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Texas LDS deal with confusion
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to all anti | 5:36 p.m. April 21, 2008
hahaha. i can play your game. The KKK and the Catholics both teach out of the
same bible. Does that mean they're the same??? Give us a break.
wallyworld | 5:37 p.m. April 21, 2008
If you took a poll among the LDS men and women, I'll bet you that in no
certin way would they say they are for polygamy. Those who are married know that
having one wife or husband is hard enough with all the nagging after nagging
about something else or another. What do you think it would be like to have it
coming at you in stereo or in surround sound??? and all of those "rug
rats"!!!!!Pleae give us a break!!!!!
To those who say we, the LDS, are not Christians, how would you feel if someone or a group of other Christians kept telling you that you were not Christian? You would NOT like it either would you??, But you all seem not to care how we , the LDS feel, so I guess that does not make you Christians either.
To those who say we, the LDS, are not Christians, how would you feel if someone or a group of other Christians kept telling you that you were not Christian? You would NOT like it either would you??, But you all seem not to care how we , the LDS feel, so I guess that does not make you Christians either.
Steve | 5:41 p.m. April 21, 2008
It is pretty obvious that the reason the LDS Church doesn't want the FLDS
to use the word Mormon is so that people are reminded of polygamy in the LDS
Church's past. Of course nobody alive in the LDS Church is responsible for
the FLDS Church's existence. That is obvious. But the connection problem
is different. The LDS Church doesn't want people to be reminded that it
had polygamy in its past, and the truth is that the way in which it terminated
polygamy really did cause these small offshoots (I don't know if it was
avoidable). The LDS Church has gone to great efforts to try to become more
accepted, like trying to use the name Christian. The LDS Church tried to
trademark Mormon in the USA, but the application was rejected. So, no, the LDS
Church does not "own" the word Mormon. The phrase Mormon
fundamentalist was coined by Mark E. Petersen, an LDS Church Apostle! Now the
LDS Church doesn't want them called that! It is a PR problem for the LDS
Church, but the real concern here is for these poor people, especially kids.
Comments continue below
Mormons are from Mars | 5:42 p.m. April 21, 2008
'the LDS church believes that polygamy will be practiced again
soon.'
WHAT?
If that is true, your meaningless 3 million active members will PALE in comparison to the 300 million Americans who will hold you accountable, remove your children, and throw your self proclaimed prophet in prison until you learn THE RULE OF LAW. It has taken you 150 years to garner a mere 3 million active members, most of which are in 3rd world countries. Mormons are rapidly becoming a minority even in Utah, and as science continues to shed real light on the fairytale book of mormon, it's truthfulness will continue to come under question- which is why it's been re-written so many times. You AREN'T the fastest growing church by any stretch- google it.
I was raised LDS and baptized by the brother of a prophet...then I went to college and grew a brain. This church will go the way of the quakers.
WHAT?
If that is true, your meaningless 3 million active members will PALE in comparison to the 300 million Americans who will hold you accountable, remove your children, and throw your self proclaimed prophet in prison until you learn THE RULE OF LAW. It has taken you 150 years to garner a mere 3 million active members, most of which are in 3rd world countries. Mormons are rapidly becoming a minority even in Utah, and as science continues to shed real light on the fairytale book of mormon, it's truthfulness will continue to come under question- which is why it's been re-written so many times. You AREN'T the fastest growing church by any stretch- google it.
I was raised LDS and baptized by the brother of a prophet...then I went to college and grew a brain. This church will go the way of the quakers.
BrerRrabit | 5:46 p.m. April 21, 2008
The next time you go to the store to pick up bread try coming home with an
English Muffen. Try convincing your wife that there's no difference. There
is little difference betwen some things but those difference are significant. In
the church we call it the "SPIRIT". That's what you descern the
things of God with. And if you don't have it you can not understand or
comprehend the things of God for His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and
his ways our ways. Dont try to explain Gods dealings with a carinal, mortal
(mans) spirit. The differences between LDS and FLDS may be little to some but
significant enough to justify the seperation. When the topic of poligamy comes
up again I'll tell you truth about its practice in the early days of the
church with fact not inuendo and some sort of hidden secret script, book, or
story that only a few non members know about.
Sad | 5:59 p.m. April 21, 2008
This whole case is about allegations of child abuse and, by extension, the
religious beliefs and practices of a small group of people that condone and
promote the alleged child abuse.
It's sad that a few people who have an unwarranted hatred of the LDS church, have used this blog to besmirch an entire, peaceful, law-abiding, family-centered, Christian church that has nothing to do with former members of the LDS church who broke from the church and started their own religion almost a century ago.
It's sad that a few people who have an unwarranted hatred of the LDS church, have used this blog to besmirch an entire, peaceful, law-abiding, family-centered, Christian church that has nothing to do with former members of the LDS church who broke from the church and started their own religion almost a century ago.
