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Texas officials brace for marathon day in court
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TJ | 1:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
This judge knows what's going to happen and the CPS folks pretty well know
what the judge is going to rule. The only question is how long will the judge
allow the hearing to go. It's pretty clear from several statements and
actions by CPS that they're in it knee deep for the long haul. It is also
quite clear, and will be more to those who can attend the hearings, that Texas
CPS believes the teachings and lifestyle in general consitute neglect and abuse
of the children. Just a pretty sad deal for people who want to live a belief
that is not socially acceptable(I'm not talking about traditional abuse
here folks). Taking kids from parents is an extreme, should be last resort
measure. You see in this Country we give a great deal of deference in allowing
parents to control, teach, and yes even indoctrinate their kids. Even when that
doctine or teaching appears very extreme and weird(I'm not taking about
abuse). This will be a long ordeal for these kids and mothers.
To TJ | 1:59 p.m. April 16, 2008
Texas is talking about ABUSE.
You want to change the subject. The teachings and practices are against the LAW
You want to change the subject. The teachings and practices are against the LAW
Tom Green County | 2:08 p.m. April 16, 2008
What an amazing irony that this case is being heard in a county with that name.
Comments continue below
DC | 2:10 p.m. April 16, 2008
Until Texas changed the law 2 1/2 year ago, it was legal in the proud state of
Texas for a 14-year-old to marry with his or her parents' consent. I find
that profoundly disturbing, but it apparently didn't bother Texans until
very recently. Even after the change, a 16-year-old can marry with nothing more
than parental consent. There is no maximum limit on the age of the
16-year-old's spouse. I find the idea of a parent consenting to the
marriage of a 16-year-old to anyone of any age profoundly disturbing, but Texas
apaprently does not because it is legal there. So finding several pregnant
16-year-olds (assuming you can tell they are 16 and not 18 or 20) is
heartbreaking, but not necessarily evidence that any law has been broken in the
backwoods of Texas.
Where the FLDS will run into trouble, of course, is that in some cases these marriages may not be under civil statute, but only religious, because Texas prohibits polygamy. But then it will be clear the real issue for Texans is the FLDS religion, not child safety: 16-year-olds marrying is fine for Baptists, just not FLDS.
Where the FLDS will run into trouble, of course, is that in some cases these marriages may not be under civil statute, but only religious, because Texas prohibits polygamy. But then it will be clear the real issue for Texans is the FLDS religion, not child safety: 16-year-olds marrying is fine for Baptists, just not FLDS.
Re: TJ | 2:15 p.m. April 16, 2008
It's nice that you have such a clear understanding of all that will take
place in court tomorrow. btw, maybe you could help with my picks for the
upcoming NBA playoffs.
Religious beliefs aren't the issue. Dressing weird isn't the issue. Living a different lifestyle isn't the issue.
Child sexual abuse is this issue.
Please stop trying to justify child rape based on religious beliefs.
Religious beliefs aren't the issue. Dressing weird isn't the issue. Living a different lifestyle isn't the issue.
Child sexual abuse is this issue.
Please stop trying to justify child rape based on religious beliefs.
Fritz | 2:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
It's decided already! The kids will be in foster care until the foster care
system breaks down and they are REALLY abused.
The history of abuse in foster care is legendary. No matter what the state. The court knows this and so does the general public.
Who will be the blame when the system fails??
The history of abuse in foster care is legendary. No matter what the state. The court knows this and so does the general public.
Who will be the blame when the system fails??
RW | 2:34 p.m. April 16, 2008
A few facts:
The basis for the search warrant that CPS used to gain entry to the LDS ranch(I won't use the word "compound")turns out was fabricated by a hoaxer at best and CPS at worst. Texas CPS has earned a reputation of stepping on the civil rights of parents in the past.
The man named in the warrant has not been in Texas in 30 years.
Any ABUSE found by Texas authorities naturally should be prosecuted. In order to equally enforce the law, every child in Texas should have sexual questions asked and be subject to a vaginal exam. That absurd statement should demonstrate how far out on a limb the State of Texas is in this.
Everyone should be reminded that CPS was so concerned by Abuse of another group in Waco they supervised the burning death of 75 or so children.
People have lost sight of the fact that in Texas, any girl 16 or older (with parental consent)may marry any man 16 or older, NO MAXIMUM AGE.
There are plenty of other cultures in this country that have arranged marriages without having their homes ransacked and their families torn apart.
