Reader comments
Tally of FLDS children jumps from 416 to 437
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Eye Dee Ten Tee | 1:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
Typical government efficiency. Chuck E. Cheese can keep track of children. Texas
C'P'S cannot.
Ellen | 2:43 a.m. April 22, 2008
Will the next step be to tattoo the arms, or will a micro chip be inserted to
make sure the body and the number match?
Anonymous | 3:55 a.m. April 22, 2008
Ka ching, Ka ching. This is costing the taxpayers a ton of money. But
it's all for the good of the children. Right?
Comments continue below
L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 5:19 a.m. April 22, 2008
"It will take about 30 days to receive results, maybe a little
longer," said Janece Rolfe of the Texas Attorney General's Office.
Just watch this "30 days" turn into 3 months . . . .
Just watch this "30 days" turn into 3 months . . . .
Anonymous | 5:52 a.m. April 22, 2008
It was because some of the mothers were actually younger than they first
thought.
russ | 6:15 a.m. April 22, 2008
Good job Texas. Just keep moving toward the goal of protecting the children.
DNA results will take a while, but by then maybe a few people will have
confessed, fessed up, etc.
Keep the wheels of justice moving and let us see where they lead.
Keep the wheels of justice moving and let us see where they lead.
doug | 6:16 a.m. April 22, 2008
Keep moving forward Texas. Utah and AZ did not have the guts to do what you are
doing.
thompson | 6:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
If they don't even have accurate numbers, how are they sure that each child
is being taken care of?
Re:Eye Dee Ten Tee | 6:31 a.m. April 22, 2008
Continue to fault the State. You must understand everyone in this Compound is
lying about every aspect of this case and it takes time to weave through the
Lies. They LIE about everything from their age to their name. Both Change
Frequently. I would certainly trust my children more With Chuck E. Cheese than
the FLDS
its_Chet | 6:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
We can't expect them to get an accurate count of the children, but we can
expect them to know what's best for them and see that it happens?
These kids are in a lot of trouble.
These kids are in a lot of trouble.
Say Avoir to US CONSTITUTION | 6:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
These officials are violating every known constitutional right in order to take
these children away. They have so far violated the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th
amendments. Please dear CPS, please find a way to violate the law.
Freedom of Religion, out the door, Search and Seizure, out the door, Right to Jury, out the door, Right not to incriminate self, out the door, cruel and UNUSUAL punishment, out the door.
This judge better be disbarred and imprisoned under statutes of treason.
Freedom of Religion, out the door, Search and Seizure, out the door, Right to Jury, out the door, Right not to incriminate self, out the door, cruel and UNUSUAL punishment, out the door.
This judge better be disbarred and imprisoned under statutes of treason.
Anonymous | 6:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
So what hapened to just counting heads ?What does the birthdate or name have to
do with counting? When you serve dinner don't you have to hand out 437 cups
437 plates 437 spoons etc.Or are you not feeding some kids.
Anonymous | 6:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
So are my comments not being posted because I have a URL?
DeLaval Milker | 7:06 a.m. April 22, 2008
And don't forget that this lot is not forthcoming with cooperation, either.
With little documentation, and a willingness to lie and obfuscate about who they
are and whom their parents are...the truth will not come easily.
David | 7:22 a.m. April 22, 2008
Head count is changing because ages are changing. One time the woman says she
is 16, the next time she claims to be 19. In one count she is a minor, the next
an adult. They know how many people they have but the minor count is subject to
change based on the lie of the day by the FLDS.
As far as number of spoons and plates, hygiene dictates , that when a person goes through the food line a second time they are given a fresh plate. They may also opt for new silverware. Or would you suggest they only be permitted one trip to the food line? Since many seem so very thin, I think they be allowed to eat until they feel full, even if that translates to 3 plates.
