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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official
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Archaea Cougarguard | 9:14 a.m. April 22, 2008
As a practicing family law attorney in Henderson, NV, I must say the majority of
opinions herein lack a fundamental knowledge of the law. First and foremost,
there was probable cause to determine all the FLDS children were in danger.
Therefore, they needed to be removed from that environment. The mothers'
cell phones could be used to engage in conspiracy, destroy evidence or divulge
specific locations. LDS people love a conspiracy theory and anything to promote
their persecution complex. The FLDS situation adequately fills both needs.
Dyann | 9:14 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'd like to know why FLDS and LDS continue to make this case into something
it is definately not.
It is NOT about POLYGAMY.
It is about CHILD rape and CHILD TRAFFICKING.
It is about PEDOPHILES forming their own Secret Community/Cult of expoitation of baby girls for the soul purpose of corralling them up for later fodder to feed the "men".
It is NOT about POLYGAMY.
It is about CHILD rape and CHILD TRAFFICKING.
It is about PEDOPHILES forming their own Secret Community/Cult of expoitation of baby girls for the soul purpose of corralling them up for later fodder to feed the "men".
Texas participant | 9:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
I am involved in the case in San Angelo as an attorney. I am also a Unitarian.
If it were agreeable to the women of the FlDS for me to act as a buffer for
these women, I would. See I have this curious belief that people have the right
to worship as they wish. I had hoped that the members of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints would be more involved, I may be asking for
placement of these children with them, I thought that it would be preferrable
for these children. Now, after reading these comments, I have serious doubts.
Comments continue below
Nat | 9:21 a.m. April 22, 2008
Hummmmm? Is this Texas Judge a Baptist? Is this some kind of a set-up or what?
VERY WEIRD!
Hopefully the LDS church isn't that stupid to go in and spy on a bunch of polygamist FLDS woman. I would say this is a pretty odd thinking for a Judge. In fact she is down right scary!
Hopefully the LDS church isn't that stupid to go in and spy on a bunch of polygamist FLDS woman. I would say this is a pretty odd thinking for a Judge. In fact she is down right scary!
Gotta love that Texas Gestapo | 9:19 a.m. April 22, 2008
How convenient.
When they get you in a sticky situation, abuse your power to get out of it.
Secrecy is essential when oppressing the people.
Well of course anyone with a heart, soul, and/or brain knows this, but it�s a bit much to expect from the government.
Sieg Heil!!!!!! Totaler Krieg!!!!!!!!
"Now, CPS, arise and storm break loose!"
hypocrites | 9:26 a.m. April 22, 2008
Today FLDS, Tomorrow let's round up Jehovah's Witnesses for not
allowing blood transfusion to their children in need! Then we can go after
Seventh Day Adventist and Amish and any other religion that don't do what
we like... all because the STATE is best to determine what's BEST INTEREST
OF THE CHILDREN? But don't go after any entity that promotes children out
of wedlock or encourages aborting children in the wombs!
???? | 9:26 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm not FLDS, but since they broke off long ago, to them it might seem like
the great and abominable church praying with them. Can anyone who is FLDS shed
light on how they would handle LDS church members praying with them?
James | 9:28 a.m. April 22, 2008
Why is everyone so worried about what others think of them? Geez, who cares.
If God knows everything and eveything is done for a purpose, what do you care what someone else thinks. There's more to this than a big PR blitz.
If God knows everything and eveything is done for a purpose, what do you care what someone else thinks. There's more to this than a big PR blitz.
True Christian | 9:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
As true christians, Mormons should be willing to help any faith at any time.
Why would the Stake President even have to call Salt Lake? I say go for it.
This will give the Mormons a chance to convert the FLDS back into the
mainstream. We would love to have more children in our Sacrament meetings.
jtm | 9:34 a.m. April 22, 2008
An Orthodox Jew and a Jew in most peoples eyes are pretty much the same thing.
Unfortunately LDS and FLDS represent pretty much the same thing to a lot of
people. You out there that can't understand how anyone could compare the
two are in a major case of denial!.
