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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official
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Eye Dee Ten Tee | 1:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
So, if FLDS are fundamentalist Mormons, arn't Baptists really
fundamentalist Catholics? Idiot ignorant Texans.
Wanda | 2:16 a.m. April 22, 2008
Why in the world would they ask such a thing? The LDS are not connected with
them (the polygamous sect) in anyway. Also why do their prayers need to be
monitored? What a wacko judge..
Neil | 4:12 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge acknowledged that the churches are not the same. I think the correct
response is, "Absolutely, we will serve our community anyway possible. We
assume the judge is asking for our help because we are a people of service, not
because of any supposed affiliation or connection to this fundamentalist group.
But just so there is no confusion, let us explain who we are...."
Comments continue below
John Robert Mallernee | 4:09 a.m. April 22, 2008
Greetings:
What difference does it make what religion, denomination, or sect these folks belong to?
As I understand it, representatives or members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints are only being requested to SUPERVISE the FLDS prayer meetings, not participate in them.
Latter-day Saint chaplains in the Armed Forces (as do all chaplains, of all faiths) regularly coordinate with other faiths during their normal course of duty, with no problem.
So, what's the big deal?
I would think my Latter-day Saint brethren would be happy to assist in any way they could.
I know I would, without even questioning or doubting.
And why is it necessary to seek permission before doing something good, or helping a neighbor in need?
Our scriptures repeatedly counsel us to be anxiously engaged in good works, and to not wait to be commanded to do so.
Thank you.
John Robert Mallernee
Bard of Clan Henderson
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400
What difference does it make what religion, denomination, or sect these folks belong to?
As I understand it, representatives or members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints are only being requested to SUPERVISE the FLDS prayer meetings, not participate in them.
Latter-day Saint chaplains in the Armed Forces (as do all chaplains, of all faiths) regularly coordinate with other faiths during their normal course of duty, with no problem.
So, what's the big deal?
I would think my Latter-day Saint brethren would be happy to assist in any way they could.
I know I would, without even questioning or doubting.
And why is it necessary to seek permission before doing something good, or helping a neighbor in need?
Our scriptures repeatedly counsel us to be anxiously engaged in good works, and to not wait to be commanded to do so.
Thank you.
John Robert Mallernee
Bard of Clan Henderson
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400
JAR | 4:40 a.m. April 22, 2008
A pretty dumb request but I can see why they considered this. Since when do non
lds study lds history to know the differnce between FLDS and LDS. The church has
been dealing with this stigma for how long now? Unless you live in Utah or deal
with the church, why would you bother learning the difference. Maybe she assumed
it was like the baptists(southern, national...).
To the first post: What is ignorant and stupid is you associating the judge's request with all Texans. Turn the mirror on yourself eye dee ten tee.
I also don't blame the judge for wanting to monitor their prayers. I seen the interviews of the FLDS women on the news and warning bells went off. If the women are unsupervised who knows what they will do to try to manipulate these kids. They can't be trusted.
To the first post: What is ignorant and stupid is you associating the judge's request with all Texans. Turn the mirror on yourself eye dee ten tee.
I also don't blame the judge for wanting to monitor their prayers. I seen the interviews of the FLDS women on the news and warning bells went off. If the women are unsupervised who knows what they will do to try to manipulate these kids. They can't be trusted.
Anonymous | 5:09 a.m. April 22, 2008
Why wouldn't she find another member of FLDS? Because this is an attack on
FLDS. She believes that all of them, as members of this church, a church that
espouses polygamy, are guilty.
Mike's Friend | 5:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think this situation gives the LDS church members an opportunity to let the
local Texans and the media know that there is a separation of church and church.
Every chance we get should be a teaching moment. Let's move towards
'informed knowledgable Texans'.
Robert | 5:14 a.m. April 22, 2008
Just goes to show the extent of the misunderstanding in this case. The FLDS have
a long and complicated history, and if the Texas authorities had a better grip
on it, they would have taken a different course in dealing with these people and
in resolving the problem of underage marriage. I wish the stake president in the
area all the best in working to straighten things out. I hope he can instill a
better understanding in the judge and all the others involved.