As far as number of spoons and plates, hygiene dictates , that when a person goes through the food line a second time they are given a fresh plate. They may also opt for new silverware. Or would you suggest they only be permitted one trip to the food line? Since many seem so very thin, I think they be allowed to eat until they feel full, even if that translates to 3 plates.
Gena | 7:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
Even when the provide certified birth certificates, driver's licenses and
tax returns to prove they are adults, CPS doesn't believe them. What else
are they supposed to do to show who they are??
CA | 7:30 a.m. April 22, 2008
They are worried about the DNA being used for criminal charges? Great! They
should be. Bigamy is illegal, especiall when the "celestial bride" is
13, 14, 15.
Keep up the good work, Texas!!
Keep up the good work, Texas!!
Not Trustworthy | 7:48 a.m. April 22, 2008
"What else are they supposed to do to show who they are??"
It could be that they've given so much false and misleading information that they've demonstrated that they're not trustworthy.
It could be that they've given so much false and misleading information that they've demonstrated that they're not trustworthy.
Re:Gina | 7:52 a.m. April 22, 2008
Have you seen "Certified Birth Certificates, Drivers License and Tax
Returns"? I think NOT! Because these items all come from the government
like a Marriage License. I don't think they apply for any of these
documents.
Matthew | 7:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
So I am to assume that some of the people posting here would have also advocated
that the Jews be cooperative with the Nazis.
When someone is trammeling on ones rights, one need not cooperate.
Texas "has the guts" to violate the US Constitution. That's rich.
It will be interesting to see what the DNA folks can do with all these samples from all closely related people that are admittedly rather inbred. I think it will be a little tougher than they are thinking. Of course I don't see any reason to trust them to be honest or competent either one so maybe it won't be interesting at all.
When someone is trammeling on ones rights, one need not cooperate.
Texas "has the guts" to violate the US Constitution. That's rich.
It will be interesting to see what the DNA folks can do with all these samples from all closely related people that are admittedly rather inbred. I think it will be a little tougher than they are thinking. Of course I don't see any reason to trust them to be honest or competent either one so maybe it won't be interesting at all.
Anonymous | 7:58 a.m. April 22, 2008
Yes Texas, keep doing what AZ and UT didn't have the guts to do.....violate
the Constitution.
Red | 8:01 a.m. April 22, 2008
As they say in Texas, "liking math and being good at it are three different
things."
Someone at the door of each bus as detainees boarded, and again as they got off at the detainment facility, could have provided a double-checked body count. Sorting bodies into moms and kids might take a little more work, but the overall count should have been known from the start.
It's all academic, though. Nursing babies, according to Texas, are in "imminent danger" of physical or sexual abuse. That's why they have to be ripped from their mothers' bosoms and placed with new "moms."
The fix is in. The kids' fate has already been determined; parents' custody will be terminated, and they will be permanently placed elsewhere. Texas is just going through the motions -- while fishing for grounds to prosecute the parents -- to provide a fig-leaf of technical "legality" for its predetermined, evidence-free conclusion.
Someone at the door of each bus as detainees boarded, and again as they got off at the detainment facility, could have provided a double-checked body count. Sorting bodies into moms and kids might take a little more work, but the overall count should have been known from the start.
It's all academic, though. Nursing babies, according to Texas, are in "imminent danger" of physical or sexual abuse. That's why they have to be ripped from their mothers' bosoms and placed with new "moms."
The fix is in. The kids' fate has already been determined; parents' custody will be terminated, and they will be permanently placed elsewhere. Texas is just going through the motions -- while fishing for grounds to prosecute the parents -- to provide a fig-leaf of technical "legality" for its predetermined, evidence-free conclusion.
New math | 8:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
Lack of an accurate head count is an indication of the incompetence shown by
Texas. Let�s see: if you have 13 people in one location, 17
at another, and 27 at another... Let�s see. 13 + 17 + 27
... wait, carry the one... no wait. Let�s see. Um, addition
is not the same when you count people. I�ve got it! The
number of children subtracted by the First amendment, Fourth amendment, Fifth
Amendment, and Eighth amendment equals zero. See it all balances out. The judge
has bitten off more then she or anyone else can handle and the kids are
suffering. There must be a better way.
