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What Utahns earn: Analysis of wages shows education pays off — usually

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Mr. Hate Spending | 2:34 a.m. April 13, 2008

I am a Chemical Engineer with 5 yrs experience. I make almost 100K a year. I have no debts except a town home I own in Southern California. I rent it out for more then my mortgage payment. I still can't seem to afford to buy a nice 3 bed 2 bath home here in Utah. I have to rent the basement of a house in Draper where my wife and our new born son live. How do the rest of the professionals do it? Housing prices have to go down or wages have to come up. I think my problem is that I can't see myself spending more then $1200 a month on a mortgage for a 3 bed 2 bath house. I am not looking for a mansion just a decent home.

Ca | 4:05 a.m. April 13, 2008

Move to California. Problem solved.

Quit Whining Take Responsibility | 5:27 a.m. April 13, 2008

The average income nationally is approximately $42,000. Utah's average is just a bit higher. If you can't afford a house then something is out of whack. Either your debts are consuming too much of your income or you are spending more than you think in some area. Start by tracking your spending for a month (EVERY PENNY!). You will be surprise where your money is actually going. Then create a budget. People who do those two simple things usually report having about 10 to 15% more income by making small changes.

Oh and quit whining, that will help the rest of us.

Comments continue below

Bob G | 5:43 a.m. April 13, 2008

This article is trying to paint a rosy picture about Utah and its labor market. But in all this how does Utah compare to say California or Denver in what a worker earns? Utah is substantially lower in what it pays its workers, many barely making it to the poverty level income. Workers in Utah need ot organize at all levels of employment if they want any hope of being able to survive in a world that has inflation and dollar devaluation exceeding income. Utah has regressive wages and it has forced many workers to take on multiple jobs just to get by on minimum needs. Whether a worker has a degree or not, there are many jobs that require degree like knowledge and experience. Not everyone has the means to aquire a 60k debt a year for schools, only a privileged few fall in this catagory so the amount of education one can get is limited. With all the illegal aliens in Utah has also made it difficult for the real american citizens to get in financial aid programs for higher education. The illeagals are given discriminatiory preferences in the education system in Utah. Business profits while workers suffer.

Jason | 5:52 a.m. April 13, 2008

Intersting article, but I wonder about the accuracy of numbers. For example, the American Dental Association reports orthodontists make somewhere between $200-300K per year, and most orthodontists nation-wide will say that is low.
Makes me wonder how inaccurate other numbers might be.

B Williams | 6:02 a.m. April 13, 2008

$60,000 debt for medical school?! What a bargain that would be! The average nationally is actually well over $100K. I've got almost $250K of medical school debt and counting.. He's right though, it wouldn't be worth it for the money- it's only worth it if you love it.

Evan E | 6:12 a.m. April 13, 2008

to Mr. Hate Spending...I totally agree with you with regards to can't see myself spending more than $1200 per month on a modest home. I frankly don't see how people are doing it, paying on brand new homes here along the Wasatch Front with our low income levels !I work in health care, work in a lab as a phlebotomist and make around $30K per year. I know I need more education to earn more than what I earn now, that will come, but in the mean time, cost of living just gets worse!!!

Whatta guy! | 6:32 a.m. April 13, 2008

"Smith says he is glad he went through the 12 years of post-high school education needed to become an anesthesiologist but adds, "Nobody does this for the money. ... We do it because we have the opportunity to make a meaningful difference."

Yeah Right!

Humanitarians make a difference....Anesthesiologists gas people so surgeons can operate.

Mahershalalhashbaz | 6:37 a.m. April 13, 2008

Yes Jason is right. I don't buy these numbers. Orthodontists don't make that little. I bet times that number by 5 and you'd be closer. Same with anasethesiologists. These professionals are lying about their income. They are just trying to discourage kids that want to go into their profession for job security. And to B Williams, it was 60 Gs a year in the article.

Anonymous | 6:45 a.m. April 13, 2008

Many of these numbers do seem inaccurate. Anesthesiologists do make less than orthopedic surgeons and radiologists -- even here in Utah. And orthodontists only making $60K? The number is more like 5X that.

It appears that the methodology behind the numbers is highly flawed.

Buckeye Med | 6:49 a.m. April 13, 2008

Hey B Williams -- he said $60K PER YEAR, which is a little less than I've had to borrow each year for med school.