L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 5:32 a.m. April 22, 2008
If this whole charade is not about religion, why are the FLDS people constantly
referred to as a "polygamous sect"? Why not refer to them as
"FLDS Church members" or "alledged child abusers" or even
some other acceptable non-religious term?
Why do this? | 5:39 a.m. April 22, 2008
The reasoning is simple for this action. Since both groups share the Book of
Mormon, it is logical that someone LDS would have a greater degree of compassion
and understanding. The example of the Baptist and the Catholics is indeed a
good one. Pretend we are in Saudi Arabia, to that culture, asking a Catholic to
pray with the Baptist would seem logical since they both share a Christian Bible
even if there are differences. Other Christians do not use the Book of Mormon,
so this is logical deduction. The Judge made a point of saying that she
understood they were different. It is called compromise.
I suspect that the Church will gladly allow those LDS to pray with these women. Heck, I find it offensive that there are people suggesting we not just because of their religion. If they were Catholic would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. If they were Baptist would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. If they were ANY OTHER religion would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. SO why the exclusion? WWJD
I suspect that the Church will gladly allow those LDS to pray with these women. Heck, I find it offensive that there are people suggesting we not just because of their religion. If they were Catholic would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. If they were Baptist would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. If they were ANY OTHER religion would we be willing to pray with them? Yes. SO why the exclusion? WWJD
a great judge, in fact | 5:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
the moms have been lying about which kid belongs to whom, and have been taking
orders from merril jessop like a bunch of brainless sheep. Their prayers need to
be monitored to make sure they dont try to coach the kids to lie during their
prayer times.
Dana Bright | 5:48 a.m. April 22, 2008
This is a very clever judge, who helped her community rid themselves of the
annoying and weird FLDS bunch and now sees a way to tarnish the LDS by getting
them embroiled in the same controversy, further linking the two separate
churches in the minds of the media. The last thing the LDS church should do is
serve as a buffer between the state and the FLDS. The judge clearly hopes to
paint the LDS church with the same brush and stir up the locals against them as
well.
This judge has already demonstrated a woeful ignorance of the standards for probable cause necessary for issuing search warrants, and now further displays her ignorance of the religious groups within her own jurisdictional area. I am sure the LDS church will advise this stake president to do nothing more than provide humanitarian aid if requested.
This judge has already demonstrated a woeful ignorance of the standards for probable cause necessary for issuing search warrants, and now further displays her ignorance of the religious groups within her own jurisdictional area. I am sure the LDS church will advise this stake president to do nothing more than provide humanitarian aid if requested.
Born Again Mormon | 5:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge's request is totally reasonable. From an authentic Christian
perspective, there isn't much difference between LDS and FLDS.
From an organizational perspective, the FLDS spring from the LDS, but from a doctrinal perspective, the LDS spring from the FLDS since the FLDS continue to abide by Joseph Smith's teachings.
Most Texans are Christians, although many are Catholic, and so they naturally tend to see LDS as just a more moderate form of FLDS.
From an organizational perspective, the FLDS spring from the LDS, but from a doctrinal perspective, the LDS spring from the FLDS since the FLDS continue to abide by Joseph Smith's teachings.
Most Texans are Christians, although many are Catholic, and so they naturally tend to see LDS as just a more moderate form of FLDS.
Very weird... | 5:57 a.m. April 22, 2008
I don't understand why a judge would think a prayer would have to be
monitored. And also the LDS have absolultely nothing to do with the FLDS at all.
How would a LDS Authority know anything about the way the FLDS prayer cirlces
are?? DUH to the Texas judge! I think this mess is totally out of control!
reuel | 6:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think this would be a great thing for the LDS to do. It is an act of Christian
service. Will it happen? No the LDS want to stay as far away from these women
with funny hairdos as they can.
Texas LDS watching | 5:59 a.m. April 22, 2008
Having LDS people help out with this would be perceived as "watching over
our own". The LDS people do not condone polygamy - in fact we despise
current polygamy and all of the corrupt behavior and dysfunctions that go along
with it.
It would be nice if someone would help out with them, but hopefully,not the LDS. They want to lump us together with the polygamists.
