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Heavily armed operation pleased officials, not FLDS
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Sophie | 3:36 p.m. April 16, 2008
For Heaven's Sake: to any of you who are outraged at the government going
in armed; were you present in St George during the Jeffs' trial? We had
snipers in the hills and Warren was flown in by helicopter each morning. Why?
To protect HIM from those in the sect who might do him harm. Ever heard of
Blood Atonement??? (a/k/a power-struggle and overthrow via death) So in that
case the EVIL government was trying to protect the Prophet from those of his
followers who would do him harm. If you think the members of this cult
aren't armed to the teeth, try driving thru Colorado City or Hildale once,
they will show you a sample of their weapons - just to get you to leave the
area.
its_Chet | 3:46 p.m. April 16, 2008
Please tell me where you�re getting your information. I only know what I�ve read in the news, and it�s led me to my current opinion.
Okay, so they went back for a second court order before they started kidnapping. I�m still not clear on why they decided to remove 416 innocent children and leave the supposedly guilty man/men there.
Reports from where or who?
I disagree with that opinion very much.
They sure did!
I consider that a positive light on the FLDS.
I see no reason to argue that point, though I think bigotry colored their decisions. (Remove the unholy plague!)
I take issue with kidnapping the children.
Mike | 3:58 p.m. April 16, 2008
Someone mentioned that they heard something on CNN, and they believed it?
I don't support the FLDS at all. I find their lifestyle abhorrant, and the marrying off of younger teenage girls to be particularly offensive. I do however believe in civil liberties and the 4th Amendment.
This raid was made on nothing but a pretext. It will be found by the courts to be illegal and based on a fabricated and phone call. Maybe not in the Texas courts, but this will certainly go to the Supreme Court and Texas will lose the entire case due to the initial illegal search. No evidence gained from the raid will be able to be used in court and all the kids and adults will have to go back. They should have had their ducks in a row so they could go after the actuall perps.
When people say that these kids were abused just because they live in a polyg compound, how do they know? It is guilt by association. Maybe some were but my guess is not all.
I don't support the FLDS at all. I find their lifestyle abhorrant, and the marrying off of younger teenage girls to be particularly offensive. I do however believe in civil liberties and the 4th Amendment.
This raid was made on nothing but a pretext. It will be found by the courts to be illegal and based on a fabricated and phone call. Maybe not in the Texas courts, but this will certainly go to the Supreme Court and Texas will lose the entire case due to the initial illegal search. No evidence gained from the raid will be able to be used in court and all the kids and adults will have to go back. They should have had their ducks in a row so they could go after the actuall perps.
When people say that these kids were abused just because they live in a polyg compound, how do they know? It is guilt by association. Maybe some were but my guess is not all.
Comments continue below
Sophie | 4:02 p.m. April 16, 2008
Chet, instead of playing media, judge, jury, Monday Morning Quarterback and
Perry Mason all in one, let's see what happens in the court, shall we? If
the initial warrant was based on false information, then the state has a real
problem. Thank goodness they went back for a 2nd warrant - or all of us civil
libertarians would really be screaming our heads off. I too reserve the right
to scream my head off, but let's see what the facts are first, agreed?
You'd feel awfully bad, I think, if the facts show you are defending the
rights of criminals to go uninvestigated. The men have not been arrested, their
rights have not been violated. The state (legally speaking, that's us the
citizens by the way) was obligated to remove the children if they had just
reason to believe further harm could come to them. To have that information -
yes, at present only an allegation - and do nothing with it would be criminal on
the part of the state (that's us).
Sophie | 4:12 p.m. April 16, 2008
Mike,
Couldn't agree with you more about the fruit from the poison tree. Although I hope that is not the reality in this case.
I've noticed the Sect members who appear on TV saying "there is no one by that name or I don't know anyone by that name" when referring to all 3 names of the alleged caller. These people are very specific in their words - both what they say and don't say. Names in the compounds are complicated things, many children don't have legal names or birth certificates. Regardless, I also agree with you that living in polyg lifestyle does not in and of itself constitue abuse. And I agree with you too that not all kids were abused. Some of the boys are not abused. But it is safe to say that every one of the girls becomes an abuse victim once she has begun menstruating and is therefore considered ready for marriage (and quickly finds herself so).
