"Treading lightly and with caution". Too late, Ms. Pulliam. You heard about an
anonymous phone call in March, and raided the ranch in April without bothering
to investigate if it was authentic (it's not). Was this an oversight, or did
your preconcieved beliefs about what was happening in the ranch blind you to the
rule of law? Or is the Texas CPS above the law? You have opened the State
of Texas up to a lawsuit which could be very expensive to the taxpayers. You
have removed 416 children from their parents. Now you talk about treading
lightly.Which is the greater evil; Having a teenage girl impregnated by a
20 year old playa who has no intention of marriage and leaves her with no father
for the child and most likely on welfare for most of her life, or a middle age
man who marries a teenage bride and provides for her the rest of his life? (Note
I said both are evil. I do not support polygamy. I just belive a heavy handed
Machiavellian government is an even greater evil)
Probably the best foster placement for these kids would be their own homes with
their own fathers and mothers.
The states strategy is now clear. As they were not able to get at the sect
directly, theyre using the children as pawns. They can detain them without
evidence and hold them for years without trial. At each step they will dangle
the children in front of the mothers, and the mothers, some of them, will fall
for it. Some went to the womens shelter, some will leave the ranch and get jobs,
believing if they do so the state will look favorably on them. Some will submit
DNA when the state has no right to it, not realizing that the state just wants
it to prosecute them, as having gone in there with no case, they now have to
manufacture one. The children are pawns; if theyre traumatized by all this, the
state could care less.
This whole thing is about teenage girls being married off. Why are the boys
being held under constructive arrest? Why are the small children being held?
There is no allegation they are being married off.Why are the civil
rights of all these kids and parents being violated?If they were
Baptists Texas would leave them alone, this is religious bigotry, plain and
simple. It is not about the kids at all, they are just an excuse.
The Government has went to far
These texas rangers just have to get another life, the texas rangers out lived
itself, get with the times, should be on border patrol where the real crime is,
durgs etc. and on horse back. From what I read it sounds like you (texans)
most likly did the wrong move on the FLDS ranch, armed to the teeth, did,nt look
too good on TV. The FLDS folks now living not so good conditions, not clean like
they are use to, sent them back home. Go into the inter city and take DNA,s, or
anyother place in this county and see what you get.
So TX CPS is going to try to farm out the children and teen moms in family
groups, huh? After seeing their work ethics in "investigating the situation" and
their "informing the moms" about the reasons for Friday's "temporary meeting to
make announcements and relate information" before the surprise forced
separations, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for CPS to honor their
words in this regard, either.
Something is wrong with this situation.I don'tthink we have rite to take
children from there parents on hersay. this situation should have been handled
differently maybe with some research first.
Send home everyone not indanger of being married off in 60 days!!! That is the
law--there must be imminent danger within that time to hold them... Religious
INTOLERANCE to other factors that are within the law (not the teenagers pregnant
or married)... Now the judge has 1 YEAR to make these cases.. That is one minute
too long for the little ones.. How long are the nursing moms going to stay
before Tx rips their babies from them? You CANNOT give burden of proof the
babies are in danger or the preschoolers and under in age..even CPS'S
psychiatrist Perry said REUNIFICAITON!!Re: ManhoriIf it were
Baptists they would have had the dad in jail even if he were proven innocent and
the children already miles away never to be seen in a long time.. I have not
seen TX CPS kind to anyone--even the truely innocent.
Shame! Shame! Shame! on Texas. I am LDS and do not condone this group or
polygamy. But - taking these children from their mothers and siblings is
terribly wrong. Take care of the men and their dealings if you must be
involved. Leave these poor children alone, send them back to their mothers and
families. It's not the states business to check everyone's DNA. That is going
to take years, what about the children. Good Grief! People all over the world
are immoral every day. What's the difference? Go get the really bad guys.
When did authorized child rape become OK? You have 16 year old girls with two
year old children. That isn't reason enough to break this cult up? The latent
acceptance of these people by virtually everyone who has anything to write in
this board is alarming.
Yesterday I saw the film EXPELLED. This is just another example of Darwinism
run amuck. Only the strong deserve to be parents or should I dare say that
children belong to the Govt and not to parents to raise. There is no God in
Govt. Shame on those who trample on our constitutional rights!!
This is so sad. If they have question the girls where being,married off
young...They could of taken away the teen girls or removed all the men from the
ranch. Until the investigation was complete. Instead there having all these
children suffer. Just not fair! Our goverment doesn't make any sense. My
question is the state of Texas looking at there land for the state of Texas's
purpose? Something just don't seem right about this situation..
To all those critical of the Texas authorities.... It is NOT OK for 50 year old
men to rape 14 year old girls. And it is NOT OK to abandon 12 year old boys and
leave them homeless. The mothers of these children have been
brainwashed and are not fit to raise them!Texas did the right
thing... time for Utah to start protecting children.
The lone star in this whole mess is Texas that has the guts to do what Utah,
Arizona, Colorado, and South Dakota haven't. Why have these child molesters
been left unchecked. And why are we pitying the mothers for losing their
children. By being in that situation, they are facilitating abuse. Foster
homes will be a traumatic experience, but maybe it will show these kids a
picture of a normal, functional family.
A dangerous precedent is being set here. NO abuse charges have been filed. NOT
ONE child has been identified as a victim of abuse. The accuser doesn't even
exist. The entire raid was the product of a hoax. Yet the jack-booted state
can come in and tear away each and every child from his or her mother's arms
without a credible cause, any evidence, or a single charge being filed. However
repugnant the beliefs of this sect, the individual rights of its members and
their children are still protected by the Constitution. Even if the rumors and
accusations were true, then they would only involve men who have allegedly had
sex with underage girls (those forcibly married at 13 or so) and maybe some
mothers who allowed it. But it has nothing to do with all of the young children
who have not been involved in a forced, underage marriage or the mothers who
don't have children that have been involved in a forced, underage marriage.
Without charges or direct and specific evidence of abuse the state should not
touch a single child, mother, or father however unpopular the beliefs and
practices of the sect may be.
This whole time, I've tried to be very objective about the whole thing. Texas
can't sit by when they have evidence of statutory rape. They can't ignore the
incest. They've been informed of the lost boys, and the reassignment of
families, no doubt. This group is Warren Jeff's "elect", handpicked
by him to come live there. They're the most fanatical grouping of this religion,
so I do think that ranch has problems. Texas also can't return the
kids to the ranch yet because they don't know who the kids or the parents are.
How could do they possibly do any followups with accuracy? I get that.But here's where I'm freaking out. They're now sending the mothers home of
the nursing babies. THAT is not okay. Taking those babies off their mother's
milk and putting them on formula can result in more sickness, and a higher risk
of asthma. That's a case where the state absolutely is putting the
babies in physical danger by depriving them of their mothers' milk. I want the mothers to get their kids back, ultimately. I do think that this
whole incident is scaring YFZ enough to extract the necessary cultural changes
Go Texas. This is probably the only way they can deal with this problem, and as
we have proven in Utah, leaving it only lets it get worse. In the end, of
course, the old perverts will probably get tired of being held up to the law,
and come back to Utah where there's illegal and "illegal".
Mothers who stand by and allow institutionalized child abuse (underage marriage)
are just as guilty of child abuse as the person perpetrating it. Remember, there
can be many different forms of abuse - not all of it physical. Claiming it falls
under "religion" doesn't make it right.
Are you people really defending child abusers? There have been some mistakes
in the handling of this case, but Texas CPS has tried in good faith to protect
children. Maybe Utah should take some lessons from the Lone Star State.
It's about time someone did something about that pedophile group. Go,
Texas! CPS can't return the kids to their parents since they can't figure
out who the parents are- a problem caused by the FLDS repeatedly lying to
officials. I wouldn't return a lost puppy to someone who
couldn't/wouldn't identify it AND kept changing their story about it, much less
a child. The FLDS'ers brought these problems upon themselves and should have the
bright light of day shined on them.