It would be nice if someone would help out with them, but hopefully,not the LDS. They want to lump us together with the polygamists.
Confiscation? | 6:08 a.m. April 22, 2008
Is Texas really that scared that the rest of the nation might find out about the
conditions they have put these people in? Why else would they take away cell
phones? I can't even start to believe the horrendous abuses of these
people's rights. By the way, if I make a prank call to Texas authorities
about a Baptist preacher abusing his kids can they take away all the Baptist
kids and place them in state custody?
L | 6:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
Regarding prayer supervision which yje Judge seems to see as necessary, it would
seem to me to get the LDS Church involved would only serve to confuse the public
that there is a current relationship between the two groups.
I think the invitation should be respectfully denied and a suggestion made that if this supervision is deemed necessary by the court that someone like Chaplins for the Army (in plain clothers at least) who are used to and trained to deal with individuals of different faiths be the ones assigned to the task.
I don't have any first hand knowledge, but it seems that I remember that the suspected WAR detainees in Cuba were even given time and rights to prayer.
To ask the LDS Church to supervise the prayers seems to me almost like when Christ found the woman in adultry and was asked what he would do thinking it was a question that would cause him problems either way he answered. He really surprised them with the answer of whoever was without sin should throw the first stone.
I think the invitation should be respectfully denied and a suggestion made that if this supervision is deemed necessary by the court that someone like Chaplins for the Army (in plain clothers at least) who are used to and trained to deal with individuals of different faiths be the ones assigned to the task.
I don't have any first hand knowledge, but it seems that I remember that the suspected WAR detainees in Cuba were even given time and rights to prayer.
To ask the LDS Church to supervise the prayers seems to me almost like when Christ found the woman in adultry and was asked what he would do thinking it was a question that would cause him problems either way he answered. He really surprised them with the answer of whoever was without sin should throw the first stone.
Dixie Dan | 6:18 a.m. April 22, 2008
Since LDS people are not considered "Christians" by the mainstream
Protestant Churches, why not ask one of the "Christian Clergy" to
conduct prayer meetings? That should prove to be interesting.
leroy | 6:18 a.m. April 22, 2008
Odd request. Perhaps the judge knows that LDS is the parent and the FLDS is the
spin off cousin? Judge is smarter than I thought.
Ross | 6:20 a.m. April 22, 2008
No body can love others like the LDS, what a great opportunity to reach out to
the FLDS, not to judge them but to help them at this time and give them a better
role model, a chance to view the delta between the belief systems of the two
groups. Good things could come out of this if the spirit directs.
To: Wanda | 6:26 a.m. April 22, 2008
Perhaps the judge thought the FLDS women and children would be more comfortable
if the people monitoring them understood the Book of Mormon, and the way they
pray. I think the judge was trying to be considerate of them. Wouldn't
you rather have someone who understood a little more about your faith listen to
your prayers?
uncannygunman | 6:32 a.m. April 22, 2008
Baptists may not be fundamentalist Catholics, but fundamentalist Baptists are
certainly Baptists.
Texan | 6:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
Eye Dee Ten Tee: We aren't "Idiot ignorant Texans". We're
trying to do the best we can in a situation no other state has wanted to deal
with. We KNOW LDS and FLDS are not the same. No one is saying the LDS is
involved, the judge is only asking for help.
Human1 | 6:41 a.m. April 22, 2008
I bet Mitt's glad he dropped out of the election now. Can you imagine
trying to explain this crap to a nation of prejudiced idiots?
Eastern Observer | 6:41 a.m. April 22, 2008
It's not the prayers themselves they want monitored - it's that they
see the prayer time as an opportunity for the parents to coach the children on
what to/not to say to CPS people, etc.
As for the confusion on the part of the judge, I'm not surprised. My daughter currently at BYU was well-known to be the only LDS student in her high school class, and my husband is a favorite teacher there. Still, her non-LDS friends from home who have known her and our family for a good part of their lives are sending her on-line messages questioning her relationship with the sect.
As for the confusion on the part of the judge, I'm not surprised. My daughter currently at BYU was well-known to be the only LDS student in her high school class, and my husband is a favorite teacher there. Still, her non-LDS friends from home who have known her and our family for a good part of their lives are sending her on-line messages questioning her relationship with the sect.