The basis for the search warrant that CPS used to gain entry to the LDS ranch(I won't use the word "compound")turns out was fabricated by a hoaxer at best and CPS at worst. Texas CPS has earned a reputation of stepping on the civil rights of parents in the past.
The man named in the warrant has not been in Texas in 30 years.
Any ABUSE found by Texas authorities naturally should be prosecuted. In order to equally enforce the law, every child in Texas should have sexual questions asked and be subject to a vaginal exam. That absurd statement should demonstrate how far out on a limb the State of Texas is in this.
Everyone should be reminded that CPS was so concerned by Abuse of another group in Waco they supervised the burning death of 75 or so children.
People have lost sight of the fact that in Texas, any girl 16 or older (with parental consent)may marry any man 16 or older, NO MAXIMUM AGE.
There are plenty of other cultures in this country that have arranged marriages without having their homes ransacked and their families torn apart.
Sadly | 2:37 p.m. April 16, 2008
The lives of the kids are ruined no matter where they go...
I'm TJ | 2:50 p.m. April 16, 2008
Child sexual abuse is only the issue then why 416 kids carted off and not
allowed to speak or see mothers. If that is the only issue why are boys of ever
age taken as well. Why send teenage boys 400 mils away is child sexual abuse is
only the issue. Listen to CPS. "This ranch was unsafe for every single
child". That tells me that the child sexual abuse issue is not the only
issue by a long shot. CPS clearly believe and have said so, the indoctrination
of these children makes all of them at risk and in danger. So their religion,
beliefs, lifestyle, it's all part of why Texas has acted the way they have.
ediddy | 2:50 p.m. April 16, 2008
A most interesting report that 27 adolescent boys have been shuttled several
hundred miles away to a facility licensed by the state where ... Pretty
convenient and smelling tainted. To those of us who find the polygamous doctrine
and lifestyle, presuming that we even accurately understand it as opposed to the
hearsay we've heard, wouldn't you love to have your family split apart
and sent to deprogramming facilities so the doctrines and tenets of others can
supplant those you believe in?
To re:TJ,
It isn't as simple as you want it to be. It is about child abuse. It is also very much about all those other things you're trying to sweep under the rug.
To re:TJ,
It isn't as simple as you want it to be. It is about child abuse. It is also very much about all those other things you're trying to sweep under the rug.
Go Longhorns!! | 2:55 p.m. April 16, 2008
Creepy cults should not be tolerated.
Stunned | 2:56 p.m. April 16, 2008
If you live in a small town like I do, imagine what could be found if the whole
town of 600 was blockaded by law enforcement, then scoured for evidence for
several days. If you live in a bigger area, imagine the entire community of 600
people around your home.
What would they find? What cases of abuse and neglect would they discover? What criminal activities would they learn about?
I know my town well enough to know it would be a very long list. Surely they would find unsupervised children, illegal substances, books or articles with questionable subject matter, evidence of criminal activities, maybe some stolen goods, and much, much more. The crazy thing is that I live in a nice community.
Imagine if they then gathered up all of the children and interrogated them for days. What would parents say to get their children back? What would children say to get their parents back? Would they here stories about real and unreal abuses? Of course they would.
Lots of things would be discovered in my town. Lots of things would be said by desperate individuals.
I'm so stunned to see this happen in our country.
What would they find? What cases of abuse and neglect would they discover? What criminal activities would they learn about?
I know my town well enough to know it would be a very long list. Surely they would find unsupervised children, illegal substances, books or articles with questionable subject matter, evidence of criminal activities, maybe some stolen goods, and much, much more. The crazy thing is that I live in a nice community.
Imagine if they then gathered up all of the children and interrogated them for days. What would parents say to get their children back? What would children say to get their parents back? Would they here stories about real and unreal abuses? Of course they would.
Lots of things would be discovered in my town. Lots of things would be said by desperate individuals.
I'm so stunned to see this happen in our country.
Ronald A. Young | 2:58 p.m. April 16, 2008
I wish them a very good day. I hope that their ducks are all in a row, and they
come out shining. To me and many others these Texas Officials are Heros Not
perfect by any means. But they had the WILL to go in and deal with a bad and
expensive situation. I may send them a Donation. "There is No Law where the
Law is Not Enforced." If the FLDS had obeyed the Law they would have not
have been raided. As time goes on I look forward with much joy to seeing some of
the Males Charged and Convicted. Justice will be served and real healing can
begin.