Observations | 9:39 a.m. April 22, 2008
1. To think the judge purposely wants to tie the LDS Church to the FLDS is just
another example of LDS paranoia.
2. The judge appears to think an LDS observer would make it more comfortable for the FLDS. This is reasonable on it's face due to so many similarities of belief (BofM, belief in early prophets, temple ceremonies, and even the doctrine of plural marriage in the next life, etc etc) but in reality the FLDS believe the LDS Church is apostate and would probably be more comfortable with a Baptist, Catholic, etc.
3. Amidst our extreme PR and defensiveness, let's please not forget that if not for Joseph Smith's introduction of plural marriage and the official LDS continuation of plural marriage (in Mexico and Canada) AFTER the manifesto until at least 1904, the FLDS and others like them would not even exist. So our obsession with image does need to involve a dose of reality and empathy for something WE FREAKIN' STARTED!!!
2. The judge appears to think an LDS observer would make it more comfortable for the FLDS. This is reasonable on it's face due to so many similarities of belief (BofM, belief in early prophets, temple ceremonies, and even the doctrine of plural marriage in the next life, etc etc) but in reality the FLDS believe the LDS Church is apostate and would probably be more comfortable with a Baptist, Catholic, etc.
3. Amidst our extreme PR and defensiveness, let's please not forget that if not for Joseph Smith's introduction of plural marriage and the official LDS continuation of plural marriage (in Mexico and Canada) AFTER the manifesto until at least 1904, the FLDS and others like them would not even exist. So our obsession with image does need to involve a dose of reality and empathy for something WE FREAKIN' STARTED!!!
Disgusted with CPS | 9:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
They have no right to interfere with breastfeeding unless the baby is in
imminent danger - and these babies are not. Breastfeeding mothers have rights
and breastfeeding infants have rights to the best food made for their tiny,
growing bodies and should not be forced to accept an inferior substitute.
Please pray for all of us. Texas is showing us what government can be and it's frightening. I've seen firsthand what CPS can do and they are protected no matter what because everything is "in the name of child protection" even when they are dead wrong. In the end, after the child has been traumatized by the system, families are disrupted and untold psychological damage has been inflicted, should the judge finally rule in favor of the family, the best they will get is, "OK, we're done harassing you - now go back to your home and deal with the mess we created." There will be no admission of their mistake, no apology, no help. This agency must be investigated and reigned in. Power has been given too freely and is abused. Nobody is objectively watching them. The Governor says he has perfect faith int heir system? Who oversees them?
Please pray for all of us. Texas is showing us what government can be and it's frightening. I've seen firsthand what CPS can do and they are protected no matter what because everything is "in the name of child protection" even when they are dead wrong. In the end, after the child has been traumatized by the system, families are disrupted and untold psychological damage has been inflicted, should the judge finally rule in favor of the family, the best they will get is, "OK, we're done harassing you - now go back to your home and deal with the mess we created." There will be no admission of their mistake, no apology, no help. This agency must be investigated and reigned in. Power has been given too freely and is abused. Nobody is objectively watching them. The Governor says he has perfect faith int heir system? Who oversees them?
G | 9:46 a.m. April 22, 2008
A couple of separate points:
(1) What the State of Texas means by "observe" is what others might call "to spy on". The judge is not asking for prayer participants. She wants them to report to Texas if something "inappropriate" is said.
(2) I hope the LDS church makes a decision based upon inspiration and concern for the families involved, and not public relations.
(3) If the decision is "no", I wonder how binding that would be on individual members who might volunteer in an unofficial capacity.
(4) However odd it may sound to us, at least this seems to be an unusual, less-draconian decision from this judge. I was expecting her to just ban prayer completely.
(1) What the State of Texas means by "observe" is what others might call "to spy on". The judge is not asking for prayer participants. She wants them to report to Texas if something "inappropriate" is said.
(2) I hope the LDS church makes a decision based upon inspiration and concern for the families involved, and not public relations.
(3) If the decision is "no", I wonder how binding that would be on individual members who might volunteer in an unofficial capacity.
