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Texas authorities move children while dozens of attorneys meet with judge
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Common Logic | 2:49 p.m. April 14, 2008
Presenting a court case in defense of FLDS parents and children would logically
begin by determining parentage. A mother and a father with a valid marriage
certificate for themselves and a valid birth certificate for the child should
have legal standing as parents if no abuse is claimed or suspected.
All other children should be treated as abandoned and become wards of the state. Mothers who were impregnated under legal age and who refuse to identify the father (physical sire) of their child (or children) in order to protect him from criminal charges, may need counseling before they resume parenting roles.
All other children should be treated as abandoned and become wards of the state. Mothers who were impregnated under legal age and who refuse to identify the father (physical sire) of their child (or children) in order to protect him from criminal charges, may need counseling before they resume parenting roles.
WaCk E | 2:54 p.m. April 14, 2008
Now the government should goto all the low income projects around the US and rip
there kids away from them!! All we have to do is to have ONE kid call the cops
for help and call in the SWAT TEAM!! save all the would be drug dealers and gang
bangers!
Comments continue below
Making more sense | 3:06 p.m. April 14, 2008
Would it not have made more sense to remove the adult males, and let the
children stay in their own homes? Cheaper too. I think Texas may be answering
to the USSC on this one, and pretty soon, at that.
stephen blaser | 3:15 p.m. April 14, 2008
I have look on and wondered where all the civil rights people have been during
the time this has been going on. I thought that the ACLU might have been out of
the country while this was going on.. We all know that if these parents would
have been black or brown or purple in color that the ACLU would have been going
crazy by now.. How can a cell phone call from one person, that hasn't been
found yet, cause the civil rights of all these people to be taken away. It
seems like we are back in the 1930's again and we all are living in
Hitler's Germany
John | 3:17 p.m. April 14, 2008
Thank you Douglas.
Where is the outrage? 416 children are yanked from their homes. They and their mothers are held incommunicado. If there are broken laws, convict and punish the guilty. But why is this entire community being punished? Doesn't the law required that a parent be found guilty of neglect or abuse in order to remove that parent's child?
Is it automatically considered "abusive" to associate with a group that others find distasteful? Is it automatically considered "abusive" to associate with a person who may have engaged in underage sex?
Where is the outrage? 416 children are yanked from their homes. They and their mothers are held incommunicado. If there are broken laws, convict and punish the guilty. But why is this entire community being punished? Doesn't the law required that a parent be found guilty of neglect or abuse in order to remove that parent's child?
Is it automatically considered "abusive" to associate with a group that others find distasteful? Is it automatically considered "abusive" to associate with a person who may have engaged in underage sex?
? Common Logic | 3:31 p.m. April 14, 2008
Extending your thoughts - should the government look into all children where the
parents do not have a valid marriage certificate? Where do you suppose this
would lead?
Timothy-Allen Albertson | 4:05 p.m. April 14, 2008
Tom Green Courthouse? My, my!!!
Douglas | 4:12 p.m. April 14, 2008
How is the State going to prove that the teenager became pregnant in Texas?
No crime unless the state proves it occured in the prosecuting jurisdiction. I
suspect the mothers are resiting talking to the interogators, although I am
certain we will see no child unclaimed when the custody proceedings get
underway. Since in 2005 a 14 year old in Texas could lawfully marry and bear
children, age at conception is also an issue.
Thomas Jefferson | 4:06 p.m. April 14, 2008
What I would like to know is what judical policy or procedure manual is Texas
following. This is unprecedented. As such, they have no choice but to make
things up as they go along. How does a judge know when and who these kids can
talk to or visit. How is it that we effectively assume that even the mothers
cannot be allowed access to they're own children. No one has made any
allegations against a mother yet but no matter 'no can do'. Texas is
in unchartered territory and making up the judicial rules as they go has a
horrible constitutional track record. Want to bet the US Supreme Court gets a
number of cases out of this mess.
enough of this | 4:18 p.m. April 14, 2008
I am LDS and while I don't agree with the FLDS stance on polygamy it seems
to me that this has gotten so out of hand that it is ridiculous! To take
children away and to not let mothers see or talk to their children breaks my
heart. I am a mother and I would be so distraught over not being able to be a
mother to my child when he/she needed me. There could be abuse going on and if
that is the case remove those children but an entire community? Come on if this
isn't religious persecution I don't know what is.
