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Shurtleff connects the FLDS dots
47 comments | Read story
brent | 1:02 a.m. April 14, 2008
I'm glad Shurtleff isn't doing anything like they are in Texas. What a
perfect example of religious intolerance we are witnessing. Do we now take the
kids away from evangelicals so they can't raise the children to hate those
who think differently than themselves? Where do we stop? Do you have to fit into
mainstream religion to have freedom of religion now? It is a sad day for
America...Who's next?
Wondering in Tennessee | 6:08 a.m. April 14, 2008
why is polygamy not considered bigamy.......??????
why is there so much emplasis on minor infractions in childcare, but huge unlawful practices are ignored or at best shuffled to the back burner because it is more difficult to prosecute or handle????
A cancer keeps growing IF you don't cut it clean out.
People assume they can continue abuses when so little strict enforcement.
There are women in jail for life for shop lifting a purse........why....??? Easier to crack down.
People as a whole need to support heavier proscecution and enforcement....
We all fuss about those who break laws...
but fuss about the cost to keep them enforced.
why is there so much emplasis on minor infractions in childcare, but huge unlawful practices are ignored or at best shuffled to the back burner because it is more difficult to prosecute or handle????
A cancer keeps growing IF you don't cut it clean out.
People assume they can continue abuses when so little strict enforcement.
There are women in jail for life for shop lifting a purse........why....??? Easier to crack down.
People as a whole need to support heavier proscecution and enforcement....
We all fuss about those who break laws...
but fuss about the cost to keep them enforced.
leroy | 6:16 a.m. April 14, 2008
The AG says that the law is being broken concerning polygamy, but he won't
act.
Hmmmmmm.
No wait. He said it was not clear if polygamy was illegal.
Hmmmmmmm.
No wait. He said that the good citizens of the state would have to take care of the kids, etc., like Texas is doing. Costs too much.
Hmmmmmm.
I would say that Utah needs a new Attorney General.
Hmmmmmm.
No wait. He said it was not clear if polygamy was illegal.
Hmmmmmmm.
No wait. He said that the good citizens of the state would have to take care of the kids, etc., like Texas is doing. Costs too much.
Hmmmmmm.
I would say that Utah needs a new Attorney General.
Comments continue below
address root problem | 6:44 a.m. April 14, 2008
Focusing on child abuse and fraud but not addressing the underlying problem
means Utah will be forever treating symptoms but never going for a cure.
It is a mistake to ignore illegal polygamy. It is living polygamy outside the law that renders groups like FLDS clannish and closed to outsiders. That circumstance leaves the children isolated and at the mercy of the adults. Any polygamous cult living outside the law is inevitably going to be an abusive environment for the children, the only question is the degree of abuse.
Shurtleff must quit tiptoeing around the fact that POLYGAMY IS ILLEGAL. He should not shirk from enforcing the laws.
It is a mistake to ignore illegal polygamy. It is living polygamy outside the law that renders groups like FLDS clannish and closed to outsiders. That circumstance leaves the children isolated and at the mercy of the adults. Any polygamous cult living outside the law is inevitably going to be an abusive environment for the children, the only question is the degree of abuse.
Shurtleff must quit tiptoeing around the fact that POLYGAMY IS ILLEGAL. He should not shirk from enforcing the laws.
Dutchman | 8:25 a.m. April 14, 2008
Shurtleff is right and he has legal issues on his side. The US Supreme Court
has already ruled that what consenting adults do in private is their own
business. Child abuse is another matter and Utah goes at it one case at a time.
Utah has passed Jessica's law which mandates 25 years to life in prison
for the rape or serious sexual assault of a child. This is tough stuff patterned
after Florida's law. The right course is to go after child abuse where it
occurs not after a whole lifestyle. As soon as Texas learned that child sex
abuse occurred in other religious schools and churches why wasn't there a
big round up of other religious people. This is selective prosecution at its
worse. Most of these kids will get sent back to their polygamous parents as
happened after the Short Creek raid in 1953.
Leroy is right | 8:33 a.m. April 14, 2008
It's time to put some new none Mormon leadership in positions of authority
in Utah that will enforce the law and protect helpless woman and children.
suzie | 8:39 a.m. April 14, 2008
Go Brent!! I totally agree!!! couldn't have been better said!!!
suzie | 8:43 a.m. April 14, 2008
I totally agree! It couldn't have been better said!!
