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Mysterious Sarah may be unnecessary in Texas bid to keep FLDS children
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Pauline | 10:25 p.m. April 16, 2008
If the FLD people would cooperate with law enforcement to ensure that the
children in the community were protected this raid would have been unneccesary.
But the fact is, the crimes of this community against their children is deep set
in their culture and covered up. Children are abused and the purpitrators go
unpunished. They marry underage girls to old men against their will and get away
with it all the time. It is about time. Thank you Texas for making a stand when
Utah and Arizona continues to do hardly anything. Caroline Jessop wrote a book
called "Escape" that is very enlightening. Read it!
Local News? | 10:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
Why does KSL call this a "local story" instead of a national story?
It seems they have taken extraordinary interest in it. True, it's a big
story but their are other things out there. As an LDS member, I want to find
out answers to this question? Is there someting I am missing?
Mike Huckableat | 10:26 p.m. April 16, 2008
These good Texas peace officers are doing God's will. He created the earth
in six days, rested the seventh, and created born-again-justice on the eighth.
Comments continue below
Pres. Dubya | 10:28 p.m. April 16, 2008
I agree with Mike. I overheard Sarah's call while eavesdropping on
terroists, and these kids should've have been removeled.
CA | 10:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
Walt...you make no sense throwing the LDS in with the FLDS. Different,
completely.
Why did you not throw the Catholic horror stories in as well.
Everyone can paint a bleak picture.
leave this up to the authorities to find out what is happening and quit comparing religions.
Why did you not throw the Catholic horror stories in as well.
Everyone can paint a bleak picture.
leave this up to the authorities to find out what is happening and quit comparing religions.
There is a ward | 10:35 p.m. April 16, 2008
In San Angelo. It's right next to what used to be Good Fellow AFB. You
can see it from my former barracks. Why not some of those members taking in
some kids? What about kinship right here in Utah? I think Texas has overstepped
it's bounds on this one, and will do what it takes to make sure they have a
case - even if it means geting kids to lie.
Horray for Texas | 10:49 p.m. April 16, 2008
I hope Texas has each and every mother and father prove that each and every
child is their biological child. THEN I hope the welfare fraud department
arrests these deadbeat dads that "bleed the beast". These people do
not deserve one ounce of pity. If you all feel so sorry for your polygamist
brothers and sisters then why dont you pick up the tab for their lifestyle?
Horray for Texas.
I agree! | 10:49 p.m. April 16, 2008
Regardless of what county or state is enforcing the laws on the books, whether
they do or don't does not excuse those underage minors at YFZ ranch. Sibce
its probably DEBATR with his 10 user nams writing all the lets Free Jeffs
postings, evidence or facts means nothing to someone who thinks exactly the same
as jailed warren Jeffs.
In Utah & Arizona I was the Child Abuse Prevention rep of FOR KIDS SAKE and the abuses were there. enough to get 6 convictions in arizona recently. It was a failure seeing Dan Barlow Jr. get a lousy 13 days for molesting 4 of his daughters. But that said he admitted his crimes, hard to defend someone who throws himself on the mercy of the court. Some how DEBATERS ignore the registered sex Offenders and prior convictions of this group. Johhny Jessop, Jack cooke, Clyde Mackert and a list as long as my arm, they were all convicted, they were all FLDS.
Warren moved to Texas to flee prosection as both Arizona and Utah slowly tightened down the screws.
Texas was a product of warrens flee from justice.
In Utah & Arizona I was the Child Abuse Prevention rep of FOR KIDS SAKE and the abuses were there. enough to get 6 convictions in arizona recently. It was a failure seeing Dan Barlow Jr. get a lousy 13 days for molesting 4 of his daughters. But that said he admitted his crimes, hard to defend someone who throws himself on the mercy of the court. Some how DEBATERS ignore the registered sex Offenders and prior convictions of this group. Johhny Jessop, Jack cooke, Clyde Mackert and a list as long as my arm, they were all convicted, they were all FLDS.
Warren moved to Texas to flee prosection as both Arizona and Utah slowly tightened down the screws.
Texas was a product of warrens flee from justice.
kgill | 10:52 p.m. April 16, 2008
CPS has way too much power and is unchecked. This is a totally separate issue
that goes way beyond FLDS and whether they are guilty or NOT.
They scare me. Anonymous tips that can cause my child to be taken terrifies me, when I can't hardly afford a lawyer. Notice the children get state appointed lawyers that have volunteered. When the children are questioned, there is no parental lawyer present.
It is terrifying to me. I know a lady in Atlanta - a med student - who took her child to ER. The hospital got the X-Rays mixed up with another child's. They took her child. She had to fight for years to get her child back - to get new x-rays made to exonerate her. Where is the JUSTICE in a system that can let mistakes like THAT happen?
They scare me. Anonymous tips that can cause my child to be taken terrifies me, when I can't hardly afford a lawyer. Notice the children get state appointed lawyers that have volunteered. When the children are questioned, there is no parental lawyer present.
