Reader comments
Child welfare worker describes FLDS ranch as 'scary environment'
243 comments | Read story
Troy Evitt | 8:41 a.m. April 18, 2008
Is the Unibrow considered "attractive" to FLDS males?
To in defense of the defenders | 8:43 a.m. April 18, 2008
If the state had not removed all of the children and had only taken the
obviously underage pregnant girls, do you really think that the rest of the kids
would have been safe from the people that failed to keep the underage girls safe
in the first place? My thought on this is that the children would have been
moved to another compound. Read up on how Warren Jeffs managed to stay under
the radar before he was arrested. There is a reason that these people moved to
Texas. They were his "Chosen". Supposedly it is "OK" that
some of these women and children were taken from their families in UTAH and
Arizona, but it is "Not OK" that the State of Texas is trying to
protect them.
Amara | 9:47 a.m. April 18, 2008
After a look into the YfZ compound and a chance to see the vacant women who
inhabit it, I can only ask: what is WRONG with UT and AZ to turn a blind eye to
this!?
If I were a resident of either I would launch a class action suit of taxpayers to force them to break this cycle of abuse and sexual exploitation. Shame on all of you who are who don't!
If I were a resident of either I would launch a class action suit of taxpayers to force them to break this cycle of abuse and sexual exploitation. Shame on all of you who are who don't!
Comments continue below
Definately Polygamy | 9:59 a.m. April 18, 2008
Is the "abuse of power". We have many examples, many arrests and some
court cases won. The beliefs of this group causes abuse (not always, but enough
times). This is the USA people and we will help these children. And by the
way, many of them don't know their own ages or who their own mothers are!
Also, there have been numerous complaints about mothers being "kicked
out" of their groups (in Utah, Arizona and Texas) by the abusive men
telling them they are no longer "worthy". They do it to themselves
too! These people need help and they're finally getting it.
In Defense of the Defenders 2 | 10:13 a.m. April 18, 2008
I think we�re getting somewhere.
Let�s continue this respectful debate.
For argument�s sake, let�s just say the man originally accused was and still is there in the compound, and the accusation was legitimate. Why not arrest the suspect or at least remove him as the children were. What next?
I think this is going to be the part where we actually disagree. Is it fair or constitutional to write off every man in the compound as abusers? Until they�ve all been investigated and/or interviewed, I think it�s unethical and immoral to throw a blanket of guilt over all of them.
Granted, if there are some yet among them at that point who are a credible threat to the children, then arrest them. You can keep the impact small, and punishment directed toward the guilty, while the innocent are allowed to remain in their homes, families intact.
Regarding allegations that this sect reassigns family members, if that�s true, it only impacts the sect. The problem many people have with the armed raid and kidnapping CPS, DFPS, etc. appear to be drunk with power and run amok. They have too much power and too little responsibility. They�re a threat to all parents.
For argument�s sake, let�s just say the man originally accused was and still is there in the compound, and the accusation was legitimate. Why not arrest the suspect or at least remove him as the children were. What next?
I think this is going to be the part where we actually disagree. Is it fair or constitutional to write off every man in the compound as abusers? Until they�ve all been investigated and/or interviewed, I think it�s unethical and immoral to throw a blanket of guilt over all of them.
Granted, if there are some yet among them at that point who are a credible threat to the children, then arrest them. You can keep the impact small, and punishment directed toward the guilty, while the innocent are allowed to remain in their homes, families intact.
Regarding allegations that this sect reassigns family members, if that�s true, it only impacts the sect. The problem many people have with the armed raid and kidnapping CPS, DFPS, etc. appear to be drunk with power and run amok. They have too much power and too little responsibility. They�re a threat to all parents.
DeeInKC | 10:28 a.m. April 18, 2008
Why is this happening in America?? This sounds like Hitler rounding up the
Jews.
Let those children go back to their Mothers!!!!
