First look: Quiet is unnerving as FLDS members seek answers
I am not a Mormon or member of any sect affiliated with Mormonism, but after
reading "Escape," by Carolyn Jessop, Ex FDLS wife of Merril Jessop, I know that
the children's individual mothers love their, and the communities kids, but the
fathers have a very distant and mentally abusive relationship. The family in
the book had one wife that was very abusive to the other wives, and their
children. She would often beat a toddler (under 3) till it would stop crying
due to fatigue from crying. If this isn't abuse, what is abuse.And M.
Jessop would place a wife that he was upset with in a job that would seperate
her from her kids. This would mentally terrorize the woman, as she wouldn't
know if her children were getting proper care and meals. The wife, Carolyn, had
4 dangerous pregnancies, and 1 handicapped child, these were attributed to her
disobidiance, and not being "In harmony with her Prieshood Head. (husband.") I
feel that it is one right to practice a religion of their choice, and worship as
they choose. But the religions, and religious leaders should follow the laws of
I don't understand how these people can be living for God.They certainly
don't seem to be living for the same God as I am.My God, the Heavenly
Father of Jesus Christ does not condone this stuff.. he doesn't condone
polygamous relationships or segregating yourselves from the world.i
don't understand how they can believe to be following Him, yet doing all this
stuff that he teaches against.
Good grief! Are these people hurting anyone?? Are they bothering people to
become part of their religion?? Are the children starning or homeless?? LEAVE
I agree with Carol's comment. One thing people forget when they read these
distraught interviews is how very flexible the concept of "truth" is to cult
members. Much of the offenses spewed here - that cops were "ransacking their
homes", were "yanking their children out of their arms" - may simply be
fabricated to buttress their case as defenseless victims, as they fight for even
the tiny, tiny piece of happiness that they have been allowed in life, by their
male "owners": Access to their kids. Really: If you had nothing else,
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, not even control of your own body, your own MIND, what's
left for you to value in life but your children? These poor people need a way
out. Or if it's too late for them, their children need a way out.
After just reading the book "Escape" by Carolyn Jessup, I wouldn't believe a
word of any flds members. They are all brainwashed and know nothing else. It
incenses me to think about all the abuses going on in that fanatical religious
sect..and the people trapped in it.
The religious beliefs of the FLDS are the reason most mainstream Christians feel
bad about what has happened. Imagine this: a cult of satan worshippers was
living on a secluded ranch in texas in which polygamy was openly practiced. How many people would then be upset about the children being removed? We
would all be convinced they were better off in foster care than with the "devil
worshippers" who practice polygamy. Despite this group's profession of
Christian faith, the practice of polygamy is the dangerous part of this socity.
This teaches the daughters to believe they are less worthy of God's love than
their brothers. This is the most dangerous aspect of this situation and has
such long reaching consequences that the removal of this generation will not
effectively solve the problem.
Yes, they used to attend public schools and started out as good people with good
intentions. During the former "prophet", Rulon Jeffs' rule over the community,
his son, Warren saw the opportunity to step in and take over and completely
control every aspect of their lives. The women and children ARE abused,
neglected, starved, beaten, sexually harassed and abused, and they have NO say
over their own lives,or even their bodies. Among other things, Warren Jeffs
outlawed the color red and the word "fun". What does this tell you. Wake up,
people. Al Quaida killed thousands in the name of religion. Just because they
operate under the guise of a church, does not make them God-fearing people.
These children need out of there and the women need to be counseled. Most of
them have never known anything different, and aren't allowed to investigate
other means of living.
The YFZ Ranch religion seems to be designed purely to promote racism and to
allow old men to have sex with underage girls.Hopefully all of the
adults will go straight to prison.
First of all the girls were never forced to marry at a young age. They were
encouraged to wait but these girls wanted families. FLDS revolves around raising
principled god fearing children above replacement levels unlike the fruitless
immoral stubbleizing west. How ironic, if there was ever a time in history when
polygamy might be considered it is now.
I can't fathom how anyone could be so cruel and so stupid as to think the FLDS
raid was justified, and that those poor children and babies should be separated
even from their mothers. It's sickening to think that there are people who are
cheering on this kind of vicious totalitarianism. What will they do when the
police come for their children, all because of a fake phone call. Surrogate
bullies, hoping to ingratiate themselves into the good graces of the police
state - check out what happened with Stalin's flunkies - your fate will be the
same.This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when
he first appears he is a protector. -Plato
I don't feel sorry for these mothers at all. Abuse comes in many forms. Turning
a blind eye at what is going on is ABUSE. Not protecting your child is ABUSE.
Handing over your young daughters and turning out your sons is ABUSE. We are not
interested in what's in the best welfare for the mothers; just the children. I
am sad to say that it is probably too late to reform a lot of the mothers in
this case. But hopefully, the children can be "reprogrammed" to live a happy,
healthy, and prosperous life. Oh, yea...and I am sick and tired of "PICKING UP
THE TAB" for "child support" in the form of welfare! Get a job lady.
Homskewl, the children weren't removed from the encampment because their mothers
were dressed conservatively. And yes, if he calls the woman his wife,
technically, he is a criminal. You only get one (at a time). Maybe do a
little research next time. More than half a dozen girls 16 and under with kids
or pregnant? Children who won't/can't name their parents? Women who won't name
their children? Men who say . . oh yeah, NOTHING. Something is awry.What
these children are subjected to is not only ethically perverse, it's illegal.
The CPS did its job. Have no doubt - if they did it wrong, they'll get theirs
as well. Expand your mind. Come out of the box . . . it's ok.
I think the the State needs to destroy the ranch, and takes the children away.
These children have been abused and should be away from their parents. I was on
the ranch today and climbed the fence to get a better look. If you saw waht I
saw then you know that all the women and grown men should be in prison
I agree that they should have removed the men to shelters and questioned them
there and left the women and children in familiar surroundings. It would have
been far more humane to leave the children with familiar caretakers in their own
homes. However, there is a double standard operating in the comments. If this
was a Muslim compound, how would America react? There would be no comments of
"innocent until proven guilty" or "two sides to every story." America would have
assumed that they were guilty, deviant and evil, simply because they were
Muslims. As long as they are white and Christian (even perverted Christians), we
are willing to see them as sweet, innocent and polite.
"What I don't understand is why the FLDS were so secretive about their
lifestyle? If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why
not just live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the
rest of the Christians do?"
> My guess is that they wanted to live apart so as not have their children
influenced by the immoral world that we see around us.Except the
FLDS are the immoral ones.> Maybe for the same reason the Amish,
Mennonites, etc., want to live apart.However, they don't. I know, as
I live near Amish and Mennonites. In fact, the more conservative Amish encourage
their young adults (older teens, early 20s) to jump headfirst into "Yankee"
society for a couple of years to see what it's like, to determine if they want
to leave the Amish life and join western society instead, which they are FREE to
do, if they so choose. The Amish don't fear real education for their children
and grant their children the God-given, human right of self-determination. This
is 180 degrees opposite to your claim.
So typical of criminals to try to hide rape, pedophilia, incest, and polygyny
(no polyandry going on here) behind the freedom of religion clause in the First
Amendment. Their "religion" is a complete fabrication so these men can exert
control over other humans whom they set up to be their sexual slaves. To the men
in control, it's about one thing: them getting all the sex they want. So many
cults boil down to just perversions of religion for overt or subtle sex
purposes. That's not true religion, folks.This is no religious
freedom matter. It's human slavery, rape, pedophilia, incest, and polygyny.
Government authorities have been studying and investigating this group for
decades and have the evidence. The DNA results will further support their case.
The children don't even know who their fathers OR mothers are. If this kind of
behavior were discovered on a single-family basis, or if it were a stranger who
kidnapped another person, everyone would be up in arms to prosecute and convict
the perpetrator. However, throw on a phony "religious freedom" charade, and
suddenly smart Americans fall for the trick. Unbelievable.
Perhaps we should wait on all of these comments until the truth comes out.
Religious freedom is a right in this country....but not at the expense of our
humanity. If these children have been forced into marriages and childbirth with
multiple husbands....then they are at fault and must be dealt with. We do not
live in the stone age anymore. Our ancestors had to practice polygamy(for lack
of a better word) in order to create a wide enough gene pool to ensure the
survival of the species. That is not the case any more. My personal opinion...
we just caught a bunch of dirty old men. If you disagree... thank a veteran for
keeping your right to free speech... FREE
Remarkable. In one sentence poster Harry Winsor has framed the concern for the
children at the TFZ Ranch (Harry, the Z stands for Zion) in anti-semitic and,
excuse me, ignorant, terms. Uh Harry, "Social Marxist" is just a little
redundant, don't you think?
Our Zionist Social Marxist government is OUT OF CONTROL and must be STOPPED!
Maybe a few of you ought to read the new book Escape by Carolyn Jessop.( a
former member of the FLDS.) you may have different thoughts regarding
religious freedoms when it comes to mental, physical and emotional abuse to
women and children all in the name of God. Theyre religion is nothing but a
mockery! I was disgusted that this has gone on in our society and we havent done
anything until now! Those women and children are entraped in a world of hostile
abuse of every kind. meanwhile remember you are paying for thier so -called
religion with your tax dollars they fraud the government out of to support
thier wives and children they dont claim. It kills me that alot of you dont call
this abuse!! way to go Texas! Finally a state ready to stand up!
Its not the living apart that cocerns me it is the way women are taught they are
baby making machines and young boys are either thrown out or trained to abuse
women no matter what age. all of these child are going to have too learn a
different way f life. your family tree has to have limbs not just a trunk. Then
everyone wonders why they have handicapped child .
WHEN A RELIGIOUS SECT CAN ARBITRARILY BE RAIDED AND DESTROYED WITH NO PROOF,
THEN THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF RELIGION IN THIS COUNTRY. ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE, AND
INDEED ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH MUST STAND UP AND SAY "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" ! IF THIS
CAN HAPPEN TO THE FLDS, THEN IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANY AND ALL CHURCHES. THIS IS
AMONG THE FIRST STEPS IN THIS COUNTRY'S DRIVE TO REMOVE GOD FORM OUR LIVES. THIS
TRAVESTY CANNOT STAND.
WOW-everything here is about how wrong the state of texas is- I think there are
alot of people here not seeing the bigger picture--Underage girls being married
off--HELLO!!! Being forced to mary older men, that is not religious freedom-ITS
SICK!!!Having no choice to make any decisions for yourself-what to learn ,
what to wear, what to say , how to live--again having no choices is not freedom
of any sort. While I am no way saying ALL these kids should be taken from
thier parents, most should be because the parents are so freakin backwards in
thier thinking. I mean, come on why so many lies to hide the truths??
FLDS is an authoritarian religion (um, like LDS?). Do you supporters have any
problem with,1) Women "reassigned" to new husbands?2) First cousins
unlawfully marrying producing children with genetic disorders?3) The lost
boys?4) Mothers refusing to identify their children to authorities?Perhaps this trauma to the children is a necessary first step to a life of
liberty, or else the girls will become baby machines (18 kids anyone?) and the
boys will be tossed out on the streets of SLC and Las Vegas. But then, I must
be punch drunk.
Those of you crying religious freedom I want to ask what about the rights of the
young girls these old perverts had sex with? What about them? Huh?
I think it was wrong for the Children to be removed from their person. This
phone call could of been investigated while the children and their mother
remained.They should of removed the men from the compound and questioned them
until they got some answers. This is not abuse it's about a life style that
America is outraged about. And yet they close a blind eye until now. Why punish
the parents and the children. This could of been handled differently. It's
I represent two of the children. CPS painted with much too broad a brush in
applying abuse to all of the children in the community. CPS needs to be held
accountable for their actions and it is up to individuals to voice their
complaint to make a change. This is just WRONG. It is my understanding that the
children need and want to be returned to their mothers, but no one will listen
to their story. Additionally, CPS complained to the Court that the mother's
would not identify themselves, but then there was evidence in court that the
mothers offered driver's licenses and birth certificates, but CPS said they did
not want to view the documents. CPS has way too much power and usually very
little education. They just have to have a college degree in ANYTHING and 90
days at their school, and then they are ready to investigate allegations of
child abuse, interview child victims, and refer the case to law enforcement.
Turnover is high. The living situation in the coliseum that I viewed was
horrible, and the thoughts of the babies crying at night for their mothers is
heartbreaking. Write your Texas legislators and Governor Perry! Please.
"The Texas authorities are doing the right thing - giving many who are too
scared to speak up, an opportunity of getting out of that judgmental environment
where you are not allowed an opinion of your own, you are forced to agree with
old, perverted men."Careful. You might be labeled a feminist.
The reason that all the kids were taken is because when they were asked who the
kids' parents were, no one would answer. The kids said multiple women were their
mothers, none of the men would claim to be the fathers, some of the women
admitted that they said nothing.When everything's on the up & up,
families & parents have no problem identifying & owning up to who their kids
"It is not just the men, it is the women who are the more spiritual and who most
believe and want to practice polygamy, they have a deep sincere believe in
mormonism, most of them like and prefer their live style and believe that it is
God's will. Who can prove them wrong."... can prove them wrong if
part of their belief involves the seemingly necessary "lost boys" and forced
marriage of young girls to keep the men meeting the 3 wife criteria for going to
,,, where is it? ... their version of heaven?
It is not just the men, it is the women who are the more spiritual and who most
believe and want to practice polygamy, they have a deep sincere believe in
mormonism, most of them like and prefer their live style and believe that it is
God's will. Who can prove them wrong.
I think this whole thing is ridiculous honestly...and i dont think god put
men/women on this earth to have multiple spouses. That is insane...and not to
mention a good way to spread AIDS and other STDS...apparently polygamist people
aren't aware that this disease kills you and won't go away. If they were
honestly concerned for their childrens safety they wouldn't let their children
live that way either. I mean really how could a man live like that...and why
would a woman accept that lifestyle.Im sure if they wanted to they could leave
and choose to not live like that.
is closer to being a Pimp than a prohet , he was caught in a ride, digging the
scene with a ganster lean, sun roof top , money in a bag ooh oooh
What I don't understand is why are the men the only ones allowed to marry so
many wives? Why are the women ruled over so dominantly? Did anyone see Larry
King last night? The men wouldn't even come out!! They made the women speak
and they wouldn't even answer questions about where their husbands are at!
Texas has spent so much money on welfare paid to these people. If their lives
are so pure, why are there "sex beds" in the churches? You could clearly tell
these women are brainwashed! I can understand them wanting to live
apart, and worship God, but God condemns multiple marriages, and if they so
worship God so much, why last night when they showed inside their house, are
there pictures of Warren Jeffs everywhere? Why not pictures of God or Jesus?
I am glad I am not one of them b/c I would be danged having men tell
me what to do whey they got to screw around with every other woman in the
"ranch!" All this is is a big pimp parade and the children are paying the
I think its pretty obvious that the women have been put to the front to bear the
consequences...where are the men?...this question was asked of them, and they
all avoided the question...I think they have all been brain-washed, and its
difficult to believe in this day and age that ppl can be so blind as to the
nonsense thats being forced down their throats..
are aware of some these blogs by members , they are down right scary...i will
keep an eye on my daughter of 13 as we travel the state..it pays to read between
These people are doing their job, and there was good reason to do it. It's not
all a bowl of cherries at the ranch. I think they are desperate to invite
reporters in and give those rehearsed speeches, all with the sobs, clutching of
foreheads, and so on. They are being dishonest in acting that way, and I think
the children deserve to be raised in an honest, ethical environment. Obviously,
it's the abuse and neglect that is the heart of the issue, but the playacting
For all of you who are so outraged about what's happening,Google the Texas
family code. you'll see that everything CPS did was not only perfectly
legal, but it was legally required of them.
The DMN can practice all their un-american censorship to protect the church
from american free speach but everyone knows that mormonism is responsible for
these terrible events.
I say do all that you can to put an end to all sex cults.
This entire situation was and is clearly being handled wrong. Assumptions,
allegations, jumping to conclusions, acting on instinct, we are doing everything
that law school and our constitution would consider unethical. Motivations - I understand that - and I am a sociology major, I am usually
fighting for the underdog, and agreeing when people disagree, but in this case,
the prioity is backwards. The priority should be the aspect or the
practice of Polygamy. This is the main issue, this is what is causing poeple to
see the "bad" things that are apparently going on, but the attention is directed
to the wrong individuals. Like a former commentor wrote, the Men
should have been questioned from the begining. If we are worried about the
children being abused and scared, our recent actions have only made that worse.
come on now officials, get with the program, is this how you would
execute a large scale project in a corporation? No! It would be a mess. There
is no planning, no structure, no order, and absolutely no regard for human
rights! what the heck is that??? America - let's not give others ammunition to
judge us more...let's THINK before we ACT -
Polygamy is already defacto legal in the US. Why else are all the babydaddys
with multiple children by multiple women still allowed to roam the streets?Like it or not there has also been a defacto repeal of the statutory rape laws
as long as the acting male is also underage. We have legalized underage sex for
children in imitation of chimps who practice play sex when young since of course
there is no god, and we are all just smart animals anyway.The fact that
young girls lives are just as ruined by having a baby with a thirteen year old
father as with a 50 year old father is overlooked by our society in the pursuit
of some sort of mythic feminist quest for sexual parity. Which until men start
having the babies is just that, a myth. If abuse took place the men need to be
prosecuted, but by golly we better start locking up the baby daddies also. The
law is supposed to apply equally to all, and it doesn't anymore.
The Texas "Authorities" entered the compound using a warrent that was based upon
what appears to be a fabrication. The party accused in the warrent was known to
law enforcement and in constant contact with an officer of the court over 800
miles away.And now these 'Authorities" are attempting to terminate
400+ child/parent relationships?There was no probable cause. A
simple computer backgound search on the accused name would have yeilded the
accused mans probation officer's phone number. One computer check on the name
of the accused before a 100+ person blitzkrieg. Is that asking to much? NO! A
single phone call to a probation officer before abducting 400+. Is that asking
to much? NO!! The Texas "Authorites" did not make a good faith
effort to corroborate the grounds for the search warrent. QED the warrent was
illegal and invalid.What is next? I hope the Amish in Pennsylvania
are hiring lawyers. I hope home-schooling parents who teach their children
"Creation" are ready to loose their children. I hope all the LDS in this
country are ready to have their temples searched because one of the "North
Temple" protesters picked up a pay phone.
Hmong practice polygamy and marry underage girls.US doesn't stop the
Hmong.Its only white groups that must be stopped from having children.
I have been attempting to understand this situation based on an understanding of
the fallen nature of humankind. Looking at the various players in the scene,
for starters we have the polygamists accused of statutory rape. Unregenerated
man throughout history has sought out sex with females of all ages, males,
animal species, and inanimate objects. Is it believable that underneath all
that pioneer charm and piety lurks machinery for the satisfaction of lust?
Sure. We have CPS accused of vague, unspecified wrongdoing. CPS is widely
considered to be as corrupt and inefficient as any other bureaucracy. Does CPS
have a financial interest in increasing their clientele and their visibility?
Sure. Then we have law enforcement. They are accused of acting on a whim,
arresting and detaining all the wrong people, and violating their rights. Law
enforcement is hanged if they do and hanged if they don't. For "rescuing"
(detaining) 400 children, have they chosen the group that exposes them to the
least risk? Sure. White nonconformist fundamentalists. Their selection of
this group appears strategic. Society is conditioned to dehumanize groups such
as FLDS by mass media. LE gets to appear brave while not offending vocal
special interests. Not exactly brave.
To Polygamy hurts my child-Didn't you read about the hundreds of thousands
of dollars those lazy buggers have been paying to government in property taxes
alone?What really hurts your child is having to grow up in a country where
citizens so willingly give up the rights of "others" in the name of safety "for
the children". "He who gives up essential liberty for temporary safety deserves
neither liberty nor safety"
If the state of Texas was looking at this ranch and gathering info for 4 years
..maybe they are guilty of child abuse by letting it go on for so long. But it
seems that 4 yrs is a long time to decide to raid the ranch and only after
someone made a snitch call. Judge not lest you also will be judged!
When I was a single parent having been left my child's father, I tried to get
food stamps and temporary assistance so I could meet my child's special needs
and find a way to start a home business to support us. My child's father had
threatened to take my child to a foreign country if I named him as the father.
So, I was reluctant to name him. I was told that I could not receive assistance
if I did not name him. I was also told that my child could not be homeschooled
if assistance were provided for him. But, the public schools could not meet his
needs and refused to consider accommodations. I am still a single
mom and have been paying taxes for years, as I did before that brief period when
I needed assistance. I am paying for those men's children that they won't
acknowledge and for children of the women who choose to or are forced by men
into polygamy such that they have too many children to support and don't work
outside the home. I would like to stay home too, but I work partly to pay so
Get your head out of the sand. Waco is non-sequitur. The only comparison is the
idiots at the head of both organizations. They're Wac(k)o.
I wonder when the government will wake up to the real threats to our society,
and look in on other religions, sects, terrorist sympathizing organizations and
their "beliefs". When will the government break in on the Muslims and separate
the mothers from the children in the "sharia law" society? These FLDS folks
aren't trying to gain control of society outside them as are the Muslims.
Priorities need to be examined. I guess that all depends on who gets to set the
As I read this all that keeps going threw my mind is my three little girls. The
idea of a 16 yr old BOY touching my 16 yr old girl makes me sick much less a
50yr old man. A song from my childhood keeps going threw my head. PLEASE
DON'T LET THEM HURT YOUR CHILDREN WE NEED LOVE AND SHELTER FROM THE
STORM PLEASE DONT LET THEM HURT YOUR CHILDREN WONT YOU KEEP US
SAFE AND WARM.THATS OUR JOB AS PARENT TO PROTECT ALL CHILDREN!!
This Texas government officials vs. YFZ FLDS religious zealots offers further
support to my decision to abandon my returned LDS-missionary, temple covenanted
past in favor of agnostic/atheistic belief. In this incident I see further
proof that the worst atrocities of one group of humans against another are
usually done "in the name of God." Our Founding Fathers, the wisest
of whom affiliated with no particular religion, advocated altering or abolishing
a government that interferes with its peoples unailenenable right to life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness.If polygamy were legal, then
its supporters could practice in mainstream society rather than creating
isolated communities of inbred, brainwashed believer. If prostitution were
legal then the high-libido male could obtain a sexual balance to compensate for
his partner's inadequacies without having to brainwash young girls to accept an
pervert's desire. Abolish socialized transfer payments and then there will be no
opportunity for welfare fraud. In a society of true liberty, a
productive, benevolent man should be allowed to care for all he is capable of.
A dead beat could neither provide for nor attract any mates. Liberty is natural.. give us liberty.
Let justice be served. The sheer magnitude of cases means that this isn't
going to be over in a few days, but I believe the ones being hurt, the ones in
danger of being hurt, will be saved. And those committing the crimes will be
punished.By the way, the crying mothers are just as responsible for the
abuse as the men because they allowed it to happen. If a woman lets child
abuse happen to her child in any other situation, they would be arrested &
charged with neglect, if nothing else. Why should this be any different?
I don't get why everyone is bashing TX. They are following protocol, as best
they can. 90% of you people don't GET that the children were removed to PROTECT
them. If abuse is reported & evidence is found to support it, CPS in ANY state
would remove the child. You keep complaining that what the state did was so
wrong and shame on them & these children should be with their mothers. Right or
wrong, that's not how CPS works. They are looking out for the best interest of
the children, in the long run. Yes, being away from someone they've known is
traumatizing, but if the efforts of CPS save one young girl from becoming a
slave, then good for TX & CPS.
Well, it's pretty obvious from the comments on this story that the people of
Utah have more problems than just the FLDS. They have a lot of people who are
in serious denial about polygamy and child abuse. Warren Jeffs is in jail in
Utah, then Merrill Jessop tried to set up the cult again in Texas, but the
Texans stopped him. These women and children from Eldorado are going to need a
lot of help to get deprogrammed and reintegrated into more normal society, and I
hope that they will be welcomed back in Utah, and that the LDS will send
missionaries and social workers to help them get educated. Jessop and these
other older men need to go to jail with Jeffs. It will take a while to sort all
this out, so be patient, folks.
Okay, so if a girl under age 16 gets pregnant, it is "child abuse". So, why
aren't the parents of all the pregnant teens in Texas removed from their homes
as well? At least these girls are married! These poor children, taken away
from their mothers, it is a disgrace! CPS is always making mistakes in this
state, they take away the wrong children and leave other children in horrible
abusive situations. A mother on drugs is an abusive situation! I have yet to
hear of any real abuse that was going on, give these mothers back their babies!
And by the way, I don't agree with polgamy, but how is it any different from
homosexuals and adulters with children? I love the state of Texas, but this is
OK i just wnat to point out a little fact, my daughter is a senior at lake view
and the baby rate here is extremly high,thier is a girl on her 4th child and
many more ready to pop out a baby,she is not married nor have a job so who do
you think pays for her 3babys right now thats you we do, at least these people
were not on the welfare system,And so what if they don't live in the 20th
centery, good for them,Let them have thier kids back, if it wasnt for you
anscetors who who old maids at 16 you would not be her today. they live in the
old ways,and people to this day still have pre arranged marriges, but you need
to stop and think were they really married to this men, i dont think spiritaul
is a marriage in the real world.I use to be proud to be a texan now i'm
ashamed.and why hasn't anyone being arrested? for rape or abuse makes nosence,
and how many kids a negelated here in S.A. everyday?100's Why isn't cps doing
something about that ?This make me so mad,
There are neither Andrea bathtub-killer Yateses nor Susan
drowns-her-kids-in-the-car Smiths in the FLDS communities. Also, FLDS children
do not have autism at epidemic rates found in mainstream society. FLDS children
don't need Ritalin. FLDS children don't deal in drugs, much less even use any.
And FLDS children don't go postal and kill each other at school. In fact, where
regular society is over-run with every stripe of inbred, FLDS communities thrive
healthily in body, mind, and spirit. There are messages here for all the
anti-family, anti-male, anti-religion, dim-witted travelers. Maybe the home
kitchen is healthier than fast food. Maybe home-schooling prevents child
assassins. Maybe family life is an antidote to the wretched Britney "crotch"
Spears of the world. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the only overweight FLDS
women are the anti-polygamy activist rejects who need make-overs before
appearing on TV news shows. From my viewpoint, America needs more communities
like this and less of bankrupt mainstream society. Sure, the FLDS may have some
bad apples, but certainly not as many as in mainstream society. When we judge,
we judge ourselves. I think every lawman and official in Texas responsible for
this raid should have their children taken away from them.