Todd | 9:57 a.m. April 14, 2008
Shurtleff is going to come out of this whole thing vindicated. It will only be
a matter of time. The lessons of history (Short Creek raid) taught him that it
is unwise to target an entire community; that it only strengthens their sense of
victimization and turns them further inward. The prosecution of Warren Jeffs
was the right direction. Demonstrate to the followers that the leadership of
the faith was not what they believed. Put pressure on the top to lead their
members against underage marriage and other abuses.
Texas authorities' blunder will undo the good Shurtleff has done. The only direction for them to go now is to place all of these children into foster care. Are we ready to see families ripped apart in that way? Texas authorities are beginning to see what a mess they've stepped into. That's a single small community. There is no way that Utah and Arizona's AGs could do more.
Texas authorities' blunder will undo the good Shurtleff has done. The only direction for them to go now is to place all of these children into foster care. Are we ready to see families ripped apart in that way? Texas authorities are beginning to see what a mess they've stepped into. That's a single small community. There is no way that Utah and Arizona's AGs could do more.
Matt in Tucson | 9:58 a.m. April 14, 2008
What if YFZ consisted of Muslims, Blacks, or Latinos? What if 400 of their
children had been forcibly removed based on a phone call that contained false
accusations? What would the media reports have been like?
Any way you slice it, the Texas raid did violate the constitutional rights of the parents, a fact which was hinted at by Utah's AG in this article. Why don't officials raid the barrios and projects where there is much worse child abuse, teen pregnancy, and welfare fraud?
Any way you slice it, the Texas raid did violate the constitutional rights of the parents, a fact which was hinted at by Utah's AG in this article. Why don't officials raid the barrios and projects where there is much worse child abuse, teen pregnancy, and welfare fraud?
Observation | 10:04 a.m. April 14, 2008
I agree with Brent, that we need to go after the abuse and abuser. Otherwise it
just becomes a cycle. The abused becomes the abuser, etc. I also agree with
LeRoy. It's time for new leadership. To have the top attorney in the state
confused as to what the law says and whether it should be acted on seems
strange. I know I'm not an attorney, but as average Joe Citizen, can I
choose which laws I want to live? Sweet!!!
The headline of the story and the fact that the AG seems to want to take credit for the roundup in Texas because of what he's done, or not done, is totally absurd. By his statements, seems they would have felt safer here, because his office wasn't going to do anything to them anyway.
However, I've seen the AG take a proposal and pass it off as his own when he sees the political benefit from it. If Texas goes really bad, wonder what he'll come up with. Won't want it to be in his ballpark then, I'll bet. I'm sure we'll all be watching this play out.
The headline of the story and the fact that the AG seems to want to take credit for the roundup in Texas because of what he's done, or not done, is totally absurd. By his statements, seems they would have felt safer here, because his office wasn't going to do anything to them anyway.
However, I've seen the AG take a proposal and pass it off as his own when he sees the political benefit from it. If Texas goes really bad, wonder what he'll come up with. Won't want it to be in his ballpark then, I'll bet. I'm sure we'll all be watching this play out.
Non-believer | 10:13 a.m. April 14, 2008
Can't believe it. Our do-nothing, no guts attorney general is taking
credit for Texas. It is time for a non-Mormon to be a attorney general in Utah
with the intestinal fortitude to do what is right.
Legal Beagle | 10:14 a.m. April 14, 2008
Dutchman makes a good point: When the Catholic priests and bishops were (and
continue to be) embroiled in child sex abuse cases with young boys, did state
authorities go in and shut down the parrish, or the catholic schools where the
abuse occurred? No, they went after the offender, identified by a known victim.
Contrast that with rouding up an entire community in the name of finding the
anonymous victim at this ranch. Why not look just for the one offender
identified by the anonymous victim? Oh, maybe because he wasn't there?
The sheriff's informant didn't even know there was underage sex and
abuse going on at the ranch, so how exactly did probable cause get established
for the original search warrant? And once inside, why not only take the
pregnant young girls into protective custody, since they were obviously victims?
Any young girl holding a child isn't necessarily a young mother or abuse
victim, any more than my teenage daughter is automatically a young mother when
seen holding her younger siblings. Flimsy probable cause at best.
