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Global awareness of LDS Church growing
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Dora | 7:34 a.m. April 8, 2008
It is interesting to hear outsiders positive comments and frustrating to hear
negative or false statements. I am wondering if there is any value in
publishing these false and negative responses. Would these kind of comments be
better handled by a select group? I assume your readers are primarily LDS
members and positive comments, I believe, help build enthusiasm.
Erik VA | 9:33 a.m. April 8, 2008
A lot of people who are not members of the LDS faith do not realize that more
than half of the LDS membership resides outside the US. Not to mention that
Elder Uchdorf, a citizen of Germany, currently serves as one of the Twelve
Apostles. The LDS Church is growing not only within the US but internationally
as well. The social changes (corruption, genocide etc.) that need to occur in a
lot of countries will happen as the hearts of the people become unified. The LDS
is assisting in making this happen through teaching of upright principles and
through humanitarian aid efforts. Although there are those who purposely distort
what the LDS Church is and does, the truth will eventually reach everyone. Some
of the things that have increased awareness in the past such as the 2002 Salt
Lake Olympics and Mitt Romney's presidential campaigning (for example) are
just scratching the surface.
Popularity? | 10:06 a.m. April 8, 2008
In view of the fact that the LDS church is held in such low regard by the people
of our country I am amazed that we are crawling in bed with the muslims. Do the
LDS leaders think that teaming up with non-Christians will improve their
image???
If so, I would hire another public relations expert.
If so, I would hire another public relations expert.
Comments continue below
Re: Popularity | 11:23 a.m. April 8, 2008
For the LDS Church, image does not define us. Although there may be many
organizations out there that are shaped by popularity and power, the LDS Church
is not one of them. Also, just because someone is a non-Christian doesn't
mean we should not help them. If you are a Christian then you would be familiar
with the Parable of the Good Samaritan... "And Jesus answering said, A
certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which
stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half
dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw
him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the
place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain a
Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had
compassion on him." (Luke 10: 30-33) The injured man was most likely a
Jew. At the time Samaritans and Jews had a hostile relationship with each
other. Let's follow the teaching of Christ like true Christians should...
not image or popularity.
a firm believer | 11:57 a.m. April 8, 2008
It's good to see how the Church continues to give and do so much to help
the less fortunate in many parts of the world with its 'humanitarian
aid' program. Many people are being blessed because as a result.
Spreading the News is good | 12:49 p.m. April 8, 2008
Props to many people of the media who are unaffiliated with the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints but still recognize and portray many of the
positives.
Through some media it can be difficult to derive a fair reality of any group. But for the most part, I'm pleased with how much attention the LDS faith is receiving, because I think people can discern the laughable inaccuracies of the negatives portrayed, from the pleasantly appealing positives that welcomes all people to experience the same joy of living in truth.
I don't think the Savior was too concerned about good or bad publicity. His gospel is for each individual heart. Pure seekers of truth will not only hear His good news (Even if portrayed as bad), but one by one, they will come unto Him.
Through some media it can be difficult to derive a fair reality of any group. But for the most part, I'm pleased with how much attention the LDS faith is receiving, because I think people can discern the laughable inaccuracies of the negatives portrayed, from the pleasantly appealing positives that welcomes all people to experience the same joy of living in truth.
I don't think the Savior was too concerned about good or bad publicity. His gospel is for each individual heart. Pure seekers of truth will not only hear His good news (Even if portrayed as bad), but one by one, they will come unto Him.
To Popularity | 1:43 p.m. April 8, 2008
Considering your oblique, bigoted comment, I must with all due respect hit the
delete button on your comments. The only low regard is between your left ear and
your right ear.
Muslims are one of the descendants of Abraham, we are the other. Like it or not they are brothers.
Muslims are one of the descendants of Abraham, we are the other. Like it or not they are brothers.
Mormons? | 1:48 p.m. April 8, 2008
Who are the Mormons? I've never heard of them. Please tell me more
because I'm sure they're much better than all the other Christian
sects.
So what? | 3:37 p.m. April 8, 2008
If people wrote editorials about GBH, so what? Lots of people are written about
when they die. When GBH died, I did not see:
a) TV headlines, reports, etc.
b) Radio (Talk show or news) reports.
c) Non-mormon newspaper reports
I didn't hear it mentioned anywhere else! If GBH was so respected, don't you think I, the average American, may have heard something? If there was any media on it, I would've had to dig to get it. The average joe wouldn't have heard a thing about GBH's untimely death.
I am not trying to disrespect GBH. He was a man, he had ambitions, values, loved ones, hobbies, etc. Anyone should be sad when someone dies.
Point is, GBH isn't as well known as many mormons like to think.
a) TV headlines, reports, etc.
b) Radio (Talk show or news) reports.
c) Non-mormon newspaper reports
I didn't hear it mentioned anywhere else! If GBH was so respected, don't you think I, the average American, may have heard something? If there was any media on it, I would've had to dig to get it. The average joe wouldn't have heard a thing about GBH's untimely death.
