Where are some of you getting your information. I have not heard on official
comment regarding this group in Texas using government as*istance. They would
know who the mothers are if that was the case. They would have birth
certificates.One of the fathers said he was 23. That is not a 50
year old man. Just because one woman who left the group married an older man
does not mean all of those in Texas married older men. Where is the proof??I saw lots of boys maybe 25 were put in a group home. They were not
kicked out.Also if I choose not to have disgusting music in my home
and I reprimand my teen boy for that and he runs away this does not mean I threw
him out. I do not allow video games in my home not everyone agrees
with that but should someone come in and take away all of the children in my
neighborhood based on a crank call?
Possibly there is no Sarah, but here is how the law works. Let's say a car is
pulled over for speeding. When the officer approaches the car, the driver acts
some way, or the officer sees something in the car, that leads him to believe
there is a crime being committed. The officer then has the legal ride to search
the car. If he or she then finds, say, narcotics in the trunk, that's
admissable evidence. However, officers can't just pull over cars for no
reason and search them. But if they happen to see evidence of crimes while they
are conducting other work, they are allowed to act on that evidence. The
phone call from "Sarah" was the basis on which the police entered the ranch.
Once inside, they saw other evidence of risk to children. As far as the
children still being held, they will have to be identified before being given
back to their parents. At this point, it's not known whose kids they actually
are - some are children of people who were kicked out of the cult, some are the
kids of people in other states.
There is no Sarah and Texas says it does not matter. Such is due process in the
state of Texas. Guilt is just assumed. Evidence does not matter. I fear for the
FlDS because they are opposed by a ruthless state authority to whom fairness is
an unknown quantity.
"Due process" Leave the children to be abused or????Your question
smacks of naviety. Remove the children, resolve the problem. Make a
disposition. It's called due process. Definitely not your version.
In other audio clips, Jeffs tells girls that they should not date or seek their
own husband, but that instead they should pray that they will prepared and will
be given to a husband who will be faithful to the end.
"Government is required to show some cause - even a shred of possible
evidence"Dear John, the case involves alot of minors. The state of
Texas is not obligated to send you any evidence on your schedule. The public
process starts Thursday April 17th. Tune in if you want.
right?I mean really now. The lamest of the lame excuses and
apologetics for what is well documented. Jeffs is a freak. A convicted and
jailed monster and he not only led but leads (documented by letters from the
colorado city officals pledging allegiance to him while behind bars) the sheep
to this day? ... systmatic shuffling of little girls to much older men. Only
FLDSers could possibly be so desperate as to post just unbelieveble and horrible
What about the need for due process - to show cause - before children are
removed? Was this done in all 416 cases? Of course not. Authorities did not
even find the person originally of interest. While there may be abuse - even
sexual - the constitution for good reason requires due process and cause before
a child (or anything) is deprived a person.I fully support
termination of parental rights when cause is shown - I do not support abuse -
but we should realize what the government has done in Texas. Government is
required to show some cause - even a shred of possible evidence - in every
individual case. Depriving any person first and investigating later is
prohibited. This is, or should be, a constitutional principle appreciated by
everyone - even those of us who find the YFZ group's practices reprehensible.
Thank you for your question. It fully gives the reason the children were taken.
No responsible adult could be found. Are these your children?
Silence. CPS has the right to take the children. End of story.
"From the very beginning, we have been very careful and considerate to minimize
the trauma to these children," said Darrell Azar, spokesman for the Texas
Department of Family and Protective Services. "Yet we will never learn the full
truth as long as adults who encourage a code of silence are standing over these
children's shoulders."This is a cult of brainwashed individuals. The
truth is going to have to be pried out of them. Their church doctrine is
abusive, why not try the church for it's abuse? You stood and pointed
fingers when people went after Catholic Priests. Ask them how this might relate
to them, they don't even teach a similiar doctrine, but boy have their paid $$$$
Gee, I wonder why Texas had to put an article in a paper to "unknown" parents.
Could it just possibly be that there are a lot of children who are clueless as
to who their parents are and worse yet, the parents won't claim themYou read it right. The FLDS are causing the problem. Gee I wonder what it says
on the birth certificate? Maybe, even the FLDS don't know, that possible? Let
the Texans sort it out, the FLDS aren't going to do it.
Bring forth the victim, without proof, the state or any other agency has no
case. Until this person is brought forward all the state has is a trumped up
case of hoax. The role of the CPS is in violation of all laws that the
constitition repesents.This is taking on the same grounds as it was
with the Alamo. The larger force is out to destroy the smaller (not weaker)
If children are in jeopardy of being married off at age 14 or 15, the state of
Texas certainly was justified in splitting up the families. Only time will tell
what evidence will be unearthed. Remember, Jeffs split up families,
excommunicating fathers and assigning wives and children to other men, simply
because the father had some beliefs that differed from those that Jeffs taught.
