Reader comments
Mysterious Sarah may be unnecessary in Texas bid to keep FLDS children
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Doug S | 5:06 p.m. April 16, 2008
Has Texas never heard of the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine
where search warrants are concerned?
Some of us were warning about this from the get-go. No "Sarah", no valid warrant. No valid warrant, and you can send the kids and moms home and give back EVERYTHING you found in that search--their scrapbooks, their cell phones, their bed sheets, and whatever else you took--even if you DID find anything incriminating.
No need to "mess" with Texas--Texas messes things up pretty well on its own.
Some of us were warning about this from the get-go. No "Sarah", no valid warrant. No valid warrant, and you can send the kids and moms home and give back EVERYTHING you found in that search--their scrapbooks, their cell phones, their bed sheets, and whatever else you took--even if you DID find anything incriminating.
No need to "mess" with Texas--Texas messes things up pretty well on its own.
Like a good neighbor... | 5:27 p.m. April 16, 2008
Well there you have it. If you don't like your neighbors in Texas, make a
bogus prank call to the police. Then, when the police and CPS come to their
private property in an armored tracked vehicle, they can haul your
neighbor's children away as if they are stray dogs with rabies.
Don't forget, if your neighbors behave in way that you don�t like (such as singing old pioneer hymns), wear clothing that isn't made by Russell Simmons or Tommy Hilfiger, have never exposed their kids to drugs, or talk in an annoying Danish or Scandinavian accent, Texas authorities can now remove the children of such illicit fanatical zealots based upon "what (they) saw out there".
Don't forget, if your neighbors behave in way that you don�t like (such as singing old pioneer hymns), wear clothing that isn't made by Russell Simmons or Tommy Hilfiger, have never exposed their kids to drugs, or talk in an annoying Danish or Scandinavian accent, Texas authorities can now remove the children of such illicit fanatical zealots based upon "what (they) saw out there".
Comments continue below
Not Stupid | 5:42 p.m. April 16, 2008
Yesterday I looked into the face of human grief, the photo widely printed of an
FLDS mother enduring both her own pain of separation and the knowledge of the
pain her young one's felt. It was a photo that spoke eloquently to why it
is so very important that loving families remain together.
As to the children, I believe there is reason to doubt both the rosy picture CPS has attempted to paint of their 'adjustment', as well as the State's ability to realistically ensure their well being. The condition of foster care is widely recognized as too often 'troubled and troubling'.
Given the decades long history between FLDS and 'the authorities' (ie, Short Creek), it is particularly unfortunate - for ALL concerned - that such tragedy is again repeating, past lessons having been lost in what appears to be a 'rush to justice'.
It seems that as with Iraq's alleged - but unfound -weapons of mass destruction, a war of sorts here has begun. I fear that all of those involved have begun a waking nightmare both lengthy and horrific, and as with any war, it is too often 'the enemy's' women and children which suffer most.
As to the children, I believe there is reason to doubt both the rosy picture CPS has attempted to paint of their 'adjustment', as well as the State's ability to realistically ensure their well being. The condition of foster care is widely recognized as too often 'troubled and troubling'.
Given the decades long history between FLDS and 'the authorities' (ie, Short Creek), it is particularly unfortunate - for ALL concerned - that such tragedy is again repeating, past lessons having been lost in what appears to be a 'rush to justice'.
It seems that as with Iraq's alleged - but unfound -weapons of mass destruction, a war of sorts here has begun. I fear that all of those involved have begun a waking nightmare both lengthy and horrific, and as with any war, it is too often 'the enemy's' women and children which suffer most.
Brooke | 5:58 p.m. April 16, 2008
Texas can kidnap children at gunpoint from the arms of their mothers and there
is nobody in Texas able to stand up to Texans. The children were never in
danger. Texans should be ashamed of their officials.
Denise | 6:06 p.m. April 16, 2008
I am so tired of people's comments that decry the removal of this children
for whatever reasons they have.
For once, think of the children who REALLY ARE being abused and neglected, not just raised in a different religion, not just living a different lifestyle. Those who came from inside know, those making comments DON'T.
For once, think of the children who REALLY ARE being abused and neglected, not just raised in a different religion, not just living a different lifestyle. Those who came from inside know, those making comments DON'T.
Good grief! | 6:05 p.m. April 16, 2008
Hasn't everyone figured it out yet? The children taken by Texas CPS
don't necessarily belong to the mothers in those photos. If you've
seen the videos you've heard them say, "These are sweet, innocent
children." not "MY children are sweet and innocent." Watch the
videos again.
Until CPS figures out (birth certificates, DNA, etc.) which children belong to which mothers, how can they "return" them?