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The Eyes of Texas | 10:59 a.m. April 14, 2008
"As soon as Texas learned that child sex abuse occurred in other religious
schools and churches why wasn't there a big round up of other religious
people. This is selective prosecution at its worse"
Dutchman - why don't you give me an example? Tell me of a time when Texas learned of child sex abuse of other religious orgs and did not take action? They did attempt to intervene in Waco, but that went wrong. There are several pregnant teenagers in custody now. I don't think you understand that it is illegal in TX to marry anyone under 16 even w/ parental consent. So that is already against the law and considered child abuse.
Dutchman - why don't you give me an example? Tell me of a time when Texas learned of child sex abuse of other religious orgs and did not take action? They did attempt to intervene in Waco, but that went wrong. There are several pregnant teenagers in custody now. I don't think you understand that it is illegal in TX to marry anyone under 16 even w/ parental consent. So that is already against the law and considered child abuse.
TEXAS is WRONG | 11:25 a.m. April 14, 2008
Texas is wrong nad I hope they pay dearly for their intrusions on this
community. Go after the pedophiles and the abusers. These people have rights
too...its sad to see so many in favor of the government stripping the rights
away from the people.
Jon | 11:37 a.m. April 14, 2008
is it illegal for a man to get multiple girls pregnant at the same time? is it
illegal for a man to "date" multiple women at the same time?
i've known a few men who do that and don't claim polygamy, infact i could name a few women who practice the opposite, have children by numerous men (just watch springer to see it live)
bigamy is the act of being married to multiple women, which is illegal and prosecutable by law, in the case of this there is no second lawful marriage and like shutleff said would be hard to prosecute in a court of law.
why aren't you people out there stopping the other people who are practicing serial monogamy (multiple divorce), multiple partnering, etc?
who's going to pay for all the displaced children?
it's pretty easy to say what you think is best for a child, but not so easy to determine it. Are all parents automactically abusing their children in this situation? What about parents who have children with multiple partners, are they also abusers?
utah went through this with their raid, ever wondered why it didn't happen again? maybe utah knows better
i've known a few men who do that and don't claim polygamy, infact i could name a few women who practice the opposite, have children by numerous men (just watch springer to see it live)
bigamy is the act of being married to multiple women, which is illegal and prosecutable by law, in the case of this there is no second lawful marriage and like shutleff said would be hard to prosecute in a court of law.
why aren't you people out there stopping the other people who are practicing serial monogamy (multiple divorce), multiple partnering, etc?
who's going to pay for all the displaced children?
it's pretty easy to say what you think is best for a child, but not so easy to determine it. Are all parents automactically abusing their children in this situation? What about parents who have children with multiple partners, are they also abusers?
utah went through this with their raid, ever wondered why it didn't happen again? maybe utah knows better
To Brent | 12:52 p.m. April 14, 2008
You are next. Transfer the blame, that's your thought process. That makes
it OK. No, they brought this on themselves, 100%. Let it play out. If
they're right we have to accept every perverse sexual belief in the
Universe. This needs to be resolved and now.
Concerned Observer | 12:51 p.m. April 14, 2008
Many commenters here are crying "Foul!" over the removal of every
child from the Texas FLDS community, because it appears Texas is making a
blanket statement that every child in any type of polygamous family is abused.
That's not the case at all. Texas has determined that the lifestyle
created by THIS SPECIFIC COMMUNITY results in an abusive environment for
children; and that's true. Listen, dear folks, to the brave souls who have
escaped from the FLDS sect, and any other sect that promotes the arranged
marriages of underage females. They've lived it. They know. DO NOT
listen to those still living in such sects; they are brainwashed and programmed
to paint a rosy picture to the outside world, lest they be subjected to worse
abuses. They are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. If you don't know
what that is, look it up.
Cindy | 12:57 p.m. April 14, 2008
I agree with "Dutchman" here. My fear all along has been that the
public uproar will be so ferocious that authorities will be forced to return all
the kids to their homes, and another 55 years will pass! Dealing with one case
at a time is the right way to go; dealing with individual cases of child abuse,
rather than chasing the impossible task of changing an entire lifestyle! Look
at the miracle(s) accomplished by Carolyn Jessop and Shurtleff, as they
systematically dealt with one thing at a time in her case. I would be
interested in hearing what she (and others who have experienced FLDS firsthand)
thinks about the Texas situation!
Tom Haws | 1:06 p.m. April 14, 2008
Brent is close. But here are a couple of principles here in play that he's
ignoring.