Pat said the right thing. The men should have been taken and hauled off to
jail and questioned. The women and children should have stayed put on the YFZ
Ranch and questioned there. Was there child abuse going on?(Older men having
sex with underage Girls). I believe there was. I believe the women were being
forceably (brainwashed) into believing that their children had to be married and
have children as soon as they were able to have children themselves. Rather than fight the YFZ on polygamy charges, the lawmakers in Texas
probably thought this would be a better and quicker way to get into the YFZ
Ranch and close it. Will they ever find the 16 year old girl who made the phone
call???I read the article today (4-14) about the Texas CPS confiscating
all the cell-phones after the images of the sleeping arrangements hit the papers
yesterday. They (CPS) are just trying to CYA as best they can.People
should say a prayer for the kids who are caught in the middle of this mess.
Has anyone stop really listen to the press thier has been no arrest,Why? they
can't find the 16 year old girl ,WHY? and the town been watching them for 4
year,why did they allow this to go on for 4 years? cause it not true, maybe it
just away for them to get them off thier land so that THAT TOWN CAN TAP IT FOR
OIL?But i see everyday how these kids are kept and now i think they are in
prison it is horrible how the cps has got them, I have listen very closely to
whats going on, they need our help, and we has americans need to keep our noses
out of very one bussiness, please america help me help them,I live right down
the road where they are housing these kids and i tell you it is horrible.
What have the authorities in Texas done? They have these poor children begging
to go home. Let them go!!! If these children choose to tell you they were
abused and by whom, then arrest and prosecute that person. These children have
suffered enough though the Texas Government that does not have the right to
expect these children to live outside of their domain. Shame on you Texas!!!!
You now have the EYES OF THE WORLD UPON YOU.
FLDS are attacked for polygamy. It, polygamy, is against the law of the
land. Illegal immigration is against the law of the land, also.Yet we give it a pass.How many children have been harmed
because of this? Living in shadows, mom and dad on the run full time...never
encouraged to assimilate.It's a given the FLDS women are
psychologically duped, but how is this different from Islam? The Burka? Male
theocratic psychosis running amok.Islam allows 4 wives and as many
secondary wives as one desires. There are MULTIPLE occasions where it is going
on here in America. Where is the outrage? The U.K., Germany, and
Canada have already shown to be clear in allowing Islamic Polygamy to stand and
thrive. If we are going to 'enforce' the 'law of the land' can we
PLEASE be consistent and enforce ALL OF IT. Illegal Immigration, polygamy, etc.
None of this 'buffet style' picking and choosing.Give the land to
the women and children, and IMPRISON the MEN and however many complicit women
are there also.
How come no one has mentioning on here that Warren Jeffs, who was the Prophet of
the FLDS church has admitted that he was a false prophet. He was thier leader.
So this says these FLDS polygamist are all living a lie and are as well
adulterous child abusers. Warren Jeffs even admitted to incest with his sister,
and who know who else. These people are wicked and BAD! Go for it
TEXAS! You have my support!
By the time the state of Texas looks at all the evidence, including birth
certificates and testing DNA if necessary, it most likely will have plenty of
evidence to arrest several men on charges of statutory rape. My view is that if
women knew what was going on, then they should be considered accomplishes --
alleged accomplices for now, of course. Thus, they should not be allowed
anywhere near children, especially children that were the result of polygamous
relationships. I believe that that non-polygamous men who sire children by
various women and then don't support them should be in the same place as where
the polygamists ought to be -- in prison until they vow to change their ways.
Mormon children today, your children tomorow. It's just one more
step towards destroying the White Race and Christianity. It's
interesting to me, that Elizabeth Segal, a Jewish lesbian who's book, "An
Introduction to Profession of Social Work - Becoming a Change Agent" has done
tons of research into the Mormon religion. In her book she spews anti white,
anti male, anti heterosexual, anti family, anti Christian, anti Protestant,
rhetoric. I am looking for connections between her and this case. Is
it being ran by some of her 'students'? Is she directly involved in some
official capacity somewhere along the line?
I agree with Texas. I only wished Utah had of stepped up to this long ago. Maybe
things would be better here in Utah and people wouldn't be trying to protect
these foolish polygamist men. I know a bit of the ugly side of polygamy. I
believe it is abusive rather anyone in Utah wants to believe this or not. Some
need to pull the wool from their eyes.
GOD BLESS TEXAS for protecting those young GIRLS. We should HANG anybody who
harms a child in any way.
what a shame that these Men of the FLDS church have taken advantage of these
young GIRLS. Every FLDS MAN found to be guilty of sex or marage to a minor child
should recive some good old TEXAS style justice. DEATH fixes all abuse to
childeren, it is the only way to stop a PEDAFILE for good. GOD bless TEXAS for
protecting those childern. Sell the ranch they all live on to pay the bills.
I have a hard time as a LDS person finding anything righteous about polygamy.
This the part of the LDS history that I do not accept in anyway. And I come down
through two polygamy ancestors. Somehow none of this sounds right to me, and I
feel like perhaps Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan.
The right of Religious beliefs???? Are you people stupid? Who cares if the
children are married at such a young age or have kids by the time they are 14,
15, 16. I can't believe that people are sticking up for that kind of abuse! I
say that it is high time that something was done about it. In our world
old men who sexually abuse kids are listed on websites and most of them have
went to jail a time or two. I don't get why some people are wanting to support
Why do polygamists marry underage girls?Does any thinking member of
society who believes in equality for the sexes in terms of education and
opportunity, feel that raising young women for the pleasure of old perverted men
who would be kicked out of the mainstream church is correct? Forget the
religious part, it's just wrong on many levels.And trying to justify by
blathering on with everything else wrong in society does not change the fact of
underage females being forced to marry"spiritually" It's called statutory
rape.Please; it is nauseating that some people can defend this by any
It's a good thing that these children who have been brainwashed since birth,
that they as well have been removed from this polygamy cult. Hopefully the
authorities can get the children to open up. Although, it may not happen because
they have been taught WHATEVER since babies. This is a horrible episode of true
brainwashing and physical abuse in the worst way possible. Hopefully Texas
authorities will win on this.
My only question to everyone on this site that is stupid enough to post a
comment about "innocent until proven guilty", is if Polygamy is against the law,
how are they not guilty. Texas officials did the right thing when they removed
innocent children from a harmful situation. The cult known as the FLDS. Yes,
they are a cult, why would they feel the need to build a giant compound if they
weren't doing something illegal and wanted to try to get away with it. You
people really need to wake up, quite being small minded and look at the big
To IN IRAQ "If there's even a threat of a child abused, whether or not there's
evidence, you move in." Have you happened to read the scientific studies that
detail the effects of the trauma on a child whom is removed from their home?
While the gov't is sorting it out they are moved to several "homes". The studies
say after the third move the child has been PERMENANTLY harmed. This harm is
often worse then any harm from the alleged abuse. Apparently you have no problem
administering known harm to a child whether or not there is evidence. Once the
state takes a child they MUST justify there actions or risk lawsuit. The
caseworker tells the child the counselor the child was abused. The child tells
counselor they weren't. The counselor recommends children remain out of the home
because they are not "opening up". Caseworker goes in front of judge and says
removal was justified and that the counselors do not recommend children going
home. I have seen this with my own eyes. WAKE UP!
Polygamy is nothing more then to control women. These particular men think they
have the right to control women so that they can have multiple sex parters, and
then these perverts try to make the rest of the world think that God Almighty
said that it was just ok for them to do this. However, God did NO SUCH THING.
Polygamy is not Christian. It is the worship of the deceptive devil himself. Religion based on deception.
How are you people so sure anyone's rights are being trampled on by the State?
Maybe you've all been tainted by my Commander in Chief and the lies that got me
to Iraq and are now hesistant to trust the Gov.It's so basic to me.
If there's even a threat of a child being abused, whether or not there's
evidence, you move in. It's just like how you can joke about a bomb at the
airport. It's so serious that you take action right away. Read, "Escape". It
tells of the abuses this cult practices on women and children.
eThe facts. Sheriff stated he was looking for a reason to enter compound.
Sheriff had plan for raiding compound BEFORE a complaint was issued. Sheriff did
not have informant on "inside". He had someone who advised him about FLDS. No
"victim" has been found. The criminal in the complaint has not been in Texas for
over a year as far as anyone knows and has not been arrested. If pregnant
teenagers equals abuse, then we need to arrest all the teachers at the local
compound, oops I mean High School. Arrest warrants have been thrown out
because they searched 414 1/2 Main St. instead of 414 Main St. Yet one anonymous
complaint justifies searching 100's of homes. The evidence so far a bed in a
church. How many priests/ministers live in the CHURCH. Whether or not
someone is guilty there WILL be charges. Texas must justify it's actions. They
will tell the children they can't go home until they admit to being abused. They
will plant thoughts then reinterview them until the child believes it to be
true. I have personally seen US social services do this. Want proof? google
Wenatchee and abuse. Who isolated women/children by taking cellphones?
I would like anyone that is complaining about polygamy to think of the benefits
that it would bring to the black inner-city where positive, male role models are
all but non-existent!! Is it better to have 1 willing and able man to stand
ready to father or is it better to be hanging out on a street corner with the
homeys? To all of you who's objection to polygamy boils down to:
It's illegal or it's yucky. Wake up!!! If you are willing to accept 2 married
men/women calling themselves a family and cannot deal with this, you are in some
serious need of examining the vacuous lack of logic between the ears. To all the trolls: I am not a polygamist and will not become one. I, however,
do have the ability to think beyond my narrow scope of experience. To you
liberals, if it truly 'takes a village' to raise a child, why is this so bad?
The only thing in here that I am against is children under the age of consent
getting married. Past that, I hope that they have a rich and rewarding life!
(Hint to the clueless: It is not just about money.)
Let me make sure I understand the legal logic of the State of Texas. They want
to take all 416 children because they need more human rights. But they want to
take all 416 at the same time because the state does not want to spend even 5
minutes for each attorney which would be like 70 hours of testimony. OK. I get
it. Each individual is not even worth 5 minutes of the State's time. Who is
the Cult here? The FLDS or the State of Texas? The state could careless about
each individual (and this because they bit off more than they could possibly
choose, so now they want to screw up hundreds of lives in their arrogance).
Way to go, Pat. Round up the MEN and carry them off!! THEY are the abusers,
not the brainwashed women and children.
The white man's burden is to end slavery and polygamy. We can't compare
ourselves to Muslims and Africans and others. Monogamy is a better way. I
concede that we probably cannot end it but they must not abuse their children
and they must be free to leave.
I have no problem with what the State did. There are so many nut jobs hiding
behind "religion" that the police could not take a chance. Remember Waco,
anyone? A lot times these religious sects like to hide because they know they
are doing something wrong. Protect the kids first at all costs.
read Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven and then you will understand that
Texas is brave enough to end the generations of mothers and daughters that are
brainwashed. These mothers are understandably distressed about their young
children, but it's time this abuse was ended. These girls are in for a shock
when they reach puberty and then where will the concerned mothers be?
mothers who allow grown men to have sex with and marry their children are
enablers and cant see the damage. i would err on the side of caution and remove
the children as well. most all women love and want to protect their babies, but
even women outside of polygamy have a hard time recognizing or removing
themselves from abusive situations that involve them or their children. if its
all they know, then it's not abuse in their eyes. i'm not judging their
religion or way of life. i really dont care. but its no secret that incest and
pedophilia are alive and well within these ranches and that is something that
should never be okay - no matter what religion.
First, The government should have left those kids with their mothers and
seperated all the men to another area in the property. The next thing to do
should have been to conduct the investigtions to see who committed a crime. Take
away the criminals and leave the others alone. I am not sure why the liberals
are mad at this sitauation as this sounds like the dream of a 60's hippie feee
love communial life style.
If this were a compound with 1700 Muslims in it the "Brilliant Ones" in the
press and the Universities would be falling all over themselves defending them.
The out cry would be deafening, there would be riots and bombings. The same thing is practiced all over the world in Islam by hundreds of
millions of people and no one bats an eye. At least the FDLS isn't raising
sucide bombers. Just wait till the lawyers figure out how to hold TX
accountable for trashing these people's rights. Where was the emergency? Tx is
going to have to pay big bucks for this screwup. This has been going on for
decades! Could have been handled much better.You may not like the
polygimists but remember this: First they came for you and I did nothing, then
they came for my neighbor and I was silent. Now they come for me.
Any 20,30, 40, 50 etc. year old man that enters into a "spiritial marriage" with
a child of 13,14,15, 16... is a problem.
How I know this is really about religion:One allegation, made
against one man, somehow resulted in the kidnapping of 400+ children, and only
because there werent more. Did they arrest any suspects? The allegation was
made against one. Lets throw in some more just for good measure. Lets just say
they found evidence implicating 10 men. Instead of removing or arresting 10
men, they kidnapped over 400 children. Logical? No. Persecution?
Undoubtedly.How convenient for the government that they had an
allegation upon which to base this mass kidnapping. How convenient that they
were able to ransack peoples homes and all they found was a bed in a Temple,
when they havent even found the rumored whistle-blower. How convenient that so
many people are so quick to condemn these people for their lifestyle, their
beliefs, etc., that they will be willing sycophants for the Texas Gestapo.They believe in polygamy! They must pay! They believe in removing
themselves from society! They must pay! Some have left the group and made
accusations against them! Never mind vetting those accusations, They must
pay!!If this was about abuse, they would have arrested a few
individuals. But its not.
aww, shux....was ridin' over there on my horse, to join up....dang
The problem these people have is that they are the wrong religion. Had they been
Muslims, the Feds would have hightailed it in the opposite direction.
i wish the kids in my neighborhood were cared for as well as the kids in this
compound. its more of a crime to see whats going on with abuse of children in
the ghetto's across america. kids are starving and left alone with no clothes
while the parents are out doing drugs and gangbanging. all this with no
religion. this whole thing in texas seems absurd. i can see why people are
comparing this to nazi germany. a police state. let these people go home and
live their lives. and for all you judgemental people who think you have a say so
over someone elses life, who died and made you god?? is your life so great you
can cast judgement on others? i don't think so... what is freedom anyways? we
don't practice it in this country. i was just told by my state that lap dances
are now illegal. costa rica, here i come, the usa is no longer a free country.
oh yeah!! is it still ok to say merry christmas? i think some places will arrest
you for that.
Mcam,Well said.But,if you defend the mothers by saying that this is
what they were raised to believe, therefor they couldn't act against it, then
you can't say the men are all pedo's. Same logic must apply
Human Puppy Mill -- Ha -- Good one.Add "private brothel for dirty
old men."While you're yowling about violation of rights and the
constitution and crying crocodile tears for the children parted from their
mothers, think about the deflowering of a twelve year old girl by a fifty year
old man -- and the mothers who let this happen to their little girls. That this kind of sexual abuse and slavery could be ignored for so many years
in America is what is disgusting.
Notice the "child" angle the FLDS church is trying to take. They're distracting
us away from their unlawful acts with their innocent, abused children. They
must be paying big buck$$ for their lawyers. That's good spin advice.As for the Due Process, I'm sure the authorities are following the rules with
this situation being watched on a global basis.
A sick world with a few sick people. No religion involved. Just sick perverted
old men who like to have sex with little girls. Somehow this makes these old
never minds feel a bit more important as OLD man. Well, not men by any means.
Real men don't have sex slaves. No real religion has sex slaves. Only the
gutters of city slums.
This is an abomination. One charge, made by one supposed 16 year old girl who
has yet to materialize, has somehow justified the kidnapping of over 400
children. This revolting disdain the human rights is the work of a communist or
fascist regime. Karl Marx would be proud at the precedent set for the ease with
which the government may abduct your children. No proof. No credible
accusation. And the accusation doesnt even have to be made against you, just
somebody who lives in your neighborhood. OH WHAT THE HECK!!! TAKE ALL THE
CHILDREN!!!I can hear Janet Reno lamenting that they didnt manage to
bring in the tanks and flammable gas so they could burn down the whole place and
any remaining victims, conveniently hiding their lack of evidence.Oh, but were clearing the world of those pesky cultists!Define
cultist. All religions start as what some would consider a cult. For many
people (including some who have posted here), a cult is any religion which you
find disagreeable.Who makes some people such authorities, that they
can pass judgment like this? You must be arrested, kidnapped, shot, crushed, or
burned alive because I dont like your religion.
this just proves there are just as many right wing nuts as left wing nuts in
Sure, polygamy is against the law, but none of the children being held against
their will without charges are polygamists. Their parents may be, but they're
just little kids. And the men who ARE polygamists have not been charged or
detained. Never mind that we can't find a plaintiff in the case, let's punish
the innocent without due process and let the perpetrators walk--is this the
American you're telling them to join? I guess they would need counseling to get
onboard with an outfit like that.
First they supported the mobs as they raped, murdered, pillaged, and drove the
MormonsBut I did not complain because I was not a MormonThen
they stormed Ruby RidgeBut I did not complain because I was not a member
of the Weaver family.Then they laid siege on the Branch DavidiansBut I did not complain because I was not a Branch Davidian.Then
they took Elian Gonzalez away from his grandparents at gunpoint, to return him
to CubaBut I did not complain because I have never lived under the boot of
a communist dictator.Then they came for the innocent children of the
Yearning for Zion communityBut I did not complain because I am not
FLDS.And when they came for me, there was no one left to help me.
Remember Waco.It all begins with the "government" being concerned for the
"well-being" of the people in the compound.When the para-military arrives
with tanks and assualt vehicles, then it had to have been the fault of the folks
in the compound.This will happen to every church in the US when the NWO
forces them to bow to the AntiChrist.It is just a matter of time until
they reach your house.
NO ONE IN THE USA IS DENIED THE RIGHT TO MARRY MULTIPLE SPOUSES AND HAVE
CHILDREN BY EACH be carefull not to condem ye aduterers>
The mother said that she did not know why they took her children. Well, yes she
knows. She knows that the lifestyle that she has chosen and put her children
into is illegal. Mr. Deseret comments how nice the homes of FLDS was. Well
yeah, this immoral world (to quote Hal), this lewd and abusive government has
been supporting all wives except wife #1 and all children for years. Does God
condon theft by deception. Of course they do not live in the main stream. If
our government programs don't ask, these sects will definately not tell. I may
cost them several big, modern houses, a temple, several acres and all the perks.
If they chose to live this lifestyle; I do not want my tax dollars supporting.
The government doesn't support me in the manner that these people have become
accustom to. They should have to pay back the money with interest and
penalties or live in some other country that approves or allows that lifestyle.
Such as third world countries with no government aide programs. I blame all of
the adults that preach right from wrong to their children.
How is it that so many people are able to ignore the systematic abuse within
this cult/group? Forcing young girls to marry, kicking out young boys to limit
competition, consumating marriages in the temple? If this community existed
without calling itself a religion, the entire nation would be up in arms about
allowing a community of pedophiles to exist. Stop falling for the PC crap -
this is child abuse plain and simple, not religious freedom. The investigators
followed the appropriate procedures, did not violate the constitution (you would
know this if you actually understood the constitution, which most of you
apparently don't), and are trying to prevent a continuation of abuse.How
sick are you that you would allow this abuse to exist? I don't care how
much the moms and dads cry. If you plan to marry off your 15 yr old girl to
anyone, you are sick and belong in jail.Why did they build compounds?
Because if they didn't society would catch on sooner to their sick child abusing
society.I am disgusted at you all. You should be ashamed at yourselves.
How can you just abandon these children? Sick.
OOh, wow, craig rubins church was raided and he can't figure out why. Maybe it's
because you consider Marijuana a sacrament. Religion or not, pot is still
illegal in Texas. Rev Rubin, do I need to use smaller words or CAN YOU HERE ME
As a mother and grandmother I feel deeply for the children envolved. I'm sure
they are afraid and feel very lost but they must be protected. I have been
listening to the interviews of women who left the FLDS and if what they say is
true all of these children were at risk. I'm sure the mothers love their
children, but most of them were raised to believe that what they are doing is
right, so they are not capable of making decisions about the welfare of these
underage girls. To question whether her underage daughter should "marry" a much
older man and become his second or third wife would mean she would have to
question her whole life and everything she has been taught by her mother who was
some older mans second or third wife. The main goal has to be to protect these
children from men who are nothing more than pedophiles. If the mothers are not
emotionally equiped to do it, the government must.
Let me explain something to those of you who think that this is simply resolved
by prosecuting this group for violation of antipolygamy laws. Look,
you couldn't prosecute these people for polygamy, even if you tried. That is
because only one wife would ever be registered as a wife with the state. In the
eyes of the law, the other wives could only be considered live-in affairs at the
worst, and as we all know, the law is quite comfortable with affairs and
divorce, but not with plural marriage. In the end, if anyone goes
after them for unlawful cohabitation head on, would not the antipolygamy laws
from the 1800s most likely be struck down by the Supreme Court on the grounds of
equal protection under the law? After all, if you go after the polygamists, you
have to go after everyone that is cohabiting outside of marriage.You
see the problem? People who don't want polygamy to be legalized have a vested
interest that an unlawful cohabitation charge against a polygamist group never
sees the light of a courtroom.
Plural marriage should be legal for both men and women. The government should
get out of our bedrooms and our private lives so it can concern itself with real
problems like... well... government tyranny. But I guess that's really up to
citizens to solve. Too bad voters shunned Ron Paul -- the only forward-thinking
Republican seeking the presidential nomination.
So what's next on the agenda? Will the Texas authorities be raiding inner city
slums and rounding up unwed teenage mothers who are collecting welfare and
living a dangerous gangster lifestyle? It seems to me that the social
environment that exists there is pretty damaging?How about going to
migrant labor camps and rounding up any children who are there? Their parents
are most likely illegal aliens and prefer working to education. Many of these
children get caught up in gangs and graffiti. I don't think that would past
muster with the baptists either. Maybe the authorities in Minnesota
could round up the children of Muslim immigrants who are being taught
anti-American propaganda by their Imams. We don't want them to carry on the the
belligerent actions of their parents: Muslim cab drivers who fail to pick up
fairs with alcohol, or Target workers who refuse to allow people to purchase
pork chops or bacon.Would they raid a scout encampment and round up
all of the scouts if an anonymous caller alleged that he was a scout being
abused by one of the leaders? These actions are just plain wrong.
whynot - OK, 18 & over. What about the 14 & 15 year olds forced into
marriages? Oh, thats right, the article didn't mention them. Like it didn't
bother to mention the 200 women who immediately left of their own accord, like
it didn't mention the sect founder who is in jail for child molesting. Sorta
makes you wonder what else the article just failed to mention
Hey Texas-"FLDS and other promoters of underage marrage, can go live in
other states, particularly Utah" Utah is the one PROSECUTING the
REAL perpatrators like Warren Jeffs! DUH!
The problem with a lot of these compounds is that they abuse the children. How
do they have so many more daughters than sons? What happens to the sons? Many
girls get raped. Kids dont get their own free will. Not saying that this
happens everywhere, but it does happen at a lot of these places.The
problem with this case is that an anonymous unproven tip ended up with 400+
children being unlawfully taken away from their parents. Anyone can make an
anonymous tip without any proof out of hate or jealousy.If anyone
ever took my kids away from me for no good reason, I would definately take
matters into my own hands.I would do everything it took to get my
kids back legally for 6 months to 1 year. After that period of time, if I don't
have my kids back, I will do whatever it takes to get them back. By "whatever"
I mean "Anything goes including revenge".
You read a news story and think you clearly understand the situation. You have
no idea what is happening, and I wouldn't put it past the FLDS to make up a
bunch of nonsense. Everything is hearsay at this point, and you are eating it
up.Due process is required BY LAW. I trust my authorities are doing
the right thing, and I refuse to accept that a news story has every single
little detail about the REAL situation. Like I said, I elect my
officials. You elect yours. I'm happy with the decision. Child abusers are not
welcome in Texas.
before we all start shedding crocodile tears, lets review a few facts that this
article fails to mention. Like the nearly 200 women who left of their own accord
as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Like the 14 & 15 year old girls
forced to wed against their will AND AGAINST THE LAWS OF EVERY STATE IN THE
UNION. Like the prisoners of this sect who were never allowed outside the
compound and were lied to about life outside. This article sounds all warm and
fuzzy, no doubt a condition of entry into the compound
What happens is that we no longer see each other as fellow human beings. We see
each other as a label or category. i.e. black, white, asian, Mormon,
Evangelical, racist, loser, illegal immigrant, terrorist, etc, etc. It makes it
easy to disregard each other that way. When a human becomes an object, we don't
feel as guilty letting them get abused.
Seems to be a lot of people on this site support polygamy - Thank You for your
Love! As a 50 year old man, I can now breathe a sigh of relief. So can my two
14- year-old wives who love me. They chose to be with me when we fell in love 5
years ago. I'm happy to say that we're expecting. Even better, their
pediatrician told me that we're expecting boys! Amen and thanks for the
supportive words. I'll read them these letters and maybe some day, we'll teach
them to read the letters on their own. God bless!
I accidentally posted twice early but I'd like to add I totally disagree with
chilren or anyone for that matter being forced into marriage or raped or any
violations of someones personal freedoms. I just have not heard any proof of
that anywhere yet and seems to me the government acted without due cause. I mean
what if your 16 year old gets mad at you and decide to throw out some accusation
without any proof other than that should the government be allowed to come in
and ripp your home and life apart.I think this is a severe abuse of power. I
think its scares me anytime our government starts saying your guilty without any
evidence other than a phone call.These cases like this set a terrible precident.
I also want to know whats in the water down there in lonestar state 1st Waco now
Sounds like classic FLDS behavior was going on at that ranch, putting their own
religion ahead of the secular law. Sorry, but the rights of adults to practice
their religion as they see fit are superseded by the rights of children to grow
up without being abused.When you have teens becoming pregnant,
children are being abused. That's a fact. Can anyone here say in good conscience
that you don't believe the FLDS accepts polygamy and sex with girls under 18?
You know they do. They are the reason much of America considers LDS a lawless
and non-Christian cult, and you contribute to this perception when you defend
them in any way.
My church was raided too. There is no freedom of religion in America. This
raid is crazy. I am not a polygamist...my wife would kill me...but
what happened to due process? They can't find the person who made
the complaint. The man who the complaint was made about is from another state
and has never been to TX. These people cost taxpayers
nothing...now, they cost $60,000 per day. Where is the freedom and justice?
It seems reading comprehension is a problem here. Yes, the initial raid was
made because of anonymous complaints - but the government has the responsibility
to protect children and this girl seemed legitimately traumatized. But, keep in
mind that the authorities also had inside informants who could substantiate the
claims.But the most important fact here is this: once the Texas
Rangers were inside the ranch, they discovered widespread abuse and many
underage girls who were pregnant. At that time, they went back to the judge and
asked that the warrant be expanded and the judge agreed that the facts warranted
a total search of the property. Once the Rangers determined the extent of the
abuse, they saw no other recourse than to remove all the children.These were NOT "jackbooted thugs" who went in with guns blazing in the middle
of the night! The parents are getting their day in court and CPS is
working hard to lessen the trauma to these children. They have provided
counselors and lawyers.The reason cellphones were confiscated is so
the parents at the ranch can't "coach" their children on what to tell the
authorities - again this is for the children's protection.