Until CPS figures out (birth certificates, DNA, etc.) which children belong to which mothers, how can they "return" them?
Reality | 6:03 p.m. April 16, 2008
Huh - so in your opinion, Brooke, finding pregnant 13 and 14 year olds at the
ranch was NOT abuse? For shame.
Thanks! | 6:11 p.m. April 16, 2008
Thanks, Good grief and Denise, for pointing out the obvious. These children
were in a situation where other children were observed to having been abused, so
they were removed to be protected.
Crazy | 6:16 p.m. April 16, 2008
To have sex with a child right out of the arms of their brainwashed mother...is
morally wrong as well as illegal!
Texas is the only state with enough guts to stand up to child molestation and abuse! It's about time!
Texas is the only state with enough guts to stand up to child molestation and abuse! It's about time!
common sense | 6:21 p.m. April 16, 2008
Abuse in one family does not mean abuse in every single family occured. If your
neighbor abuses her kids and someone calls it in that it is happening all over
your entire neighborhood, would it be correct and fair to have your kid and
every other neighborhood kid removed and put in foster care unless you could
prove otherwise that you treated your kids good? This is the problem here, no
due process. Its fine when it happens to people you don't agree with, but
then you will also lose your freedoms when they come for you! We need to protect
the rights of all US citizens while this is still a free country!
R. Spencer Robinson | 6:27 p.m. April 16, 2008
The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine may not apply here.
It's not as simple as Doug S stated, "No 'Sarah', no valid
warrant."
The question is not producing Sarah, it's whether the specific facts and circumstances upon which the warrant was based would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime had been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed. Even an anonymous tip, if independently corroborated, can serve as the basis for a warrant.
If all of the information established probable cause, the warrant was valid. If the warrant was valid, anything observed in the process of searching within the scope of the warrant is not fruit of the poisonous tree. It's admissible.
If all of the information offered in support of the warrant does not establish probable cause, any evidence obtained as a result of executing the warrant is inadmissible. Producing Sarah is not determinative.
The question is not producing Sarah, it's whether the specific facts and circumstances upon which the warrant was based would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime had been committed, was being committed, or was about to be committed. Even an anonymous tip, if independently corroborated, can serve as the basis for a warrant.
If all of the information established probable cause, the warrant was valid. If the warrant was valid, anything observed in the process of searching within the scope of the warrant is not fruit of the poisonous tree. It's admissible.
If all of the information offered in support of the warrant does not establish probable cause, any evidence obtained as a result of executing the warrant is inadmissible. Producing Sarah is not determinative.
what? | 6:27 p.m. April 16, 2008
What is happening to our country's morals? There are HUNDREDS of CHILDREN
being abused and molested and assaulted - leading terrible lives - and you all
talk about "loving" families and frauds. Wake-up! Reallity is calling!
These children-mothers need help. End of story. Be put in their situation for
one day and then talk of the "love" these "spouses" share.
Then you can talk of returning - if you still want to.
Solution! | 6:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
I do not disagree with Texas' efforts to protect the weak and the innocent
- sweet innocent children - however, I believe there could have been a better
way of carrying it out...
They should've just taken all the men.
They should've just taken all the men.
bill johnson | 6:26 p.m. April 16, 2008
pay heed to whats going on down there. like common sense says: you cant lump em
all into one bunch. thats dangerous to the freedoms of all americans.
joe idiot | 6:30 p.m. April 16, 2008
i agree with every thing the des news agrees with
Walt | 6:39 p.m. April 16, 2008
If life on the YFZ ranch was the endless cycle of torture and sexual abuse that
we are being told it was, then why weren't any of the FLDS women who spoke
to the media yesterday happy that they and their children had finally been
rescued from such an awful existance?
The 16 year-old accuser is nowhere to be found, and the man she accused hadn't even set foot in Texas since the 1970s. Now we're being told that none of that matters, eventhough it was the whole justification for the raid.
To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing isn't a put-up job. I know some ex-FLDS members have said the FLDS Church is doing some pretty awful things, but then again look at what ex-LDS members say about the LDS Church and see how credible their claims are.
The 16 year-old accuser is nowhere to be found, and the man she accused hadn't even set foot in Texas since the 1970s. Now we're being told that none of that matters, eventhough it was the whole justification for the raid.
To be honest, I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing isn't a put-up job. I know some ex-FLDS members have said the FLDS Church is doing some pretty awful things, but then again look at what ex-LDS members say about the LDS Church and see how credible their claims are.