Sounds like Utah may not be the place to pay off the debt, however...

Impossible To Live Here | 7:39 a.m. April 13, 2008

With all income counted, we make a very good living ($100K+) but cannot afford anything more than a very modest Orem home -- & very few other debts. My poor children will never make it given the low Utah wages and sky-high housing. Sad.

liberal larry | 7:57 a.m. April 13, 2008

Mr Hate Spending, if you can't make it on almost 100k, your spending habits are way out of whack. You may be a mensa candidate when it comes to chemical engineering, but like may smart people you aren't well versed in money matters. Buy a book, or two, by my financial hero Dave Ramsey, and get your fiscal act together. His conservative politics are way off base, but he has a lot of good things to day about money.

anonymous | 7:58 a.m. April 13, 2008

my wife and I are both physicians and have a medical school debt close to 500K. Add that on top of our mortgage and our standard of living is still close to what it was in college.

Lie | 8:01 a.m. April 13, 2008

"Nobody does this for the money, we do it to make a meaningful difference."

Whatever! You all do it for the money. Quit being such a martyr.

If it didn't pay so well, you wouldn't do it.

Is lying part of the Hippocratic oath?

liberal larry | 8:06 a.m. April 13, 2008

As for you doctors, what are you guys doing, going through college on the George Bush, spend now, pay later plan? The median debt for new docs in 2005 was about 120k, which given a six figure starting income, should get payed off in 3 or 4 years max.

Thrifty | 8:27 a.m. April 13, 2008

I don't know how most Utahns make it, but I have a growing suspicion: our multiple cars, boats, 4-wheelers, cabins, nicely furnished large homes, fine apparel, and several-time-a-week restaurant dinners are financed by debt. I am continually amazed to learn that people who I thought must be doing really well were just financial alchemists.

Remember it is AVERAGE | 8:59 a.m. April 13, 2008

This data may be a little skewed because it all depends on who they surveyed. Within a chosen profession wages can have quite a spread. For example, Podiatrists generally make way more than the 50-something thousand stated in the article, but there are some that only make that much or less because they don't do surgery, only routine care. That is the doctor's choice and so if you get a few of them surveyed it will bring down your statistical average significantly. Also, my guess is that general surgeons make more than anesthesiologists, but some make less, some make more so it again depends on who you surveyed. Also how random was the sample? my guess is it was a pretty biased sample to start with. Statistics can be molded to say whatever you want them to say with out correct statistical procedures. Don't take too much weight into what they say.

Roland Kayser | 8:56 a.m. April 13, 2008

Almost a third of all college graduates end up doing jobs that don't require a college degree. Getting an education is great, but if the jobs don't exist, it won't pay off financially.

Misplaced in Minnesota | 9:00 a.m. April 13, 2008

I was very interested to read the article, and I was hoping to find the entire list of income for all jobs. I am currently in an orthopedic residency, and was specifically interested in what the report would say about my earning potential in Utah. I have been researching on aaos.org and salary.com, and both sites report that orthopedic surgeons in Utah have a mean income near $475,000. I wonder where the discrepancy occurs?

Also, the statement about some medical students accruing only $60,000 in debt during the education seems to be a gross underestimate. That may have been the case with students finishing 10 years ago. Of the 50 residents in my program, no one has less than $100,000 in school debt from medical school alone, and several are nearly $300,000 in debt due to medical school. The big determining factor is whether the medical school was state funded or private. With the discrepancy between the earning potential and the debt rate of medical students makes me question the validity of the numbers reported.

Jim | 9:00 a.m. April 13, 2008

If you can't make in on 100k then your spending habits are crazy! You need to get into a home soon. Prices in utah won't be coming down much if at all due to the large families and kids tend to stay here. The longer you wait the further behind you'll be.

Happy | 9:14 a.m. April 13, 2008

Although it is necessary to cover such basic expenses as food, housing, and clothes, there are many people who do not earn a six-figure incomes and are happy. Budgeting and avoiding pie-in-the-sky as well as keeping-up-with-Joneses spending enable those with a lesser income to live without debt.