Shame on the Judge and the person that ordered the police to go in and take them. This is not right.
Someone should have to pay but it shouldn't be the children. They are afraid and traumitized. Let them go home before there is a hugh turnout at that courthouse. Shame on Judge Barbara Walther!!!!!
Let those children go back to their Mothers!!!!
Shame on the Judge and the person that ordered the police to go in and take them. This is not right.
Someone should have to pay but it shouldn't be the children. They are afraid and traumitized. Let them go home before there is a hugh turnout at that courthouse. Shame on Judge Barbara Walther!!!!!
Amara | 11:48 a.m. April 18, 2008
Assuming that it is a man or men who are the sole abusers may be the fallacy.
It's possible that the women are accessories to it -- even accepting that
they clearly seem to have been profoundly abused themselves -- and that the
community in its entirety is abusive and dangerous to the well-being of
children.
With my judgment suspended until facts are established I'm inclined to come down on protecting the children from the possibility that the entire YfZ was organized as a tool for exploitation and subjugation. I see enough probably cause to justify it.
With my judgment suspended until facts are established I'm inclined to come down on protecting the children from the possibility that the entire YfZ was organized as a tool for exploitation and subjugation. I see enough probably cause to justify it.
joelaf | 1:09 p.m. April 18, 2008
It is being reported elsewhere that so far, at least 20 girls 16 or UNDER have
been found to be pregnant or already mothers. You won't read that here. On
the Today show, the mothers interviewed would not respond to the question
"has their been sexual abuse?" or "how young is too young for a
girl to marry?" Their attorney answered "his clients HAVE NO MINIMUM
AGE FOR MARRIAGE". But I guess they really are loving people, if sex with
children defines love.
To "In Defense" | 1:09 p.m. April 18, 2008
You ask why the children should be taken if the fathers are the abusers and why
not just investigate them and punish them if necessary. I agree with Amara that
the fathers do not look like the sole offenders.
MAYBE! | 1:37 p.m. April 18, 2008
Maybe the 16 year old did exist but not anymore. That's possibly why the
men didn't put up a fight.
SparkyVA | 1:38 p.m. April 18, 2008
In another article, the CPS said 5 girls under the age of 18 were pregnant. This
is spin. The legal age to marry in Texas is 16. I assume there may be some of
that 5 under 16, but how many. Using 18 sounds like a cheap way to inflate the
numbers.
Are You Serious? | 1:39 p.m. April 18, 2008
DeeInKC- Your comments seem to take a pro-sexual abuse stance. Are you serious?
Re: To "In Defense" | 1:53 p.m. April 18, 2008
I for one think that it�s wrong to write off all the men,
or any of the women as abusers until they�ve all been
fairly and impartially investigated and clearly shown to be such. The commonly
agreed upon opinion that their religion is creepy or strange is not
incriminating enough, yet the sentiment that it IS seems to color an awful lot
of criticism of these folks. Notice comments like
�unibrow�, �lack
of emotion�, �dirty old
men�, �puppy
mill�, �normal
life�, etc. I really doubt these people are getting a fair
shake when their critics are saying these things and the
�law� is pointing fully automatic
weapons in the faces while driving into their compound in APCs.
It�s becoming apparent that there may be a thin line between religious freedom and illegal behavior (secular society�s craven desire to obliterate Christian religion aside). This case in San Angelo is going to dwell in blurry ideas and conflict of ideas. I can only hope the story we get on this is the naked truth, and not filtered, varnished, or passed through the prisms of bigotry, suspicion, fear, envy, apathy, or malice.
And I hope these children�s suffering is minimized.
It�s becoming apparent that there may be a thin line between religious freedom and illegal behavior (secular society�s craven desire to obliterate Christian religion aside). This case in San Angelo is going to dwell in blurry ideas and conflict of ideas. I can only hope the story we get on this is the naked truth, and not filtered, varnished, or passed through the prisms of bigotry, suspicion, fear, envy, apathy, or malice.