Anonymous | 6:50 p.m. April 16, 2008
Children can only be taken on an emergency basis if they are in immediate
danger. The young previously pregnant girls aren't exactly in immediate
danger, at best only the ~11-15 y.o. virgins may be. Unless the authorities
establish that they saw saw signs of recent abuse (pregnancy isn't abuse by
itself), if they feel they need to remove others they should hold a regular
hearing first. Texas CPS and family courts seem to have issues with due process
of law. Further the law requires they make reunification the first priority.
This is an attempt to do good by improper means. The end doesn't justify
the means.
SueM | 6:52 p.m. April 16, 2008
I guess none of you really looked at the tapes
and listen to the woman, All they say is they want there children.. When asked about abuse or anything else they change the subject or dont answer
The State will get to keep the kids
For one fact that most of the children dont even know who there mothers are.
And do you notice that NO men are speaking out
Where is Merrel Jessop.. Last I saw in Pictures he had like 8 wives and that was before Caroline got away.. so should be guess that maybe he has like 25 or more kids ... I had read somewhere when crap was going on with Warren Jeffs that he had 11 wives and like 62 kids If that is True there is someting wrong with this picture
and listen to the woman, All they say is they want there children.. When asked about abuse or anything else they change the subject or dont answer
The State will get to keep the kids
For one fact that most of the children dont even know who there mothers are.
And do you notice that NO men are speaking out
Where is Merrel Jessop.. Last I saw in Pictures he had like 8 wives and that was before Caroline got away.. so should be guess that maybe he has like 25 or more kids ... I had read somewhere when crap was going on with Warren Jeffs that he had 11 wives and like 62 kids If that is True there is someting wrong with this picture
avengeance | 6:54 p.m. April 16, 2008
If such a miscarriage of justice happened in my community, there would be blood
shed. Texas should punish the criminals (the men who had sex with underage
girls), not the mothers and their children. My wife and children know how to
operate our firearms. Don't mess with Texas? Maybe it should be
Don't Mess With the Texas Overlords.
Doug S | 7:16 p.m. April 16, 2008
Mr. Robinson, I see your point. But in this case, five minutes of
"independent corroboration" would have told the Texas authorities that
Jessop was not in Texas at the time of the raid, was not in Texas at the time
"Sarah" was allegedly beaten by him, and has not been in Texas for
years.
The warrant comes off as a transparent sham. Texas authorities evidently went out there because they had already made up their minds to do it a long time ago. "Sarah" - if she exists at all - likely had very little to do with the decision.
The warrant comes off as a transparent sham. Texas authorities evidently went out there because they had already made up their minds to do it a long time ago. "Sarah" - if she exists at all - likely had very little to do with the decision.
Doug S | 7:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
By the way, check out CNN's website for the latest antics of Texas
authorities on ego trips. Looks like a school outside of Austin suspended a
student because he had the audacity to take a cell phone call from his father
(who is on the front lines of Iraq) during class.
common sense? | 7:20 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Abuse in one family does not mean abuse in every single family occured. If
your neighbor abuses her kids and someone calls it in that it is happening all
over your entire neighborhood"
Ok so how bout it common sense? .. ever heard of the FLDS? Ever heard of uncle Warren? Ever heard of the well documented and factual practice of arranged marriage between little girls just entering puberty and old men in that community? .. not some unfortunate teen having sex at random but the institutionalization of child rape in the guise of celestial marriage? Try googling an audio clip of "uncle Warren" explaining this in FLDS terms. Of course you won't. you've got common sense ... saddened at the horror of you people and what you've done in the name of Religion.
Ok so how bout it common sense? .. ever heard of the FLDS? Ever heard of uncle Warren? Ever heard of the well documented and factual practice of arranged marriage between little girls just entering puberty and old men in that community? .. not some unfortunate teen having sex at random but the institutionalization of child rape in the guise of celestial marriage? Try googling an audio clip of "uncle Warren" explaining this in FLDS terms. Of course you won't. you've got common sense ... saddened at the horror of you people and what you've done in the name of Religion.
Leroy | 7:30 p.m. April 16, 2008
Fine!! take all the Children that appear to be underaged and pregnant. Determine
if they really are underage because at least 20 to 30 of them claim to be over
18. If they are underage then the laws of Texas have been broken. If they are
indeed 18 and over then Texas has a lot of explaining to do.
Rape is not allowed for anyone!
But lets get to the truth people.
At the ranch , why did they not just remove the men and bring in as many social welfare workers as needed to sort this thing out. Instead they use Gestapo tactics like it is a military operation.
Rape is not allowed for anyone!
But lets get to the truth people.
At the ranch , why did they not just remove the men and bring in as many social welfare workers as needed to sort this thing out. Instead they use Gestapo tactics like it is a military operation.
Gringo | 7:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
OK, why should we believe Sarah's alleged rapist [Barton] when he says he
hasn't been to Texas in 30 years? From what I understand, those people
traveled back and forth from Utah to Texas all the time, so who's to say
he's to be believed?