(4) However odd it may sound to us, at least this seems to be an unusual, less-draconian decision from this judge. I was expecting her to just ban prayer completely.
James | 9:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
For those of you complaining about the Abilene Stake President asking for
guidance from Church leadership before responding to this judge's request:
He's right, you're wrong because what the judge is asking the for is
to have members of the LDS Church become agents of the court without proper and
unbiased training about what might constitute improper coaching of the children.
This is a question that needs to be dealt with by the General Counsel of the
Church because of the long term legal implications if members of the church get
sucked into this mess.
For those of you complaining about the FLDS not being cooperative with the state: The U.S. Constitution guarantees a right against self-incrimination. The best way for an individual to avoid self-incrimination when The State is coming after them is to say little or nothing. In their case, anything they say will be used against them either legitimately or because it will be twisted to fit the CPS and prosecutor preconceptions.
For those of you complaining about the FLDS not being cooperative with the state: The U.S. Constitution guarantees a right against self-incrimination. The best way for an individual to avoid self-incrimination when The State is coming after them is to say little or nothing. In their case, anything they say will be used against them either legitimately or because it will be twisted to fit the CPS and prosecutor preconceptions.
Legal Point | 9:46 a.m. April 22, 2008
In the past, the LDS Church has joined with other religious groups in defending
religious freedoms all the way up to the Supreme Court level. If this situation
becomes less and less about verifiable child abuse and more about religious
liberty, expect to see other religions jump to the defense of the FLDS. But
where in the past the LDS Church has even joined forces with the ACLU when
religious liberties were at stake, expect them to stay as far away as possible
regardless of the outcome. Why? - because again, image rules the day.
Roger | 9:55 a.m. April 22, 2008
"They think we're the same ones because we use the Book of
Mormon," Charles L. Webb told the Deseret News. "I'm dumbfounded
they would suggest that."
That being Webb's reaction, i respectfully suggest he is found dumb.
They, FLDS, also use Section 132 D&C. Their acceptance of which roots this whole dilema. Admit it Pres Webb, and other LDS Apologists, you all profess JSjr as a "Prophet". That, if nothing else, ties you closer to each other than any LDS denial can, or will ever untie. FLDS folks are THE only ones in the WORLD who agree with you... Respect them, they're family.
That being Webb's reaction, i respectfully suggest he is found dumb.
They, FLDS, also use Section 132 D&C. Their acceptance of which roots this whole dilema. Admit it Pres Webb, and other LDS Apologists, you all profess JSjr as a "Prophet". That, if nothing else, ties you closer to each other than any LDS denial can, or will ever untie. FLDS folks are THE only ones in the WORLD who agree with you... Respect them, they're family.
Wake Up Webb | 9:56 a.m. April 22, 2008
President Charles Webb needs to revisit what it truly means to be a christian.
I can't believe a stake pres would respond like he did. That is
embarrasing!
As a devout mormon, I believe the LDS church needs to QUIT taking a stance of division (by saying we are not the same) and instead be willing to help out a fellow community in need. CHURCH LEADERSHIP IN SLC NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS CONCERN IMMEDIATELY BY CHANGING HOW THE CHURCH IS RESPONDING TO THE ISSUE. Lets help our fellow christians in need the same as we do for humanitarian efforts for muslims in the far east, baptists in the south, or catholics in central america.
As a devout mormon, I believe the LDS church needs to QUIT taking a stance of division (by saying we are not the same) and instead be willing to help out a fellow community in need. CHURCH LEADERSHIP IN SLC NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS CONCERN IMMEDIATELY BY CHANGING HOW THE CHURCH IS RESPONDING TO THE ISSUE. Lets help our fellow christians in need the same as we do for humanitarian efforts for muslims in the far east, baptists in the south, or catholics in central america.
RE: AuK | 9:52 a.m. April 22, 2008
Quoting from the article
"The cell phones were taken after members of the FLDS Church inside Fort Concho spoke to the Deseret News, complaining of cramped conditions."