It is terrifying to me. I know a lady in Atlanta - a med student - who took her child to ER. The hospital got the X-Rays mixed up with another child's. They took her child. She had to fight for years to get her child back - to get new x-rays made to exonerate her. Where is the JUSTICE in a system that can let mistakes like THAT happen?
Tomorrow | 11:14 p.m. April 16, 2008
Just let it unfold, there is so much not in the hands of the press. LE does not
publish what its taking to court before a custody hearing.
Its America and you have a right to your opinion, though it explains my fears of unprofessional jurys. Rooted in emotion and denying facts, many here believe the FLDS have done nothing wrong. For 8 years I have tracked the issue and worked with 5 different attorney generals compiling the names and ages of girls married within this group. I see what is on paper, gathered from Birth records and interviews as black and white.
To be an innocent man and face your jury logic based on opinions and emotions would be terifying. If I was guilty, I would request 12 just like you! But if innocdent I would opt for a professional full time jury that operates on facts and evidence.
I have 60 Video's up which Oprah Winfrey Producers were looking at today. In Warren's own explanations, infront of his Alta academy students 5th to 8th Grade, he states his beliefs, so how can a logical mind reject what he states. You'd have to call him a liar!
Its America and you have a right to your opinion, though it explains my fears of unprofessional jurys. Rooted in emotion and denying facts, many here believe the FLDS have done nothing wrong. For 8 years I have tracked the issue and worked with 5 different attorney generals compiling the names and ages of girls married within this group. I see what is on paper, gathered from Birth records and interviews as black and white.
To be an innocent man and face your jury logic based on opinions and emotions would be terifying. If I was guilty, I would request 12 just like you! But if innocdent I would opt for a professional full time jury that operates on facts and evidence.
I have 60 Video's up which Oprah Winfrey Producers were looking at today. In Warren's own explanations, infront of his Alta academy students 5th to 8th Grade, he states his beliefs, so how can a logical mind reject what he states. You'd have to call him a liar!
Let me correct myself | 11:16 p.m. April 16, 2008
In my last comment I stated, "When the probation officer vouched, as he in
fact did last week, that Mr. Barlow hasn�t been out of
Arizona in years,". My statement was factually incorrect.
I reread the report about Dale Barlows probation and in that report, it simply stated, "... the county chief probation officer confirmed... that Barlow had been on probation since Aug. 17." The report also stated that "a probation officer met regularly with Barlow"
Could Dale Barlow be responsible for the victim's current pregnancy while on probation as stated in the warrant? Possibly, but a reasonable person probably would have taken into consideration the four days travel time and Barlow's age. A reasonable person would probably have stopped to wonder why the accuser didn't mention that her "husband" lived in Arizona with his three other wives.
Oh well. The damage to the case has already been done. I just don't understand why all the people who are posting comments expressing concern for the victims are not expressing any anger over the "Keystone Cop" quality background work done on the warrant. The commenters emotionally focus on the tragedy and ignore the all important legal process.
I reread the report about Dale Barlows probation and in that report, it simply stated, "... the county chief probation officer confirmed... that Barlow had been on probation since Aug. 17." The report also stated that "a probation officer met regularly with Barlow"
Could Dale Barlow be responsible for the victim's current pregnancy while on probation as stated in the warrant? Possibly, but a reasonable person probably would have taken into consideration the four days travel time and Barlow's age. A reasonable person would probably have stopped to wonder why the accuser didn't mention that her "husband" lived in Arizona with his three other wives.
Oh well. The damage to the case has already been done. I just don't understand why all the people who are posting comments expressing concern for the victims are not expressing any anger over the "Keystone Cop" quality background work done on the warrant. The commenters emotionally focus on the tragedy and ignore the all important legal process.
no moleste | 11:21 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Don't forget, if your neighbors behave in way that you
don�t like (such as singing old pioneer hymns), wear
clothing that isn't made by Russell Simmons or Tommy Hilfiger, have never
exposed their kids to drugs, or talk in an annoying Danish or Scandinavian
accent..."
You forgot "impregnate little girls". Why can't you people get that? We're not going to allow systemic abuse of children here; no pedophile factories, thank you very much. People have the right to live in another state that doesn't mind if they must live that way.
You forgot "impregnate little girls". Why can't you people get that? We're not going to allow systemic abuse of children here; no pedophile factories, thank you very much. People have the right to live in another state that doesn't mind if they must live that way.
Leroy | 11:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
"I see no tears"!! Lets see now it starts on April 4 and you write on
April 16. Just how many tears do you think a woman can cry?? There comes a time
when the human body just will not produce another tear. Then you just keep
crying on the inside. Someday you may understand what these women are going
through. And by the way I am not Mormon of any sort. I live in Missouri and I
grew up Baptist.
Tomorrow we get to hear what the State calls evidence but suppose , just suppose these are not Under Age girls .
Fences? Actually I do believe the fences were there when they bought the property. Sure the person who bought the property lied about his purpose but then so did Walt Disney when he bought the property around Orlando, Florida. That is just
a normal business practice.