I am not trying to disrespect GBH. He was a man, he had ambitions, values, loved ones, hobbies, etc. Anyone should be sad when someone dies.
Point is, GBH isn't as well known as many mormons like to think.
Reach Out | 4:01 p.m. April 8, 2008
I think it is only a matter of time before those who can't accept the flood
of Noah will leave the Mormon Church. Is this really one of the few remaining
Religions that still accepts the Bible? Interesting. Next the Mormons will be
the only ones who believe in Adam and Eve. You've got to love it.
I do like the Mormons partnering with Catholic and Muslim Charities to bring relief to people all over the world who are in great need. I wouldn't expect anything less.
I do like the Mormons partnering with Catholic and Muslim Charities to bring relief to people all over the world who are in great need. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Rich | 4:14 p.m. April 8, 2008
To Ello,
We all know that everything that is printed on the Internet is true. This is particularly the case when accessing sites that seek to discredit the Mormon Church, whose authors strive for utmost accuracy and objectivity, fully aware that any deviations from truth do nothing to further their cause, which is to cast disrepute on a church that seeks to further the teachings of a man who proclaimed himself to have the authority to speak for God. Yes, Jesus proclaimed himself to be the long-awaited Messiah, the only begotten son of God and the savior of mankind. The Mormons preach that Christ was to be believed when he taught that his father, the Eternal God, sent him to earth to do his father's will and that all should follow his example by being baptized by water and by the spirit, doing only good, avoiding temptation, showing kindness to their neighbors, and preaching the gospel to the world.
We all know that everything that is printed on the Internet is true. This is particularly the case when accessing sites that seek to discredit the Mormon Church, whose authors strive for utmost accuracy and objectivity, fully aware that any deviations from truth do nothing to further their cause, which is to cast disrepute on a church that seeks to further the teachings of a man who proclaimed himself to have the authority to speak for God. Yes, Jesus proclaimed himself to be the long-awaited Messiah, the only begotten son of God and the savior of mankind. The Mormons preach that Christ was to be believed when he taught that his father, the Eternal God, sent him to earth to do his father's will and that all should follow his example by being baptized by water and by the spirit, doing only good, avoiding temptation, showing kindness to their neighbors, and preaching the gospel to the world.
Interesting | 4:20 p.m. April 8, 2008
...how upset people get around here when there is a positive article written
about the LDS church. One commenter decided to quit attending, another is
probably not a member at all...that is your right and there aren't many, if
any comments on this site that will disparage you b/c or your choice. It's
interesting and reveals a lot about your character that you choose to make
negative comments each and every time the LDS faith is discussed.
Open your eyes and your hearts and recognize the tremendous amount of good the LDS church does 100% without any motive other than helping and improving the lives of others.
You should search to join a group that is similar.
Open your eyes and your hearts and recognize the tremendous amount of good the LDS church does 100% without any motive other than helping and improving the lives of others.
You should search to join a group that is similar.
To so what? | 4:46 p.m. April 8, 2008
Gordon B. Hinckley's passing had national coverage by option a, b, and c.
So what, if you didn't see or hear it?
So what, if you didn't see or hear it?
ello | 4:52 p.m. April 8, 2008
re: Interesting.
We are upset about the LDS Church because it claims to be something that it is not, and it hurts people while doing it. I know that the church works for you, that is fine, I dont want you to stop going. I just want the church to leave us non-members alone.
As soon as the church leaves us and the laws of this state alone, I will leave it alone. Deal?
We are upset about the LDS Church because it claims to be something that it is not, and it hurts people while doing it. I know that the church works for you, that is fine, I dont want you to stop going. I just want the church to leave us non-members alone.
As soon as the church leaves us and the laws of this state alone, I will leave it alone. Deal?
Interesting | 5:04 p.m. April 8, 2008
Re: ello
Explain in a lucid, non-derogatory way how the LDS church is 'hurting' you. Be specific please, b/c I don't think the church is out to get you personally, but I could be wrong.
Also, what socially responsible group would "leave the laws of the state (in which they reside...and country for that matter) alone"? Maybe that's how you think the LDS church is hurting you? You can't get health care from your partner or buy beer on Sunday?
At any rate, the LDS church does leave non-members alone. They don't force anybody in this state to respect the LDS church as an organization and you obviously have exercised your right to hold a negative view towards it (without negative consequences).
You're like a lot of other people who post (especially on the SL Trib) who refuse to give credit to one of the most benevolent organizations in the country, if not world, which provides help to members and non-members alike without qualifying criteria.
Maybe you should take the lessons (or take them again).
Best.
Explain in a lucid, non-derogatory way how the LDS church is 'hurting' you. Be specific please, b/c I don't think the church is out to get you personally, but I could be wrong.
Also, what socially responsible group would "leave the laws of the state (in which they reside...and country for that matter) alone"? Maybe that's how you think the LDS church is hurting you? You can't get health care from your partner or buy beer on Sunday?