As soon as the government starts creating Death Camps, then we can start using
the term Nazi. Until then, get a grip.
Wow. They refused to address allegations of sexual or physical abuse, yet they
have no problems accusing the government of abuse of power. I don't know if
that's an example of irony or idiocy.
Last I checked it was a federal offense to practice polygamy. We had the
military sent out to Utah after us, so why have these idiots gotten a free ride
up until now? I say, they're lucky it wasn't Waco II. Get counseling and join
It's been known for years, if not decades, that the FLDS sexually exploits
children in the name of their so-called "religion". I would think
that Law Enforcement would have their collective act together on this, and when
they've completed their interviews of the women & children we'll get further
Whether you agree with their religon or practices or not; the bottom line- this
all starts with a phone call from a girl that STILL HAS NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED. Just like the WMD in Iraq... we went in on a supposition because we
'knew they were there' and did we find any...and was America judged for it. I believe America will be judged yet again. Sure they've found 'other
crimes' but we've violated these peoples Right to Privacy on an accusation that
can't be substantiated. I suspect they lived apart because they knew
their way of life was not mainstream; and frankly I'm glad. I can think of quite
a few religious beliefs and practices I'd love to see disappear!
If sodomites and lesbians can have their practices protected why not
CONSENTING(18 and older) polygamists?
Just because they did not get married does not mean that they are not breaking
the laws against polygamy. They chose to do all of this in a state with common
law marriage. Three elements must be present to form a common law
marriage in Texas. First, you must have "agreed to be married."Second, you must have "held yourselves out" as husband and wife. You must have
represented to others that you were married to each other. As an example of
this, you may have introduced you partner socially as "my husband," or you may
have filed a joint income tax return.Third, you must have lived together
in this state as husband and wife.
This is target p[ractice. Wait until you are part of the next "undesirable"
group that the government wants to "explore". It won't be long because it seems
eveyone has got some politcally incorrect something that is unappealing to
someone else, and anyone can call anonymously about you and report SOMETHING--
everything from dog control, to child abuse, to tax fraud. Have fun people, the
roller coaster is just getting started.And BTW I pary for these
Some Quick Observations:* This raid was precipitated by an alleged
call from a girl that authorities can't produce or even prove exists. * There's no way of knowing who made the call--if a call was indeed ever
made.* The alleged call allegedly named a man as the criminal, but
women and children were rounded up and taken away while the men remain free and
uncharged.* Mothers with ID and birth certificate in hand are being
denied access to their children.* Hundreds of women and children are
being detained without charges (if only they were Muslims, we could accuse them
of terrorism and send them to Guantanamo).* Authorities have taken
all cell phones from those women and children being held. This in a country
where even convicted murderers get one call.* These and many other
obtuse miscarriages of the law have been widely publicized by a media that,
rather than asking questions, has merely consumed and regurgitated the news.* Millions of Americans have followed this story without a thought to
the fact that those involved are being denied their legal rights as American
citizens.Whatever happend to us, America? Seriously?
Read the book by Merrill Jessop's ex-wife. Good grief people. Merrill Jessop
should be locked up, along with the other men.
I think it is far past time on cleaning out the polygamy cults. Too bad there
have to be so many kids born to these perverts. These men are not normal men in
So barely 15 years after the murderous attack on Waco, where dozens died in a
self-righteous attack by government agents, the government was again at it.
Without search warrant or prior public hearings, the Children Welfare Department
scooped down and dragged innocent children away from their mothers.This
outrageous attach should be the incentive for a long overdue review of this
governmental agency, that for so long has been allowed to trample on the
God-given natural rights of every American, guaranteed by the Constitution.Let's take back our country from the Nanny State, before it destroys us.
This is Texas telling the FLDS to get out. I'm sure they'll listen after this.
FLDS, and other promoters of polygamy and forced underage marriages, can go live
in other states, particularly Utah. I'd rather they stay out of
mine. I applaud the governor. You elect yours. I elect mine.
Everyone is forgetting one thing. Polygamy is against state and
federal law. When they broke the law they opened themselves up to
the authorities. It was inevitable that they would be held to account in some
way. The FLDS have brought ALL of this on themselves. Merril Jessop is a
cruel and ambitious man who cloaks himself in a fake "holiness" and refuses to
It was wrong to remove all the children from their homes. These little ones will
be traumatized by this government abuse for the rest of their lives. The
investigation could have taken place without removing the children from their
homes.I remember when Florida CPS was out of control under Fl. State
Attny. Gen. Janet Reno and all parents were guilty until proven innocent. Many
children removed from their homes on the flimsiest of allegations.I
remember Waco and the Branch Davidians. All killed by the government on
exagerated charges so the BATF could justify a bigger budget. I
remember Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. FBI shot his son and wife, because
'they were those religious gun nuts'.As a home schooling Christian,
I wonder when my door will be knocked down and my children taken away because of
an anonymous complaint from someone who doesn't like me or the way we live. And
if I resist, and am killed, I won't be there to help you when its your turn.
IF CRIMES WERE COMMITED,CHARGE THE INDIVIDUALS,PROVE THE CASE. THE WAY THIS HAS
BEEN HANDLED IS WRONG AND DANGEROUS!. WHAT MESSAGE IS BEING SENT? JACK BOOTED
THUGS WILL RAID YOUR HOME AND DRAG YOU AWAY IF SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS AN
ANONOMUS PHONE CALL IS RECIEVED SAYING SOMETHING ILLEGLE IS OCCURING? DO THEY
(LAW ENFORCEMENT) WANT MORE WACOS? NOT EVERY HOME WILL BE "PUSHOVERS". GOD HELP
US ALL! BUY MORE AMMO!
Adult males sexually abusing under-age girls is illegal, a felony! What part of
this do FLDS members not understand? The issue here is NOT polygamy, though that
is also illegal. Its about adults abusing children sexually and trying to
justify it by citing some bush "religion"! I salute the Texas officials, they're
doing what had to be done. Its going to be a long, tough case, because FLDS will
attempt a cover-up. But they won't succeed.
From what I've read, "What Rights" is correct; they investigated this girl's
call (sobbing, obviously distraught), and found young girls pregnant, and
(supposedly), some with several children already. One of the church elders is
apparently serving time in Arizona for conspiracy to have sex with a minor. Regardless of whether or not you think freedom of religion extends to
polygamy (if you read Nonie Darwish's book you'll see how polygamy has destroyed
trust and families in Muslim countries), an underage girl pregnant is WRONG;
don't tell me laws were passed to target this group. Sex with youths is wrong
and has been wrong for a long time.If the authorities saw a pattern
of this on the ranch, that's surely probably cause for a complete search. The
reason the kids were taken I'm sure is over concern that instead of stopping
this pattern, everyone knew about it; speaks of complicity in committing the
crime (sex with a minor).
Yet another group that have replaced reason for belief in yet another version of
the 'sky god'. This time using him to endorse their claim on reproductive rights
with groups of females. Where did we see this before? They should not be
allowed to brainwash their kids. But then, this kind of 'unreason' (belief in a
sky god) is so widespread and persistent in this world, that chances of a cure
Wow! Another raid by jack booted thugs against women and children is Texas. Well
at least Janet Reno wasn't there to send in the tanks this time around.Funny thing, Muslims are allowed to have multiple wives. Do you think none of
the practicing Muslims in this country are taking advantage of it? Of course
they are. The fact is the authorities will NEVER take action against them.
This from the lawyers for the no longer great state of Texas "Attorneys
for the children told the judge this weekend that cell phones needed to be
removed to prevent 'improper communication, tampering with witnesses and
interference with the attorney-client relationship.' So, I guess the
"stolen children" no longer can have contact with their mothers.
I feel so torn on this issue. As the mother of 2 daughters - 2 and 4 years old,
I can't imagine being apart from them and not knowing if I would lose custody of
them. My kids are my life . . . I feel for the children involved - how scared
they must be -and the parents who are worried about losing their kids.But on the other hand if there are underage LITTLE GIRLS being "married" to
older men, in my opinion that is nothing more than a pedophile raping a little
girl and that needs to stop.
Right on, Nation of Laws. You have said it all. Find the girl, if she exists.
Let the others have their God-given right to their religion.
I think this is just difficult in every sense.Do they promise underage
girls, yes, I was "promised" at 7 YO for later when I was 14, but my mother got
me away. Even then at 16 they tracked me down and sent pictures of the man I was
"promised" to. So I know that part is true.I don't much care what happens
to the parents, they knowingly set this up and supported it.However,
traumatizing 400 children just cannot be the right answer.These children will
never feel safe or trusting again. I think the power of the State
went a little crazy, and I hope somebody has some common sense soon. But do you
send them back to this totally controlled, restricted, unrealistic situation?How do you give them back trust, safety, normalicy?Time for
a modern day Solomon.Why haven't these cults been treated like James
Jones or David Koresh? Because they are clean and polite, its different? A
cult,is a cult, is a cult, is a cult.
Is the government funding this organization through some program or welfare
payments ? I got that impression through one news report. Crimes against
children trump finances. What do these people do for a living ? Does our
government make this possible? Follow the money.
Do you people read? This is not about religion. This is about sexual and
physical abuse of children.
Well...look on the bright side: the last time the government raided a church
compound in Texas, a lot of men, women, and children ended up dying as a result.
I think that, too, was done in the name of "helping the abused children".
It's sickening to the core, but at least they haven't killed anyone or burned
the place to the ground (yet).
First, I think that the very small children do belong with their mothers -
especially if there is no evidence of abuse. That said - I don't care how many
wives a man wants, but those wives should be over the age of 18 and enter
polygamy without being forced. This sounds like a bunch of pedophiles who are
hiding behind religion to have sex with girls. These thirteen and fourteen year
old girls are brainwashed and told that it's the only way they'll ever get to
Heaven. Disgusting. I think that the mother in the article that complains that
authorities are ignoring the law is laughable - their whole lifestyle is built
around ignoring the laws of the land. Again - marry as many adult women as you
can talk into it - but leave the little girls alone.
(1) If my religion compels me to kill you, am I free to practice it? Freedom of
religion isn't license to break the secular laws.(2) Polygamy leaves
a "bachelor herd" with little hope of marrying. Young men with no prospects are
dangerous.These are not laissez faire lifestyle choices. These
actions have consequences which are destructive to the culture as evidenced by
other current world affairs.Fifty year-old men bedding barely
post-pubescent women isn't love, it isn't pedophilia as (biologically, at
least) these aren't children. It is perversion. Even in countries where
arranged marriages are common and successful, you do not have this
arrangement.(Where are all the feminists decrying the lack of
14-year-old boys being married to fifty-something women, he asked satirically?)
This is not about religion as some have commented. It is strictly about
childhood sexual abuse.For all the women in the audience, when was
it right for you to be given away by your parents at the young age of 12-16 and
offered to a 30-50 year old man as a bride? Is this not against everyhitng the
women's right has fought for over these last centuries??(an
illegimate bride at that, as some have also commented that many of these men
don't actually marry multiple times rather they just co-habitate with them).For any guy here that thinks marrying a 12-16 year old (or co-habitating
with them if you will) is normal, you probably are already on the sex offenders
database already.Wake up people, it is not about Gov't vs. FLDS, it
is about sexual abuse!!
Since when is child rape considered free expression of religion?
Where are all those Republicans who were upset at the Elian Gonzales and David
Koresh situations? They remain silent now. This is what happens when you want
the government to take care of you---health care, schools, pay your mortgage,
etc. If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.
Most of the commentors here are missing the point, The state of Texas did not
move in because they are polygamists ( I mean, really, how long did it take to
build that compound and everyone knew they were FLDS) It is the fact that these
disturbed leaders are ordering underage girls into marriages of much older
pedophile men.That is the true crime in all of this, If they want to remain
polygamists, and all parties to a polygamous marriage are adults, who cares, but
if they are forcing kids into marriage then that is revolting, and violates
dozens of our laws designed to protect children.
Come on people - wake up! I can't believe the total stupidity of so many
posters in this thread. You CAN'T round up the men because there isn't yet
concrete proof of who committed the crimes - the men would be out in 48 hours
and then the women and children would be in worse danger!It was
imperative that they remove all the children to keep them safe and to find out
exactly what was happening to them. There's no way any of the children or the
mothers would have talked while still in the confines of the ranch. Their fear
of retribution and punishment would have prevented the authorities from getting
any useful information.If this had been a Jim Jones type tragedy,
then so many of you here would be screaming "why didn't the government step in
and do something!"Oh - and you stupid libs - this has ABSOLUTELY
nothing to do with the fact that President Bush is from Texas. Making comments
like that just shows your stupidity.This article was written for the
express purpose of gaining sympathy for these evildoers - and I have no doubt
the leaders of FLDS were behind it!
F E A R Y O U R G O V E R N M E N T ! !
Here's the problem: the government KNOWS they overstepped their bounds...but
they're too stubborn to back down and lose face. Therefore, this is just going
to get uglier and uglier. They will eventually decide that they have to bring a
whole raft of charges to make the raid seem justified - and then a year later,
nearly all of the charges will be tossed out as baseless.The sad
thing is that there were probably at least a handful of children that NEEDED
some sort of intervention...but because of the ham-handed way that the
government handled this, they will have needlessly traumatized many perfectly
safe children, and probably won't even be able to properly help the ones who
needed it most.
The only blessing for the Mothers and children is that Clinton and Janet Reno
are not involved.
How come these sites all have polygamist on them trying to change everyones mind
that sex abuse of children is just ok? You guys are all nuts! The FLDS church is
a sexual, abusive, immoral cult, not a religion.
Well, I guess we should be thankful they didn't just drive a tank right intothe house , inject flammable gas and simply incinerate the women and kidslike Waco.
The government agencies and its employees at this point are the criminals. This
was totally unjustifiable. This proves suggests that no one is safe from this
type of criminal intrusion.
Could someone explain the concept of "freedom of religion" to me?Asking
this in regard to the adults there not the kids. Or has it gone the same way as
Freedom of speech?
FLDS is a cult - but in America we have freedom of religon.Polygamy
is against the law - so if Texas wishes to prosecute one of the MEN, so be
it.But rounding up the women and children and forcing them out of
their homes? What crime have these women and children committed? If the women
have consented to forcing their underage daughters into sexual relationships,
then prosecute them too! But until these ADULTS have been ARRESTED
and CHARGED for a CRIME, then how can law enforcement force these mass
First of all , one is suppose to be obeying the law not practicing polygamy
which is against the law...you just gave Utah and Arizona away. As they probably
have been letting these people vote over the original natives of both states.
What a farce! Yet worse happened to the red man and nobody gave a hoot! So run
your double standards some more but don't expect no allegiance here amongst the
people who fought for the rights to vote for the people who really needed it and
were locked out. I bet these guys were voting way before 1954 and that is what
really irks me as my children's granfather wasn't allowed too yet he recieved
high medals of honor way before that time. So you all can cry a river but these
are sick , sick people who look at a child with lust and can't control it! Who's
the Savages and who's the Dogs?
It is the responsibility of the United States Government to protect the freedom
of religion this country was founded on...not to persecute people or make laws
against people based on their religious beliefs. The reason the United States is
here (besides attempted extermination of the natives) was to guarantee religious
freedom. Just because you don't agree with a religion doesn't make it any more
important than your own beliefs. Grow up, people! Remember what our country is
We are indeed a nation of Laws and Loopholes. Laws we must obey or else, and
loopholes for the government's convenience!
Texas has arrested 400 children and almost no adult males. This is so
backwards. Since they cannot make a case against the men, they arrest the kids
thinking they will not have to come up with a case against them. At least they
are not killing them like they did in Waco, yet. Thank goodness for small
Anytime you want to know WHY something is happening, all you have to do is
"Follow the money". In other words who profits or benefits from the action. Is
this another case like the Duke Lacros team where the team where the DA is
running for re-election? Does someone with influence has a score to settle whit
the FLDS church or one of it's members? Was this action the repayment for a
campaign contribution? Hopefully the media will, "Follow The Money" and come up
with the answer as they did in the Duke case. And, I hope that those
responsible for what happened are made to pay and pay dearly for their actions.
I keep hearing from whats being posted here that this is only an attack on a
religion. Wake up people, there are reports of YOUNG teenage girls
that are pregnant or already have infants probably fathered by men in thier 40's
and 50's. They believed in marrying off young girls as soon as they reached
puberty, 12/13 years old. The majority of the children are girls. This looks like a FLDS compound for the sole purpose of creating child brides
for older men. They can claim that this is religous persecution all they want
while they are in prison for the rape of a child. They will get out of prison
as Level III sex offenders for life which will pretty much put an end to the
This video appears to be scripted, staged and rehearsed. The photography is
fine, but the content and acting is absurd. I suspect it was written by their
attorneys or male leaders. When Monica dabbed her nose with a tissue, it looked
totally fake.The point is not whether the parents get their way
without cooperating with the law. The point is the safety, physically and
mentally, of the children.Anytime you have hundreds of children,
some will be ill, some will require medication, and one or more may have to
visit a hospital, no matter where they are.Yes, the change in their
normal circumstances is bound to upset them and their parents. And, close
quarters can be stressful. However, security and legal issues must be considered
as well. CPS has been generous and practical in allowing the mothers to come and
keeping them all together more or less. Would they prefer that all the kids were
placed in temporary foster homes without the moms and with TV and so on? How
would they group them with little information about who they belong to? The kids
are also getting free legal and medical care. The complaints are
How could a DNA test prove anything? They marry their girls off to cousins and
then those cousins who have children, marry other cousins. Their DNA is
warped.This is a sick, sick, sick 'religion'. That marries
perverted, filthy 50 year old men off to virginal 14 year olds. That's not
religion. That's abuse. 50 year old men taking away a child's
innocence has nothing at all to do w/ their 'GOD'. It has everything to do with
perversion and selfish lust. period.
What I want to know if why did it take the Texas officials so long to
investigate/break up this horrid situation? 400 children? When it takes 9 months
to have a baby.. MY LORD... this has probably been going on for quite some time
and it is ashame.Nation of Laws, if you go back and read your
American History you will see that the federal government did regulate something
called polygamy..... going way back. The Federal Government also regulated and
set up laws prohibiting the marriage of one man to more than one woman.. These
federal laws have been around for quite some time and even though the
prohibition of polygamy is not written into the constitution there are federal
laws making it illegal.
Are women really so stupid as to be brainwashed by a few men? Are you feminists
who sit hear repeatedly blaming the men for these problems really advocating the
notion that somehow men are smart enough to outwit all of these poor witless
females? Wake up please! Everyone is culpable... the men AND the women.
I suggest we cut the children in half so that the state and the parents will be
satisfied with their portion.
These children were taken because Texas officials drew a correlation between
this compound and the Waco stand-off, where many children died. I'm
not condoning what happened here, I'm just saying, if you were in a position of
authority in Texas, wouldn't you take actions to show the public that you
learned from a previously horrendous outcome?Now, just like Iraq,
they are stuck with all these problems and bad PR. Now its time to start
frantically looking for a way out while saving face before it costs you
the children are relly not thair's that place was like a big orfange to me it
seams a littel scandeles dont you think?
I feel sorry for the children, because they have no control over what's going
on. But remember, both the mothers AND the fathers were taught that this was an
acceptable lifestyle. The younger, second- or third-generation men were brought
up in this community and taught that this behavior was not only acceptable but
expected. So yeah, I feel sorry for the men and boys too who were taught the
behave in a way that is truly horrible. The same people that taught the women
that being a child-bride to an older man was normal taught the men that taking
multiple child-brides was normal. Everyone was brainwashed here, not just the
Does anyone believe that the Government had proof that child abuse was goin on
for years and never did anything about it?.Better think long and hard about this
.It might be your Daycare or Church groop next,be very carefull about where you
leave your children while you are at work.
As a former narcotics detective I swore out scores of warrants based upon the
testimony of a single CRI--confidential reliable informant--whose veracity had
to be specified in the supporting affidavit. We could not act upon a single
phone call without corroborating evidence such as a follow-up drug buy(s),
either by an undercover agent or the CRI.However, when minors are
possibly involved in a criminal activity (abuse), the courts are much more
inclined to err on the side of child safety because exigent circumstances now
exist in the court's mind.So yes, an anonymous phone call from
someone purporting to be an abused 16-year old mom can be all it takes to get
the ponderous wheels of justice/injustice rolling. It sucks, but it's the best
system we've got compared to other forms of law in other countries. Freedom
isn't free because someone had to pay.
Wake up people! "A bed in the sanctuary so that marriages (often to juvenile
girls) could be immediately CONSUMMATED"??? This is about SEX. Religion my
It is iteresting how many wifes and childres a Man does have and I have never
read any thing about how many jobs the Men have. How do they Pay for the
up-keep of all the children and wifes. I heard that the welfare department pays
them every month and the more children that they have the more money that they
get. If this is true the goverment should be able to go in and do what ever, to
see when their money is going.MichiganAnn Arbor
Well, the allegations had to come from somewhere. And even if they aren't
guilty, shining a light on what exactly IS going on over at that ranch is the
first step to them being left alone in the future. Nobody's been bothering the
Amish for what seems like ages -- perhaps the FLDS in Texas can share that same
certainty after this farce.
I have nothing kind to say about any sexual and physical abuser. I also have
nothing kind to say about governmental abuse of constitutional liberties. All I
can say about the authorities in Texas is this: you had better be right!
I have sympathy for the families that have been seperated however polygamy is
illegal. The polygamous groups have been allowed to continue this practice for
too long and should not be able to live outside the law.
Are you people serious? This isn't about freedom of religion. It isn't about
religion at all. It's all about domination and control of women. You can't, in
the name of religion, force young girls to marry men four times their age. How
sick is that? The woman who had an 11-year-old will within the next couple of
years give her little girl away to be raped. Maybe you think that's OK. Most of
us don't. Thank God someone had enough courage to do something about it.
I think many of you are forgetting the idea of "enabling" in which you can be
guilty of a crime for allowing it to take place.Take for instance
the bartender who serves beyond a persons limit and that person kills someone
while driving drunk. The bartender has been proven liable in this country for
doing nothing other than his job (serving alcohol). There are times when a
reasonable person needs to have some judgement of right and wrong.Marrying your underage daughter away to an older man is child abuse, plain and
simple. Even though the mom is not directly involved in the actual deed, her
actions are criminal at best.Think of it like a woman selling her
daughter into prostitution. Even though the mom thinks it is the right thing to
do at the time(for money or whatever) does it make the act a morally correct
act? In no circumstances can I think of anytime this would be morally right. I
know it goes on, but it is not right.This is why Texas has taken the
kids from the men and women of this compound. They are both guilty of the
abuse, just in different ways.
This article is pathetic. They "interview" the mothers while the mothers refuse
to talk about abuse...which is the HEART of the whole matter. This is
irresponsible journalism. Journalists should present all angles of a story, not
let their interviewees decide what is "allowable" to talk about.Texas had reports of abuse...from the caller AND from informants. I guess all
you sympathizers want the government to ignore abuse reports.It
sounds to me like the law enforcement officials showed up and NOBODY claimed to
be the mothers of the children. Does anybody else find that a little
disturbing...oh...and exactly how did Texas take children from their mothers
when the mothers wouldn't claim the children. Texas had reports of abuse and
found hundreds of children with no legal guardianship....and Why
wouldn't the mothers claim the children???That one's pretty easy.
If a mother is 20 and a child is 8, then claiming the child is also another
report of abuse...and that is EXACTLY what they are finding out about these
children.Good job Texas!
I see the issue clearly the clue is throwing out the Constitution that gets in
the way of preserving power when a good ol boy systems power is threatened by
outsiders. As the increasing numbers of outsiders (Fundamentalists) are
perceived as a threat to the local good ol boys that have run that rural
community for generations they feel threatened as they will start losing
elections. They of course need a way to dislodge them before they took over
their community with their voting power. Hence the creation or perceptions of
some vague and phony conflict. They build up the Fundamentalism vs Feminism
conflict to preserve the local good ol. Boys power and control as the low
population in the area soon tips the balance of votes to the outsiders who are
of the Fundamentalist church and once in office will change the good ol Boy
system and they will no longer be in control.
These people are abusing their children just by the simple fact they are
sheltering them from normal lives. It's bad enough that some will have genetic
defects from inbreeding. Lets also not forget that these so called "Americans"
refuse to serve in our military! There is nothing normal about this group, how
they live and what they do to their children. The government should step in and
end this abnormal indoctrination that the pedophilic parents are engaging in.
Freedom of religion? Mass removal of citizens? All based on an allegation? For
these people, FLDS, there is no America. I hope the Texas government pays dearly
for what they have done. BTW- isn't our current leader from Texas? Makes you
Umm.. sounds to me like this is good excuse for old men to have sex with young
girls and get away with it. The moms were complicit by allowing their young teen
daughters to be raped by pedos.
Can someone be charged with polygamy if they are living with multiple "wives",
but not married in the eyes of the law (no certificate)? If that is the case, we
can arrest cohabiting people in every large city in America.
This reminds me of something George Carlin (comedian) once observed: Americans
have no RIGHTS, merely privileges that are "suspended" when convenient for the
government. He reminded us of the "rights" given to the loyal and patriotic
japanese-american citizens in WWII, and the pattern holds true today. It doesn't
look like you have freedom of religion!Wonder how many innocent,
untouched children are now going to be beaten and raped by the foster families
they have been put with?Good thing the government took away their
phones so they can't dial for help...
In this day and age it truly baffles me that anyone believes that a polygamist
lifestyle is ok. Is this not one of the things we outlawed many years ago? If
you do not abide by the laws of our nation you have to pay the price. I do
believe that the men in this sick lifestyle are completely to blame. What man
would not like to have sex with young, ignorant, girls who are always told to
"keep sweet"?I believe that all of the men in this compound should be
arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The women and
children may then have some hope of a normal life in society. It will of course
take years of counseling, and education to bring these people into the 21st
century. My thoughts and prayers are with all of the children who have been so
violated by the people they trusted.
This has absolutely nothing to do with religious freedom, family values, care of
children, etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum.1. Polygamy is against the
law ! ! ! 2. Sex with a minor is called RAPE ! ! ! End of
=====Use your IQ not your emotion please. Please think with your head not with
your heart. If anyone knows what the constitution says, knows that this search
was illegal, as was the subsequent removal of these children=====Nope. WRONG! Once it is proven, or even highly suspected, that underage
children are being forced to have sex with adults ALL bets are off. The
Constitution protects them too doesn't it? This atrocity happens every day at
this compound, and these people deserve what they get and have created this
situation. The State of Texas is doing the right and responsible thing in
moving to protect these children from the monsters that lurk behind the secret
What a biased article. Full of weeping and wailing. Nary a mention of
polygamy, which even in the mid 19th century was widely recognized as an
outdated relic of babarism.Anyway, as for the comments talking about
"innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (IUPGBARD)" in rebuking
the public and media, the only people required to observe that standard are the
justice system, specifically the jury. THE PUBLIC AND MEDIA ARE NOT REQUIRED TO
DO SO.IUPGBARD basically means you have to ignore common sense. But
the reality is that extremely unlikely claims are ... extremely unlikely. The
desperately stammered explanation by the wide-eyed creepy guy holding a dripping
knife while standing over a corpse in an alley MAY be true. But almost
certainly not.And unless we're in a jury, we don't have to pretend
he's innocent. It's perfectly all right to draw the obvious conclusion.