And you see that Temple in the photos? They quarried and cut the limestone on the property. They built that themselves. It is a monument to their dedication and hard work. A few buildings were already there but everythin else they built with their own hands. What have you done?
Tomorrow we get to hear what the State calls evidence but suppose , just suppose these are not Under Age girls .
Fences? Actually I do believe the fences were there when they bought the property. Sure the person who bought the property lied about his purpose but then so did Walt Disney when he bought the property around Orlando, Florida. That is just
a normal business practice.
And you see that Temple in the photos? They quarried and cut the limestone on the property. They built that themselves. It is a monument to their dedication and hard work. A few buildings were already there but everythin else they built with their own hands. What have you done?
Male Poligs posting here? | 11:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
I find it interesting that the very first few posts on these stories about the
FLDS group are always in defense, yet in reading most posts, they are saying,
this is rape and abuse. Tonight on Fox they showed an interview with some of
the robot wives, they actually reminded me of the women involved with Charles
Manson. These women were lifeless and their voices were all the same, you could
have stuck a tape recorder under them, didn't need strings, they all sat
with hands in their lap. I can't remember the Jessop gal who left the
group, but she was on the show and she talked about the men behind the scenes
running the show. These groups do not let their people watch TV, I was
surprised they had cell phones and I-Pod's but we know what was on those.
But they probably have computers, well the high up men and I am sure that some
of them are posting right out of the gate on these stories. They could at least
stagger the posts, and not do five in a row, make it look more natural, just be
honest in who you are here, if possible.
Don't You People Get It Yet? | 11:23 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Sarah" is probably scared to death of being found out by the FLDS
leaders. Like all abuse situations, the abusers control through fear of
retribution. Sarah, if that is her real name, wants out of the situation along
with the rest of the abused children without giving up her identity to her
abusers.
I saw three "Mothers" on Fox News being interviewed. They looked like programmed Stepford Wives. Scary! The look on Gretchen Carlson's (the interviewer) face was incredulous. She knew these women were also abused and afraid to say anything contrary to what was expected of them. Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? These women are programmed to believe this crap from day one.
Where are the men? They know they are in deep trouble but they parade their programmed women in front of the camera hoping for sympathy. Shame on them!
I saw three "Mothers" on Fox News being interviewed. They looked like programmed Stepford Wives. Scary! The look on Gretchen Carlson's (the interviewer) face was incredulous. She knew these women were also abused and afraid to say anything contrary to what was expected of them. Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? These women are programmed to believe this crap from day one.
Where are the men? They know they are in deep trouble but they parade their programmed women in front of the camera hoping for sympathy. Shame on them!
Thank you Texas ! | 11:30 p.m. April 16, 2008
happy 416 children
_____________
289 children 4 years old and under
100 children 5 and over
27 tennage boys
139 mothers + 100 mothers sent to Crawford, CO
82 with children 4 years old and under
57 with children 5 years old and over
100 mothers (child brides somehow shuffled to Crawford, CO before YFZ ranch, Eldorado, TX raid)
60 men at YFZ ranch, Eldorado, TX
20 men at Crawford, CO (busily stashing 100 prime child brides)
YFZ ranch, Edorado, TX had 80 paedophile men
_____________
289 children 4 years old and under
100 children 5 and over
27 tennage boys
139 mothers + 100 mothers sent to Crawford, CO
82 with children 4 years old and under
57 with children 5 years old and over
100 mothers (child brides somehow shuffled to Crawford, CO before YFZ ranch, Eldorado, TX raid)
60 men at YFZ ranch, Eldorado, TX
20 men at Crawford, CO (busily stashing 100 prime child brides)
YFZ ranch, Edorado, TX had 80 paedophile men
Anytime | 11:44 p.m. April 16, 2008
you live a lie you have to live till you die Repent REpent , abstain from raping
little children only in Utah after reading these blogs does it seem to be
accepted.
Probable cause? | 11:44 p.m. April 16, 2008
Er, so if there is probable cause and clear evidence of systemic abuse and
statutory rape, why aren't the alleged perpetrators from the compound the
ones in custody?
Doug S | 11:48 p.m. April 16, 2008
Pauline, Ann Eliza Young, John C. Bennett, Philastus Hurlbut, and a lot of other
people also wrote "very enlightening books". Should I take those at
face value, too?
KSR | 12:00 a.m. April 17, 2008
TO ALL FLDS and FLDS-supporters:
I'm sorry if this is going to sound like bad news, but the Texas police have not violated the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution. For starters, the police have 2 warrants awarded by the judge to search the place. No one, except the authorities, have access to it. The authorities don't have to reveal the details of the warrant to anyone.
Plus, police throughout the United States also use 2 very powerful rules when doing searches. Rule 1 is called Plain View rule. Basicly, when an officer sees an illegal item in plain view (even in someone's home), the officer has duty and legal right to take it. It doesn't matter if the police have a search warrant or not.
