to: Robert A YoungI really do get agitated when I read comments from
aperson like you who shows that they do not have any critical thinking
ability. They seem to be led to their conclusions and/or opinions by whatever
media is saying about a subject matter. They show that their views have not been
filtered through any intellect. And, intellect begins by being skeptical. Before
you digest any information, and add it to your data base(brain),hopefully you
will already have a large data base with which to compare whether or not the new
information is similar to facts, experiences, education, and/or intelligence
which has already been proven to be true or untrue. Without such a data base you
must rely upon common sense. At least start with the position of someone from
Missouri (the "show me" state). Government is the least likely source to be
When are they going to round up the parents in housing projects that allowed
their children to become pregnant at an early age... Are they going to round up
tens of thousands (if not more) of parents and children?...the Bill of Rights
appears to have been trampled here. At least in this case children's lives are
only ruined.. not destroyed as in Waco
If this was a fair world these children never would have been taken. But this is
No, the raid was not correct or just and by allowing the actions of the state
agents, the state has abused these children and their parents. If there is
"just cause", produce the warrant, arrest those NAMED in the warrant, and then
start the proceedings for a trial. So far, we have had nothing but allegations,
by an extremely questionable source which has not been identified beyond what
amounts to an anonymous telephone call. No one has been convicted of any crime
in direct relationship to this- the state of Texas has acted very
Had the Raid not taken place and total in the way it was conducted. Fast, Clean,
Complete, No Shots Fired, No one Dead or injured. Some people up set but oh
well. How else would the Abuse been stopped. Putting Jeffs in Jail did no good,
things just continued on. My have even gotten worse. Now the Abuse has ended and
the people who think the way the State went in and taking all the kids was not
proper it was. In Sex Abuse Cases you take both the Victims and the siblings, at
least until it is all sorted out. Weather or not the 1st call legit, truth was
found that made the State of Texas correct in their actions. Because they lived
in the same compound that and moved the kids and wife's around that it made it
like one big house and to get things sorted out everyone had to go. Now most of
the Women have gone back. After all abuse is their life and after awhile if you
are subject to it all the time it hard to live with out. It is their belief
system. But it is against the Law.
Unfortunately, statistically every large neighborhood in US probably has a child
molester living in it. CPS doesnt go into these neighborhoods with armored
vehicles and take all the children away. There is no question that removing a 5
or 6 year olds from their mothers and families is traumatizing and abusive. If
there is evidence that men are abusing children, take the men, not the children
and do it on a case by case basis, not for an entire community. The children
could have been interviewed individually, one by one and then returned to their
mothers. This terrible abuse of power undermines the legitimate and important
role of CPS, is abusive and traumatizing to the children, and is a terrible
tragedy. I would love to see polygamy stopped. I would love to see this group
dissolve, but not with this type of abuse. Abuse doesnt stop abuse.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to
alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation
on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem
most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate
that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient
causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more
disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by
abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of
abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to
reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to
throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Please. I was a teenage girl once...any man over 30 was gross. Sorry. These
girls enter marriages because they are trained to be "sweet." By the way, the
crying mothers on the interviews had a strange, child-like manner to their
speech. It was heartbreaking to hear, but weird.Moving forward, the
CPS will have to be allowed to closely monitor activities on the ranch, the way
they would do in any potential abuse case. We can't have a repeat situtation
like this. And the men on the ranch can come to the middle alittle bit here.
Wait till the girls turn 18. It's their arrogance and flagrant disregard for
common decency that put them in this situation as documented by Carolyn Jessop
and others reporting abuse.
"Rep. Drew Darby, R-San Angelo, praised state efforts in connection with the
FLDS raid and said, 'Don't mess with the children of Texas."'Ummm,
Drew, I think you just did mess with the children of Texas. Nice quote though.
Maybe you'll be included in the myriad law suits that will play out over the
next 10 years costing millions in court fees and (no doubt) awards. Or maybe
somebody will call CPS on you and tell them that you are abusing your kids.
Will it be a lie? Sure. Will it matter? Obviously not.
Listen to the mothers on the ranch...they have a strange "programmed" manner of
speech, with almost childlike innocence. It's heartbreaking, really. I do feel
for the mothers on a basic human level, but they essentially brought it on
themselves by their leadership's arrogant disregard for the law and common
decency toward some of their young. This has been well documented by Carolyn
Jessop and others. Also..how can investigators get to the truth with FLDS
leadership hovering around? They had to be separated, at least temporarily,
especially since many wouldn't own up to parentage, ages, etc. Hopefully
moving forward there will be no more suffering. Allow authorities to monitor
their activities they way CPS would do in any potential child abuse case. And
puleeze, FLDS supporters, quit saying that a 14 or 15 year old girl enters these
marriages willingly. They are going through the motions because they are
trained to comply and "be sweet." I was a teenage girl once...believe me, any
man over 30 was old and disgusting. Sorry.
