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Majority of Utahns say removal of FLDS children was justified
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One thing's for sure | 7:25 a.m. April 10, 2008
...not one of these children will be farmed out to homes in Utah by the
authorities in Texas.
arc | 7:30 a.m. April 10, 2008
The title is wrong. Only 1/3 thought this was justified. 1/3 thought it might
be, we don't have enough info. To me, there wasn't enough evidence to
do what they are doing. Any judge is going to slap Texas and the feds big
time.
Comments continue below
ediddy | 8:01 a.m. April 10, 2008
DMN,
I have been reading your website for days and fail to see where you get the idea that the "majority" of Utahns approve of the handling of the situation in Eldorado. There are some legitimate questions of constitutional abuse here, and while it may be unpopular to even suggest that for fear of being seen as on the side of child abuse, the questions remain. Even murderers and terrorists are afforded constitutional protection. It should be no less here.
I have been reading your website for days and fail to see where you get the idea that the "majority" of Utahns approve of the handling of the situation in Eldorado. There are some legitimate questions of constitutional abuse here, and while it may be unpopular to even suggest that for fear of being seen as on the side of child abuse, the questions remain. Even murderers and terrorists are afforded constitutional protection. It should be no less here.
Denise | 8:12 a.m. April 10, 2008
I disagree. If abuse is systematic, accepted, even EXPECTED, then it is
warranted for all the children to be removed. The mothers are not considered the
threat, or they would not be allowed with the children. I am impressed Texas is
willing to take on such a huge case.
Remember who the real abusers are.
I am noticing these pictures.... They are not staged, the press is not allowed such access. The children seem pretty happy to me. It must be incredibly traumatic, but at least they have each other.
Remember who the real abusers are.
I am noticing these pictures.... They are not staged, the press is not allowed such access. The children seem pretty happy to me. It must be incredibly traumatic, but at least they have each other.
do some research | 8:14 a.m. April 10, 2008
"... because ONE of them may have been abused?"
Wake up Mahonri. 12-year-olds pregnant? I wonder what your definition of abuse is.
Abuse of all types is an integral part of FLDS family dynamics control/parenting tactics/religious practice. Abuse in the FLDS is as abundant as the oxygen you breathe.
Its so easy to judge and point fingers as an observer.
The word 'ONE' that you use only accurately describes the number of people it takes to expose injustice perpetrated on children. Whichever girl it was that called, Good for you! Don't ever give away your self-respect.
Wake up Mahonri. 12-year-olds pregnant? I wonder what your definition of abuse is.
Abuse of all types is an integral part of FLDS family dynamics control/parenting tactics/religious practice. Abuse in the FLDS is as abundant as the oxygen you breathe.
Its so easy to judge and point fingers as an observer.
The word 'ONE' that you use only accurately describes the number of people it takes to expose injustice perpetrated on children. Whichever girl it was that called, Good for you! Don't ever give away your self-respect.
It depends | 8:43 a.m. April 10, 2008
From what I'm seeing and hearing, whether or not a judge "slaps
Texas" will depend on what the evidence shows. I'd like to hear more
from the women and children in the compound and less from the men and
judgementatl onlookers.
Hmm | 9:30 a.m. April 10, 2008
If you visit the High Schools and even Middle Schools where I live, you will
find many pregnant teens, and those who already have a child and are pregnant
again. Not mention the untold numbers who have had multiple abortions.
Does that mean a raid on my neighborhood is imminent? Will the secret police raid my community and steal the children and then detain all the males for as long as they like with no habeas corpus?
Does that mean a raid on my neighborhood is imminent? Will the secret police raid my community and steal the children and then detain all the males for as long as they like with no habeas corpus?