I agree with me | 6:03 p.m. April 21, 2008
You're all coming unglued on here. Settle down and smell the lovely
flowers. It's Spring!
To deal with confusion and contention is to deal with the devil. This whole ordeal is of the devil. Polygamy is of the devil as well. It has never and never will bring happiness, moral structure nor godliness into any womans life. Only a handful of lusty fellows believe this perversion. Also, Texas needs to go after the men instead of the woman. They are the true devils at work here.
To deal with confusion and contention is to deal with the devil. This whole ordeal is of the devil. Polygamy is of the devil as well. It has never and never will bring happiness, moral structure nor godliness into any womans life. Only a handful of lusty fellows believe this perversion. Also, Texas needs to go after the men instead of the woman. They are the true devils at work here.
FORMER UTAHAN | 6:04 p.m. April 21, 2008
I would like to let people know my opinion on the LDS & FLDS.When I moved to
Utah a few years ago my family wasnt nor will ever be Mormon,I discovered these
Mormons are some of the rudest people in the world,I had a 4th grade teacher in
St.George tell my youngest daughter she wasnt learning like the other kids
because her family wasnt Mormon,it doesnt matter what religion you are you can
still learn. Another thing that happened to my family is I had to take my oldest
daughter back to Missouri because the judge in Utah couldnt convience the
Missouri judges that the LDS & the FLDS were not the same religion so I had
to pack up & come back to Missouri due to my minor daughter, as the judge
said being at risk in a Polygamist state. I also know a woman that is a
convicted child abuser & a convicted Meth dealer that the LDS Church
provides food & money for bills each month so she can continue her drug
lifestyle,I know this for a fact because I am raising her children that the
state of Utah took from her
Agree with Sad | 6:18 p.m. April 21, 2008
From what it sounds like, a large number of people still think and believe
within the stone age era. I thought Americans would be more up to date and
better educated.
Anonymous | 6:29 p.m. April 21, 2008
The more I hear LDS members screeching that they're not the same as the
FLDS, the more I think they're deeply troubled about their own common past.
In Decline | 6:33 p.m. April 21, 2008
This is yet another sign that the Mormon church is in decline. In 2000 Boyd
Packer addressed Stake Presidents and said 'overall converts are in
freefall,' which is an understatement. This religion not only ISN'T
the fastest growing church in the world, it is in actual decline, it's only
growth being primarily in Latin America, where it still sees an overall decline
in conversions.
Even in Utah he church is becoming a minority. This FLDS debacle isn't helping.
So much for your 'truth'. You are a peculiar people. Perhaps abit too peculiar for your own good. Even the Quakers put Nixon in the White House, and they're all but vanished. The same is now being observed worldwide in the Mormon religion. It too is dwindling, and as much as the members want to bury their heads in the sand and not see the facts, soon they will have no alternative but to figure out they were fooled by the P.T. Barnum of prophets, Joseph Smith.
Even in Utah he church is becoming a minority. This FLDS debacle isn't helping.
So much for your 'truth'. You are a peculiar people. Perhaps abit too peculiar for your own good. Even the Quakers put Nixon in the White House, and they're all but vanished. The same is now being observed worldwide in the Mormon religion. It too is dwindling, and as much as the members want to bury their heads in the sand and not see the facts, soon they will have no alternative but to figure out they were fooled by the P.T. Barnum of prophets, Joseph Smith.
Brian | 6:50 p.m. April 21, 2008
This scandal will shake mormonism to it's very roots. The mormon church(es)
will likely suffer greatly from being exposed and may not, in fact, survive the
public scrutiny of this subject and other secretive beliefs that will be
unearthed.
Randy | 6:59 p.m. April 21, 2008
Well, looks like the Mormon church sects are all in decline. Start preaching
polygamy my fellow believers and see how far it takes you people. it's not
like a bunch of helpless woman in the wildness who need help. It's modern
times and most woman nowadays are educated and very independent of men. They are
the ones who choose their breeder...NOT YOU!
Freeman | 7:34 p.m. April 21, 2008
To in Decline,
So your standard of "truth" is based on percentages of Mormons in Utah and a decline in conversions around the world? What else did your chicken bones tell you?
To all those who are prophesying the downfall of the LDS religion over this or any other matter--don't hold your breath, unless, of course, you can hold it until the Second Coming...
So your standard of "truth" is based on percentages of Mormons in Utah and a decline in conversions around the world? What else did your chicken bones tell you?
To all those who are prophesying the downfall of the LDS religion over this or any other matter--don't hold your breath, unless, of course, you can hold it until the Second Coming...
Mark in Austin | 8:16 p.m. April 21, 2008
The only similarities to FLDS and LDS is the occasional picture and mention of
Joseph Smith. - thats it.
Most have agreed that the Fundamentalist Polygamist cult in West Texas resemble closer to traditional Southern Baptists than Mormon.