At first I was glad they took the kids but now it seems that the government has violated every right that these people have! Let them go home and do this the right way if they are being abused look at each case individually and go from there.
At first I was glad they took the kids but now it seems that the government has violated every right that these people have! Let them go home and do this the right way if they are being abused look at each case individually and go from there.
Douglas | 4:39 p.m. April 14, 2008
The ACLU is absent because of the child abuse allegation. Some people
deserve killing, but no child deserves rape, the most socially repugnant crime
and affront to morality in our Country. Raise child abuse/rape up the flagpole
and everyone salutes. Child molesters have a short life-span in prison, being
despised by even the most devious of violent criminals.
As such, it appears that the ACLU is sitting on their hands, petrified to act in case some really nasty facts indicating child abuse are unearthed. While they have taken unpopular positions in the past, it seems that being viewed as siding with the child molesters is too much for them. The child protective services people have played this card to the max, but soon they will have to prove their sweeping allegations on a case by case basis, without using religious affiliation as their sole factual support of parental unfitness.
As such, it appears that the ACLU is sitting on their hands, petrified to act in case some really nasty facts indicating child abuse are unearthed. While they have taken unpopular positions in the past, it seems that being viewed as siding with the child molesters is too much for them. The child protective services people have played this card to the max, but soon they will have to prove their sweeping allegations on a case by case basis, without using religious affiliation as their sole factual support of parental unfitness.
ACLU? | 4:39 p.m. April 14, 2008
Seriously, where is the ACLU on this one? The ACLU is really showing its true
colors....
Dale Osborn | 4:45 p.m. April 14, 2008
I can`t believe some people are concerned so much about decent people trying to
separate themselves from a world that teaches...It`s ok to drink booze smoke
drugs...have teen mothers that cost us for years, let lude and lascivious
behavior be a matter of fashion..... These people take care of their own
problems and do not ask for help...What you have done is wrong..You have
condemned innocent people.
Some states have allowed teen marriage since 1812..BIBLE men had many wives and some places still have this. You want to go after corruption and sin??..Start at home...At church...Your own heart!!
Some states have allowed teen marriage since 1812..BIBLE men had many wives and some places still have this. You want to go after corruption and sin??..Start at home...At church...Your own heart!!
Concerned | 4:58 p.m. April 14, 2008
Our state DOES have a right to intervene whenever there is suspected abuse and
neglect of underaged children! Some of these children are not even sure who
their biological parents are! These children are naming multiple mothers, for
goodness sakes! Do you know who your mother is? I suspect you do and probably
who your father is also! These children have a right to know who their parents
are at the very least! This is just one of the problems that I see with this
group of people who have separated themselves from mainstream society. Anytime
a group of people cuts itself off from mainstream society, we all should be
asking what is going on behind this need to be isolated. When the stronger are
controlling the weaker, something is not right!
Hugh McBryde | 5:19 p.m. April 14, 2008
In a country where the principle is innocent, until proven guilty, why would the
mothers have to prove anything? They are charged with no crimes. Why
can't the simply leave with the children that call them Mommy? Certainly
enough people we all agree to be their neighbors are there, no one is disputing
which child belongs to which mother, I am sure.
Anonymous | 5:26 p.m. April 14, 2008
All of you are pathetic. These people are not being punished for their
religion, abiet it is a cult and not a religion. They just call it a religion
to justify what they do. These people are breaking the law, i.e. old people
marrying underage girls. They only marry them spiritually because they know
they can't marry them legally. That is rape - statutory RAPE. Regardless
of what religion/cult you belong to, if the male is over a certain age and the
female is under a certain age it is rape regardless of consent. And it should
be. The FLDS do everything possible to skirt the law. It is disgusting. If
they can't be faithful to one wife, at least they should be unfaithful with
other adults and not children. I fail to understand why everyone is defending
them. They are disgusting. It makes me sick to think of these older men having
sex with girls that are under the age of 16. They are just "babies"
themselves and certainly not mature enough to be a mother.