To: do some research | 9:29 a.m. April 10, 2008
Just curious? Did you live in the Eldorado compound? If not, then how do you
know for certain that wide spread abuse exists? It is amazing to me how many
people's judgment gets clouded when it involves children and they
don't have all the facts. While abuse in any form is reprehensible, so is
ignoring constitutional rights. Pretty soon, we'll be saying Comrade. The
difference between Texas and Utah is that the "girl" in question had
only one address along with 400-500 other people. This allowed Texas to
"raid" the compound. In Utah and Arizona, polygamists do not live in
"one house" or one compound and therefore it is much more difficult to
prosecute!
A double edge sword... | 9:33 a.m. April 10, 2008
Law Enforcement cannot be a bystander if they indeed received a phone call about
the abuse. We are never happy as a people. We scream at them (Law Enforcement)
when they do something and when they did not do anything, either with or
without evidence. What a world...
Dirk | 9:39 a.m. April 10, 2008
arc 7:30 am said, "...we don't have enough info. To me, there
wasn't enough evidence..."
How could you possibly come to the conclusion that "there wasn't enough evidence" when we clearly "don't have enough info"?
How could you possibly come to the conclusion that "there wasn't enough evidence" when we clearly "don't have enough info"?
chemist | 9:39 a.m. April 10, 2008
I was pleaased to read that the FBI is also involved. Every aspect of the FLDS
needs to be scrutinized by authorities. Their funds and tax exempt staus need to
be reviewed as well as the alleged welfare fraud, lack of child support from the
fathers, failure to immunize the children as required by most states, possible
transporting of underage girls for sexual purposes in violation of the Mann act,
possible child pornograhy, etc. In short I would like to see them in the
position the mainstrean LDS church was in in the late 1800s. Renounce polygamy
of the church would be destroyed by the government. Not agains Mormons byt abhor
polygamy as practiced by FLDS, Kingstons, etc.
Unconstitutional | 10:35 a.m. April 10, 2008
This was a sick example of what overgrown government can do. This is also a
slippery slope that may come back to haunt us. Since when in the history of this
world has government taken away freedoms and then given them back later without
a revolution.
What the FLDS are doing is not justifiable, but going in without ample evidence and ruining the lives of over 400 children is not the way to handle the situation.
What the FLDS are doing is not justifiable, but going in without ample evidence and ruining the lives of over 400 children is not the way to handle the situation.
Anonymous | 11:06 a.m. April 10, 2008
Excuse me? A child calling in saying that she has been physically assaulted and
raped by an older man is not a good enough reason for you. Then when they do go
in and they find quite a few pregnant teens. Excuse me this is child rape,
molestation, and abuse. IN Texas we don't tolerate that. Its all of us,
Baptists, Methodists, Prebsytarians, and many other religions. You won't
hear stories like this from too many other churches. This sect was raided
because they were committing crimes against children. That is anyone under the
age of 18. And those girls who are pregnant in local high schools.. they are
pregnant by fellow male teenagers. Not 50 year old men. This is not religions
persecution.
PapaCorn | 11:53 a.m. April 10, 2008
I think the police should start raiding every home where there is a POSSIBILITY
of teen sex, physical abuse or child endangerment. Start raiding inner city
homes. Arrest the teenage mothers who are sleeping around along with their older
boyfriends. We need to start rounding them up and placing their kids in foster
homes. But we shouldn't stop at just one home. The police need to invade
EVERY home in the neighborhood and arrest the parents and place the children in
foster homes.
MikeD | 12:03 p.m. April 10, 2008
Rights are not determined by polls and they didn't come from the people
or granted by the government. It doesn't matter if 100% of Utahns thought
it was ok. Since when does the majority have a right to abuse the rights of the
minority?
So many posting are using the logic that the end justifies the means. Which of us want to be next? Which of us could withstand the complete scrutiny of government agencies determined to find an offense?
So many posting are using the logic that the end justifies the means. Which of us want to be next? Which of us could withstand the complete scrutiny of government agencies determined to find an offense?
William | 12:04 p.m. April 10, 2008
If anyone disagrees that these children should have not been removed from this
awful environment, then you too have a serious moral problem. This is very
insane that this has gone on for over a century and no one has stepped in to
help these children. It all Says a lot about the twisted society of Utah.