One of the great things about getting an education is it opens up windows of opportunity for obtaining employment a person enjoys. If a person is working in a field they enjoy and living within their means, they should be able to keep out of financial trouble. It might mean their spouse has to work, but in today's economy the majority of spouses do. An education, which hopefully is a life-long pursuit, also makes life more interesting.

What a person is paid basically comes down to supply and demand. I am not advocating that employers should not pay a fair salary or wage to their employees, as doing so will only work to the employer's detriment, but those wanting to get paid more for what they do can move to places where their skills and abilities are in greater demand.

Just a few thoughts on the subject. I welcome other points of view.

Michael | 9:24 a.m. April 13, 2008

Mr. Hate Spending-
I understand what you mean, but if you are looking for a house in draper that is a 4 bdr, 2.5 bath house , I think I have the most reasonably priced house in one of the nicest neighborhoods in draper. Let me know if you want any info.

Chad | 9:27 a.m. April 13, 2008

I have to agree with those who wonder how someone canï¿½t make it on $100k per year. What this really says is "I don't want to have to choose between the lexus, SUV, boat, new car every year, to eat out for $300 a whack 4 days per weekï¿½AND a 7,000 square foot house....I WANT IT ALL...or I will complain and whine about it."

My family made just-under $100k this yearï¿½we have very little credit card debt, but we do have 4 kids. My wife drives a 6-year-old-mini-vanï¿½I drive a 2007 Priusï¿½for the gas milleage and great warrantyï¿½and I have a 45 minute one-way commute. We own a time shareï¿½have great vacationsï¿½go visit relatives out-of-stateï¿½have the requisite 3 tvs, Wii, DVD player, computer, internet, satellite, etc. We live in a 4500 sq foot home in a nice, clean, safe neighborhood with kids the age of my kids....those above say a "modest" home...that is defined ENTIRELY on where you live. If you want to live on the east benchï¿½well good luck.

Life is about choices. Enjoy what you haveï¿½donï¿½t waste your life complaining about what you donï¿½t have. If you donï¿½t like itï¿½make smarter choices...but stop whining...we don't wanna hear it.

To Evan E: | 9:42 a.m. April 13, 2008

One of the reasons that people are able to afford their exorbitant homes is that they don't want to pay anything for their children's education. We are over $1,000 per pupil behind Idaho, another state with a high Mormon population and birth rate. This puts us not only last in the nation, but very last in the nation. Puerto Rico better watch out, because we've got their number.
The other thing is that people are way over their heads in credit card debt. I work as a financial adviser and the things people do just blow me away. Eventually, things catch up with people, and many are losing their homes right now, especially the sub-prime borrowers and those with heavy credit card debt.

Dear Mr. Hate Spending | 9:41 a.m. April 13, 2008

If you put a $200,000 down payment on a house, you will be able to spend less than $1200/month on your mortgage.

Anonymous | 10:05 a.m. April 13, 2008

Hey "Liberal" Larry-

On the George Bush student loan rates have skyrocketed from 4.7 to 6.8. Medical tuition here in the great red state of Utah has gone up by $2,000 dollars every year I've been here, undergraduate education as seen similar, but less extreme jumps in price. Check out the College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007 signed into law by Mr. Bush, which no longer allows resident physicians to defer repayment of astronomical student loans while getting paid beans through residency. Also the US Dept. of Health and Human services, headed by local darling Mike Leavitt, has proposed striping funding to public hospitals, in Utah that means the U. The cost of educating new physicians (of which this country is in dire need thanks to an aging population) will indirectly fall on already straped patients.

All this in an attempt to curtail government spending- how bout we take care of Americans first, and then Iraq?

Do your homework GOP Larry.

Anonymous | 9:59 a.m. April 13, 2008

I seriously can't believe someone can't make it on 100K in Utah. Utah may have lower wages than California, but in Utah you won't spend 300K for a 2 bedroom 1500 sq ft. home... unless you're a sucker.

Dear Whatta Guy! | 10:31 a.m. April 13, 2008

Are you aware that patients under anesthesia are not just "gassed" and asleep, but are unconcious and completely dependent on the anesthesiologist for life support. Control of heart rate, breathing, blood pressure, fluid balance, temperature, and most other physiologic functions are managed by the anesthesiologist. The easy part of the job is putting patients to sleep. Normal physiologic functioning has to be maintained in the face of stresses caused by blood loss, organ dysfunction, and many other changes brought about by the surgical procedure. Modern surgery is a complex dance with the surgeon performing a procedure while trying to minimize bleeding and other injury to the patient while the anesthesiologist provides total artificial life support and compensates for the inevitable stresses placed on the patient's systems. Both jobs are intricate, complicated, and stressful- a mistake can end someone's life. Oh, and by the way- I do care deeply about each one of my patients and I do thrill when I can make a difference in someone's life.