Rule 2 is known as Exigent Circumstances, an emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect or destruction of evidence. As you can see, this is used in cases such as child abuse, child rape, underage marriage, and child molestation. Police do not need to use a warrant if there are exigent circumstances.
I'm sorry if this is going to sound like bad news, but the Texas police have not violated the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution. For starters, the police have 2 warrants awarded by the judge to search the place. No one, except the authorities, have access to it. The authorities don't have to reveal the details of the warrant to anyone.
Plus, police throughout the United States also use 2 very powerful rules when doing searches. Rule 1 is called Plain View rule. Basicly, when an officer sees an illegal item in plain view (even in someone's home), the officer has duty and legal right to take it. It doesn't matter if the police have a search warrant or not.
Rule 2 is known as Exigent Circumstances, an emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect or destruction of evidence. As you can see, this is used in cases such as child abuse, child rape, underage marriage, and child molestation. Police do not need to use a warrant if there are exigent circumstances.
MIKE | 12:00 a.m. April 17, 2008
And we thought all along that the Clintons were liars! Now Texas CPS and the
local Sheriff department cannot proove that Sara exists, nor have we heard the
audio recording of the alledged 911 whispering phone call.
That's what I call real evidence.
Mike
That's what I call real evidence.
Mike
To Bobbie | 12:29 a.m. April 17, 2008
Do you even KNOW that there are 400 LDS foster families living in that county in
Texas? Foster children typically stay within the county they are taken from, and
at least stay within the state unless they go to live with family members.
Surely, you aren't suggesting they come to Utah to live with their other
FLDS relations!?
I appreciate that you hold LDS church members in such high regard that you would just place children with them carte blanche, but that's not the way the foster care system works, either. Families are chosen on an individual basis, and religion plays no part in it. The LDS church has no say whatsoever in where these children go, nor do they make such choices for individual families to become foster parents. Have you ever heard of separation of church and state?
Your prayers for the children are admirable, but don't you think you should "practice what YOU preach?" Have YOU called to become a foster parent? Isn't it so much easier to point the finger at others, than take personal responsibility yourself? You really should think through your arguments before posting.
I appreciate that you hold LDS church members in such high regard that you would just place children with them carte blanche, but that's not the way the foster care system works, either. Families are chosen on an individual basis, and religion plays no part in it. The LDS church has no say whatsoever in where these children go, nor do they make such choices for individual families to become foster parents. Have you ever heard of separation of church and state?
Your prayers for the children are admirable, but don't you think you should "practice what YOU preach?" Have YOU called to become a foster parent? Isn't it so much easier to point the finger at others, than take personal responsibility yourself? You really should think through your arguments before posting.
An Open Question to the FLDS | 12:36 a.m. April 17, 2008
To any FLDS mothers, who are taking center stage with their tears and grief, I
have a couple very simple questions:
1. Do you have any daughters who were married and having sex with their husband before being 16 years of age?
2. If your church leader told you that your daughter, who was under the age of 16, was to be married to an adult male, and that they would have offspring together, would you allow it?
Answer that question honestly please. If the answer to either question is "yes," then please be quiet and go repent. You've committed very serious, grievous sin. The government is completely justified in its actions.
If the answer is "no," then my prayers and uttmost sympathies are with you. May God give you strength and a way free from this mess.
1. Do you have any daughters who were married and having sex with their husband before being 16 years of age?
2. If your church leader told you that your daughter, who was under the age of 16, was to be married to an adult male, and that they would have offspring together, would you allow it?
Answer that question honestly please. If the answer to either question is "yes," then please be quiet and go repent. You've committed very serious, grievous sin. The government is completely justified in its actions.
If the answer is "no," then my prayers and uttmost sympathies are with you. May God give you strength and a way free from this mess.
FLDS Member | 12:58 a.m. April 17, 2008
"One last thought. The FLDS mothers claim they want their children back to love and protect. However, it is pretty well proven that all that love only lasts until the girls are old enough to conceive and the boys, who are not the chosen, get kicked out at age 16. Let the law do its' job."
Pretty well proven that our love only lasts until the girls are old enough to conceive or the boys kicked out at 16 if not "chosen"??
What a bunch of garbage! Why don't you ask my 16, 18, and 21 year old single daughters if they are still loved. Or ask my son who at the age of 18 CHOSE not to live here anymore, if he is still loved by his parents. You have no idea what goes on in our homes. Just because it is on the news, or in a book written by a bitter women doesn't make it the truth.
Where I stand | 12:59 a.m. April 17, 2008
Personally, I am glad that law enforcement officials are cracking down on the
FLDS. Mark Shurtleff has done well in this respect; in fact, the FLDS
wouldn't be in Texas if Shurtleff had not been aggressively pushing to
punish them for their crimes.
However, the Texas authorities are setting a dangerous precedent. I'm not a lawyer; I'm a Constitutionalist. The FLDS, no matter how reprehensible they may be, deserve a fair trial. They deserve an attorney (and who cares if their attorney is LDS or not? The Elder Snow post was irrelevant, myopic and saturated with the author's own useless distaste for the LDS); they deserve due process; they deserve to see their accuser, this mysterious Sarah, who may or may not have existed, in court. They deserve their Consitutional rights. If they don't get those rights, then why should we?