Couldn't agree with you more about the fruit from the poison tree. Although I hope that is not the reality in this case.
I've noticed the Sect members who appear on TV saying "there is no one by that name or I don't know anyone by that name" when referring to all 3 names of the alleged caller. These people are very specific in their words - both what they say and don't say. Names in the compounds are complicated things, many children don't have legal names or birth certificates. Regardless, I also agree with you that living in polyg lifestyle does not in and of itself constitue abuse. And I agree with you too that not all kids were abused. Some of the boys are not abused. But it is safe to say that every one of the girls becomes an abuse victim once she has begun menstruating and is therefore considered ready for marriage (and quickly finds herself so).
Oregon Observer | 4:09 p.m. April 16, 2008
Watching the situation from here, the tank, swat team, machine guns, etc. one
would not know that scene was taking place in America! What conditions had to
be present for them to start shooting into that compound with 400+ children?
The Waco tragedy ended with the actions of the FBI and ATF but it started with the CSP. And I've read 2 news reports that said Marleigh Meisner was part of the CSP group that reported child abuse to Janet Reno that triggered the federal action.
The Waco tragedy ended with the actions of the FBI and ATF but it started with the CSP. And I've read 2 news reports that said Marleigh Meisner was part of the CSP group that reported child abuse to Janet Reno that triggered the federal action.
Re: Mike | 4:16 p.m. April 16, 2008
I assume that you are psychic. I don't think any of us know how this case
is going to end. I can only assume that it will take quite awhile to sort
through all of the evidence, etc. Everyone is assuming that the original phone
call from the 16 yr. old is a hoax. I for one, doubt that. There are strict
laws in every state regarding underage kids and privacy. Who knows for sure?
The girl may be in protective custody for all we know and I certainly hope that
she is. She allegedly made several phone calls over 2 days. The original
affidavit is readily accessible online for anyone who wants to check it out. I
doubt that the state went in without reasonable cause and I'm betting that
they have all of their ducks in a row.
Realist | 4:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
Dear Oregon,
SHOOTING? Now you've got them going in SHOOTING?
You cheapen your argument when you are so cavalier with the facts. Your agenda is showing!
Let's keep it to the actual actions of the government. Which may in fact be found to be unconstitutional.
SHOOTING? Now you've got them going in SHOOTING?
You cheapen your argument when you are so cavalier with the facts. Your agenda is showing!
Let's keep it to the actual actions of the government. Which may in fact be found to be unconstitutional.
Anonymous | 4:21 p.m. April 16, 2008
Genocide
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Genocide (disambiguation).
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Genocide (disambiguation).
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]
its_Chet | 4:31 p.m. April 16, 2008
Sophie, with all due respect, and I really mean that, you just don't get
it.
I�m not defending abuse. Let's get past that for just a minute.
This is about a government that can invade your community, your home, and put a gun to your face and demand you hand over your children. Your own flesh and blood! Never mind the tears, sobbing, wailing and shrieking of you, your spouse, and your children of various ages. The government is coming to take them away. Maybe permanently.
People get upset when the government takes their money or their land. That can be replaced. I'm talking about the abduction at gunpoint of living, breathing, screaming, crying, terrified human beings who just happen to be your own children. What would you do? How would you feel?
And all this because they say there's a pedophile in the neighborhood? I sure hope there isn't one in my neighborhood! I'm rather attached to my children! I'd rather not have someone put a fully automatic machine gun to my head and bark at me to hand over my children.
But now, thanks to what has happened in Texas, I know it can happen to anyone.
I�m not defending abuse. Let's get past that for just a minute.
This is about a government that can invade your community, your home, and put a gun to your face and demand you hand over your children. Your own flesh and blood! Never mind the tears, sobbing, wailing and shrieking of you, your spouse, and your children of various ages. The government is coming to take them away. Maybe permanently.