CPS has done the right thing, rescuing those precious children from those nasty, perverted pedophiles. I wish the moms would leave that evil religion and those disgusting rapists, learn to function in society, and maybe they could get their children back.
CPS has done the right thing, rescuing those precious children from those nasty, perverted pedophiles. I wish the moms would leave that evil religion and those disgusting rapists, learn to function in society, and maybe they could get their children back.
We Are Not All Knowing | 7:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
I am glad that I am not personally responsible to figure out this whole mess. I
can only come to conclusions based on what I have seen and heard.
The reality is that, as with war, we just do not have ALL the facts. We cannot make an appropriate conclusion WITH OUT ALL the facts.
I have felt the grief I saw on the mothers faces as I watched the video of them longing for their children. I cannot bare the thought of someone coming in to my home and taking MY 3 small children away from me based on my religion.
On the other hand, the FLDS knew they were breaking the law in practicing polygamy. Also there have been multiple reports of abuse/sexual abuse by people who have lived in the compound & were members of their faith.
I think we need to trust the people that have seen first hand what these children (and women) are going through. I know that CPS really does have the best interest of the children (and family) in mind.
Take a deep breath, relax, trust God.
The reality is that, as with war, we just do not have ALL the facts. We cannot make an appropriate conclusion WITH OUT ALL the facts.
I have felt the grief I saw on the mothers faces as I watched the video of them longing for their children. I cannot bare the thought of someone coming in to my home and taking MY 3 small children away from me based on my religion.
On the other hand, the FLDS knew they were breaking the law in practicing polygamy. Also there have been multiple reports of abuse/sexual abuse by people who have lived in the compound & were members of their faith.
I think we need to trust the people that have seen first hand what these children (and women) are going through. I know that CPS really does have the best interest of the children (and family) in mind.
Take a deep breath, relax, trust God.
Roy Jones | 7:42 p.m. April 16, 2008
Notice, 'NOBODY' has mentioned anything about religion,what they
believe in, how they practice their faith, e.t.c. I was aware this was a
religious compound. A place to practice your brand of religion. My church has no
gates or walls, or anything to keep the public out,'WE DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING
TO HIDE'
So.... Roy Jones | 8:09 p.m. April 16, 2008
You have no problem with law enforcement observing your temple rites to make
sure you are not breaking any laws?
Stephanie | 8:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Until CPS figures out (birth certificates, DNA, etc.) which children
belong to which mothers, how can they "return" them? "
DUH--They can "return" them as easily as they STOLE them.
DUH--They can "return" them as easily as they STOLE them.
Observer | 8:50 p.m. April 16, 2008
Child abuse, molestation and rape go on in every society. The difference here
is that the YFZ ranch is a closed society. Not only is it a closed society, it
is fenced and gated. There is no chance for a victim to seek help. It's
not as though the authorities walked through Cottonwood Heights and just started
grabbing people. They carried out warrants that, by law, were issued on
probable cause.
It is now a case for the courts. It is not just a Texas deal. Regarding Constitutional issues, it will ultimately be an issue for Federal Courts.
One last thought. The FLDS mothers claim they want their children back to love and protect. However, it is pretty well proven that all that love only lasts until the girls are old enough to conceive and the boys, who are not the chosen, get kicked out at age 16. Let the law do its' job.
It is now a case for the courts. It is not just a Texas deal. Regarding Constitutional issues, it will ultimately be an issue for Federal Courts.
One last thought. The FLDS mothers claim they want their children back to love and protect. However, it is pretty well proven that all that love only lasts until the girls are old enough to conceive and the boys, who are not the chosen, get kicked out at age 16. Let the law do its' job.
Not Stupid | 8:45 p.m. April 16, 2008
I am neither a Mormon nor a polygamist, and the way of the FLDS is not my own,
nor would I care for it to be. My knowledge of the ongoing events is only that
which comes through what I've read, but what I have read indicates
repeated, and failed, assaults upon this group because of what they perceive as
their religious practices.
I have no doubts that they, as any religious group, have a number of ex-members with particularly strong and decidedly unpleasant memories, as do I imagine many ex-catholics today. However, where crimes have been committed individuals have been prosecuted. There has not been collective punishment (and a denial of basic due process as a result), but rather a carefully considered pursuit of the facts, on a case by case basis, which spawned an inevitable march to justice.
It is extremely unfortunate that both passion and prejudice appear to have so deeply clouded so many perceptions of what's ongoing. And it is particularly unfortunate that those driving the wheels of justice have chosen a path as uncertain and precarious the one they appear to be on.