Louisa | 5:42 p.m. April 14, 2008
Polygamy is clearly illegal in this country. Frankly, in my opinion the State of
Texas is simply being responsible and effective, i.e. aggressively investigating
in order to protect the right of its littlest and most defenseless citizens to
grow up in an environment secure from child sexual abuse, child abuse and
prearranged underage polygamous marriages. If abuses are not established in
these cases, has any harm really been done through aggressive investigation? No.
This is a situation where children deserve protection and I for one am grateful
that the authorities in Texas are being responsible and looking out for the best
interest of the children.
Amazed | 6:31 p.m. April 14, 2008
Religious freedom? Do the women and children in Mormon fundamentalism have
religious freedom? No. They are coerced into polygyny, sharing a husband with
many wives, forced pregnancy and mandatory motherhood amounting to slavery --
all by religious beliefs that are dictated to them by men who are making it up
as they go along.
Do the women and children have normal access to education, safety, services like other US citizens? No. They are isolated and deprived of normal rights.
Do the women and children have any options or support for pursuing education and training and careers and paychecks, and a life they choose? No. They are coerced into a pioneer lifestyle.
How can anyone call this religious freedom? This is not about freedom of religious speech or belief--this is about BEHAVIOR or inflicting your relgious beliefs and practices upon others, not to mention bondage, pregnancy, motherhood, abuse, and female and child slavery.
On top of these abuses, are rape, child abuse, incest, forced labor, mind control, and complete exploitation of bodies, minds and lives. This is about control, of others, not about freedom of any kind.
Do the women and children have normal access to education, safety, services like other US citizens? No. They are isolated and deprived of normal rights.
Do the women and children have any options or support for pursuing education and training and careers and paychecks, and a life they choose? No. They are coerced into a pioneer lifestyle.
How can anyone call this religious freedom? This is not about freedom of religious speech or belief--this is about BEHAVIOR or inflicting your relgious beliefs and practices upon others, not to mention bondage, pregnancy, motherhood, abuse, and female and child slavery.
On top of these abuses, are rape, child abuse, incest, forced labor, mind control, and complete exploitation of bodies, minds and lives. This is about control, of others, not about freedom of any kind.
anonymous | 6:32 p.m. April 14, 2008
Well, they do everything big in Texas - football, barbeques, bigotry,
...it's no suprise.
Annonymous | 6:35 p.m. April 14, 2008
The FLDS is a cult and should be treated as one. I agree that Polygamy is not
only disgusting, but wrong and so are the people that follow this so called
religion. The children are better off where they are than staying at a compound
that might eventually end up like the Waco standoff.
ACLU true colors | 7:10 p.m. April 14, 2008
You folks don't seem to understand the ACLU's role in America.
They are a partisan far left advocacy group.
They don't have a dog in this fight.
They are a partisan far left advocacy group.
They don't have a dog in this fight.
Far from Utah | 7:19 p.m. April 14, 2008
When the media sways its readers to believe, it is time for the readers to find
the real truth. I remember a few years ago a Utah teenager was kidnapped by a
stranger and the stranger made her either a spiritual wife or spiritual
daughter. Utah stood up and was proud of how the law enforcement and judicial
system handled the case. It was sad to think what that stranger had done to
that child.
The FLDS men are not strangers to their victims of teenage spiritual wives. The women and men have allowed abuse of children to continue.
It is the government's responsibility to protect those that cannot protect themselves. That is what the State of Texas has done.
The FLDS men are not strangers to their victims of teenage spiritual wives. The women and men have allowed abuse of children to continue.
It is the government's responsibility to protect those that cannot protect themselves. That is what the State of Texas has done.
chemist | 7:34 p.m. April 14, 2008
The LDS church practiced polyamy in the 1800s. The federal govenment prosecuted
and persucuted them until they stopped that practice. I hope the states
persecute and prosecute the FLDS and other polygamy groups until they either
stop the practice or are destroyed as a church, cult, whatever. Their finances
should also be examined.