People get upset when the government takes their money or their land. That can be replaced. I'm talking about the abduction at gunpoint of living, breathing, screaming, crying, terrified human beings who just happen to be your own children. What would you do? How would you feel?
And all this because they say there's a pedophile in the neighborhood? I sure hope there isn't one in my neighborhood! I'm rather attached to my children! I'd rather not have someone put a fully automatic machine gun to my head and bark at me to hand over my children.
But now, thanks to what has happened in Texas, I know it can happen to anyone.
outsider | 5:01 p.m. April 16, 2008
I see lots of complaints about the heavily armed PD entering the compound.
After all, these are peaceful people trying to live their lives. Is everyone
aware that domestic abuse calls and other family oriented problems are
considered among the most dangerous by police officers accross the country?
People react unpredictably when their family is involved and the officers needed
to be prepared for the worst. As to whether or not the raid should have
happened at all...I don't have all the information the state of Texas does
so I can't say if they had sufficient cause. Guess what...none of you has
that information either! As far as the whole "what happened to innocent
until proven guilty?" question, if I see that again I am going to be ill.
Has the general public truly become so stupid or naive as to think that
"innocent until proven guilty" means we can not arrest people with
cause and investigate? Precautions are being taken until answers are
forthcoming. With this group, that could be a while. If they would like to
speed up the process, they could try cooperating with authorities and help them
sort out the innocent from the guilty!
rush to judgement | 5:33 p.m. April 16, 2008
Remember McMartin preschool of the '80s? Wild histeria about child abuse
running rampant. Over zeleous prosecutors ignoring common sence and manipulating
peoples fears and the coerced testimonies of young children.
I remember the entire country outraged this child abuse was happening. I also remember clearly how the whole thing didn't pass the smell test. After the rush to judgement and after years of innocent people rottong in jail the truth came out that it was all bogus and all charges were dropped.
BEWARE of the lies from the government agencies and hype from news agencies.
The goernment response is way over the top. Arrest the man who abused the sixteen year old girl. Don't ruin the lives of hundreds of INNOCENT people!!
I remember the entire country outraged this child abuse was happening. I also remember clearly how the whole thing didn't pass the smell test. After the rush to judgement and after years of innocent people rottong in jail the truth came out that it was all bogus and all charges were dropped.
BEWARE of the lies from the government agencies and hype from news agencies.
The goernment response is way over the top. Arrest the man who abused the sixteen year old girl. Don't ruin the lives of hundreds of INNOCENT people!!
michael | 5:35 p.m. April 16, 2008
FLDS is being refered to as a cult. Besides Polygamy isn't it the same sect
of Christianity that we refer to as Mormons? Are the Mormons a cult?
michael | 5:46 p.m. April 16, 2008
Outsider-since when can the police arrest you and then figure out if you
commited a crime? Is that the kind of country you want to live in? I don't.
As a father I know it would be devestating to have my six year old taken from my
home at gunpoint ESPECIALLY if no abuse at all was taking place. That he was
being taken away because someone I didn't even know had said she was
abused. "first they came to get my neighbor"...you should know the
rest.
These RLDS people... | 7:18 p.m. April 16, 2008
have never had a disposition to violence as a group. Occasionally there is the
lone "Bull Elk" who visits mayhem on a competitor, even that, is way
in the past with the Ervil LaBaron type. I shop at Wal Mart among these people,
I drive to Lake Powell through their towns, they are peaceful and to themselves.
This whole thing is GIANT OVERKILL. We don't even fight in Iraq with this
kind of force. Michael Moore should make a movie out of this farce. We trampled
on their religious rights with hob nail boots. Watch out people when they come
for you....what will you do?????
since all the time | 11:09 p.m. April 16, 2008
"Outsider-since when can the police arrest you and then figure out if you
commited a crime?"
Since every day? It's called 'probable cause'. Little girls with babies...stuff like that.