"Child protective services workers denied that they were eavesdropping on the FLDS women involved, but *ATTORNEYS* for Texas child protective services expressed concerns about improper communications between mothers and children that *COULD* occur in private prayer times, which could affect pending investigations." (emphasis mine)
Absolutely no evidence, just photos that are embarassing to Texas CPS. The state of Texas will be filling the coffers of the FLDS Church to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars when all is said and done...
"The cell phones were taken after members of the FLDS Church inside Fort Concho spoke to the Deseret News, complaining of cramped conditions."
"Child protective services workers denied that they were eavesdropping on the FLDS women involved, but *ATTORNEYS* for Texas child protective services expressed concerns about improper communications between mothers and children that *COULD* occur in private prayer times, which could affect pending investigations." (emphasis mine)
Absolutely no evidence, just photos that are embarassing to Texas CPS. The state of Texas will be filling the coffers of the FLDS Church to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars when all is said and done...
Re: Mary | 9:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
I am totally with Mary. It would seem that monitoring members of the FLDS is a
quasi-legal role requiring a professional. What are these people supposed to
monitor? Illegal communication between mothers and children? So, what are the
monitors supposed to do if they find these activities going on? Grab the kids?
Slap the Moms? Call the cops? What? If they are more comfortable having LDS
members monitor, at least have some members with an official role do the
monitoring, and don't make a big deal about it. I don't see any way
that the LDS Church can come out of this without some damage no matter what
happens. The do agree, they are linked to the FLDS and pushed into a situation
most are unqualified to do; they don't agree, everybody comes down on them.
The judge handled it very poorly.
mom2many | 10:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
I believe the fact that the judge calling on LDS is fantastic. Possibly she has
interacted or found trust with someone/s in the past who has/had good
credibility that is LDS, active or not. There are many LDS who haven't
attended regularly for year/s but still has good moral believes/values. I say,
Kudos to the fact that she "trusts" us!
Serenity | 10:01 a.m. April 22, 2008
This is a clear violation of Church and State. Since when does a judge have any
authority to ask any religious group to "monitor" prayers. Where are
social services?????! She has clearly blurred the line. It was obvious from
the get go when Baptist buses were allowed to cart the children away. Why
couldn't the judge ask for buses from neighboring school districts or other
state facilities. Uh, Houston we have a problem??? This "judge"
needs to recuse herself and get someone with a brain oh, and a knowledge of the
law would help, to preside over this debacle. Way to go Texas. Just be
thankful it wasn't another Waco!
RE: Archaea Cougarguard | 10:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
You, sir, or ma'am, "As a practicing family law attorney",
apparently don't what you are talking about. Your statement that "The
mothers' cell phones could be used to engage in conspiracy, destroy
evidence or divulge specific locations" is ridiculous. I have a gun that
**COULD** be used to commit, oh, about a million different crimes, BUT neither
you, nor anyone else can take away my gun unless you have a SPECIFIC reason for
thinking that it was involved in a crime. You can't just come into my home
and take my cellphones, guns, computers, etc. unless there is probable cause
that they have been used in a crime. Taking them based on the premise that they
COULD be used in a crime is absolutely ludicrous and utterly against the laws of
this country (and most others in the civilized world).
Strange Request | 10:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
As far as I can tell, this is NOT an opportunity for LDS to provide
compassionate service. It IS an opportunity for LDS to become agents of the
Texas CPS system.
The only purpose in having a "monitor" there during prayer time is to make sure the communication stays within the guidelines set by the judge and by Texas CPS.
In no way should ANY person volunteer to become a spy for the Texas CPS. Texas needs to train their employees to do their own spying and thought-policing.
The only purpose in having a "monitor" there during prayer time is to make sure the communication stays within the guidelines set by the judge and by Texas CPS.
In no way should ANY person volunteer to become a spy for the Texas CPS. Texas needs to train their employees to do their own spying and thought-policing.
Church vs. State | 10:11 a.m. April 22, 2008
This has nothing to do with whether or not people in the LDS Church are willing
to help out, but has everything to do with a clear violation of church and
state. Since when does a judge have the right to ask any religion to
"monitor" the prayers of another person. This is completely
outrageous. Where is the ACLU????? Isn't this the kind of thing they like
to get involved in? It is clear from the get go that this judge has an agenda.