Not only should Texas take every step necessary to protect children but it also
should enforce laws against polygamy, which would be a wise step for Utah and
To James: An excellent post!Some of you folks are being very judgemental
when you should be concerned about whether the state's actions are
constitutional because the next time they may be coming to get YOUR kids!
If your child was missing, that would be a good clue, that you need to approach
the authorities and report a missing child. Suggesting that parents will not be
notified, accepts the premisis that these are bad parents, unaware that their
kids MAY be missing.Then you have 15 mothers who were missing
durring a RAID that lasted most of the night and the next 5 days. This is rural
Texas, where were they? Sleep'n around? Not likely, but on another compound.
They had left their children there, that doesn't take a rocket scientist to
figure out.Then someone here has figured it out! To claim a child
will require DNA testing. They have reassigned so many families, that taking the
word of the FLDS is SQUAT! Once claimed, you will ID mothers & those men who
impregnated them. Also girls that concieved after April 2007 will be those
married by Warren while he was on the Lam pursued by the FBI. More charges for
Warren Jeffs & conspiracy charges for those who participated on the Texas
Compound! There is much, much, more! The Faithful will have to chose between
more charges against Warren or What they tell Texas.
It's actually very compassionate of the state authorities to allow the mothers
to stay with the children, given that the mothers are probably cautioning the
kids not to say anything. And yes, it's all legal. They have the leader of the
community convicted of the alleged abuse and they have an additional allegation
of continuing abuse. That constitutes probable risk to children, and a judge
has agreed. No one else will see the evidence obtained until the documents are
filed in court; at that point they become public. So until then, why not just
keep the hysteria down a notch?
Are you people serious? This is nothing but a example of a police state. CPS
walked in and kidnapped these children under the umbrella of a court order. CPS
is no better then the nazi's. None of you know what actually went down in that
complex, so before you speak out in support of commen criminals, make sure you
have your facts. All they have done is gone in and taken these kids. No criminal
charges have been filed against the parents. yet they have lost there children
due to speculation. So plz tell me when did the government decide they could
burn the constitution? Is that not what they are doing here? This is wrong, and
I pray to god a judge has the courage to step in and put a end to it, before
these children's lives are ruined.
I don't know Ms. Jessop and I can't say her book is true or false. Warren Jeffs
is in jail, good! Anyone doing what he did should be in jail. He had a trial and
a judge, I believe in a fair trial. What about all the things Ms. Jessop has
told and accussed? They have not had a trial. Haven't we all read true and
false things? How do we know the truth is in the book? Sometimes we humans
want to believe outlandish things because they make us feel so bad and mad! We
want to be outraged, lash out, help make a change. Sometimes we are told lies. I
am not saying we are or are not being told lies. I am just hoping we are alert
and can figure out the truth without 'believing blindly'. (book, polygamists,
parkcity | 4:26 p.m. Apr. 13, 2008translation: we stole all your
kids, because we have been apprehensive about having you as neighbors, but its
really expensive housing all the kids we stole, so give us all your money.i laughed. a lot. thank you.
Many hours of investigation has happened here. If you think that officials could
just waltz into this compound and take 416 minors away without just cause,
you're on another planet. These people have been led and taught and commanded
by Warren Jeffs, (even while he has been behind bars), on how to do everything!
He was convicted on the very issues that are in question here and he admitted to
these acts! Educate, yes, but, if you try to educated a drug addict while they
are surrounded by drug users you aren't going to be very successful. You have to
put a drug user in an isolated place and then get the drug out of their system,
then you can begin trying to educate them. Then after lots of effort on
everyones part, the drug addict might be able to slowly make their way back into
society, but, rarely can they go back into the same home or situation without a
relapse. Why would it be different in this situation. This cycle has needed to
be broken for so long. I do hope the mothers and children who can be, are
reunited soon, but safely!
When the Lord's annointed Prophet abandoned polygamy as a practice in the late
1800's and forbid it, a few outlaws disobeyed and were excommunicated from their
faith. Look what has happened as these fringe cults continued, and different
groups led by the "Bull Elk " syndrome fought with one another commiting murder
and other crimes. If they had followd their prophet in 1890 life would have been
totally different for them. Obedience is the key to a blessed life. "Where there
is no Prophet the people perish"... Women and children included.