At any rate, the LDS church does leave non-members alone. They don't force anybody in this state to respect the LDS church as an organization and you obviously have exercised your right to hold a negative view towards it (without negative consequences).
You're like a lot of other people who post (especially on the SL Trib) who refuse to give credit to one of the most benevolent organizations in the country, if not world, which provides help to members and non-members alike without qualifying criteria.
Maybe you should take the lessons (or take them again).
Best.
Ed Clinch | 7:17 p.m. April 8, 2008
Global awareness on this comment string is lacking.
I am LDS and there is good and bad in every church, including ours.
Many organizations are excellent. If we could all put effort into working in them, we would all be doing a good thing.
Use your best judgment in doing so.
Peace.
I am LDS and there is good and bad in every church, including ours.
Many organizations are excellent. If we could all put effort into working in them, we would all be doing a good thing.
Use your best judgment in doing so.
Peace.
Honesty | 7:36 p.m. April 8, 2008
Topics that will likely cause problems for the LDS Church are as follows:
1) History. Things that even most LDS do not know about the history of their own Church will come back to haunt future missionary efforts. It is time to come clean about the early history of the Church. There is so much that is positive but there are also some very troubling aspects and as intelligent people inside and outside the Church become aware of these things they will demand real answers in order to believe. You know what I'm talking about (you in authority). Time to come clean, there is, as I said so much that is positive about the LDS Church today, the past will be forgiven if--IF--there is honesty about the past.
2) Knowledge. Read the following very well written book by Richard Bushman--"Rough Stone Rolling". He is a very faithful member and this book is a must for every LDS to read to really know the history. There are other books that I won't mention also written by members that are available. Seek the truth and you will find it. He that has ears to hear let him hear.
1) History. Things that even most LDS do not know about the history of their own Church will come back to haunt future missionary efforts. It is time to come clean about the early history of the Church. There is so much that is positive but there are also some very troubling aspects and as intelligent people inside and outside the Church become aware of these things they will demand real answers in order to believe. You know what I'm talking about (you in authority). Time to come clean, there is, as I said so much that is positive about the LDS Church today, the past will be forgiven if--IF--there is honesty about the past.
2) Knowledge. Read the following very well written book by Richard Bushman--"Rough Stone Rolling". He is a very faithful member and this book is a must for every LDS to read to really know the history. There are other books that I won't mention also written by members that are available. Seek the truth and you will find it. He that has ears to hear let him hear.
lovesaltlake | 8:52 p.m. April 8, 2008
I once tried to obtain some seating in the Tabernacle for the Choir Broadcast
for some out of town-non member visitors. I attempted to get the middle bench
which has leg room. I was informed that the middle bench was reserved for heads
of state. I don't think there were any heads of state attending the
broadcast that day. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there were about 25 heads
of state at the tabernacle broadcast that day. But from this experience, I do
think the church hosting department perhaps puts too much emphasis on whom they
consider to be dignitaries and not enough emphasis on those who are not members
of the faith but have strong ties to members.
MoJules | 9:30 p.m. April 8, 2008
I watch Fox News and they are making sure that they stress that the polygamist
group in Texas is not associated with the Mormon church. I have noticed that
google articles have mostly stated this, all but one and I wrote that person to
let them know it was not correct. Well that thorn in our side may be fixed, now
if people will believe that we are Christian.
brer rabit | 10:52 p.m. April 8, 2008
This is the third time I have read comments that refrences an embarising event
in the churches history that the church (its members) would do well to learn.
Perhaps evan leave the church over. Vague refrence is not the way to prove your
point or to raise interest. I don't know who you are or who your sources of
information may be but this I know, historians in and out of the the church has
revealed much about this church since it's restoration and I seriously
doubt there are any hidden incidents that are floating around out there just
waiting to be brought to light. Inuendo is the worst form of journalism. Be
specific and tell us what this dark unrevealed historical "fact" is.
Living in a Bubble | 12:34 a.m. April 9, 2008
Utah Mormons live their lives in a precious bubble.
I lived in Utah for 5 years and was constantly amazed at both the ignorance and arrogance of Utahns. Before moving to Utah I thought many Americans believed they lived at the center of the Universe. But after my short stinct living in Utah, I became convinced that Utahns were the epitome of out-of-touch, narcissistic and deluded Americans.
I lived in Utah for 5 years and was constantly amazed at both the ignorance and arrogance of Utahns. Before moving to Utah I thought many Americans believed they lived at the center of the Universe. But after my short stinct living in Utah, I became convinced that Utahns were the epitome of out-of-touch, narcissistic and deluded Americans.
Sorry, time to get real. | 5:12 a.m. April 9, 2008
Come on lets get real here. Outside of the LDS circle very few people know, or
even want to know about the Church. LDS members love to think that somehow the
Church has an influence on the world when in reality it has very little if none
at all. Remember the Moonies??? Well many have heard of that Church in the same
way that they have heard of the LDS Church and thats where it ends. This is not
a criticism, simply a fact!!