Stop the Fraud and Lies | 3:10 p.m. April 16, 2008
The FLDS need to stop committing welfare fraud. We need more raids in Utah and
Arizona.
J. jiminez | 3:11 p.m. April 16, 2008
They,re coming for you folks next. It will be at night like all the storm
troopers operate. Don't let your neighbors know your business or
they might turn you in. Of course it will all be over an anonymous tip. All
those little children being abused - by your government no less.
To TJ | 3:11 p.m. April 16, 2008
If I took my child to a hospital with a broken arm and the doctor noticed
bruises all over the child and reported a potential case of child abuse to
authorities, ALL of the children would be removed from my home until authorities
had investigated and determined that it was safe for the children to be returned
to their home.
When Texas authorities went into the YFZ Ranch to investigate a 16 y/o girl's claim of sexual abuse, and noticed several other underage girls who were pregnant and possibly suffering from the same type of sexual abuse, authorities were obligated to remove EVERY child who was potentially at risk.
Since the FLDS were uncooperative in giving names, birthdays, parents, residences of those girls, authorities were obligated to remove ALL of the kids. Even now, authorities don't know the real names and ages of all of the kids. Many of the kids have given multiple names and have identified multiple women as their MOTHERS.
If the FLDS want to blame someone for having their kids taken away from them, they have only themselves to blame.
When Texas authorities went into the YFZ Ranch to investigate a 16 y/o girl's claim of sexual abuse, and noticed several other underage girls who were pregnant and possibly suffering from the same type of sexual abuse, authorities were obligated to remove EVERY child who was potentially at risk.
Since the FLDS were uncooperative in giving names, birthdays, parents, residences of those girls, authorities were obligated to remove ALL of the kids. Even now, authorities don't know the real names and ages of all of the kids. Many of the kids have given multiple names and have identified multiple women as their MOTHERS.
If the FLDS want to blame someone for having their kids taken away from them, they have only themselves to blame.
Julie | 3:14 p.m. April 16, 2008
So what happened to Dr. Perry? The biggest media event of his life and he goes
missing?
DC | 3:30 p.m. April 16, 2008
If Texas believes that the marriage of a 16-year-old is child sexual abuse, then
it should change its law which allows 16-year-olds to marry with their
parents' consent. I would support Texas in that -- I think 16 is too
young, and it is particularly disturbing when the spouse is much older. No
parent should be able to put his child in that situation. But until Texas
changes its law to outlaw the marriage of 16-year-olds, then it should stop
trying to claim that this is about sexual abuse. The marriages of 16-year-olds
to 50-year-olds would be entirely legal in Texas -- appalling as that might be
to people other than Texans -- were they not polygamous. My religion prohibits
polygamy, but I don't believe the state should send armored vehicles to
impose my religious beliefs on an odd minority. Apply the law equally to
Baptists and FLDS, and Texas would have my support. So far, Texas has not even
come close to the impartial application of the law.
Re: Stunned | 3:33 p.m. April 16, 2008
And what exactly does your scenario have to do with the facts of this case?
Does your town force young teenage girls to "spiritually" marry any dirty old man that your mayor chooses?
Does your town hold it's citizens prisoner and refuse to allow them to leave without your mayor's permission?
Does your town tell you that it is your religious duty to do whatever the mayor tells you to do, even if it's against the law or involves child abuse?
Does your town force young teenage girls to "spiritually" marry any dirty old man that your mayor chooses?
Does your town hold it's citizens prisoner and refuse to allow them to leave without your mayor's permission?
Does your town tell you that it is your religious duty to do whatever the mayor tells you to do, even if it's against the law or involves child abuse?
Timj | 3:46 p.m. April 16, 2008
If your neighbor took a child to a hospital with a broken arm and a doctor
noticed bruises all over the child...
Would all of the children be removed from your neighbor's home and your home? Don't think so. What if they found that three of your neighbors had been abusing their children? Does that give the government the right to take your kids?
Still no.
Sorry, but if you want to prosecute someone here, please prosecute the men and leave the women and children alone.
Would all of the children be removed from your neighbor's home and your home? Don't think so. What if they found that three of your neighbors had been abusing their children? Does that give the government the right to take your kids?
Still no.
Sorry, but if you want to prosecute someone here, please prosecute the men and leave the women and children alone.
Too Go Longhorns!! | 2:55 " | 3:49 p.m. April 16, 2008
You get out your broad brush and say, "Creepy cults should not be
tolerated" period.