Mohan | 6:41 a.m. April 22, 2008
Interesting dilemma. What would you do? The LDS Church has just made a
concerted effort to emphasize the differences between their culture and
teachings and those of the FLDS, and directly in the wake of that effort they
are now asked to step in and assist a people in need, albeit apostates from
their own beliefs to boot. Sure the test comes from a judge ignorant of the
differences, but what does that matter? If the LDS Church agrees to assist,
then the separation effort could be for naught and the two would again be lumped
together. If they don't extend a helping hand, they would be acting
counter to their natural inclination. How the Lord loves to test us in the most
interesting ways.
think we should help | 6:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
We, as Latter-Day Saints, ought not to be so concerned what everybody thinks
about this. If we are asked to help out we would do more good by being willing
to help out, instead of worrying about what everybody thinks. Goodness and
dependability will do more for us in the long run then having a perfect image.
Even Jesus was willing to associate with people who were considered sinners by
society
Debbie | 6:48 a.m. April 22, 2008
Scary!! Now they are monitoring the prayers!! And what about taking away the
women's cellphones because they complained about the living conditions and
took pictures with the phones as evidence of what they were alleging. What
happen to freedom? Sounds like the State of Texas is afraid of others finding
out about their nazi tactics. These women were not in jail!!!!
Re: | 6:43 a.m. April 22, 2008
They are connected: Same bibles and same doctrine. Maybe LDS does not practice
polygamy but it still appears in the doctrine. There needs to be constant
monitoring to prevent coaching and endoctrinating. Judge Pretty Smart!
LDS | 6:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
Obviously, there is still a failure of understanding, even after over 100 years
since polygamy has been outlawed by the LDS church. Why doesn't the judge
ask those nice Baptist folks who lent the state their vans and facilities? That
would make just as much sense. The LDS church isn't any more closely
related to this rogue group than any other Christian denomination. Jeesh!
SLC gal | 6:51 a.m. April 22, 2008
The church has helped non members countless times during natural disasters. Well
the only difference is this is a man made disaster, and the church as the
opportunity to help. I can see the branch president's point wanting to
check with church headquarters, but I'd volunteer if I were down there.
Mary | 6:56 a.m. April 22, 2008
The prayers have to be monitored if they include contact between adult and
child. Just as any other contact would be monitored. I appreciate that a
prayer is personal and private, but if they are not monitored, then what would
stop the adult from having a few non-prayer moments before or after or instead
of the prayer that is being given. I am LDS, and I am a CPS worker from another
state. Why doesn't the court find a CPS worker who is either LDS or FLDS
or knowlegeable of the LDS or FLDS beliefs and tenets monitor the prayers. I
agree that the parents should be allowed to pray with their children (if we knew
which parent went with each child), but it would be wrong to ask a non-CPS
worker to monitor these. I would even volunteer to come down there to supervise
them. As both an act of kindness for the parents and as a CPS worker who wants
to protect children.
Also baffled | 6:57 a.m. April 22, 2008
True, our ways parted long ago, and there is much that now differentiates LDS
from FLDS; however, we do have common roots, and if any other group out there is
likely to share some common ground that these mothers and children can relate
to, it ought to be us. The article did quote the judge as saying she realized we
were a different church. She is just trying to find someone that both the FLDS
and the state feel they can trust to represent their interests.
I find it something of a compliment that the judge would consider us as people able to fairly and honestly serve by assisting in this way. I am baffled that the local leaders are baffled by the request. Did they think the state would bring the men from YFZ to supervise prayers, or former members who might have strong emotional or family ties to the situation? Not likely!
I find it something of a compliment that the judge would consider us as people able to fairly and honestly serve by assisting in this way. I am baffled that the local leaders are baffled by the request. Did they think the state would bring the men from YFZ to supervise prayers, or former members who might have strong emotional or family ties to the situation? Not likely!
Anonymous | 7:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
I don't get the monitoring of prayer session, you better have one person
per mother to make sure they don't talk to the children, how about
enlisting the prosecutor and his entourage.