Look, I don't like the FLDS. What they do is wrong, but letting the government commit 20 crimes to correct one wrong will do far more harm to more people over a longer period of time than the FLDS church ever could possibly do. I hope we get the FLDS, but in the right way.
However, the Texas authorities are setting a dangerous precedent. I'm not a lawyer; I'm a Constitutionalist. The FLDS, no matter how reprehensible they may be, deserve a fair trial. They deserve an attorney (and who cares if their attorney is LDS or not? The Elder Snow post was irrelevant, myopic and saturated with the author's own useless distaste for the LDS); they deserve due process; they deserve to see their accuser, this mysterious Sarah, who may or may not have existed, in court. They deserve their Consitutional rights. If they don't get those rights, then why should we?
Look, I don't like the FLDS. What they do is wrong, but letting the government commit 20 crimes to correct one wrong will do far more harm to more people over a longer period of time than the FLDS church ever could possibly do. I hope we get the FLDS, but in the right way.
Mormons are embarassed | 2:12 a.m. April 17, 2008
Because their old dirty laundry is being brought forth in full review with the
FLDS Texas raid.
Yeah, yeah, we all know that the FLDS are not the same as the LDS. But, they split off from the LDS and have the same basis of Mormon faith.
If, we bash the FLDS we are also bashing the origins of Mormonism. And as Dallin Oaks once said, paraphrasing, "if Joseph Smith is a fraud then the LDS Church is all a fraud."
The FLDS are practicing Joseph Smith inspired Mormonism. Now you can understand why many LDS members are supportive of the FLDS despite the sex abuse and have sympathy for them.
Yeah, yeah, we all know that the FLDS are not the same as the LDS. But, they split off from the LDS and have the same basis of Mormon faith.
If, we bash the FLDS we are also bashing the origins of Mormonism. And as Dallin Oaks once said, paraphrasing, "if Joseph Smith is a fraud then the LDS Church is all a fraud."
The FLDS are practicing Joseph Smith inspired Mormonism. Now you can understand why many LDS members are supportive of the FLDS despite the sex abuse and have sympathy for them.
Watching from the sidelines | 3:25 a.m. April 17, 2008
I'm waiting for more information to come out before passing judgement on
the Texas authorities. They claim they took the kids because of what they saw on
the YFZ Ranch. The timing of the removals supports this. They haven't let
on all they saw. A lot more information should come out at the hearings today.
I'm looking forward to hearing their evidence.
There's some reason to suspect that there's different man with the same name as both names are common names amoung those in the FLDS. The state authorities may have made a mistaken identification as far as the AZ Dale Barlow is concerned. That doesn't mean the call was fake, just that the authorities made a mistake. They're human like the rest of us.
They're going to have egg on their face if the call was fake. They might get the kids based on what they saw at the ranch, but it would be a PR nightmare. I wonder if we'll ever learn whose cell phone it was and what the phone company knows about where the call originated from.
There's some reason to suspect that there's different man with the same name as both names are common names amoung those in the FLDS. The state authorities may have made a mistaken identification as far as the AZ Dale Barlow is concerned. That doesn't mean the call was fake, just that the authorities made a mistake. They're human like the rest of us.
They're going to have egg on their face if the call was fake. They might get the kids based on what they saw at the ranch, but it would be a PR nightmare. I wonder if we'll ever learn whose cell phone it was and what the phone company knows about where the call originated from.
Melinda | 5:10 a.m. April 17, 2008
R. Spencer Robinson, like many attorneys, you express yourself with a degree of
arrogance that you as a lawyer know best. The man accused of raping this
anonymous teen at the ranch has reported faithfully in person to his probation
officer including during the time he was allegedly in TX abusing the anonymous
girl. As others have rightfully said, 5 minutes of corroborration would have
helped TX authorities realize the complaint was a fraud. The sheriff and CPS
had pre-prepared raid plans for the ranch, transported the children away from
their families via buses supplied eagerly by local Baptist churches, and most
importantly, the sheriff himself admitted that his ex-FLDS informant had never
indicated there was any widespread abuse or sex with minors going on at that
ranch, and she had LIVED there for years. So you tell us, legal genius, on what
basis this raid took place and why 5 minutes of corroborration wouldn't
have avoided this whole fiasco? TX wanted to raid this ranch and disband this
religion and found a pretext for doing it. Read commentor Gringo's
excellent analogy above and ask yourself why this couldn't happen to you.
break one, you've broken all | 5:09 a.m. April 17, 2008
"Sure the person who bought the property lied about his purpose but then so
did Walt Disney when he bought the property around Orlando, Florida. That is
just
a normal business practice."
Normal business practice? Um, we call that 'lying' down here. Unethical business practice.
a normal business practice."
Normal business practice? Um, we call that 'lying' down here. Unethical business practice.