I have no doubts that they, as any religious group, have a number of ex-members with particularly strong and decidedly unpleasant memories, as do I imagine many ex-catholics today. However, where crimes have been committed individuals have been prosecuted. There has not been collective punishment (and a denial of basic due process as a result), but rather a carefully considered pursuit of the facts, on a case by case basis, which spawned an inevitable march to justice.
It is extremely unfortunate that both passion and prejudice appear to have so deeply clouded so many perceptions of what's ongoing. And it is particularly unfortunate that those driving the wheels of justice have chosen a path as uncertain and precarious the one they appear to be on.
Anonymous | 8:47 p.m. April 16, 2008
Where are all the father's of these children? Why aren't they on TV
asking for their children back?
Why? | 8:59 p.m. April 16, 2008
How come all the media that keep interviewing these "wives" don't
ever ask them how old they are and how hold their children are? I saw one wife
show a picture of her daughter who looks 13 and the wife was probably 25? Ask
some questions!
katdrem | 9:10 p.m. April 16, 2008
What proof of abuse has there been? So far they have not come up with any
pregnant underage girls.
I've just heard that in one place the children are being held where there are not enough cots. so the little ones are sleeping on the floor because they are being guarded by men. AND they are NOT ALLOWED to close the door when they go to the bathroom!!!! so much for TX CPS "safe guarding those children." One FLDS mother has a 15 year old daughter how just wants to come home. How bad could it be?
This life style would not be for most of us. But, these people have lived this way for generations. They are like the Amish in many ways. They keep to themselves, they live and dress in old fashioned ways. I'm sure they don't watch violence on TV, or video games. But, most importantly, they want to live their faith.
I've just heard that in one place the children are being held where there are not enough cots. so the little ones are sleeping on the floor because they are being guarded by men. AND they are NOT ALLOWED to close the door when they go to the bathroom!!!! so much for TX CPS "safe guarding those children." One FLDS mother has a 15 year old daughter how just wants to come home. How bad could it be?
This life style would not be for most of us. But, these people have lived this way for generations. They are like the Amish in many ways. They keep to themselves, they live and dress in old fashioned ways. I'm sure they don't watch violence on TV, or video games. But, most importantly, they want to live their faith.
Bobbie | 9:20 p.m. April 16, 2008
Although the children are not LDS they surely share some LDS beliefs. Why then
since LDS is so family centered has the church as a whole not stepped up and
said if you need foster homes here we are, place them with us. Yes, it would be
hard, but let the LDS church practice what it preaches about families. Could not
the LDS church find some 400 plus foster families? It seems as tho they could. I
am praying for the children, someone needs to help them.
Jackson Smith | 9:27 p.m. April 16, 2008
re: Anonymous,8:47
To tell you the truth the FLDS fathers are all hiding out. They have always done this. I know some of them personally and they are the biggest bunch of cowards this side of Utah, Arizona or anywhere else. They use women to their full advantage in every way known to man. What these men do to women and children is a crime against God almighty.
To tell you the truth the FLDS fathers are all hiding out. They have always done this. I know some of them personally and they are the biggest bunch of cowards this side of Utah, Arizona or anywhere else. They use women to their full advantage in every way known to man. What these men do to women and children is a crime against God almighty.
Contrarian | 9:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
The original Latter-Day Saints were forced to move several times by people who
objected to their religious practices. They moved farther west to avoid the
jurisdiction of the US government and even sent one shipload of Saints around
Cape Horn on a six month journey only to find that American flags were flying in
what had been the Mexican territory.
When the federal law was passed against polygamy there were already thousands of Mormons who were practicing polygamists. The law set fines and jail time as well as taking away the civil rights of citizens. Statehood was withheld until polygamy was abolished and it is likely that the actions against the Mormons were taken to allow a secular and federal power to prevail over the religious. The Mormons received a timely revelation that disavowed polygamy, but there were and still are LDS people who believe in Joseph Smith�s original revelation � the FLDS among them.
The law is not even-handed regarding religious freedom. Those who believe that God sanctions polygamy are rounded up as child abusers while we allow the genital mutilation of infant boys by those who say it is their way of making a covenant with God.
When the federal law was passed against polygamy there were already thousands of Mormons who were practicing polygamists. The law set fines and jail time as well as taking away the civil rights of citizens. Statehood was withheld until polygamy was abolished and it is likely that the actions against the Mormons were taken to allow a secular and federal power to prevail over the religious. The Mormons received a timely revelation that disavowed polygamy, but there were and still are LDS people who believe in Joseph Smith�s original revelation � the FLDS among them.
The law is not even-handed regarding religious freedom. Those who believe that God sanctions polygamy are rounded up as child abusers while we allow the genital mutilation of infant boys by those who say it is their way of making a covenant with God.