1. Marrying and bearing a child is a lifelong commitment. As a society we have generally agreed it's best to protect youngsters (teens) from that commitment until they are informed, consenting adults.
2. The FLDS practice is to teach little girls that God via the prophet will Place them (The Law of Placing) in a marriage when they reach puberty. (The question of little boys is still troublingly unresolved.)
So Brent's right that it's a FREEDOM question. Do the Warren Jeffs of the world have the FREEDOM to practice a religion that takes FREEDOM, information, opportunity, and choice away from their children? Do they have the right to ensnare their girls into marriage early and deprive their boys of timely marriage at all?
Tom
1. Marrying and bearing a child is a lifelong commitment. As a society we have generally agreed it's best to protect youngsters (teens) from that commitment until they are informed, consenting adults.
2. The FLDS practice is to teach little girls that God via the prophet will Place them (The Law of Placing) in a marriage when they reach puberty. (The question of little boys is still troublingly unresolved.)
So Brent's right that it's a FREEDOM question. Do the Warren Jeffs of the world have the FREEDOM to practice a religion that takes FREEDOM, information, opportunity, and choice away from their children? Do they have the right to ensnare their girls into marriage early and deprive their boys of timely marriage at all?
Tom
Who to blame | 2:17 p.m. April 14, 2008
Its the mormons fault... errr wait no, it's global warming.
LaVal | 2:55 p.m. April 14, 2008
The FLDS are legally married to one wife. The men do not enter into
"legal" marriages with any other woman. Therefore they have not broken
a law prohibiting plural marriages. The crimes committed in the FLDS sect are
welfare fraud, when the mothers apply for assistance and do not identify the
paternal responsible person or acknowledge any monetary support; child sexual
abuse with underage minors, possible enslavement and other various crimes that
may be involved by their practice of having "spiritual wives". But
since they do not apply or participate in "legal" marriages by
obtaining state license for marriage, they have not committed a crime of
polygamy.
Several comments have been about prosecuting the laws violated and not attacking a religious organization. Oh, btw...let's get those same-sex marriages legal, or prosecute them. Oh, we do when it involves an adult and a minor. Follow the pattern and do the same with the FLDS. Stop abuse, not religious freedom.
Several comments have been about prosecuting the laws violated and not attacking a religious organization. Oh, btw...let's get those same-sex marriages legal, or prosecute them. Oh, we do when it involves an adult and a minor. Follow the pattern and do the same with the FLDS. Stop abuse, not religious freedom.
Henry Drummond | 3:11 p.m. April 14, 2008
In the 1950's Utah did crack down on these groups and it the state got a
black eye from it. For decades little or nothing was done. Mark has cracked
down on underage marriages and the financial fraud that has gone on down there
for years. Ironically he is now catching criticism for the neglect of others.
I think we all need to brace ourselves for another round of Mormon bashing. Its going to make anything leveled against Mitt Romney look like a Sunday cartoon.
I think we all need to brace ourselves for another round of Mormon bashing. Its going to make anything leveled against Mitt Romney look like a Sunday cartoon.
Realist | 3:46 p.m. April 14, 2008
Hey LEEEROYYY...and others, The problem of polygamy has been compounded over
decades of non action to the point that it doesn't make sense to prosecute
it...unless of course YOU have the money to pay for it, or you and all of your
neighbors are willing to take in a few children.
That being the case, let's focus on prosecuting other things like actual abuses to children and other more blatant offenses.
That being the case, let's focus on prosecuting other things like actual abuses to children and other more blatant offenses.
Boston | 3:57 p.m. April 14, 2008
Texas is in Hot Water over this. Raiding a town of their CHILDREN?! This is
totally illegal. The warrant issued was itself ilegal. Total violation of the
rights of these people.
I know children have been abused by Born Again Evangelical fathers...does this mean we should be raiding towns of fanatical Evangelicals?
I know children have been abused by Born Again Evangelical fathers...does this mean we should be raiding towns of fanatical Evangelicals?
Dutchman | 4:21 p.m. April 14, 2008
Yes, and we all know how well inside "informants" work in regards to
accuracy and not having their own agenda. Just look at what happened with the
high and mighty National Security Council and CIA under the Bush administration
with their informants inside Iraq telling them there were weapons of mass
destruction which started an invasion of the country. To round up a whole
community based on an informant and one phone call is as flimsy as the WMD in
Iraq. Texas will end up with egg on its face. This is the same state that
tried to enforce its anti sodomy law by catching two men in the act in their
apartment. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court and Texas lost
thus making it practically impossible for any State to prohibit what goes on in
private between consenting adults. As has been pointed out the men in this sect
only marry once legally, the other relationships are cohabitating which if
proven illegal would require the round up of at least half the population of the
US. Shurtleff is handling the situation in Utah just fine.