Three Words:Certified Birth Certificate.Visit the county
office, pay $20 and have them notarize a new copy of the birth certificate. Sure its a hassle, but the police won't likely reject that document as a
fake when it has todays date - right next to the the county clerk's signature
Strange how the government has yet to produce the "16 year-old girl who called
authorities." And why would they take ALL the children based on an unfounded
allegations? Texas CPS has enough problems and cannot be trusted. It is state
sanctioned kidnapping and state sanctioned religious harassment, nothing more,
nothing less. They came for immigrants, now they've come for the children, who
will be next? Welkome to AmeriKa.
The woman wouldn't speak to the poilce, so they lost their rights immidately.Just think what the outcry would be if the police did nothing in
response to the 16 year old girl's phone call for help. It would be , "Where
were the police? - they got the call, they should have went in" , afterwards.You whiny libs would cry and moan either way.
If these mothers really loved their children, they would be glad they have been
from such a perverse "religious" sect. They are child molesters and enablers.
Spare them no sympathy.No one cares if a woman is stupid enough to
want to be a polygamist slave. What people SHOULD care about is the abuse of
underage girls and the abandonment of underage boys.
Pray for the children. How very sad.
It's nice to see that everyone cares about these children, but I want to play
the Devil's Advocate here. These people are isolated from society and raised to
believe VERY BAD things about the world. Who knows what the husbands told the
wives and mothers to say to the media, under some sort of threat. While I agree
with most comments, I think that we should just slow down and see what happens-
after all a Judge issued the warrant. No one is purposely breaking the law here.
The police aren't Nazi's. Having no idea what goes on and what's said behind
their closed doors, let's be thankful that for now, everyone's okay- even if
depressed. This will all work out- but you can't go just on what someone said.
Again- you have no idea what pressure the men put on the women to say what they
did to the media. They could be telling the truth, they could be doing what they
were told by their husbands. They could be brainwashed. We just don't know- and
at the end of the day, I'll pray for them. I'm sure they'd genuinely appreciate
I feel sorry for children and mothers, I can't even imagine having my children
taken from me. I would be on the brick of insanity. But polygamy is wrong in
many aspects. It is bad for women, it is bad for children, but they don't know
any different. It is normal life for them. But not knowing that it is wrong and
still doing it, doesn't make it right. Without knowing it (or not wanting to
submit to law)they or mostly their men called it on themselves. They should
learn from mistakes of their past, not us. They are Americans and they need to
obey their country's law. My prayers are with this peole. Lord may open their
hearts to the Truth.
As has been documented over and over and over again, this is not about
worshipping a god, or separation for moral cleanliness sake or any of the other
PC drivel that has been posted here. It is about several men demanding absolute
power. Their women are brainwashed to fear the outside world. Their women and
children are brainwashed to think that it is their duty to service the men at
their every sexual whim. Young boys are thrown out of the camps and villages in
order to make a surplus of young women (read that young teenage girls) for the
old men.This is no different than a Jim Jones cult that is
psychologically controlling his masses to do his bidding. Beatings and sexual
abuse are common. You need to become better informed about what
this cult is and what it is doing. Abuse in the name of god is first of all not
of God, nor is it ever anything but abuse.
How can anyone excuse the horrendous and reprehensible behavior of these FLDS
men? And what about the adult women who have been complicit--FOR YEARS--in
enabling the repetetive rape and forced "spiritual marriages" of their underage
daughters to perverted old men? HUH? How innocent do these mothers think their
daughters will be after a trip to the temple mattress? How is it that a
felonious sub-culture is allowed to flourish in this country, today? The FLDS
is an abomination and should be held accountable (like any other church in the
USA) for their illegal behaviors. If these little girls were anywhere else, or
belonged to any other religion--they would have been removed from their abusive
environment LONG AGO!!! Just because these little girls know no other home,
does not mean that they should be returned to the place of their abuse. How
crazy is that? WHERE ARE THE BOYS AND YOUNG MEN OF THIS COMMUNITY? We see NO
EVIDENCE OF THEM! That's because boys and young men are systematically exiled
from the only homes they know when they begin to pose a threat to the perverted
older men of the community. The older pervs don't want competition!
America is the land of the free. I find this controlling, brainwashing pratice
of pologomy sick. Why are they so clueless? In the name of God, they are being
controlled and not experiencing love between 1 man and 1 women. The sickest
part of it all is that at age 14, 15, 16 they are marrying and having sex with
40,50 year old men. This is disgusting. It is bad enough if the girls were
being mated with boys their own age. It is rape- they are under 17- rape, rape,
One of our servers is down, which has slowed access to the site. In order to
improve access to our Web site we will not be posting comments for the next
couple of hours.
No one is talking about the father's of these children not paying or paying
child support towards these children if they are collecting welfare benefits
from the state of Texas. If the mother's are recieving welfare benefits (cash,
food stamps and medical )the state has a right to step in to protect the
taxpayers interests. I see welfare fraud and non-payment of child support. These
mother's may be collecting welfare from more than one state which is illegal.
This may come down to checking DNA of all the father's on the ranch to fine out
who the father are to which children.
My guess is there never was 16 year old making this call. Either it was done by
law enforcement wanting an excuse to raid or it never happened, your pick. I
think this entire episode is a travesty of justice. Is this lifestyle any more
harmful than one of drugs, promiscuity, alcoholism, or any other of a number of
modern day social ills that the youngof this sect is immune from?
Wake up folks. These children are held under running water as infants to stop
them from crying. The child rearing theory of control thru brain washing is
used.No Baptist or Catholic or Muslim or whatever is allowed freedom to
treat children or any citizen abusively. These 'mothers' have been
endoctrinated and brain washed by men who are power mongers. Who knows what the
women and children have been programmed to say. Love and well cared for could
mean anything in the language of this church.Please, folks, may no
mistake. Merrell Jessop and others are scripting these women. These are no
innocent pioneer women....they are pawns of dirty old/young men.
I can understand the concern from LDS members, especially in Utah. But the fact
remains that it is illegal in Texas, as in most if not all other states, to take
a 16 year old and, without her consent or approval, put her with older men for
the purpose of "marriage". That is statuatory rape under the law. The YFZ people
should be the first to want to comply. They are taking on the definition of a
cult. If it looks like what it probably is in many cases, it needs to come to an
end or at least changed to where it is legal. Living apart is not the issue,
holding people captive against their wishes and having sex with underage
Wow, no proof to substantiate the abuse. Yet, they simply go in and kidnap the
children.I am a born again Christian that does not agree with the
beliefs of the LDS or FLDS, but I support their right to raise their children as
they please (without abusing them, of course). The government, as usual, has
grossly overstepped its boundaries and totally ignored these citizens
constitutional rights.I hope the state of Texas gets sued BIG TIME.
These are the same "law-abiding" people who have children with all of their
"wives" and then use them to make welfare claims for the "single" mothers, and
yet operate in such a way that they individuals have no income (it's all within
the church), so that they don't pay taxes. Wake up people. They've had it coming
for some time. Their "prophet" is in jail for abusing children right now. You
can't possibly think Warren Jeffs removal would change their culture?
Here's a question, why doesn't the FDLS church allow the women to have multiple
husbands? They don't because polygamy is about male domination and control.
Also keep in mind the allegations of child abuse are not new, the state has been
hearing these stories for years. This was just the straw that broke the camels
Freedom in America is dead. Some news reporter mentions something about
somebody that is different than the norm and Americans stand by and justify why
they should not have the same "rights" as they do.Freedom is ensured
by the people and the constitution is merely a document that limited the power
of the federal government. Without a society that puts teeth in the
constitution, it's just a piece of paper. As it has become.So most
of America sits back and hears words like: Fringe religion, polygamy, sexual
abuse, etc etc. Add in a supposed phone call from somebody supposedly in the
compound (who for some reason they can't find or have any idea who it is) and
the gov't can come in and take everyone out of the compound? They can take
children away from their parents with no proof whatsoever?Sleep
tight tonight, for tomorrow the same thing can happen to you. Welcome to the
I don't have any solutions but I do think that society has a duty and obligation
to protect children (that is a person < 18) from sexual and physical abuse.I would hope that every child born into these complicated circumstances
would have the choice to leave and reject this way of life and be protected from
the consequences. A few years ago Lawrence vs. Texas established the
rights of adults to privacy in their sexual behavior. This was widely seen as a
step toward legalized polygamy. Many were dismissive but here we are. I say to the polygamists that if they want to protect some part of their way
of life they best do it by protecting their children from abuse, allowing their
children to freely choose to leave, and that they quit their depredations on the
welfare system of the US. As long as they think otherwise then the
Texas type tragedies will continue but it will be their own fault.
Oh, their living conditions in San Angelo aren't good enough for these welfare
cheats? Medical examinations are horrifying for girls who have sex and babies
at 12, 13, and 14 years old?Put these mothers in jail. Along with
the men. Uncover the welfare fraud, sell their compound, and pay us taxpayers
Teaching children such a warped view of the world is child abuse in itself.
Could any one of these children ever be expected to grow up to be a biologist,
doctor, astronomer, or anything regardind a rational view of the world. If
adults want to live in a make believe world of pioneer dresses and sexual
tyranny thats their right. The fact that they are condeming there children to
such a lifestyle is abuse, whether they love them or not.
a DNA TEST would clearly show Who is the Mother of each ChildIf this Woman
Demands a DNA Test of herself and her children then this could aid in the return
of her children to her.However the mothers may not know of this technology
and its wait in the court system.
As I read the story interviews with the mothers/grandmothers, it became almost
impossible to breathe - the depth of their pain feeling like tons of weight. I
have not known a government agency yet that operates in perfection! This action
puts everyone in this country at grave risk. Again. I pray for the children and
their mothers. I pray for our country and a return to sanity. How dare we even
attempt to police a world and expound democracy when we can't even practice it
within our own borders.
If these people had resisted arrest in anyway how many of these children would
have gotten Permanent protection (dead) Isn't it comforting to know that if I
took a dis-liking to YOU I could call the STATE and tell them that I heard from
some guy that his cousin said that YOU were not taking proper care of your wife
and Children...say goodbye...these kids are NOT receiving good care...the STATE
is just not capable. They have been harmed by the STATE (thankfully not burned)
and the longer they are in custody the more harm done.
I too am outraged that this kind of injustice is happening in American...this
sounds too much like Waco and it is very scary. I will pray for these people
even though I am not of their faith. Patti
Lets put aside for a moment our sentiments regarding polygamy, and its
illegality in this country.It is illogical to assume that every
father of these children was a monster. Its even more illogical to assume that
all the mothers were. This act of mass kidnapping was not warranted, justified,
or conscionable.Some have speculated here that the allegation that
set off all of this could have been a hoax. Maybe a lie from a disgruntled
former member of the group. Maybe even a false allegation cooked up by some
facet of the government in order to persecute a religion they found
unfashionable. Wouldnt be the first time weve seen that happen in America.
Times like this make me ashamed of this country.The children need to
be reunited with at least their mothers, somewhere, somehow. The fathers need
to be investigated and cleared if possible, as soon as possible, so the real
abuse of these children (having their families ripped to pieces) can be stopped
and hopefully repaired as soon as possible.If the government feels
such an urge to address polygamy, let them do it in an orderly and as low impact
as possible manner.
I am outraged at the government stealing children away from their parents. It
happens in my county too -- one may be CHARGED with a petty crime and the county
runs in and grabs the children. You see, the more children the county has
control of the more grant $$ it receives.Think about it from the
child's point of view. Can you imagine the horror and the guilt. They must
surely believe that they were taken from their parents because they (the
children) did something wrong . . . .
Given that there was an allegation that a 16 year old girl was being abused, and
that the state allegedly felt a need to prevent any alleged further abuse, and
that polygamy is illegal in this country regardless of whether the involved
individuals are consenting, there are some very significant and egregious
violations of human and civil rights here.Allegedly, a 16 year old girl
was being abused. Is that the justification for ripping crying, screaming
children from their mothers? Did the alleged victim say her mother was abusing
her? Even if she had, would it be grounds for mass kidnapping of 400 children?
One allegation does not justify the invasion of all these homes, and the
abduction of innocent children from the mothers, and their fathers too.
Legality of polygamy aside, is it fair to kidnap a fathers children just because
of one allegation? This could have been handled much better. Common sense says
that not every one of the fathers were monsters, and certainly not all of the
mothers, if any. This is the depraved act of a fascist state run amok.
Disagree with their religion if you like, but that is no basis for mass
Some crimes are so egregious that innocence is an inadequate defense.Child abuse is one such crime. It seems that the claim of child abuse, with
no evidence to support the claim, is enough to take this drastic action. Luckily, that can't possibly happen to you or I because "those people"
area little different; a little weird. I suppose that makes it OK.
I am literally sick to my stomach with disgust at those of you who think these
children were wrongfully taken. These are 14, 15 and 16-year old girls that are
pregnant by older men. This is not an allegation, it's a fact.As for the
abuse, anyone who thinks you aren't better safe than sorry hasn't faced abuse
themselves. Shame on all of you.
These people believe in polygamy, a practice condemned by most Americans, and
unlawful. No doubt there are some bad apples in the YFZ barrel. So what do the
authorities of Texas do about it? They haul in the entire barrel!!! Typical
This my friends.... is the US government at its worst. Whenever you hear a
politician say how we must protect our freedoms etc..., bring up this example of
how kids are separated from their mothers, and the mothers are unable to see
their kids because they cannot prove who their kids are. My how our government
is beginning to resemble certain infamous governments of the past. Can anyone
honestly say that these kids are going to be better off in state foster care
than with their mothers?
Wow, a few quick comments people. The law will have a heck of a time prosecuting
any of the people for Polygamy as they typically LEGALLY marry only the first
wife, other wives are married only in the church's eyes, so there isn't a law
being broken there. Those of you saying they hope that this group sues the state
and/or police for millions, use your heads people, the police and state get
their money from the citizens, not out of their own pockets. And finally, I have
a hard time believing that all of this occurred as a result of a single
anonymous phone call. The sheriffs office said that they had an inside informant
for at least 4 years so I'm guessing that more will come out on what prompted
the raid. With that said, I feel for the children and hope they will heal from
what must be an emotional hell right now.
This post is not about Warren Steed Jeffs; he is serving his sentence at the
Utah State Prison. No, this post is about freedom of religion, Texas and
polygamy. This post is not about the LDS; they excommunicates members who engage
in the practice of polygamy. Sheriff Doran, Texas Rangers and CPS conducted
weeklong raids on a church in Eldorado, Texas. The hold 416 Texan kids and 139
Texans adult women. We need to ask why our US Constitutional Right of freedom of
religion were violated?
This is an outrage! The type of actions one would expect in a police state.
This is a cult, people--not a religion. Cults by their very nature separate
themselves from the rest of society; teach that the outside world is evil or
mislead in some way; teach that their way (and only their way) leads to
salvation; usually have some guy in charge who claims a unique connection to God
and God's truth; and cults usually require some kind of strange or unsavory
practices among their faithful. The problem with this particular cult is the
self-perpetuating quality to it, since breeding seems to be its only activity in
the world. Texas absolutely did the right thing when it raided this ranch.
Both the mothers and the children probably need extensive therapy, and the men
should all be put in jail for a long time.
The author wants to make this intervention about polygamy, but it is about abuse
and neglect of children. And so the article forgot to mention the pregnant
14-year-olds; the 16-year-old with 4 kids and exclusion of most teenage boys.
Throw in the fact that most of the children are not vaccinated or educated (many
of the mothers can barely read and write - one could not write her own last
name).There are many polygamous and polyamorous groups throughout
the country - they, for the most part, are left alone by the authorities. But
when there are allegations of sexual assault of a minor, then the authorities
must step in.
Are you all actually defending this group? Are people so easily swayed? Throw
a couple of heart-wrenching sob stories up there and suddenly it is the state
abusing its police power?Never mind the fact that among the children
taken into custody were numerous teenage mothers. Never mind the multiple calls
from girls inside the community to family violence centers.Its just
all a giant mistake because a mother wants to be with her children, right?
Whatever. In this country we allow freedom of religion, bu the state has an
overarching interest- to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Every
single one of those "happy little girls" wouldn't be so happy when they were
forced into marriage at the age of 14 or 15. Imagine that happening to your
kids, and ask yourself if you'd be so sympathetic to a mother who knowingly
lived in a place where that happens to everyone.
There was proof that many of the girls taken away from the ranch were under aged
and pregnant. Polygamy is against the law even if your faith believes in it.
It's the same as Sharia law being criminal here and for good reason. These
woman are not given an education, made to marry men old enough to be their
grandfathers and having children. It's not exactly a healthy situation when a
small number of men control such a large population and then make the boys leave
so they aren't competition. That's not religion, that's a cult. Yes there are pedophiles in other religions,and in schools, homes, etc..., but
other religions don't believe in it because those responsible are breaking their
own religions rules and the laws of this country.
If we regard a POLYGAMIST to be a criminal notice who we would also be calling a
criminal: Abraham, Jacob, Elkanah (father of Samuel the prophet), King David (a
man after Gods own heart) to name a few. You cannot find any word of
condemnation in the bible for their POLYGAMIST life style. In fact Hebrews
Chapter 11 stated that all these men received a righteous report. They would be
in prison in America. Whats the point of placing our hands on the
Bible in public swearing in ceremonies and in court when most people including
Christians hate the words written in it? Notice this:Exodus
21:10-11 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first
one of her food, clothing, and marital rights.Read also Deuteronomy
21:15-16No condemnation from the bible. In fact our Savior said that
Abraham and Jacob would be in the Kingdom Matthew 8:11. The real
crime of the polygamist is the same crime the Jews committed in Germany: Be
Different. If the mothers and girls were normal wearing short, skin
tight clothes and exposing their chest, attracting one or more boy friends,
(having no husband), on welfare they would be FREE.
Let's mark this day as a symbolic date of Complete Decline of the United State
I am glad the women LOVE their children. But how is it love to give your BABIES
to old rapists and tell them this is God's will? Mental abuse? THAT is mental
abuse. To LIE and tell a child God says you must be sold off and raped as a
child by an old man , that is the worst mental abuse there is. Are they
handling it just right? Probably not. Bet they could use some help, so go help.
An evil world for sure. But God is good. Brain washing, sexual abuse, these are
evil things. "Better a millstone was tied around their necks then to harm the
least of these (children)". Who will say rape is not harm to
I feel for the innocent among this community, but if they are not going to
cooperate with authorities and turn in the rapists among their men, there is
little that can be done to protect those who will be raped.If they
truly loved their little ones, they would speak up and out against the rapists
and not protect them.Mother's, grandmothers, aunts who allow their
daughters to be raped and then do nothing when justice comes knocking are
accomplices to crime.
Remember folks, the government owns you. We have given them the power. They,
at any time can take away anything you think you own, including yourself and
your family. The burden and cost is then on you to get any of it back. A sad
reality, and this is one more example. Let's get these power hungry fools out
of office and close down these over-powered agencies. Vote correctly and make
your voice and monetary support work from your locality on up.
A sad day in America, in which our society has dilapidated to such an extreme
that the government is illegally seizing hundreds of children from their
rightful families.Imagine if the local police suddenly barged into
your home and hauled off your kids to an undisclosed location.No
matter what religion you practice, even if it none at all, keep your thoughts
and prayers with the welfare of the children, not with the government's fascist
I don't believe this would have happened if journalists would have been
permitted to photograph what was taking place. Sunlight is the world's greatest
THEY DID THE RIGHT THING in removing these women and children. It is NOT
the same as removing one man from a woman and children. How could they protect
all those women and children from the male rapist molesters in that compound
when it is so large? No one was sure what the heck they were doing to children
and women in that place. To make the mistake on the side of caution was the
right thing to do. If they had not taken them, and something happened to them
(some other men came for them and spirited them away, beat them, etc. Oh how
you would all be in a rage over that!!!! I do not care for the faulty
system we have in public services, but at least these kids could have a chance
to experience freedom, free will, choices, opportunities, and AVOID RAPE by some
My heart breaks for these Mothers and children. Where is that abused 16 yr. old?
The evident abuse is the with the Texan bureaucrats who, like predators ,
compromised the innocence of bonds between a mother and her child. Who are we
to judge a lifestyle we may/may not agree with or lack understanding of? How
dare they! And where is the outrage??
They deserved it. it was the right thing. There is no where in the bible or the
law that condones sexual acts with underage kids. disgusting perverts.
Wow...a lot of people here are defending these people. The main issue here ISN'T
polygamy, it is child abuse. Someone made an outrageous argument that the
ex-members of this church are naturally going to trash this group because they
had to hate the group to get out of it. That makes as much sense as saying that
naturally an ex-drug dealer who rails against his former profession is only
doing so because he had to hate it in order to get out of it. Nobody is
mentioning the bed discovered in the sanctuary of this place where young girls
were having sex with older men. As to the constitutional argument, there was
probable cause. This place has been under the government microscope for years,
and they held off this long before doing anything. This shows an extreme amount
of restraint on the government's part.
That was the most boring "exclusive" story I've ever read. "Collectively, their
hearts are broken but their spirits undaunted." Uh. Terrible. I love all the
constitutional scholars out there protecting these sexual abusers. Dopes.
Unbeknownst to many people the state(s)have the legal right to protect all
children till they are 16 years old. This is written in state(s) law.
Amazing how my comments never get posted on this site. I am respectful,
well-spoken and coherent. But, I do not support the FLDS crimes. Is there a
proscribed limit to the proportion of negative versus positive comments allowed
in regards to FLDS?I would like to say, again, that the FLDS members
are breaking the law in many ways and also refusing to cooperate with
authorities even in identifying their own children. My tax dollars
are paying to feed and house them, just as they were when they were at the
compound. I am a single mom struggling to pay my bills. Should I feel sorry for
them for having to sleep on cots for a couple of weeks? Did they expect the
Hilton Hotel? Who even knew there were that many children unknown to the state
in there? I am not a proponent of heavy state control, but children
deserve basic protection of their rights to be safe and to be taught truthfully.
Parents are obligated to obey the laws of the land or change it through
political action. These people have taken no responsibility for these things and
want us to feel sorry for them. Grow up.
Anything I have every seen regarding these people and their practices are very
abusive to the children. You girls, not women, are forced to marry old men.
Their mothers stand by and let it happen. I saw a television documentary where
if the young boys get to a point where they are threatening the old guys
positions, they are to pack a bag, taken to the out skirts of town and told to
leave. No money and no place to go they ended up on the streets in prostitution.
So I think the government did a very humane thing going in there and removing
these children, giving them the opportunity to come forward if they are being
abused and have to opportunity to escape that awful situation. It isn't like
they went in there without a complaint being made.
I am a teacher, and I am also a very devoted mother. I homeschooled my child
because the public schools would not meet his advanced needs. I was a single
parent at the time and still am. My husband had left me. I am chaste. I
complained about a day care I temporarily had my son in so I could raise capital
for a work at home business. They had left multiple bruises on him. They knew a
person in CPS and had me threatened. That traumatized me and my child. So, I had
a bad experience with CPS and don't automatically assume they are doing the
right thing. However, CPS is doing the right thing in this case. The
parents are not cooperating at a normal level. It is not normal for parents not
to claim their individual children and state their parentage. What American
parent would not produce a birth certificate and any other proof of parenting to
get their children back? What parent wouldn't try to bargain, offer to live
independently, etc. to get their child back? These people are playing the
victims, but they are making their kids the victims. Get real, folks.
My father fought in WWII to protect our rights. I have always been taught that
we live in the best country in the world. Now as a 44 year old father of two I
can say I am truly concerned with the blatant disregard of our constitution.
Our system is failing us daily in the name of fear. Everyone is convinced that
we must be protected from the evil when everything I see points to evil
government control WAKE UP PEOPLE! Every day another right is taken away. We
as a nation are more worried about Britney Spears Rehab than our freedoms. This
is just another example of "abuse of power". Innocent until proven guilty, only
if you can afford $1500.00 for a lawyer.. other wise you sit in the cell until
your court date Im tired and disgusted with what our wonderful nation has
become. I most go back to work now, I have to pay my taxes on the money I
(like you) work for....
It's all about power and money. There is a small core of men who run the cult -
that is what it is - a cult because behind the curtain, there is a small group
controlling the mass of souls. Who gets to decided who is going to marry who?
How about, when or if they want to marry? The people outside of the Core dont
have choices. They live in the comfort provided to them by others without any
worries. Their dues is a loss of rights that the rest of civilized free
citizens would not put up with loosing. Children should not be exposed to that
environment. The authorities should do everything possible to break
this cult up. They can start with pulling their tax exempt status - federal and
Remember, the reason the authorities went in there was a 16-year old girl
calling in that she was being physically abused by an older "husband" who'd
fathered children on her. This 'church' turns out many of their young men once
they reach 18 to leave the underage girls for the middle-aged men. It is
strictly illegal in Texas for an adult to engage in sex with an under-18 female,
yet this group has done so for years in other states under color of religion.
They picked the wrong place to try their pedophilic nonsense, and I only hope
those taken away can be helped to understand the abusive nature of what was done
A little faith in the justice system please. The state was justified in acting
because we had serious allegations of child abuse, forced mariages and rape in
this compound. Is any of that true? Maybe not, would not be the first time the
US Govenment was overzealous, but then it wouldn't be the first time we found
some cult was brainwashing young women into slavery either. On the facts
presented it sounds to me like this was a clasic cult, not a legitimate
religious group and the state was perfectly justified in their actions. You'll
have your day in court to disprove that. Bring FACTS to court with you not
I see a lot of women angry at men, and people in general angry at authority
harping on how this is so wrong and the officials that came in are horrible.
Give me a break. If I was in their situation I would want to react quickly, and
effectively. If there are kids in a potentially abusive home you would have to
be an idiot to leave them with a parent (even if it is the mom). All of the
complaints about how the fathers need to take responsibility is garbage. The
mothers are likely just as guilty for being enablers or possibly for abuse
themselves. Does anyone honestly think that the law enforcement went in there
thinking "I want to be as evil and illogical as possible". NO, they were acting
the best way possibly to diffuse a difficult situation. To clean a dirty room
it's always easiest to pull everything out and separate it first then put the
necessary things back where they go and throw out the trash. Law enforcement
acted responsibly here and if there was a kid living with abusive parents I
would hope that they wouldn't leave the child with the mom.