How about we find the 16 year old girl and help her. Then, let us figure out
what it is that we have heard about religious freedom? Is it only if we all
agree on the religion? Obviously the little children are not the girl that
called. Why have they been taken away from their mothers? There should have
been a better plan. I can't agree with the polygamist's religion or way of
life, however, that does not mean they can't believe it. Children yanked from
their home and mothers? That should not be tolerated. I don't know what really
happens in their homes. Some former FLDS members have told about terrible
things they experienced, but I don't know if I believe everything they have
told. Former members of other churches have also reported or testifed what has
turned out to be blatant lies about their former religion. Some people through a
disagreement or something else, feel they have to tell lies about their former
church. Church-bashing, I feel, has no place in a free America. Get the facts
about child abuse, if any, prosecute harshly the abuser, then move on. Innocent
should not be made to suffer.
"Other than phone calls from an unidentified person, what is the evidence of
mass abuse."--CuriousHello? Other than newspaper
interviews from unidentified people with no last names, what evidence is there
that the children taken by Texas child service advocates is there of discontent?
If we only take accounts from fully identified people with a full name and full
identity, then we have no stories saying this raid has caused any issues.How are the female sources the Deseret News is quoting any different
from this unidentified teenage source? Answer: THERE IS NONE! No female FLDS
member has yet acquiesced to allowing her full name being disclosed in a news
story. Why believe them anymore than a secretive phone call? Any questions?
Pretty presumptuous EP in comparing "supporters" of YFZ Ranch to President Bush
supporters. From the reading of the comments I've done, I have not seen a lot
of supporters, mostly people concerned with the rights of other citizens of the
USA. There is not a 'cut and dried' solution to this terrible problem. Child
abuse or adult abuse cannot be tolerated. Parental rights of citizens being
taken away without just cause cannot be tolerted either. I agree that there are
better ways of working with this solution. Prejudice regarding polygamy is
evident in this situation. I do not like polygamy. I do not like a lot of
things, but taking children away from parents to 'de-program' them is not the
right of the government! Polygamy is illegal. So is illegal immigration.
There are a lot less polygamists than illegal immigrants. Why aren't the same
government officials rounding up children of illegal immigrants because their
children need to be 'de-programmed'? Living off the government, collecting
welfare, free education, free emergency room visits so the rest of us pay more,
etc. hmmmm... let's have a witch hunt on everyone or no one!
If the children are taught to lie, don't know who their real parents are, or are
afraid to tell the truth, it is the parents' fault. Any parent worthy of a child
would be at the doorstep of where their child is held, identifying themself,
their child, their child's other parent, the birth dates and ages, photos, etc.
Instead, these cowards are depending on lies, lack of cooperation,
silence, changing stories, scripted testimony to "journalists," and whining
about the accommodations my blood, sweat and tears has provided for their
children while I struggle to pay the bills for my own child!If they
were so innocent, they would not have to resort to lies, hiding, tricks and
scripted "testimonials." They would just be open and truthful, cooperative and
transparent. I have no pity on dads who have several wives, starting
from when the women are not yet women, dozens of children they can only barely
know, welfare checks coming in monthly and out of my wallet, and a different
woman every night. Gee, how are they handling it? I don't feel sorry
for the dads. The moms need to be deprogrammed to be adults who can think for
Canada, You sound more sensible and intelligent than anyone else posting!
I agree that these women may need help and the LDS church may be the key on
helping them. However; Do you really think they would listen to the leaders or
the missionaries of the LDS church? If I thought it would help I would be the
first to go to Texas and talk with the women and children and teach them the all
that they would want to learn.
I disagree, I think what is inhumane is that these mothers allowed their
children to be married to older men and abused by them.
1)For those concerned about the newspaper posting of the legal actions: its been
over a week since many of the children were taken from the compound. If their
parents werent aware of what was going on at that time (unlikely, since the
community was so close-knit), they should have gone looking for the kids the
moment they got home to find them missing. If any caring parents children
suddenly disappeared, wouldnt they have found them and been camped out in front
of the civic center long before now, not just waiting--sans newspaper--at the
compound with no idea whats going on?2)As for whether or not the emergency
call was legitimate, I say its better to be safe than sorry when a teenage girl
calls with a terrified plea for rescue from rape. Its on the heads of
investigators to be honest about whether they truly acted on belief of imminent
danger to the girl. Id venture to say most of you with comments supporting the
YFZ Ranch community are the same people who felt President Bush was fully
justified in entering into a war with Iraq based on less evidence than the
emergency response teams in Texas had.
I have taken the time to read all these comments because I think the story is a
very important one, and the actions taken in Texas will certainly determine what
action Utah and Arizona authorities take in the coming months with respect to
the FLDS. My view is that Canadian and Sheila Peterson have put forth the best
thoughts. The bond between mothers and their children should be of primary
concern, with specific allegations, or suspicions, of abuse in individual cases
being only secondary.
These poor women who have been born into this incestuous slavery need help. Is
the LDS in Salt Lake City going to send missionaries to help to re-educate them?