Quick Solution | 4:36 p.m. April 14, 2008
All the Texas authorities have to do is identify the parents of each child
rescued from YFZ Ranch and let criminal prosecution fall where it will.
State of Shock | 4:41 p.m. April 14, 2008
Shurtleff get off your high horse! You've got an ego that would make Freud
salivate to have you on his couch! I cannot imagine a more intimidating and
bigoted environmnent to live in than Utah where polygamists (and many other
cultural minorities) are treated the same way early 20th Century southern
America treated blacks. Using the word "plyg" is as offensive to
polygamists as the "N" word is to black people, and yet you utilize
the word as part of your unique Utah lingo. It is pretty hard to be culturally
sensitive to polygamists however, when church members must discriminate against
fundamentalists at peril of their standing in the LDS Church. No temple
recommend if you have feelings of compassion for or associations with any
fundamentalist group. Right? That means a person like Shurtleff is in a conflict
of interest because he cannot represent the interests of all Utahns when he has
already sworn to discriminate against the polygamists of the state in order to
maintain a good standing in his Church. Who would have thought Utahns would turn
out to be the most vocal discriminators of a way of life their predecessors
moved to in 1847 to protect?
Foster | 4:55 p.m. April 14, 2008
I think this is a situation where a child was being abused, and despite the fact
that many others wound up involved, it was the only way to attempt to remove
that child from the situation. This wasn't necessarily about the specific
religion being spotlighted. What else were they really supposed to do? Just let
it go once they went in to remove her and found so many other things suspicious?
JD | 5:28 p.m. April 14, 2008
Thanks "Dutchman" I think you have said what I would have liked to
have said.
WOW | 5:43 p.m. April 14, 2008
Amen State of Shock!
russ | 6:21 p.m. April 14, 2008
Foster, you have it right. What are the authorities to do? They have to move.
No choice. Or be fired from their jobs of protecting the public.
As to Utah's AG, he's got guts. Not much protective cover, but guts to spin things and to lie like that. Leroy, you nailed it.
As to Utah's AG, he's got guts. Not much protective cover, but guts to spin things and to lie like that. Leroy, you nailed it.
dear: State of Shock | 6:37 p.m. April 14, 2008
get real
the AG doesn't need to empathize or sympathize or be "culturally sensitive" to polygamist
he only needs to prosecute them
they are not a cultural minority, they are criminals
the AG's job is not to represent the "interests" of "all" Utahns, it is to uphold the law.
Shurtleff doesn't need sensitivity training, he needs the backbone to do his job.
the AG doesn't need to empathize or sympathize or be "culturally sensitive" to polygamist
he only needs to prosecute them
they are not a cultural minority, they are criminals
the AG's job is not to represent the "interests" of "all" Utahns, it is to uphold the law.
Shurtleff doesn't need sensitivity training, he needs the backbone to do his job.
Yea Right | 7:48 p.m. April 14, 2008
It is near election
Southern Utah Resident | 7:56 p.m. April 14, 2008
Shurtleff has ignored his responsibilities and failed to prosecute child
molestation, child neglect, and welfare fraud in these communities since he was
elected. It is Shurtleff's job to uphold the laws... not pick and choose
causes that make him look good. He has failed the children that have suffered
in this community.
TIME FOR A NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL!
TIME FOR A NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL!
Move on, Shurtleff | 8:10 p.m. April 14, 2008
Can�t believe this! Shurtleff just took credit for the
enforcement action in Texas which he deludedly believes was caused by his
invisible crackdown on the FLDS---and in the same breath, he went right back to
his impotent, do-nothing, hands-off policy. Time to go,
Shurtleff�oh, and next time you talk to a reporter, get a
media relations officer to help you out.
Seen one lately? | 8:41 p.m. April 14, 2008
Connect the dots - for thy inferior genes give forth the fruit of a sign your
path is wrong..
This from a Genetic Scientist on the under-reported genetic problems of the incestuous inbred community of the FLDS.