Robert from NC | 5:20 a.m. April 9, 2008
I am pleased to hear positive and willing to listen to "truthful"
negative stories about the Church. It seems that most negative stories have been
made up by those with "axes to grind".
As a convert I was subjected to all kinds of persecution for converting from a sect that my family had been members of for about 100 years.
I read my Ensign and Deseret News to learn more about this wonderful organization and its interesting members. May those who fear and hate us at least get over the fear and learn to tolerate Christ's Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. My life has been blessed by my membership and association with the finest, most faithful, trusting people I have ever known. I still love my family and pray that they will one day get over the lies that have been told them about the church. Maybe this publicity about the Church will help them do so.
As a convert I was subjected to all kinds of persecution for converting from a sect that my family had been members of for about 100 years.
I read my Ensign and Deseret News to learn more about this wonderful organization and its interesting members. May those who fear and hate us at least get over the fear and learn to tolerate Christ's Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. My life has been blessed by my membership and association with the finest, most faithful, trusting people I have ever known. I still love my family and pray that they will one day get over the lies that have been told them about the church. Maybe this publicity about the Church will help them do so.
Big Guy | 6:38 a.m. April 9, 2008
I find it interesting that the only people that know about this great big deep
dark secret of the LDS Church are those that are against the Church and refuse
to share this horrible secret that only they know that is so very devistating to
the Church HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There have always been lies published about the
Church. And so long as we aren't in the Millenium they will continue to be
broadcast as truth. A great example of that is the lies that Hoffman created.
Who is a convicted murderer.
Clark Larsen | 9:24 a.m. April 9, 2008
To "brer rabit - 10:52 p.m." and "Big Guy - 6:38 a.m."
The "deep, dark" secrets that certain intellectuals and Christian leaders want EXPOSED about early LDS history is really not true history, but revisionist history.
Take for example Joesph and Hyrum Smith's death at Carthage. The revisionists are attempting to show that JS killed men at Carthage, (although, for some strange reason, they can never identify who they were) that JS didn't try to defend his brethren (since everyone knows there were only gunmen in the hallway of the jail and not outside the jail window) and that based on some obscure reading of the law, the shooting was somehow justified.
Historical revisionists simply want the LDS Church to let them re-write the early history of the church, then they will demand the LDS Church admit that the revisionist version is the true version.
To "Sorry, time to get real. - 5:12 a.m." No one is saying that every college and journalist in the world wants to study Mormonism, but in specific circles, there is growing interest. Think about the recent program on PBS about the LDS Church. Why did PBS produce it, if no one really cared?
The "deep, dark" secrets that certain intellectuals and Christian leaders want EXPOSED about early LDS history is really not true history, but revisionist history.
Take for example Joesph and Hyrum Smith's death at Carthage. The revisionists are attempting to show that JS killed men at Carthage, (although, for some strange reason, they can never identify who they were) that JS didn't try to defend his brethren (since everyone knows there were only gunmen in the hallway of the jail and not outside the jail window) and that based on some obscure reading of the law, the shooting was somehow justified.
Historical revisionists simply want the LDS Church to let them re-write the early history of the church, then they will demand the LDS Church admit that the revisionist version is the true version.
To "Sorry, time to get real. - 5:12 a.m." No one is saying that every college and journalist in the world wants to study Mormonism, but in specific circles, there is growing interest. Think about the recent program on PBS about the LDS Church. Why did PBS produce it, if no one really cared?
Ernest T. Bass | 9:33 a.m. April 9, 2008
It's fun to read comments by those wearing massive blinders (big guy).
Clark | 9:41 a.m. April 9, 2008
To "Living in a Bubble - 12:34 a.m." As much as I hate to admit it,
there is a little truth in your observation. As an active Latter-day Saint, born
and raised in Utah, there are some of my fellow Latter-day Saints who even drive
me nuts. That is one reason why I try to associate, as often as possible, with
people of many different backgrounds and beliefs.
There are also some aspects of Utah culture that I can't stand. For example, whenever an LDS themed movie like "The Singles Ward" comes out, I know some people who clamour over it like it's the greatest movie filmed since "Gone with the Wind." But having seen a few of those movies, they honestly make me want to puke. High quality, LDS-themed movies are more the exception than the rule.
One thing to remember about life in Utah. Just because the Latter-day Saints in neighborhood A and B are a little self-centered, doesn't mean the Latter-day Saints in neighborhood C and D aren't the kind of people that would give the shirt off their back to an athiest. In my life, I've seen both, and C and D is always better.
There are also some aspects of Utah culture that I can't stand. For example, whenever an LDS themed movie like "The Singles Ward" comes out, I know some people who clamour over it like it's the greatest movie filmed since "Gone with the Wind." But having seen a few of those movies, they honestly make me want to puke. High quality, LDS-themed movies are more the exception than the rule.