These women and children have no free agency, are subservient to their husband treated as like an animal with no infinite worth, bonded together in secret combinations, lying to authorities about their situation, Manipulators and liars for stealing taxpayers money to support their cause and are martyrs and victims brainwashed into thinking they are happy.
I blame the men
Time to break this up - -don't mess with Texas!
Most have agreed that the Fundamentalist Polygamist cult in West Texas resemble closer to traditional Southern Baptists than Mormon.
These women and children have no free agency, are subservient to their husband treated as like an animal with no infinite worth, bonded together in secret combinations, lying to authorities about their situation, Manipulators and liars for stealing taxpayers money to support their cause and are martyrs and victims brainwashed into thinking they are happy.
I blame the men
Time to break this up - -don't mess with Texas!
Gloria in Texas | 8:20 p.m. April 21, 2008
For people who are not familiar with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints, and who think that one and the other are the same, it is instructive to
know that there is no institutional connection. The Church does not have any
authority over the other group, nor does it bear any responsibility for apostate
groups such as the FLDS.
For those who hate the Church, the opportunity of shaming the good name of the Church is a delight. They would like nothing more that for everyone to think that all the bizarre behavior is part of our worship.
Elder Cook is right in stressing the difference in lifestyles, because "by their fruits ye shall know them." The Church produces people who are law abiding citizens, committed to God, family and country, living clean lives and contributing to the communities where they live. This is the exact opposite of people living in a secluded compound.
Elder Cook is right in pointing out how educated members are. President Hinckley stressed "Be smart" meaning, get all the education you can get.
I would love for our Church to go to CNN and other media to help clarify the confusion worldwide.
For those who hate the Church, the opportunity of shaming the good name of the Church is a delight. They would like nothing more that for everyone to think that all the bizarre behavior is part of our worship.
Elder Cook is right in stressing the difference in lifestyles, because "by their fruits ye shall know them." The Church produces people who are law abiding citizens, committed to God, family and country, living clean lives and contributing to the communities where they live. This is the exact opposite of people living in a secluded compound.
Elder Cook is right in pointing out how educated members are. President Hinckley stressed "Be smart" meaning, get all the education you can get.
I would love for our Church to go to CNN and other media to help clarify the confusion worldwide.
RE: Southern Mormon | 8:29 p.m. April 21, 2008
"...The smart people (and there are way too few) will hear and become
interested in finding out the truth about the church. The stupid and closed
minded among us will never listen to the missionaries. They believe that they
are "once saved, always saved" and no amount of logic or scriptural
verses will alter their opinions. So our jobs as members is to inform and make
people feel comfortable about the Gospel. We have no right to tear down their
beliefs, but they also have no mandate to destroy ours..."
We have no right to tear down their beliefs...but we shall call them 'stupid' because they understand the Bible differently than we do?
What about those of us that have kindly listened to the missionaries, then tried to discuss scripture with them, only to hear "I'm feeling a spirit of contention here" before they bug out down the street? If you listen and agree with them, you're 'smart', but otherwise, you're 'stupid'? haha
I praise Almighty God that I am not any part of that.
We have no right to tear down their beliefs...but we shall call them 'stupid' because they understand the Bible differently than we do?
What about those of us that have kindly listened to the missionaries, then tried to discuss scripture with them, only to hear "I'm feeling a spirit of contention here" before they bug out down the street? If you listen and agree with them, you're 'smart', but otherwise, you're 'stupid'? haha
I praise Almighty God that I am not any part of that.
Todd Bushman | 8:36 p.m. April 21, 2008
Congrats Uncle Jeff for making the paper! Great statement by the way.
John Lambert | 8:36 p.m. April 21, 2008
Re Family History,
The modern understanding of family history of being an attempt to trace biological and or real adoptive (as opposed to making up adoptive connection now) was not fully emphasized until 1894.
This was done by Wilford Woodruff who the FLDS do not accept to have been a prophet. I am not sure they do baptisms for the dead or other temple ordinances for the dead. It would seem to me that the FLDS do not really care about family history.
This seems to be a major difference between our churchs that is not a result of polygamy but is a result of Wilford Woodruff. Earlier there had been work done for the dead, and by Brigham Young's time for sure people were doing family history research, but only Wilford Woodruff made it clear that the goal should be for someone to connect with their own actual ancestors. Before that some people felt that it was better to connect with church leaders as ancestors. There is no evidence that anyone said this was the doctrine, but Wilford Woodruff was the first to clearify the matter, and those who reject Wilford Woodruff have gone the other way.
The modern understanding of family history of being an attempt to trace biological and or real adoptive (as opposed to making up adoptive connection now) was not fully emphasized until 1894.
This was done by Wilford Woodruff who the FLDS do not accept to have been a prophet. I am not sure they do baptisms for the dead or other temple ordinances for the dead. It would seem to me that the FLDS do not really care about family history.