So... Who gets to define "Creepy"?
What about those cults who practice symbolic canibalism and drinking of human blood?
So... Who gets to define "Creepy"?
What about those cults who practice symbolic canibalism and drinking of human blood?
Thomas | 3:47 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Creepy cults should not be tolerated."
I agree. Shut down Trinity United Church of Christ, too. Ditto Nation of Islam, Fred Phelps' embarrassing Baptist outfit, etc.
We need some bright lines as to which "creepy cults" will be "tolerated." As has been pointed out, a fair number of Baptists think mainstream Mormonism is a creepy cult. I'm happy to return the favor. Plenty of sneering atheists think that *all* religion is cultish, with the possible exception of some watered-down mainstream Protestant outfit whose preaching is indistinguishable from whatever the Democratic Party platform du jour happens to be.
Don't tolerate the cults -- but don't tolerate playing fast and loose with the law, either, as virtually every state's child protective services bureaucracy is wont to do as their default setting.
I agree. Shut down Trinity United Church of Christ, too. Ditto Nation of Islam, Fred Phelps' embarrassing Baptist outfit, etc.
We need some bright lines as to which "creepy cults" will be "tolerated." As has been pointed out, a fair number of Baptists think mainstream Mormonism is a creepy cult. I'm happy to return the favor. Plenty of sneering atheists think that *all* religion is cultish, with the possible exception of some watered-down mainstream Protestant outfit whose preaching is indistinguishable from whatever the Democratic Party platform du jour happens to be.
Don't tolerate the cults -- but don't tolerate playing fast and loose with the law, either, as virtually every state's child protective services bureaucracy is wont to do as their default setting.
Re: DC @3:30 | 3:54 p.m. April 16, 2008
A 16 year old ( they found 18 of them that fit this description) who is pregnant
AND has a child that is 8 months old... DO THE MATH!
They have a 16 year old WITH 4 (yes that is four) children... AGAIN, DO THE MATH!
This IS about child sex abuse!!!
They have a 16 year old WITH 4 (yes that is four) children... AGAIN, DO THE MATH!
This IS about child sex abuse!!!
Anonymous | 3:52 p.m. April 16, 2008
once again everyone keeps talking about religion. This has nothing to do with
religions issues these girls are abused from age 13 and taught until that age
how to become the next victim. if you lesson to CPS they say they were under fed
as well it is a case about ABUSE and that is That
dg | 3:56 p.m. April 16, 2008
Maybe those "peace loving" FLDS should move to Yemen. People look
more kindly to their type there.
Yemeni girl, 8, gets divorce after forced marriage
1 day ago
SANAA (AFP) � A Yemeni court on Tuesday granted a divorce to an eight-year-old girl whose unemployed father forced her into an arranged marriage this year, saying he feared she might be kidnapped.
"I am happy that I am divorced now. I will be able to go back to school," Nojud Mohammed Ali said, after a public hearing in Sanaa's court of first instance.
Her former husband, 28-year-old Faez Ali Thameur, said he married the child "with her consent and that of her parents" but that he did not object to her divorce petition.
In response to a question from Judge Mohammed al-Qadhi, he acknowledged that the "marriage was consummated, but I did not beat her."
Yemen, one of the world's poorest countries, has no law governing the minimum age of marriage.
Nojud was a second grader in primary school when the marriage took place two and a half months ago.
Yemeni girl, 8, gets divorce after forced marriage
1 day ago
SANAA (AFP) � A Yemeni court on Tuesday granted a divorce to an eight-year-old girl whose unemployed father forced her into an arranged marriage this year, saying he feared she might be kidnapped.
"I am happy that I am divorced now. I will be able to go back to school," Nojud Mohammed Ali said, after a public hearing in Sanaa's court of first instance.
Her former husband, 28-year-old Faez Ali Thameur, said he married the child "with her consent and that of her parents" but that he did not object to her divorce petition.
In response to a question from Judge Mohammed al-Qadhi, he acknowledged that the "marriage was consummated, but I did not beat her."
Yemen, one of the world's poorest countries, has no law governing the minimum age of marriage.
Nojud was a second grader in primary school when the marriage took place two and a half months ago.
Stunned - reply to re: stunned | 3:57 p.m. April 16, 2008
My point actually wasn't with the nature of what led to the raid. I hit my
200 word maximum right before making the ultimate point.