One thing to remember about life in Utah. Just because the Latter-day Saints in neighborhood A and B are a little self-centered, doesn't mean the Latter-day Saints in neighborhood C and D aren't the kind of people that would give the shirt off their back to an athiest. In my life, I've seen both, and C and D is always better.
Be Honest | 9:53 a.m. April 9, 2008
It does seem that those who are against the Church are unable to find ANY good
in it. I personally struggle with whether I believe there was an actual apostacy
and the full truth later restored through Joseph Smith. Some doctrines and
history largely under Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have caused me to honestly
question the absolute truth claims of the Church.
BUT - one cannot deny the wonderful service the Church performs around the world and locally for both non-members and members. It is legitimate to struggle with one's personal testimony as I do. But I find it very disengenous not to recognize and commend the charity and service performed daily as well as the genuine good intent of the majority of LDS leaders and members.
BUT - one cannot deny the wonderful service the Church performs around the world and locally for both non-members and members. It is legitimate to struggle with one's personal testimony as I do. But I find it very disengenous not to recognize and commend the charity and service performed daily as well as the genuine good intent of the majority of LDS leaders and members.
Wilma Aebischer | 9:49 a.m. April 9, 2008
For those of you who have not been blessed with membership in the Lord's
church, I say search, ponder and pray and if you will listen the Lord he will
tell you what to do. I was raised in a wonderful LDS home by a very faithful
mother. Although times were hard during the depression, she lived the letter of
the law and encouraged us to do the same. We honored our Church Leaders, we
studied the scriptures,and we did charitable acts for others because as poor as
we were, My mother was a true Daughter of our Heavenly Father, and she taught by
example. I did not live in Utah, near the church headquarters, but the gospel
was still the same no matter where we lived. My ancestors crossed the plains,
and my great grandfather is buried on the plains. Their personal journals are a
testimony strenghtening volume that I treasure. Our Heavenly Father loves every
one, and it is my prayer that you will honor that whether you are member or not.
Blinders??? | 9:53 a.m. April 9, 2008
Ernest T. Bass' comments reminds me of one of Gordon B. Hinckley's
final talks, when he said, "I am now in my 95th year. I never dreamed that
I would live this long. My life reminds me of a sign that hung by a rusty staple
to a run-down barbed-wire fence in Texas. It read: Burned out by drought,
Drowned out by flud waters, Et out by jackrabbits, Sold out by sheriff, Still
here!"
Since the 1830's, LDS Church critics have used printing presses, newspapers, books, radio programs, television, CD roms, the Internet and everything else in between, to try and embarass, expose, humiliate, mock and discredit the LDS Church. The LDS Church is "still here" and is larger now than ever.
Since the 1830's, LDS Church critics have used printing presses, newspapers, books, radio programs, television, CD roms, the Internet and everything else in between, to try and embarass, expose, humiliate, mock and discredit the LDS Church. The LDS Church is "still here" and is larger now than ever.
Grant A. | 10:11 a.m. April 9, 2008
To Be Honest | 9:53 a.m. ,
When Joseph Smith was evaluating different religions back in 1820, did HE find any good in the Churches of his day? No. He condemned them all, wholesale, saying they were all "an abomonation" and false.
But the truth is that those churches back then were doing a great deal of good. They were engaging in humanitarian aid. they were helping the poor, homeless, and destitute. they were helping people with handicaps and those who had been marginalized in society. they taught reading and writing and rithmetic along with good christian values. they established religious traditions that are far older than the Mormons, and which continue to do much good even today!
So by your same argument, wasn't it disengenuous of Joseph Smith (and most of his successors) to find only fault with other churches and religions while ignoring all the good they did!?
Be careful of your comments. Hypocrisy is not becoming a true christian.
When Joseph Smith was evaluating different religions back in 1820, did HE find any good in the Churches of his day? No. He condemned them all, wholesale, saying they were all "an abomonation" and false.
But the truth is that those churches back then were doing a great deal of good. They were engaging in humanitarian aid. they were helping the poor, homeless, and destitute. they were helping people with handicaps and those who had been marginalized in society. they taught reading and writing and rithmetic along with good christian values. they established religious traditions that are far older than the Mormons, and which continue to do much good even today!
So by your same argument, wasn't it disengenuous of Joseph Smith (and most of his successors) to find only fault with other churches and religions while ignoring all the good they did!?
Be careful of your comments. Hypocrisy is not becoming a true christian.
RE: BUBBLE | 10:25 a.m. April 9, 2008
I've lived in 7 states, and I find arrogance and ignorance of the rest of
the world in all of those places; what's your point?
Phil | 10:37 a.m. April 9, 2008
To all of you who seem to be saying that the fact that the Church is still here
is somehow proof of its truth --
Oops!
The Catholic Church that you claim went into "apostasy" is still here.
Communism is still here.
Drug trafficking is still here.
Prostitution is still here.
Just because an institution is still here proves nothing.
Oops!
The Catholic Church that you claim went into "apostasy" is still here.
Communism is still here.
Drug trafficking is still here.
Prostitution is still here.