This horror is so great there are no pictures of the deformed and brain damaged people born with this genetic defect.
Rumor has it they are often killed when born. But there are a couple dozen born that the state welfare pays for.
"Fumarase Deficiency" syndrome - coming to a pregnant tweener near you!
=========
"The FLDS genetic disorder is categorized as a "Founder Effect", and it refers to a small population with a closed breeding pool.
In this case, the allele is recessive, and rare, so most people who carry it carry the normal allele, and are not affected. But if two such people have children, each child has a 1 in 4 chance of getting the recessive allele from both parents, and having the disease.
If the FLDS group STAYS inbred, the problem will continue. If they were dispersed into the general gene pool, it shouldn't present a problem."
This from a Genetic Scientist on the under-reported genetic problems of the incestuous inbred community of the FLDS.
This horror is so great there are no pictures of the deformed and brain damaged people born with this genetic defect.
Rumor has it they are often killed when born. But there are a couple dozen born that the state welfare pays for.
"Fumarase Deficiency" syndrome - coming to a pregnant tweener near you!
=========
"The FLDS genetic disorder is categorized as a "Founder Effect", and it refers to a small population with a closed breeding pool.
In this case, the allele is recessive, and rare, so most people who carry it carry the normal allele, and are not affected. But if two such people have children, each child has a 1 in 4 chance of getting the recessive allele from both parents, and having the disease.
If the FLDS group STAYS inbred, the problem will continue. If they were dispersed into the general gene pool, it shouldn't present a problem."
No No No State of Shock | 8:42 p.m. April 14, 2008
Get your facts straight. You speak of Bigotry and persecution yet you showcase
your ignorance and Bigotry toward the LDS church.
Fact child abuse is illegal and should be prosecuted.
Your attempts to liken the Polygamist plight to Civil Rights is wrong and lacks a fundamental understanding of the atrocities committed to people of color. Maybe I'm wrong maybe there have been burnings or lynchings of Polygamists in Utah. I could be wrong but I have no knowledge of it.
People have a right to fair treatment and the mass removal of these children is wrong. We as a society need to stand up for these children and their mothers. These families deserve a fair hearing. A mass hearing combining all these families is ridiculous. And we all should be appalled by these actions.
Lastly we need to have compassion for the innocent victims in this case. Not all those Mothers or Fathers are guilty of a crime. The poor children involved must be terribly confused. May our legal system have the wisdom to see their errors and correct them. May we as a society stop attacking one another and love thy neighbor, despite their and our own short comings.
Fact child abuse is illegal and should be prosecuted.
Your attempts to liken the Polygamist plight to Civil Rights is wrong and lacks a fundamental understanding of the atrocities committed to people of color. Maybe I'm wrong maybe there have been burnings or lynchings of Polygamists in Utah. I could be wrong but I have no knowledge of it.
People have a right to fair treatment and the mass removal of these children is wrong. We as a society need to stand up for these children and their mothers. These families deserve a fair hearing. A mass hearing combining all these families is ridiculous. And we all should be appalled by these actions.
Lastly we need to have compassion for the innocent victims in this case. Not all those Mothers or Fathers are guilty of a crime. The poor children involved must be terribly confused. May our legal system have the wisdom to see their errors and correct them. May we as a society stop attacking one another and love thy neighbor, despite their and our own short comings.
Herb | 8:55 p.m. April 14, 2008
Guess most of you folks have missed the fact
Texas officals have had a mole in the compound for
three years. at least, they know exactly what has beeb
going on... So no problem with the phone call mess.
Douglas | 9:03 p.m. April 14, 2008
Five times the U.S. population worldwide are of the Islamic religion. We
should toke their kids too. Call it a holy crusade, and its off to war to
impose our religious beliefs on the heathens.
I like the posts that say "Take the kids because the parents belong to a polygamous religion", without any inquiry as to the parents fitness, or that suggest that a religious enclave with polygamous beliefs is ipso facto a danger to children. Posts like this show that persecution can occur in modern day America, not just Nazi Germany, pre-civil war south, etc.
I like the posts that say "Take the kids because the parents belong to a polygamous religion", without any inquiry as to the parents fitness, or that suggest that a religious enclave with polygamous beliefs is ipso facto a danger to children. Posts like this show that persecution can occur in modern day America, not just Nazi Germany, pre-civil war south, etc.