That is that we will have to look at the long list of charges, allegations, and innuendos that come from this raid. Some will have merit and others will not.
When I decide for myself how to judge these people, I will compare it to the results I would expect from a massive similar raid on my own small town.
If the list of problems is smaller than what I would have expected from such a raid and investigation on my own community, then I will have to consider that. If the list is longer than I would expect from my own community, I will need to consider that as well.
Right now, we have a ton of propaganda from both sides, and a situation that parallels things we read about from WW2. The best way to judge it is to consider the results of what they are being subjected to, and then compare it to what would happen if the same thing happened to our communities.
Sadly, I worry my town would show worse.
That is that we will have to look at the long list of charges, allegations, and innuendos that come from this raid. Some will have merit and others will not.
When I decide for myself how to judge these people, I will compare it to the results I would expect from a massive similar raid on my own small town.
If the list of problems is smaller than what I would have expected from such a raid and investigation on my own community, then I will have to consider that. If the list is longer than I would expect from my own community, I will need to consider that as well.
Right now, we have a ton of propaganda from both sides, and a situation that parallels things we read about from WW2. The best way to judge it is to consider the results of what they are being subjected to, and then compare it to what would happen if the same thing happened to our communities.
Sadly, I worry my town would show worse.
Gene | 4:07 p.m. April 16, 2008
I'm not LDS, FLDS, Christian, or belong to any religion. Still, I respect
their beliefs and they should be free to practice their beliefs within a basic
law-abiding framework. No child brides and no abuse. Other than that, let them
be free to live life as they so choose. This is America, after all!
re: RW | 4:08 p.m. April 16, 2008
Facts?? You have the facts?? Why isn't the DN interviewing YOU? You dismiss
the initial phone call as a hoax, but you readily take the word of a convicted
child molester that he hasn't been in Texas for 30 years. You claim the CPS
has a reputation of stepping on civil rights, but don't acknowledge that
FLDS members do, also. I don't think any of us have the "facts"
yet.
wrz | 4:11 p.m. April 16, 2008
>>Religious beliefs aren't the issue. Dressing weird isn't the
issue. Living a different lifestyle isn't the issue.
Child sexual abuse is this issue.<<
The heck you say! Then why did the state round up little boys? Do you have evidence that little boys are abused?
The true issue is that a dominant religion of the area (which shall remain nameless but we know who it is) doesn't like what they see going on in another religion.
Child sexual abuse is this issue.<<
The heck you say! Then why did the state round up little boys? Do you have evidence that little boys are abused?
The true issue is that a dominant religion of the area (which shall remain nameless but we know who it is) doesn't like what they see going on in another religion.
wrz | 4:23 p.m. April 16, 2008
>>Since the FLDS were uncooperative in giving names, birthdays, parents,
residences of those girls, authorities were obligated to remove ALL of the kids.
Even now, authorities don't know the real names and ages of all of the
kids. Many of the kids have given multiple names and have identified multiple
women as their MOTHERS.<<
No one is required to say anything about anything. It says so in the Miranda Rights. Were these people read their Miranda Rights, which is required when someone is arrested? And if these folks were not arrested why were they forcefully taken away?
No one is required to say anything about anything. It says so in the Miranda Rights. Were these people read their Miranda Rights, which is required when someone is arrested? And if these folks were not arrested why were they forcefully taken away?
Matt in Tucson | 4:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
According to court documents and previously published reports, the name given by
the caller was most likely "Sarah Jeffs." She claims to have been
born in either December or February. Of course, the rest of the call as
reported in the court documents clearly makes the phone call a hoax. Arizona
was smart enough to realize this. The Texas Baptists were blinded by bigotry.
Allz-I-Know | 4:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
It would appear that the Texas CPS is very confident with their case, or else
they would be "quietly" returning the children, after announcing that
they had investigated and were satisfied that the children were not in danger.
Let's see what happens at the hearing. Maybe there's something here, maybe there isn't. Let the system work, and hopefully the result will be right, legal, and just.
Let's see what happens at the hearing. Maybe there's something here, maybe there isn't. Let the system work, and hopefully the result will be right, legal, and just.
The Temple | 4:41 p.m. April 16, 2008
While I have followed a different religion for many years, I was raised Morman
(not FLDS). I know virtually nothing (other than what the media says) about the
FLDS, but I feel like I have an idea of what some of their values are. One in
particular is the sanctity of a temple.
As a child, a visit to the temple was nothing routine. It wasn't like the many church activities and places that people come to take for granted. That was the one place where everyone was reverant.