Just because an institution is still here proves nothing.
Dono | 10:43 a.m. April 9, 2008
Grant A.
Joseph did not call the Churches of his day an abomination - He said that their creeds were an abomination. The creeds of those churches taught a God with no body, parts, or passions. Joseph Smith taught that God who deeply loves His children is offended by those creeds.
Throughout his life Joseph praised the good that all men did but condemed the confusion of doctrine.
Joseph did not call the Churches of his day an abomination - He said that their creeds were an abomination. The creeds of those churches taught a God with no body, parts, or passions. Joseph Smith taught that God who deeply loves His children is offended by those creeds.
Throughout his life Joseph praised the good that all men did but condemed the confusion of doctrine.
Grant A. | 11:01 a.m. April 9, 2008
To Dono,
And condemning LDS doctrines, creeds, history is what many are doing, but you don't stand for it.
This is pure hypocrisy, and you can't gloss it over. Mormons have historically held a double standard, condemning other religions, but then getting upset when others condemn Mormons.
I repeat, hypocrisy.
And condemning LDS doctrines, creeds, history is what many are doing, but you don't stand for it.
This is pure hypocrisy, and you can't gloss it over. Mormons have historically held a double standard, condemning other religions, but then getting upset when others condemn Mormons.
I repeat, hypocrisy.
To so what? | 11:15 a.m. April 9, 2008
I live near Washington DC. When President Hinckley died I heard about it on the
radio the next morning on several stations, including the largest news radio
station in this market. I also read about it in the A section of the Washington
Post, although it wasn't on the front page, it was in the first several
pages of the paper. The section of the Post they generally use for top national
and international news. Not that I'm a huge fan of everything that appears
in the Washington Post, but many consider it to be one of the top papers in the
country. I also saw his death mentioned on a couple of national cable news TV
channels that morning. So you may want to check your facts a little bit better
before you start claiming that no one outside of Utah noticed when President
Hinckley died.
bcd | 11:26 a.m. April 9, 2008
BLAH<BLAH<BLAH<BLAH
Grant A. | 11:39 a.m. April 9, 2008
I do see hypocrisy.
As you said, Mormons may condemn other religions (doctrines creeds history); but as you said, others condemn Mormons.
IOW, as a former Catholic I may condemn the Catholic doctrines, creeds, and history - But I never condemn Catholics.
As BeHonest said; many of our critics can not seem to just criticize our doctrines, etc... They must condemn Mormons.
The criticism of doctrines is healthy theological debate - the criticism of groups and individuals is not; and is upsetting for anyone.
This is what is offensive and hypocritical
As you said, Mormons may condemn other religions (doctrines creeds history); but as you said, others condemn Mormons.
IOW, as a former Catholic I may condemn the Catholic doctrines, creeds, and history - But I never condemn Catholics.
As BeHonest said; many of our critics can not seem to just criticize our doctrines, etc... They must condemn Mormons.
The criticism of doctrines is healthy theological debate - the criticism of groups and individuals is not; and is upsetting for anyone.
This is what is offensive and hypocritical
To Grant A. | 12:11 p.m. April 9, 2008
You responded to my "Be Honest" post. And I agree that LDS historical
and current criticism of other religions without acknowledging the good is
absolutely wrong. I would say their seems to have been a trend largely under
President Hinckley to at least verbalize a respect and appreciation for other
faiths (not to say this wasn't done previous but Hinckley was very PR
oriented). Granted, this is done while maintaining the absolute truth of the LDS
Church insinuating (or declaring) that only some truth is found in other
faiths.
Early Church leaders - particularly once the Saints arrived in Utah until the turn of the century - were VERY explicit in their criticism of other faiths such as Christianity and Judaism (Brigham Young was not a big fan of the Jews).
If you are the author Grant - I loved your book. If not, I've enjoyed your posts.
Early Church leaders - particularly once the Saints arrived in Utah until the turn of the century - were VERY explicit in their criticism of other faiths such as Christianity and Judaism (Brigham Young was not a big fan of the Jews).
If you are the author Grant - I loved your book. If not, I've enjoyed your posts.
To Grant A. | 12:23 p.m. April 9, 2008
Oddly enough, the LDS Church has partnered with many faith groups (including
non-Christian as someone above mentioned) in humanitarian efforts, and has
actively done so since the early days. I am LDS and have no problem with people
criticizing my beliefs or institutional history. Free agency is a wonderful
gift.
There is no hypocrisy in believing that one belongs to the only true faith. I am entertained by people who bristle at such a disclaimer, and inform me that I am being judgmental and cannot make such a claim. Obviously they fail to see the irony of their own position being the right one, and mine wrong.
I live in Georgia and heard quite a bit about President Hinckley's death from mainstream media here. The LDS Church is more widely recognized now than ever in this region, for good and ill.
There is no hypocrisy in believing that one belongs to the only true faith. I am entertained by people who bristle at such a disclaimer, and inform me that I am being judgmental and cannot make such a claim. Obviously they fail to see the irony of their own position being the right one, and mine wrong.