Anonymous | 5:37 a.m. April 17, 2008
The interview on Larry King was very interesting. I have a question. Where are
all of the men? Why aren't they in front of the tv cameras? Could it be
that they really don't care about their children? Or is it because they
all left when told by the authorities that they could leave the compound but
would not be allowed back in while the investigation was going on? Maybe they
all left in mass to go hide in Mexico. If we should be so lucky. Another
question. Why are there no Hispanics, Blacks or other races shown on TV? Seems
like racism is another concern here.I think it is because they are a little
smarter than us white folks.
snickerdoodle | 5:54 a.m. April 17, 2008
guys, calm down.
They went into the compound to find *Sarah*, but were unable to locate her. While in the compound, they physically found abuse, with nothing to do with the call.
The REMOVALS . . .
were based on actual evidence found in the compound. They were not based on the call.
They went into the compound to find *Sarah*, but were unable to locate her. While in the compound, they physically found abuse, with nothing to do with the call.
The REMOVALS . . .
were based on actual evidence found in the compound. They were not based on the call.
JND | 6:38 a.m. April 17, 2008
OF COURSE they have her in custody. They just aren't going to say so until
they are ready, and then all of you talking trash will look like the conclusion
jumpers that you are.
Don't mess with Texas | 7:36 a.m. April 17, 2008
To all the polygamists out there,
Stay in Utah!
You are safer there than anywhere else in this country!
Texas has had its dander up since the land was bought for the ranch.
The guys who bought it lied about the reason for the purchase. They said it was to be a hunting lodge.
Don't lie to Texas.
Stay in Utah!
You are safer there than anywhere else in this country!
Texas has had its dander up since the land was bought for the ranch.
The guys who bought it lied about the reason for the purchase. They said it was to be a hunting lodge.
Don't lie to Texas.
RE:Roy Jones 7:42 pm | 7:53 a.m. April 17, 2008
Absolutely right Roy. Actually my Religion Opens The Doors Wide and Invites
Everyone in. That is supposed to be the purpose of church.
Donna | 7:56 a.m. April 17, 2008
So the whole raid took place under false pretense, but that's
okay--because, as some of you write, "IT'S ABOUT THEIR MOLESTING
CHILDREN."
Do you have evidence of this, or is this just rumour and opinion?
Funny how these same people believe we are all innocent until proven guilty and are entitled to many rights--except for the polygamists.
And you call yourselves Christians? Right.
Do you have evidence of this, or is this just rumour and opinion?
Funny how these same people believe we are all innocent until proven guilty and are entitled to many rights--except for the polygamists.
And you call yourselves Christians? Right.
Uwe | 8:12 a.m. April 17, 2008
This is just amazing. Is every polygamist on the internet right now trying to
move the readers opinion to their advantage? If you live in a society where your
neighbors children are abused by being married away as teenagers and you
don't do anything about it or at least take you own children out of this
surrounding than you are not fit parents! Forget the 16 year old caller and the
court orders, save the children!!!!!!!!!
Walk the walk... | 8:34 a.m. April 17, 2008
If we really believe in the first 10 amendments we would all be protesting what
has happened at the cultist compound, notwithstanding the potential criminal
behaviour. In the end we will learn some of the facts, other facts will be
obscured to our view. In the end the mothers will get the children, lawsuits
alleging civil rights violations will be litigated and Texas will have egg on
their face and the effectiveness of future law enforcement action against
pedophiles will be hindered by this massive over-reach of search and siezure.
Even if we don't like certain behavior, even if innocent individuals are
being harmed, the greater good comes from upholding our individual liberties. I
know that is a hard statement to swallow. I don't like what I see at this
place, but I believe what I just said.
Re: Probable cause? | 8:46 a.m. April 17, 2008
"why aren't the alleged perpetrators from the compound the ones in
custody?"
Probably because the state is still building a case, identifying the victims and the abusers, and gathering evidence, like interviews with the victims. It could be months or even years before the state gathers enough evidence to bring charges against the abusers. That doesn't mean the abusers are innocent, it just means that it takes time to build a case against each one of them.
It's really pretty incredible that some people are always so concerned about the rights of the perpetrators, but seem to care so little about the rights of the victims.
If you found out your neighbors were sexually abusing their daughters, would you want the authorities to leave the daughters in the home while they carefully gathered evidence to build a case against the parents? Or would you expect the state to immediately remove the daughters from their home until the state was assured that it was safe for the daughters to return home?
Stop the abuse NOW!
Then, build a case to put the abusers away.
Probably because the state is still building a case, identifying the victims and the abusers, and gathering evidence, like interviews with the victims. It could be months or even years before the state gathers enough evidence to bring charges against the abusers. That doesn't mean the abusers are innocent, it just means that it takes time to build a case against each one of them.
It's really pretty incredible that some people are always so concerned about the rights of the perpetrators, but seem to care so little about the rights of the victims.