It seems to me that mainstream Mormons would have the best chance of conversing
with these women and convincing them that what their men have been doing is
Layola | 6:32 p.m. Apr. 13, 2008 I suspect the mothers are lying about who
is their child, in order to protect the man.They lie if they were legally
too young to have a baby, without it being rape.Lying for the Lord. Its
been done before. Anonymous | 6:37 p.m. Apr. 13, 2008 So,
Layola...is the man the same as Lord?
It would appear from this article that parents who have birth records can claim
their children. Others who refuse to produce such documentation in
order to shield abuse because a mother was underage when the child was
conceived, or because a "father" (physical sire) does not want to be
unidentified, stand to loose custody of minor children. Is this not evidence of
criminal activity? If Utah and Arizona had done this years ago,
millions of dollars in welfare payments could have been avoided.
The last paragraph says that she interviewed a woman/girl that said she was 18
and her husband says she is 18 but the CPS worker thought she looked 16. (I have
a 17 year old that everyone thinks looks 12, that doesn't make her 12)on
page 3 by paragraph-first paragraph is continuation of page 2 (1)woman birthdate
12/9/89 - with a son born 8/1/2006 (2)woman 9/16/1988 two children
8/19/2005 8/12/2004(3)girl alleges she knows a 16 year old married to a 40
year old (again this could be talking about the same 16 year old mentioned
above)(4) girl alleges she knows a 16 year old pregnant girl due in June
that is married (possibly the same 16 year old yet again) (5)interviewed
girl who does not know her exact age but has a 2 year old and is pregnant. The
eight year old child from first paragraph's allegations are again stated here,
that there is a girl that is is 16 and has 4 children.
As a parent of 4 children, speaking from a mother's point of view, I think what
you are doing in separating these children from their mothers is inhumane. I
agree that the continued practice of polygamy is wrong. That the evidence of
child abuse should be investigated and stopped. The state of Texas has gone too
far in separating these children from their parents and causing undue pain and
suffering. The children are innocent. There are better ways to handle the
pages 2 and 3 show the findings of the CPS investigators. Read them carefully to
see what they actually found that they considered the "most important" out of
416 interviews.Remember they are being asked specifically if they know a
16 year old pregnant girl. On the second to last paragraph on page 2,
there is a 15 year old that says she "knows" a 16 year old that is married with
one child and pregnant with another. (no 16 year old present but a 15 year old
that knows a 16 year old)
The State of Texas is not going to hope that their "profit" will get "a
revelation" of the legal proceedings and tell the cult, as is seemingly the
singular/customary method of enlightenment with these people.They
have given notice the standard way via the paper's legal notices, as it should
be. If these dolts are too ignorant/arrogant to keep up with the local news, so
Simple solution: let the children stay with their moms and keep them the hell
away from the dads. A sensible compromise is to let consenting adults stay on
the ranch and continue to do their multiple wife thing. I really don't care
what consenting adults do --gay, straight or whatever, as long as children are
not involved in sexual activities. How about a federal law forbidding children
to live in cults such as these where child abuse is a way of life. A pattern
of pregnant teen wives on location would qualify as a forbidden child zone.
These 'fathers' & 'mothers' can read. They are smart enough to call social
services if their children have been removed. They have been smart enough these
years to keep this cult intact. The leaders own businesses and property, coerce
'the flock' into working in their business's w/o pay, committe welfare fraud
(they collect on the 'single' mothers/children who are their spiritual spouses
and children (or is that celestial) They have committed many vile acts and have
apparently had the taxpayers blessings! These loving? parents dumping &
abandoning their young sons like some would a stray cat or dog. How
long will the 'males'/leaders will stay in a compound w/o women and children to
rule over? How about the women who stayed behind with their man; are cries
for children sincere or are they following the leaders orders? Carolyn Jessop tells in her book & an interview on line that Warren Jeff's
sodomized a little boy of five. She testified against him in his case. This is
not about religion, it is a mafia/cult. Human rights have been severly abused.
People have been brainwashed and lived with fear and didn't even know the
difference. Right here in our country.
Thank you for printing the "opposing" view letters. In the past your letters
have skewed heavily in defense of the FLDS way of life. Most of my comments
were edited out because of my outrage over the behavior of these cult leaders
showing your clear insensitivity toward the victims and blind loyalty toward
this renegade offshoot of LDS. Frankly this rallying around the cult mentality
has influenced my feelings toward the mainstream LDS in my Arizona community.
This defensive attitude does a disservice to the great people of LDS similar to
the way the Islamic terrorists desecrate the good will of mainstream Muslims.
I'm surprised and pleased in your change of course...