Chrissy Winn | 7:46 p.m. April 14, 2008
Polygamy is not the issue in this case. Child abuse is the issue. We cannot
allow people to sway the focus from abuse to polygamy. Forced marriage,underage
marriage, sexual or physical abuse these are the issues.
This is not about FLDS it is about practices within this community by individuals. The INDIVIDUALS should be held responsible. If the mothers knowingly failed to protect their children then they too should be held responsible.
A mass court hearing is ridiculous. Have we forgotten due process. This reminds me of the Japanese internment after Pearl Harbor. If one FLDS member did it they must all do it. Americans should be standing up and shouting about the blatant disregard for civil rights.
Hardened criminal, mass murderers and the unibomber received due process. How could anyone know what happened in a persons home without allowing each individual home to express their story.
Wake up you self righteous judgemental people. I'm not FLDS but I can see their cry for fair treatment and I must agree. Even Polygamists have a right to our constitutionally protected rights.
May the lord bless those poor mothers and children and give them strength and comfort in their time of need.
This is not about FLDS it is about practices within this community by individuals. The INDIVIDUALS should be held responsible. If the mothers knowingly failed to protect their children then they too should be held responsible.
A mass court hearing is ridiculous. Have we forgotten due process. This reminds me of the Japanese internment after Pearl Harbor. If one FLDS member did it they must all do it. Americans should be standing up and shouting about the blatant disregard for civil rights.
Hardened criminal, mass murderers and the unibomber received due process. How could anyone know what happened in a persons home without allowing each individual home to express their story.
Wake up you self righteous judgemental people. I'm not FLDS but I can see their cry for fair treatment and I must agree. Even Polygamists have a right to our constitutionally protected rights.
May the lord bless those poor mothers and children and give them strength and comfort in their time of need.
OWN BACK YARD | 7:51 p.m. April 14, 2008
So, here in Utah among the predominant religion we hear of a lot of sexual
abuse of children in their own homes, pregnancy by incest, mind control. Much
older men with "authority" talking about masturbation with 12 year old
girls behind closed doors, and yes even the occasional Bishop found guilty of
sexually abusing a girl in his congregation. Read about the lawsuits if this
seems unbelievable. Is this Texas Raid a religious issue? If it is not, then why
the whole entire round-up? Is it time for the State of Utah to round up all
women and child members and remove them to make shift shelters until the law can
sort through who is being abused and who is not.This is a case by case issue.
Will this be the "phone call heard round the world?" Of course there
will not be birth certificates for all of these children. Many are home births
without State documemtation. Why are the cell phones being taken away? I commend
the strength and self restraint which the men and boys displayed as they have
not used force. I hope the Amish way of life is not the next to be attacked.
Bob | 7:53 p.m. April 14, 2008
I note that the FLDS moms are only calling Utah newspapers. No such contact is
being reported from Texas papers. How 'bout the DNews not sensationalize
this thing based on only cell phone calls from media-desperate moms?
Texas has capable family services professionals, district attorneys, and law enforcement. There is more to this action than is being reported. Keep digging and don't only report the cell phone chats.
Texas has capable family services professionals, district attorneys, and law enforcement. There is more to this action than is being reported. Keep digging and don't only report the cell phone chats.
Far from Utah too | 8:04 p.m. April 14, 2008
The State of Texas has little regard for these women and children. Instead the
state has used a specific allegation of abuse as a pretext to attack an entire
group simply because they have an alternative family, social and economic
system. The problem with allowing the government to intervene in the affairs of
others without due process is that everyone becomes vulnerable to the whims of
the state. If this is allowed to stand, it will be a set back to all our civil
liberties; as such, it should be of significant interest to the ACLU.