This seems to be a major difference between our churchs that is not a result of polygamy but is a result of Wilford Woodruff. Earlier there had been work done for the dead, and by Brigham Young's time for sure people were doing family history research, but only Wilford Woodruff made it clear that the goal should be for someone to connect with their own actual ancestors. Before that some people felt that it was better to connect with church leaders as ancestors. There is no evidence that anyone said this was the doctrine, but Wilford Woodruff was the first to clearify the matter, and those who reject Wilford Woodruff have gone the other way.
Spike | 8:38 p.m. April 21, 2008
Considering that this topic has been the top story in UTAH since it began, it
seems that the Mormon church is very much part of this story.
John Lambert | 8:49 p.m. April 21, 2008
To follow up. At various times the leaders of the church have emphasized
that all holders of the priesthood hold the same power, and that the callings at
all levels are equally important.
What many fail to realize is that the church is structured but not hierarchical. People do not advance in rank in the church. A man who today is the bishop may be released and made a primary teacher for eight year olds. My mission president multiple times emphasized that senior companions, district leaders and zone leaders were callings and not ranks, and release was not demotion.
Thus a man like Jacob de Jager who served as a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, in the top 85 or less of church leaders, was given emeritus status and latter made one of 20,000 plus bishops in the church.
Yet people in the church still speak in terms of higher and lower callings, and I sometimes find myself thinking this way. At times it seems that the FLDS church has accepted a system where some are clearly above others. However, it is hard to know as an outsider.
What many fail to realize is that the church is structured but not hierarchical. People do not advance in rank in the church. A man who today is the bishop may be released and made a primary teacher for eight year olds. My mission president multiple times emphasized that senior companions, district leaders and zone leaders were callings and not ranks, and release was not demotion.
Thus a man like Jacob de Jager who served as a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, in the top 85 or less of church leaders, was given emeritus status and latter made one of 20,000 plus bishops in the church.
Yet people in the church still speak in terms of higher and lower callings, and I sometimes find myself thinking this way. At times it seems that the FLDS church has accepted a system where some are clearly above others. However, it is hard to know as an outsider.
Ohio Mormon | 8:49 p.m. April 21, 2008
Every religion has its break offs. Are we to believe that all Baptist stand
outside funerals and yell at the families of fallen soldiers. Using some of the
same logic I've just read then ALL Baptists hate America and are one
connected group.
People can choose to believe what they want but the LDS and FLDS are as associated just as all Baptist groups are associated.
Only uneducated and ignorant people would believe either.
People can choose to believe what they want but the LDS and FLDS are as associated just as all Baptist groups are associated.
Only uneducated and ignorant people would believe either.
Anonymous | 8:50 p.m. April 21, 2008
My sister-in-law grew up in the FLDS and we've had many conversations
regarding her childhood. She is currently in the process of trying to get
siblings taken away from her mother...Those who think there are little or no
differences between these two religions are strongly mistaken! All the
counseling in the world can't erase her childhood memories of her
father's child abuse. When she tried to seek help from her
"priesthood" leaders she was told she would be married (she was 12).
While I think that at least these people get married...how many "baby
daddies" are out there now! and how many people sleep around with out any
thought of a marriage commitment this is still against the law. Religious
freedom is protected in America...child molestion disguised as a religion is
not. If later on these children that have been taken away decide they truly
believe in this organization then after they are 18 by all means they should be
able to get married to multiple people...but at least that would be their
choice...their age appropriately made choice.
IGNORANCE | 8:57 p.m. April 21, 2008
When a man holds a knife to LDS missionaries I think it proves that there are
people who DON'T know the difference.
To say we are related is also ignorant.
We both read from the same book so there is connection enough to confuse people?
The LDS church knows there is a "connection" but it is small and old and irrelevant.
To say that a 'Mormon' and a Catholic are the same for both reading the Bible is as logical as the people who comment on here.
I have a right to live my religion and live a life without being harassed. This site is full of harassment and the DN should probably rethink it's comment system.
To say we are related is also ignorant.
We both read from the same book so there is connection enough to confuse people?
The LDS church knows there is a "connection" but it is small and old and irrelevant.
To say that a 'Mormon' and a Catholic are the same for both reading the Bible is as logical as the people who comment on here.
I have a right to live my religion and live a life without being harassed. This site is full of harassment and the DN should probably rethink it's comment system.
John Lambert | 9:01 p.m. April 21, 2008
Ozark Bubba has a very good point. The FLDS church did not adopt its current
name until 1991.
I know a girl who works as a nanny. The mother of the family claimed that as a Mormon this girl belongs to a church that practices polygamy and insisted she knew it to be true because of what she had seen on Oprah.
So yes, speak out and live your very best. However, also hound any news organization that does not go the full measure in explaining that the FLDS and a totally different church than the LDS.