I've done hundreds of deliveries, and have yet to see CPS question any of my 16
and under moms as to the age of the fathers. How often does the state go after
abortion mills who routinely commit abortions on minors to cover up the crimes
of pedophiles? In both these situations, CPS could easily pursue the
prosecution of pedophiles, but chooses not to. The selective enforcement of the
law is extremely troubling. I see the child victims of the foster
system every day. Traumatizing 400 sheltered children in a failed foster system
is equally troubling. How many of them will be physically or emotionally abused
in that environment? Keep them with their moms until proof can or
can't be found, and put them in decent facilities, not the rudimentary barracks
that have been provided. If the state chooses to disrupt a potentially large
number of innocent families or family members, then it should pony up to the
cost of minimizing the trauma.
And how much in public assistance has been paid to this sect each year with 400
children times approximately $200 per child dollars per month?????Is this how
the sect maintained and built their compound? All the while committing incest &
I agree with Canadian.
I just hope that the court hearings and sessions are public and not secret so
that nothing is hidden.Those that are guilty of a crime should be
punished. Whether it be abuse of another person or abuse of power.
Abusers should be prosecuted, absolutely. However, to accuse the whole church
based on one (or more) allegation seems heavy handed. We know the Catholic
church has problems with abuse. Does this mean we should round up the children
of all Catholics? Or in the case of public school teachers who abuse their
students, do we shut down the entire school? No. We prosecute the offending
teacher. Perhaps we should focus on catching the abusers, and let the children
I guess they now know that it would have been better to stay clear of the beast
rather than try to bleed it. The beast will now turn and bite them in the
behind.I used to do computer forensic work and because of the sloppy
and over zealous work that completely ignores our rules of law, there will be no
convictions that will stick from this. No initial complaint victim, and a second
source that is what looks like the typical unreliable confidential informant;
leading to what amounts to a falsified request for the initial warrant, and then
the fishing operation. They won't be able to use any evidence they find and the
perps everyone hates will get off, saved by double jeopardy, and the dual
state/federal jurisdictional ploy with the federal warrant will not work either,
just watch.OH and to all the self righteous souls out there: We do
not have statutory rape in Texas, it is sexual assault with a minor; aggregated
if they are under 14.
I THINK THE PEOPLE WRITING HERE WHO ARE DEFENDING THE SICKOS ARE THOSE THAT ARE
PART OF THE ORGANIZATION BECAUSE NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND COULD DEFEND THIS
TERRIBLE TRAGEDY.YES, TEXAS, DID WHAT ARIZ AND UTAH WOULD NOT DO AS
ONE OF THE ABOVE WRITERS STATED, SHE/HE IS RIGHT ON. BLESS THESE PEOPLE THAT
THEY FIND PEACE AT LAST.
If children are being abused lock up all of the men. Let the mothers stay with
their children until this is all sorted out. Why terrorize and punish the
innocent children? Family Protective Services is a business and they protect
their jobs just like any other business. Children are pawns in the system. More
kids mean more employees, more employees means more supervisors and more money,
and the beat goes on. Where are all of the pregnant teens we have been
told about? We have pregnant teens all over the U.S.where are the prosecutions
of the abusers? There are more questions than answers in this entire mess!!!
Education is better than evacuation. No law suits because the state might
require that all children learn of their rights by the time they are 8.
If not abuse of young girls or even abuse of grown women, why then is there a
bed in their temple? I know of no other religion who have a bed in their
You have made the most sense so far!!!
Canadian, you speak as if that ranch is a free place where moms, children can
come and go as they wish. If they find evidence of abuse then case workers can
and should move to protect the children. Then, let a court review and decide.
The FLDS bunch better be sure to have verifiable records. Not some
stuff they created themselves.. They'll be challenged hard in court.I smell both State and Federal charges coming. The 'lone star'
state has struck a mighty blow against the FLDS. That compound
should be declared off-limits to children!!!!
here ...are you guys still trying to defend this group while the whole world
watches your sick rendition of LA Law.
Yes, I am from Utah. (This is a UT paper.) I have been watching this unfold
and believe that this could have been handled better, differently. But
hindsight is 20/20, and I'm glad they decided to error on the side of caution
and help the 16 year (mom).For those folks that want to take pot
shots at UT and AZ, you should read up on what they have accomplished over the
past few years to try and combat this deplorable group of incestuous men. Contrats to the three states for sending a consistent message to the
FLDS brethren that rape/incest is illegal in UT, AZ, TX, and the rest of the
If these women are subjecting their children to sexual abuse (and the under-aged
pregnant girls would indicate proof they are), then they are just as guilty as
the men. May God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit be
with these girls, and may they know Him and become saved by His grace.