It is heart-wrenching to think of a SWAT team bursting into a temple and aggressively searching for evidence. Maybe there are all kinds of reasons to think of it as some kind of "false" temple, or something like that. But, I can only feel sick in the pit of my stomache when I think of a temple being defiled without regard to its spiritual significance. I don't get the "bed" thing, but I also haven't heard an explanation for the bed from anyone who is from that group.
A report said men were crying as it happened, and I believe it - and not because they were worried about evidence.
As a child, a visit to the temple was nothing routine. It wasn't like the many church activities and places that people come to take for granted. That was the one place where everyone was reverant.
It is heart-wrenching to think of a SWAT team bursting into a temple and aggressively searching for evidence. Maybe there are all kinds of reasons to think of it as some kind of "false" temple, or something like that. But, I can only feel sick in the pit of my stomache when I think of a temple being defiled without regard to its spiritual significance. I don't get the "bed" thing, but I also haven't heard an explanation for the bed from anyone who is from that group.
A report said men were crying as it happened, and I believe it - and not because they were worried about evidence.
addendum to "creepy cult" acts | 4:35 p.m. April 16, 2008
There seems to be some confusion with the term introduced - "creepy
cults."
In this particular area of cult behavior and basic beliefs that stem from what one "religious leader" told them years ago - I would like to add:
A "creepy cult" would be one that believes it is "God's Will" and indeed "God's Command" that men may marry numerous women. To take the "creepiness" one step further, I would add that the arranged marriages between old men and pubescent and pre-pubescent little girls goes way beyond what one may determine to be called the ways of a "creepy cult."
In this particular area of cult behavior and basic beliefs that stem from what one "religious leader" told them years ago - I would like to add:
A "creepy cult" would be one that believes it is "God's Will" and indeed "God's Command" that men may marry numerous women. To take the "creepiness" one step further, I would add that the arranged marriages between old men and pubescent and pre-pubescent little girls goes way beyond what one may determine to be called the ways of a "creepy cult."
Tex | 4:36 p.m. April 16, 2008
Any comparisons to WWII and the Nazis is just plain CRAZY! Get a grip!
ediddy | 4:44 p.m. April 16, 2008
Common sense is an oxymoron. Some of us are more off than on, and the rest of us
are just morons, not to be confused with Mormons. I'm out.
Anonymous | 4:40 p.m. April 16, 2008
Remember what happened in Wa. a few years ago with the children taken away from
parents and sent to adoption agencies in the mid west? This was all for money
for each child as has been proven and this looks like the same thing... an
adoption scam for money for the CPS woman and whoever else is in this. The judge
is the same woman who signed all the search warrents and they all know what she
will do at court, give the children to the state for adoption. Are Tom
Cruise's children next as a lot think the Church of Scientology is bad too.
Or the Amish, they dress funny and don't even use electricty and drive
horses. Those kids must be saved, teach them it is ok to have as many babies as
you want, as much sex as you want with as many men any age as you want but NEVER
MARRY them and be sure to get welfare for them all. I have seen how much is
spent with these mothers, just don't marry them1 That is bad!!! Unless
you're the same sex!!!
Anonymous | 5:04 p.m. April 16, 2008
I don't ever think old men should be having sexual relations with little
girls.
And I don't give a (blank) what any prophet, seer or revelator has to say about the authorization of this dirty little practice.
And I don't give a (blank) what any prophet, seer or revelator has to say about the authorization of this dirty little practice.
Randolph, Salt Lake City | 5:41 p.m. April 16, 2008
After reading Slate Magazine it is clear to me who we should feel sorry for. It
is obviusly the evicted boys. Multiple marrige is practiced in many parts of the
world but it appears that it is done in a ruthless way by this Mormon Sect.
According to Slate Magazine:
"To reduce competition for wives, the church systematically expels adolescent boys, thus trimming the eligible male population. It's estimated that the FLDS has thrown out between 400 and 1,400 male members in the last decade.
Church elders excommunicate boys as young as 14 ostensibly for bad behavior�like flirting with girls, watching a movie, listening to rock music, drinking, playing basketball, or wearing short-sleeve shirts. Sometimes called the "Lost Boys," they're considered apostates and cut off entirely from their relatives. Parents or siblings who protest are sometimes asked to pack their bags as well. Girls have also been cast out of the church, but this happens much less often. Usually this punishment is reserved for women who don't wish to be part of a polygamous marriage".