Stephanie | 8:23 p.m. April 14, 2008
Okay everybody that as mad and outraged by this as I am, what the heck are we
going to do about it? I am like Douglas, I cannot concentrate on anything
because I am constantly thinking about this awful violation of rights that is
occurring and it is hundreds of miles away from me. I feel powerless to make a
difference but I want to do something to help these poor people be treated
fairly. Posting this message leaves me feeling like I have done nothing. I
wrote to the Governor of Texas, I begged the Texas ACLU to step in, etc., but
nothing is making me feel like I am doing something worthwhile to help these
mothers stay with their children. I am seriously asking for ideas about what I
can do and, if you are of the same mind, what WE can do because I want to be
able to do something of worth to benefit these people. I will check back for
responses. If you don't agree with me I really don't care what you
have to say about how these people are getting what they deserve--EVERYONE
deserves the protection of the law and due process.
Douglas | 8:36 p.m. April 14, 2008
I know this may come as a shock to many FSB's (fundamental southern
baptists), etc - but if all these women and children are all slaves, oppressed,
abused, subject to rape, or otherwise unhappy with their way of life, why have
none of them raised their hand to the investigators and said "I want
out." While I imagine most FSB's still say they are brainwashed, at
what point will a difference of religious preference be other than brainwashing
in the FSB mind? Scream polygamy, forced marriage, etc all you want, but the
only victim and perpetrator identified turned out to be bogus. Meanwhile the
FSB's justify this Constitutional outrage by saying rapists have no rights.
Now they just need to find the rapist.
re: Stephanie | 8:43 p.m. April 14, 2008
"EVERYONE deserves the protection of the law and due process"
that is what the children are finally getting
let the process play out
that is what the children are finally getting
let the process play out
Angelo Frank | 9:20 p.m. April 14, 2008
It's obvious the Deseret News is the propaganda outlet for the FLDS. All
these slanted articles with claims of neglect and so called rights abuses by the
Texas authorities are without merit. These children were rescued from the
clutches of a cruel, abusive cult known as the FLDS, run by a group of
pedophiles. This is a proven fact and neither the Deseret News nor the other
FLDS sympathizers can change that. There is no religious subversion on the part
of the Texas authorities and claims of such are just more well planned diverions
from the truth of the matter. Thank God that my fellow Texans are so kindhearted
and took action to halt this abusive cult in it's tracks. Well done DPS and
CPS. Kudos to all those volunteers also.
wrz | 9:25 p.m. April 14, 2008
>>These children are naming multiple mothers, for goodness sakes! Do you
know who your mother is? I suspect you do and probably who your father is also!
These children have a right to know who their parents are at the very
least!<<
Living in a polygamist community, who ones biological mother is, is mostly immaterial. All the wives are their "mother."
You may have a different view of the importance of maternal identity. That's your privilege.
Living in a polygamist community, who ones biological mother is, is mostly immaterial. All the wives are their "mother."
You may have a different view of the importance of maternal identity. That's your privilege.
Bayou Vol | 9:33 p.m. April 14, 2008
They may have been rescued, but it must be done constitutionally. This is not a
question of the activities that went on in the sect, many of which are
abhorrent. This is a blatant violation of the civil rights of the citizens that
claim affiliation with this sect. The disregard for the fifth and fourteenth
amendments shown by TX law enforcement is an embarrassment to the rule of law
and the thousands of officers faithful to the constitution each day. Please
understand that it is not a defense of child abuse, brainwashing, rape, incest,
or any other vile and evil practice. The outrage stems from the basic rights we
all enjoy, guilty or not, which are being blatantly trodden under by TX
officials who then try and create justification on the backside.
suzie | 9:50 p.m. April 14, 2008
stephanie, I have also emailed the gov. of Texas telling him how horrible this
is not only for the FLDS but for everyone who has any kind of religion. I agree
totally with what you had to say and I like you would like to help these people.
Let me know what I can do. And to all who feel the same as I THANK YOU for your
support and comments in behalf of these people. Every comment helps.
Sunny | 10:21 p.m. April 14, 2008
I think, from reports of women who've escaped, we've established this
is a brainwasing cult, that uses religion as a way to continue the molestation
of young girls. The fact that some of these kids can't even tell the
officials who there parents are is horrible.