And I hope these children�s suffering is minimized.
Re: MAYBE! | 2:15 p.m. April 18, 2008
There's an interesting article about a possible hoax right here at Deseret
News. You might find it interesting food for thought.
White Hot NUCLEAR RAGE | 3:06 p.m. April 18, 2008
I am disgusted by the vicious lynch mob masquerading as a family court. As a
veteran, this is NOT what I was fighting to defend. I hope FLDS sues the state
of Texas into bankruptcy, right down to all the oil beneath the stare.
proudmommy777 | 3:45 p.m. April 18, 2008
If girls are being forced to marry young and have children, then ALL these
mothers are victims. Why on earth are they taking the children from the
mothers? All the mothers are victims and need to be helped, regardless of how
old they are. Taking the children away from the "victims" isn't
right either. They need to go after the person or people who were actually
abusing the children. Trust me, if a father is abusing the children, chances
are, he's abusing the mother as well, especially if she's only a
teenager. It's not like these poor women are abusing the children too, or
sitting there allowing it to happen, they are being abused themselves! Everyone
says "poor girls" because they are being forced to marry and have kids
so young, but we forget that even the older women were forced into this! Worst
of all, they were told their whole lives that if they didn't follow along,
they'd go to hell... a place, as I've said before, that is VERY REAL
to them. I feel sorry for ALL the mothers as well as the children. They all
have a right to be "rescued" from the abuse.
G | 3:59 p.m. April 18, 2008
Even if Texas doesn't return the children, what do you pro-CPS folks
propose doing about the children those FLDS women are going to be having over
the next few years? More children are going to be born in that church no matter
Judge Walthers decides to do with these. Are you going to come back every year
and harvest them for your foster system? They have a 10,000 member base and
believe in having as many kids as possible. I don't think Texas can afford
to do this very often.
Also, they've been around for more than a century, and have endured this sort of thing before in the '40s and '50s. They are not going to go away just because of this.
What's your plan? Other than doing the sensible thing and arresting some of the men and leaving the rest of them alone.
Also, they've been around for more than a century, and have endured this sort of thing before in the '40s and '50s. They are not going to go away just because of this.
What's your plan? Other than doing the sensible thing and arresting some of the men and leaving the rest of them alone.
Draw the line on Relgious Freedo | 6:01 p.m. April 18, 2008
Religous freedoms should not include marriage of young girls, mind abuse and
control of people's minds to the point of making them not know their own
birthdays, mothers, or whether they are "worthy" to be in their group.
This does not fall into the category of "religious freedoms" and that
line is now being drawn. Religious freedom does not include taking
people's rights away for the sake of the group. People should be able to
freely choose what religion they are in or stay in. I was glad for this
religious freedom when I did not feel good in my religion and needed to find
another (or none at all).
fightchildabuse | 6:33 p.m. April 18, 2008
Child abuse is simple - having sex with a child is wrong whether you are a
polygamist or not. The men & women should be held criminally responsible
and all the children should be removed & not allowed to go back or have any
visitation with anyone from that complex - ever. It is dispicable that the FLDS
mothers have defended the molestation of their children & want to return
them to a life of abuse and slavery. This compound needs to be shut down
permanently.
I agree | 7:31 p.m. April 18, 2008
It is surprising and sad that there are some people on this website that would
want these children returned to this lifestyle which would certainly continue on
this cycle of abuse.
Pat | 8:43 a.m. April 19, 2008
When abuse is going on and no-one tells about it, thats sick! Did you see the
interview those mothers gave? As soon as someone started asking about abuse
their eyes started to blink and they started to look away. They KNOW it was
wrong!