However from reading some of these posts, I am afraid that such might turn into a bigger attack on the church than otherwise.
People used the Freedmen's Bank Project as a chance to call the church racists, so some in the newsmedia will stop at nothing to malign the church.
I know a girl who works as a nanny. The mother of the family claimed that as a Mormon this girl belongs to a church that practices polygamy and insisted she knew it to be true because of what she had seen on Oprah.
So yes, speak out and live your very best. However, also hound any news organization that does not go the full measure in explaining that the FLDS and a totally different church than the LDS.
However from reading some of these posts, I am afraid that such might turn into a bigger attack on the church than otherwise.
People used the Freedmen's Bank Project as a chance to call the church racists, so some in the newsmedia will stop at nothing to malign the church.
face it- decline | 9:02 p.m. April 21, 2008
um, 'In Decline' has it correctly.
Statistics are statistics, friends, like them or not. The Church, of which I am a member, IS in decline. The General Authorities have even spoken on the subject.
The major area of declination is female conversions. The Church, as an overall percentage of baptisms, has been DOWN in the last 5 years straight. NOT GOOD. Sorry to break the news to you but it is easily researched.
Statistics are statistics, friends, like them or not. The Church, of which I am a member, IS in decline. The General Authorities have even spoken on the subject.
The major area of declination is female conversions. The Church, as an overall percentage of baptisms, has been DOWN in the last 5 years straight. NOT GOOD. Sorry to break the news to you but it is easily researched.
JohnnyRudick | 9:08 p.m. April 21, 2008
Jeffs is a rat. I get it.
In any community of 200 today you may find child abuse. By what authority does government go in and haul off children to sift through them (and belongings) to find proof to justify their invasion?
Where is the authority? I just don't understand the law here. I get the emotional thing but is our law now based on what we "feel" today? Just a thought. Will the "law" now use this as a stepping stone to invade any community that has made enemy's?
In any community of 200 today you may find child abuse. By what authority does government go in and haul off children to sift through them (and belongings) to find proof to justify their invasion?
Where is the authority? I just don't understand the law here. I get the emotional thing but is our law now based on what we "feel" today? Just a thought. Will the "law" now use this as a stepping stone to invade any community that has made enemy's?
John Lambert | 9:08 p.m. April 21, 2008
If you think Mormon are complexed, do not try to understand the relationships
of Baptist or Methodists sects.
However a better example is the Catholics and the groups that have broken off from the Catholic Church in the last 140 or so years. The Old Catholics insist that they are right, because Papal Infalibility was pushed on the church in Vatican I. However some of the Old Catholic churches really exist because of specific disagreements in specific dioceses. There are also groups that broke off from the Catholic Church over Vatican II. Both these groups insist they hold more to the original church. So should we go around saying they held to the truth while others strayed in following the Pope?
Some might point out that in some cases some Catholics do identify with these breakaway groups. However since most male members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that are active hold the priesthood and most active sisters in the church hold callings as well, active members of the church have a higher level of affinity to the church than many Catholics do.
However a better example is the Catholics and the groups that have broken off from the Catholic Church in the last 140 or so years. The Old Catholics insist that they are right, because Papal Infalibility was pushed on the church in Vatican I. However some of the Old Catholic churches really exist because of specific disagreements in specific dioceses. There are also groups that broke off from the Catholic Church over Vatican II. Both these groups insist they hold more to the original church. So should we go around saying they held to the truth while others strayed in following the Pope?
Some might point out that in some cases some Catholics do identify with these breakaway groups. However since most male members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that are active hold the priesthood and most active sisters in the church hold callings as well, active members of the church have a higher level of affinity to the church than many Catholics do.
Comments should be... | 9:10 p.m. April 21, 2008
for members of the Church of Jeses Christ Latter-Day Saints only!The comments
are so far of base from the artilce at this point it is rediculious. The
comments should be limited to and reserved for kind and faith promoting
jestures. Non-member participantion should be limited or not existent in this
CHURCH owned publication. Thank you very much.
I'm worried | 9:10 p.m. April 21, 2008
re: in decline
I googled it and looked at the missionary conversions/ baptisms and it does appear that the Church is not baptizing as many converts as in years past, and as older members die off and fewer young members join, what will happen? Also, it states that more leave each year than are now being baptized. As far as 'fastest growing church' like i've always heard, we aren't even in the top 15. If we don't figure it out SOON we will be a church of 2 million active, then a million, half that, a couple thousand, then a footnote in history within 50-75 years. Time to face the music and quickly, folks, or we are finished.
I googled it and looked at the missionary conversions/ baptisms and it does appear that the Church is not baptizing as many converts as in years past, and as older members die off and fewer young members join, what will happen? Also, it states that more leave each year than are now being baptized. As far as 'fastest growing church' like i've always heard, we aren't even in the top 15. If we don't figure it out SOON we will be a church of 2 million active, then a million, half that, a couple thousand, then a footnote in history within 50-75 years. Time to face the music and quickly, folks, or we are finished.