I live in Georgia and heard quite a bit about President Hinckley's death from mainstream media here. The LDS Church is more widely recognized now than ever in this region, for good and ill.
Dono | 12:50 p.m. April 9, 2008
Didn't mean to put words in someone elses mouth - the post labeled
"GrantA. 11:39am" was supposed to be "to" GrantA. and was
from Dono.
Names kind of got mixed up in the post.
Question to "Be Honest" (a.k.a. "To Grant A. 12:11 pm") I think rhetoric was stronger on all sides; but do you feel early Utah Mormons were generally attempting to disparage the character or good intentions of people within those religions?
I recall reading some historic criticisms, but they were a weak imitation of what was being said about the Mormons.
Names kind of got mixed up in the post.
Question to "Be Honest" (a.k.a. "To Grant A. 12:11 pm") I think rhetoric was stronger on all sides; but do you feel early Utah Mormons were generally attempting to disparage the character or good intentions of people within those religions?
I recall reading some historic criticisms, but they were a weak imitation of what was being said about the Mormons.
Mills Levan | 12:58 p.m. April 9, 2008
Grant A., I agree wholeheartedly that in the discussion of religion the
codemnation of anything other than sin is counter productive. At the same time
it seems that as far as the LDS Church AND its members are concerned you have
blinders on your eyes and fingers in your ears. Every member of every church has
warts. Every organization in which mortals are involved has made mistakes. But
to dismiss or minimize sacred truths because you may not agree with (or
misunderstand) the pronouncements or behavior of certain members is equally
counter productive. Gratefully, testimonies of the truth are based in/on the
things of Eternity rather than any mortal.
Grant A. | 1:23 p.m. April 9, 2008
To Dono,
Early Mormons (not just Utah Mormons) definitely disparaged the character and good intentions of other religions, not just politely disagreeing with their doctrines and creeds.
Starting with Joseph Smith, who did not just declare that the "creeds" of other religions were "an abomination," but he also make personal attacks: "those professors were all corrupt; that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (Pearl of Great Price, JS-History 1:19).
There is no way any of you apologetic Mormons can possibly twist that to make it sound like he wasn't disparaging the PEOPLE and LEADERS of other religions, so don't even try.
And if you would like to go farther down this line of reasoning, I haven't even begun to get into BH Roberts' History of the Church, nor the Journal of Discourses.
The undeniable truth is that Mormonism has been openly and officially antagonistic against other religions, the people and leaders of them, not just their "teachings", from the beginning. Anyone who denies this is living a lie.
Early Mormons (not just Utah Mormons) definitely disparaged the character and good intentions of other religions, not just politely disagreeing with their doctrines and creeds.
Starting with Joseph Smith, who did not just declare that the "creeds" of other religions were "an abomination," but he also make personal attacks: "those professors were all corrupt; that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (Pearl of Great Price, JS-History 1:19).
There is no way any of you apologetic Mormons can possibly twist that to make it sound like he wasn't disparaging the PEOPLE and LEADERS of other religions, so don't even try.
And if you would like to go farther down this line of reasoning, I haven't even begun to get into BH Roberts' History of the Church, nor the Journal of Discourses.
The undeniable truth is that Mormonism has been openly and officially antagonistic against other religions, the people and leaders of them, not just their "teachings", from the beginning. Anyone who denies this is living a lie.
Clark | 1:25 p.m. April 9, 2008
Grant - Your last few comments seem confusing to me. Please, correct me if
I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that critics of the LDS Church only
criticize the church because of its doctrine. While at the same time, LDS Church
members and leaders frequently attack the doctrine and character of its critics,
as well as members of other faiths.
I'm sorry but I just don't see it that way. I can't think of a single time when a current LDS leader said anything like, "All Baptists are pigs," or "If you drink coffee, I hope you burn."
If you can point out where an LDS leader or prominent LDS member has said anything like that, I would very much like to know. At the same time, I can show you website after website, pamphlet after pamphlet in which LDS Church leaders and members are frequently attacked, mocked and ridiculed.
I agree that discussion about doctrine and differences in belief can be healthy and positive, but such discussions are too few and sometimes are even condemned. Some prominent ex-mormons, like Shawn McCranney, even say that LDS people have no right to discuss their own doctrine. Why not?
I'm sorry but I just don't see it that way. I can't think of a single time when a current LDS leader said anything like, "All Baptists are pigs," or "If you drink coffee, I hope you burn."
If you can point out where an LDS leader or prominent LDS member has said anything like that, I would very much like to know. At the same time, I can show you website after website, pamphlet after pamphlet in which LDS Church leaders and members are frequently attacked, mocked and ridiculed.
I agree that discussion about doctrine and differences in belief can be healthy and positive, but such discussions are too few and sometimes are even condemned. Some prominent ex-mormons, like Shawn McCranney, even say that LDS people have no right to discuss their own doctrine. Why not?