If you found out your neighbors were sexually abusing their daughters, would you want the authorities to leave the daughters in the home while they carefully gathered evidence to build a case against the parents? Or would you expect the state to immediately remove the daughters from their home until the state was assured that it was safe for the daughters to return home?
Stop the abuse NOW!
Then, build a case to put the abusers away.
R. Spencer Robinson | 8:51 a.m. April 17, 2008
Melinda, I�ve spent most of my 26 years as a lawyer in some
part of the criminal justice system, 15 of them in Corrections.
Let�s examine some of your assertions.
Barlow reporting to his PO doesn�t mean he was never in Texas. The media says the PO stated Barlow reported, not that the PO said Barlow was never in Texas.
You state the sheriff and CPS had pre-prepared plans to raid the ranch, but don�t state how you know that.
You state the sheriff admitted his informant never told him of widespread abuse or sex with minors, but don�t say the informant had personal knowledge of the time period described by Sarah.
I don�t know what was in the warrant and affidavit supporting it, so I don�t know the basis for the search. Without that, unlike many of the posters here, I will not presume to know that five minutes of corroboration would have avoided �the whole fiasco.� Whether the warrant was based on fraud will be tested in the courts.
You say I�m arrogant. To me arrogance is presuming to know something, and calling someone else arrogant for suggesting you don�t know what you think you know.
Barlow reporting to his PO doesn�t mean he was never in Texas. The media says the PO stated Barlow reported, not that the PO said Barlow was never in Texas.
You state the sheriff and CPS had pre-prepared plans to raid the ranch, but don�t state how you know that.
You state the sheriff admitted his informant never told him of widespread abuse or sex with minors, but don�t say the informant had personal knowledge of the time period described by Sarah.
I don�t know what was in the warrant and affidavit supporting it, so I don�t know the basis for the search. Without that, unlike many of the posters here, I will not presume to know that five minutes of corroboration would have avoided �the whole fiasco.� Whether the warrant was based on fraud will be tested in the courts.
You say I�m arrogant. To me arrogance is presuming to know something, and calling someone else arrogant for suggesting you don�t know what you think you know.
show me the money | 9:07 a.m. April 17, 2008
What the public must remember is that in Juvenile Court children have no rights,
consequently the parents have no rights in this forum. There is no such thing as
due process. This is step two of the process in order to keep the psych's
employed. First was get in the door, then isolate the children for
interrogation which will be embellished by the case workers. Don't forget
that Texas used to allow 14 yr olds and last year was given money to hire over
300 new caseworkers
Hagar | 9:02 a.m. April 17, 2008
Here is a simple math question that I still have not yet seen answered by all
the pro-FLDS posters. Boys are born at the rate of 49%, while girls are born at
the rate of 51% for every total 100 births on average. So, for every 49th boy
he is able to have 1 extra wife. So, what happens with all the excess boys that
are competing for the lone extra female? It seems that most of the FLDS have
multiple wives, which is statisically impossible without removing competition.
So do these mothers rant to the media when their sons are kicked out with only
the shirts on their backs and no money in their pockets and extremely limited
educations? Nope, they seem only to wait until they are caught committing
crimes for the waterworks to pour out.
The Age Question | 9:17 a.m. April 17, 2008
To the poster who wondered if reporters asked about the age of these pregnant
girls...It was asked by CNN. The FLDS women dodged the question pretty much.
They wouldn't say how old they were and when they got married.
To Donna | 9:51 a.m. April 17, 2008
Nope, none of us posting here have any evidence, but I do not doubt for a moment
that the authorities do have evidence. We base our comments on what information
has been given, which is very broad right now, but the facts or evidence will
come out, probably starting today.
Anonymous | 9:52 a.m. April 17, 2008
The FLDS have lived in their own isolated country within the United States, not
to be governed by any of the laws of the U.S. but by their own laws. I
don't condemn them for their religion or any other peculiarity about them,
but can we allow groups of people to establish their own laws contrary to the
laws of our country without suffering consequences?
When the Jeffs lived at the base of Little Cottonwood Canyon, we lived behind them. We were well-acquainted with some members of their group. Mention has been made of the boys who were molested--one committing suicide because of the abuse. We knew those boys. Their house was very modest; there were 14 children living in the house with the father and 3 wives (one age 16).
The difference between teenage pregnancy within the general population and teenage pregnancy within the FLDS is that the girls in the latter group seem to have no choice. I don't really have a huge problem with arranged marriages but have never understood why the girls need to be married off at such a young age. It's also wrong to kick men out and give their wives to another.
When the Jeffs lived at the base of Little Cottonwood Canyon, we lived behind them. We were well-acquainted with some members of their group. Mention has been made of the boys who were molested--one committing suicide because of the abuse. We knew those boys. Their house was very modest; there were 14 children living in the house with the father and 3 wives (one age 16).
The difference between teenage pregnancy within the general population and teenage pregnancy within the FLDS is that the girls in the latter group seem to have no choice. I don't really have a huge problem with arranged marriages but have never understood why the girls need to be married off at such a young age. It's also wrong to kick men out and give their wives to another.