Across the sea | 9:14 p.m. April 21, 2008
From the beginning of the world the devil has tried to imitate the work of God
but fail as it has no foundation.This is one of his many tools to lead the
children of God astray.Sad to see so many, decieved and blinded and sufferings,
by a few mislead individuals.
As for those not researching their reports accurately....shame on U.I tried to do an honest days work to get paid.
As for those not researching their reports accurately....shame on U.I tried to do an honest days work to get paid.
Concerned | 9:20 p.m. April 21, 2008
Going back to the story- which discusses the involvement of the LDS church
aiding FLDS members during this very difficult time.
I personally believe that the only reason the courts have asked the LDS church to step in to help is because we are linked.
This Link is through History. We have a common foundation. Where each branch has taken gospel practices is another thing....but if we go back to the issue from this article...
In an anthropological perspective (and even maybe a psychological one too) it makes perfect sense for the LDS Church to extend some services. Whether it be formally or informally by independent members. If there is anyone locally who can some what understand a little of their faith, a little of their culture, a little of why they might think they way they do...its the LDS membership. As a member of the LDS church, I have posed this question to my other LDS friends out here in the Midwest and those living in predominantly LDS membership areas- Why can't our members help these people with counciling etc? If we do, then everyone needs to know we are a third party involved, and not take sides.
I personally believe that the only reason the courts have asked the LDS church to step in to help is because we are linked.
This Link is through History. We have a common foundation. Where each branch has taken gospel practices is another thing....but if we go back to the issue from this article...
In an anthropological perspective (and even maybe a psychological one too) it makes perfect sense for the LDS Church to extend some services. Whether it be formally or informally by independent members. If there is anyone locally who can some what understand a little of their faith, a little of their culture, a little of why they might think they way they do...its the LDS membership. As a member of the LDS church, I have posed this question to my other LDS friends out here in the Midwest and those living in predominantly LDS membership areas- Why can't our members help these people with counciling etc? If we do, then everyone needs to know we are a third party involved, and not take sides.
Anonymous | 9:20 p.m. April 21, 2008
Isn't it wonderful that we all have the freedom to make these posts!?! This
simple freedom is exactly the thing the FLDS church does not allow. If someone
doesn't agree with a religion (including the amish) they are free to leave,
free to choose for themselves...these children in the FLDS never get that
freedom. They are married off young and forced to bear children so that that
ability to choose for themselves gets smaller and smaller. Be greatful for your
freedoms, pray for those less fortunate than yourselves, and be greatful that
you can believe in God whichever way you choose...or not believe in
God...It's your choice. Let the LDS, FLDS, Baptists, Catholics, and
everyone else worship how they please within the confines of the law and be
greatful you have that choice. We're all God's children, our
differences are what make us great. Let's not tear down one another and one
another's beliefs!!
John Lambert | 9:23 p.m. April 21, 2008
All Christians and Jews accept the Bible, but Christians have a larger Bible.
In the same way the FLDS church rejects official declaration one which the LDS
Church accepts.
There are some other issues. The LDS church understnads some scriptures differently than the FLDS Church, and the fact that the FLDS church only actually dates to 1991, 100 years after the manifesto makes things really tricky.
All analogies have flaws. However to assume that everyone who follows the same scripture is the same religion is ludicrous.
Most inportantly for Latter-day Saints the statements of the servents of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost are scripture. God reveals his will line upon line, precept upon precept. Those who claim the FLDS live the Word of Wisdom better than the LDS fail to understand that Heber J. Grant was a prophet of God and his directives on what was and was not within the domain of the word of wisdom, and that it was a neccessary condition for temple attendance are no less prophetic or binding than what Joseph Smith stated.
There are some other issues. The LDS church understnads some scriptures differently than the FLDS Church, and the fact that the FLDS church only actually dates to 1991, 100 years after the manifesto makes things really tricky.
All analogies have flaws. However to assume that everyone who follows the same scripture is the same religion is ludicrous.
Most inportantly for Latter-day Saints the statements of the servents of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost are scripture. God reveals his will line upon line, precept upon precept. Those who claim the FLDS live the Word of Wisdom better than the LDS fail to understand that Heber J. Grant was a prophet of God and his directives on what was and was not within the domain of the word of wisdom, and that it was a neccessary condition for temple attendance are no less prophetic or binding than what Joseph Smith stated.