Mink | 9:29 p.m. April 16, 2008
I find the power of CPS frightening. Suppose you have five children. An upset
schoolmate of one of your sons calls a children's shelter (on a prepaid
cell phone) posing as your son. He tells them a tale about how you (the
boy's father) mentally and sexually abuse your children - a complete
fabrication. All CPS has to do is get a judge to issue an order on the basis of
potential eminent danger, and all your children are taken. At that point, you
basically have to prove that you are not an abuser, while concerned CPS staff
can interrogate your children, subject them to invasive physical examinations
and otherwise traumatize them.
The longer this goes on, the more the CPS staff want to prove they were right in the first place to take your children (particularly if the case is widely publicized). I emphatically want children to be safe, but I find this kind of power in the hands of civil authorities unsettling. I understand it's a difficult balance, but remember that what many children go through in the hands of CPS is traumatizing - even more so if there was actually no perceived abuse.
The longer this goes on, the more the CPS staff want to prove they were right in the first place to take your children (particularly if the case is widely publicized). I emphatically want children to be safe, but I find this kind of power in the hands of civil authorities unsettling. I understand it's a difficult balance, but remember that what many children go through in the hands of CPS is traumatizing - even more so if there was actually no perceived abuse.
Anonymous | 9:29 p.m. April 16, 2008
i think if the state of texas wants to do this to the families of the flds
church they should also go to every home for unwed mothers in the state and find
out the parents names and take the remaining children from their homes and also
to every abortion clinic and insist that the parents of children under 18.
having aboritons give up their children too. insist on it.
A Texan | 9:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
I have looked into the face of women who have lost their children before and I
felt the pain they were feeling. I know they are pretty worried if they are the
real mothers. However, right click on the pics of these weeping women, save it,
then preview it in your windows viewer, then magnify the pics several times. Do
this on each one, Do you see any real tears in their eyes at all??????????? I
don't!!!!!!!!!!!! Not one drop will you see on any of them!!!
R. Spencer Robinson | 9:38 p.m. April 16, 2008
Without the text of the affidavit and warrant, I can only articulate the legal
principles that govern. Doug S initially said without Sarah the warrant was
invalid. He now says if Sarah exists at all, she had little to do with the
warrant, quite a change from "No 'Sarah', no valid warrant."
Doug S says five minutes of independent corroboration would have established Jessop was not in Texas at relevant times. He says the warrant is a transparent sham. He does not say how he knows Jessop was not in Texas at relevant times, or provide the basis for his conclusion the warrant was a transparent sham. He may be relying on the media for his information, and reacting emotionally.
The media doesn't always report accurately. The courts will not rely on media reports, or less than complete information, nor will they base a ruling on emotions. They will review evidence presented consistent with the rules of evidence, rules of criminal procedure, and the Texas and federal constitutions. Hopefully, they will make an objective decision consistent with the controlling legal authority.
Doug S says five minutes of independent corroboration would have established Jessop was not in Texas at relevant times. He says the warrant is a transparent sham. He does not say how he knows Jessop was not in Texas at relevant times, or provide the basis for his conclusion the warrant was a transparent sham. He may be relying on the media for his information, and reacting emotionally.
The media doesn't always report accurately. The courts will not rely on media reports, or less than complete information, nor will they base a ruling on emotions. They will review evidence presented consistent with the rules of evidence, rules of criminal procedure, and the Texas and federal constitutions. Hopefully, they will make an objective decision consistent with the controlling legal authority.
Warren Jeffs | 9:49 p.m. April 16, 2008
Everyone keeps over looking the fact that Warren is still the religious leader.
Isaac Jeffs, Merril Jessop, Willie Jessop and Wendell Neilsen may be in charge
of work crews, but whether underage brides are still being taken is under
Warren's influence. Leading by example, warren was prosecuted and convicted
of arranging underage marriages. What helped convict him was his own audio
tapes. If you have listened to any of these, he admits his guilt, he knows what
he does is illegal, but believes GOD was protecting he and his people.
In debating guilt, you have to ignore facts. The facts are he has arranged many underage unions. YFZ ranch and the faithful has no power to override the will of the prophet. I own over 500 of these audio cassettes and I know whats on them. They were offered to Texas DPS, but they seem to have more of these than I do. Second guessing the evidence, in the absence of having heard Warren in detail layout his belief, is to defend an admitted religiouly motivated pedophile. You could access some of these online, but would continue to argue and defend the FLDS regardless of these Facts.