Since every day? It's called 'probable cause'. Little girls with babies...stuff like that.
outsider | 12:02 a.m. April 17, 2008
Michael...do you have any idea how our legal system works? Every day of the
year in cities all across America, Police arrest people and then we figure out
if they committed a crime...the alternative would mean that every person
arrested is automatically guilty! I never said it was perfect or that I have
any knowledge about this case, only that this is exactly the way our system is
designed to work (four year investigation, phone call providing probable cause
and ensuing arrests). I am sure there will be those that start in about the
kids being the ones punished here and I do not disagree with that, but even
protective custody is a form of arrest. If you don't think arrests can be
made legally over bogus information, why not trot on down to the closest airport
and give them a bogus tip about some explosives you or your friends may be
carrying. Call the fire dept. and file a bogus report. I agree we should not
rush to judgement, but lets not go overboard here. The state of Texas is
following standard procedure...although on a somewhat larger scale than usual.
Question? | 1:10 a.m. April 17, 2008
Many people are willing to forgive thier past President his affairs before and
during his Presidency (one with a young woman in what I believe to be a sacred
building). Many Americans indicate this is the greatest leader we have had for
decades. Also, many Americans are more than willing to elect his wife, who
choose to stay with him after his multiple embarrasing affairs.
Why do more people not look at him as a sinister man preying on women and using them without reguard for thier emotions or any intention of commitment? Why is his wife not looked at as a brained washed woman for staying with a man who has done these things so publiclly?
Yet, many people are willing to look down at those followers of plural marriage because they are choosing to live thier principles and do so with a commitment to thier spouse, wether it be a legal or spiritual commitment.
Why are those women considered brainwashed?
They are making a choice, just like Hillary did.
I don't condone abuse, I do condone freedom of religion. Just because you live in a gated community does not mean everyone there is hiding or breaking the law.
Why do more people not look at him as a sinister man preying on women and using them without reguard for thier emotions or any intention of commitment? Why is his wife not looked at as a brained washed woman for staying with a man who has done these things so publiclly?
Yet, many people are willing to look down at those followers of plural marriage because they are choosing to live thier principles and do so with a commitment to thier spouse, wether it be a legal or spiritual commitment.
Why are those women considered brainwashed?
They are making a choice, just like Hillary did.
I don't condone abuse, I do condone freedom of religion. Just because you live in a gated community does not mean everyone there is hiding or breaking the law.
its_Chet | 8:05 a.m. April 17, 2008
Good point, �Question?� An unpopular
religion is and always has been a handicap in this country for anyone hoping for
equal treatment at the hands of the state.
Attention peanut gallery: What you have just read does NOT condone rape, incest, abuse, etc. Read on and grasp what is so upsetting about this for people with whom you disagree�
One allegation against one man should result in one investigation leading to one arrest, if the charges are credible (debatable since the alleged victim can�t be found). How does one explain the leap from arresting one suspect to kidnapping 416 children at gunpoint, wrenching them from their mothers� arms despite the wailing, sobbing, and screaming? Even if some of those children were the children of the accused and wanted to be rescued, did they want to be taken from their mother? And why were all the rest of the children dragged along, and taken from their mothers? Even if every man in town was a pedophile (yeah, right), did that mean it was right to take the mothers� children away from them? This was extremely disproportionate to the alleged crime.
Show me one accused and one arrest. Mass kidnapping is evil.
Attention peanut gallery: What you have just read does NOT condone rape, incest, abuse, etc. Read on and grasp what is so upsetting about this for people with whom you disagree�
One allegation against one man should result in one investigation leading to one arrest, if the charges are credible (debatable since the alleged victim can�t be found). How does one explain the leap from arresting one suspect to kidnapping 416 children at gunpoint, wrenching them from their mothers� arms despite the wailing, sobbing, and screaming? Even if some of those children were the children of the accused and wanted to be rescued, did they want to be taken from their mother? And why were all the rest of the children dragged along, and taken from their mothers? Even if every man in town was a pedophile (yeah, right), did that mean it was right to take the mothers� children away from them? This was extremely disproportionate to the alleged crime.
Show me one accused and one arrest. Mass kidnapping is evil.