Larry | 9:29 p.m. April 21, 2008
I am a LDS in rual Georgia and I face questions about the FLDS. Seems like most
people dont know the difference in the LDS and the FLDS. It may take some time
to educiate the people.
hilarious | 9:27 p.m. April 21, 2008
after all those years of trying to seem "normal" and enforcing
conformity, the LD$ is still rightfully despised for its fundamental
weirdness.
i'm lovin it
i'm lovin it
John Lambert | 9:28 p.m. April 21, 2008
The LDS church teaches that children should not start dating until they are
sixteen. Although on one level this may be similar to the FLDS ban on dating,
it is very different than the apparent FLDS practice of marrying girls off at
age 14.
I also have not seem any evidence that the FLDS have relief society, an organization originally founded by Joseph Smith and restored by Eliza R. Snow during the presidency of Brigham Young. Now, maybe the FLDS have such, but I do not see any indication of it.
I also have not seem any evidence that the FLDS have relief society, an organization originally founded by Joseph Smith and restored by Eliza R. Snow during the presidency of Brigham Young. Now, maybe the FLDS have such, but I do not see any indication of it.
John Lambert | 9:36 p.m. April 21, 2008
Why should the church apologize for those who have twisted church doctrine?
That is what has gone on. Read Thomas G. Alexander's biography of Wilford
Woodruff. He argues with convincing evidence that Woodruff did not have sexual
relations with his wives until they were 18. Even if that was not so, we have
to accept that societal standards on such things were different then and we
should not judge 19th century actions by 21st century standards.
Joseph F. Smith denounced double standards on adultery for men and women. John Taylor wrote "The Mediation and Atonement of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
Another problem is nuances. An FLDS leader said that the husband is the head of the wife and controls her as the head controls the feet. Joseph Smith (teachings of Joseph Smith, p. 88) does say that the wife should submit to the husband, but adds "As it is fit in the Lord". He also tells husbands to love their wives and be not bitter against them. The one may lead from the other, but so does Spencer w. Kimballs teaching on this.
Joseph F. Smith denounced double standards on adultery for men and women. John Taylor wrote "The Mediation and Atonement of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
Another problem is nuances. An FLDS leader said that the husband is the head of the wife and controls her as the head controls the feet. Joseph Smith (teachings of Joseph Smith, p. 88) does say that the wife should submit to the husband, but adds "As it is fit in the Lord". He also tells husbands to love their wives and be not bitter against them. The one may lead from the other, but so does Spencer w. Kimballs teaching on this.
Matt in Tucson | 9:41 p.m. April 21, 2008
To you Evangelical "Christians" out there -- your professed path to
salvation is to accept Jesus as your personal savior, be baptized (depending on
the sect) and confess with the mouth. Well, it turns out that FLDS, LDS,
catholic, and pretty much every other Christian religion that you have
persecuted does these things in the course of their worship. Therefore,
according to your own doctrine, all these groups are just as saved as you are.
So what is your motivation for persecuting so many different faiths -- ignorance
or bigotry?
Anonymous | 9:41 p.m. April 21, 2008
This issue will do more to divide mormonism and driving people away from the
church than an army of street preachers. The rooster has come home to roost my
friends.
John Lambert | 9:48 p.m. April 21, 2008
Spencer W. Kimball taught that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ
is the head of the church and so should sacrifice himself for the good of the
wife. This is not about bossing. Order does not always equal oppression.
Even Joseph Smith's teachings had the caveat of the wife only following the husband when it was in line with the teachings of the Lord. These are highly nuanced ideas. However Joseph Smith was explicating a passage from Paul. You could try blaming the passage from Paul on people and insist that everyone who accepts it as true is an accoplice in all spousal abuse that is justified using the passage, but that is bizarre. Just because someone thinks a passage means something does not mean that the writer of the passage meant it to mean that and the writer is guilty for what occured.
Even Joseph Smith's teachings had the caveat of the wife only following the husband when it was in line with the teachings of the Lord. These are highly nuanced ideas. However Joseph Smith was explicating a passage from Paul. You could try blaming the passage from Paul on people and insist that everyone who accepts it as true is an accoplice in all spousal abuse that is justified using the passage, but that is bizarre. Just because someone thinks a passage means something does not mean that the writer of the passage meant it to mean that and the writer is guilty for what occured.
Texas, Texas, Texas.... | 9:54 p.m. April 21, 2008
Leave it to the Texans to wage war on scant evidence.
John Lambert | 9:51 p.m. April 21, 2008
To shadow,
You are wrong. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christian.
We believe in being saved by grace. We believe in the atonening blood of Christ. We perform baptisms in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The baptismal prayer is "- (here you give the person's name) having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptized you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
Yes we do feel you have to show a willingness to repent. We do beieve that baptism is being born of the water and recieving the Holy Ghost is being born of the spirit as Jesus said.
Yet, the Catholics accept that there are a set of sacraments that are neccesary for salvation. The Catholics accept the Apocrapha as scripture while the Protestants do not. This is not quite post-Biblical scripture, but it does indicate that the exact canon is not what makes someone a Crhistian.
Anyway, if God has spoken to the Jews why can he not revela his word to others?