I am LDS also. I wish there didn't have to be so much suffering on the
children's part, but I believe that what is being accomplished is a good thing.
Raids were done in Utah years ago, it wasn't enough, nor did it make lasting
changes. It appears to others that the LDS are supporting the RLDS by not taking
action, even though they are very against polygamy. It appears that we
sympathize with them when we are so sad for their pain. It always requires pain
when a major change takes place in peoples lives, however this change will make
monumentally good changes. Thank you, Texas.
Here we go again, defending child molestors. Let's just have one mass wedding,
followed by an orgy. Yeah, that will make GOD proud.
Where this is going to become difficult is when the majority of the teen girls
in custody show signs of their pregnancy. Non have ever seen a doctor or had
normal pre-natal care. They use a mid-wife, and I'm sure she is plenty
experienced certainly, but I doubt they have enough mid-wives and female OBG's
in this part of Texas to handle all the girls. The results of the DNA tests are
going to open up this mess, many men are going to end up in jail for child rape.
The policy of silence, confusion, and outright lying in order to make it
impossible to note ages, and fathership, will no longer be effective.Its
time we end child rape and let's these kids have choices.Stay sweet or
burn in hell puts an end to the opportunity to think for one's self.I'm
having a hard time feeling sorry for the men, who are fully supportive of taking
the families from the men who have been expelled in the past.
>>You have 16 year old girls with two year old children.>That isn't reason
enough to break this cult up?
Brooke,My sister(here in Salt Lake) was told by CPS that her children
belonged to the state and they could take them at any time they pleased. She had
a brain injury and was struggling at the time. It is becoming a scary socitey!
God Bless those little Children.
The temporary living arrangements will expose the teen moms and younger children
for the first time to an alternative way of living. Givin a choice for the
first time, I predict that many will choose to live away from the ranch for
good. Until now they have not had a choice. Give them counseling and finally,
a good education so they could make it on the outside if they wanted to. Part
of the education should include details on the activites of their false
"prophet" Warren Jeffs. Once returned to the ranch, they'll require monitoring
by CPS. This is the land of the free where the people have made laws against
false imprisonment (Carolyn Jessop and others) and statuatory rape.
To AMAZED: What amazes me is that everyone in Utah, Texas and the entire USA
isn't up-in-arms about these minor government agencies ripping these innocent
children from their obviously loving parents strictly on anti-religious grounds.
If Texas CPS has evidence of a specific case of abuse let them bring that
evidence forward and punish the guilty. Right now they're punishing only the
innocent, and innocent CHILDREN at that, under the guise of protecting them.
Whata Crock. Texans, if you leave these tormentors in their current jobs you
are as guilty as they are. Speak up!!!!!!!
In court Thursday, Texas state officials presented records they said show 10
women were either married or pregnant as minors.
I am sadden by this whole event. I am a Mother and Grandmother and it would
break my heart, literally if my children or grandchildren were taken away from
me, especially by force such as this. Leave these children alone, let them live
with their parents, no matter what we the world think of their "way of life"
this is all they have known. The Texas government should look at their own
families and see how it would make them feel. Work out whatever legal matters
need to be worked out but for goodness sake, don't make these children and their
Mother's and yes Father's suffer for the mistake of the Texas laws that have not
been enforced for so many years, Why now start, you have turned your eyes away
for so long, now you must fine a way to eradicate this problem without
distrubing so many children and their parents. If needs be, start now by not
letting this continue but don't punish those who you have already been allowed
for this to happen for so many years. I do not condone this behavior but I also
do not condone the behavior of the State of Texas!
I can't belive anyone would think it is okay to let children stay with these
people. Young girls are not allowed to make any decisions or have any knowledge
so they may exercise their own agency. The whole thing is sick. I totally
agree with Park City resident and Lone Star. After these mothers have had some
education and have learned a bit about the world, then I would think they MIGHT
be fit to have their children back. The sick men who have done these crimes
should spend the rest of their lives in jail. The women should be given an
education appropriate to their age and abilities. This type of lifestyle cannot
be permitted. It is against the law. Child rape is just plain evil. It may be
hard to place these children, but they'll be better off living in the real world
so they can make their own decisions and choose their own lives instead of
having them forced to act in a way they probably wouldn't have if they had had
A man tried to abduct and rape my daughter. He is a pedophile and is now in
prison where he belongs. How can a mother look at her 13 year old child and
even in her wildest throes of religious fanaticism think is it appropriate to
spiritually marry her off and be forced to have sex with a older man? These
mothers say they love their children and I believe them. But they are so
brainwashed by their so-called (and imprisoned) prophet that it is okay to
condone what is considered by the rest of the civilized world (and many third
world countries) rape of young girls. I am amazed that mainstream Mormons
support these women instead of attempting to reach out and educate them as to
the appropriate way to love and cherish their children. I do not always agree
with what my state government does, but I applaud this action. These children
deserve an opportunity to live without fear of abandonment (the boys) and
emotional and physical mistreatment (the girls) if they do not toe the line.
And, one doesn't hear of young girls removed from the sect because they commit
minor infractions of the rules.
Polygamy is a CRIME. It is CHILD ABUSE. Anyone who has sympathy for these
nutjobs is a fool! Only in Utah would people defend pedophilia in the name of
some stupid, insidious 'religion.' Texas is doing the RIGHT thing, something
Utah should have done YEARS ago. The rest of the planet understands this
clearly. You sympathizers are sick. I've never been in favor of a 50 year old
pedophile marrying multiple children. Sorry. Sell that 'temple' for scrap, pay
back the taxpayers for the fraudulent support and send these idiots to prison.
Give their children a real chance to become educated and enter the 21st century.
GROW BRAINS. To those of you who say it's better to return the kids to this
wacky, criminal pedophilic lifestyle, ARE YOU NUTS??
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to
take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson
Big Al, get a grip! You obviously have not researched other websites to
understand the problem in its entirety. It's huge. Texas has been on thisfor months and months and "the call" opened the doorto get in but even
CPS DID NOT KNOW the brevity of the situation. Please, all of you look up
FumeraseDeficiency...search "child brides"...lost boys ofpolygamy...these FLDS women,(NOT RLDS), are alreadydrawing welfare for
2-10+ children; it is organizedFRAUD, by the lustful men, and the women
give theirdaughters away to older men and cast away their 16-17 sons to
the open highways or the streets. Thechildren do not know how to use a
If the state was looking for under age girls with babys they could find them in
any high school in the state.After reading the comments, I think the
people here except fot one has a good grip on the situation.I think the
state just wants to conflicate the compound for an exutive golf course, under
the forfiture laws there.
Did anyone listen to Larry King Live on April 16th?I think what is
happening in Texas is only the beginning for the FLDS. In the interview that
Larry King had with Winston Blackmore, a polygamous leader in Canada with ties
to the FLDS, a very enlightening statement was made about Warren Jeffs and his
obvious decision not to follow his father's counsel about the marrying of
underage women."BLACKMORE: His father told us in 1998, before his
stroke, he plainly told us all, in Utah that there was -- it was the age
difference between marriages, plural marriages. He said we're going to follow
this law. We're going to let these people grow up. It was also the advice of our
legal counsel at the time. They told us, you guys need to distance yourself from
underage marriage." I believe the state of Texas is doing the right
thing in regards to the DNA testing. The evidence will come out that shows that
underage marriage practices were in effect and illegal. A whole host of things
will be revealed in time. Had Warren and his flock followed their
leader this mess wouldn't be happening. Nobody would have cared.
Don't waste your breath on Big Al and his kind. Don't you get it? He and his
kind WILL NOT STOP, EVER! THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON. THEY WILL NOT
ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACTS. THEY WILL REPEAT THE SAME ROBOTIC SCRIPTS FOREVERS.How about the other kids in Houston getting pregnant. What a crock of an
ill conceived comparison to systematic child rape.
Here's a question for ya'll.When the very next child is born to any
FLDS woman---will the state of TX be standing there to take it too?