The media is an interesting entity. Generally liberal, they vehemently support
homosexuals and scream bloody murder if one of these folks are discriminated
against. How is polygamy any different when it comes to an alternative life
style? I DO NOT condone children giving birth to children, and if these men are
having sex with 14 year olds in their "temple," I think they should be
prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But if we are just talking about
polygamy among consenting adults, let's leave them alone - otherwise it's a
These women are taught to avoid all forms of media. Do the social service
people really expect that they will see the newspaper notices? Yes,
I know it's been stated, that "word gets around" in the FLDS community, but, for
all their talk of trying to be considerate of the faith/culture of the women
involved, this seems rather an oversight.For the record, I am not
for or against polygamy. I am, however, against abuse, of people by their
spiritual leaders, AND by their government.
I think the best moms for those kids are their moms. The best homes for them are
their homes. If you're worried about abuse, don't go in and take the kids. Go in
and educate the moms on what abuse is and how to be better mothers. Why take the
children from a whole community over one report of abuse? Texas, you've
if this a viable religion...where is it chartered or recognized? I want to
contact their missionaries to hear their stance on how holy they are..their
temple , garments etc. And where are the minority members? So that I can really
feel for them , you know, you see , you know!
Like I've said before, I hope Texas knows what it's doing. If not then in a year
or so from now we''ll be saying "thank you Utah and Arizona for not doing what
Texas did and costing us millions of dollars in law suits." Weed out and
prosecute the abusers. As far as the polygamy part, were their marraiges
sanctioned by the state of Texas or were they 'spiritual marraiges'? Can you
prosecute them for polygamy if they were not sactioned by the state? I see
this thing going to the Supreme Court.
By being subject to underage "spiritual marriage" all these children have
been abused. Imagine being a 12 or 13 year-old girl knowing that you will
shortly be married to some repugnant, 50 year-old male. Shame on the so-called
"adults" of this sect.It's time to expose the injustices committed
against the women and children of this community. The weak and cowardly male
members (improper to call them men) of the FLDS that hide behind the skirts of
religion need to be rounded-up and prosecuted for their pedophilia.
and the parents for the money in keeping these kids, it would just be getting
back all the welfare they have been collecting anyways with all "the unwed
mothers for government aid" but spiritually married. I dont care about the
plural marriages but the child abuse and taking welfare while acting like they
are above the law they deserve what they get.
Does this remind anyone else of Arthur Miller's "The Crucible"? A young unknown
girl makes some allegations and , wow! what a witch hunt has ensued. I really
think this is about religious bigotry when there are comments like "we have an
entire community to de-program"
Some of the children are pregnant. There is no legal way they should be pregnant
so rape has been committed. "Seems to Me II" should get real - Texas is doing
the right thing.
Lawyer up!Every child will have one. The FLDS better step up and
cooperate. Some of you may not like it, but there are numerous charges of rape
and abuse.It's not just one phone call. And to the poster who
thinks it's all a hoax, UH, what have you been smoking? Statutory rape is the
charge for sex with a minor. Don't care what your religion is, ain't about
After working in CPS for overall 14 years, a agency needs a disclosure or
evidence before going to court. Texas is no exception
I suspect the mothers are lying about who is their child, in order to protect
the man.They lie if they were legally too young to have a baby,
without it being rape.Lying for the Lord. Its been done before.
RuleOfLaw is absolutely right. This particular polygamous cult has been
inbreeding for so long that the IQ of their leaders must be somewhere in the
low-mid 50s. They leave Hildale/Colorado City where they were getting some heat
after being tolerated for the 50 years since the Short Creek raid. But they
move to Texas? They execute people for double-parking in Texas! What were they
thinking you ask? Well, years of inbreeding have rendered them incapable of
intelligent thought. These poor idiots are now facing extinction due to natural
selection brought on by their bizarre lifestyle. What a waste of human lives.
God have mercy on them.
If these old men want to have more than one wife, then so be it, but make sure
they are of legal age. Not one that is brain washed from birth. Think of the
feelings you would have to know your little daughter was being mulled by some
old man? If any of you can't think this happens, take a road trip to Southern,
Utah. Go into the Walmarts, grocery stores. Look at these woman and hoards of
children buying baskets of food on food stamps. Come and take a look at these
little girls with new babies. Do any of them have insurance? Who is paying for
these old men to 25 children in one family? Why was Tom Green put in jail? He
admitted to having teen brides. Why is Warren Jeffs in jail? Because he ran a
stop sign? These woman and children need a voice, not brain washing. Thank You
Legal notices like this are place in the paper in addition to serving people in
person. I seriously doubt that the women in the shelters and the people in the
ranch haven't been served. It's not in the best interest in the state to not
make a reasonable effort to serve them.No one really knows what happened
except the people who lived in the yfz ranch. I'd wait before hypothesizing.
Everybody has an agenda. many ex-flds have such radical agendas as - not wanting
to be raped, not wanting their kids to be beaten, not wanting to commit fraud
and volience in the name of their "prophet", not wanting to have their wive(s)
and child(ren) "reassigned" to other men. Moreover, regardless of whether or not
they find the "girl", as long as the state can show that they had probable
cause- all the evidence they are going to find is going to be admissible. 12
year old girls are people two. they have civil rights. and there's
so much rumor. Until the facts come out, wait.