There was an informant inside for 4 years. This was not a rash decision. it is a
very complex situation when you have 400 + people involved - many of whom are
brainwashed 2nd and 3rd generations abuse vistims! Don't be so quick to judge
when you don't know all the facts.
You have to wonder if some of the men you join the Church are sex offenders. To
many stories of 14 year old girls getting 'married' in the church, but in
society it would be called rape.
I have no opinion about the way these people live at all BUT I do have a problem
with the fact that there are children pregnant, made to marry fifty year old
men, sex rooms off of the chapels where they have church services and I am sure
much more that we have not heard. That is sick!! They needed to take these
children until they can sort out and make sure they are safe! This is NOT about
religion so people stop making it about that!! This is about emotional and
sexual abuse to innocent children!!!
gunnut I agree completely with your post! You said it so well that it deserves
another look. "Make no mistake. This action was not necessarily to protect the
children. It was an excuse for a deeper motive of the Government of Texas. The
action, like Waco, was an effort to stretch and test the limits of the Texas
constitution and the Constitution of the United States. Also, the first
amendment does say that CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW, regarding the ESTABLISHMENT
OF RELIGION. I don't believe the government has the right to tell any faith they
can't practice polygamy. What it can do is protect prosecute people for hurting
others. NO PROOF HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORTH in this case. The FLDS's culture is
different than the vast majority of the rest of America. That doesn't make their
culture bad. Just different. If they are breaking laws concerning rape,
statutory rape, physical abuse, incest and or marriage before coming of age,
then the State of Texas can do something. Otherwise, leave'em alone. I agree
that the men should've been taken off campus, leaving the women and children
I am a bit surprised by the all the comments about how wonderful and noble this
particular FLDS compound is. Sure this mother is missing her children....and
sure she wants to know that they are o.k. But where were those instincts when
her daughters were being married to older men as a second or third wife...Come
on. The issue here isn't whether or not this mother loves her children....some
of the worst parents in the world will say they "love" their children. The
issue at hand is whether or not these mothers knowingly supported practices that
put their children's mental and social development in danger. Call it whatever
you want....But I call it decades of brainwashing control. Funny how quickly
some are willing to defend adult males exercising sexual control over minor
females. I guess society has not advanced as far as I thought it had.
it happened all the time in American History..to the Native Americans and nobody
was griping then. Then you wonder why we keep from going under!
As long as we're quoting the constitution, how about the 13th amendment:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude...shall exist within the United
States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." These young girls are kept
as chattel slaves by the old men of this sect. The old men forced these young
girls "marry", force them to become pregnant over and over, year after year, and
keep them imprisoned behind a locked gate. Where is John Brown when we need him?
No one should be importing slavey into the great state of Texas.
In W's Texas no less! Well folks there are no longer the civil rights that there
once were. You are now living in W's post 9-11 country. What absolutely shocks
me is that this happened once again in Texas. Before, during, and after W ruled
there as governor. What kind of leadership does he offer? I think that the
present state of the US economy offers an answer, as does the state of affairs
in Afghanistan and Iraq. Incomplete and failure are this man's signature. This
too will become a part of his legacy.God bless the chicks they
called him correctly years ago. Time has proved them correct too.
Poligamy, incest and rape are illegal. How can mothers let this happen to their
daughters and have their sons banished so the older men can have more wives?
These mothers are good and decent people. You can tell by the way they
dress(with decency and modesty) and the things they're now saying about their
lives and children. The state is wrong in doing this and we must rise up and
defend these people against this evil government. This travesty of justice (much
like the evil practice of torture and spying) is just another small step in the
dismantling of our constitution and bill of rights. The government is not
protecting these children, they are in fact now placed in a greater danger. It's
well known and documented that many children taken by CPS end up sexually abused
in that system. These mothers and fathers know what is best for their children,
not the state. This criminal government should release all of the children back
to their parents now and stop violating our rights as US Citizens!
This is the most unbalanced article I've ever read. No details on why the
children were taken, just a sentence at the very end.Pathetic
reporting.Also, no information on how many of the children were
already married and had children of their own.Terrible, terrible
reporting. You should be ashamed of yourself.And I don't know what
church keeps a bed in the temple, specifically for the purpose of sex with
At least they are not as bad and the global warming cult. YFZ is not trying to
bring down the world economy with there lies like the GW cult is doing
I have only one concern. And that is that the children here have been
traumatized deeply. This entire situation should be handled carefully.
This is another case of our government out of control and slow removal of
personal freedoms and parental rights.I mean the warrant that was issued is
dropped because the man accused hasn't been in Texas since 1979 and no arrest
have been made.I could almost see them removing girls 11 or 12 -16 I mean that
was the issue to begin with. I gather up my children everday and we stand in big
circle and take turns praying this is we start our days before everyone heads
out.I imagine the day will come when this is determined dangerous and
brainwashing then my kids will be the ones being removed. Today its some sect in
Texas tommorow it'll be you kids,your beliefs,and your personal property the
government decides to strip away.As a christian I morally disagree with polygamy
but as a liberterian I always side with personal freedoms for that is the only
way to ensure all our freddoms.I mean I disagree with
adultery,fornication,homosexuality,and many other thing but I don't think
our government should be making laws about these things and riping people lives
apart.Freedom is the key that keeps the door of liberty open.
Only in Utah and in an LDS owned paper would any one justify Polygamy. The apple
does not fall far from the tree. I guess its all right for a mother to let her
daughter be raped in the name of furthering the so called Kingdom of God.
Yeah these kids were well cared for until they hit age 13, then they were
abused. Maybe if the members had of been more cooperative with authorities it
wouldn't have came to this, but the fact that they wouldn't tell them what
children belonged to what mother sounds like they were trying to be evasive.
Misguided religious zealots should not be tolerated. Religion should not
conflict with the larger societies laws to the degree that this cult did.
Nobody is saying the "c"-word, but that's really what this is. It's a cult.
It's the reason for the isolation and it's the reason for the Stockholm
Syndrome-like reaction.And if the possibility exist that any of
these children are being arranged in marriage before the age of 16 or 17, then
the government is correct in protecting them.
Churches are safe in America but cults are not. God bless USA
The most troubling aspect of these comments is the defense of the FLDS cult and
its obvious, clear and convincing abuses of human rights and oppression of women
and children. Those commenters complain about "the government".Can you imagine what our government would be like if FLDS believers were
in control of our government?Can you imagine what our lives would be
like if we lived under an FLDS-controlled government?THAT is
frightening to conjure.
The tyranny we fought a revolution over 200 years ago we have now created. An
unsubstantiated phone call from a 16 year old, and American authorities March
into a community and take away the children from their parents. If we are not
outraged and fight for these people, the government will come for our children
next! Freedom of Religion my foot!Thank God the Mormons are
peaceful people, and the Clintons are not in the White house or: we would have
had another Waco.
I would like to know more about the Texas officials who initiated this action.
People seems rather quick to condem the government today, yet you don't have
many facts. How many 12 year old girls have to be found pregnant before you
change your mind? How many pregnant teenagers did they find? Is that just
cause for pulling the at risk 9-12 year olds out too? What about the emotional
toll of breaking up families? Depending on what is happening that we don't know
about, taking every child and the mothers could be the most benevolant solution.
It's the filthy old men that need to be removed- not the children from their
mothers. I can't believe that was the course of action chosen. How
ignorant.I think polygamy is wrong on many levels, but if a consenting
adult chooses that lifestyle then so be it. On the other hand, they should not
be forcing little girls (or FORCING ANYONE for that matter) to wed and bear
children for old men. There's a difference between choosing that life and being
forced into it. It's the use of sexual and marital force and deception that is
a crime here- not the polygamy.
So many people are claiming that since polygamy is still on the books as a
crime, these people are fundamentally criminals who deserve the treatment
they're getting. In most states, adultery and cohabitation are still on the
books as crimes (or at least they were until recently), and yet, no one expects
the police to round up the 90% of Manhattan and Orange County CA who are living
"in sin".What about the man who has a wife and kids and a pregnant
mistress. Should they round up all his kids and throw him into jail? If there is proven child abuse, punish the abusers. Otherwise the law should
be upheld (or ignored) equally.Also, when I was a foster mom, the
state wouldn't remove any children from a home except the one who had actually
sufferes abuse. Even then, the goal was to get them back home as soon as
possible. Let's see some evidence of abuse other than a few sensational minutes
on Nightline or Montel before overreact. You'd think our government
would've learned the lessons of WACO.
Wether the government was right or not. the article is clearly bias. No
mention of older teenage girls taken away. No comment from any male, just 30+
and older women. If the article had comments from a teen girl taken away that
was having sex since 13 or 15 you might feel different. Point being it showed a
side of the ranch, which is fine, but don't allow that to cloud the fact of
sexual activities in the ranch of minors with men. None of this is good. Its a
sad situation that a group of men are responsible for.
Earlier "Pat" commented that they should have taken the men out of the compound
and left the women and children. I couldn't agree more. Who in our country
allows men to be married to 7 or 8 women, whether true marriages or "spiritual"
marriages. These men wanted unlimited sex with young girls and all the babies
they could make to keep them under control. But, Texas got it backwards.
Remove the predators, not the prey.
It was only a matter of time before someone wrote a sympathetic article in
defense of the pedophiles and their servile, submissive wives. Oddly, there is
no mention of the fumarase deficiency caused by inbreeding, the techniques
similar to waterboarding that they use on their children to force them into
obedience, or how they expel many of the male children from the sect to
eliminate the competition for the young girls. Inclusion of the above would
bring a whole new meaning to the statement, "We love our children".
Texans...when will you rise and take back the state that used to be yours?These folks might appear different, but so do Baptists, Jews,
Catholics...and Gun-owners, Hunters, Constitutionalists, etc. Show me their
crime!How long will God-given rights be stolen? How long will yall
allow the prejudice of bureaucrats to trump the rights secured to you by
generations of vigilance and sacrifice? With apologies to
Neimoller:In Texas, they first came for Davidians,and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Davidian.Then they came for FLDS,and I
didn't speak up because I wasn't an FLDS.Then they came for gun-owners,and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a gun-owner.Then they came for
Conservatives,and I didn't speak up because I was a Moderate.Then
they came for me -and by that time no one was left to protest.Can't happen in Texas? It just did (Again!)! And y'all do nothing!?!Sam Houston said, Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression,
come from what source it may. Today, hes apparently wrong! Where are your
cajones?This ex-pat Texan living temporarily in Virginia is ashamed
that this tyranny is unopposed in Texas.
While it may suit to justify the Law Enforcement communities actions in this
case that 400 children, some so young as to be NURSING, were taken from their
homes and separated from their mothers, who now allegedly are not allowed time
with their children even when documentation is presented that proves the
relationship, It is a false justification that pregnant underage girls were
found , or even underage mothers. I am sure that these eager Lawmen could have
found pregnant underage girls in Houston or Dallas, or by subpoenaing medical
records at any abortion clinic, as was recently attempted to be done in Kansas.
That deal caused a huge public backlash because the guilty parties were not a
religious group. If these folks would have been abouting the children to avoid
any evidence that anything was happening, it would have been ok and they still
be happily molesting each other with no consquences... At least the LDS folks
had the good judgement not to resist the confiscation of their children, so that
no state sponsored cremations resulted.
Simply put, religions must abide by all the laws of the community they live in.
They were not abiding the laws, hence the children were taken.
"...So did I miss the story where they took the boys away from the catholic
priests? Or the one where they took the Muslim kids away because they had more
than one wife?..."Nope, you didn't miss it; but you might have
missed the fact that it isn't a part of their 'program'. Child rape is not
organized nor is it condoned.
I find it interesting that the Deseret News chose to paint the FLDS church in
such a glowing light after years of writing negative articles about it.
Opportunism at its finest. The people of Utah and the LDS church can't stand
FLDS either. Thus, they moved to another state where they thought they could be
less conspicuous. The facts of the case are that a child made an outcry of
sexual abuse against a member of the compound and that the alleged sexual abuse
is widespread throughout the compound. What the news doesn't tell you is the
mothers were all given the opportunity to leave with their children when the
kids were removed and some of them chose to remain with the men instead.
Funny...none of the women interviewed express any concern about the sexual abuse
i am praying for all involved. too much pain to think about, too
much recovery to go through,but these people must begin somewhere.Jesus, heal the broken hearted and set free the captives, as your Father has
sent you to do. Amen
I personally think this is another case of the government out of control.I mean
it makes no sense to remove anyone except girls ages 13-16 that was the issue.I
mean it starting to come out now the guy accused has not even been in texas
since 1979 and so they dropped the warrant and no arrest is Being made.I gather
my kids up and we stand in a big circle and everybody takes their turn praying
we do this everyday.I imagine someday the goverment will consider this
brainwashing and conditioning.I hope people realize what they are advocating
more intrusive government and more government control.Today its some kids from a
sect in Texas tomorrow it will be your home your kids and you'll wish you stood
on the side of freedom because by that point it'll be gone.
Why would you publish such a one-sided interview? What purpose does this serve?
Would you publish an article about the government's claims when there was no
willingness to address questions or "undesirable" topics? Clearly these folks
were polygamist child abusers, they need no sympathy.
it is stupid government telling their people how to live. They want to live the
way they do, it's their business. Law enforcement officers should respond to 16
year old case only in her family, not rest of families!Govt presumed
all families are stereotypically guilty of one 16 year-old's rape, therefore all
raids are justified in their own eyes. Not my eyes.
The problem is the sexual abuse of children. Everything else that is being
brought up is a smoke screen. The mothers agreed to talk if they were not asked
questions about sexual abuse, therefore they have nothing of substance to add to
the discussion. There is no easy way to protect children when it is
the parents who prepare the children to be raped. To allow it to continue would
make us guilty of the crime as well, in the eyes of God.
Sex without desire is painful for a woman; sex without desire is rape. A judge is convinced that there *is probable cause* to believe that the women
have been victims of rape while the young girls are at high risk of rape. Current thinking is that rape isn't a wholesome thing. Current thinking
is that child rape is particularly heinous. Current thinking is that the
government has a duty to protect girls who are at high risk in their homes.If you don't like the way Texas handled this, lobby to make child rape
legal. Let parents mentally torture their little girls, making them
believe that they'll burn in hell if they don't have sex with a man they don't
desire the moment they get their first periods.Make child rape
legal. Let 50 yo men take frightened, pubescent girls and rape them. Yes, child
rape is mostly ugly, but out in the country with girls who are first properly
conditioned to believe that this is the way to earn Heaven in the afterlife,
child rape could be a beautiful thing.Gag. Stockholm
The media can spin a story any way it feels will get the best reaction and this
has absolutely higlighted the natural feelings of mothers for their children
without taking in to account that these same mothers are party to some very
shocking abuse. As a mother I understand the distress such a forceful separation
would cause. Let us keep in mind however that the women interviewed were
unwilling to talk about underage marriages or any of the alleged abuses related
to the siege in the first place. My heart is with the poor 16 year girl who
already has FOUR children! It is a very traumatic time for all involved but
better to save the children from such a future, not forgetting that their
mothers were allowing the alleged abuse to continue. Those mothers would do
better to find some help for themselves in order to better protect their
At puberty (could be as early as 9 if not earlier), these mothers willingly hand
over their daughters to be "married" and sexually abused. duh.
This is one of the few things that the government has done that's right! These
people aren't abusive? Not in their own eyes, of course. Their god wants them
to marry off 13 year old girls to 50 year old men. They don't deny it. This
isn't a case of people accusing them of doing such things. They freely
acknowledge it and don't see it as abuse. They also throw out young men so that
there will be enough women to go around. What kind of loving parents throw
their children out?
I dont know what is wrong with all of you?? There were SEVERAL PREGNANT
teenagaers which prove there is child abuse going on inside this cult. I am
appalled that anyone can sit here and say we should not have gone in and taken
all the children. We need to protect them first and foremost above anyones
religion. How dare anyone say getting a teenager pregnant is ok!! I am ashamed
that no one on here has any morals!
If the children weren't being abused before, they certainly ARE being abused
boys who are over 18 are thrown out because they are a threat to older men. who
are these older men who don't want to be threatened? and what is the threat? the
battle for the women, especially the younger women and girls? does anybody see a
OK, let's assume polygamy was being practiced there.Why is this criminal,
but having children out of wedlock is OK? How many children in America have
been abandoned by their fathers or traumatized by divorce, yet the government
can't seem to get a handle on these social problems.Leave it to
politicians to make a mountain out of a mole hill so they can portray themselves
as heros. From what I've seen, most of them can't manage their own lives much
less tell others what's best for them.
When people behave like animals and they break the laws of this country in such
a heinous way then they should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the
law. I noticed only 2 people were actually arrested, there were warrants for the
search and after entering it was decided there was an imminent threat to the
children at which time they were removed in a very legal way. The children were
potential witnesses in a case who were in danger of being manipulated and hurt.
If there was no crime the children will be returned. Now if a crime has been
committed I hope everyone wishes that they be punished to the fullest extent of
the law and that the sickos who commit crimes against children rot in the pits
In response to Hal, 12:32 pm April 13 (first page, last comment) - The Amish and Mennonite seclude themselves, but do not cut off the outside
world. Outsiders may enter, provided they follow some simple rules (no
picture-taking), and most Amish and Mennonite villages trade with the outside
world. They are not strictly self-sufficient. Obviously it's not illegal to
cut out the world entirely, but cutting out the world is not usually done to
protect children from the world. IT is done to hide questionable acts from the
authorities. Never, ever, in the history of any sect, has any sect found it
necessary to cut off the world entirely and not had something illegal, immoral,
and often sexual going on behind closed doors, not even when the first
Christians were praying in the catacombs.
nice pictures of hands. they are so informative. so different from any other
It is incredibly ironic that the Daily Mail in England is leading a charge of
demonizing the situation of the FLDS in this ranch incident, whilst at the same
time turning a blind eye to Britain allowing "creeping sharia" in government
mandated programmes to pay welfare to up to four Muslim wives and allow Muslim
wives to join another wife if both come from abroad.The Government
is extremely wrong to separate these children from their mothers and a gross
abuse of Government power. They have the right to look into allegations of
sexual abuse, but not to destroy the lives and relationships of women, children
and whichever men are innocent.I'll bet the majority of those on
this forum who are attacking the FDLDS are themselves totally ambivalent over
Muslim polygamy and if from the left, would never dare tell a Muslim that their
religious family life is an "abuse" etc and support abortion, state fosteriung
and other anti-family programmes. Hipocrites.Amish, Mennonites etc
who wish to leave in peace away from the world should be allowed to do so as
long as direct abuse is not involved.
So did I miss the story where they took the boys away from the catholic priests?
Or the one where they took the Muslim kids away because they had more than one
The people at YFZ Ranch keep talking about how they cant believe this can happen
in America? WHAT ABOUT THE WAY THEY CUT THEIR CHILDREN OFF FROM THE
OUTSIDE WORLD AND FORCE THEM INTO THIS LIFESTYLE?It doesn't seem
like the freedom they are asking for is being given to their own children.
Marrying off underaged girls into a polygamist relationship(which is illegal in
every state they operate) and teaching young boys that this is the only way they
will go to heaven is wrong. Its fraudulent. And while this kids and the women
and children will suffer, they have to due to their brain washing, it will help
some others get out and stop the repeated cycle.
This is a crime committed by government. We need to clean our government out of
all these do gooders who want to make gay marraige the norm. I am a Catholic but
I fully support the FLDS and I hope they sue the bejesus out of Texas and win.
Before you get outraged by the removal of children & women, wait until you see
the evidence presented at the trial. There is a big difference between
manipulating, frightening or forcing young children into a life of subservience
and sexual abuse and freedom of religion. The Texas authorities are doing the
right thing - giving many who are too scared to speak up, an opportunity of
getting out of that judgmental environment where you are not allowed an opinion
of your own, you are forced to agree with old, perverted men. Let them get out
of that and start putting things into perspective. When the investigation is
over, those that are innocent may return. Those that have committed crimes will
be dealt with fairly, by a jury of their peers. Justice is finally being done.
The older perverts have freedom of religion. Imagine a 13 y/o girl in this
sect. No options, no say over her future. If she disagrees, forced & blamed.
Allow HER freedom of choice. She has no outside education or support to get
away from it. This raid & investigation is overdue. God bless Texas
Fear not! These kids will be ingesting MTV, HBO and the internet in no time. If
they just dive into our multi-cultural philosophies and accept that having two
moms or two dads is A-OK but having one dad and two moms is wrong, then we will
cure what ails them. What they really need is a steady diet of moral relativism,
poor manners and a complete lack of motivation. Just think of the progress they
will make once we teach them to hate Christianity and to worship musicians and
bumbling idiot actors. Maybe we should be happy they didn't cook the kids like
they did in Waco? Seems we didn't learn any lessons last time. God bless these
kids and God help their families. And if any of the men are guilty of child
abuse, prosecute them. Certainly good families have been destroyed in this
unconstitutional pursuit of "Justice" Shame on Texas. Shame on that judge!
The events in Texas match my personal experience with child protective services,
the county sheriff, and the school attendance review board in the Conejo Valley
Unified School District in Ventura County California. I am a homeschooling
parent with a PhD in EE from Stanford University and a BS in Physics from MIT.
The CVUSD designated my 8-year-old son a "habitual truant" and presented
absolutely terrifying police force to him and his mother. When my child
responded to this terror by crying and vomiting, the school district dropped my
child from school rolls and pretended he did not exist. Since then, my "habitual
truant" received an $80K merit scholarship at Johns Hopkins University when he
was 17 and he is just now graduating with his MS in computer science. I predict
that the dishonesty and abuse of child protective services towards some of the
best parents will have catastrophic social consequences. Those children will
remember being taken from their families for the rest of their lives.
What's wrong with this picture is that pedophiliabecomes systems, couched
in terms that this is theLord's wish. Which no one can ever argue you
against. So very young girls are taught to enduresexual contact with
relatives, even fathers, andpeople even have to wonder why a government
wouldhave the right to step. Comparing what the Texasauthorities
did to Nazis shows an apparent ignoranceabout Nazi atrocities. The Nazis
took your childrenaway and gassed them. Hardly whats happening in
Texas.At the end of the story, the founding men of thischurch
thought this would be a good way to sleep with young girls and God bless us for
so marrying 50 year old uncle bob,when you're 14 is totally cool with you people
An observer from Helsinki, Finland writes: History will compare the taking of
these children from their families to the taking of native American children
from their families or the taking of aborigine Australian children from their
families ... a horrible example of cultural arrogance ... a human rights
Is your church government approved? It appears the lessons of Waco are now
forgotten. I don't like the tone of the media which is from day one has
demonized these people with code words like compound and cult. Remember that
this country was founded by religious extremists. Its part of our fabric. The unspoken criticism I hear in these media reports is that the
government is upset that FLDS is teaching their kids that their first loyalty is
not to the state. Beyond that they are criticized for being self sufficient,
fertile, and dowdy dressers. The media goes nuts over the polygamy and
patriarchal authority aspects while it blindly supports gay marriage, homosexual
teachers, and criticizes the Boy Scouts for keeping poofters out of their ranks.
The FLDS has a right to be secretive about their affairs. People have been
hounding or killing them for 175 years for their non mainstream beliefs. I don't think the 16 year old girl will ever be found. She never existed
in the first place. I could see through the smokescreen from day one.
The papers here sure have got the story scewed. This story's half way around the
world. Sympathy seems to be building for these people. I wonder if this might
back fire with your local Government and national government. Awful abuse of
power, and the Judiciary Branch of government seems to have no moral or
constitutional base in Texas. American citizens really should be a bit more
alarmed about this. They seem to be having a bit of yawn session instead of a
I've seen cases where immigrant families practice polygamy. They avoid
prosecution by calling the extra wives "aunts". Would authorities also go after
Before you judge whether or not the authorities in Texas were right or wrong in
their actions against the FLDS compound you should read "Escape" by Carolyn
Jessop, one of Merrill Jessop's many wifes, who was born and raised to believe
in plural marriage. Carolyn Jessop tells a story that will shock you! The FLDS
is nothing more than an American Taliban the way the abuse women and children
and claim that the edicts come from God directly to their prophet. I dare you.
Read that book!!!
I notice that the terms Nazi and Hitler are thrown about already. And now: "If anyone knows what the constitution says, knows that this search was
illegal, as was the subsequent removal of these children."Sorry but
both state and county courts issued warrants. It is to be determined if they
were correct. Quite a few of us know our Constitution well. Emotions run amok do
not help. But following Warren Jeff's actions in Arizona we do know
several women trying to leave his compound has disappeared. I have had the
privilege of assisting a run away bride from Colorado City. Their lives are hard
and not at all akin to the Amish or Mennonites. Let's keep the emotions in
check and let this play out in the courts. All involved will get their say.
I attended Jordan High School in Sandy in the late 60's and early 70's. There
was a compound of Jeffs who lived up 9400 S. not far from the mouth of the
canyon. We had a lot of the Jeffs and Allred kids who attended school with us.
Most of them did well in school and graduated with the rest of us in their
class. My how these groups have changed, I understand they don't educate the
girls past the 8th grade now...how sad. I guess that's one way to have
How is polygamy any different than someone getting married 3 times and having
children in each relationship? Or even having children outside of marriage with
several partners? Isn't the end product the same?Maybe someone
should target some politician with children and call in some claim similar to
this situation? Or perhaps target one of the posters above? Indeed,
this is very much like 1938 Germany. The masses site idle while Marxism
disguised as good intentions march forward unopposed.
Well, I'm not big on the whole combine thing, but it looks like there is very
little proof so far as to a mass child abuse thing going on there. Maybe it was
just one isolated incident, so the question is..will the state now take every
child that lives on the same random street as one who was abused? This looks
like a case of discrimination against religion, which is supposed to be free
Why weren't all the Catholic schools closed down when the priest scandel broke?
Take the children to San Fransicko and bring them up among the wierdos there???
It's no wonder that this group wants to be secluded. All you have to do is look
at TV for a day and you'll see more depravity than you'll see in 10 years on
that FLDS compound. If you want to charge someone. Charge the men, --after you
have proof. Texas is the 'Wild West. Not as wild tho' as SF. This is becoming a
Godless country. Surely there has to be a reckoning some day. The whole thing is
sick. Pity all those little children.
No one has proven to why having multiple wives is a crime. Sure, I understand we
live in a Constitutional Republic and we are under duress to live by the laws. I
dont mean to shatter your comfort but just because something is a law doesnt
mean its right or that a valid study was done to support the need for such a
law. The only thing I can tell is Utah was forced to drop polygamy in order to
join the union. Thats simply not proof in as of its self. Please educate me and
Im not looking for your opinion. I want proof.
I cannot believe when I read people say Texas is "violating these freaks'
constitutional rights." Child RAPE is not a right, it's a horrendous crime. Dont
mess with Texas, and dont mess with kids. Americans should be and are
permitted to worship whatever Diety they choose. They should even be permitted
to have their stupid "plural families". Just dont rape young girls.