"Had Warren and his flock followed their leader this mess wouldn't be happening.
Nobody would have cared."-----------I actually had the
opportunity to speak (internet) to a FLDSer last night and i'm pretty sure he
was authentic. He seemed like a good man however he continously stressed how
virtuous and God-like Uncle Warren is. Jeffs perfected the cult-leader technique
over a decades long span and tasted consumate power over people early on. I'm
afraid nothing can be done at this point. Sadly, many if not all FLDSers would
follow Uncle Warren to their deaths if he so commanded, it seems clear.
Oh, how beautiful is a witch hunt? It is most common to find what you
Yes jim, the world has plenty of teenage girls that are pregnant. It's because
of teenage boys (with rampant hormones) not adult men in some society that
condones child marriages. Geesh, get a brain and a spell checker.
Cookie and "To Cookie" (who doesn't even have his own name), You both sound like
state CPS agents who made up your minds about the folks at YFZ without needing
any facts beforehand. Or even now, for that matter. Are you feeling really
powerful now that you have so many people under your control? Sad!!
These FLDS mothers are just as guilty as the crusty old men they gave their
young daughters to. Keep it up Texas.
As a practicing family law attorney in Henderson, NV, I am shocked to see the
comments in support of returning these kids to the FLDS compound. Folks,
polygamy is illegal. It is that black and white. This is necessary to break a
vicious cycle. Texas is doing the job that the Utah AG is afraid to do.
Larry King Live April 16th, go read the full interview. Larry King talking with
Winston Blackmore, a Canadian polygamist leader with ties to the FLDS...KING: Are you a friend of Warren Jeffs? BLACKMORE: I knew
Warren very well. KING: Was he bad rapped? BLACKMORE: I
think if he had followed the instructions and advice of his father, he would
have made a very fine leader. KING: What didn't he follow? BLACKMORE: His father told us in 1998, before his stroke, he plainly told us
all, in Utah that there was -- it was the age difference between marriages,
plural marriages. He said we're going to follow this law. We're going to let
these people grow up. It was also the advice of our legal counsel at the time.
They told us, you guys need to distance yourself from underage marriage. Warren heard it. I heard it. The rest of the people heard it. After his
father had a stroke, he chose to do something different. What's
happening in Texas is a direct result of the society's own doing. One leader is
not responsible for this mess. Many men are to blame and the women are not
There hasn't been anything like this since the Salem Witch Hunt by another bunch
of lying witnesses.Good Christians all.For all you people that believe the
accusers, May you find your fate.Remember the Lord said "Judge ye not
least ye be Judged"If one child is harmed while in the care of the
Do-Gooders, May the Lord apply his wrath upon you.I am not LDS or FLDS but
I am a good Christian that follows the bible. I do not judge you but pity you
for your Judgement.
If those kids get returned to the compound, the vicious cycle is going to
continue. The inbreeding is going to continue, the young girls getting pregnant
will continue. Some of you so called defenders need to do your research on this
cult. And It astounds me that people here are excusing the child
brides and teen girls getting pregnant. Why are some of you comparing your
average teenage girl getting pregnant from your hometown to an FLDS teenage girl
getting pregnant? There is no comparision! Your average teen that got pregnant
wasn't forced into marriage to someone 3 times their age and forced to have
children. FLDS girls have no options, no choices - only option to them is to
breed and submit to their husbands.
Hmmmm Floyd, doesn't the bible say something about a millstone about your neck
if you harm the little ones???? I'm ok judging something along this line. Do you have a problem making right and wrong decisions? The Bible
clearly gives us a choice to choose and judging right from wrong is pretty clear
in applying a law isn't it?Is sitting on the fence or not choosing
to make a decision a decision. Get your head out of the sand!
Has everyone forgoten Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple? The organization (Mr
Jones) owned all the property of it's members. The organization (Mr Jones) told
it's members what to do and demanded complete obedience. The organization (Mr
Jones) prevented people from leaving. The organization (Mr Jones) ultimately
turned to raping it's underage members with the consent of the parents. In the
end, the organization (Mr Jones) instructed it's members to commit suicide,
which they did, en mass. The type of mind control practiced by these types of
'churches' is frightening. Substitute Mr Jones for Mr Jeffs. How can people
condone the practices of this 'church' and condemn the state for trying to
protect the children? The state cannot return the children to the parents,
because the state doesn't even know who the parents are. Are those that think
this is such a travesty of justice pro child abuse and pro rape? These people,
especially the children, are not free!
This is the worst constitutional abuse in the history of the United States. The
state has yet to identify the 16 year old girl who called; so what do they do?
they launch a military assault on a peaceful community and arrest everyone
there. There was no armed resistance by the FLDS. If the government even thought
of doing this with any other group, say gay/lesbian families, the ACLU would be
all over it and the state would get nowhere. By the way, where is the ACLU? why
aren't they doing their sworn duty to defend civil rights. This is the worst
abuse of civil rights ever.
when the ACLU stays away, what does that tell you, they'll usually defend the
most fringe of the fringe groups. Even the ACLU has to draw the line somewhere
"Foster homes will be a traumatic experience, but maybe it will show these kids
a picture of a normal, functional family."Does that sound like an
oxymoron anyone? Traumatic experiences will not be pleasurable or read anything
equaling normal or functional. That is like saying going down in a airplane
crash is traumatic but it will show you a picture of a normal and functional
crash... Gee... Perhaps you will jump on the next airplane after that? KB
I agree with Sugar Momma... ripping the nursing babies who are not in any
immediate harm from their mother's milk and put on formula (or even switching
the children's healthy diet to cheap food) will result in more sickness and even
from a psychological side--the babies and toddlers are unaware of the child
bride issue and not in danger in the next 60 days to a year and this separation
will cause more harm than living in the ranch over the next 60 days. Permanent
psychological scarring WILL occur and is more serious than what the little ones
would have been exposed to with their mamas. Fine, separate the children from
the ranch..haul the daddies to jail while the parantage is being sorted out and
the teenagers being married off but don't emotionally and psychologically abuse
them this way. Two wrongs do not make a right to these children. I am praying
daily for them.
TX Comptroller,Carole Keeton-Strayhor, in 2004, found CPS foster care
kids--raped, murdered, poisoned."When I called on Gov. Perry in
October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was
minute-by-minute and child-by-child."In Fiscal 2004, four-year old
twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the
hospital for rape."A five-year old boy in the same foster home
received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later."A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster
care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004."The state is
supposed to be protecting our forgotten children, but in all too many cases
these children are taken from one abusive situation and placed in another
abusive situation. Many children are in more abusive situations now than they
were before the state intervened. Children are being neglected and abused and
are dying.Google for Strayhand's full report.
"The children do not know how to use a crayola"Don't fly off the
handle Cookie. I saw sweet smiley faced pictures done in Crayons in the school
on YFZ on the media's tour.You guys who are accusing the mothers of
being equally guilty--the state cannot hold a child during this time unless
there is immediate danger of abuse within the next 60 days. This does not seem
likely to occur in two months with the younger children, especially 6 and under.
Texas went too heavy handed. You can not justify that without dangerously
overlooking the individual and their case.
These perverts have been raping young girls and brainwashing them for decades.
THE PARTY IS OVER!! WE DON'T WANT YOU IN UTAH EITHER. Time that
Utah's Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and the Washington County Sheriff Kirk
Smith take similar action and stop the rape of these children in our own area.
that the Texas CPS will play this one as CAREFULLY as they possibly can. These
kids no matter what their age MUST be removed from a cult-ure that practices
child-briding of the girls and expulsion of enough boys to have the arithmetic
work out for the 3-bride criterion. Kids are *socialized* into a society from a
pretty young age.
The correct spelling for the post above, on the TX comptroller in 2004-06 is
Carole Keeton Strayhorn.You can google for her CPS report shoing
details of rape, murder, and poisonings, within TX CPS.