Why submit this task on another religious group. So if someone talks to their children it can be pinned on the LDS church allowing such.
The judge is still living in the backcountry!
Why submit this task on another religious group. So if someone talks to their children it can be pinned on the LDS church allowing such.
The judge is still living in the backcountry!
Bob | 7:10 a.m. April 22, 2008
Might be a good opportunity to get a little----oh I don't know---MISSIONARY
WORK--done. Hmmmmm.
NCMormon | 7:16 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm just an ole' country boy from the mountains of North Carolina but
I wouldn't take to kindly to someone monitoring my prayers. Seems I
remember something in a special document about freedom of religion. As a member
of the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I find this request at the
least a little strange, especially from a judge.
michael texas lds | 7:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
I say bravo it will make the transition for these people alot easier
Seems reasonable | 7:16 a.m. April 22, 2008
My opinion is that the judge is simply trying to make a compromise. People have
the right to pray. Children have the right to learn to pray. A mother often
plays a significant role in teaching children to pray, kneeling with her child.
On the other side, tampering with witnesses is a serious crime and can
jeopardize the intentions of Texas to protect these children. The investigation
is currently under way. The judge is trying to grant permission for mothers to
continue to kneel in prayer with their children without providing a situation
that can bring into question the integrity of the investigation. If asked, I
would certainly welcome the opportunity to protect the state's
investigation and the rights of mothers and their children to continue their
daily tradition of kneeling in prayer together. A person monitoring the prayers
can only serve to protect the state and the FLDS families, especially the
innocent. I choose not to read any more into this story than that.
Darrel | 7:19 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think it an excellent idea that we help our fellow brethren in Christ. The
LDS Church in its history has helped out other churches several times. They
even allow Baptists to hold meetings in our Seminary building, so why not help
out the community. As stated before the LDS church was only asked to supervise
(which I find terribly disturbing that they cannot even practice their religion)
not participate. Even if they were asked to participate so what? The important
part of prayer is the communication with God, not the how's and the
what's. He loves us all, and each supplication to Him is as important as
the next. While I may not agree with some of what they practice, their right
to pray is undeniable, and worth fighting for. People in this church may have
done some terrible things, but who am I to deny their right to pray? The Church
should be honored that it was even considered to be a part of this.
Annoyed | 7:23 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm so tired of people equating FLDS with LDS. So not the same.
Virginia | 7:23 a.m. April 22, 2008
Everyones focusing here on the prayers not the children under 2 years old. These
children can not tell of abuse they're not even speaking in complete
sentences yet. Pediatricians will tell you it's in these children's
best interests to continue breast feeding and since mothers can't sway
children unable to report abuse in the first place leave them together.
JohnB | 7:23 a.m. April 22, 2008
It is amazing to me being on the outside looking in that Mormons are always so
worried about what others think of them. I see this in my neighborhood and at
work. What does it matter what the world thinks of them? Whatever happened to
love the sinner and not the sin? Serve thy neighbor without having stipulations
put on it.
ediddy | 7:24 a.m. April 22, 2008
I agree that the LDS chhurch should be of compassionate service before during
and after being asked, but when will the capricious Judge Walther blur the line
between assisting and abetting? AND, when did monitoting prayers become a
function of the DCFS, the courts and the government in this land of the free and
the home of the brave? I say againg that this action is a violation of too many
constitutional protections. It creeps slowly from one abuse to the next. So many
of you posting will cry that all is fair in protecting the children and claim
that I support and foster abuse, but this next effort by the judge in the name
of "helping" the situation blurs the line between church and state.
Where are the separationists hiding now??
Plus, I can hardly wait until the allegations fly that the LDS are in cahoots against the DCFS. Judge Walther exacerbated this mess, should have recused herself from the custody hearing and continues to meddle in affairs of unconstitutional behavior on the part of the state of Texas. Everything is big in Texas, including its ego and screwups.
Plus, I can hardly wait until the allegations fly that the LDS are in cahoots against the DCFS. Judge Walther exacerbated this mess, should have recused herself from the custody hearing and continues to meddle in affairs of unconstitutional behavior on the part of the state of Texas. Everything is big in Texas, including its ego and screwups.