Josephs Myth | 8:58 p.m. April 14, 2008
The sheer volume of ignorance about law and the practicalities of law
enforcement reflected in some of these postings is astounding.
Utah has been very slow to act on these cases -- for a variety of reasons, some legitimate, some not.
But Mark Shurtleff has taken the most practical proactive approach of anyone in Utah in a long time. His approach, while it won't eliminate the problem over night (and there's no way to do that unless you want to reinvent the "Final Solution" via gas chambers) is the one that is most likely to get some results without inflicting further severe damage on the thousands of people who are already victims.
His approach also has the distinct advantage of being scrupulously consistent with the Constitution of the United States, something which at this point cannot be said for the approach taken by Texas.
Utah has been very slow to act on these cases -- for a variety of reasons, some legitimate, some not.
But Mark Shurtleff has taken the most practical proactive approach of anyone in Utah in a long time. His approach, while it won't eliminate the problem over night (and there's no way to do that unless you want to reinvent the "Final Solution" via gas chambers) is the one that is most likely to get some results without inflicting further severe damage on the thousands of people who are already victims.
His approach also has the distinct advantage of being scrupulously consistent with the Constitution of the United States, something which at this point cannot be said for the approach taken by Texas.
a rose by another name | 8:59 p.m. April 14, 2008
So many posters here are apopletic about "polygamy". Why? Is it really
so different from the many serially cheating men in our society? At least the
polygamist men keep the women and children around after the deed is done. Since
polygamists marry only 1 woman under our legal system, infidelity is the worst
they can be accused of, assuming a consentual relationship.
Texas blew this one and Shurtleff should be distancing himself from this mess rather than claiming indirect credit for it.
Texas blew this one and Shurtleff should be distancing himself from this mess rather than claiming indirect credit for it.
Larry L. Shaw, Atlanta GA | 11:13 p.m. April 14, 2008
FLDS are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They
receive no support or sympathy from Latter-day Saint leaders or members. The
claim that the level of enforcement or non-enforcement of plural marriage laws
in Utah is influenced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is
unfair.
Short Creek | 11:42 p.m. April 14, 2008
The chief lesson of Short Creek was that if you don't cut out a cancer when
it is relatively small, it grows and metastasizes. So what should be done now?
Shall the state of Utah continue to look the other way when a violation of its
law (constitutional law no less) occurs? I say, NO. Enforce the law, or change
the law. Perhaps the violators of this law should be fined heavily if they do
not agree to abstain from polygamous living. This could be a condition of
probation. Other conditions could include an agreement to provide open access
to allow authorities to verify that no violations are continuing. If the law
were enforced, there's a chance that it could be challenged all the way to
the Supreme Court and there's a good chance that the court could rule that
laws against polygamy are unconstitutional. Then the polygamists could come out
of the closet, out of the desert, out of their secret compounds, and live in
open society. But allowing the law to be violated, using the excuse that we
can't imprison thousands of people, is unconscionable.
ron r,, anchorage, ak | 12:30 a.m. April 16, 2008
Ditto on State of Shock. Shurtleff should recuse himself for COI.
get a grip | 9:06 p.m. May 24, 2008
I don't understand Brent's comment "Do you have to fit into
mainstream religion to have freedom of religion now?". Do you not
understand that young girls were being forced to marry old men? Isn't that
child abuse and in the real world aren't children taken out of situations
where there are allegations of child abuse while the authorities figure out if
the allegations are true? This has nothing to do with religion. Get a grip!
Also, the comment "It's time to put some new none Mormon leadership in positions of authority in Utah that will enforce the law and protect helpless woman and children." is absurd. If you know anything about the REAL Latterday Saint Church you would know that they do not support abuse of any kind. I am surprised by the general feeling of most of these blogs in that people think this is over religious beliefs, that's not my take on the situation at all. How would you like it if your daughter was forced against her will to marry a man 2 or 3 times her age, especially when she's just a child herself? Think about it! Get a grip people.
Also, the comment "It's time to put some new none Mormon leadership in positions of authority in Utah that will enforce the law and protect helpless woman and children." is absurd. If you know anything about the REAL Latterday Saint Church you would know that they do not support abuse of any kind. I am surprised by the general feeling of most of these blogs in that people think this is over religious beliefs, that's not my take on the situation at all. How would you like it if your daughter was forced against her will to marry a man 2 or 3 times her age, especially when she's just a child herself? Think about it! Get a grip people.
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