If abuse has not been proven, then how can the state inconclusively assume
the right to take these children. They are now the 'chattel' of the state.Of course, federal money and state money will comeflying in, as funds
will be given to them based onthe 'number of cases' Yes, people will make
moneyoff these broken hearts.Lastly, if they purport that there is
abuse, thenthat falls along a criminal line. As such, why thendo
these people, and in fact all parents accused ofabuse not being given jury
trials on their alledgedguilt.Why can't these children be with
grandparents?AMERICAN PARENTS HAVE NO RIGHTS. When people fearthe
government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is
liberty.Yes, these people look very melancholie on television, but if you
had your kids stolen, you would too.
Texas law, in 2005, was clear that a girl was a woman at age 14--could marry.
So, a girl at YFZ--like any other Texan girl, who was 14 in 2005 could have as
many as two children with another on the way--legally--in 2008. Since 14 year
old girls could marry any man in Texas only two years ago, it seems the heighth
of hypocrisy for Texans to be removing 416 children based on the children's
exposure to what has been going on all around Texans since Texas got
statehood--and before. LDS members, rather than be embarrassed and anxious to
separate themselves from their church history, should be very concerned about
the intolerance and hypocrisy of an over-zealous, petty government keen on
subjective moral intereference. It has not been so long ago, historically
speaking, that LDS were also considered a "peculiar people"--where is the
empathy and concern for all of our constitutional rights?
From reading the boards it appears there are many supporters of pedophilia and
child rape...WE MUST BE IN UTAH. I've never been a big fan of 50 year old
men raping multiple 13 year olds in the name of some stupid, evil 'religion.'Warren Jeffs is headed to prison where he will find out what rape is really
all about...some prophet.
Prior to 2005 it was legal to be 14, married and pregnant with parental concent.
Now you must be the ripe old age of 16. It is concievable that there are
minors (under 18) with babys at the compound that are not in violation of any
As a family counselor I am very concerned with the welfare of these children. I
think the harm that is done by the action taken is by far worse than the harm
they would have received in their homes. Education is necessary but there are
much better ways to educate than to tear families apart. If the FLDS people
would haven known what is coming, I am positive they would have allowed
authorities in and even certified teachers to teach at the school there. The way
it was done is traumatic, the abuse they still endure by the State of Texas is
horrific. Anybody callings this good or right has never worked with disturbed
families. This will be a very long road to recovery, if that is at all possible
for some of the children. Looks like Texas has no heart!
To be legally married you need a valid marriage license. At 16 the parents need
to give written permission and present a valid birth certificate of the child.
I wonder if these teen 'marriages' met these requirements.
I am from Colorado city Az I tried to run away several times from the abuse of
that town. Only to be dragged back by the "POLICEMAN" who wouldnt listen because
I was a polygamists child, and they just couldnt get involved. At 14 I finally
got out the night before my wedding to a 42 yr. old man I was to be his fifth
wife. I not only had to hide from the cult but also the police who sided with my
parents saying I needed to be in my own home. You people have no idea what its
like being raised with 40 children in one home. There is no love who has the
time. Your duties and chores are endless if you get out of line you get whiped
either by belt, leather straps made just for whippings, bailing wire, or sticks.
your father is never home Hes either out working or sucking up to the preisthood
to get more wives. The woman hate each other but cant show it so what do they do
they take it out on each others children. I thank GOD for Texas this needs to
I think you need to look into your history to see the type of persecution that
has been enacted on many different religious bodies since the salem witch hunts.
Besides this has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with laws being
broken. People claim religious persecution as a way to be exempt from the law.
When people say that doing drugs is part of their religion do we let them off,
no, when children are being rapped as part of a religious act should we let the
perpetraders off, absolutly not. Oh and by the way, "I am not LDS or
FLDS, but am a GOOD CHRISTIAN..." what kind of judgement is that?
Dear Penny I am on your side completely. God bless you for speaking out
about these evil polygamist cults. There needs to be more done with these people
then what has been done so far. Evil is evil!God protect you.
A woman who allows a 50 yr old man to Rape her teen daughter is NO MOTHER.
This LDS woman supports Texas in thoroughly investigating the systematic abuse
of young women among that FLDS group. I hope the state will show compassion and
allow women to be with their youngest babies and children, and place the older
girls in homes where they will be safe and well treated while the matter is
investigated (and they will be sheltered from further parental brainwashing.)
The illegal "spiritual" "marriages" of young girls to older men must be stopped,
and perhaps this will discourage other fringe groups from this practice for fear
of government reprisal. And how can the marriages be legal, even
with parental consent, if the man involved already had a wife or two or three?
It's statutory rape if the marriage isn't legal. And if the children of such
unions were receiving welfare or other government aid, that's another illegal
act, and a result of a man having more wives and children that he can
these children will suffer some. But many were already suffering and
(hopefully) future generations will not have to be rapped by many of these men.
I'm no fan of foster homes. I wish there were more good homes available. Maybe
some of you that are so worried about these kids being taken away from those
victim/enabler mothers can open your homes to these children to alleviate some
of the shock. Though the CPS probably make many mistakes, how can some of you
ignore that this religion is based on rape of minors. As for those that believe
the LDS should own up or whatever, the LDS church follows the law because God
tells them to. Evil men have broken off from many good churches to follow the
evil designs of the adversary. The RLDS, LDS, Catholics, Baptists etc. are
following the laws put down from this country. For those like the FLDS who
can't follow the Laws, that is why we have police. Two laws are being broken,
Polygamy (no worse than what many men do today anyways) and the big one, Rape of
I am sure, that after sorting out correct birth dates, what parent belongs to
what child, the majority of children will be returned to their parents. BUT with
a parent plan that will have strict supervision of CPS, which might change a few
things in FLDS controlled compounds. There also will be restrictions on parents
being able to leave the area while that plan is in effect. Eventually I see all
the FLDS communities somewhat reforming to reality or it's off to a Banana
Republic with a bucket of kool-aid, just in case...
We can ALL agree that Texas should show compassion and keep mothers with the
youngest and the babies...too much more harm will be done otherwise. I think we
can ALL agree with you on the rest of your post.
They live in nice houses at our cost!!!! All the work that these people do and
the money paid goes to the FLDS church, so when they would do road or
contracting jobs, they could bid much lower than other companies because of the
tax break. They also have a lot of children on welfare, so I am not impressed
by what they have, because we pay for it in some way or another. This group
knows how to cheat the system and they do it, I saw it first hand with Rulon
Jeff's, trust me, they think they are above the rules.
Most people fail to understand that CPS operates in an all or nothing
atmosphere. There are definately 16 year olds with baby's at YFZ. Children under
16 also are pregnant. There have been mutiple witnesses that stated girls
younger than 16 are taken as "spiritual wives". Males are taught that the
practice of taking young brides is applauded. The laws of Texas make every adult
in the compound complisite with the crime IF they knew of its existance,
therefore every minor child MUST be removed under Texas state CPS guidelines.
This is not a negotiable issue. It is the law in the state of Texas that if any
abuse is suspected all children must be removed. FLDS made themselves targets by
practicing a lifestyle that is patently illegal in Texas. Once DNA testing is
complete the nature of the problem will be defined and the courts will deal with
the situation rapidly. Be assured that any person that knew nothing, saw
nothing, married no minors, did not have sex with minors will be exonerated.
Everyone else will lose their kids. Sorry!!
Cougargard:"Folks, polygamy is illegal. It is that black and
white."As you continually remind us that you are an attorney, I
think that you understand that Texas' allegations are based on child abuse and
have *nothing* to do with polygamy.Further, I suspect that if
charges are leveled involving consenting adults, that this is exactly the sort
of case that would lead to a Supreme Court decision nullifying anti-polygamy
laws, just as sodomy and mixed-race marriage laws have already been declared
null. Between consenting adults, bigamy is nobody's business, and these existing
laws make no more sense than prosecuting adultery or premarital sex. I wouldn't
say that it's a "black and white" issue at all, any more than the gay marriage
controversy the periodically recurs during slow news cycles.