Carol H | 7:29 a.m. April 22, 2008
reuel: You assume what & why "LDS" people do what they do. I, for
one, would do whatever I could to help if it became necessary and possible. It
has nothing to do with hair dos, dress, or behavior; but it has everything to do
with them telling the truth and doing what is best for the children. It matters
that the FLDS women do what is legal and honest, but the media and other readers
portray them as liers. Only God knows them.
I do agree that some want to lump us together with polygamists, Many people in our nation still think we believe in plural marriage, and some believe that we have horns and worship Satan. None of the above is true, but people don't want to take time to learn what we believe. Some Christians of other faths do not believe that we are Christians, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Regarding Joseph Smith: We do now and always will follow his teachings; and we honor him as the Prophet of the Restoration. No one has to agree with our beliefs, but we have the right to practice them, including service to others.
I do agree that some want to lump us together with polygamists, Many people in our nation still think we believe in plural marriage, and some believe that we have horns and worship Satan. None of the above is true, but people don't want to take time to learn what we believe. Some Christians of other faths do not believe that we are Christians, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Regarding Joseph Smith: We do now and always will follow his teachings; and we honor him as the Prophet of the Restoration. No one has to agree with our beliefs, but we have the right to practice them, including service to others.
Me an Der | 7:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
So much to consider... To request LDS assistance without asking and receiving
responses from both parties is strange.. One might question another's
understanding of how to deal with people, unless there are other motives not
expressed. It could be ignorance or purposeful entrapment. OR, it might even
indicate that the judge just can't trust the CPS workers and doesn't
know how to work around that problem. Lots to consider before flying off the
handle with pronouncements and judgements. Fortunately, it appears from the
very sketchy reporting that there are some attorneys seeking to maintain the
rights of their clients. Now we have a bunch of groups (the church, the moms,
the police, the CPS, the attorneys, THE MEDIA, the public and the judge)
strutting around wrestling with this matter and through it all hopefully it
will work out for the best. Fortunately we don't have a king to decide it
all.
DW | 7:31 a.m. April 22, 2008
As a member of the LDS Church, I don't think we should be involved in this
process whatsoever. It is a government operation and our Church has nothing to
do with determining, "buffering", monitoring, or assuring these folks
rights. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...
I hope the FLDS will be treated with respect and dignity, but after a concerted effort to distinguish ourselves from the FLDS and to diminish misconceptions propagated by the media, why would we want to blur the line once again?! In this society of guilt by association, the safest tactic is to remain disassociated.
I hope the FLDS will be treated with respect and dignity, but after a concerted effort to distinguish ourselves from the FLDS and to diminish misconceptions propagated by the media, why would we want to blur the line once again?! In this society of guilt by association, the safest tactic is to remain disassociated.
To: .Seems reasonable | 7:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
Very well spoken. I agree with you. What a humbling honor to accept such a
request to be of service.
Charlee | 7:32 a.m. April 22, 2008
How about this -- Africans in custody may need supervision, but we can't
bring any in ... how about a Haitian? Duh....
cynical | 7:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge KNOWS the LDS are different than the FLDS and that is precisely why
the judge wants the LDS monitoring "prayertime" that can translate to
"don't tell CPS the truth time." Since the Baptists do not know
the Book of Mormon, they would be at a disadvantage for "catching" the
feeding of information adult to child.
And for the person that previously posted that "many Texans are Christians, but some are Catholic", Catholics ARE indeed CHRISTIANS and your religion sprang forth from those Catholics.
And for the person that previously posted that "many Texans are Christians, but some are Catholic", Catholics ARE indeed CHRISTIANS and your religion sprang forth from those Catholics.
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Attorney Julie Balovich, representing FLDS mothers whose children were taken from the YFZ compound, speaks to the media after a hearing at the Tom Green County Courthouse in San Angelo. She wants to reunite children and mothers.
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We should drill more and lower the price globally for oil. Fine build nuclear...
No I don't own a poster of shirtless Jacob - but there is a huge difference...
Gary, What nonsense! Specify the emails that "prove" deception. You...
if you guys don't think soccer is a sport? then what do you consider a sport?...
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