In debating guilt, you have to ignore facts. The facts are he has arranged many underage unions. YFZ ranch and the faithful has no power to override the will of the prophet. I own over 500 of these audio cassettes and I know whats on them. They were offered to Texas DPS, but they seem to have more of these than I do. Second guessing the evidence, in the absence of having heard Warren in detail layout his belief, is to defend an admitted religiouly motivated pedophile. You could access some of these online, but would continue to argue and defend the FLDS regardless of these Facts.
To Warren Jeffs | 10:03 p.m. April 16, 2008
"You could access some of these online, but would continue to argue and
defend the FLDS regardless of these Facts."
I, of course, encourage everyone to do so. Much of what Jeffs says in bone-chilling regarding race and celestial marriage.
You're absolutely correct. To listen to many here, it boggles the mind. It's like they are reading a script regardless of what's being pointed out by others and of course nothing will sway them, not ever it seems. What's important is that the outside world see the type of rationalizing exhibited here.
I, of course, encourage everyone to do so. Much of what Jeffs says in bone-chilling regarding race and celestial marriage.
You're absolutely correct. To listen to many here, it boggles the mind. It's like they are reading a script regardless of what's being pointed out by others and of course nothing will sway them, not ever it seems. What's important is that the outside world see the type of rationalizing exhibited here.
Polygamy In Utah | 10:03 p.m. April 16, 2008
Mark Shurtleff the Attorney General estimated polygamist at roughly 40,000 in
Utah, but research suggests nearly double that suggesting one of many reasons
why sympathy and religious tollerance exists there. Constitutionalist,
conspiracy theorist, government hating militia's and polygamist have more
than once defended their rights to own assault rifles, with that belief that one
day they will have to fight their government. 10 years in Utah I heard it all.
The FLDS today and us tomorrow!
But who is us and defending Weaver, Koresh, the Lafferty's, Ervil LeBaron or Warren Jeffs is based on the idea that idea that civil authority will take advantage on one group, then like domino's groups less extreme. Thus many defend the most extreme regardless of their crimes or the facts known to enforcement and protection agencies.
Is utah next? Maybe! The kingston's Allred's, Harmston, Collier, Peterson and a string of fringe groups, Fundamentalist have been ignored for decades and have businesses that contribute to Utah's economy. The Kinston businesses alone are worth 750 million dollars.
Between similiarities in relgion, kin or ancestors and a huge economy in rural Utah, raids similiar to Texas could be devasting in more ways than one!
But who is us and defending Weaver, Koresh, the Lafferty's, Ervil LeBaron or Warren Jeffs is based on the idea that idea that civil authority will take advantage on one group, then like domino's groups less extreme. Thus many defend the most extreme regardless of their crimes or the facts known to enforcement and protection agencies.
Is utah next? Maybe! The kingston's Allred's, Harmston, Collier, Peterson and a string of fringe groups, Fundamentalist have been ignored for decades and have businesses that contribute to Utah's economy. The Kinston businesses alone are worth 750 million dollars.
Between similiarities in relgion, kin or ancestors and a huge economy in rural Utah, raids similiar to Texas could be devasting in more ways than one!
Texans are Goons | 10:11 p.m. April 16, 2008
There are pregnant girls under the age of 16 in every neighborhood in Texas.
There are pregnant girls walking thru the doors of every abortion clinic in
Texas every single day. Why don't the authorities round up these children,
all their neighbors children, every single child in every community in Texas and
lock them up so no more of them will be abused? How many of these underaged
girls were impregnated by a man over the age of 17? Does the state of Texas care
or ever investigate this. No, they don't.
Return the FLDS children to their mothers. I the state has evidence of a specific case of child abuse, arrest the person responsible. Do this legally and humanely, not gestapo-like. Texas authorities think they are above the law.
Return the FLDS children to their mothers. I the state has evidence of a specific case of child abuse, arrest the person responsible. Do this legally and humanely, not gestapo-like. Texas authorities think they are above the law.
Anonymous | 10:14 p.m. April 16, 2008
This illegal raid did not simply materialize overnight. To amass this vast
number of officers and resources was weeeks in the making. Come clean Texas!
Do you think the rest of the country is as dumb and naive as you think to
believe this military action formed as the result of a bogus phone call? The
raid on the people of Short Creek in 1953 was funded by the state legislature
under the guise of "grasshopper control" to keep it secret. How long
has Texas been planning this Hitler-like charade?
R Spencer who? | 10:15 p.m. April 16, 2008
Dale Barlow was named by the mysterious 16 yr-old girl as the father of her baby
who had forced her to marry him and forced her to have sex. Based on an
apparantly phony call, the Texas Rangers got a warrant for Barlow's arrest,
went to St George to arrest him. They didn't. Barlow has a 16 yr-old wife
with a young baby, not the same girl. He hasn't been in Texas for 30
years. He was convicted for the relationship with his wife and is on
probabation. This was well publicized so the Eldorado cops and residents knew
about it. Anyone could have made that phony call. Naming Barlow proves it
wasn't legitimate. The girl doesn't exist.