Texas,Make sure you take away all new borns from YFZ as they are born!!
Then go into inner city Dallas and take all babies born to teenage mothers!!
Then take all the girls from inner city Dallas to protect them from the same
fate (over 70% are having illicit sexual relations and over 13% are getting
pregnant - nearly all with older men!!). Then take all the boys from inner city
Dallas as they are being raised to be perpetrators!! If any parents object you
can send them to YFZ. Once you have cleand up the FLDS and inner city Dallas
you will be free to clean up the rest of this country and confiscate everyone's
Boys as young as 13 are abandoned by their "good" mothers. That is child abuse.
Girls are married and impregnated not by choice but by rape. That is child
abuse. Some of the men marrying these girls are close relatives. That is
incest. Babies are at risk because of the communal nature of this group. I am
not quite sure why some of you people are confused. This is indeed about child
rape and incest (the very issues that put Warren JEFFS their prophet and moral
sounding board) behind bars. That abuse, including incest, is PERVASIVE. This
is NOT an issue about religion, it could be any organization, but clear cut
ABUSE. I am forced to believe that many posters are polygamists
that do not understand that Child abuse and child sexual abuse with incest is
WRONG and hiding under the umbrella of religion is a pathetic and invalid
excuse.As far as the Police entering the compound, suppose a person called
about a robbery and no crime was currently occurring but a murdered body was
found. Do you expect the police to ignore the obvious crime in plain view since
the call was false? Of course not.
Teenage kids having sex in every city in this country is their choice. Sure
their parents could possibly have been better examples and taught better
principles or the realities of birth control. But those kids made a choice. A
teenager in the FLDS religion married to an older man is given absolutely NO
CHOICE. Even if they believe they are doing the right thing they have never been
given another option due to brainwashing since birth. Let's drop the
PR for a moment and also acknowledge that kids growing up in religions that
teach arranged marriages, genital mutilation, or lifelong hiding behind a veil
are also NOT GIVEN A CHOICE. Dogmatic religion by it's very nature takes choice
away particularly when such teachings are repeated since birth. Whether it is
whispering a "testimony" in the ear of a 5 year-old every Fast Sunday or
teaching that they will go to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ is a way to
take away choice. Religious freedom has been elevated to such a status in this
country that we forget how important it is for individuals to have the freedom
of choice. Choice is removed when indoctrination is present since birth.
WAIT A MINUTE.... NOT ALL UTAHNS OR MORMONS ARE SYMPATHETIC TO THESE
PEOPLES CAUSE.I AM BOTH, MORMON AND WAS BORN AND RAISED IN UTAH. I
THINK TEXAS MAY HAVE MADE SOME MISTAKES IN THIS EVACUATION OF THE CHILDREN...
BUT.... ALL THE CHILDREN THERE ON THE COMPOUND DESERVE TO BE SAFE!!!I WATCHED THE WOMEN WHEN THEY WERE ON LARRY KING LIVE.... NONE OF THEM, WHEN
ASKED WHERE THE FATHERS TO THEIR CHILDREN WERE AT, WOULD ANSWER MR KING... IN ADDITION TO THAT, WHEN ASKED IF THEY DID ANYTHING ILLEGAL, THEY
STATED THEY WERE LAW ABIDING AMERICAN CITIZENS.... AND THEY HAD BROKEN NO
LAWS.POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW!!! MARRYING OFF YOUR 13-16 YEAR OLD
DAUGHTER IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!!IN THE INTERVIEW, I COULD TELL THEY
WANTED SYMPATHY AND THAT IS WHY THEY APPEARED. WHEN ASKED ANY QUESTIONS THAT
WOULD LEAD WATCHERS FROM GIVING THAT SYMPATHY, THEY WOULD NOT ANSWER!!!!!!I SAY SAVE THE CHILDREN AT ANY COST
"Teenage kids having sex in every city in this country is their choice."Actually the law says that any underage teenager is unable to give
consent, therefore FLDS is on equal footing with everywhere else underage
pregnancy occurs. "Choice" can't enter the discussion when the law has
determined that the minor lacks the maturity to make that choice. It's kind of
silly to claim that those girls made "their own decision" when their inability
to do so is the basis of the law to begin with. Further, if you were
to research underage pregnancy in the US, you would find that the age difference
is usually quite large most of the time. We can't post URLs here but if you are
willing to do the research you'll find it yourself, numerous studies have been
done on the issue. No, this is all political. They won't raid
abortion clinics, they have good lawyers.
If 13 year old girls and boys are not safe with their parents, why should I
believe that they are safe when they are 3? That flat personality that the
women have certainly wasn't taught overnight. It seems that all the FLDS women
are overdosed on Valium on every interview including old interviews not related
to this case. I am sure this is taught with a bit of a rod that is not
spared.If fathers force the child abuse, child sexual abuse, and
incest the mothers are guilty of collusion.
Re: Grow BrainsPolygamy is not legal in the United States. It is
impossible to legally marry more than one person. The FLDS only legally marry
one person, the others are "spiritual marriages" that are not recognized by the
government. Unless you want to start prosecuting adultery you can't prosecute
polygamy. Your comment that polygamy equals child abuse makes no
sense. Polygamy does not have to involve the marriage of children. I haven't
seen any comments defending pedophillia. But I have read many comments saying
that we should disregard the constitution and start prosecuting an entire
religious group based on the actions of some individuals. What is wrong with
saying that prosecutions should be done individually. If your neighbor commits
statutory rape, do you think that everybody that lives on the same block should
have their children taken away. I agree that some people need to GROW BRAINS.
The people who need to GROW BRAINS are those who can't recognize the difference
between defending the constitution and defending pedophiles.
You sound like Communist China... Your thinking scares me.
I am appalled at the naivete of the comments with the exception of a few of you.
Some of you are as vigilant in your own way as the FLDS and like the FLDS
women, do not recognize abuse for what it is.Before making any blatant
judgment about thishorrific situation, I looked at many other websitesand saw the videos and read stories from former FLDSmembers who escaped
and are working through a lifelong process of recovering from the damaging effects of abuse, mind control, and abandonment ofTHEIR MOTHERS! Read up
and then you'll GET SMART!!!If you have lived in AZ., Utah , Idaho, S.
Dakota,but mostly AZ. and Utah, your hard-earned tax dollars(welfare
fraud) have paid out millions to support polygamous lifestyles in the name of a
twisted religion led by men who have predatory appetites and call it"sacred".
THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEIR SICKNESS SO DANGEROUS!!!Yes, do watch Larry King
and Nancy Grace. Todd,right on, bud; No more Waco or Janet Reno!GOOGLE Fumerase Deficiency!Then you will praise God that the State of
Texashas the guts to protect children from sexual deviants and abusive,
"Choice is removed when indoctrination is present since birth."Parents have a right to "indoctrinate" their children as they see fit. It's
how culture is transmitted from one generation to the next. Whether or not
indoctrination is "bad" depends on the information being transferred. And most
of the time, what is "bad" and what isn't is an individual opinion.
When is CPS going to take the advice of their own witness-Psychiatrist Perry?
What about the reunification of mothers with small children and the ability of
the mother's with younger children to stay? Why are they not even taking their
own advice? More trauma is about to happen if something does not change, but I
don't know what the average person can do...
What is with some of you Utah folks? Texas is merely acting to protect these
innocent children from more abuse. These mothers are actually worse than the
fathers - they allow their daughters to be abused, and then lie to protect the
abusers. And they teach their children to lie.The kids need to break
free from this perverted way of life where they have no choice but to be raped
as well as brainwashed. I can't believe anyone would defend these "mothers" and
"fathers". They DON'T have their own children's best interest at heart. The men
should all be jailed and the women should lose their children until they agree
to be appropriate mothers.