How much do Orthodontists make? | 10:32 a.m. April 13, 2008

Where does the DNews get their numbers? An orthodontist making only $63,070 per year? The only way an orthodontist would make this little would be if he/she were taking only a couple of patients one day per week. Orthodontist are among the highest paid professionals.

Anonymous | 10:45 a.m. April 13, 2008

It seems that everyone who is not a doctor correctly read the article and understood that the debt incurred by medical students was up to $60k PER YEAR (not overall).

I'm worried that someone in Minnesota will have the wrong leg operated on because her surgeon misread the instructions.

Trmajnke | 10:47 a.m. April 13, 2008

First off to Liberal Larry, you for get that most doctors are in private practice so that means that they have to provide for employees IE: nurses, clerks, office managers. also they have just as much overhead as any other business by having office space, utilities, health insurance for employees and not to mention the enormous cost of malpractice insurance in this lawsuit happy world, and if they want to deliver babies forget it the insurance is way to high that is why most Family docs do not do this anymore. all of this really cuts into what you can make and insurance/medicare reimbursments are almost nothing. I work in a hospital as a new department manager and just found out that medicare only reimburses me about 25% of the charge for a simple procedure that is not that expensive in the first place. I also want to comment to the article as to what the educational requirements are for some jobs. In my own profession of Respiratory Therapy it is a minimum of an associates degree to take the board exams for a credential that you need for states that require licensure, which most do.

Observer | 11:31 a.m. April 13, 2008

Everyone in the US should become a lawyer, doctor, dentist....something along those lines. Then we wouldn't have any poverty. Problem solved.

To: Observer | 12:07 p.m. April 13, 2008

You gotta be a Doctor or a Lawyer to be MIDDLE CLASS nowadays! Stay the course!

Re Observer | 12:18 p.m. April 13, 2008

If everyone became a doctor, then the pay for doctors would drop dramatically. It is supply and demand.

The main reason doctors make so much money is that there are not enough people willing to go through the pain of college, medical school, and residency. If everyone and their brother wanted to do that, then we would have more doctors than are needed and their salaries would drop.

A big problem is that everyone assumes that all doctors are rich. While it is true that good doctors who work incredibly hard will earn enough to eventually pay off all their student loans and have a good lifestyle, it is a farce to assume that every doctor is instantly rich the minute he/she hangs up their shingle (i.e. starts a practice).

Our current tax code assumes this and takes half of everything the doctor makes even though it will take him/her ten years or more to catch up with all their friends who got regular jobs out of college instead of going on to medical school.

Future Lawyer | 12:38 p.m. April 13, 2008

With $180K of student loan debt, I could never afford to go back to Utah to work as a lawyer, without significant financial sacrifices. Top national firms (including in low cost of living places such as Houston) pay nearly twice as much as Salt Lake City law firms pay. There are plenty of lawyers in Utah who are saddled with so much debt that it's a bit misleading to only focus on the average earnings.

Blake | 1:32 p.m. April 13, 2008

***I went to school for about 15 years gaining 2 college degrees and paid tens of thousands of dollars not to mention the neglect of my wife and kids, I am the only college graduate in my entire family's history = I make the LEAST amount of money out of all my brothers and sisters which is many, pretty disturbing eh?*** In my own experience it would have been better just to gain true work experience in one specific field and become an expert at it, some companies will provide the training***

professional | 1:28 p.m. April 13, 2008

What ever Doctors or dentists make in Utah, they make, on average, significantly less than what they'd make in another state. The good thing is that patients pay far less in Utah for health care compared to what they'd pay in another state. The medical field isn't a pure supply and demand realm but it is influenced somewhat by that factor. I agree with Future Lawyer. Because of saturation of professionals, the market is tighter in Utah. But as long as all the little Jacobs or Josephs get all the education they can and then absolutley move back to Utah to practice their profession, that will be the market for sometime to come in the beehive state.