Dono | 3:23 p.m. April 9, 2008
GrantA.
Actually starting with Jesus who called the Pharisees some choice names and bemoaned the Jews in general. I don't suppose you can criticize someone's religion without impuning the character of those who make the doctrine. That's still a long way from the devils that Mormons were made out to be by the Christian world.
Joseph said Jesus said that they were corrupt, then specifically said in what way - not that they were compleatly evil, but they had been corrupted. And even that was directed to the Professors - not the PEOPLE of the church. The professors are those theologians who dream doctrines that are the philosophies of men, and deny the power of God.
Sure people are going to take offense - just like the Pharisees did - but in a time before anyone was "PC" this was preatty tame, nowhere near the hatred and rancor put upon the Saints then or even now by many.
That the all the leaders didn't live up to current imagined PC standards, and maybe were somewhat bitter over all the murders - OK - but still a weak reflection of what they recieved.
Actually starting with Jesus who called the Pharisees some choice names and bemoaned the Jews in general. I don't suppose you can criticize someone's religion without impuning the character of those who make the doctrine. That's still a long way from the devils that Mormons were made out to be by the Christian world.
Joseph said Jesus said that they were corrupt, then specifically said in what way - not that they were compleatly evil, but they had been corrupted. And even that was directed to the Professors - not the PEOPLE of the church. The professors are those theologians who dream doctrines that are the philosophies of men, and deny the power of God.
Sure people are going to take offense - just like the Pharisees did - but in a time before anyone was "PC" this was preatty tame, nowhere near the hatred and rancor put upon the Saints then or even now by many.
That the all the leaders didn't live up to current imagined PC standards, and maybe were somewhat bitter over all the murders - OK - but still a weak reflection of what they recieved.
To Grant A. | 3:44 p.m. April 9, 2008
Well as far as citing Pearl of Great Price in an effort to say Mormons condemn
entire groups of people goes, you are citing something that God said. So if you
have a problem with it, take it up with Him. You don't know personally all
of the ministers/professors etc. that Joseph Smith was dealing with, so who
knows, maybe it was true that they were corrupt. They found a need to persecute
a 14 year old boy, so that doesn't say a whole lot to their own character.
Anonymous | 5:06 p.m. April 9, 2008
Polygamy should stop the growth
Z | 5:27 p.m. April 9, 2008
To Grant A.
Joseph Smith was merely quoting what the Lord had said to him in reference to two scriptures found in the Bible. Isaiah chapter 29:13-15, and also
2 Timothy chapter 3:1-5.
Joseph Smith was merely quoting what the Lord had said to him in reference to two scriptures found in the Bible. Isaiah chapter 29:13-15, and also
2 Timothy chapter 3:1-5.
Sorry Grant, but... | 5:48 p.m. April 9, 2008
Grant,
I know you and other LDS critics think, all you need to do is pull out the Pearl of Great Price and the debate is over. Sorry, but your interpretation of those scriptures is incorrect. If LDS leaders simply despise all religions, as you claim, then what about these quotes, just to name a few.
"I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination."
- Joseph Smith
"We owe much to the many brave martyrs and reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Huss who demanded freedom to worship and common access to the holy books."
- M. Russell Ballard
When Pope John Paul II died, here was part of the First presidency statement.
"...an extraordinary man of faith and
intellect, whose courageous actions have touched the world in ways that will be felt for generations to come."
Go ahead and spin the POGP all you want. It doesn't take away from the facts or justify the volumes of volumes of hateful, cruel and dishonest writings of many LDS critics.
I know you and other LDS critics think, all you need to do is pull out the Pearl of Great Price and the debate is over. Sorry, but your interpretation of those scriptures is incorrect. If LDS leaders simply despise all religions, as you claim, then what about these quotes, just to name a few.
"I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination."
- Joseph Smith
"We owe much to the many brave martyrs and reformers like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Huss who demanded freedom to worship and common access to the holy books."
- M. Russell Ballard
When Pope John Paul II died, here was part of the First presidency statement.
"...an extraordinary man of faith and
intellect, whose courageous actions have touched the world in ways that will be felt for generations to come."
Go ahead and spin the POGP all you want. It doesn't take away from the facts or justify the volumes of volumes of hateful, cruel and dishonest writings of many LDS critics.
To "So What" | 6:12 p.m. April 9, 2008
I agree with several other posters. I live in Oklahoma and I saw stories on TV
(Fox News for sure and I think I saw it on CNN as well) about Pres.
Hinckley's death and I saw about 3 or 4 stories on msn.com and aol.com
about it as well. Newsweeks.com (which is a somewhat liberal publication) had
several stories on it also. They even had a decent length story on Thomas S.
Monson because word got out to the non-Mormon media that he would be selected by
Church leadership to serve as the next prophet.
So, it's quite obvious that you either A) live under a rock or B) you just hate the LDS church. My money is on the latter....
So, it's quite obvious that you either A) live under a rock or B) you just hate the LDS church. My money is on the latter....
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