No support From LDS | 10:08 a.m. April 17, 2008
leaders on behalf of these children. It appears the church leadership is hiding
under their desks rather than condemning the manner in which the state of Texas
had treated them.
They have no trouble manipulating the Legislature to have "Compassion" on illegal aliens but where are they on this?
They have no trouble manipulating the Legislature to have "Compassion" on illegal aliens but where are they on this?
The Texan | 10:12 a.m. April 17, 2008
How many people are going to weigh in with wild speculation about this or that
or nothing at all.
Read the court papers, they found what they went searching for. Widespread abuse. This is an abuse investigation.
Watch the FLDS people being interviewed, why do they constantly change the subject, never answer the question? Perhaps they're trying to hide something? Perhaps.
Read the court papers, they found what they went searching for. Widespread abuse. This is an abuse investigation.
Watch the FLDS people being interviewed, why do they constantly change the subject, never answer the question? Perhaps they're trying to hide something? Perhaps.
South American | 10:23 a.m. April 17, 2008
I'm horrified by the actions of Texas. I'm a catholic from south
america and just found out about the FDLS is doing but I think that nobody has
the right to remove their children away from their mothers without a real and
justifiable reason. Why don't they treat the mothers and their children
like refugees? Why don't they send social workers to work with the mothers
in the compound? Mainstream americans think they know it all and they have the
right to impose that in everyone of their citizens and in every country of the
world. The same way the FDLS see the outside world as evil mainstream america
fears everything they don't know. I dont agree with child molestation of
poligamy but there are less traumatizing ways to do things. You can't
change the culture of these children and their families in a day. And not
everyone loves the mainstream culture in the US. So stop imposing that. Those
kids are not going to be happy, you just took away everything they had in life.
Dont be surprised if they are the protagonists of school shooting in a few
years. STOP JUDGING. YOU ARE NOT SAVING THE WORLD
Catherine | 10:39 a.m. April 17, 2008
I hope the FLDS church is put out of business once and for all! They are not a
religion. AND, what is with the Star Trek hairdos on the polygamist concubine
slaves? Everyone is wondering about their not so fundamentalist look. None of my
Mormon ancestors wore their hair like that. It doesn't look too
fundamentalist just odd, strange and spooky. All too strange for words.
its_Chet | 10:42 a.m. April 17, 2008
Just read the post from 6:38AM and I think this brings up an important point,
though it works quite well for my point of view as well as that one:
Conclusion jumping
When the authorities went there on their first warrant, it was to find the elusive Sarah. I would hope their priority was to remove her abuser, if he could be found. I�d like to see the law target the lawbreakers, not the innocent.
Apparently they went back and got a second warrant to investigate signs of abuse they found once they got there, and it was under this umbrella that they removed by military fiat all 416 children on the compound.
Any reasonable person should find that leap quite troubling. But we�re assured by CPS apologists that the second warrant, based on what was found there, justified taking all of the children from their screaming, crying mothers (so did they commit statutory rape also?).
What was in the second warrant? I would have to jump to the conclusion that CPS is not out of line for taking the children of EVERY father. �Well, they must have all been abusers.�
Applying blanket statements to strangers is jumping to conclusions.
Conclusion jumping
When the authorities went there on their first warrant, it was to find the elusive Sarah. I would hope their priority was to remove her abuser, if he could be found. I�d like to see the law target the lawbreakers, not the innocent.
Apparently they went back and got a second warrant to investigate signs of abuse they found once they got there, and it was under this umbrella that they removed by military fiat all 416 children on the compound.
Any reasonable person should find that leap quite troubling. But we�re assured by CPS apologists that the second warrant, based on what was found there, justified taking all of the children from their screaming, crying mothers (so did they commit statutory rape also?).
What was in the second warrant? I would have to jump to the conclusion that CPS is not out of line for taking the children of EVERY father. �Well, they must have all been abusers.�
Applying blanket statements to strangers is jumping to conclusions.
To Hagar | 11:28 a.m. April 17, 2008
You seem to be one of the few sane people on here lately. I too have not
noticed these mothers expressing any concerns for these "lost boys".
As much information as there is that is accessible for all of us online, I don't see how that issue can be swept under the rug like it has been. I'm beginning to think that the boys serve little purpose to these people other than being cheap labor. And when they become competition to the men regarding these young girls, then they are booted out. I have a son and a daughter and I find it hard to believe that a mother could choose one over the other. But then maybe providing a daughter to become a so-called "spiritual" wife to an older man may be their way of staying in the good graces of these older men. Pretty sick if you ask me.
As much information as there is that is accessible for all of us online, I don't see how that issue can be swept under the rug like it has been. I'm beginning to think that the boys serve little purpose to these people other than being cheap labor. And when they become competition to the men regarding these young girls, then they are booted out. I have a son and a daughter and I find it hard to believe that a mother could choose one over the other. But then maybe providing a daughter to become a so-called "spiritual" wife to an older man may be their way of staying in the good graces of these older men. Pretty sick if you ask me.
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