Kevin In Texas | 1:38 p.m. April 13, 2008

I just got a master's degree and my expected income is 37K per year as a state employee in Utah. My career requires a master's degree to get hired. There is something wrong when a person with a master's degree earns below the national average! I hope the state legislature takes notes because with a master's of science degree I can change careers and make twice as much.

100k? Whatever. | 1:45 p.m. April 13, 2008

There's no way you're making 100k with little or no debt and can't afford a house. I make 80k. That boils down to $5,000.00/month take home pay. I have a $270k house and a massive (in my opinion) house payment of $1700/month. I easily afford that despite 45k in school debt mostly financed through credit cards and a monthly car payment.

If you're really making 100k and can't afford a house payment anywhere in Utah, you should be talking to a financial counselor.

Steve | 2:35 p.m. April 13, 2008

One of the most fun things I do every year is read the average salaries article. I have no idea where they get their numbers, but they are not even close. I just discovered the comment section, it has been almost as fun reading how worked up some people can get over misinformation. Thank you.

John | 2:36 p.m. April 13, 2008

I pay $1,830/month to rent a 2 bedroom apartment in southern California. Milk out here is $6/gallon, car insurance on two small Hondas (accord & civic) is $2,000/year. I won't even begin on health insurance. Stop complaining.

Jason | 3:09 p.m. April 13, 2008

After reading the article, I concluded that it's focus is if you made the effort to get a college education your pay would increase. Whatever the wages listed are, whether right or wrong, doesn't matter. The fact is if you get an education, monetarily you will be better off. As is stated there are exceptions, but generally speaking this is true.

The basic tenet of economics is supplying your unlimited wants and needs with limited resources. This is a challenge no doubt. Most of us could do without as big a home as we want or the bling bling rims on our monster trucks (most of which have never seen dirt) that are on every street in Utah. I see a lot of wasteful spending and I find myself, at times, not paying attention to my spending like I should. We can all point our fingers at each other and be pretty accurate.

I live in Utah, not because of the economics, but because it is where I want to live. I have a modest income and a great job that I love doing. Most importantly my family is close and I find my greatest joy when I'm with them.

Orthodontic Resident | 3:45 p.m. April 13, 2008

The numbers for orthodontists are inexplicable. The Journal of Clinical Orthodontics just reported in 2007 the median salary for orthodontists as $360,000. First year out of school it's not difficult to find a job that will pay you between $1000-$1200 per day. Who did the research for this study/article?

Anon. | 4:18 p.m. April 13, 2008

I will take my $400k+ a year and be glad that I am not living in Utah.

to:Orthodontic Resident | 4:35 p.m. April 13, 2008

Quit reading the Journal. I've been in the business for 30 years. Those days are long gone unless...

You are not going back to Utah to practice.
You are not going to Nevada to practice.
1200 or more a day maybe in a clinic situation where the fees are 1/2 the standard, the treatment is 1/2 the standard, etc. Private practice for you fellows is becoming extinct, unless you plan on buying a practice. That $250,000 you now carry before you ever see a patient, will become over 1 Million before you practice for one year. Have you noticed it costs a million to simply equip an office and hang up a shingle? Good luck. Oh, and don't forget to tell your patients that the retainer you paid 30 dollars for, you are charging 175.00 for. Or that wonderful vacume formed retainer cost you less than 2 dollars and will last less than 6 months and you still get 175.00.

Stewart | 4:58 p.m. April 13, 2008

They forgot to put the bottom on this. What is the pay for an uneducated illegal alien working for the cheap labor employers?

Gerald | 5:34 p.m. April 13, 2008

My modest house in California is well worth the price to avoid the joys of Utah life such as Super Dell ("I'll be a totally awesome governor") or Jon Jr. ("I'm a great governor because my daddy's rich). Plus, I really like my 13 minute commute.

3arwax | 6:12 p.m. April 13, 2008

Funny comment,
There is something wrong when a person with a master's degree earns below the national average!

Hate to break it but about half of the people earn below average.

Orthodontic Resident | 6:12 p.m. April 13, 2008

You mean to tell me you really think the average orthodontist salary in Utah is $63,070? If so, it doesn't matter if you've been in the business for 130 years or 230 years, you're off your rocker.

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