Texas authorities are winging it, and mistakes will probably be made here, but I don't think theres a rule book written for this kind of mass abuse. Can you imagine being a mother of 3 at 18 yrs of age? I sure can't
They can't prove their relationships to these children, they can't be allowed to see them. Listen, has it occured to all of you who feel so bad, that through no fault of their own, the Mom's are perpetuating the problem here. This is going to be difficult to deal with, but it needs to be done.
Forcing young girls into marriage is bad enough, but if just a quarter of the other reported abuses are true, then these poor kids are going to be MUCH better off out of that hell.
Texas authorities are winging it, and mistakes will probably be made here, but I don't think theres a rule book written for this kind of mass abuse. Can you imagine being a mother of 3 at 18 yrs of age? I sure can't
They can't prove their relationships to these children, they can't be allowed to see them. Listen, has it occured to all of you who feel so bad, that through no fault of their own, the Mom's are perpetuating the problem here. This is going to be difficult to deal with, but it needs to be done.
Forcing young girls into marriage is bad enough, but if just a quarter of the other reported abuses are true, then these poor kids are going to be MUCH better off out of that hell.
VegasBaby | 10:50 p.m. April 14, 2008
It will be an interesting day on Thursday. I wonder how many of the biological
fathers will step forward to claim their children.
Matt in Tucson | 10:45 p.m. April 14, 2008
First, the rumor was that the FLDS didn't allow their ladies to have cell
phones or access to the outside world. Then, the state authorities said the
prisoners did not want to talk to the media. But, come to find out, not only
did they want to talk the media, but they used cell phones to do it, and sent
pictures to boot. This not only casts doubt on the accuracy of the authorities,
but also the books of "escaped" wives who said such things were
forbidden.
Second, the telephone calls from the "16 year old" mentioned a specific perpetrator, armed guards at the compounds, "outsiders," and was repeated to Arizona authorities. It turns out that accused perpetrator was in Arizona under the watch of his probation officer, there were no armed guards at the compound, the FLDS use the term "gentiles," and Arizona authorities found nothing of merit in the phone calls. So, once again the officials lose credibility, and likely endanger any case against the real perpetrators they are after.
So, can anyone tell me why the officials should be trusted on other things they have said? Is there really any legal evidence?
Second, the telephone calls from the "16 year old" mentioned a specific perpetrator, armed guards at the compounds, "outsiders," and was repeated to Arizona authorities. It turns out that accused perpetrator was in Arizona under the watch of his probation officer, there were no armed guards at the compound, the FLDS use the term "gentiles," and Arizona authorities found nothing of merit in the phone calls. So, once again the officials lose credibility, and likely endanger any case against the real perpetrators they are after.
So, can anyone tell me why the officials should be trusted on other things they have said? Is there really any legal evidence?
A Dooley | 10:50 p.m. April 14, 2008
I hope that these children can be saved from the future inside the FLDS.
Children should be loved and adored. Not traded off as sex slaves for some
middle aged man to act out his sick fantasies with. This is America not some
third world country. These women need some serious help and are obviously
suffering from low self esteem amognst many other issues I am sure. I just hope
that its not to late to save these people from themselves and maybe break the
cycle of abuse. The Constitution is set up to protect people and I am glad TX
stepped up and did something about it.
Bob - the log in your own eye | 10:57 p.m. April 14, 2008
While I do NOT support any plural marriage format, I have heard many comments
decrying Morman men with many wives, and young wives at that. Odd that in all
jurisdictions in the United States, a man may marry as many women as he may talk
into the arrangement - with "'Til death do you part." in the vows
- so long as it's one at a time. You know - serial monogamy.
I feel it necessary to point out that several states permit marriage at 16. No hue and cry there, either.
Methinks I hear hypocrites at large! As a "Child of the '60's," I remember communal living, group marriage, and "free love" - all tolerated by this society as "freedom of expression."