Re: White Hot NUCLEAR RAGE | 8:59 a.m. April 19, 2008
My brother is currently fighting in Afghanistan, and I can tell you that this is
exactly what he's fighting to stop. The FLDS and the Taliban have so much
in common it�s disgusting. They both abuse women and
children in the name of God. They both look at women as possessions, not
people. They both use mind control techniques to scare their followers into
obeying the leaders. I want to thank you for your service to our country, but I
beg you to check your conscious on this issue. These children
aren�t given the liberty that you fought so hard to
protect.
To everyone else, no matter what your religion, let�s all pray for these children.
To everyone else, no matter what your religion, let�s all pray for these children.
DC Talkers | 3:18 p.m. April 19, 2008
The judge is on her way out as her term is reported to end on 12/31/08. There
seems to be a lot more to this than WMD in Iraq, I mean perverts in WACO, I mean
Eldorado... She even looks like Reno in appearance. I am sure the inspector
general will validate this whole thing. After all, this is a huge expense to tax
payers. We care about kids, but crying wolf and seeing this round up of the
Indians, I mean the Jews, I mean the Mormons makes many of us wonder what
happend to the ACLU or Amnisty International. If these folks wanted to bow down
to chickens and wear bones in thier nose they have that right. One girl from one
family may have called not 400. This looks so much like the concerns of... well
you know he was a short little jewish man with a mustache...that felt a certain
religion needed to go away...
American Patriot | 5:27 p.m. April 19, 2008
This is a crime by the Government of Texas. No entity, especially the govt.,
has the right to interfere with people's life, liberty or property. We are
becoming a more totalitarian society with the passage of time. Why is it that
when people make mistakes, they stop and correct them, but when govt. makes
mistakes, they just keep going? Trying their hardest to cover their aisses when
they should be sitting their aisses in prison. It's time for all people
who believe in the "rule of law" to insist our govt. officials follow
it. The audacity of the ruling class to think they know best just grinds me. I
see it at the national, state and local level. WE THE PEOPLE must take back our
country from this corrupted ruling class which abuses its power and authority.
John Lambert | 12:44 a.m. April 20, 2008
It seems the fathers did appear in this case.
Suzanne | 3:01 p.m. April 20, 2008
The welfare of children must come first. If girls under the age of consent (17
in Texas) or with parental permission (16)--but without their own--are being
married off, then this is abuse. It's also abusive for underaged girls to
be giving birth--again, IF that is true.
It also happens to be against the law to have multiple spouses--and such unions should not receive government benefits. Families receiving assistance should be reviewed to determine their eligibility, potential for wage-earning work, child support, and the like. Welfare-to-work programs work in many areas.
On the surface, there appears to be reasons to investigate the allegations. In such cases, it's appropriate for the child to be separated from his or her parents so investigators can interview the child without undue influence by the parents (think Stockholm syndrome here).
Separating a child from his or her parent is dangerous territory. However, so is being brought to a man two or three times your age (while you're still a young teenager) and being dictated to marry him and give birth as soon as possible. There is no personal freedom or equality in this situation and it violates the vital concept of "freedom and justice for all."
It also happens to be against the law to have multiple spouses--and such unions should not receive government benefits. Families receiving assistance should be reviewed to determine their eligibility, potential for wage-earning work, child support, and the like. Welfare-to-work programs work in many areas.
On the surface, there appears to be reasons to investigate the allegations. In such cases, it's appropriate for the child to be separated from his or her parents so investigators can interview the child without undue influence by the parents (think Stockholm syndrome here).
Separating a child from his or her parent is dangerous territory. However, so is being brought to a man two or three times your age (while you're still a young teenager) and being dictated to marry him and give birth as soon as possible. There is no personal freedom or equality in this situation and it violates the vital concept of "freedom and justice for all."
Adultery? | 4:45 p.m. April 20, 2008
John | 10:08 a.m. Apr. 17, 2008
"This is Communism at it's finest. What is the FLDS guilty of? Adultry period. If the Texans want to press charges for that then they better have many of their own judges and government officials line up for that as well, I'm sure they are also guilty of adultry. Way to go Texas."