You are wrong. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christian.
We believe in being saved by grace. We believe in the atonening blood of Christ. We perform baptisms in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The baptismal prayer is "- (here you give the person's name) having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptized you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
Yes we do feel you have to show a willingness to repent. We do beieve that baptism is being born of the water and recieving the Holy Ghost is being born of the spirit as Jesus said.
Yet, the Catholics accept that there are a set of sacraments that are neccesary for salvation. The Catholics accept the Apocrapha as scripture while the Protestants do not. This is not quite post-Biblical scripture, but it does indicate that the exact canon is not what makes someone a Crhistian.
Anyway, if God has spoken to the Jews why can he not revela his word to others?
John Lambert | 10:04 p.m. April 21, 2008
If someone can find a contemporary attack on Joseph Smith that makes
inflamatory remarks about the ages of his wives, or even such on Brigham Young I
will believe the assult. However, those who say 100 years ago forget that is
way off. 100 years ago was 1908. What we are dealing with is what was the
acceptable marriage age in 1880 or before. That is a different issue.
D T M | 10:00 p.m. April 21, 2008
I say to those of you who are in sympathy for FLDS cult...BY ALL MEANS GO JOIN
THEM! no one really cares. If that is the direction and path that you choose to
indulge in then GO!!!!! Go see how many wives you can get! ha ha! Perhaps they
will steal your wife like they did mine.
LDS Mom | 10:25 p.m. April 21, 2008
I find it very interesting that no one has pointed out that it was only a small
percentage of the LDS church who practiced polygamy, I belive it was 5%. Where
as the entire FLDS church practices polygamy.
TO: Comments should be... | 10:30 p.m. April 21, 2008
I think I could completely agree. However, this is a PUBLIC newspaper so I can
clearly see reason not to.
BUT I would definitely welcome a positive only or at LEAST a more friendly debated comment section more for members whether it be on some other site or at least SOMETHING different than this ongoing. 'I hate your religion!' 'You are connected to FLDS cause I say so and your whole religion full of people is wrong because I SAID that you ARE connected' types of attitudes you find on here.
So many comments of people who won't listen to ANY person who says otherwise. I say that only the LDS members can really say whether we are connected AND the majority of members want nothing to do with the LATER created FLDS sect. They shouldn't even have LDS in their name... They should be known as something without reference to my religion as I have a right to have nothing to do with them.
Who is a non member to tell me what I associate myself with. I CHOOSE to dissociate from any FLDS. We need an uplifting comment section for people who just want to talk, not fight.
BUT I would definitely welcome a positive only or at LEAST a more friendly debated comment section more for members whether it be on some other site or at least SOMETHING different than this ongoing. 'I hate your religion!' 'You are connected to FLDS cause I say so and your whole religion full of people is wrong because I SAID that you ARE connected' types of attitudes you find on here.
So many comments of people who won't listen to ANY person who says otherwise. I say that only the LDS members can really say whether we are connected AND the majority of members want nothing to do with the LATER created FLDS sect. They shouldn't even have LDS in their name... They should be known as something without reference to my religion as I have a right to have nothing to do with them.
Who is a non member to tell me what I associate myself with. I CHOOSE to dissociate from any FLDS. We need an uplifting comment section for people who just want to talk, not fight.
Anonymous | 10:48 p.m. April 21, 2008
Umm five percent would be incorrect but that may be close to official church
position (which I believe is 2-3%. It was actually between 20 - 30 percent
depending on the statistical method used which is not overwhelmeing but put it
into context with scriptures and teaching; is still a political nightmare that
the church needs to address. It cannot be minimized by putting a small number on
it; it was wrong from the begining and the church needs to reconcile its past.
Anonymous | 10:53 p.m. April 21, 2008
Trying to explain to these idiots that the LDS church and FLDS church are not
the same is like spitting in the wind. It is like saying that Americans are a
British colony. They were British citizens so therefore they still are. The Flds
Broke off over the polygamy deal. They drink wine and have there own prophet.
People that say we are one and the same are ignorant and missinformed or highly
bigoted and want to stir up controversy.
Ryan | 11:00 p.m. April 21, 2008
Non-members need to examine thier posts and look at the garbage you are writing.
It is absolutley rediculious how poor you articulate statements and furthermore
your ignorance of the church. I agree with the couple pf posts who have
commented that this forum should be for members only.
I keep my kids from associating with kids of families who are not up to Latter-Day Saint standards, so why cannot the the church owned news paper keep out non-members from posting who are obviously not up to our standards.
I keep my kids from associating with kids of families who are not up to Latter-Day Saint standards, so why cannot the the church owned news paper keep out non-members from posting who are obviously not up to our standards.
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Moises Andrade watches as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints missionaries talk with church members on Sunday at the San Angelo Spanish-speaking branch in the Abilene, Texas, stake.
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