While none of those things are acceptable in my personal moral code, neither is it acceptable to tell others how - or what - they must worship. So long as marriage or sex is not forced, no one else - state, federal, or any other power under Heaven - has a dog in this hunt. Abuse must be proven, not just alleged.
Remember, sex not only sells, it can be used to buy votes.
Keep your agency.
I feel it necessary to point out that several states permit marriage at 16. No hue and cry there, either.
Methinks I hear hypocrites at large! As a "Child of the '60's," I remember communal living, group marriage, and "free love" - all tolerated by this society as "freedom of expression."
While none of those things are acceptable in my personal moral code, neither is it acceptable to tell others how - or what - they must worship. So long as marriage or sex is not forced, no one else - state, federal, or any other power under Heaven - has a dog in this hunt. Abuse must be proven, not just alleged.
Remember, sex not only sells, it can be used to buy votes.
Keep your agency.
Roger and Helen | 11:01 p.m. April 14, 2008
We're sitting her in California, reading all of these comments. Thank you,
D.N., for having at least attempted to share some of the views of the victims of
this outrageous affront to the rule of law. If there is clear evidence of
specific child abuse, rape, or whatever, then by all means prosecute! But
nothing can justify rounding up all these women and children and creating a
Texas version of Gitmo. And when they try to tell their story, their cell
phones are confiscated? Something stinks in the state of Texas. Oh, one more
thing--what's up with all those Baptist buses that were used to transport
these prisoners? Is that the Texan verion of separation of Church and State?
Adam | 11:08 p.m. April 14, 2008
To Douglas: If you are an attorney in Utah interested in a similar case here in
this state, please let me know with a way to contact you.
I too have difficulty not thinking of these children in how they have truly been abused, BY THE STATE OF TEXAS. I find that these authorities, and many posting comments fail to understand the Golden Rule as well as "innocent until proven guilty".
I do not know that there has not been abuse of children, of which I would find unacceptable. But how many of you that have condemned these people KNOW that there has been abuse? And do you know it is attributable to all the parents that have had their children taken?
Such actions in a "free" country are inexcusable. To deny the basic associations of family on an anonymous accusation is horrific at best.
If this were anything above board, the state of Texas would allow total access to everyone involved. Instead they seek to squelch the truth in every way possible so they can manipulate public opinion.
When they can excercise tyranny against the unpopular with impunity, you can be sure others will follow. You may be next.
I too have difficulty not thinking of these children in how they have truly been abused, BY THE STATE OF TEXAS. I find that these authorities, and many posting comments fail to understand the Golden Rule as well as "innocent until proven guilty".
I do not know that there has not been abuse of children, of which I would find unacceptable. But how many of you that have condemned these people KNOW that there has been abuse? And do you know it is attributable to all the parents that have had their children taken?
Such actions in a "free" country are inexcusable. To deny the basic associations of family on an anonymous accusation is horrific at best.
If this were anything above board, the state of Texas would allow total access to everyone involved. Instead they seek to squelch the truth in every way possible so they can manipulate public opinion.
When they can excercise tyranny against the unpopular with impunity, you can be sure others will follow. You may be next.
Amazed | 11:04 p.m. April 14, 2008
I am amazed at those who would return the children to a potentially dangerous
community in the name of due process. Since when should we assume law
enforcement releases all the facts to the media before the trial.
Numerous officials including the judge feel they are acting in the best interest of these children.
Listening to the "mothers" of the children only provides one biased point of view. I will respect the law enforcement officers on this one, and let them complete their investigation, before I get too riled.
Numerous officials including the judge feel they are acting in the best interest of these children.
Listening to the "mothers" of the children only provides one biased point of view. I will respect the law enforcement officers on this one, and let them complete their investigation, before I get too riled.
Douglas | 11:10 p.m. April 14, 2008
Took the women and kids away to get to "the truth". No luck. Took
the cell phones away from the moms to get to "the truth". No luck.
Took the moms away from the kids to get to "the truth". The
increasing desperation exhibited by CPS is truly alarming, especially since the
CPS has the benefit of full hindsight as to how tenuous their removal case
is.