Not knowing the extent to which certain unusual practices were "forced" it is
hard to comment on how I want this case to resolve. What I do know is that the
Government has taken upon itself to ignore the rights of individuals and groups.
Widespread abuse of the scale that warrants the forced removal of
hundreds of children couldn't be hidden or destroyed. At the very most, if
sufficent reason existed to believe the teenage girl's calls were genuine a
detailed search of the ranch would have been in order.Not this.. Not
When the law breaks the law. Then there is no law!
This makes me sick. How can they separate families like this? What country do
we live in? Even through the many things our government has done, this it the
first time I have questioned whether we are free any more. It is a
sad day for these families and an even sadder day for America.
I feel so sorry for these children, forced into having sex with dirty old men
with multiple wives sounds like a horror story. I hope the govt finally puts a
stop to this sex abuse.
I'd imagine if the alleged accuser is still alive, and in state custody, that
there are very good reasons for not parading her before the media.
I too am concerned about the abuse that young adolescent girls and boys face in
this sect. But is it right to wrench the young toddler childern away from their
mothers? What harm are we doing to these kids by separating them from their
mums. If this had happened to me when I was a child, I don't think I could ever
have recovered. I think the government has gone too far.Is there
someone we can contact to help these poor children? My heart just aches for
It is Illegal to practice polygamy in the USA.It is Illegal for a man to
impregnate a minor(really a child themselves) in the USA. Thats called Statutory
Rape. In my book it just plain Rape. Someone needs to pay! Texas has done
whats best for these young Children in getting them out of that environment. The
proof of these mens Sin is in the bellys of these young girls. Now
mysteriously some of these mothers appear with tears trying to rally support
from the people of the USA for their sins. Where were these mothers when the
raid was going on? Now days later they come home to check on their children?
Give me a break. Sure a mothers love runs deep, but a mother that would want
one of her 13 yr old daughters to be impregnated by a 60 yr old man has gotta be
sick in the head. Im sorry but that is cold hearted. Laws have been
broken, both judicial and moral....God Bless Texas for caring about America and
Another Waco-style disaster created by liberal- and power hungry law-enforcement
-officials in the making. The only abuse and neglect I can see here is on the
part of the government. What happened to facing your accuser? The Governor
needs to step in and stop the madness now.
What law has THIS mother broken? These poor children are being raped by the
very establishment that is aiming to protect them. Who is to say their religion
is wrong? If there is abuse, then get THE abuser. This sounds so fishy
anyways. Wher eis the girl that made the accusation. Did they prove she was
even there? They should have gotten HER only and then determined what was going
on. THIS MAKES ME SICK! SAVE THE CHILDREN..FROM US!
Savages - they're nothing but savages. If they want to be heathens and practice
polygamy, well fine, but not with children present.
This reminds me of waco I am so suprised that they did not ask janet reno back
in for techniques on how to burn the place down. Why go after our own people
when our unguarded borders are teaming with terrorists tying to sneak in.theyshouldnotdoths
I was shocked that the mother's and other Mormons were shocked. The authorities
have been acting this way for now up to 35 years. Likely even before most of
these mothers were born. I see they are in the dark about the news or even old
news about this nation. They think this is 1960 or something. Have not not heard
about Ruby Ridge where a mother was shot out from under her baby (that she held)
by an FBI sniper? And their pleas to America - they might as well spit on a
forest fire, as much good it will do them.
What people are noticing, I hope, is that CPS practices are entirely able to
circumvent rights defined in the name of the constitution.
Um, there WAS no 16 year old pregnant girl calling for help from a cell phone.
That was a very simple harrassment technique .. the equivalent of anonymously
reporting that a neighbor (or school board member) you don't like has child porn
on their computer or are beating their wife. By law, the authorities HAVE to
respond even though the accusation is anonymous. Let the lawsuits begin.
Although 'progressive' judges have re-interpreted it for the 'greater good, the
Constitution explicitly forbids anonymous accusations and this whole episode is
a reminder of why.
Things like this haven't been done since the Nazis: just to come in and round up
a whole town based on a group's religion, and trumped-up charges. LDS
denominations are historically the most-persecuted religion in this country.My hope is that they've screwed it up big-time enough to really get some
recompense for these people! Just like in the 50s, the gov is gonna turn the
public to the REAL victims' side.This will either probably end with
a big ca$h check to the REAL victims--that community--or end in a hail of
bullets or consuming fire. These ppl have nothing left to live for anymore. It's
silly to think these ppl will continue to put up with this BS indefinitely if no
one stands up for them. I bet that's just what the government wants. Itching for
another fight, hungry after 13 years from Waco? To see if they can snuff out
another entire religion in a fit of violence (to "protect the children"! ah!
yes--of course!), even if it be a smallish misfit religion. Just for the thrill.
Maybe your religion or community is next. Where are there not
abusers? WHY NOT CLOSE ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS W/UNDERAGE
((When the authorities as the "mothers" to identify their chilren; they went
silent, instead. Maybe, a dumb lawyer told them that trick?))No one
is required to testify or provide evidence against themselves... even in the
streets of a "compound."
The only difference between this and Waco is that the government burned Waco and
the people. Seperatting children from their mothers is wrong. I agree with the
concept to arresting the men and leaving the women and children on the compound.
I find it egregious that people cannot punish a child, but the state can tear a
family apart. Does the word traumatize have a meaning in this situation?
What is WRONG with you people. These so called MEN are abusing young girls for
there own gratification!
This seem so much like the fate of the "Branch Dividians"...This just another
example of governemental abuse of the rights of Christians...had this same
Nazi-type taactic been applied to anyother sect, the news media would have never
allowed us to hear the end of it!May God have Mercy on us all..and
may he protect these FLDS familes as they attempt to find recourse the legal
system...and should the government fail toprove its case, I pray a jury will
award them billions in punative damagees. ANd the overzealous bueaucrats be
fired on the spot!
since the 1953 raid on short creek Arizona there hasn't been such an abuse of
constitutional rights. We pride ourselves here in AMERICA on certain inaliable
human rights, such as freedom of religion.1. Amendment #1 Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof.2 As Americans, we think it's a tragedy what's currently
happening in Tibet, but we willingly accept this horrible violation of human
rights in our own country, shame on us!!!!!3. Amendment #4 speaks of the
right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects
against unreasonable searches and seizures etc. The state of Texas
will lose this fight. America should be embarrassed and ashamed for allowing
such an absolute violation of civil rights. Where is the A.C.L.U in
this matter? The FBI wasn't called in to raid the Catholic church when there
were a few rotten apples in their group, why should this be any different?
Target those that are at fault and leave the rest alone! It is disgusting that
dogs are given more rights than these people.
What you do not hear is that these "poligamists" are only "legally" married to
one woman. How is that any different that someone who has kids with more than
one person? I do not agree with poligamy, but I have more respect for someone
who fathers kids with different mothers and stays there to support them than I
do for the million of others who don't. The difference is that it is easy to
point fingers at "them" as being "abusive" because they are a religious sect,
but then ignore the deadbeats having kids out of wedlock and not sticking
around, which are far worse.
Notice whenever the police raid a home or a Church with the help of the media
they change the names of these homes or Churches to a "compound". This
supposedly legitimizes their Nazi actions.I am ashamed of my government.
No better than a banana republic.
**And the best their defenders can do is say: "Other people abuse too!"**The point being is that the "other" people are never called to account
for the abuse.
The polygamist embarrassment has gone on long enough in our country and now is
the time to put an end to the brain washing of women and children by evil men
for their own ends. Before you start saying mindless and ridiculous things about
a police state and calling people Nazi's, read some of the books by the women
who have escaped the FLDS church.FLDS are the Nazi's, not the police
who are doing their job, not the people who care about the children. I've seen
the pictures of the beaten children on the news, I've seen the cases tried in
the courts, and the convictions of child rapists who call themselves Men of
God.The time has come for the FLDS church's sinful and barbaric ways
to come to an end.
Polygamy is illegal. We can debate the merits of it, but it's illegal. What more
is there to debate? If you don't like it, write your congressman (as if he
hey remember how this all started, with a phone call from a girl who was 14
married to a 60 something man. truth be told it was probably a fake phone call,
the feds have been tearing it to bits for years trying to figure out how to get
in there, now they have some phone call but havent been able to find the girl or
the old man, sound a little funny to you it does to me
So, some stranger calls the abuse hotline knowing the authorities are hot to get
their hands on these people...? What a joke. Texans are nothing more than a
bunch of hair trigger rednecks waiting to get these "polygamists". I've yet to
see a single young abused girl. I'm sure if we wait long enough, they'll
"plant" something on these people.
You know, it's pretty sad that the women and children are being punished. First
of all, even if a 13 year old girl got pregnant and gave birth to a child, the
state would have absolutely right to take that child. What is the basis for
these children being siezed and put into foster homes, with strangers, and then
denying the mothers the right to see their children? Was it because of some
alleged phone call from a 16 year old girl? She may have a point about what was
being done to her, but how does that make it alright to take over 400 children
from their mothers....because of the acts of one person? You know, if you want
to get something done fast, don't bring in the courts or the feds, they'll take
forever. The kids will be adults by the time they are returned to their
mothers. Whoever made the decision to raid the place and separate those kids
from their mothers should be prosecuted for overstepping their authority. This
situation reminds me of the Waco incident, although it's not violent. It's was
just as invasive, however, with all being punished because of one man.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H.L. Mencken
I live in New York, am a Columbia University grad student, and have lived my
whole life in liberal, secular America, but it hurts me to see children taken
from their mothers to be put in state custody and create future monsters like
all the failed liberal programs created here in New York. I hate the trumped up
sexual allegations, too, that always fits into the whole demonization, Stalin,
etc always used trumped up sexual charges. I really think it will be impossible
in the future to live life as we see fit and not as some unelected commissars
We don't have all the facts. But if these are all the facts, Texas should be
funding the FLDS for the next 20 years after losing a MAJOR lawsuit, so they
NEVER violate family rights and privacy again. This is the most frightening
thing, knowing some lib judge activist can order that my kids be taken from me
because of some anonymous phonecall. That's spooky.
Leave these people alone. If there are crimes, run them through the
system. This is nothing but religous persecution.All you self
righteous types can just go fly a kite. Of course the good people of your state
might decide that is wrong and take your children away. That would be
Sounds like we Floridians have lost Janet Reno to a higher calling!!!!!
Children who are pregnant and mothers who have had children when they were
children themselves is plenty of proof for me. Molestation and grooming females
for sexual abuse is very hard to get any proof of - think about it.These woman are just another example of people being abused and perputrating
that same abuse onto their off spring - Their perception is Skewed, read about
it so you will know what you are talking about folks.... You are dealing with
SEXUAL abuse victims when dealing with most of these parents - they are not the
ones to be directing these innocent children's future - try to remember that!Enough is Enough people. Thank God TEXAS drew the line....Don't Mess with Texas!
I am sure if nothing is found to substantiate the raid, something will be
planted to ensure this doesn't come back on the government as a blunder.
Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Give me a break Texas. Lets follow the basic rights given to us by our
constitution. Don't try and force you ways upon people with strange beliefs.
If they're sexually abusing kids, arrest the pedophiles. Don't try and judge
how parents are raising their kids. Only step in if their is a true victim like
any other complaint that may be received. Unreal, in America?
Brothers & Sisters,Ask the questions:1) At what
age were both the parents when the child was born? 2) How many half
brothers and sisters does the child have?I, for one, have zero doubt
in my mind as to what will be found. Do DNA testing to determine
the true parents...Map out the "family" trees...End the
speculation...Certainly, you could ask the Mormons for help.as
the Genealogy records are quite rich.The Family Search database must be of
some value in this situation..if not, why would this be?Lastly, I
was in Utah during this raid and was absolutely shocked at the local news
reporting. As an East Coaster, our friends in Texas are doing the right thing
if it saves generations of children in the future, without question. Laws are
laws, so I'm surprised at the emphasis on this story by local papers and the
overall discussions locally at the time.The ultimate step to
recovery is admitting the problem, not hiding it. Wasnt this already agreed a
"1. If the mothers had answered the police, they would have been left with
"their" children.They refused to answer (as did the children).It is their fault."No one is required to answer any
questions (even the Miranda Rights says they have the right to remain silent).
And especially without the presence of their lawyer. And especially if they've
committed no crime. The exception is, of course, if your in Nazi's Germany."2. Don't even try to compare these people with the Amish. There are two
reasons to hide: to beark the law or to stay pure. They sure as heck weren't the
latter."Why not compare? Both groups want to be separated from the
rest of the world... And apparently for good reasons.
They need to appeal to both the governor (as they are doing) and John McCain.
President Bush has nothing to lose at this point and John McCain will have to
make a move!The second amendment provides for a civilian check on
excessive government. It is time for the leaders of our country to enforce some
common sense or risk civilians taking up arms to defend themselves against such
ridiculous actions by overzealous judges and police pawns.I applaud
the people of this church for their restraint but at some point there must be a
time for action to take back their children.Wake up America!
What have they done? They can't produce the alleged accuser and it seems to me
their worst offense is dressing funny and getting married young. If that is
against the law, let's start rounding up the freaking Muslims.
What is wrong with polygamy? Aside from the abuses practiced by "religious"
people, I can find no reason in my experience to deny any people the right to
live as they please as long as it causes no harm to them or others.Warping social norms of what constitutes harm for religious purposes (underage
sex, statutory rape, etc.) is the only danger I see. If these people followed
the law of the land instead of supposing that God wanted them to have sex with
13-year-olds, we would not have a problem with polygamy; it would be just
another alternative lifestyle.It seems more likely that it is the
oddball religious aspects of the practice of polygamy that have always thrown it
outside the mainstream rather than the practice itself.Keep the
Kool-Aid in the fridge and obey the law, folks.
"I want the world to know that there is a nothing stronger than love and there
is an inborn, God-given love between a mother and her children, and all a mother
wants for her children is the very best" Monica said."I can not
believe how many people are supporting these women after the things they've
allowed. The very best? Is the very best being secluded from the world, married
off as a child, cast away as a teenage boy, given a high likelihood of a genetic
disease because of inbreeding? Aren't all these things illegal? You can argue
these things haven't been "proven." I say I've seen enough to make my mind up
that this does occur at SOME level. It's darn sure enough to take these
children into a safer environment for the time being. I don't feel
sorry for their crocodile tears. The ones not allowed to go should have spoken
up about identities. Why so secret? Kudos to officials.
>>The one thing that has confused me about this story from the start is how the
grown women (not the girls) would continually tolerate the abusive system
portrayed in the press.
I've tried to write what needs to be said to all of this, but Anonymous said it
so much better,"Polygamy is wrong on many levels. If abuse is happening,
it should be stopped. If underage marriage is forced, it should be stopped.
However, in a society that allows (and often celebrates) gay relationships, gay
"couples" adopting children, out-of-wedlock births and rampant divorce, for the
government to punish every member of this society is ludicrous!"In
America we can have sexual relations with whomever we want, male or female, have
children with whomever we want, in and out of wedlock, and it's not punishable
by law. But get married to more than one woman and have children and it's worthy
of a government raid. As anti-polygamy as I am (it makes me sick), there is
something seriously wrong with the Texas government taking over 400 children
from their homes. It's hard to believe that they were ALL being abused.
nut jobs ... Polygamy is a crime. None of these people should ever get their
"And what about the Hundreds of lost boys that get sent packing every year
because they are competition to the old bulls?"Where's the beef? By
what many have posted here they are the lucky ones for having "escaped."
Oh, some here want to grow rich by suing. While no seated judge is gonna just
welcome in rabid lawsuits against the state. Sorry. Call it a big toss out the
windah.As to the "mothers" ... I seem to think that originally,
birth mothers WERE NOT WITH THEIR CHILDREN! This Monica was "out." So, young
mothers did get OUT of the compound. Leaving in charge women who call
themselves "mothers."When the authorities as the "mothers" to
identify their chilren; they went silent, instead. Maybe, a dumb lawyer told
them that trick? The authority actually has VESTED POWERS. And,
they proceeded against this cult. Good luck to ya on your lawsuits. Hey. You
can go to Vegas with your winnings, and then really, really grow rich.I feel sorry for the girls. As to the men, involved? Good luck trying to
find them. A big clue, too, was the "mothers" with fake birth certificates.
This cult knew how to protect itself; yeah.
I think the evidence lies in the pregnant bellies of so many minors who are
already parenting multiple children at 16 and 17. I am proud that Texas has
rescued these children from predatory men and women who look the other way,
and/or aid and abet their crimes. Let's not forget the beds in the temple where
these little girls were being raped. As one Texas trooper said, when you have a
16 year old girl, pregnant, with 3 other babies, well, you do the math. It is
obvious there was a whole community working to groom these girls for their
eventual rapes (it is rape in Texas), and then protect their attackers. In such
an environment, it is not hard to consider the difficulties a young accuser
would face in coming forward at this point. I don't think these complaining
mothers will find much sympathy in Texas, and as far as suing the state--bring
it on. We don't put up with this kind of crap in these parts. They got their 4
years of due process, and then we got the call that allowed us to move in and
free the captives. God bless Texas!
Don says it so wellReading the vicious comments over the past few days,it clearly portrays the hatred that sits just underthe surface in
peoples hearts. Punish the offending individual, if the facts are there. But to
destroy an entire community is beyond the pale.The Native Americans know exactly
what is being done in Texas.In the late 1800's, this same "Program" being
usedagainst these people today, was used to "Deprogram"the Indians,
and break them from the "Old Ways", oftheir people. They were ripped from
their families,and sent far from them. They were not allowed to even speak
their own language, of worship as they belived. History is repeating itself. Now
the storyis coming out, that the purported phone call, may have been a
hoax. If this proves true, then what. Will the State of Texas change their story
as to whythey conducted themselves in such a tawdry manner, and how will
they justify themselves. At least in Waco, Texas and the Feds got to burn up the
I hope at least some of these kids now have a chance to live a normal life,
something they didn't have before...it might be hard on the kids for a while,
but children adapt quickly and cope well with change...BTW- maybe
they'll be able to go the movies or play baseball for the first time!
"Don't forget that they found a bed inside the temple to consummate the
marriage. That's just wrong."Then they should have arrested and
sequestered the bed for being complicit.
Where are the men?? They are the ones who broke the law. Saw a expose' on TV a
couple of years ago about these pologimist. The men have 12,14,16 children, from
several different wifes, and they are all on welfare. The women won't say who
the fathers are, and the state pays welfare. The women are brainwashed by the
men and so are the children. I do not want my tax dollars to pay for a mans
"right" to have as many children as possible from several wifes. Do you really
think that if wefare wasn't there, that they could afford to pro-create these
days, like they do?? Not to mention the insest that is rampent amoung the
sect,first cousins married to first cousins,etc. and old men marrying young
girls. The men have and love the power they have over the women and children,
and they love having the power of multiple sexual relationships for themselves.
What happens if one of the women decided they want muliple relationships with
other men ??
Outrageous! How can we stand idly by and let this happen in our country! Can we
really let this happen in America? I will not, and cannot, think that we can
seriously let this go without serious repercussions toward the Texas law
officials who actually directed this action. Reprehensible! Who's next? The
Amish, the Mennonites, the Mormons, the Jews, the Jehovah's Witnesses? Fear NOW
for your country.
these Beautiful Women see in these men? How could they have such strong control
over these women? What a sad sad deal...
The children should be taken away from their mothers as well since the mothers
support having their under 16 year old daughters wed older men in a pologamy
marriage arrangement. The moms are sex abusers of the girls as much as the
older men. Like it or not, none of those kids are going back to their parents.
Oh by the way Pat (7:30 a.m. Apr. 13, 2008);Polygamy is not a religion; it
is a cultural practice where a man has two or more wives.That fact that
this group cloysters and brain-washes their children and then has 13 year old
girls marry old men has nothing to do with polygamy.And another thing; do
we see anybody complaining about the atrocities perpetrated on women and
children in Islamic countries? These are most horrendous but of course we can't
say anything because that might be contrued to be Islam-a-phobic. But it't
alright to bash people if they are in anyway identified as christians, however
Make no mistake. This action was not necessarily to protect the children. It
was an excuse for a deeper motive of the Government of Texas. The action, like
Waco, was an effort to stretch and test the limits of the Texas constitution and
the Constitution of the United States. Also, the first amendment does say that
CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW, regarding the ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION. I don't
believe the government has the right to tell any faith they can't practice
polygamy. What it can do is protect prosecute people for hurting others. NO
PROOF HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORTH in this case. The FLDS's culture is diffent than
the vast majority of the rest of America. That doesn't make their culture bad.
Just different. If they are breaking laws concerning rape, statutory rape,
physical abuse, incest and or marriage before coming of age, then the State of
Texas can do something. Otherwise, leave'em alone. I agree that the men
should've been taken off campus, leaving the women and children there.
America is lost.
What I'd like to know is: Where is the 16 year old that made the complaint? If
they don't have her, then they don't have any legal basis for doing their legal
illegal raid. Where is the complainant?I think in the end Texas will
end up paying through the nose for this travesty. Is it just the first of many
trials to see how far they, Texas, can go in taking away religious freedom?
If there is any chance of children being sexually abused then something has to
be done. The parents that voluntarily marry their young daughters to old men
are brain washed and not looking out for the best interest of their daughters.
Brainwashed women raising brainwashed children, all the result of a few
sexual-perverted men hiding behind the cloak of religion, who want to sleep with
teenagers and slap them around from time to time for the fun of it.And we
thought muslims were bad . . .
I just think it is to early to make a judgement. If one little girl was abused
the it was worth it. I say wait and see and hold judgement until then.
They should have stayed in Utah, where their polygamist lifestyle is mainstream,
legal and approved of.
As a God fearing person, I believe Jesus is crying about how these people can
call themselves Christians. It sickens me that these people think they are doing
God work when they are forcing 13 year old girls to have sex with 50 year old
men. All people are evil and you can not escape that by being in a compound and
cut off from the rest of the world.What they are doing is RAPE, and
no amount of "understanding" will undo that.
I'm just glad that this wasn't in Waco, Janet Reno wasn't involved and there was
We jumped into Iraq based on the assumption there were WMD. Texas Ranges ripped
children from their parents based on assumptions. Texas seems to generate a
mind-set of act first and think second. Clearly abusers needs to be punished and
punished harshly. There had better be compelling facts to back-up the actions
of ripping all children from their mothers...
Maybe since the Texas Rangers are practiced up on raiding Churches they can now
ransack the Catholic Churches in Texas and remove all of the altar boys into
State custody. I'm sure that would go over well. I don't agree with the FLDS,
but if you agre going to raid every Church with a sex scandal be prepared to
face a long legal fight with numerous Church/State ethical questions. You'd
think after Waco, Texas would have learned a few things.
It was very telling that they took away the children in Baptist Church vehicles.
Oh good grief....come into the year 2008. Stop making little girls get married
and have 8 kids! Let these kids have a normal life with FREEDOM...the men who
run this phony church all seem to be perverts...........do what's right for your
babies and stop believing the nonsense this "church" preaches.............
There is something not right with what the Texas authorities did. I spent may
years in Arabia they also take many wives. Ive heard not griping about that.
We get our oil from them and the government deals with them everyday. Maybe we
should insist that our goverment not deal with Arabs. Where were the
warrants of particulars? Something really stinks. Didnt they learn from Waco,
or are we really slaves serving at the whims of authority. The great American
experiment seems over. With lies being bantered about as truth, and elitists
seeking to control all others, with the excuse of socialism. I do not like what
these cops did at all, I hope someone sues the pants off them.
How about the sixteen year old who called authorities back in March, does anyone
know where she is? Doesn't this worry anyone? This outfit sounds more like a
mafia operation all the time.
At least the Government Storm troops did not burn these women and children out
like Janet Reno did in Waco. Who's next. Maybe the authorities might not like
what the catholics are doing, or maybe it will be the Baptists. Maybe it will be
King Soloman, who God favored, had 700 wifes. What's the problem? What ever
happened to freedom and independence for God fearing, quiet people in this land
of the free? If a teenager got raped then arrest the perp. Why do jack booted
Texas thugs arrest innocent women and children who weren't hurting anybody?
Taking babies away from their mothers? What is this? Nazi Germany?
It's outrageous. It's only because these people live outside the society that is
controlled and monitored by our police state. I don't agree with
this lifestyle, but I don't agree with the gangbanger lifestyle, the slacker
lifestyle, the surfer lifestyle, the city-slicker lifestyle etc. But as long as
people live within reasonable laws, they should be left alone. Polygamy is a
choice between consenting adults. NOW, in cases like the single one
reported, yes, law enforcement should intervene. But this blanket attack on a
community should not be tolerated by a just nation.
I see where terms of common law marriage, polygamy, spiritual marriage. When
these women/child brides go to apply for social services/welfare and 'free'
subsidies, how are they labeled? Single mothers. How honorable of these male
abusers. Not only do they abuse, but they committ fraud and from the reading of
these posts, apparently have gotten away with it with many tax payers blessings!
Interesting.. remember Janet Reno using the fbi to grab the boy from Cuba so he
could be sent back to be with his father, and essentally brainwashed for life.
Our government did this with no knowledge of his home in Cuba, yet our
government breaks up American families?? While polygamy is wrong, it is also
wrong to strip children from their parents. This must be investigated by all
sides and the children who were not abused need to be returned to their natural
It's another Waco Texas, Ruby Ridge, or countless other crimes perpetrated upon
innocent people who are deemed "different" by the federal, state, school, local
and county governments .. The problem is the folks in the FLDS compound took
hold of their valises and boarded the boxcars without complaint. Didn't
something similar happen maybe sixty years ago in Europe somewhere? Oh, I should
have known--- the raid was for the good of the c-h-i-l-d-r-e-n. Now that the
children are under direct government ownership, they'll never be abused ever
again.. poor things...
wrz - 'I'm sure there are dirty old men lurking in perhaps Dallas, Houston, or
Fort Worth. Do you see Texas law enforcement emptying those communities of all
their children?' I would hope in Texas and any other state the law
enforcement would step in when 'fathers' and others are abusing women and
children.Read Escape by Carolyn Jessop.
This article by Nancy & Brian is way off base. I have been in San Anglo a lot
the last week. The people of Texas are taking very good care of the women and
children. The men of this group are nothing but pediophiles. Nazi Germany my
I just hope the judge that issued the search warrent has credible grounds for it
and did not do it as a favor or on pure hearsay evidence.If you cannot
trust a judge to follow the law then no one in government can be trusted.
Why are men so controlled by sex that they would go to this length to get a
constant access to the youngest of our girls? Makes me want to slap every man I
Those who scream 'Religious Persecution' need to read Carolyn Jessop's book
"Escape" (then Jon Krakuer's "Under the Banner of Heaven"). Carolyn gives her
personal story of what it was like to grow up in this 'cult' (as she calls it).