Ed | 12:12 p.m. April 10, 2008
Obviously, no one has the full story yet. Is the possibility that one child
has been injured enough to take action? Yes. Is this a conspiracy? Not likely.
The people who live in that part of Texas (my wife is from there)are generally polite, hospitable, wholesome and mannerly, but will not tolerate those who might abuse children, or those who might hesitate to investigate a possible abuse.
We all need to wait and see what the full story is before making any conclusions.
The people who live in that part of Texas (my wife is from there)are generally polite, hospitable, wholesome and mannerly, but will not tolerate those who might abuse children, or those who might hesitate to investigate a possible abuse.
We all need to wait and see what the full story is before making any conclusions.
Ed, as should | 12:52 p.m. April 10, 2008
the government wait until it has the proper authority before it took control of
over 400 children. Now the government has the job to prove they are guilty in
order to justify their unconstitutional behaviors.
The constitution was established and this great country worked so well for so long, until we started becoming ignorant and allowing the Federal government to grow far beyond what the founding fathers intended this country to be.
The path to socialism and communism is paved with good intentions. Either the constitution is right or, as George W put it, "it's just a G** Da** piece of paper"
The constitution was established and this great country worked so well for so long, until we started becoming ignorant and allowing the Federal government to grow far beyond what the founding fathers intended this country to be.
The path to socialism and communism is paved with good intentions. Either the constitution is right or, as George W put it, "it's just a G** Da** piece of paper"
Danny Haszard | 1:35 p.m. April 10, 2008
The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies
protected men who sexually abused children for many years.
Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
Ranger | 2:10 p.m. April 10, 2008
At least they're all being held by the Texas justice system, where we know
they'll get the speedy justice they deserve!
This is WEIRD! | 2:51 p.m. April 10, 2008
This is weird. All it takes is ONE person (who doesn't know what their
talking about) to say, "12 year olds are pregnant"! and now there
numerous people on all these threads quoting it as though it were gospel the
rest of the day.
I haven't seen even an accusation of a pregnant 12 year old, yet it's being thrown around here as if it is a proven fact.
I think they have enough to worry about without us all running around making up MORE rumors about the attrocities we personally know are going on there (well not personally, but we heard it from someone).
I haven't seen even an accusation of a pregnant 12 year old, yet it's being thrown around here as if it is a proven fact.
I think they have enough to worry about without us all running around making up MORE rumors about the attrocities we personally know are going on there (well not personally, but we heard it from someone).
Ed | 3:14 p.m. April 10, 2008
In response to "as should", most people aren't going to wait
for a constitutional analysis and a media referendum on correctness to respond
to possible child abuse.
It's possible that what has been done, has been done incorrectly. People screw up. And this doesn't appear to be a Federal Government issue.
But what has been done seems to have been done for the right reasons.
What would you have done?
It's possible that what has been done, has been done incorrectly. People screw up. And this doesn't appear to be a Federal Government issue.
But what has been done seems to have been done for the right reasons.
What would you have done?
PapaCorn | 3:19 p.m. April 10, 2008
William, you're so in tune. Apparently you know everything there is to know
about polygamy and fundamental Latter Day Saints. Yes, taking 415 children from
their homes and parents and placing them in a society that they know little
about won't have any sort of harsh impact on them.
Insane? Living the life of a polygamist doesn't sound fun to me. But I think it is insane that the government is able to take children from a secluded, religious community without having any sort of HARD EVIDENCE. This move was made after an alleged phone call...from a female they haven't been able to locate.
Then today, we have local law enforcement HINTING that a bed was found inside the temple with DISTURBED LINENS...oh, and that a woman's hair strand was found there.
Personally I am more disturbed by Texas law enforcement raiding this community without a piece of evidence.
The twisted society of Utah? Care to expound upon that?