Why couldn't she get buses from other state facilities or local schools.
Why use Baptist buses to take the children away? Is this how the law works in
Texas? Perhaps they don't understand separation of church and state down
there.
its_Chet | 10:20 a.m. April 22, 2008
I would not question the decision of a Stake President. Not a good habit to get
into.
Shirley | 10:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
I was a little shocked when I read this story.
Knowing that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been having problems with those who do not understand that they ARE NOT in any way affiliated with the FLDS in Texas, I would think this would cause extra strain on the Mormon members in Texas.
Truthfully, I am looking forward to seeing what the brethren in Salt Lake have to say about this.
I believe it was a very odd request, indeed.
Knowing that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been having problems with those who do not understand that they ARE NOT in any way affiliated with the FLDS in Texas, I would think this would cause extra strain on the Mormon members in Texas.
Truthfully, I am looking forward to seeing what the brethren in Salt Lake have to say about this.
I believe it was a very odd request, indeed.
RE: hypocrites | 9:26 a.m | 10:19 a.m. April 22, 2008
�Today FLDS, Tomorrow let's round up Jehovah's
Witnesses for not allowing blood transfusion to their children in
need!�
Ignorant statement. Although the rest of the country realizes that Utah is terrified to trample on anyone�s �right� to violate bigamy laws or abuse a child in the interest of �religion.�
JW�s are allowed to refuse transfusions for adults, but when a child requires a transfusion in order to survive�hospitals will usually attempt a court order, with success. Many times, JW�s have attempted to remove a child from a hospital, rather than subject that child to a transfusion that will save his/her life.
The law is clear and the Supreme Court has spoken numerous times. No one has a right to violate the law or violate the constitutional rights of another, under the guise of religion.
Ignorant statement. Although the rest of the country realizes that Utah is terrified to trample on anyone�s �right� to violate bigamy laws or abuse a child in the interest of �religion.�
JW�s are allowed to refuse transfusions for adults, but when a child requires a transfusion in order to survive�hospitals will usually attempt a court order, with success. Many times, JW�s have attempted to remove a child from a hospital, rather than subject that child to a transfusion that will save his/her life.
The law is clear and the Supreme Court has spoken numerous times. No one has a right to violate the law or violate the constitutional rights of another, under the guise of religion.
Old Billy | 10:29 a.m. April 22, 2008
Am I the only person that can see what's really going on here? This
whole mess has been a way to drag down those nasty Mormons. Look at the facts,
a few phone calls from who knows where proclaiming abuse. Texas sends in the
A-team or should I say the Baptist team. But wait a minute, where is the young
woman that made the calls? Somewhere in Colorado! Not to mention the guy she
puts the finger on hasn't left Arizona for 2 years. Oh well lets go on a
fishing expedition with the Texas courts. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought
everyone had civil rights in this here country. Now I'm not connected with
the RLDS in any way. But I am an citizen of the United States, you know, Land
of the Free and Home of the Brave with freedom to worship as we may. Except in
Texas..
confession of a Judge | 10:28 a.m. April 22, 2008
if this is not a Religous attack why is it a problem to let them have flds over
see there Praying? She couldnt have attacked the 1st Ammendment any better.
Warren Jeffs | 10:29 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think its hilarious that the Judge wants LDS to monitor the FLDS. This is
absolutely great.
To: Texas Participant | 10:38 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'd like to hear your comments on my concern just posted. See "Strange
Request" posted 10:15. You have a front row seat to what is going on there.
Is this request from the judge different than what I suggested in that post?
Re: Born Again Mormon | 10:38 a.m. April 22, 2008
"...the LDS spring from the FLDS since the FLDS continue to abide by Joseph
Smith's teachings."
I would like to respectfully disagree. There is no question that the two religious groups are connected - there will never be a time that they are not.
I am in support of efforts of LDS Church members to offer service and support, and not to determine that support based on religion, if that is what the stake president chooses to do.