And the authorities complain about isolation and brainwashing, like the public at large is too dense to recognize their same behavior, the big difference being that all American parents have the right to raise their children under the religion of their choice.
Excuse me for completly ignoring any concern for alleged child neglect or abuse issues, the wholesale rape of our Constitution is the only really clear fact I have seen so far, and the degree to which these American's rights have been trampled is simply unprecidented in modern times. And the travesty becomes more egregious every day it seems, while the silence from CPS becomes more blaring. The Cyanide document turns out to be part of a first aid manual, and still no facts of abuse???
And the authorities complain about isolation and brainwashing, like the public at large is too dense to recognize their same behavior, the big difference being that all American parents have the right to raise their children under the religion of their choice.
Excuse me for completly ignoring any concern for alleged child neglect or abuse issues, the wholesale rape of our Constitution is the only really clear fact I have seen so far, and the degree to which these American's rights have been trampled is simply unprecidented in modern times. And the travesty becomes more egregious every day it seems, while the silence from CPS becomes more blaring. The Cyanide document turns out to be part of a first aid manual, and still no facts of abuse???
Another thought from Bob | 11:13 p.m. April 14, 2008
If the parents are found guilty of abuse in this case, will they be branded as
sexual offenders?
How odd that such a finding could be made in regard to a person following dictates of conscience while practicing his religion.
Beware! It may soon be a "Hate Crime," or "Abuse" to proclaim one's religious beliefs.
How odd that such a finding could be made in regard to a person following dictates of conscience while practicing his religion.
Beware! It may soon be a "Hate Crime," or "Abuse" to proclaim one's religious beliefs.
we know | 11:16 p.m. April 14, 2008
Check out the welfare that these people get at most levels of government.
They have more money than we will ever know and still get wellfare because they
have so many children and each mother gets to claim what they want even though
there is only one father. Each wife can claim a family with the same dad.
Bring the the money on!!! We lie in St. George and if you feel sorry for the
FLDS, come and live with us, and see for yourselves.
bleed the beast | 11:34 p.m. April 14, 2008
Would love to see the baby daddys step up and claim their offspring, then they
could go straight to jail for welfare fraud. I have not one iota of sympathy for
the adults in this "religion". They use and abuse their children then
cry foul when the state stops them. Too bad, boo hoo. Those kids are better off
in state custody
Bob yer wrong | 11:31 p.m. April 14, 2008
Bob/ The FLDS "belief" that it is ok to sexually assault young girls
is as far from religion then anything can be. Try again pal.
Erin | 11:39 p.m. April 14, 2008
I think the families should be restored with conditions. All the children
should be required to attend public schools until they complete high school.
And no girls should be allowed to marry (spiritually or otherwise) until the
legal age in Texas. And, people must be allowed to leave if/when they choose to
do so. If the families all comply, this is at least the best first step to
helping these people understand that they can be safe outside their compound,
that not all "gentiles" are evil or out to hurt them. And that they
have the right to direct their own lives.
No one wins the way it's being done now. The CPS is not prepared to deal with children on this large scale and the forced separation may be causing the children more harm than good.
Hopefully by requiring public education, it will be enough exposure to life outside their walls to help equip them all with the abilities to live a different way if they choose to do so.
No one wins the way it's being done now. The CPS is not prepared to deal with children on this large scale and the forced separation may be causing the children more harm than good.
Hopefully by requiring public education, it will be enough exposure to life outside their walls to help equip them all with the abilities to live a different way if they choose to do so.
Khary Sudan | 11:52 p.m. April 14, 2008
I have heard a lot of allegations from various Texas state agencies. I have
heard or seen no proof or evidence to support the allegations. I have seen small
children separated from their mothers, the mother cell phones confiscated and
communication with the media and others in the outside world cutoff. Whats going
on? Looks like another Crook Creek to me.
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I find it hard to concentrate running my law office knowing that anywhere in our country this wholesale trampling of our Constitution is occuring. I sit in shock, reading these blogs, waiting on our government to wake up, acknowledge its mistakes, return the kids and start over on their investigation. Shame on the ACLU for their absence.