RE: Question? | 8:13 a.m. April 17, 2008
"They are making a choice, just like Hillary did. "
Huh!?
ANSWER: Are you telling us that little pubescent girls made a choice to be impregnated by filthy old men? What part of this are you not getting?! It's not about polygamy; it's about child rape.
Huh!?
ANSWER: Are you telling us that little pubescent girls made a choice to be impregnated by filthy old men? What part of this are you not getting?! It's not about polygamy; it's about child rape.
The Texan | 3:23 p.m. April 17, 2008
The best defense is a good offense. These people are definitely offensive. Makes
for a bad defense.
Go Texas
Go Texas
Get Real | 5:16 p.m. April 17, 2008
If you think the members of this cult aren't armed to the teeth, try
driving thru Colorado City or Hildale once, they will show you a sample of their
weapons - just to get you to leave the area.
Sophie --- You have obviously never been to Colorado City/Hildale. I live in a nearby town and drive through every now and then and the only firearm I have seen was on the officer that was righting me the speedig ticket. You should only poast what you know to be truth instead of what you hear. That way you dont sound so much like an idiot.
Sophie --- You have obviously never been to Colorado City/Hildale. I live in a nearby town and drive through every now and then and the only firearm I have seen was on the officer that was righting me the speedig ticket. You should only poast what you know to be truth instead of what you hear. That way you dont sound so much like an idiot.
Jessica | 5:53 p.m. April 17, 2008
Questions:
Can't they trace the cell number the girl used to call in?
When will the DNA testing be done -- it will reveal who belongs to whom. The mothers' ages can be determined by dental exams --indicating whether a mother is under 20, for example).
No one is discussing what happens to too many of the sect's boys -- pushed out to fend for themselves as teens -- how else can the older men take so many brides?
Any information on the real percentage of the "spiritual" wives (single mothers) who receive welfare assistance?
Can't they trace the cell number the girl used to call in?
When will the DNA testing be done -- it will reveal who belongs to whom. The mothers' ages can be determined by dental exams --indicating whether a mother is under 20, for example).
No one is discussing what happens to too many of the sect's boys -- pushed out to fend for themselves as teens -- how else can the older men take so many brides?
Any information on the real percentage of the "spiritual" wives (single mothers) who receive welfare assistance?
A Thought | 6:00 p.m. April 17, 2008
How would this all be viewed if this were 400+ black children and their mothers
-- not just white children and their mothers? Would we all be more outraged?
Also, religious freedom does not ensure that we get to practice a faith that actually harms (physically or sexually, anyway). In Miami, we have people who like to sacrifice animals as part of their religion -- and we don't allow that. These are kids -- are we going to allow people to sacrifice young girls for breeders and push of the "extra" boys. Abuse is abuse. Maybe it's not been handled properly, but at least we're all paying attention right now.
Also, religious freedom does not ensure that we get to practice a faith that actually harms (physically or sexually, anyway). In Miami, we have people who like to sacrifice animals as part of their religion -- and we don't allow that. These are kids -- are we going to allow people to sacrifice young girls for breeders and push of the "extra" boys. Abuse is abuse. Maybe it's not been handled properly, but at least we're all paying attention right now.
Sophie | 7:20 p.m. April 17, 2008
Dear Chet and Get Real,
Thanks for insulting my intellegience and calling me a liar.
And here I was hoping to have a thoughtful discussion and respectful airing of differing opinions. But since my opinion is different than Chet's and my experience driving thru CO City and Hildale was different than Get Real's ... I'm either a liar or someone who just doesn't get it.
I won't try to persuade either of you further, but Chet, I'll restate my vehement support of every American's civil liberties. I just don't automatically assume the goverment's actions are gestapo like; and I try to keep an eagle's eye out for justice (and injustice) based on facts rather than emotion.
As for Mr or Ms Get Real, you and I probably live in the same Southern Utah town. Thanks Neighbor! Glad you had such a good experience in the border towns. I must have just caught them on a bad day.
God Bless America where we are all free to debate and insult each other while remaining convinced we are the only ones who are right!
Thanks for insulting my intellegience and calling me a liar.