It is heartening that Texas authorities are focusing on the child abuse aspects
of the case at this point; protecting these young victims must be the overriding
concern.However it will be a mistake to ignore the polygamy aspects.
It is living polygamy outside the law that renders groups like FLDS clannish and
closed to outsiders. That circumstance leaves the children isolated and at the
mercy of the adults. The difficulty of recruiting new women into the group means
the predator males will inevitably turn to the female children of the group. Any
polygamous cult living outside the law is inevitably going to be an abusive
environment for the children, the only question is the degree of abuse.It is time to quit tiptoeing around the fact that POLYGAMY IS ILLEGAL. No one
should apologize for enforcing the laws. No one should shirk from enforcing the
laws (are you listening, Utah?)Groups that insist on living polygamy
should find a country that's laws accommodate their beliefs or work to change
the laws where they live. Otherwise the tragedies of Utah and Texas
will be repeated.
Other than phone calls from an unidentified person, what is the evidence of mass
abuse.If the issue is polygamy, just say so, and prove that, too.
Probable cause, arrest, trial, then sentence. Wrong order in El Dora..doh!
Outrageous stories directed at polygamists... Not much hard evidence to go
on... everyone involved has an axe to grind on one side of this issue or
another... Is this Texas circa 2008 or Utah circa 1885? I don't
like polygamy and despise child abuse. But I honestly can't see through this
haze at this point. Heaven help us all!
Apparently the FLDS stay in touch with one another quite well. If they do not
subscribe to the newspaper posting the legal notices, perhaps they have read
about it here as you did. If not, then by now the concerned parents
should have been in contact with authorities to tell them, yes, my child was
taken. This is his or her name, and this is who I am and who the child's other
parent is. You may contact us at this number.A major problem with
this situation is the apparent reluctance to speak out, be responsible, have
your name taken, and work with authorities to have the situation rectified and
children returned to their families. How can a child be returned if
the parents are hiding or refusing to give first and last names and
documentation proving familial bonds? If it were my child, I'd be assembling
every document and photograph, and giving everyone in the legal and child
welfare system my name so they knew darned well where to contact me. That
doesn't seem to be happening here.
The proof is in the pudding, if these mothers care enough about their children,
and most of them are with the children and about three are at the ranch, these
mothers will take ownership. If they really want to claim their child, they
need to have the courage, especially if they are under 16, to stand up and say,
this is my child. The 16 year old mother is not at fault, if they find out that
her child was fathered by someone older than 18, then the law is broken. If
these young mothers will not step forward to claim and to prove they are the
mothers, then they can consider these children abandoned in my opinion and put
them in foster care and up for adoption. The only people at this point who need
to sweat are the adult fathers and parents that placed their young daughters
into these marriages. If they find nothing happened, then there is egg on the
face, but based on the past in this group and others in Utah, I would be very
surprised if they didn't find sexual abuse.
Warren Jeffs was CONVICTED in the event that you do not pay attention. Did he
have crimes of which he was proven guilty? YES. Did Jeffs command that
underage girls marry relatives (fumerase deficiency is the end result)? Yes. Oh
geez, I must be nuts to believe that such would happen again and again when the
leader leads in such criminal actions. The parents that allow it are just as
guilty. And yes, I have corresponded with former polygamist
women. While you can ignore the abuse they experienced, I cannot nor will
not.I hold no holier than thou approach, but base this new situation
on track record of the group. God gives all the right to judge in
righteousness. Try reading your bible. I don't see any commandments stating
that children should be forced to marry while children giving birth to children
either.Again, it's about abuse. Perhaps you believe your prophet
enough to sacrifice your children to him, but I refuse to check my brain at the
door. Again, it is in the track record of the group.
Its all to interesting how so many in utah want to throw out the baby with the
bath water! The abuse is rampant! I was the FKS Child Abuse rep for utah &
arizona 1996-2001 and had clients who were apostate FLDS. I lived then in
Hurricane Utah 26 miles away. I have spent nights with friends up there and I
have most of their doctrine in Text and on Audio.Then in blogs
mostly in Utah, the apologist and constitutionalist are crying foul, thowing
very little about what goes on inside!
I agree with II, no evidence has been released to the public, just spins and
expectations. Jane, where is the evidence for those claims that the FLDS are
just animals(the treatment they are getting)?We all think something
wrong may have happened, but have seen no documents to verify it. Few would try
to destroy or label an entire culture on the basis of unproven or minority
allegations. We all live in some CULT(ure). Lets give it time and the truth
will come to the surface.The phone calls that supposedly started it
all appear to be fabricated, either by design, or, hoax. It appears the man
involved hasn't been in Texas since 1977. Not a good indication for the
thoroughness or honesty of the investigation.