CA | 8:05 a.m. April 22, 2008
Gena- it would be of great help if they did those things, but they have not. In
fact, the have been activly trying to confuse the numbers by changing their
names and swapping children between interviews.
Gena invents news | 8:14 a.m. April 22, 2008
Where in the article does it say they provided birth certificates, driver's
licenses and tax returns?
Re: Not Trustworthy | 8:29 a.m. April 22, 2008
Would you trust the government that took your suckling child at gunpoint solely
on an anonymous tip?
Re: New Math | 8:33 a.m. April 22, 2008
Let's Figure this the way the CPS workers are having to do it. We have 416
children..oops now 5 adults just got younger and we have 421 children...oops 5
more adults just got younger and we have 426 children...oops 11 more adults just
got younger and we have 437 children. You can not accurately count apples until
they stop falling off the tree or you go up and pick them.
Matt in Tucson | 8:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
You do not need "cooperation" to count detainees at a re-education
camp. You take their cell phones away but still can't get an accurate
count? Incredible. If CPS can't be trusted to count inmates, how can you
really trust the rest of their claims?
Remember, Evangelicals have been "brainwashed" to believe that Mormons are a cult. This despite the fact that LDS, FLDS, Catholics, and probably most of the other groups they label "cults" and persecute do everything the Evangelicals say you need to do to be saved.
Though CPS and the judge say this isn't about religion, when you take away infants because of a "system of belief" it is about religion. The Evangelicals are either lying about their intentions, or are so ingrained in the anti-Mormon brainwashing of their churches that they are in denial of their own bigotry. Jim Crow Justice.
Remember, Evangelicals have been "brainwashed" to believe that Mormons are a cult. This despite the fact that LDS, FLDS, Catholics, and probably most of the other groups they label "cults" and persecute do everything the Evangelicals say you need to do to be saved.
Though CPS and the judge say this isn't about religion, when you take away infants because of a "system of belief" it is about religion. The Evangelicals are either lying about their intentions, or are so ingrained in the anti-Mormon brainwashing of their churches that they are in denial of their own bigotry. Jim Crow Justice.
Thank you Red | 8:54 a.m. April 22, 2008
For the laugh of the day. I wish the humor translated to common sense, but that
would be oxymoronic.
MATT | 8:57 a.m. April 22, 2008
Its too bad it costs so much to remove deviates out of our society.
I hope they get the DNA from all the FLDS men who are the biggest problem. I'm surprised how many of FLDS post on these blogs with all their propaganda.
The FLDS men do a lot of wife stealing and swapping to some degree, so some of these woman may have children by different men. What a truly big mess!
I hope they get the DNA from all the FLDS men who are the biggest problem. I'm surprised how many of FLDS post on these blogs with all their propaganda.
The FLDS men do a lot of wife stealing and swapping to some degree, so some of these woman may have children by different men. What a truly big mess!
Ok Ok | 9:07 a.m. April 22, 2008
So you're telling me the wives popped out another 21 babies in the time
that the raid happened? Huh? Now that's efficiency!
Franklin | 9:08 a.m. April 22, 2008
The comments here and in previous stories break two ways: View One: The FLDS
parents and children are innocent victims whose rights are being trampled on,
with the children being unnecessarily traumatized, OR, View Two: The FLDS
parents are clearly guilty of child abuse, and deserve to have their children
taken away by whatever means necessary.
Here is View Three: While the parents may have abused underage girls by marrying them off into polygamist households, that is all the more reason to uphold their basic rights. Because when we abrogate rights for others based on our certainty of guilt or our outrage at the supposed crime, we open the door to losing our own rights.
And what rights could we lose if the FLDS parents lose theirs?
