >>"I don't know why I should have to do this. I have documents," said an FLDS man as he left the building.

  • Incredulous
    April 22, 2008 12:17 p.m.

    Can the state of Texas not count????! Haven't they said that they had 421 kids in custody? Now it's 437! How can they miss 16 children? This speaks volumes about the whole debacle down in Texas.

  • Denny Andrews
    April 22, 2008 12:17 p.m.

    I heard on bbc world service that there's some sort of election thing, a non flds related news story, also going on in the US somewhere...