HOWEVER - Joseph Smith taught continuing revelation, not adhering to one secondary point of doctrine over another, or to abuse. If adherents to the FLDS church choose to practice "spiritual" polygamy among consenting adults, they are not following revelatory processes, but are free to live that lifestyle as adults old enough to make religious choices on their own in a country that protects that right. If, however, they are abusing children in the name of religion, then as any other group (LDS included), they deserve to face the consequences of that unlawful behaviour. Doctrines such as missionary work, obeying the laws of the land, worshiping the Saviour (not a lifestyle) were also doctrines of Joseph Smith they choose not to follow.
I would like to respectfully disagree. There is no question that the two religious groups are connected - there will never be a time that they are not.
I am in support of efforts of LDS Church members to offer service and support, and not to determine that support based on religion, if that is what the stake president chooses to do.
HOWEVER - Joseph Smith taught continuing revelation, not adhering to one secondary point of doctrine over another, or to abuse. If adherents to the FLDS church choose to practice "spiritual" polygamy among consenting adults, they are not following revelatory processes, but are free to live that lifestyle as adults old enough to make religious choices on their own in a country that protects that right. If, however, they are abusing children in the name of religion, then as any other group (LDS included), they deserve to face the consequences of that unlawful behaviour. Doctrines such as missionary work, obeying the laws of the land, worshiping the Saviour (not a lifestyle) were also doctrines of Joseph Smith they choose not to follow.
RE: Archaea Cougarguard | 10:04 | 10:44 a.m. April 22, 2008
You do not know what you are talking about. The adult mothers were not in custody. They were allowed to accompany the children if they chose to. When the judge ordered the cell phones removed for the reasons that �Archaea Cougarguard� outlined, the mothers had another choice. Either follow the rules and turn in the cell phones, or they could keep their cell phones and return to the compound. The mothers chose to turn in their cell phones, and then complain endlessly about that, as well as the cramped conditions.
I for one am sick of hearing their complaints. They left the compound as guests of the American taxpayers and stayed with the children at the taxpayers expense. The fact that they were even allowed to go with the children is unprecedented. I have personally worked with CPS case-workers and they are definitely not my favorite people, but I have to agree with �Archaea Cougarguard�, the level of ignorance on this board with regard to the law is astounding.
transplant | 10:46 a.m. April 22, 2008
You have all overlooked the obvious. Atheists are the only neutral people to
monitor these women during their prayer sessions. We are completely neutral.
Another Texan | 10:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge is not making an open call for community members to step in and help,
she was particularly targeting the LDS Church because of an association she was
making between the two faiths. Thus, for local church members this is not a
simple appeal for service-minded members of the community, but an attempt to
enroll LDS Church members, by virtue of that membership, as representatives of
the LDS Church to become agents of the court.
If the judge can legally monitor the prayers of the women and children from YFZ Ranch, and feels a compelling state need to do so, then state representatives (along with advocates for the women and children) need to be doing the monitoring, or the judge can just videotape the prayters and watch them herself to see if anything "inappropriate" is going on.
If the judge can legally monitor the prayers of the women and children from YFZ Ranch, and feels a compelling state need to do so, then state representatives (along with advocates for the women and children) need to be doing the monitoring, or the judge can just videotape the prayters and watch them herself to see if anything "inappropriate" is going on.
Texas Lawyer | 10:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
1. you should not be talking about the case in this or any other paper.
secondly, I'm sure you'll find plenty of fosterhomes for these kids. Some could even be LDS. I'm a foster parent, and would take a kid in a heartbeat. But to ask the church to go in as the offical church, is WRONG. If things go wrong? Will the innocnet LDS members be blamed? This is a poltical hot potato. To act in a private citizen way is fine. To be an 'offical' of the chruch is wrong, and help monitor 'prayers', is wrong. It also sounds to me that they even have a different traditon of worship, than the LDS do. If they need priesthood to conduct their meetings, they'll have to get one of their own. Our priesthood leaders would not be recognized by them anyway.