Rights to be considered innocent until proven guilty; practice our religion; receive due process if accused of a crime; speak freely; have, in the absence of imminent danger, control over our children unless abuse or neglect is proven; freedom from unreasonable searches; and habeas corpus (relief from unlawful detention).
There arguably is evidence that Texas Protective Services, law enforcement, and the local court have mishandled each and every one of these rights.
Here is View Three: While the parents may have abused underage girls by marrying them off into polygamist households, that is all the more reason to uphold their basic rights. Because when we abrogate rights for others based on our certainty of guilt or our outrage at the supposed crime, we open the door to losing our own rights.
And what rights could we lose if the FLDS parents lose theirs?
Rights to be considered innocent until proven guilty; practice our religion; receive due process if accused of a crime; speak freely; have, in the absence of imminent danger, control over our children unless abuse or neglect is proven; freedom from unreasonable searches; and habeas corpus (relief from unlawful detention).
There arguably is evidence that Texas Protective Services, law enforcement, and the local court have mishandled each and every one of these rights.
reason | 9:14 a.m. April 22, 2008
416 minor children and X number of adults can be converted to more minors if the
"adults" lied and were not over 18 years of age.
The DNA and other exams will help show the real age of these young mothers.
If parents lie to CPS to protect themselves, CPS can only assume that they as parents are NOT looking out for the best interests of the children only their own best interests.
Would you prefer that all the infants, toddlers, and young male children be returned to drink the Kool-Aid? What do you think the mother meant when she said, they (not she) could not have lived one more day if they had known what would happen?
Oh and to the UT AZ bashers...the FLDS leader is in jail because he was convicted of Rape as an accomplice for the forced marriage and resulting sex of a 14 year old girl. The "best" FLDS faithful went to Texas to escape the rules in UT and AZ. The information Texas has would be incomplete without the help of other states.
The DNA and other exams will help show the real age of these young mothers.
If parents lie to CPS to protect themselves, CPS can only assume that they as parents are NOT looking out for the best interests of the children only their own best interests.
Would you prefer that all the infants, toddlers, and young male children be returned to drink the Kool-Aid? What do you think the mother meant when she said, they (not she) could not have lived one more day if they had known what would happen?
Oh and to the UT AZ bashers...the FLDS leader is in jail because he was convicted of Rape as an accomplice for the forced marriage and resulting sex of a 14 year old girl. The "best" FLDS faithful went to Texas to escape the rules in UT and AZ. The information Texas has would be incomplete without the help of other states.
Re:Red | 9:17 a.m. April 22, 2008
Said well, thank you.
Also, did the CPS do a background check on all their volunteers? I think the children might be in more danger now then they ever were before. Foster care is not the answer, more abuse there than at the YFZ ranch, just look at the statistics.
Also, did the CPS do a background check on all their volunteers? I think the children might be in more danger now then they ever were before. Foster care is not the answer, more abuse there than at the YFZ ranch, just look at the statistics.
Anonymous | 9:30 a.m. April 22, 2008
The Texas AG stated the search of the FLDS compound was in "Good
Faith" and therfore legal. The Judge then ruled any challenges to the
"good faith" search is premature and will not be considered. After
these "Kangaroo" proceeding the Court is gathering DNA evidence with
criminal process in their crosshairs while holding the chilren as leverage.
"Good Faith" requires "clean hands" both in what the police
collectively knew and what they should have known. There was no "good
faith" but gathering the telephone recordings of the fraudulent
"Sarah" calls and trace results the state is building barriers from
anyone obtaining. I have no affiliation with any church but police abuse
strongly offends me.
Debbie | 9:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
When it's all over, I certainly hope any nursing mothers sue the state for
putting their children at risk by forced weaning. There are known dangers in
NOT Breastfeeding. One goal of the Healthy People 2010 initiative is to
increase breastfeeding initiation and duration. Taking a nursing child, who is
not in known imminent danger, from its mother, giving it a substitute - both as
nurturer and artificial food - is definitely putting the child and mother at
health risk to say nothing of the interference with bonding, which puts the
child at further psychological risk, while claiming protection.