"To reduce competition for wives, the church systematically expels adolescent boys, thus trimming the eligible male population. It's estimated that the FLDS has thrown out between 400 and 1,400 male members in the last decade.
Church elders excommunicate boys as young as 14 ostensibly for bad behavior�like flirting with girls, watching a movie, listening to rock music, drinking, playing basketball, or wearing short-sleeve shirts. Sometimes called the "Lost Boys," they're considered apostates and cut off entirely from their relatives. Parents or siblings who protest are sometimes asked to pack their bags as well. Girls have also been cast out of the church, but this happens much less often. Usually this punishment is reserved for women who don't wish to be part of a polygamous marriage".
Hard To Believe | 5:44 p.m. April 16, 2008
That our President is allowing this to occur without visiting and obtaining the
facts. Now we separate the children by age and gender. We separate the men from
their wives, we shuttle parts of famiies (young boys) to other parts of the
State of Texas..I would not be surprised if a train pulled up next and these
people were promised to be taken to a "safe" place and then
interrogated into submission.
It is very disturbing that this is occuring in the United States in 2008. Why not a public outcry for human rights and due process. All we are really getting is confusion and muffled reports.
I do remember Waco very well. The facts were wrong and reported to the public wrong so the so called Texas authorities could raid the compound. Those who did not watch in horror can read about the truth now.
This case is biased and very unconstitutional. Just because it has been stated that there is abuse does not make it true, A person is, in this country, innocent until proven guilty. Also a woman with a cell phone is not in bondage. These woman chose to go and leave Utah and Colorado.
It is very disturbing that this is occuring in the United States in 2008. Why not a public outcry for human rights and due process. All we are really getting is confusion and muffled reports.
I do remember Waco very well. The facts were wrong and reported to the public wrong so the so called Texas authorities could raid the compound. Those who did not watch in horror can read about the truth now.
This case is biased and very unconstitutional. Just because it has been stated that there is abuse does not make it true, A person is, in this country, innocent until proven guilty. Also a woman with a cell phone is not in bondage. These woman chose to go and leave Utah and Colorado.
Anonymous | 5:47 p.m. April 16, 2008
I know of a 19yr.old Mexican female who has a 3yr. old and a 2 yr. old. How old
do you think she was when she had sex and both are in state care as to what
cost? And CPS is really catering to the mother to "Help" her. She is
living with an illegal now and who knows when the next baby will come. As for
Tom Cruise, he is on his 3rd marriage and his kids are homeschooled which is bad
to some. Or is Bill Clinton the model for boys to follow? But don't marry
oh but that is what Tom Cruise did but he divorced them. Is that really any
different?
Re: Randolph | 6:07 p.m. April 16, 2008
Get your facts straight. The FLDS community is not a Mormon sect. Repeating that
lie will never change that fact.
re: Allz-I-Know | 6:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
I'd agree with you about letting the process take its course, if I had any
reason to believe that the people in charge of the process were honest people.
But you don't go in to remove a single 16 year old girl who complained of
being abused with armored tanks and the kind of show of force they brought. This
whole thing was well planned way in advance, and the phone call -- real or not
-- was the trigger to put the plan into action.
Once they separate children from parents, they can probably get the children to say anything out of being scared and insecure, so they'll obtain false testimony to make their cases.
Had this been handled according to the way we understand rights to exist in this country, I'd be on the side of the Texas authorities -- feeling like they have a just cause. But the way they've handled it gives me no reason to trust what they've done or what they will do as they orchestrate this to its end.
I can come up with only one motivation that makes sense -- religious bigotry on the part of the Texas authorities.
Once they separate children from parents, they can probably get the children to say anything out of being scared and insecure, so they'll obtain false testimony to make their cases.
Had this been handled according to the way we understand rights to exist in this country, I'd be on the side of the Texas authorities -- feeling like they have a just cause. But the way they've handled it gives me no reason to trust what they've done or what they will do as they orchestrate this to its end.
I can come up with only one motivation that makes sense -- religious bigotry on the part of the Texas authorities.
Ted Clayton | 6:24 p.m. April 16, 2008
Julie - The "child trauma expert" they couldn't manage a press
briefing without, was Dr. Perry?
'Course, it may be nothing. 'We're tired, got a big day tomorrow ... somebody go out there and tell them we have to fold laundry'.