And here I was hoping to have a thoughtful discussion and respectful airing of differing opinions. But since my opinion is different than Chet's and my experience driving thru CO City and Hildale was different than Get Real's ... I'm either a liar or someone who just doesn't get it.
I won't try to persuade either of you further, but Chet, I'll restate my vehement support of every American's civil liberties. I just don't automatically assume the goverment's actions are gestapo like; and I try to keep an eagle's eye out for justice (and injustice) based on facts rather than emotion.
As for Mr or Ms Get Real, you and I probably live in the same Southern Utah town. Thanks Neighbor! Glad you had such a good experience in the border towns. I must have just caught them on a bad day.
God Bless America where we are all free to debate and insult each other while remaining convinced we are the only ones who are right!
its_Chet | 10:58 p.m. April 17, 2008
Sophie, I tried to make it clear I wasn't trying to insult you. I
obviously didn't try hard enough.
All I was saying, with respect to you, was that you can't see my perspective. You don't understand why I'm so ticked off about what's happening.
If you want to put words in my mouth, perhaps without intending to do so, or without intending to offend, I feel obligated to explain myself.
I don't condone abuse. I hope the authorities get to the bottom of the allegation made by the elusive Sarah. I hope they find out if the allegation is true, and if it is, I hope they find their suspect and arrest him.
I have yet to hear any justification for stealing 416 children. It's okay for me to be angry that the government swept in with a small army and stole peoples' children at gunpoint. It's actually a good thing that I'm angry about that, because it shouldn't happen to people. I feel this way because I'm basically a good person who doesn't want to see people get hurt.
You called me out, so I clarified. It was not meant to be a dig at you.
All I was saying, with respect to you, was that you can't see my perspective. You don't understand why I'm so ticked off about what's happening.
If you want to put words in my mouth, perhaps without intending to do so, or without intending to offend, I feel obligated to explain myself.
I don't condone abuse. I hope the authorities get to the bottom of the allegation made by the elusive Sarah. I hope they find out if the allegation is true, and if it is, I hope they find their suspect and arrest him.
I have yet to hear any justification for stealing 416 children. It's okay for me to be angry that the government swept in with a small army and stole peoples' children at gunpoint. It's actually a good thing that I'm angry about that, because it shouldn't happen to people. I feel this way because I'm basically a good person who doesn't want to see people get hurt.
You called me out, so I clarified. It was not meant to be a dig at you.
Sophie | 9:17 a.m. April 18, 2008
Thanks Chet, for clarifying.
Your argument it resonating much more clearly absent phrases such as "peanut gallery" and "you just don't get it".
You aren't alone in demanding that the goverment stay well within its rights. In fact, we could probably have a great discussion over how many of the Bill Of Rights are still honored in a "Post 9/11" America. I think our opinions might be more similar than dissimilar. And in cases where the facts show the goverment has over reached; I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you to defend our rights. As for myself, I'm waiting to see how the facts of this case unfold.
Your argument it resonating much more clearly absent phrases such as "peanut gallery" and "you just don't get it".
You aren't alone in demanding that the goverment stay well within its rights. In fact, we could probably have a great discussion over how many of the Bill Of Rights are still honored in a "Post 9/11" America. I think our opinions might be more similar than dissimilar. And in cases where the facts show the goverment has over reached; I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you to defend our rights. As for myself, I'm waiting to see how the facts of this case unfold.
Jim | 10:09 a.m. April 18, 2008
Just a simple question -- Your remarks are the only ones that made full sense to
me.
Nobody seems to be able to use the term ALLEGED ABUSE -- no one seems to grasp that if there's no crime (and so far no one has been charged with one) then there's no victims, except those women and children who have been forcibly taken from their homes.
I see a light tank was used? The saying about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind.
Wake up the USA! We in the rest of the world are fast losing respect for you.
Nobody seems to be able to use the term ALLEGED ABUSE -- no one seems to grasp that if there's no crime (and so far no one has been charged with one) then there's no victims, except those women and children who have been forcibly taken from their homes.