After reading it, it sounds like the FLDS men (especially the self-proclaimed
prophet, etc) have the perfect scam going. Scare the hell out of everyone
(namingly the women & children) into a future of eternal damnation if they are
not 'perfectly obedient' to their husbands/the prophet. These men have truly
lost focus (if God really was it to start with)...they seem to worship the
Almighty Dollar. This sect has millions...the women & children are forced to
hand over anything they receive (welfare), live in poverty, therefore ensuring
their EVIL leaders' pockets remain fat. The men, especially those 'in charge'
should be the ones punished. I believe these women and children will definitely
have a place in Heaven for all that they have endured and their abiding faith in
God. I think that most of these men (Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop, etc)
deserve the opposite. They have truly perverted what it means to have faith in
It is abusive to force a young girl to marry a middle aged man who has a bunch
of other wives. How could any mother want that for her daughter unless she has
been brainwashed to believe that is what God wants. This whole religion is just
a hoax to give men the pleasure of having sex with multiple women, and in many
cases practically children. I think they should have taken the men away and
locked them up, and left the mothers and children together. Then had counselors
come in and educate them about what rights they have and whether or not they
really want to live this way - especially the young girls who haven't been
married off yet. They also ought to teach these mothers that it is not exactly
loving to have your sons sent away or deprived of a normal life just so that
some middle aged pig can do what he wants without competition or so that the
girls have no other option than to give their young lives to a selfish, sadistic
egomaniac. This is America - where all people are supposed to have a right to
the pursuit of happiness.
My heart goes out to these mothers, and all I can say is God have mercy on the
souls of the beasts who did this dastardly act! They WILL get their reward!
Wake up people. Texas was already funding this "self reliant" home. These
folks were receiving hundreds and thousands of dollars in welfare, WIC, etc.
There is proof. And as to the Fathers and Mothers, they are laminting the loss
of their children. Maybe when the officials said "whose children are these",
they should have stepped forward. Instead they are "pleading" thier case in the
media. And thier high powered expensive lawyers are now spinning "freedom of
religion" garbage. Worship of God is not the issue. Making 16 year old girls and
younger, marry 50 year old men is illegal, period. Having multiple wives is also
illegal. Teaching your wives that it is okay to cheat the government because it
is evil. Not the real issue of as a man...I have too many wives and children
and I can't provide for them...that is just wrong on many levels... I feel for
the children and for the many 14, 15 & 16 year old girls (not women) that are
pregnant - it isn't good when you find out your parents lied to you, no matter
how many mothers and fathers you have....
commonsense1 | 4:24 p.m. Apr. 13, 2008The inability of the FLDS to
be honest and upright US citizens with something as simple as who their family
members are, is indicative of the secretive, illegal practices and beliefs they
espouse. The police evidence will show the abuses are more numerous than a few
underage marriages.It's time to turn on the lights and expose the
injustices committed against the women and children of this closed community.
The weak and cowardly male members (improper to call them men) of the FLDS group
need to be rounded-up and prosecuted for their pedophilia.================================================Spot on.These people are not "honest" at all!They cannot even answer, in a
straightforward manner, a simple question about who their family members are.And the best their defenders can do is say: "Other people abuse too!"Is that any justification?!! Are they serious!?The
difference between this and sexual abuse outside the ranch is that most people
wouldn't come online to vehemently argue that sexual abuse outside the ranch is
a "peaceful" activity.
This sounds like a Nazi Germany. Lets also get it right they took all the kids
people not just this 16 year old who supposedly called. So take all the pregnant
ones leave the rest!Does anyone really think they are better off at a
foster home? These parents have a God given right to their children. And they
are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Well that was I guess long past. We shoot
first and ask questions later. If I was one of those mothers I would be sitting
in jail right now because they would not have taken my kids w/o fight!Oh
the ones judging why they live the way they do...hmm do you also judge those
with alt lifestyles. Live your life the way you want in the end God will be the
judge. I believe in right and wrong. These people are not perfect but they have
a right to live in peace. So what if they want to be separated from society.
Sometimes I do to there are a lot of behaviors I do not want my kids immitating.
Good thing I know my rights!
Sooo surprised that the state government is shocked, shocked that 15 year old
girls are having sex and getting pregnant. Go into any city and any rural area
and find untold numbers of teenage girls, victims of state-sponsored sex
education and in-school birth control clinics, pregnant, caring for babies, no
thought of a husband, no one supporting these girls or their children but the
state. Who had more "choice" regarding their lifestyle -- the compound girls
married off at young ages, or the young girls on the outside using their sex
appeal for male attention?? Funny how one is intolerable to the state, where
the other is heavily funded, and therefore, encouraged.
Define the difference between a cult and a religion. A cult takes away human
rights...if these leaders hadn't been so busy getting rid of the young men,
abusing & brainwashing the women and children they wouldn't be a situation as
now. These 'men' stole these peoples human rights! The people worked in the
leaders 'businesses' without pay to proser the leaders and did not have a say in
the matter. Read Carolyn Jessop's book, Escape. Then those of you who want to
still say 'leave them to their own lifesytle' should have to go and live in it
for awhile. Read Carolyn Jessop's book, she testified in the Warren Jeffs
case...a tip of the iceberg.
Hal | 12:32 p.m. Apr. 13, 2008===What I don't understand is why the
FLDS were so secretive about their lifestyle?===My guess is that
they wanted to live apart so as not have their children influenced by the
immoral world that we see around us.===If it was so wholesome and
God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why not just live in mainstream society
and just practice your religion like the rest of the Christians do?===Maybe for the same reason the Amish, Mennonites, etc., want to live apart.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1. If the
mothers had answered the police, they would have been left with "their"
children.They refused to answer (as did the children).It
is their fault.2. Don't even try to compare these people with the
Amish. There are two reasons to hide: to beark the law or to stay pure. They
sure as heck weren't the latter.
Hellloooooo -- Earth to FLDS -- polygamy is ILLEGAL!! It isn't fair to the
women or their children but I'm sure the men love it since they created it.
These poor women are brainwashed from birth; they are not responsible for this
travesty of a religion. It's always the men who have to have plenty of backups
-- women know better. Remember, "gentlemen", what you sow is what you will reap.
You should all pray that God is merciful because you men are all violating His
Polygamists are all pedophiles
It is sad to see how many people are fooled by this groups play for sympathy.
FLDS is not a religion. It is a criminal organization that traffics young girls
and women into sexual slavery. When the children involved reach adulthood they
deserve the same right to freedom and self determination that every other
the last time there was a raid in Texas of a religious camp the government
burned women and children alive. At least the Dems were not in charge of this
The one thing that has confused me about this story from the start is how the
grown women (not the girls) would continually tolerate the abusive system
portrayed in the press. It just seems impossible to believe that in a community
this large, some women wouldn't come forward and demand an end to it. Maybe the
reason is, the allegations aren't true, or that we aren't being told the whole
story.At this point, I really don't know who to believe. The mistake the
government made at Waco was that, instead of simply arresting Koresh (which they
had every opportunity to do), they forced a showdown with an entire community.
I hope maybe they learned something from that.
Religion is destroying civilization.. Anyone who defends polygamist practices
must either be a woman who thinks little of her sex or a man. You may have the
"right" to follow religious practices, but that doesn't give you the "right" to
degrade women or abuse children.
Buggery, prostitution, porn, adultery and other deviant behaviors are legal but
POLYGAMY now that is a REAL crime.
These saints are just the newest victims of the New World Order. They are lucky
that Janet Reno is not in charge, or they would have been burned alive as in
Waco. These are moral people seeking privacy and peace. I don't share all of
their beliefs, and you don't share mine. But I still believe in "due process of
law." What we have here is the Iron Heel of Tyranny. These Mormons don't
advocate gay marriage or serial divorces -- they advocate marriage, committment
and family values. I have met polygamists and their happy wives. Although I
myself wouldn't want to have multiple mothers-in-law, that is their business and
not mine. I have seen more wholesomeness in polygamous households than I have
in what passes for marriage in contemporary America. THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS
HOUSES ------------------ SHOULDN'T THROW STONES!!!!
Read Escape by Carolyn Jessop. Published last year. Merril Jessop is a madman.
One reader wondered how much government assistance these people were receiving.
Likely no more than those living in New Orleans. As much as I disagree with
their FLDS religious social practices they are known to be hardworking and
independent. I would like to see how many Muslims in this country with
multiple wives have their doors crashed in searching for evidence of child and
spousal abuse. The law should be applied equally to all.
Usually, when a crime is alleged; a search warrant is served. When probable
cause is found, the search warrant is expanded to match the new evidence. After
the guilty are identified, they are arrested and the rest go about their
lives.In this case, we have a 'phantom' accuser. Now, there is this
irritating little scrap of paper called the US Constitution that says that we
have a 'right' to face our accuser. We are also living under the "innocent
until proved guilty" type of law - except if you are FLDS.If you are
FLDS, you can have an unsubstantiated phone call cause 400+ people to be rounded
up like animals, and forcibly separated. The parallel to Nazi Germany is
uncanny. Instead of Jews being rounded up and shipped off, their property
seized without charge or trial, we have the FLDS group.Why bother
with a trial? The papers have found them guilty, as have some people here. Is
Warren Jeffs a criminal? Yup. But, he got his day in trial.What
ever they do to the FLDS, they can also do to YOU. I'd suggest we follow our
Constitution, it's served us well for 200+ years.
Lucy, somebody got a whole lot a 'splainin' to do!
Have they found the 16 year old girl? What if they don't find her or it is
proven to be a hoax?Does the government pay for the mistake? Why did
they take all the children if they were just looking forr a 16 year old?
Do Texans always shoot first and think later? They screwed up with Waco to...
And child protective services has NEVER been a champion for children :-(
Merrill Jessop is a liar... Just pick up the book ESCAPE written by one of his
wives who did just that... The women undoubtedly love their children but they
have no voice and must allow their daughters to be 'wedded' to these men old
enough to be their grandfathers. (And what about the Hundreds of lost boys that
get sent packing every year because they are competition to the old bulls?)
These "husbands" have all the power... It's sad that it has come to this. I'm
glad something is happening for these women and children who have no voice or a
voice that speaks only what they have been taught to say. Carolyn I'm
praying for Betsy...
How interesting that the government is so concerned for 400 children that it
would remove them from their mothers, while looking the other way for decades as
over 30 million children were murdered in a wave of genocide in this "free"
Boo hoo,If she wanted to keep her children she should have answered
the police officers.These people have no qualms in using the
"police" in Colorado City/Hildale to do their nasty bidding; yet now they can't
cooperate with a simple police question.Inbreeding and teen
marriages, lost boys and all this under the watch of Merril Jessop, the villain
of the true-life story "Escape!" (by his ex-"wife").I have no
sympathy for these people.These children deserve to be taken away
and brought up in homes where they will learn that black people are not
"monkeys" (gasp!), education is not a sin, and that the purpose of life is not
to accumulate a many sex partners as possible.
I am more amazed at the blind defence of the pedophile, polygamist than I am of
the original act. What is going on in FLDS compounds is plainly against the laws
of the US, which do apply to the members of this church. Polygamy is a crime in
the US and even the LDS church had a convenient revelation to ensure its
statehood. It was tough for them, but hey they get to practice polygamy in
heaven so it isn't all that bad for them.No one in the US is above
the law (except Mayor Kilpatrick in Detroit), even when they hide behind the
warped beliefs of their "religion". Clearly the men of the FLDS should be locked
up and if the women turn a blind eye as their daughters are sexually abused by
predators at age 13 then they are equally guilty and should be arrested. Save the children! Give them a chance to live without their innocence
stolen by the practices of pedophile polygamists. No sympathy here for the
mothers and certainly not for the fathers.
Since Polygamy is agaimst the law, Why are the Muslims allowed to practice it?
When are the police going to raid their homes & Mosques? To set the record
straight. these people are not Mormons. Mormons have not practiced polygamy in
100 years or so.Also, I believe these people have the "RIGHT" toworship as
they please. This is guaranteed by our Constitution. Or is the
Constitution no longer relevant? These Baptist & Evangicals need to leave other
Religions alone.They are just a bunch of busy-bodies.
They should ask the men to voluntarily switch places with the women and children
until they can investigate matters and proceed accordingly. I can't see how they
could arrest the men without an investigation. (Some of the men may not have any
wives, or may have only one adult wife.) However, the men might willingly switch
places, so that the women and children could return home. The authorities could
continue to investigate the women and children on the ranch.
Whoever heard of a legal warrant being based on an annonynous phone call? This
epidsode is a sickening display of abuse of power. The predominant religion of
the area provided the buses that hauled the children away. So we have the
principle of separation of church and state roundly abused by some very ignorant
and ill advised people.
Few thoughts: 1) I think one lesson we can learn from this is that
there should be a NATIONAL Standard that dictates the age of marriage. Its
interesting that young kids can get married before they can drink, vote or even
drive. I think the national age of marriage should be 18 for both genders. 2) The Federal Government failed horribly in conducting the raid and
unless they find the mystery caller...all evidence seized will be held illegal
under the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" Doctrine. 3) Don't forget
that they found a bed inside the temple to consummate the marriage. That's just
wrong. 4) There's a HUGE difference between the LDS Church
(headquartered in SLC) and the FLDS Church in TX. Please don't mix or confuse
the two as being the same denomination.
I wonder how many of those folks were getting government assistance. It doesn't
look like there was any work going on. In fact the only "work" was probably
making babies. Sick.
it is simply astomishing to me that so many people are willing to defend
I am sure these mothers love their kids but getting them out of this compound is
the first step towards letting them live a life of freedom. We live in a
society where we value choice, yet those women don't know what other choices
they have. Good job law enforcement for finally stepping in!
If this had been a bunch of eco-warriors or some other left-wing compound, the
government wouldn't have touched them with a ten foot pole. Jim Jones operated
his nut-house for years and nobody said anything because he was a good Socialist
comrade and Christian-hater. Funny the media never talked about that, and yet
they apply the Kool-aid cliche' to religious groups now.
Why is our government in love with the idea of taking children away from their
parents? Maybe because Marx loved the idea as well. One complaint is made by
one child and yet over 400 children are confiscated like animals.For all
of you who are oh so happy that all of these lives have been destoyed, remember;
next time it might be your child that is ripped from your arms forever. A
Marxist government doesn't play favorites.
Any mother who allows her minor children to be used in ritual sex is complicit
in my opinion. I don't think the adult females should automatically get a free
ride here. The adult women were not raised here. The news said this place was
built in 2004. The grown adult women over the age of 22 have seen life on the
outside. They should know better.
Since when is forcing 14 year old girl to have sex with men 17 years old or old
enough to be her grandfather not a crime? Sure sounds like a lot of conditioning
reflex and brain washing went on in this church. Sure sounds like another
Jonestown, right here in the US. Stepford wifes..just plain weird.
Leave it to the government to goof this up. As mentioned by others, why
terrorize these children? Find the men clearly identified as abusive and haul
Having sex with a minor is against the law.Whether you people think it's
"spritual marriage" or not. It's an abuse of power.
I agree with 4:46. It is hard to feel sorry for these people. They
are perverse and corrupt with their sexual slavery and now they want to whine
they are being mistreated by the immoral outsiders, denied of their rights.I think we traveled that path before - 1861-1865. Sorry FLDS, this war,
like the other, is one you are destined to lose. Get in line behind the
Confederate flag wavers to complain.
Listening to thest interviews, religion isn't the issue here. It is a cult,
people's human rights are being taken away from them and they are fearful of the
'outsiders'. Young boys and men are chased off to leave the females to the
older men. This is atrocious! Action is long overdue. These women and
children in the shelters will not be there forever, there is work that needs to
be done. As free citizens, we must support our freedom. These people are held
by fear, alienation and punishment. If we don't keep citizens rights free, then
we will all eventually suffer.
I think whatever this eventually costs will be worth it to get a look at what is
happening inside these human puppy mills (as someone previously said). And I
think it will be worth it to get a good look at the impotence of the LDS as they
stand by and point fingers at FLDS while hoping no one will notice that that IS
the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that's turning the nation's
stomach now as it did then.
No more "first name only" stories. For the love!Perhaps it's all
right to use a single-name source sparingly to crack open a story. Day after
day, though? You've lost credibility, Deseret News, when you abandon
journalistic ethics repeatedly.Tell your news sources this: Tell me
your first and last names, or your comments can't be used in the news. It's as
simple as that. If the things they have to say are as important to them as
they're saying here, they'll let you use it. If not, then why present this
shoddy, ambiguous story to us? If there are dozens of Monicas,
Shannons, Andreas, Virginias with no last name out there clamoring to be hear by
your readers, then tell them this, as well: You expect credibility in the public
eye by requesting anonymity, yet you're asking us to deny the believability of
an anonymous phone call from one of your fellow church members? GIVE ME A BREAK!
I've had close friends in Texas falsely accused and then abused by the Texas
dept. of child protective services (whatever its exact name). Both families
went through tremendous grief and fear because of false accusations. In one case, their children played barefoot in the front yard of their home,
and so a neighbor accused them of neglecting their children, and the agency
threatened to take away their children. That was the full extent of the "crime"
and the evidence, and they nearly lost their children.So it comes as
no surprise to me (or to Texans) that the state over-reacted so dramatically.As egregious as polygamy and underage marriage is, Texas took the wrong
action. They should have rounded up the men. But instead, child protective
services got the call and sent in the cavalry.
---Having sex with another besides your legal lawful wife and telling someone
about it and having children by another woman is called, under the law "common
law" marriage. You are married to more than one person.---Let's
see... So, if two high school kids had sex, had a child, and told someone (a
parent, Priest, or counselor) about it they are married? Is that your point?---I called it adultery.---I call it a rather common
These men are just perverts, having sex with underage girls, which yes, is
statutory rape, and now stand silent?We have a term for that that can't be
published here. I don't give a whit about what their religious practices
are, it's about whether it's proven they broke the law and damaged the innocent.
The complaints are about rape and abuse. They have to investigate that. We'll
see what happens in court. And let it play out before all the anti government
ranting continues. I can't imagine the logistical nightmare of who the mothers
are, what the names are, how many children, who are the fathers, etc etc.
This whole news thing is separating L-D-S members. MOST PEOPLE IN OUR WARD TODAY
WERE APPALLED with the dumb feel sorry for polygamy routine going on within the
news of Utah. IT'S ALL EXTREMELY SMELLY HOG WASH!Come on guys! This is
nothing but pure old CHILD ABUSE with adulterers, porn pevies, slavery and
fornication. There is nothing religious going on in those polygamist cults. Some
of us know this.
The FLDS are secretive because a raid just like this one happened in 1953 in
Shortcreek. They want to be apart, which is THEIR RIGHT.The Constitution is DEAD. It was killed in action by the Texas
Rangers on orders from the Texas law enforcement.If you want to see
the FLDS open up, then stop using Nazi tactics and strategy.
If they "love" their children so much...why do they allow them to be abused.
Read some of the stories, of which there are many, about people women and the
lost boys who are kicked out...read their stories there are many. And explain
this...a 16 year old was taken who already had 4 kids...YOU DO THE MATH! It is
sexual/rape abuse of kids. I agree it might have been a much better idea
to take the men away instead...but hindsite is always better. My question
is how do you claim to love your children but yet allow them to be sexually
abused by the gross old men...pretators. Does not matter which religion it
is...catholic, Baptist, Morman whatever....ABUSE IS ABUSE...any way you look at
>>If these women love their children SO much, why are they not with them? Other
women left with the children.
It's called slavery.
**noun 1. the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, esp. wife,
at one time.-------Does it say *by the laws of the state???**Then, of course, you'd want Hollywood raided. Or perhaps the Bunny
>>If a judge thought that guns were harmful and considered a potential for abuse
- does that give the courts and police the right to go into the homes of
everyone they think "might" have a gun and take the children from them "for
their protection". What type of "counseling" would their be to make sure the
children could transition away from the harmful and evil side of guns?
===DNA will prove who the mother's and father's are.Then charges can be
filed.=== JoiceThey are all related. Their DNA all matches.
"If you think that is what CPS does when they remove children from potentially
abusive environments, then you scare me."And what scares me is
conduct that you would typically find in Nazi Germany.
"And marrying girls who are underage is against the law there..."Whoa friend. They are not married. By the law of the land anyway. Their
marriages are spiritual... in their temple.
"Instead of justifying the lifestyle, the mainstream LDS members would be better
served to break up these compounds where abuse is systemic. They will tarnish
the image of the church in the way the Islamic fundamentalists have tarnished
mainstream Islam. It's really in your best interest to denounce these
groups."Yeah, right!!! the LDS church has the ability to project its
whims upon any other person or organization. These folks have not been a part of
the LDS church for over a hundred years. Church discipline would never work.These folks are also not in the same vein as Wahabists or other Islamic
fundies. They are not murderbombing anyone. They seem fairly peaceful.There are allocations of abuse. I think Texas will work it out, but to expect
the LDS church to is silly and exceptionally immature.
I agree, the men should have been extracted instead of women and children, but
once CPS was called in, the choice was made to extract all possible victims.Where are these men now? Why do we not hear anything about them?Raising girls to have babies as soon as they reach puberty, what
barbarism under the guise of religion!
It is hard to feel sorry for these women. They live in a society where sexual
abuse is so accepted that they don't even seem to realize it's wrong.
The inability of the FLDS to be honest and upright US citizens with something as
simple as who their family members are, is indicative of the secretive, illegal
practices and beliefs they espouse. The police evidence will show the abuses are
more numerous than a few underage marriages.It's time to turn on the
lights and expose the injustices committed against the women and children of
this closed community. The weak and cowardly male members (improper to call them
men) of the FLDS group need to be rounded-up and prosecuted for their
First and foremost, the children must be safe. Kudos to Texas for stepping in.
FLDS member states "How can this happen in America?" The polygamists can't
choose which laws they want to obey and which to ignore.These
pedophiles (men and women)are brainwashing children and raising their own little
Hal: please don't drag the Amish and the Mennonites into this cat fight. They
don't do what the FLDS has been practicing: polygamy, and based on convictions
in court, child abuse. We have Mennonites live in our area and they mingle with
us, etc. They even, forbid, hold scientific research positions at the
university. They are my neighbors. They send their children out into the world
to do good. The Mennonites are not like the FLDS.
(sloop)John B. Your comments are unsubstantiated and vague at best.
There is no proof of abuse yet. You've heard the media talk about 16 yr old
girls being pregnant. That's not against Texas law buddy.
TO JESSE JAMES: The issue is not the long history of Polygamy as you
say it is, but what has happened in Eldorado Tx, over the past ten days. Your
bias shows brother or sister. The issue is how CPS handled this matter, and how
or if they violated citizens of the U.S. Civil Liberty's. I agree there's
abuses, but again, the focus should be on what is unfolding in Texas.
I believe that there was probable cause to search. However I also agree that the
men should have been removed and not the women and children from the compound.
The authorities found evidence of under age mothers. So there was child abuse
going on. Let the justice system take it's course.
the law says CPS has to investegate child abuse by taking the children from the
parents until they are sure the children will be safe in the home .sence nether
the children or the mothers would say who the children belonged to and they knew
that some of them had been abused by law they had to take all of them. and if
the mothers let their 13yr old girls be forceed into mariage and yet as the
report said had contact with the outside world they are as guilty as the men in
the site of justus this probley wont be printed because it dont agree with most
There is no need for a "cloak of charity" when we already have a long track
record. We already know that within the FLDS community men marry underage
women. How do we know this? We have witnesses/victims that have told us so.
We also have young women with multiple children. We have "lost boys" that have
been kicked out of the community and struggle to survive along with their eye
witness accounts. Why were they kicked out? Because they were competition for
females. The truths have already been laid out with other names of other
victims. We also know that incest occurs as a standard course, so you may want
to look up fumerase deficiency to get you up to speed. Adultery, whether church
sanctioned or not, is not the issue. The issue at hand is child abuse and child
sexual abuse, again recent history shows us that this is not only likely but
probable.Now look at your bible and point to the first polygamist...oh a
murderer. Then we have Abraham with Hagar and still suffer the trouble that
union caused.Again it is about crimes that are consistent with the group.
Kudos to Texas.
If these women love their children SO much, why are they not with them? Other
women left with the children. No one would take my children with out
me going too.... and from my understanding there are many women who went with
"Women and Children first!" Is not meant to cause pain, and seperate loved ones
in this age of awareness and care. This Texas case is a throw-back historically
to when "women and cildren" had no rights. We are witness to the devolution of
justice. It is much easier to round-up the weak and defenseless and
bully them into submission. If there are victims here, it IS the women &
children. If there are victimizers, it IS the men! "GET THE MEN!!"
Incarcerate them, for safe-keeping, if they are a danger and a threat to their
community's defenseless members.Then exercise "due process". That's
the way in any country that protects its citizens from abuse. We are all too
familiar with countries that run counter to those standards. Now in America? So
We all know these women wouldn't be talking without the express permission of
the higher-ups. It's interesting to note the stone-deaf silence coming from the
men. It shows what cowards the male predators really are. In the long run, I
hope these kids (especially all of the pregnant teens who have been raped) are
able to lead happy, normal lives away from the mind control and abuse.
David:Remember the proverbial "cloak of charity". Now, would be a
great time excerise the use of it. I understand your frustration, but maybe you
could just hang back awhile and let this situation work out and see who violated
Having sex with another besides your legal lawful wife and telling someone about
it and having children by another woman is called, under the law "common law"
marriage. You are married to more than one person. I called it adultery. What
you called it not a legal description. OH, year, it's just sex. Reality eludes
Wow! Regardless of what we all might think of polygamy, to hear this mother of
five talk about her loss is heart wrenching. The affects of this will affect us
all. Wow! Look at the power we've given Child Protective Services. Big
Government. Let's give em more power more money. Good work Law Enforcement. Yet
another example of poorly executed judgement on the part of our elected
officials. Government knows best. The state of Texas is treating their citizens
like chattel. Unbelievable.
To David--Your point is exactly the same as mine. Religion or no
religion, tears or no tears, bias or no bias, this is abuse. Plain, outright
abuse. What most people tend to whine, then, is "well, other people
abuse girls toooooo . . ."So that must make the FLDS abuse A-OK.
What's wrong with the FLDS is that they teach that this is NORMAL
(like David said). It is NORMAL there for a husband to beat up his wife.To Huh?--Okay. I get it. So being "spiritually"
married makes it all okay.GARBAGE!I can't believe you
are trying to snake your way out of the truth like this.-------polygamy [puh-lig-uh-mee] noun 1. the practice or
condition of having more than one spouse, esp. wife, at one time. -------Does it say *by the laws of the state???*
Seems to me that Texas authorities had some reason to look into the situation at
the fundamentalist ranch. It was handled very wrongly however. In the process of
protecting one persons rights they violated a great many other person's rights.