Good for Texas CPS stepped up and did the right thing. Good Job "keep on keeping
on. Removing the kids from the parents and each other is common during an
investigation. It will take awhile but these victims will begin to Roll over on
their oppressors and talk. Once the brain washing begins to wear off and the
light of day is seen and the sight is a bright day then some will sing like
hungry song birds in the new morning dew. The cell phones where used for the
purpose of control. Supervised and wired visits should be allowed after the
investigation is done. The list of broken laws is legion.
to all you that said that this isn't going to effect the children I have a
story. In 1953 there was a raid on this same sect. they took the fathers to jail
and the mothers and children got scattered all over the state. on the utah side
of the town AZ had no say, but the government decided to do a test to see if
they could get away with the same thing. they picked a young girl that had some
children and took them from her. it took her over a year to get them back but
she did get them back. she had a boy that whas handy-capped from that time on.
he would run and hide if someone came to the door. that is the way it will
effect theses 400+ kids. if you want to look it up the lady was Vera
I wonder how many members of this sect have seen Warren Jeff's jailhouse video
where he admits that he's a fraud, and begs his brother Nephi to get a copy of
the video and show it to "gentile and apostate", and anyone who asks. "I am the
wickest man alive in this dispensation... I am not a prophet. I never was the
prophet..."Think the sect members would start second-guessing
When I first heard that Texas state had gone in and extracted hundreds of women
and children all based off of one phone call of abuse, I actually laughed,
thinking, Duh! You don't go to TEXAS to avoid the law! Any other state would
have investigated one home. But not Texas.But it wasn't just a phone
call. Remember Texas has had an informant of that sect's activities for four
years. Thursday will show what evidence they do have, which I'm anxious to see.
As a mother, it does break my heart to see the mothers' distress, but one of
them flat out denied that 14-year girls get married off to older men, saying,
"I've never seen something like that!" And here the Texas CPS has a
16-year girl old with 4 children already, in custody.o_O I think that one bogus comment shot the credibility of any of the mothers'
comments and protests. There were no actual tears, if you look. Weird.CPS across the country doesn't have the best reputation, and neither do
foster homes. I feel like most of the kids are doomed either way, unless they
are outright adopted by loving people.
The constitution is supposed to provide individuals protection from government -
that's why there are concepts like due process, equal protection, freedom of
religion, and protection from unreasonable search and seizure; all of which seem
to have been violated in this situation.The misstep the "officials"
took here was to disproportionately react to what appears to be a couple of
calls from 1 allegedly abused girl among the FLDS. Instead of
responding by investigating the individual situation, they somehow found it a
good idea to nab 400+ children.
Marleigh Meisner and her band of anti-family feminists should be given a life
sentence.This is a disaster.Just recently our national news reported
that 1 in 4 girls have an std by age 15. Bet that these 'endangered' mormons
don't carry that curse.Out society will infect them physcially and
mentally. They were far better off with their Mom's than under Meisner's ilk.
CPS in all states are always in a lose lose situation. If you go in...the
community bags you if you don't go in....the community bags you. It is a
thankless job and those who have never worked in the environment haven't got a
clue. I have inteviewed several children over the years and it is always heart
breaking to hear their stories. you never get used to it. I take my hat off to
the CPS workers in Texas for having the courage to stand up and be counted and
doing something will arm chair quarterbacks criticise.
To the person who said: "A happy child will have no problem with adjusting to
changes in their enviroment." Changes like losing their parents, their homes,
their routines, their religion, their work, and their play? You suggest that
the way to determine if a child has been abused is how well he/she adjusts to
the sudden loss of all that is familiar. An abused child is more
likely to exhibit acceptance of a new environment because he/she is relieved to
be away from an abuse. In my experience it is children who are well-loved and
happy at home who react negatively to being away from their parents. I have
seen six year-old boys cry on the first day of school, four year-olds run out of
pre-school in tears after their mothers, little ones who wet themselves, have
nightmares, and older children who are terribly homesick. Add to the meddlesome
mix a bunch of "therapists" who believe the children are cleverly hiding tales
of sexual abuse and you have a truly bizarre, nightmarish situation. Didn't we
go through this nonsense twenty years ago with trials for "satanic, ritual,
sexual, child abuse"? Wasn't it the same insane, sex-obsessed adults pressuring
I agree. If you are going to crack down on these teen marriages and pregnancy,
you need to round up every pregnant teen under 16 and their siblings and put
them in foster care too. This is a direct attack against the FLDS, they are
using the children to get them out of Texas. I LOVE Texas, but CPS needs to be
overhauled. I have personally experienced their inabililty to do the correct
thing in an alleged abuse situation. And let's all keep in mind that their must
be proof in each child's situation of abuse occuring BEFORE they are removed
from the home. If any geniune abuse occured, I believe the child should be
removed AFTER proof of the abuse has been found...not on one phone call!!