Spencer, if you think the court in Schleicher County, Texas is going to behave as you think courts should, you've got another think coming. That judge will be biased against the FLDS and for the upstanding citizens of the county who want the FLDS out of their county. She will act accordingly, wait and see. Rule of Law has no bearing in this Texas court.
Spencer, if you think the court in Schleicher County, Texas is going to behave as you think courts should, you've got another think coming. That judge will be biased against the FLDS and for the upstanding citizens of the county who want the FLDS out of their county. She will act accordingly, wait and see. Rule of Law has no bearing in this Texas court.
Well said Texan Goon | 10:17 p.m. April 16, 2008
Texans are Goons: There are pregnant girls under the age of 16 in every
neighborhood in Texas. There are pregnant girls walking thru the doors of every
abortion clinic in Texas every single day. Why don't the authorities round
up these children, all their neighbors children, every single child in every
community in Texas and lock them up so no more of them will be abused? How many
of these underaged girls were impregnated by a man over the age of 17? Does the
state of Texas care or ever investigate this. No, they don't.
Because no one gives a hoot if teenage girls have loose morals, sleep with multiple partners, get pregnant and murder their offspring. It's legal and perfectly acceptable. You can have as many sexual partners as you want, but just don't make a committment. They're old enough to make all of the above choices but not old enough to commit to a stable relationship. What a warped society we live in.
Because no one gives a hoot if teenage girls have loose morals, sleep with multiple partners, get pregnant and murder their offspring. It's legal and perfectly acceptable. You can have as many sexual partners as you want, but just don't make a committment. They're old enough to make all of the above choices but not old enough to commit to a stable relationship. What a warped society we live in.
Elder Steven Snow | 10:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
A simple example of complicit cooperation, worth attempting to hush the FLDS
polygamy issue, is the participation of influential LDS attorneys with Warren
Jeffs FLDS group.
From 1991-2001 the contract city attorney for Colorado city was Snow & Nuffer. Both former County Deputy Attorneys they certainly knew the law and were aqutely aware of the claims of abuse. Elder Snow handled the Thorton Custody case in the late 1980's, in Fischer vs Johanson. The monies were FLDS and they battled to get a step father custody of 6 children, 4 girls who were forced into the FLDS by Elder Snows efforts.
This was Blood money deposited into Mr. Snows bank account, it was 10% tithing to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and it was the lives of 4 little girls, 2 boys.
The reality of this need to "circle the wagons" to defend Warren Jeffs, a already convicted felon, with hundreds of self admissions on casstte. A trail of young child brides, is only part of the story. Defending the FLDS is ultimately defending Warren Jeffs and becomes suspect, as complicit relationships unfold.
From 1991-2001 the contract city attorney for Colorado city was Snow & Nuffer. Both former County Deputy Attorneys they certainly knew the law and were aqutely aware of the claims of abuse. Elder Snow handled the Thorton Custody case in the late 1980's, in Fischer vs Johanson. The monies were FLDS and they battled to get a step father custody of 6 children, 4 girls who were forced into the FLDS by Elder Snows efforts.
This was Blood money deposited into Mr. Snows bank account, it was 10% tithing to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and it was the lives of 4 little girls, 2 boys.
The reality of this need to "circle the wagons" to defend Warren Jeffs, a already convicted felon, with hundreds of self admissions on casstte. A trail of young child brides, is only part of the story. Defending the FLDS is ultimately defending Warren Jeffs and becomes suspect, as complicit relationships unfold.
A Texan | 10:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
Well I guess we will ALL see within the next few days what Evidence the CPS has,
which they gathered from these Children. But Im sure no matter what the
evidence, some of you are still going to be Anti-government and Anti-authority.
Look, its illegal to molest children in America...this is what this is all
about, its not about Jeffs screwed up beliefs or any FLDS, LDS or any other
religious beliefs... ITS ABOUT MOLESTING CHILDREN... get it???
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"There are no weapons of mass destruction but invading Iraq was the right thing to do." (No matter how big a mess it made and how wrong it was)
"We need to illegally eavesdrop on US citizen in the US to keep you all safe."
"We need to invade the FLDS's YFZ Ranch because there is a 16 year old named Sarah there that is being abused."
"We didn't find any Sarah but invading was still the right thing to do." (No matter how big a mess it made and how wrong it was)
"We need to violate the consitutional rights of hundreds of people to keep you all safe."
I sense a Texas pattern of behavior here.