Was the raid for the greater good? No! The raid was fashioned as not to have
another Waco incident. Texas has a history of dealing with reclusive religions
in a "Jack Boot" style. It will happen again I'll bet. The role of law is to
protect the indiviual from the rest of us. In doing so the law can not violate
the rights of others. This business is tragic and wrong. Texas should have
investigated the reason for the aledged call for help by going to the ranch with
search warrent. I'm sure the sheriff doesn't follow up anonymous phone calls
from other places in his jurisdiction with such zeal and back up. This whole
mess could have been a voined with some thought.
My problem with this raidsince the beginningis how poorly thought out it appears
to have been. There are likely cases of abuse going on, and perhaps a whole lot
of them. If the state wanted to take down the FLDS faith, the best way to do it
is to destroy their credibility and systematically demonstrate systematic abuse.
Instead, they've raided the compound, taken the abused (instead of the
accused) and sequestered them from their loved ones. Now, the state is in a
very defensive mode and has to prove everyone's guilt all at one.
Instead, they could have identified a single case of abuse. Then another, then
another. After several such cases came into the public eye, the entire public
would be on the State's side. We are, after all, a national of precedence. All they have done is to create a martyred group that they cannot possibly
fend off all at once, and to solidify any beliefs--misconceived or
otherwise--that these folks had about the 'outside' world. This was
I will treat the FLDS adults with respect when they stop abusing their sons and
daughters. When the FLDS community allows other members to rape children, then
they too are guilty. The big picture is about removing children from homes that
ALLOW for child rape not about pretended religious freedom since the religious
freedom would be in allowing old men to have sex with young girls....that
remains child rape. Boo hoo families are being separated...tough. Again folks,
it's about child abuse and child sexual abuse. Don't forget that when the FLDS
mothers cry. How much protest was made by those SAME MOTHERS as 13 year olds
were "taken" on the "holy temple bed" immediately following marriage? How
quickly were those same mothers to let the "church authorities" know that there
daughters were now "women?" Sorry, I feel no sympathy for crocodile tears
considering the situation.
If a judge thought that guns were harmful and considered a potential for abuse -
does that give the courts and police the right to go into the homes of everyone
they think "might" have a gun and take the children from them "for their
protection". What type of "counseling" would their be to make sure the children
could transition away from the harmful and evil side of guns?
DNA will prove who the mother's and father's are.Then charges can be
filed. Rape is rape I don't care who or where you are.
Looks like every government conspiracy, religious nut WACKO in the world came
out of the woodwork to post today.
Seizure and kidnapping? If you think that is what CPS does when
they remove children from potentially abusive environments, then you scare me.
However this situation went down, it is about making sure that the kids are safe
in their religious commune before returning them to their parents. All children
have a constitutional right to be safe and free from abuse and neglect. Parents
cant abdicate their responsibility to their children and whether you like it or
not, the government is required to remove children and investigate complaints of
alleged abuse or neglect on their behalf.
These people are human beings not some sub-human species. They may belong to a
"different" kind of religion, but they are still human and need to be treated
This just is creating more martyrdom with some of the religious nuts who think
these people were targeted. The law enforcement offices there had a good
relationship with the compound it was reported.It was the phone calls
received and then the affidavit of a rape allegation and abuse that led them to
get a warrant for search.The kids and mothers are innocent, I'll agree
with that. But their leaders are not.Don't worry; all you people who
think that the goverment went too far will feel justified when it turns out that
none of the victims turn on their "leaders" because they are too afraid.
Tell it to the judge!!!
These kids have been kidnapped. Back in 1953 LeRoy Johnson made a promise to
find every child after the state of Arizona kidnapped them. He fought the state
in court to prevent the kids from getting addopted out. He defended the Navajo
Nation at the same time because the State would steel their children away and
adopt them out without permission of the parents. Roy Johnson helped to stop
that. Roy related an incident about meeting the Chief of the Navajo near Paige
Utah. The chief thanked him and promised to help the people of Short creek with
anything they needed. Maybe it's time to call in the great Navajo nation to help
to free these kids.
As Hal pointed out,that as the Amish and Mennonitesdesire to live
peaceful, quiet and dignified lives,can we not allow them to do so. Must
we compel allto some "National Standard" of conformity?Just food for
thought,all of us might consider reading about "Perpetua", Roman History, 203
A.D.city of Carthage.There is an interesting parallel with today. The
story is very moving. Again follow the Constitution, it is amazing how well it
works,when it is followed. And if a true crime exists, then address that
issue and that individual. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Just a question for the mothers in the article: Would you allow these innocent
children, who cling so piteously to your skirts now, to marry at age 14? Would
you allow a man, 50 years old or so, to marry your teenage daughter and take her
from you then? Would you attend her marriage ceremony and convince her not to
run away? If you were married at a young age and you allow your daughter to be
forced into that lifestyle because YOU believe it is right, how are you being a
good parent? Mothers in this plight are to be pitied, but if they are preparing
their daughters to follow in their footsteps, it seems abusive to me.
"Yes, they practice polygamy, which is in violation of our laws."Polygamy is being MARRIED to more than one person at a time. If these people
were "married" spiritually (not by the laws of the state) in their temple, were
they practicing polygamy? I think not. They were merely having sex with more
than one person (not their spouse) at a time... Something you see in Hollywood
and elsewhere all the time. One professional b-ball player reportedly has 9
kids with 8 different women. Go figure.
Stop whining!These people are stupid sheep who were following a doctrine
that was renounced by the mainstream church. And marrying girls who are
underage is against the law there, no matter how much you don't like it. Don't
excuse it and act like the leaders of this sect are not horrible men.
What the age used to be is irrelavant.It is 16 and they are breaking the
law!!Stupid.Why do they move there? Maybe because UTAH didn't want
them and would go after them.
>>Get your facts straight and educate yourself on State and Federal laws,
especially those involving search and seizure.
Apparently many of you feel that we should just have let the FLDS alone despite
the fact the fact that 16 year old GIRLS in the community have 2 or more
children by 50 year old husbands. "Oh boo hoo we should leave these people
alone and sue the State of Texas." I disagree. These babies have been taught
that sexual abuse is NORMAL. Getting them off the compound gives them the
opportunity to feel safer and possibly talk which they would not do if they
REMAINED on site.Apparently you all also forget that 16 year old
boys are kicked out of the group as competition for females. You see a few
tears and forget the big picture. The FLDS are about abuse and the cycle needs
to be changed. This action was the start of that change unless you cry to leave
the abusers alone which is what it does sound like.
Agree with the poster at 12:25.It's about the law to some of the stupid
people who think it's about religion only. Agree with CL; all abuse is
wrong, whether under the "religious" guise or not. Authorities
investigated based upon a legal search. If there were mistakes, then let the
legal system work. And yeah, before you start with your rantings, there are
laws there specific to underage marriage and living in a "religious" compound
does not exempt people from obeying those laws.
"This is where the social imperative of protecting the young and the vulnerable
collides with the constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion.There
are laws in that state about underage marriage whether you like it or not. Look
it up."Marriage age in Texas once was 14. That's one reason why
FLDS move there. Then Texas upped it to 16. Fourteen was apparently OK for
Texans but not for FLDS.
Use your IQ not your emotion please. Please think with your head not with your
heart. If anyone knows what the constitution says, knows that this search was
illegal, as was the subsequent removal of these children.We are a
nation of laws. And despite what you may want, those laws are often set up to
protect the accused. Our constitution was written, not for the people, but in
order to keep the government at bay, to keep the government from having too much
power over the people. Yes, they practice polygamy, which is in violation of
our laws. But last time I checked in the constitution, the supreme law of this
land, never says a word about polygamy or the practice thereof. But it does
setup grounds for lawful searches and rights of the government.
===What I don't understand is why the FLDS were so secretive about their
lifestyle?===My guess is that they wanted to live apart so as not
have their children influenced by the immoral world that we see around us.===If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why
not just live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the
rest of the Christians do?===Maybe for the same reason the Amish,
Mennonites, etc., want to live apart.
How do YOU know that their 4th amendment rights were violated? Were YOU there?
I believe this question will be addressed in court on Thursday. My understanding
is that while the authorities were there LEGALLY to search for a caller, they
found numerous underage pregnant and teen mothers. Do you really want the
police to ignore calls for help, even if it turns out the call was bogus? Would
you expect the police to turn a blind eye to violations of the law that they
actually witness? Broadening the scope of the search warrant for
evidence and removing all the children did not occur until AFTER officers had
found 18 underage girls who were either pregnant or had recently given birtha
clear violation of statutory rape laws. It was in the news.Get
your facts straight and educate yourself on State and Federal laws, especially
those involving search and seizure.
i feel sorry for the mothers - most of them have been probably abused when they
were younger so they dont know any better - i dont know whether they are right
or wrong - but in my country kids are abused all the time - and if the
athorities are told of such an incident the man is immediatly removed from the
situation... and charged... too much of this has been going on and while i
disagree with the removal of so many children, i believe they were right to act
so swiftly ...children are not chattels - to be used and treated like so much
garbage. I pray for them and ask God that the truth come to light - if these
women know that their children have been hurt then now is the time to stand up
and fight for these kids... dont let the same be done to them... Please..
This is where the social imperative of protecting the young and the vulnerable
collides with the constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion. There
are laws in that state about underage marriage whether you like it or not. Look
it up.Go on and on about all the other abuses in the world, but because
this is associated with "religion" it is more palatable to you? I'm for
equal opportunity in going after abusers, whether they are religious nuts or
anything else.That's not hypocrisy. Saying that is about their religious
beliefs alone is hypocrisy. Victims are often voiceless and that's part of the
problem with all types of abuse cases. Don't try to tell me it's about religion
only. It's not.
**I'm simply amazed at how one news article has so drastically altered people's
stated opinions from what y'all were saying yesterday.**It is
amazing what happens when the truth becomes known.
What I don't understand is why the FLDS were so secretive about their lifestyle?
If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why not just
live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the rest of the
Christians do? Maybe because it wasn't?! ... well, duh...
What Rights!!Smack on comment. America doesn't care, they have lost
their rights so far now in the name of protection, and safety that before they
know it, they will have none left and our Once Great Country will be a shell of
itself, and we will be subject to greater tyranny than could be thought
possible. I am moving from this nation.
CL what proof do you have that more than 1 or 2 cases of what you call underaged
is happening? As I'm aware it wasn't even illegal in that state until Congress
pushed a law through specifically targeting this group. I though Congress was
to pass no law like that. You are the ones that are brainwashed to believe all
that the media tells. Or all that people with less than pure motives express.
I am chagrined to see so many people pass judgment here, and want to take these
precious pure children and indoctrinate them in the "freedom" of the world this
day. Let's teach them that premarital sex is ok, that not covering your body is
a expression of freedom, that dirty old men go everywhere in this world to
fulfill their filthy desires. Let's pull all the children out of the slums in
NY, Detroit, and on top of that the child trafficking that is happening all over
the globe to fulfill men's sickness. You are all hypocrites, and know full well
that this boils down to their religion and their beliefs. Keep spouting all
your perceived wrongs with this group and manifest your own hearts.
I would like 2 point out The Fourth Amendment "The right of the people to be
secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but
upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
AMERICA is FAILING and will 4ever go down hill If we as a people don't stand up
for our Constitutional Rights...Our Forefathers fought lived and died 4 our
freedom. Is this how we repay them?...
>>Regardless of what you think of someone's religious views or practices, this
woman has a right to be with her children. Texas has committed a serious
mistake, shame on them.
Underage girls forced to marry and yes, I said forced because they have been so
indoctrinated that everything else in the world is so evil, is just wrong and
against the law. Why do the polygamists marry off the girls so young? Can
somebody answer that? This is the 21st century, not the pioneer days when people
lived much shorter lives.Isn't it just an abuse of power over others?Believe what you will, but it's not a free choice when you live in fear. They
have to investigate whether there was abuse. The story sounds so pitiful from
these moms, but sorry, the inbreeding and coercion makes me think they wouldn't
admit abuse anyway.
>>Are there pedophiles and 'dirty old men' lurking among these religious people?
>>But let's not forget, before we all pass a judgment, that all the people of
the FLDS community are innocent until proven guilty.
Amen to Don's comment. Unfortunately, vicious people and vicious
practices still exist in this country and will never be stamped out.I just hope that "innocent until proven guilty" survives. I don't agree in any
way with the FLDS, but let's prosecute the real offenders, where and when they
exist, and let's PROVE they are guilty.
Texas did the right thing in removing these children from an abusive situation.
Reading the vicious comments over the past few days,it clearly portrays
the hatred that sits just underthe surface in peoples hearts. Punish the
offending individual, if the facts are there. But to destroy an entire community
is beyond the pale.The Native Americans know exactly what is being done in
Texas.In the late 1800's, this same "Program" being usedagainst
these people today, was used to "Deprogram"the Indians, and break them
from the "Old Ways", oftheir people. They were ripped from their
families,and sent far from them. They were not allowed to even speak their
own language, of worship as they belived. History is repeating itself. Now the
storyis coming out, that the purported phone call, may have been a hoax.
If this proves true, then what. Will the State of Texas change their story as to
whythey conducted themselves in such a tawdry manner, and how will they
justify themselves. At least in Waco, Texas and the Feds got to burn up the
Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps these mothers should have said who their
children were when initially given the opportunity, so that they could leave
with them. Perhaps they should have taught their children to always be honest,
so that when people ask who their parents are, they can give a straight
answer.If the "men" on this compound were really men, they'd own up
to the abuse and trauma they've put these women and children through and turn
themselves in. I can understand why there is some reluctance to place these
women back with their children. In Utah, the law they are violating is "failure
to protect" when they know abuse is occuring and stand idly by. I'm sure Texas
has a similar law.
Another story about the victimized mothers. I notice the men are conspicuously
silent. Most of the comments I have read lead me to believe that most people
(myself included) could care less what alternative lifestyle their neighbors
practice. Very few people however, will stand by and condone underage marriages
of young girls to older men or the abandonment of the excess young boys. Im a married mother of 3 beautiful children and Im insulted that the
FLDS teach their children that we outsiders in the world are evil and not to be
trusted. Its the same faulty generalization that the polygamists complain they
are characterized by. Its unfortunate that the Texas raid will have the
unwanted effect of increasing their already substantial paranoia. Jeffs has not only brought himself down, but his entire congregation by
wielding excessive power and control over their lives in creating his secret
society. Most polygamists skirt bigamy laws by legally marrying only one wife.
I personally dont agree with polygamy and strongly object to welfare payments,
but many polygamists have chosen to integrate into society and practice their
faith without subjecting minors to these abuses. Obviously, the FLDS just cant
figure this out.
Which FLDS leader chose to move to the state of Texas? Who did the research.
Texas takes more children out of the home per capita than any other state. The
FLDS people are breaking the law to allow young girls to marry and they were
unwise to escape the 'safer haven' of Utah/Arizona to practice such crimes.
They may be peace loving people, in general, but they certainly know that they
are breaking the law and that anyone who breaks the law can and may be
prosecuted at some time. They were not thinking of their families and children
when they chose to walk at the edge of the cliff.
Wow. Its clear not many here would survive living in a culture of arranged
marriages. I never knew my ancestors were so abused.
I find here that most people are believing the possibly fabricated stories of
ex-members, they wouldn't be ex members unless FLDS wasn't something they hated.
I'm not convinced beyond a doubt that all they say is absolutely true. I think
there is two sides to every story, and I don't believe that the state of texas
has done the right thing in doing what they did. It is reminiscent of a police
state. I'm sure there is some abuses, but I seriously doubt that everything
that everybody is saying is gospel.
Instead of justifying the lifestyle, the mainstream LDS members would be better
served to break up these compounds where abuse is systemic. They will tarnish
the image of the church in the way the Islamic fundamentalists have tarnished
mainstream Islam. It's really in your best interest to denounce these groups.
Also, when you compare the Texas Rangers to the Nazis it really destroys your
credibility. The Texas authorities had no choice but to follow up on the phone
call from the distressed girl. What good is a help-line that ignores their
callers? The reaction of removing the children was not based entirely on the
phone call, it was based on 4 years of research into the community and
interviews with informants and other sources.
A few points:1. Where I live a father that allegedly abuses a child
is hauled off to jail, and the mom and child are not forcibly sequestered in a
different location, they remain at home or in a professional facility to receive
medical or other offered help for their wounds, physical or otherwise.2. Mom gets to stay with child and nurture / comfort the child and receive
help and solace from those willing to help.3. Someone who usually
exists steps forward or is usually found That made the allegations against the
father, not a phantom that cannot be found, usually. Maybe they remain publicly
anonymous but authorities are in contact with the person, usually. That person
usually has not disappeared into the mist.4. The mom and child
usually are not hauled off to parts unknown to them. The child and mom usually
remain in comfortable surroundings or at home. 5. There are usually
far fewer offending dads than abused children and moms. Isn't it far more
efficient and possibly LEGAL "usually" to haul the alleged offending dad(s) off
to jail instead of traumatizing the mom and child further?6. Are we
the USA, or NOT?
Wow, this is what happens to children because of their fathers who are greedy
stupid men. The children are paying for the sins of their fathers. End of story!
I feel so sorry for the whole group. I think most of them are honest,
hardworking people. But the men who had a hand in forcing the youg girls to
maryy at such a young age, should be punished! They are SO wrong! To have
taken all of these children away from their homes is not right either. What good
does it do to break up those families? Surely there are better ways to deal with
What does this article tell us? That the mothers love their children. So what.
I really have no sympathy for any mother who turns her teenage daughters into
puppy-mill-style baby factories.
I feel very sad for the Children. I'm sure the Mothers are good to their young
children but what about making your teenage girls get married so young and
taking away their free agency????? The men are the ones who should have been
taken away. I do have to say that the poor young girls are married way to young
and do not have a freedom or Free agency to choose to go to college and marry a
man she falls in love with. In my eyes that is abusive...Not letting them choose
there Husband. When A female child/teenager is forced to get married and told
it is what God wants her to do. I think that is abusive and needs to stop. It's
one thing to choose it in your twenties but forced into in your teens is just
Wrong and against the law. Girls need to be teenagers not teenage Mothers...
I am a member of the LDS church and do not believe that polygamy should be
practiced. I initially thought it was right to have these children removed from
their homes, but have changed my mind somewhat about that. So polygamy is
unlawful - so is adultery and child abuse. When will our government start
rounding up adulterers and child/women beaters. Come on Texas, go after "the
really bad guys." They are everywhere. How do we judge these good mothers who
have lost their children? In my eyes, they are misguided. Pray the next move
is not to tell us how, when, where and whom to worship in our churches.
Polygamy is wrong on many levels. If abuse is happening, it should be stopped.
If underage marriage is forced, it should be stopped. However, in a society that
allows (and often celebrates) gay relationships, gay "couples" adopting
children, out-of-wedlock births and rampant divorce, for the government to
punish every member of this society is ludicrous!In America we can
have sexual relations with whomever we want, male or female, have children with
whomever we want, in and out of wedlock, and it's not punishable by law. But get
married to more than one woman and have children and it's worthy of a government
raid. As anti-polygamy as I am (it makes me sick), there is something seriously
wrong with the Texas government taking over 400 children from their homes. It's
hard to believe that they were ALL being abused.
PEOPLE, POLYGAMY IS A CRIME. Figure it out! It appears that the majority of
comments consider this dangerous cult to be a wonderful, delightiful lifestyle
just minding it's own business.GROW BRAINS ALREADY! Polygamy is incredibly
harmful to children, robs women of independent thought, costs the taxpayers
millions a year in welfare fraud and assistance and is a haven for pedophiles
and those wishing to engage in incestual behaviors. Absolutely criminal and
should be ERADICATED from the planet. Utahns are wacky people and generally
support the wrong idea on any topic (thanks for sweeping the tyrant GWB into
office) but this Texas YFZ FLDS nonsense has to go the way of the dinosaur. Wake
I'm simply amazed at how one news article has so drastically altered people's
stated opinions from what y'all were saying yesterday.
I agree with Pat.Leave the children with their mother's, remove the men
for the deeds.
In the early 60's the state of Arizona did this same thing. What did anyone
learn? It is against the law in the United States to practice having more than
one wife. So why now with all these fourty some years past is there the same
practice still being allowed among the same families among the same church? Why
haven't the men who are practicing something that is againt the laws of our
contry still living out in the open and not being accountable. You allow the
women of these men to be taken and the children. I can tell you as one who know
you will have problems for these children for the rest of their lives over the
way this has been handled. Just because they are children and everyone can
control a child but not it's parents.Yes, we all are in danger and it
doesn't have to be about anything different. Just the one who holds the power to
say you are out of line and it is going to get a lot worse in the years to come.
Practice and keep the laws of the land. This is America and we can change it.
Texas had four years to put together a solid case against these liars and
abusers. All they needed was probable cause under the fourth amendment to move
in. I hope the children never go back to their parents but that will be
decided when the the parents have their day in court. The children are now
allowed to laugh and cry, something that wasn't allowed in their "loving" homes.
Regardless of what you think of someone's religious views or practices, this
woman has a right to be with her children. Texas has committed a serious
mistake, shame on them.
I have to say, this is nothing more than the Texas government going after the
FLDS members... for some reason, they see or hear the word "ploygamy", and
instantly, they assume this is some sinister and abusive cult.This
whole tragedy is unfounded, outrageous, and deeply offensive to me. I am not
FLDS, but I sympathize... number one, the girls who supposedly made this call
has not been found. Two, no damning evidence has been found. Three, the primary
male suspect questioned, can prove he did no wrong. Third, no charges were filed
before the raid, so what was there to base such a powerful warrant on? The word
on ONE child, which cannot even be found? Is that the basis upon which the Texas
Rangers justify destroying the lives of so many, and ripping apart families?Also, what the heck was the Baptist Church doing, transporting these
people? If the law enforcement agents wanted to take these people, let them do
it themselves... use Sheriff's transports... don't have the Baptists come and
help... there was NO reason for that, other than to "stick it" to the FLDS, as
if to say, "we've saved you". Yeah, right.
WE THE stupid, common, ordinary PEOPLE.Uh...now what exactly is this
group's sin? Living communally and raising their children
communally. Im sure our friendly Government Services pimps know how to raise
kids better than us, the common man.The so called 'services' the
state provides would vanish if people realized the the value of SELF RELIANCE.
:) The state must create as many 'victims' as it can in order to
continue it's growth. Keep feeding the beast 'victim pimps' and eventually you
will have a government that knows better than you too. Good
government, Good job. Bad ordinary people, listen to your masters!
There has been no conclusive proof offered by authorities to indicate that the
alleged victim even exists. I believe that this raid was initiated by
authorities who had no legal or justifiable reason to seize and take these
children away from their mothers.The cops have nothing!! And they
know it. I hope they get the hell sued out of them to the tune of several
hundreds of million of dollars. The people of that compound just want to be left
alone and nosy busybodies probably the "outraged" wives of politicians who don't
have any other cause to pursue have latched onto this as their cause du jour.
I think Texas will be funding the FLDS church for some time. This travesty will
cost Texas citizens hundreds of millions in lawsuits. How in the world can such
unqualified people become judges in this land? All of these volunteer lawyers
are so kind to represent the children? Rather I think they realize the potential
for a huge settlement for this very un-american act. The judge should resign, or
better be impeached.
Seriously, I can't see how anyone can believe that this was the right thing to
do. Please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that this was the
justified correct course? Explain how taking children from their parents is not
exactly what Satan would do?
No proof there even is a 16 year old girl. I don't see anyone busting
their rump looking for her. It could all be a hoax, some disgruntled x-FLDS
woman pretending to be 16 and now she's doing it again in Arizona. The
way I see it, the local folks feared being out populated and thus out voted for
local office like Sheriff. So what's next, raid a sub-division because of
an anonymous tip to a private re-hab clinic of a meth-lab in one out of the
hundreds of homes in the town? This is so kool, the government just
conveniently gets a third party "he said she said they said" tip and they can
raid a whole town.
We clearly live in a police state where religious teachings are not allowed. No
prayer in school. Parents who believe in polygomy will not be allowed to raise
them. They will be raised in Foster Homes where religion is frowned on. Every
year they will be assigned to a new one. This action has been brought upon us
by Godless judges and liberals. People need to tell Texas to give back the
children!!! Their actions are evil.
There IS absolute power & abuse in polygamy. But only from the men. They have
total control of their families and have "sold" this "religeon" over the
generations to the women and children. If that`s all you know for generations,
it is and stays the way you live.The MEN should`ve been rounded up &
removed and questioning done with THEM off the property. The women & children
questioned ON the property while the children were left in familiar
surroundings! It is unforgivable for the state to abuse and traumatize the
good, obediant and sweet women and children of this community. The damage done
to these children is horrendous! Why is America putting up with this? These are
good people with the exception of the MEN, some who use every inch of "power"
their invented "religeon" gives them. Make the MEN accountable, not the
innocent.Remove the MEN, question THEM, have THEM identify and straighten
identies out or allow THEM to self-destroy the community instead of the state.
The place would likely close down if the men were prevented from returning
(because of non-cooperation).
"Let My People Go..." I believe Texas has made a big mistake. They have scared
the hell out of 400 children, their mothers and their fathers, on an assumption.
Where were the overweight, undereducated deputy sheriffs when the Priest were
abusing choir boys? We cannot allow this to continue, No church is safe in
Who will they see as unfit next? Whom will they come for next? In Bible thumper
land anyone who is different is vulnerable. Anyone may have their
constitutional rights denied.
If the mother in this article insist on how much,how can she explain and
justify their practice ofexpelling their sons from their families when
theyare 18 and considered a threat to the older men ofthe community?
These boys are still their mothersson even though they are older.
Shows we live in a police state, and the "Law Enforcerment" are really just
Nazi's.One call, they should have found that girl first, then
decided who needed to be taken. What about preliminary interviews of the
children first, before wholesale taking of everyone.
Proven guilty of What? I worry about making judgements concerning God fearing
people who largly obey the law and conduct themselves with dignity and
decency.Are there pedophiles and 'dirty old men' lurking among these
religious people? Most likely. The same could be said about almost any
religion or sect. Surely most Americans are aware of the problems other
churches have faced over the years in that regard.As a child growing
up, my Family lived near a compound of polygimists; they were polite and hard
working. During the 50's and early 60's they chose to mainstream their children
in public schools and it really was a benefit for them and the community at
large.My father was a principal in our community and welcomed their
children into mainstream lifestyle. The complication of scrutiny and hate drove
these folks underground and eventually into hiding. What damage has been done
because of our persecution of their beliefs?Let's punish the abusers
and leave the rest of them alone to worship their God as they see fit.
The media in England are having a field day with this story, especcially the
Daily Mail newspaper who are Anti-Mormon and love to print articles which
associate polygamy with the LDS Church, despite the fact that this story is
about the FLDS Church. As for the children being taken away into care, their
needs and safety must be met first. But let's not forget, before we all pass a
judgement, that all the people of the FLDS community are innocent until proven