Punish the offenders; not the victims. What a debacle this is. Where is the Governor (what is his name - Boggs)?
This is such a classic example of CPS out of control and it puts all families in danger when they are allowed free reign without regard to rights. I do not defend breaking laws. Underage marriage is (punish those). But, the roundup is like World War II disasters including Nazi Germany and "Relocation Camps" for the Japanese Americans.
Warning to all parents if Government doesn't begin to better oversee CPS - if you are approached by CPS, lock the door.
Punish the offenders; not the victims. What a debacle this is. Where is the Governor (what is his name - Boggs)?
This is such a classic example of CPS out of control and it puts all families in danger when they are allowed free reign without regard to rights. I do not defend breaking laws. Underage marriage is (punish those). But, the roundup is like World War II disasters including Nazi Germany and "Relocation Camps" for the Japanese Americans.
Warning to all parents if Government doesn't begin to better oversee CPS - if you are approached by CPS, lock the door.
A Police State? | 9:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
The Texas AG ruled the search of the FLDS compound was in "Good Faith"
and therfore legal. The Judge then ruled any challenges to the "good
faith" search is premature and will not be considered. After these
"Kangaroo" proceeding the Court is gathering DNA evidence with
criminal process in their crosshairs while holding the chilren as leverage.
"Good Faith" requires "clean hands" both in what the police
collectively knew and what they should have known. There was no "good
faith" but gathering the telephone recordings of the fraudulent
"Sarah" calls and trace results the state is building barriers from
anyone obtaining. I have no affiliation with any church but police abuse
strongly offends me.
Re: Not Trustworthy | 9:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
"Would you trust the government that took your suckling child at gunpoint
solely on an anonymous tip?"
If you choose to ignore 99% of the events of this case, yeah, you could come to that conclusion.
Kinda like believing Watergate was based "solely on an anonymous tip."
If you choose to ignore 99% of the events of this case, yeah, you could come to that conclusion.
Kinda like believing Watergate was based "solely on an anonymous tip."
Hey Franklin | 9:55 a.m. April 22, 2008
Where do you derive a "right" to sexually abuse and at times include
incest? I hate to break this to you, but NOBODY had the "right" to
commit ritual sacrifice either.
Anonymous | 9:51 a.m. April 22, 2008
"Rulon" and his co-horts appeared on an early morning CBS show
commenting that "they were reconsidering whether girls under 18 should have
sex with adult men. Many of us were not even aware that there was such a
law". If they were not aware, how is it that their communities are
purposely isolated? Not allowing tvs or newspapers keep them insulated also. I
would believe them, except these old geezers want the girls for themselves.
Robin | 9:54 a.m. April 22, 2008
How do you all know so much about what is happening? If everything posted here
is to be believed, one would learn more from all these posts than one would ever
learn from the articles. Are some of you the workers there or the detainees?
It is amazing how everyone has so much information and is able to judge either
side so accurately.
E Plurus Unum | 9:54 a.m. April 22, 2008
As the Facts have come out this has become more and more disturbing. This is
the United States not Iran. But Iranian women have more rights and freedom than
the FLDS women. I can't stand the FLDS beliefs but if their basic rights
as citizens can be violated based on a false accusation to 'protect the
children' then mine can be also.
The quote 'Texas had the guts to do what AZ and UT did not.' is galling in both it's ignorance and expossed hatred. Maybe Texas will also have the 'guts' to tattoo numbers on the arms of each of the kids and mothers - makes keeping track of the people and family relationships a lot easier. Maybe forcing them to sew little red circles on their clothes would make identifying them easier also. Both methods worked well for the Nazis.
The quote 'Texas had the guts to do what AZ and UT did not.' is galling in both it's ignorance and expossed hatred. Maybe Texas will also have the 'guts' to tattoo numbers on the arms of each of the kids and mothers - makes keeping track of the people and family relationships a lot easier. Maybe forcing them to sew little red circles on their clothes would make identifying them easier also. Both methods worked well for the Nazis.