Everyone sees Yes this is suposed to be AmericaUtah treats the
people the worstMany innocent people are in jailProsecutors and
Judges are the problemNo one willing to take responcibility to lock these
people upThere is no Justice in UtahStay away
It seems like hauling all of the children away without investigating complaints
and children one by one should far exceed the authority of the Social Services
group. This would be like taking all of the children on the local Native
American Reservation because of pervasive alcohol and drug abuse resulting in
significant abuse percentages. There surely are big differences between
households, the way children are treated from family to family, and variations
in marriage ages. To treat the group this way appears much like the Japanese,
Chinese Interment Camps. There was little cause, but a big effect. Taking all
of the children cannot have been a wise choice.
Where is the proof that 416 kids were abused?Where is a
substanciated accusation?Where is the evidence of abuse?Where is coroberation of the phone call?Where is the intelligence
of Texas law enforcement?Where is the honesty of the Texas Judiciary?Where is the constitution?
I guess the Bill of Rights is wrong. Anything for the children, like stripping
them from their families and holding them for maybe up to 18 months with no
evidence. Guilty until you can prove your own evidence. Criminalization
without being charged. And I think the hair was planted.
I think Texas will have egg on their face before they are done. Taking children
away from their parents and home really scars the children regardless of the
circumstances of their home life. Putting children in foster care is not really
the answer.What they should have done is crack down on the group and
arrest every male who married an underage girl and explain to the group that
they are on to them.
Huh? As a foster parent, I can tell you that the 'happy' ones have just as much
difficulty adjusting to the new environment as the 'unhappy' ones. I've sat up
nights with kids who were beat so bad, they almost died, but they are crying for
the parents that beat them. The state of Texas has overstepped it's bounds.
They changed the laws to get the FLDS, and finally, they think they succeeded.
I hope that every child is either returned, or ever 13-16 yr old who is
preganant in the state of Texas, is picked up and put in foster care. Can't have
the double standards.
What would Joseph Smith do?
Lawyers work for the state not the client they are assigned to. The judge, CPS
and court appointed lawyers all work for the same person - get their paychecks
from the same agency. This is why anyone who has a court appointed attorney
never wins their case and is usually bullied into doing what the state wants
concerning the situation.
A happy child will have no problem with adjusting to changes in their
enviroment. An abused child will take a lot of baggage with them and have a hard
time opening up and trusting anyone.
It is interesting that people in America can sit back and watch (ignore?) the
suffering of the urban poor children and say to themselves, "It's a shame, but
there's not much we can do about it" while they are ready, whether
constitutional or not, to do whatever it takes to protect the offspring of
polygamists. It's not about the children; its about the "weirdness" of the
polygamists' beliefs.I have a hard time believing that these kids
are happy or relieved to be away from their parents where they can open up and
tell strangers how terrible the adults in their community are. I believe they
are likely scared to death to be away from everything they have ever known.Do people really believe that the foster homes into which these kids
will be placed will be better for the kids than with their biological parents?
This is not over. It might not be for several months, or even years, but this
is going to come back to hurt Texas.
What is it about breaking the law don't you people understand?Doesn't God want laws to be upheld?
Texas Dept of Health stats indicate that throughout Texas, 1 in 40 girls between
age 13 - 16 have had babies. Will CPS take all 13 -16 year old girls into state
custody? Stopping abuse is necessary. Rounding up all the children is not.
Civil Rights haven't got to Texas yet.
I'm sure that the CPS people have real concern for the children as do I and
everyone else that is normal, but, has anyone ask if they share the same concern
for the children living in the bad neighborhoods in Houston and Dallas who face
real day to day physical danger and who's mother's live with "Uncle" so an so
who do the girls on a regualar basis??????? I think not.... Taking similar
action in such neighborhoods whould not be so "P.C."....The Gastapo only picks
on the weak....
We all keep rehashing the same things day after day. It all boils down to: What
is best for the children. Stay in the life style they are used to! ie: Under age
sex/marriages! Mental and physical crultey or: Puting an end to it now while
there is still hope for a normal life. "The lawful thing to do"!The
children may be suffering now but in the long run, it is the best thing that
could be happening to them.