secondly, I'm sure you'll find plenty of fosterhomes for these kids. Some could even be LDS. I'm a foster parent, and would take a kid in a heartbeat. But to ask the church to go in as the offical church, is WRONG. If things go wrong? Will the innocnet LDS members be blamed? This is a poltical hot potato. To act in a private citizen way is fine. To be an 'offical' of the chruch is wrong, and help monitor 'prayers', is wrong. It also sounds to me that they even have a different traditon of worship, than the LDS do. If they need priesthood to conduct their meetings, they'll have to get one of their own. Our priesthood leaders would not be recognized by them anyway.
gramme | 10:59 a.m. April 22, 2008
My question is why ask the LDS church to monitor prayers, don't we all pray
to the same Heavenly Father? Why should one church be asked over another as the
LDS believe in the King James version of the Bible to be true as far as it is
translated correctly. Just because we also believe in additional scriptures
such as the Book of Mormon doesn't mean we pray any different than any
other religion. I would think that any Christian could volunteer to be with the
Mother's while the Texas government holds them and their children hostage
while they pray for guidance and help. These are real human beings, not cattle
or sheep yes maybe they have a different belief system than we do but goodness
as one man stated read your Bible, may the first one without sin cast the first
stone! The State of Texas should be ashamed of themselves to conduct this
"raid" without first considering the Mothers, the children and yes the
Fathers as well. While they are breaking the law,seems to me there would be a
better way of punishment and a little late don't you think??? How many
years has Texas allowed this?
Time to Retire Judge Judy | 10:59 a.m. April 22, 2008
Has this judge actually studied law, or is she just making this up as she goes?
What in the world is she thinking using someone's religion to qualify that
person to act as a proxy for the court? A new judge needs to be appointed
immediately to take over this case. A judge who understands that child abuse,
and not religion, is the basis of this case.
Stella | 11:13 a.m. April 22, 2008
Aren't prayers private?
Anonymous | 11:20 a.m. April 22, 2008
Some of the people posting comments somehow didn't read or comprehend what
was written in the article.
...Addressing the concerns about prayer privacy, Walther noted that there is a community of Mormons in San Angelo. The judge noted The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the same group but appeared to be seeking a reasonable compromise to resolving the issue.
"Would it be insensitive to have someone from that church monitor ... ?" she said, asking the guardians ad litem in the courtroom to contact local LDS leaders to see if they would be willing to provide a "buffer."
The Judge did the fairest thing possible in light of the situation, period.
...Addressing the concerns about prayer privacy, Walther noted that there is a community of Mormons in San Angelo. The judge noted The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the same group but appeared to be seeking a reasonable compromise to resolving the issue.
"Would it be insensitive to have someone from that church monitor ... ?" she said, asking the guardians ad litem in the courtroom to contact local LDS leaders to see if they would be willing to provide a "buffer."
The Judge did the fairest thing possible in light of the situation, period.
Margaret | 11:21 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge is showing great understanding that both FLDS and LDS have the same
scriptures and would understand where each other is coming from on that.
Also she shows great understanding of the difference between the two and great trust in the LDS church to supervise the prayer times. She obviously does not think an LDS supervisor would be 'on the side of' the FLDS but would be impartial. This surely indicates that she knows there is a difference.
It would be a great act of compassion for the LDS church to do this, and possibly a chance to teach ignorant people that there is a difference but we can still care for each other. A great possible missionary moment.
Also she shows great understanding of the difference between the two and great trust in the LDS church to supervise the prayer times. She obviously does not think an LDS supervisor would be 'on the side of' the FLDS but would be impartial. This surely indicates that she knows there is a difference.
It would be a great act of compassion for the LDS church to do this, and possibly a chance to teach ignorant people that there is a difference but we can still care for each other. A great possible missionary moment.
Baptist in Texas: re: Archae Cou | 11:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
Based upon your fundamental knowledge of Texas laws(since you practice in
Nevada, what is the probable cause that has determined ALL the children were in
danger? And on the cell phone issue I call that a complete ignorance of basic
rights. It does not appear that the Mormons here are loving a conspiracy theory,
persecution complex etc. They are as afraid as I am (even being a Baptist in
Texas) that the group is as a whole being persectued for their differences/
religious practices rather than factual substantiated allegations. An
investigation of the allegation of a 16 year old reporting abuse is one matter.