Insane? Living the life of a polygamist doesn't sound fun to me. But I think it is insane that the government is able to take children from a secluded, religious community without having any sort of HARD EVIDENCE. This move was made after an alleged phone call...from a female they haven't been able to locate.
Then today, we have local law enforcement HINTING that a bed was found inside the temple with DISTURBED LINENS...oh, and that a woman's hair strand was found there.
Personally I am more disturbed by Texas law enforcement raiding this community without a piece of evidence.
The twisted society of Utah? Care to expound upon that?
m | 3:36 p.m. April 10, 2008
First of all I think all the "men" posting on this situation should
just shut it. You don't have a clue, many of you just don't get it.
The papers have reported (we typically take that as a relatively reliable
source)that pregnant teenagers and teenager mothers have been removed from the
compound. They haven't reported how many. The papers have also reported
that in that culture the girls often married when they reached puberty, so there
may not be any pregnant 12 year olds but their are probably some 12 year olds
who are "spiritually married". It can't be said enough - this
situation is not about religion - it is about sexual abuse, at the very least,
and forced marriages.
What would Satan do? | 3:53 p.m. April 10, 2008
To this religious state I ask, What would Satan do? Answer: He seeks to destroy
families. High Five Satan!
Lane Meyer | 4:24 p.m. April 10, 2008
What does the suposed majority opinion have to do with the illigal actions of
authorities in Texas? What are you trying to communicate here?? Please address
issues and facts that have actual merit.
I care | 4:32 p.m. April 10, 2008
So sad. So sad. Poor kids!
To Denise: | 5:28 p.m. April 10, 2008
You are WRONG. No other way around it, you are just wrong. Just because one
expects there to be abuse doesn't justify anything.
I could say that I think you abuse your kids and take them away? It doesn't work that way.
You need enough evidence to warrant invading someones home, property, privacy etc.
I support them going in ONLY because a girl called from a cell phone FROM WITHIN the structure stating the abuse etc. Any random call wouldn't suffice a warrant. Proof that it a person from that location claiming abuse IS enough for a warrant; Not just some whim of thinking someone is guilty. Your ideal ruins freedom with no respect of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
I am LDS and many of my LDS friends hate the need for search warrants. Even when Joseph Smith had no freedom from people or the law many STILL fight against true warrants.
Protection of individual liberty and freedom matters most. Just barging in because one thinks there is abuse is anti-agency. We protect our freedom to live as we desire by making sure children ARE at harm first. This was warranted, your idea wouldn't have been.
I could say that I think you abuse your kids and take them away? It doesn't work that way.
You need enough evidence to warrant invading someones home, property, privacy etc.
I support them going in ONLY because a girl called from a cell phone FROM WITHIN the structure stating the abuse etc. Any random call wouldn't suffice a warrant. Proof that it a person from that location claiming abuse IS enough for a warrant; Not just some whim of thinking someone is guilty. Your ideal ruins freedom with no respect of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
I am LDS and many of my LDS friends hate the need for search warrants. Even when Joseph Smith had no freedom from people or the law many STILL fight against true warrants.
Protection of individual liberty and freedom matters most. Just barging in because one thinks there is abuse is anti-agency. We protect our freedom to live as we desire by making sure children ARE at harm first. This was warranted, your idea wouldn't have been.
Contrarian | 8:55 p.m. April 10, 2008
The girl who made the phone calls cannot be found. But if what she said was
true and it is clear that the authorities believed her story, then why
didn't they find out who her parents are? She said they do not live at
YFZ, but apparently dropped her off there two years ago. Isn't abandoning
a fourteen year-old daughter to be sexually exploited considered child abuse?
She certainly would have a complaint against them - who are they? Where are
they?
Too Much! | 12:09 a.m. April 11, 2008
Dozens of underage girls pregnant, some with their 2nd children already,this
isn't enough evidence?? This is no comparison to High School pregnancies.
Unfortunately this has been going on for decades and longer - this is beyond
comprehension and I feel for these "brainwashed" girls and young boys.