SO... the lawyers are there to represent the child (not CPS). So before they
even get to speak to their client (the child) they have to be briefed by CPS?
What's up with that?Maybe the Lawyers should try meeting with their
clients BEFORE meeting with CPS to see what their clients wants/needs are. Or
is what CPS wants the first and only priority in this case?
The questions will be very blunt and to the point. The only question is will the
children reply or will they be afraid to reply.Your scenario lacks
credability. You sound like an ACLU poster boy.
There are too many conspiracy buffs on here with all the wild stories of things
that never happened. This is an abuse investigation. Let it run it's
course. Stop entering wild, unproven, comments that are not helpful to either
side. Like it or not the government does function in spite of those
who do everything in their power to make it hard and impossible to function.
It appears Texas continues to try and do the right thing.I am
wondering how many of these anti-Texas posts come from the same individuals,
supporters of the FLDS community, who are trying to influence public
perceptions.It is not working.
How long before allegations of interviewers misleading children during the
interviews? How long before someone mentions that the children aren't getting
the best legal representation since some of the lawyers don't specialize in
family law (and none in polygamy)? Not long in my opinion.How long
before other minority groups or the ACLU etc. speaks out against this treatment?
If history is any guide, very long.
Texas was 100% right to do what it did do and what it is doing. It's too bad we
have those in society who tie the hands of law enforcement and government to the
point they have to wait for bodies before they can act. Texas CPS
and DPS are the finest.
You know what was wrong, to let these mothers go with the children, I was very
surprised about this, this community's existence is based on brain washing and
constant promptings when out in society. You know what was right, that the
authorities finally got the mothers out of there, and they are doing a heck of a
job trying to sabotage the safety of theirs or someone else's children. These
children need to have a safe voice, and if facts start to come out, then these
parents could lose "ownership" of these children. Children will adapt to a
loving family, we have a family in our ward with six adopted children, their
last one was six when they got him, he is so happy. I am sorry for the mothers
to be separated from their children, but if they didn't protect them, they do
not deserve to keep those children. People do not understand that there is a
lot of twisted and cruel things that this group will do, ask the father's who
were kicked out and their wives and children were taken away from them.
There are rules CPS has to go by. They're following the rules and you say
they're wrong. WRONG, you're wrong. To Where Is Truth? It's where
you find it as you amply have demonstrated. Don't Mess with Texas is on all the
garbage cans for a reason. Don't come here with your mess. The FLDS brought a
mess. These people are their own worst enemies, Napoleon. Now the courts will
have to sort out what they neglected to do. Is that so hard to understand?
That's the way it's supposed to be done. Hard, wasn't it?CPS is doing it the correct way. Some people on here need to get a reality
The only thing wrong here is the systematice abuse and rape of young girls and
disowning and neglecting young boys.
I just wonder - do you have MORE facts about this case than the rest of us who
only know what we hear on TV or read in the paper? I just wonder how many facts
you have that even the "govt officials" don't have that could make you KNOW that
they are so wrong.I certainly don't think all of the facts are being given
If the Texas officials suspect that the children are not safe with the men at
the ranch, why didn't they remove the men instead of the mothers and
Texas authorities did absolutely the right thing to protect the children abuse.
To say that Texas authorities "orchestrated" 13-16 y/o girls to be pregnant
and/or mothers in forced marriages is beyond ludicrous. It's about time someone
did something to stop the abuse.
So the right thing to do would be do nothing while children are being sexually
abused by 50-plus-year-old men? Unbelievable. This isn't about religion. This
isn't about polygamy. It's about rampant child abuse. Lord willing, those
children will never have to go back.
My son was abused while in someone elses care. I took him to an interview with
CPS. They took him to a room without me. This is the best way to get the real
story out of children. My son would have been guarded with his story even in my
presence. It was difficult for me to just wait, but I did. I was not under
investigation, I had already been cleared.This seperation from home
and family is normal and has been done for years.
The truth will be told. "Don't Mess With Texas" You're too big for your
boots! Remember Texas - Pride Goeth Before the Fall. Heaven help the people of
the United States who have turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the truth. From
Napoleon Hill "No accurate thinker will judge another person by that which the
other person's enemies say about him."
WRONG....you are sooooo right.
These govt officials have no idea how wrong they are because they are sure
they're right. You can justify almost anything to protect the children but they
are just wrong to go to extreme measures so they can get out of the children the
kind of responses they are looking for. This is just Wrong.