Removal of an entire community of children based on a FALSE allegation without
actual substantiation, is another matter completely. I guess government
interference in religion and violation of basic rights is ok as long as it does
not affect YOU and your beliefs. It's no wonder that LDS members may be a
little paranoid based upon blanket statements about them such as you posted
above. You have made their point for them. If the court wants something
monitored and wants to interfere in religous prayer. They should appoint
government officials to do it. Not any religion.
John Lambert | 11:37 a.m. April 22, 2008
To John R. Mallernee,
Chaplains are empllyees of the military. They have been trained in this matter. There are also prison chaplains. What they may need is to send in a chaplain who has experience dealing with FLDS people. That chaplain might be LDS, but just because your LDS does not mean you will understand the prayer methods of the FLDS.
I am not sure what is meant by prayer being sacred to these people. It might mean that they do it in a way that LDS people would feel is sacrilege, making LDS people more likely to be outraged at the whole process.
Who would President Webbsend to monitor the meetings? Would they have to recieve some training first? Is any ordained priesthood holder acceptable, or would they have to have training for the priesthood. Does this include people who went on missions, or just what the military recognizes, people trained in counseling. Maybe someone from LDS Family services would meet the requirement.
Chaplains are empllyees of the military. They have been trained in this matter. There are also prison chaplains. What they may need is to send in a chaplain who has experience dealing with FLDS people. That chaplain might be LDS, but just because your LDS does not mean you will understand the prayer methods of the FLDS.
I am not sure what is meant by prayer being sacred to these people. It might mean that they do it in a way that LDS people would feel is sacrilege, making LDS people more likely to be outraged at the whole process.
Who would President Webbsend to monitor the meetings? Would they have to recieve some training first? Is any ordained priesthood holder acceptable, or would they have to have training for the priesthood. Does this include people who went on missions, or just what the military recognizes, people trained in counseling. Maybe someone from LDS Family services would meet the requirement.
To Margaret | 11:43 a.m. April 22, 2008
When you say that the FLDS and LDS have the "same scriptures" are you
referring to the Old or New Testament?
Mark | 11:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
Stay far, far away from this crazy Texas judge. She has no respect of civil
liberties.
AZ Reader | 12:09 p.m. April 22, 2008
This debacle is going to turn out badly for the State of Texas. Granted, not so
much like Waco (which was a Federal fiasco), but badly nevertheless.
Huh? | 12:16 p.m. April 22, 2008
If it were LDS people herded together and being held the way these people are,
would you want your prayers monitored by RLDS (CoC) or FLDS? Why do you think it
would be any better the other way around?
Dubai | 12:18 p.m. April 22, 2008
Again, I think it needs to be reinforced that the members of the LDS church are
being asked to monitor prayers for mothers planting ideas into their
childrens' minds. The mothers will resent these monitors (spies)
regardless of religous affiliation. Sharing doctrine to a greater or lesser
extent does not change the fact that these groups will be in adversarial roles.
I find this to be a request not for Christian service but a litmus test for the
LDS to see if they will align with the mainstream in further ostracizing those
who share formerly held beliefs. The Christian thing to do is to not monitor
the prayers but to leave that to paid government officials who have the training
for such an activity and are already considered as adversaries.
Stupidity & Bigotry | 12:12 p.m. April 22, 2008
Did you hear the latest? Apparently the State of Texas can't count. First
they had 421 women & children. Now they have 437. Wow!
Regarding the use of LDS folks to monitor FLDS prayers, could the "judge" be any more bigoted?
Regarding the use of LDS folks to monitor FLDS prayers, could the "judge" be any more bigoted?
utah | 12:12 p.m. April 22, 2008
i love my belief! I love Joseph Smith.
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Attorney Julie Balovich, representing FLDS mothers whose children were taken from the YFZ compound, speaks to the media after a hearing at the Tom Green County Courthouse in San Angelo. She wants to reunite children and mothers.
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