To "Big Al"...great posts but I don't think anyone is listening.To:
Archaea Cougarguard: If you are really an attorney then you know the law
requires children to be in "immediate danger" before CPS can remove them from
the home.For all the self rightous Christians; won't it be great for
all these innocent children to be introduced to the sewer our society has
become? The 10 year old girls will be taught how to have safe sex with a boy
their own age, and how to recognize an STD.Correction on
generalizations: According to a CSP Affidavit there are 4 dirty old men at the
ranch, ages 30,37 and two that are 40. No 60 year olds!
GROW BRAINS has it correctly. Your allegory of a single party on the block
committing rape and the entier block being raided doesn't make sense. In this
particular case, it appears clear the community at large supports and condones
the marriage of multiple underage females as part of indoctrination; which is
why the state of Texas raided the compound. GROW BRAINS logic has merit; you're
is faulty, sir- you may be a nice person, but no legal scholar. Grow a brain.
The vast majority of these people are completely innocent: the kids, the
mothers, and probably most of the men. Ripping their families apart is awful --
and wrong.While the government should go after any abusers, what the Texas
government is doing qualifies as religious terrorism.
FLoyd: AMEN !!!
To all you Utahins on this blog defending the FLDS and up in arms over Texas
doing the right thing; is so easy for you to sit back and jump on Texas cps. If
you think the FLDS group does not need to be broken up, then why dont you sent
your 14 year old daughters down there to live. Ohhh!!! no way you say. Hmmmm
children should be with their moms and dads. It saddens me to know what texas
law is doing. Return the children to their parents. DNA takes years not weeks or
days. Foster homes is not the answer their own parents is the answer.
Texas shame shame.
I wonder why about 300 lawyers have taken residence near San Angelo at their own
expense and are willing to as serve as advocates for the children of the RLDS.
My guess is that the state of Texas will be sued for false arrest and the
lawyers will make a bundle. The men should be arrested if there a legitimet
complaint but the accuser can't even be found!
does anyone know if some of these children have both parents in other states?
By some reports these were hand picked individuals coming to the ranch in Texas,
could some of these minors DNA show that their parent is not in Texas at all,
and would this change the states position on custody/foster care for these
Mon. FLDS men will speak on CBS This Morning!One OLDER man said, "It is
my understanding that until a couple of years ago, it was legal for a
14-year old girl to get married in Texas." GET THE PICTURE?
I wish it were that easy!
All of you complaining of a 50yo man marrying a 14yo need to pay more attention!
The original caller made this up. It was a lie! A complete fabrication! There
was NO MARRIAGE between a 50yo and 14yo! Your outrage is misplaced!It appears that ALL of the pregnant women found so far among the FLDS are of
LEGAL marriagable age (16 and up). If marriage with underage children is so
predominant among the FLDS, then why weren't any of the 13, 14, or 15 year old
girls pregnant? Wouldn't at least some of them be further along and showing?
This wouldn't require a pregancy test to see the obvious.CPS has
admitted that they can't "magically" determine the age of the girls. They also
have ignored at least one birth certificate that proved the young woman to be an
adult. What good is DNA testing going to do when they don't believe the birth
certificates?I'm all for punishing child abusers. However, it MUST
be proven, just as any other crime. Otherwise, innocent parents and their
children are the ones to suffer, not the real abusers.
The Texas authorities had to move , they knew there was trouble brewing at the
compund and one phone call is all it took. Whether the phone call was legitimate
or not at least the Rangers and child protective services were able to see what
was going on inside the compund and thankfully they took action. I am sure as
more is discovered there will be charges filed against the polygamists and
hopefully everyone in the compound who is guilty of these crimes against the
children will be led off to jail and this miserable blight will finally be
extinguished.Hopefully they can deprograme some of the wives and get them
to talk and help reveal the attrocoties that have been commited and condoned
Living close to a FLDS group, I have seen how they go about, and for the most
part...they are very good people. They are kind and hard working. I think the mistake is that their leaders have taken them to extremes with
their religion with things like child marriages and separation from society. I
think that generally they feel innocent because they were only following their
true beliefs. But anyone who thinks old men should hook up with
teen-agers...in the name of religion needs their eyes opened. What if you would have gotten pregnant at age 13 from a hairy old pot bellied
man? What kind of life is that? It's sick and wrong. Let those
little girls grow up. Let them go out to ice cream with cute young boys, and
fall in love the natural way!
Ask the parent's what "breaking them" means?I can not believe
you people on here taking up for these child and woman abusers !!!!!!!!!Is
this the way you treat your kids and wife?Beat the living daylights out of
them? Tiny little babies, do you beat them and make them cry, then hold their
little face under a water faucet until they can't breath or cry anymore, over
and over and over again?You are a sorry bunch of humans, that
upholds domestic violence.
To Matt: Good post! There are 19 homes in that FLDS community, and your
example of this being like everyone on the block having their children removed
is accurate.All of you CPS supporters need to go read the Affidavits
instead of forming opinions based on media reports because some of your comments
have no basis in fact.
re sokol no one knows who the parents are.re G you are right it is
individual opinion and their opinion is that child rapr and abanment sorry cant
spell is all right , i have tryed to ask this three times now dont know
if this will be ran or not.1how can the state return children to parents
when mothers wont say who belongs to them and the childern dont know?2
part of the abuse is teaching wrong princapalshow old does a child have to
be before you can teach it?3how meny of you would want your children out
there and if not why? I am not flds and dont know any one that is so don't
know how much of what i read in the news is true but if if one half of it
is true i would not want anybodys child out thereif i get answered thank
if it dont run ill just stay in the dark JOHN
It is possible that one of the mothers or children is a Canadian, swapped from
the FLDS community in Bountiful, British Columbia, we have heard from our
Attorney-General. So, there might be cross-border DNA-testing as well. I am
very supportive of the way this very difficult situation is being handled by the
Texas authorities so far. A lot of sensitivity is being accorded to the
childrens' needs and rights, while actually doing something to intervene in
alleged cases of sexual abuse and neglectful education etc. The support from the
communities of Eldorado, San Angelo and the ranch where the older boys are
currently residing is impressive as well.
Go Texas.Finally a State with some guts. That Utah and Arizona had
"Place" the children? How absurd. Those children already have a place. Send
them back where they belong --- home again.
I believe every state allows minors to marry with parental consent. Perhaps
this is the case here.
I don't know if you're a genius. But in this crowd you sure sound like one!
To john B:1. Texas should've considered this before they conducted
this illegal seizure--but I trust they remember where the compound is.2. Who gets to decide what children should be taught by their parents? Do you
trust the government to do that? I don't. The First Amendment says it doesn't
matter what the children were taught, what matters is whether they were
physically abused. Some probably were, but you'll find that in any high school
in the country. Why take ALL the kids? 3. I'm not a member of FLDS
so I would not. But if I believed what FLDS believes, I would probably feel
differently. To answer your question, the mothers want their children back NOW,
and Texas doesn't care. So I don't see the purpose of your question. These posts are all screened by D-News before posting. That's why it takes a
long time to get through. Most of mine have though. Be polite, be patient, and
they'll get through.
Hey Todd, wasn't Jim Jones one of those bible-thumping evangelical preachers
like many found in texas?
I'm just a dumb cajun so can someone explain to me what happens when the CPS has
all the DNA tested on these children from Eldorado and on as many "parents" as
present themselves for testing, and then tests for fumarase deficiency and
fragile X syndrome and other genetic disorders caused by all the inbreeding this
FLDS group has been doing? Do you think that this incestuous bunch is going to
agree to "genetic counseling" or to voluntary sterilization?It seems
pretty obvious that a few men (Rulon Jeffs, Warren Jeffs, Willie Jessop, etc.)
have gotten very rich by breeding a compliant labor force. Anybody who showed
any intelligence or initiative was run off. The male followers have been used
for manual labor in agriculture or construction, while the females have been
used for breeding and collecting welfare payments. Some religion!
This is tragic but needs to be done. Polygamy is against the law and can't be
continued. Especially the way these people practice it with the inbreeding and
taking young girls and tossing out young boys. Hopefully this will
be the beginning of the end to it. It needs to be done in Utah and Arizona and
wherever these religious cults are. I would think the best homes
for these children to go to would be LDS. Typical foster homes are not going to
be good for them.