ST. George | 10:07 a.m. April 22, 2008
Where is Porter Rockwell when you need him?
This Judge should meet him!!!
This Judge should meet him!!!
Phil | 10:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
"We were told a different name, different birth date every time we
asked," she said, admitting that the numbers could change again.
This is like a PR move, we claim we can't count because of them giving different birthdays. Well if you think about it their original number would have been bloated, not the new numbers. Same women would have giving multiple birth dates, so you would counted her twice. Counts would have gone down after they figured that this women was just one person instead of two. These Texas CPS people sure don't seem to be telling the truth.
This is like a PR move, we claim we can't count because of them giving different birthdays. Well if you think about it their original number would have been bloated, not the new numbers. Same women would have giving multiple birth dates, so you would counted her twice. Counts would have gone down after they figured that this women was just one person instead of two. These Texas CPS people sure don't seem to be telling the truth.
Re: Franklin | 10:05 a.m. April 22, 2008
Are children second class citizens?
If the parents are willing co-conspirators in abrogating the basic rights of their children, doesn't the state have an obligation to step in to protect those rights?
How do you prove neglect and abuse without a full investigation?
If the parents are willing co-conspirators in abrogating the basic rights of their children, doesn't the state have an obligation to step in to protect those rights?
How do you prove neglect and abuse without a full investigation?
Anonymous | 10:23 a.m. April 22, 2008
The irony of the men patroling in unmarked police cars around the compund
isn't lost on me.
Not Dan | 10:19 a.m. April 22, 2008
Don't these officials use wrist bands like at the hospital to positively
identify these children? At least with a number? But that also sounds like what
the nazis did with the Jews. Tattoos. Wrong generation. But still they need to
keep records at least from the day they were abducted.
Counting them? How about you count the feet and divide by 2?
These are individual American people, with individual inalienable rights. Hearding them through an overworked underpaid judge who is trying to deal with these individuals on a wholesale basis is just wrong.
Watch this. There is no way for this to turn out positively. And in 10 years we will all look back and be able to say, "Why didn't they see that?" or "How could this have happened in the United States in this day and age."
Counting them? How about you count the feet and divide by 2?
These are individual American people, with individual inalienable rights. Hearding them through an overworked underpaid judge who is trying to deal with these individuals on a wholesale basis is just wrong.
Watch this. There is no way for this to turn out positively. And in 10 years we will all look back and be able to say, "Why didn't they see that?" or "How could this have happened in the United States in this day and age."
Counting? | 10:21 a.m. April 22, 2008
Okay, so these Texas CPS claim that these women were telling them new birth
dates every time. So originally one women could have giving three different
names, so you counted her three times. Then you figure out she was lying and
then you now only count here once. So your new number goes down. The numbers
are going up, not down. Who is telling the truth here, DEFINITELY NOT TEXAS.
Religious Freedom? | 10:35 a.m. April 22, 2008
The FLDS are obviously lying to avoid charges of welfare fraud, tax evasion,
bigamy as well as statuary rape. These people can't hide behind their
religion when they are committing criminal acts.
Are all religions safe from the law? The bible states that it's proper to stone a person to death for working on Sunday.
Are all religions safe from the law? The bible states that it's proper to stone a person to death for working on Sunday.
Hey Red | 10:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
You have logic issue and seem to miss the whole point of the article. The
article discusses the counting issue to prove the pervasive lying within the
FLDS community even if you missed that. If a person claims they are 19, they
are counted as an adult. If that same person claims at the next count to be 17,
they are counted as a child. So yes, I expect the numbers to change EVERY time
they are counted even if they know the grand total in attendance.
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More than a dozen Texas State Troopers meet Monday at the San Angelo Coliseum where 437 FLDS children have been held.
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