But if not, yeah, it's strange, and doubly so if the expert was Perry. He usually seems to enjoy the dynamic. Is it known it was him, 'couldn't show'?
'Course, it may be nothing. 'We're tired, got a big day tomorrow ... somebody go out there and tell them we have to fold laundry'.
But if not, yeah, it's strange, and doubly so if the expert was Perry. He usually seems to enjoy the dynamic. Is it known it was him, 'couldn't show'?
Re: The Temple | 6:55 p.m. April 16, 2008
I respect anyone that believes that a temple should be considered sacred, but
once any type of abuse begins happening in that temple it is no longer sacred by
any measure.
Where's the ACLU? | 7:34 p.m. April 16, 2008
So were all those teenaged boys in danger of becoming pregnant????? Sorry but
I've heard NO justification for taking ALL of these kids away from their
parents. If there is threat of sexual abuse, deal with it on an individual
basis.
dude | 8:06 p.m. April 16, 2008
So far, nothing has been proved. The children who were already raised to not
trust the gov't and outsiders will now have more purpose. The state now has
the power to take children from their loving homes. Parents have a right to
raise there children in their religion even if we don't understand or like
it. One thing I can't get over is where is the protest by the LDS? Why
aren't they lending there distant cousins a hand in this struggle for their
civil rights?
Cookie | 8:43 p.m. April 16, 2008
Wake up, America! Hoorah, Texas! Do all of you commenters know what FUMERASE
DEFICIENCY is? I
wasn't aware of it until today after reading other
Deseret articles and comments on other stories.
For these children's sake, look up FUMERASE DEFICIENCY... Do you think Texas taxpayers should
pay for present birth defects and future birth defects caused by lack of education and continual
inbreeding in the FLDS culture? Do you think that Texas should copy AZ. and Utah and pay out millions
in welfare to women, some underage, who have 3-10
children, who claim to be "single mothers" yet in
private are "spiritually married" to a man?
Their religious leaders teach them to lie!
Bountiful Films has documentaries... look 'em up!
NOW, DO YOU COMMENTERS GET IT? TWO OF YOU DID!
It's not about Nazis, Waco, or religious freedom.
It is about protecting innocent children, born and unborn! Let's all educate ourselves, do something
proactive, think of the children, and GET IT!
wasn't aware of it until today after reading other
Deseret articles and comments on other stories.
For these children's sake, look up FUMERASE DEFICIENCY... Do you think Texas taxpayers should
pay for present birth defects and future birth defects caused by lack of education and continual
inbreeding in the FLDS culture? Do you think that Texas should copy AZ. and Utah and pay out millions
in welfare to women, some underage, who have 3-10
children, who claim to be "single mothers" yet in
private are "spiritually married" to a man?
Their religious leaders teach them to lie!
Bountiful Films has documentaries... look 'em up!
NOW, DO YOU COMMENTERS GET IT? TWO OF YOU DID!
It's not about Nazis, Waco, or religious freedom.
It is about protecting innocent children, born and unborn! Let's all educate ourselves, do something
proactive, think of the children, and GET IT!
Tutu | 8:50 p.m. April 16, 2008
The LDS probably wants nothing to do with them because the FLDS is so fanatical.
Just as the Religious Right is fanatical in comparison to the average Christian
religious group and the Islamic terrorists are fanatical in comparison to normal
Islamic teachings. I am sure most all of us have "distant cousins"
we'd rather just forget exist, if at all possible.
witch hunt | 10:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
This whole thing reminds me of the wild hyteria in the 80s from the alleged
child abuse cases. Remember the Mcmartin pre-school fiasco? Over zeleous
prosecutors coersed fantastic tales of abuse from pre school children and with
no factual basis, innocent adults spent years in jail and had their lives
ruined.
That story stunk to me way back then and the truth finally came out about how you can get a child to say just about anything if interegated by these fanatical prosecutors. Where is the evidence? I am 100% against pedophiles and sexual abuse but how can they condem all these families? Is this Nazi Germany? Texas is screwing this up big time. If they don't have solid evidence immediatly they better release these people and apologize or I hope the state gets sued big time and heads roll.
That story stunk to me way back then and the truth finally came out about how you can get a child to say just about anything if interegated by these fanatical prosecutors. Where is the evidence? I am 100% against pedophiles and sexual abuse but how can they condem all these families? Is this Nazi Germany? Texas is screwing this up big time. If they don't have solid evidence immediatly they better release these people and apologize or I hope the state gets sued big time and heads roll.
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