To: Re; ToddActually Jim Jones was from Indiana then he moved to
California before moving to a banana republic. It's actually very interesting
how Jeffs mirrors not only Jones but most other, well, no need to say more ....
If you look at the statistics of child abuse, death and sexual abuse in foster
care, it would make a lot more sense to return these mothers and all of the
children back to their homes. Remove all of the men if needed until this is
sorted out. Even if Texas had to feed them, and yes they are meager, and do not
ask for any 'designer clothing' it would be far less expensive than this. Now,
if they are forced to go to public schools, they will also be exposed to the new
heroin, for only the price of school lunch. Every day more damage will come to
these children. To those that believe they are not being educated; where do you
get your ideas? Do they dress different? Well, maybe the girls will now learn to
dress like little public hookers by kindergarten. Society has a lot of ills of
its own. Also, if you are only basing your opinion on those who have left the
FLDS, that is like talking to an ex-Mormon about what they think of their
church. Watch the documentary "BIBLE CAMP" if you want to see severe
psychological abuse in religious name.
Just pray...and pray long and hard for these children to whatever higher power
you believe in. Pray for protection, pray for the ability to trust again, pray
for health, and pray that any caretaker will love them as much as the mothers
who they have been stolen from. But, pray in private, and watch who is
listening. This country was based on religious freedom, but our Judicial system,
as predicted early on, has destroyed and re-written the laws to create nothing
but a mockery of the Constitution.Again, those at the ranch are to be commended
for their calm demeanor and shunning of violence. How many United States
citizens could behave this way if children were rounded up and taken on a mass
basis? We may not agree with their lifestyle, but being citizens, they do have
Hi, i play football for Highland High. I enjoy following this story and i hope
you all will listen to my advice. I think we should all love each other and
cherish the moments we have with each other. Love one another, as my grandad
used to tell me. Thank you.
There is a HUGE difference between society's 16 year old pregnant girls and 16
year old pregnant girls in the FLDS cult. The ones from the FLDS cult were told
they have to become pregnant by their parents. Society's girls went behind
their parents backs and became pregnant. BIG DIFFERENCE. LETS GET THIS
STRAIGHT. YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO AT ALL.
'Sigh'. I have not read a single comment in here promoting plural marriage,
teenage weddings nor condoning the behavior of the FLDS Cult. Yet still many
condone any act of the government to stop it. If you don't see anything wrong
with how the Texan government's behavior here, why not ask them to just bomb the
FLDS ranch? The main complaint of most commentors here is not with
why Texas acted, but how. They have had 5 years to investigate and find a
legitimate reason to prosecute individuals. Now they are using an excuse to
persecute a community. If you can't see the difference, or are proud of their
behavior, just go back to watching Oprah and enjoy your ignorance.
I do not see how putting these children in homes in the "Bible Belt" is
culturally sensitive. Maybe the people at CPS, who tend to be the type of
elitist liberals who consider "Bible Belt" to be an insult, are so unaware that
they think "Fundamentalist Mormons" and "Fundamentalists Christians" are
basically the same. Maybe the LDS Church has finally convinced someone
that they are Christian. So now since LDS=Christian, Fundementalist
LDS=Fundamentalist Christian. I hate to break it to the CPS people, but
putting the children in Fundamentalist Christian homes is the worst decision.
Now they will go from being told that they are going to hell if they associate
with outsiders to being told that they are going to hell because they believe
that Joseph Smith recieved revelation from God. I can't think of a worse
plan. Better would probably be putting the children in homes of people
in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, since so many in
Texas believe that LDS are an anti-Christian cult, anything approaching
preferential treatement in placing the children where they won't be told that
Joseph Smith was following the commands of the devil will cause outrage.
Jean, you said to let the children go home. Well they might just do that
when they find out where their home is.The mother's are denying their own
children, and the kids have no idea who their biological mothers are.So
how would you send them home, if no one knows where home is?Any idea?I didn't think so.
No one messes with Texas, they will mess it up themselves or their government
agencies will (CPS for example).Before the FLDS folks moved to
Texas, those government agencies were aware of the polygamist lifestyle of the
new FLDS residents. For whatever reason or motivations they allowed a ranch of
that size and magnitude to be established in Texas. That is a wonder to me.
Why, knowing what they previously understood, they allowed polygamy to infest
their great state?Don't whine big time for your own choices. You
brought it upon yourself!
Just to continue on my last comments. This move to put the children in "Bible
belt" homes just makes me think that this is religious persecution even more. I am not very convinced that even the most extreme liberals could confuse
Fundamentalist LDS and fundamentalist Christians. I am going more
towards the view that this is an organized persecution with the aim to detroy
the FLDS Church. I think the perpetrators are an unholy alliance of right
wingers who believe Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the power of
the devil and left wingers who want to destroy families and force people to
accept homosexuality with books like "Prince and Prince" given to
kindergarteners and making sure that every public library has a copy of a book
explaining that masterbation is perfectly normal and that any religion that
denounces it is out of line in its childrens section. To say such people
are involved in this persecution may be a bit much. However they are out there,
and if they can win their fight to use child protective services here, how long
until any parent who teaches that homosexuality is wrong will loose their child?
I noticed no toys in the house or yard.I also did not see any puppies,
cats or bunnies anywhere around the compound either.Did anyone else see
any toys or animals for the kids?
Wow, this is truly amazing. Have you people listened to any of the ladies who
managed to escape about what goes on? Do you realize this Jeff character took
children away from one family and "gave" them to another? You really think
right-thinking people should just sit by and say "Oh, well, child rape is part
of their religion?" Really? This is all about men controlling and dominating
women and little girls. You think that's OK?
Shut these twisted perverts down, move them in with Warren Jeffs, then sell the
ranch to pay for the court costs and the care of all these children.Enough of you sickos for making excuses for child rape and abuse! A pox on
your houses for calling evil good. Comparing these rapes and forced marriages
and other obvious abuses to any mistakes kids make on their own is ludicrous.Still proud to be a Texan and thanking God daily I am not from Utah or
Arizona where women and kids are apparently second class citizens undeserving of
Anyone who thinks that most pregnancies of teenage girls come from teenage
boys is wilfully ignorant. There is way too much evidence for large age
differences that to claim otherwise is atrocious. On the other hand I
think there are more cases prosecuted in this matter than people admit. Still,
many pregnant teenagers have a child whose father is over the age of 30.
The FLDS needs to be remaned to WSLDS Wife Swapping Latter Day Saints. Does
anyone know the ratio of men to women to children in this cult:Men =
5Women = 20Children = 416The adults need to
be arrested. The women won't claim their children by name, the women won't say
their last names (do they know their last names or is this so CRAZY?) Where are
the men anyway? Where are they hiding? The children don't know who their
parents are. This is MADDNESS.How do these people keep each other
straight. Do they wear name badges, or numbers, or do the womens' dresses
signify who they are by color code?Could it be possible that these
people set up a sex ranch in the lords name although the lord does not approve
of any of this? The men need to stop taking Viagra RIGHT NOW. Has testing been
done for STDs? These adults are GROSS. Don't the women have
natural intuition regarding what is right for their children?
Marrying a 13 year old is not a prosecutable crime. Having sex with a 13
year old is. So the fact that marriages may have been performed at some given
age has no bearing on what laws have been broken. The state has to be
able to demonstrate actual sexual relation before a given age. To claim that
the evidence of a marriage is evidence of sexual abuse does not stand up to
logic. I for one will admit that I am standing up for the rights of the
accused. People ARE innocent until proven guilty. Just because the state has
chosen to use the child custody route where this rule does not always apply, you
can not just go around making those of us who speak for the bill of rights some
kind of criminal.