--It's amazing to read the majority of posts here. Quick to defend supposed religious freedom but equating the illegal rape of minors to simply "adultery." 14 year old CHILDREN as mothers does not equal adultery. Do you really think all of the minor female children either currently pregnant or already mothers are willing "spouses" and the crime is men committing adultery? How about defending the rights of children? Scary
"This is Communism at it's finest. What is the FLDS guilty of? Adultry period. If the Texans want to press charges for that then they better have many of their own judges and government officials line up for that as well, I'm sure they are also guilty of adultry. Way to go Texas."
--It's amazing to read the majority of posts here. Quick to defend supposed religious freedom but equating the illegal rape of minors to simply "adultery." 14 year old CHILDREN as mothers does not equal adultery. Do you really think all of the minor female children either currently pregnant or already mothers are willing "spouses" and the crime is men committing adultery? How about defending the rights of children? Scary
RE: American Patriot | 7:13 a.m. April 21, 2008
When you say that "no entity, especially the govt., has the right to
interfere with people's life, liberty, or property" just where do the
children fit in? Are they property? Or would you simply put multi-married older
men having sex with underage girls under the "pursuit of happiness"
umbrella?
The "rule of law" you talk about also says it's against the law to have multiple spouses or underage marriages. Sounds like you don't mind those laws being violated.
The "rule of law" you talk about also says it's against the law to have multiple spouses or underage marriages. Sounds like you don't mind those laws being violated.
Texas girl | 12:59 p.m. April 21, 2008
I am so glad we intervened! these young girls are turned into sex slaves and
baby producers unwillinly! The kids need to be removed and kept away from their
crazy parents from staying at this ranch. God Bless Texas!
wow | 4:40 p.m. April 21, 2008
how long can people stand by ..probably as long as it takes to change the
hairstyles.
Wow | 5:09 p.m. April 21, 2008
It seems to me the Kingston clan is in full force posting on the comments page.
Sorry, but this is not about Polygamy but forced CHILD sexual abuse, forced
child incest (we know that Warren Jeffs is in Jail for those two) but there is
more. We know that at least 6 women are in safe houses rather than return to
the compound. I wonder how long they wanted to leave but could not? There is
also child abandonment of boys that are seen as competition for the females by
other males.
The Kingston's believe they are of the same lineage as Jesus, therefore it is a Royal Lineage, which they believe excuses them when they commit incest.
The Kingston's believe they are of the same lineage as Jesus, therefore it is a Royal Lineage, which they believe excuses them when they commit incest.
Altari | 5:11 p.m. April 21, 2008
I can't believe the gall of Ms. Voss. I would hope that, when knowing
someone was coming to take my children away, my husband, my father, my male
friends would surround and be as intimidating as possible. Whether what they
were doing was right or wrong, these men were standing "everywhere"
because people were coming to take away their wives and children.
mansel | 10:24 p.m. April 21, 2008
This is patently illegal from the time the search warrant was issued. This
action will be appealed and somewhere up the line a higher court will throw all
this stuff out. However, in the intervening years irreparable harm will have
been done to these small children. The judge and the Child Protective Services
idiots have a firm grasp of the tar baby and don't know how to turn it
loose.
Kingston Clan? | 10:41 p.m. April 21, 2008
Bizarre. As an outsider I'm very shocked that the state of Utah allows all
these polygamous cults to exist out in the open. Yep, they're all feeling
threatened right about now, for sure, they'll circle the wagons and try to
create another Short Creek. Ain't gonna happen ya'll. This ain't
the 1950s ...