I see a light tank was used? The saying about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind.
Wake up the USA! We in the rest of the world are fast losing respect for you.
its_Chet | 10:37 a.m. April 18, 2008
Sophie, I commend you on waiting to see how the facts unfold. It could
reasonably be asked of me to do the same.
I just can't get past the threat these run amok government agencies post to us all. And given my perception (flawed as it may be) that a given and actual amount of abuse and wrongdoing among the FLDS was deviously snowballed into something more, I feel that at least part of the motivation is bigotry, and another part is the malicious will of a government or sections of it to tyrannically subjugate the American people. Logic tells me that if the government wants to abuse the people, it has to start with the unpopular sections of it first, dividing and conquering, thinning the herd, and gaining the ill gotten blessing of the silent, powerless, apathetic, malevolent, uninformed, and misled among us. Piece by piece, we may see our constitution shredded, so slowly that we fail to notice. Even if this is done with good intentions, or if it is done because brash people couldn�t figure out a better way, it still should not be done.
In the meantime, innocent children have been taken from innocent parents.
I just can't get past the threat these run amok government agencies post to us all. And given my perception (flawed as it may be) that a given and actual amount of abuse and wrongdoing among the FLDS was deviously snowballed into something more, I feel that at least part of the motivation is bigotry, and another part is the malicious will of a government or sections of it to tyrannically subjugate the American people. Logic tells me that if the government wants to abuse the people, it has to start with the unpopular sections of it first, dividing and conquering, thinning the herd, and gaining the ill gotten blessing of the silent, powerless, apathetic, malevolent, uninformed, and misled among us. Piece by piece, we may see our constitution shredded, so slowly that we fail to notice. Even if this is done with good intentions, or if it is done because brash people couldn�t figure out a better way, it still should not be done.
In the meantime, innocent children have been taken from innocent parents.
Sophie | 12:19 p.m. April 18, 2008
Chet, I agree wholeheartedly with your logic of how a government can (and does
presently) abuse its power. You and I are kin soldiers in that battle. And to
me one of the more disturbing aspects of today's society is the willingness
of Americans to give up their rights in the name of security (you know the quote
about those who give up one for the other deserve neither).
When narrowing the discussion thread to the FLDS, I do become conflicted. Not because of their religion or any other unique aspect of their group. It indeed could be that the goverment selected them as an easy and early target because of their minority beliefs. It is at least as likely that good people of FLDS (good mothers, fathers and innocent children) have been manipulated and abused by a power monger, Jeffs, who weilds the weapons not of tanks and guns, but of eternal salvation and damnation. Just as it is wrong to do evil in the name of good (as the government might) it is also wrong to do evil in the name of God. More wrong still to look the other way.
Any unabused kids should be allowed home.
When narrowing the discussion thread to the FLDS, I do become conflicted. Not because of their religion or any other unique aspect of their group. It indeed could be that the goverment selected them as an easy and early target because of their minority beliefs. It is at least as likely that good people of FLDS (good mothers, fathers and innocent children) have been manipulated and abused by a power monger, Jeffs, who weilds the weapons not of tanks and guns, but of eternal salvation and damnation. Just as it is wrong to do evil in the name of good (as the government might) it is also wrong to do evil in the name of God. More wrong still to look the other way.
Any unabused kids should be allowed home.
its_Chet | 1:44 p.m. April 18, 2008
Well now it sounds like we agree completely, Sophie.
I bet more people on these message boards agree or come a lot closer to it than they realize.
It would seem the damage caused by this issue includes dividing like-minded individuals on the philosophical issues involved.
I think part of my apprehension here is that I believe the people who took these children are just about the last people I trust with them. I would agree that if any of them were in real danger of being abused they needed to be rescued. Trouble is, there�s a thin line between �rescued� and �abducted�. Given the unpopular nature of these children�s religion, and the involvement of another denomination that is known for rather uncharitable views of non-mainstream Christian religions, my eyebrows are definitely raised. I question the motivation at work just as I question the magnitude of the action taken by DFPS and its partners in this event.