"And what is to be done for those parents who do not subscribe to that local
newspaper? Are they to have their children taken away simply because they were
not informed of a pending court case?" Hi there, Mike Richards, you
don't seriously think the parents aren't going to get the word on this, do
you?These people thought they'd be cute, committing crimes against
children with impunity by playing dumb. Guess again, child abusers.
Well, that is the end of the calls to DNews reporters from the FLDS moms. The
Trib reports that the women were told to turn in their cell phones under court
order to avoid witness tampering, and if they refused the FLDS women could leave
Seems to me that Texas intends to challenge these mothers on their own true age
and paternity to the children they claim.If some of these women are
now so concerned about the children's care, they should have being outrage about
girls going up into the white tower at 13-14. They're in this with the adult
men. Probably telling the girls 'be sweet'...shame
How I wish that the Deseret Morning News would not get involved in any way
covering any aspect of this bizarre story. It contributes to the confusion. It
is hard enough for the general public to realize this story is not about The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, without the Deseret News adding to
the confusion.... Leave the story alone, please!!!!!!
Seems to me like you have listened to the media spin, and ex-FLDS who have an
agenda, how many of these people do you personally know? How many have
personally told you they were abused? How many of those stories are
corroborated? You go on and on and on about what you think happened in there,
yet, not one bit of it has been proved, not one bit of it has been justified!!
You take such an holier than thou approach you make me sick. If you judge, then
I want to know who gave you that right? The phone call is going to be proved a
hoax, and then tell me, what are you going to do?
It seems to me that all posters so far have forgotten that crimes have taken
place. Warren Jeffs is already in prison for his crimes. If Jeffs as their
leader allowed for child abuse and child rape and incest, it is not outrageous
to believe that his followers will commit the same crime even if they profess
religious freedom as the excuse.Quit your delusions that this is
about polygamy. It is not. This is about crimes against children including,
rape, abuse and in the case of boys (polyg males don't like competition)
abandonment.To repeat myself. This is not about polygamy but about
child abuse and rape. These same mothers allowed their daughters to be
I dont believe that every single one of those children were abused or neglected,
but if these mothers and fathers dont step up to the plate, cooperate and
identify themselves and their children, then the State is going to consider that
the children have been abandoned and take permanent custody. The FLDS are
foolish if they dont cooperate with the investigation. Those among them who
have not committed or contributed to these terrible acts will be able to get
their children back. It is never worth sacrificing your own family just to
protect those who are guilty.
I'm certain the sheriff made sure the accused parents and their high priced
criminal defense lawyers all received copies.
I'm still confused. Who is in charge of this ordeal. The State of Texas, FBI,
or really good baptist. Don't get me wrong the FLDS should be stoped
from marrying off little girls. But the way Texas is going about this is wrong.
These children have admitted to sexual, mental and physical abuse from the
ANIMALS who are the older people in the compound. If it weren't for the Texas
law enforcement officials, they would still be in their so called "TEMPLE" being
abused by old dirty men who act on their desires under the guise of RELIGION.
Come on, give Law Enforcement a break. They are upholding the LAW. It is
ILLEGAL to have more than one wife, and is illegal to have sex with a minor.
Get a life, people.
How are these parents supposed to know when the hearing for their child is being
held if the names of the children are not even listed? And when the parents show
up, will they be questioned on whether or not they really are the parents as has
been the case with some of the women?
Thank you Texas for doing what Arizona and Utah won't.
Instead of "Remember The Alamo" it might be more like "Remember The Guantanamo
Of Texas". How does one take all those women who went their children,
"voluntarily", tell them you are going to help them, then publish a notice that
you are attempting to sever their parental rights? How about some military
tribunals to make it all look good?Lay on the artillery and look for
the family pieces later.I'm not certain how declaring a default end
of parents rights could be more personal. It would seem that if this is
legitimate, then a counter-suits could also be served by simply publishing a
notice to all would-be Foster Parents and involved officials that they are being
sued by he FLDS and individual groups(makes it more expensive to defend)- the
details coming later, after each infraction is discovered.
These fundy mormons should have all gone to mexico and parts south so they could
grease a few palms and avoid the rule of law. Big miscalculation just moving to
translation: we stole all your kids, because we have been apprehensive about
having you as neighbors, but its really expensive housing all the kids we stole,
so give us all your money.
And what is to be done for those parents who do not subscribe to that local
newspaper? Are they to have their children taken away simply because they were
not informed of a pending court case? Are these human beings worth
no more than cattle who can be driven as a herd by someone carrying a stick or a
gun? It's time that every American gets out of his easy-chair and
demand that the Government abide by the Constitution - popular opinion be