James McDowell | 5:35 p.m. April 22, 2008
Their are so many of you so sympathetic for these mother. It is a shame that
you all that supports the FLDS, also support raping of minors, there has been
lots of evidence over the years, but nothing has ben done until now. When the
abuse of children in envolved true or not it need to be investigated. How
would you like for your daughters to be raped and marriaged by a 50th year old
man. On television during the interview male and felmale, they answer questions
like robots. This is American, and abuse of children is wrong, you and all the
rest who believed that this organization has not done anything wrong is just as
bad as they are. They are ripped off the food stamps program and welfare. So
you believed they were done wrong, why don't you help support them, because
I am sure the government will take away their food stamps and welfare benefits.
Canadian | 7:53 p.m. April 22, 2008
CPS everywhere need to be abolished!!1
Linden Zier | 9:02 p.m. April 22, 2008
I agree with McDowell. This is America we can't have this people run a
mockery of our values. It was bad enough that the social workers were scared.
That was enough to take the children away. The environment was also not good.
THEY were teaching this kids not to value women. I think they should use the
same justification to take the children away from all people that claim to be of
any religion. They teach intolerance and portrait women as subservient.
Don't forget to take the children away from the Muslims too. God knows that
they don't value women at all. How about those parents that send their kids
to the Boy Scouts? All that intolerance has got to be considered abuse! This is
America! Let the goverment raise our children! Hope you get my point...
Eric v. K. | 7:47 a.m. April 23, 2008
This is cultural genocide, pure and simple.
concerned parent | 4:55 p.m. April 24, 2008
I do not agree that all the children should have been removed. Show me a
neighborhood in any TX town that doesn't have a pregnant teenager. At least
they marry the girls off to one partner instead of adding to the STD's that
our state holds the record for. Should we remove every child that lives in a
pregnant teenagers home? What about the public schools that allow these children
unsupervised time so that they can have sex. Lets focus on things that could be
changed. This sect has been around along time and will continue. This just
proves to the children that all they have been taught about the
"outsiders" is true. Their families may not believe like the popular
public, but CPS and foster care is not with out concerns and major issues
either. Let these children stay with their families until a full investagation
has been carried out. There is no way that they can hide that many children
without being noticed. Wait, I bet the state can lose them though.
Grandma Anna | 8:37 p.m. April 25, 2008
I would venture to say that the harm already done by the state "child
welfare" do-gooders to the psychologies, personalities (souls, if you will)
of these young children will prove to be much more severe and difficult to
repair and will prove to cause more misery, pain, maladjustment, and social
problems for them than anyone has yet mentioned. Those Nazi-like and
Communist-like siezures of children are based on the assumption that the
"State" knows best how to raise your children. Those actions will
prove to be the biggest of all acts of child abuse!!
Tracey (italy) | 4:42 a.m. April 29, 2008
Does nobody out there think it strange that under the guise of religion there
are men out there who manage to create a closed comunity in which they set up
rules to allow the repression of women while giving vent to their own pleasures
.I bet the women can't have 6 husbands. The situation in this community is
not even remotly "normal" .Why don't they for example have older
women with young 16 yr old boys,It's simple ,this is a perverted sense of
anything that is remotly healthy and is a long way from being spiritual or
religious. How strange, men get to make their own rules ,for their own pleasure
in the name of religion. HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF.
Anonymous | 4:40 a.m. April 30, 2008
I know of numerous girls under 18 who have babies in the "hood". They
even collect food stamps. You see them every day calling the children stupid
and abusing them in many ways. Why not round them up and take these childlren
away to a 'safe place'.
The difference, it seems to me, these "hood" children's parents do not have hundreds of acres of great land to be confiscated.
The difference, it seems to me, these "hood" children's parents do not have hundreds of acres of great land to be confiscated.
johnp | 1:02 p.m. May 21, 2008
This is just wrong. Thus far there are only allegations. Again why are the
teen moms being further persecuted?
The children didn't know their real moms? oh please?
Demand some truth from your media sources. Talk show hosts are for entertainment purposes only.
The children didn't know their real moms? oh please?
Demand some truth from your media sources. Talk show hosts are for entertainment purposes only.
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