The sadness is what will become of them now.
Mother | 1:48 p.m. April 12, 2008
It is unbelievable to me that anyone would be screaming about rights being
violated by listening to just one girl and getting a warrant to search for her.
If I were being held captive,raped and beaten I would hope that the authorities
would do whatever it took to find me. These pregnant CHILDREN do not have the
freedom to go to high school. Those rights have been stripped from them. These
are CHILDREN, people. These CHILDREN that are held captive behind locked gates
with watchtowers and pedophiles that guard them. Any time you have an
organization that isolates and locks down...nothing good could be happening. As
to what would Satan do? He would love pedophilia, abuse,and beatings. The
question should be what would Jesus do. He would protect and cherish these
CHILDREN for being the precious beings that they are. I hope that LDS families
all over are reaching out to offer support to these CHILDREN.
Christine | 12:55 p.m. April 17, 2008
All the polls show people think CPS is in the right, about 69 to 31%. I'm
convinced these comments supporting the child rapist are from the cult members
or others in similar cults. Because, with all the pregnant kids removed, denying
the child abuse is insane.
Mrs. Smith | 6:17 p.m. April 26, 2008
There's no way the majority of Utahns or even Americans agree with this -
anyone who has children or loves children, knows that this is the most obscene,
perverted, cruel act, committed by bullies and cowards.
It's time to organize against this evilness, try to help the FLDS, and abolish the CPS. They have done far, far, far more evil than good.
It's time to organize against this evilness, try to help the FLDS, and abolish the CPS. They have done far, far, far more evil than good.
Mrs. Smith | 6:21 p.m. April 26, 2008
There's a video on Youtube now showing the Happy Children of FLDS. It was
taken before the Nazi stormed in. Those children will never be happy again.
Pain and suffering is all they will know for a long, long time.
Americans, please speak out against this, to any one and everyone. This is an unspeakably cruel act - for the sake of the FLDS victims, and for the sake of your children, please speak out against this horrific crime against humanity.
Americans, please speak out against this, to any one and everyone. This is an unspeakably cruel act - for the sake of the FLDS victims, and for the sake of your children, please speak out against this horrific crime against humanity.
Mrs. Smith | 11:35 a.m. April 27, 2008
Please go to the Captive FLDS children website and donate money to help them get
their children back.
Please do more than post messages; please act. These people, and the rights of all Americans, have been viciously violated.
Please do more than post messages; please act. These people, and the rights of all Americans, have been viciously violated.
Mrs. Brown | 10:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
Minors forced into marriage with men old enough to be their father or
grandfather in NOT ethical NOR legal. The authorities had every legal and moral
right to remove these children and young teens from this fenced in community.
Mary | 6:53 p.m. May 13, 2008
The wife that just gave birth, she is 22 years old, she has a 2 year old and a
3.5 year old. Her husband is 24. She had a birth certificate, a driver's
license, many documents to prove she was 22, they are trying to keep her baby.
Her husband has gotten a court order to stay this till a hearing. CPS officials
have ignored the paperwork. If this woman and her children are not freed, and
any like families, we are in trouble, not just them, but all of us. Where is
due process, where is proof? Her children are not in danger of being forced
into a marriage. This is like Nazi Germany.
Mary | 6:59 p.m. May 13, 2008
Each of these cases should have due process, they should be tried singly, not
enmasse. What was the purpose of taking babies and small children from their
parents. Statistics in almost every state show that more children are abused in
foster care and in institutions, then in the home. From the frying pan into the
fire. 460 children. If you think CPS has checked into these homes to make sure
that all the people who will be taking care of these children are alright, I
have a lake in the middle of the desert to sell you. The general public does
not have a clue. I worked in that system for 15 years. It does not work.
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OR, how about in Sandy with the Polygs at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. Take all the kids from this neighborhood.
This is a really, REALLY stupid and illegal action in Texas.