Regardless, we will all be better served when we get an impartial look into the FLDS. I just hope it�s an impartial one.
I bet more people on these message boards agree or come a lot closer to it than they realize.
It would seem the damage caused by this issue includes dividing like-minded individuals on the philosophical issues involved.
I think part of my apprehension here is that I believe the people who took these children are just about the last people I trust with them. I would agree that if any of them were in real danger of being abused they needed to be rescued. Trouble is, there�s a thin line between �rescued� and �abducted�. Given the unpopular nature of these children�s religion, and the involvement of another denomination that is known for rather uncharitable views of non-mainstream Christian religions, my eyebrows are definitely raised. I question the motivation at work just as I question the magnitude of the action taken by DFPS and its partners in this event.
Regardless, we will all be better served when we get an impartial look into the FLDS. I just hope it�s an impartial one.
Sophie | 3:13 p.m. April 18, 2008
And Chet,
As you were kind enough to share your point of view as a father, I'll share mine too.
I've been a 14 year old girl repeatedly sexually abused by a mature adult family friend. It wasn't rape, rather a relationship (perhaps like a "spiritual marriage"). I would have lied about it unless presented with photos & then I would have defended it. It's part of the sexual abuse culture to groom or prepare the victim. A young girl comes to believe she is actually a willing participant. I don't know if you have a daughter that age, but I haven't met one yet who has the capacity to understand the enormity of the situation, or who can realize she is being manipulated. I would have defended my abuser till I was blue in the face. And heaven knows I didn't live in a society that condoned it, nor believe my eternal salvation and the eternal salvation of my family depended on my going along with it.
Do I know for a fact that is what goes on inside FLDS compounds? No I do not. Do I want to find out with as much reasonable certainty as possible. Absolutely.
As you were kind enough to share your point of view as a father, I'll share mine too.
I've been a 14 year old girl repeatedly sexually abused by a mature adult family friend. It wasn't rape, rather a relationship (perhaps like a "spiritual marriage"). I would have lied about it unless presented with photos & then I would have defended it. It's part of the sexual abuse culture to groom or prepare the victim. A young girl comes to believe she is actually a willing participant. I don't know if you have a daughter that age, but I haven't met one yet who has the capacity to understand the enormity of the situation, or who can realize she is being manipulated. I would have defended my abuser till I was blue in the face. And heaven knows I didn't live in a society that condoned it, nor believe my eternal salvation and the eternal salvation of my family depended on my going along with it.
Do I know for a fact that is what goes on inside FLDS compounds? No I do not. Do I want to find out with as much reasonable certainty as possible. Absolutely.
its_Chet | 4:47 p.m. April 18, 2008
Still in agreement with you Sophie.
Sorry to hear about.... that stuff you said. I hope you've had enough happy memories in between now and then to allow you to live in a different world than that, and not allow that to define you.
But most of all, I'm just glad that we agree that these people should be investigated. Investigate them and remove the guilty, and clear the names of the innocent so they go back to their lives, I say.
I hate seeing innocent people suffer just because of their skin, religion, etc.
Sorry to hear about.... that stuff you said. I hope you've had enough happy memories in between now and then to allow you to live in a different world than that, and not allow that to define you.
But most of all, I'm just glad that we agree that these people should be investigated. Investigate them and remove the guilty, and clear the names of the innocent so they go back to their lives, I say.
I hate seeing innocent people suffer just because of their skin, religion, etc.
Joyce | 6:36 p.m. April 20, 2008
Sophie and Chet,
So you are both saying you uphold domestic violence?
So you are both saying you uphold domestic violence?
Vicki | 11:46 p.m. April 23, 2008
THEY NEED TO G I V E BACK THE CHILDREN and investigate before they tramatize all
of the children. bunch of idiots.
OH by the way "MOM" on your comments: I would like to say is, This is America and the FLDS had their rights tromped on when they took all the kids from their families. Polygamy was never the issue!!
OH by the way "MOM" on your comments: I would like to say is, This is America and the FLDS had their rights tromped on when they took all the kids from their families. Polygamy was never the issue!!
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