CPS says in court there are at least 5 girls pregnant at 16. What they
need to prove is both the age and who the father is. They should start with
these particular girls and let us see them prove they were not 17 when they
became pregnant. In Texas, for instance, the age of consent is 17 and
the minimum age of child is 14 with an age differential of 3 years; thus,
individuals who are at least 14 years of age can legally engage in sexual
activities if the defendant is less than 3 years older than the accuser (Texas
Penal Code 22.011(a)(2)). So a 14 year old can engage in sex with a 17yr
old . A 15 yr old can engage in sex with an 18 year old. A 16 yr old with a 19
yr old. And a 17 yr old with any age from 14 to 99 and it is not a crime for her
Texas has the guts...Dont mess with Texas..Gimme a break. I'm sure Texas wanted
some resistance when they stormtrooped the compound, so they could burn it to
the ground soos they could protect someone.
Two wrongs don't make a right. - underage kids getting pregnant, not
goodHowever, there is a worse thing:- taking away 400
plus people against their will due to a hoax - not presenting evidence in
each and every single case where the government took away a child from a
familyone guilty person does not equal 400 guilty persons.
It is shocking and alarming to Christians that so many LDS seem to be supporting
the FLDS. There is suspected child abuse going on. Why is it so difficult to
understand that is must be investigating thoroughly before the kids can possibly
live with their families again? As I've suspected more and more over the years,
polygamy is a much bigger part of the LDS belief system than is ever admitted.
My question is why didn't they take the men? They were the perpetrators, they
committed the crime. What kind of thinking decided the innocent children should
be so traumatized....aren't they the victims??If they would have left the
women and children at the compound and removed all the men they could have
posted guards to keep the men out and the children would have been much better
off while the state investigated what is actually going on.
Is anyone in the world free? I'd like to live the life of a multi-millionaire
but the credit collectors won't let me. Can I have the Texas CPS take thier
children away too? Do a little research. The childrens' court appointed
guardians have even said that living conditions at the ranch were above average.
There is NO sign that ANY child currently in the custody of the state was abused
under ANY legal definition of the word abuse. BIGAMY is illegal. Polygamy is a
lifestyle. I firmly support putting pedophiles in jail (or under the jail). But
the majority of the people in this compound ARE NOT pedophiles. The state of
Texas has seriously overstepped their authority and set a frightening precedent
in this case. The right to think like anyone else thinks is NOT a requirement of
ANY law. The right to freedom of religion IS a constitutionally protected
freedom. Without evidence of immediate danger to their well being (other than
disagreeing with their parents religious beliefs) these children need to be
returned to thier parents where they belong.
Child abuse is an epidemic in the US. Unfortunately we haven't been able to
convince the majority of abusers to confine their environment to an easily
'raidable' parcel of land.Utah will never do their people justice
because the LDS still believe polygamy is the way to eternal salvation. Has
anyone read D&C 132 lately?? Gone to the temple lately? It's cognitive
dissonance at it's finest. How pathetically has the Church responded to this
situation?It sickens me. This, people, is the legacy of Joseph
Smith. This is reaping what we sow. This is instant Karma...I'm
POSITIVE there is an equal amount of child abuse right in our own back yard. How
about some righteous indignation for our own mothers and children. Look around
and DO something.
Joyce:Imagine your neighbors abuse their children. You attend the
same church, but there is no evidence you abuse your children. The government
comes and takes away both you and your neighbors children. Most
commentors here are not supporting abuse of any kind. We are just asking why
Texas CPS is persecuting before prosecuting. Why did they use a phony anonomys
phone call as an excuse instead of real evidence as a reason.
The problem is with your logic. These people live TOGETHER...communally. If
one boy is abandoned, do other FLDS place him in their home or do they also shun
the 13 year old competition for females? They obviously shun him as well. If a
girl or woman attempts to run away, does someone within the group help or tattle
on her? Well, we know that the "police" have a history of returning the
females. We also know that other wives tattle on one another. Holding a person
against their will is illegal in case you didn't know. The question would be
more appropriate to suggest this scenerio: If a neighbor abused their children
and you held the children down, should you have your children removed? My
answer, yes!!As far as the "phony call," imagine this: A phony I see
someone robbing a house call is made. The police arrived and investigate to
find a murder. You seem to think the murder should be ignored because a "phony
call" is what got them there. I say you find a crime, you investigate further.
Not all women went back to the compound even though the FLDS women claim so.
For all of you that are crying out about Rights under the Constitution, please
point out where in the Rights it states that you are permitted to commit crimes
for that religion? Are you permitted to withhold insulin from a diabetic child?
Nope. In those cases appropriate murder charges have been filed. Are you
permitted to place your child on an altar, sacrificing him to God? Nope. This
is no different. You may not abandon your minor son because he is a threat to
the men of the community. You may not FORCIBLY marry your daughter the church
authorities have demanded it after you, as a mother, notifies those authorities
that she has reached puberty. You may not hold people against their will so
that they may not leave. 6 Women are KNOWN to have requested a safe house
refusing to go to the compound. You may not commit welfare fraud because
"bleeding the beast" and "lying for the Lord" are considered holy and sacred.How unfortunate the people of the Church not following the authorities and
show their is a difference between the two groups. One is willing to commit
crimes (flds) the other not (LDS.)
"It is shocking and alarming to Christians that so many LDS seem to be
supporting the FLDS. There is suspected child abuse going on."The
only reason "Christians" aren't outraged at this affront to civil liberties is
because FLDS is "different" from you. If these were Baptist men abusing Baptist
girls in the basement of a Baptist megachurch, do you think Texas CPS would take
every child from every household that attends the church? Of course not.
Baptists aren't "weird". If CPS came to your homes and took 200 or
so of your daughters, you think they wouldn't find four or five (about 2% of the
total) that were abused? Be honest now.
"Utah will never do their people justice because the LDS still believe polygamy
is the way to eternal salvation."The LDS church supported the Short
Creek raid publicly, and suffered a public relations disaster as a result. Google it.
FLDS is in no way a 'religion'.It is simply a cult.
There is an affront to Civil LIberties, but you seem to be very confused as to
the victims. You seem to consider the "victims" the whole of the FLDS. You
seem to not be familiar with the group and how they function. A
woman has a son. He turns 13 and is reaching puberty at an early age. The
girls in the compound notice this young boy and find his "comely." Church
authorities notice his "immoral" behavior (how dare he draw the attention of
girls his own age to him?!!) Church authorities tell him to immediately leave
the compound. Do you understand immediately, or does that confuse you? No
other family, including nursing mothers, takes him into their home but AS A
GROUP ALL SHUN him. Actually it is child abandonment.The real
question is: Why are so many here not outraged at the communal nature of the
Would you try and reason with Charles Manson's "family?" ... well would you? ...
so don't even both with these types!
This matter of draconian misuse of power by CPS is nothing new. It follows the
feminist agenda: "All men are potential rapists", and if that doesn't work, " I
felt threatened" These man-hating women can "feel Threatened" at the drop of a
hat and call out the guns on anyone who opposes their agenda.What
happened to the First Amendment? (we all know that it has been diminished by
the Bush administration) This matter should be tried on a case by case basis.
Wholesale arrest and the punisment of babies is shocking and
unconstitutional.And no one of power or consequence steps forward to
mediate. The LDS are too afraid of messing up their public image to be
Christians, and the politicians have the same problem. I often
wondered why Clinton didn't come forth as a peacemaker during the Branch
Davidian raid. That was a travesty of justice and this is just another black
mark on the state of Texas.
I was also heartbroken to think of my own child to be taken away from me. Then I
thought about my daugter being taken from at 13 and given to old man to rape and
impregnate. I hope that Texas can save a few daughters and sons!
These are not just women marrying young. These are women being forced to marry
relatives!! Incest is not right. This seems like a big undertaking to find the
truth and do what's best for the children. I hope the state of Texas handles
Government run amuck. What reason will they need to strip your kids away?
Perhaps I should make one phone call and tell some lies. When some govt. agency
shows up at your door to take your kids, then you'll understand. Keep justifying
this type of governemt action and you'll be the next one fighting to get your