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LDS officials to meet with gay group
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Dane | 12:57 p.m. April 8, 2008
The LDS Church believes homosexuality is wrong and that's not going to
change. True some people have an attraction to members of the same sex. As long
as they don't act on those feelings they can remain worthy members of the
church. BYU's honor code will not change. Why should it? Straight
students can't honorably attend if they are sexually active. They're
not going to make an exception for a minority group.
Moessers | 1:11 p.m. April 8, 2008
To: "Don't Blame Genetics"
That's like saying downs syndrome, or sickle cell, or cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago.
That's like saying downs syndrome, or sickle cell, or cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago.
Sagacious Inquisitor | 1:11 p.m. April 8, 2008
RE: Sagacious | 11:40 a.m. Apr. 8
To which �civil rights� do you refer? Those civil rights outlawing sex with children or animals? Those similar civil rights outlawing polygamy, prostitution or sex outside marriage? Those under which Texas is prosecuting the RLDS? Which sexually related laws violate your civil rights? How? Which should be abolished? If some, to make things even, why not all?
Did someone unjustly call you a pedophile? That would be wrong! If, however, you support pedophilia through child pornography, or in any way, would such name calling make things more even?
If someone believes your lifestyle is potentially �the downfall of society� should they be vilified and silenced while you retain the right to openly advocate your agenda? Does the imposition of �standards of normalicy� by society imply evil to �those who think they are all knowing�; whilst you of a vastly minor and opposing viewpoint are really the ones who �are all knowing�?
Have you; others you know; suffered �physical violence� from the normal society which oppresses you?
Have you suffered it from the twisted community?
Either way, it�s wrong; and should be prosecuted under law.
Would that even division of prosecution satisfy you?
To which �civil rights� do you refer? Those civil rights outlawing sex with children or animals? Those similar civil rights outlawing polygamy, prostitution or sex outside marriage? Those under which Texas is prosecuting the RLDS? Which sexually related laws violate your civil rights? How? Which should be abolished? If some, to make things even, why not all?
Did someone unjustly call you a pedophile? That would be wrong! If, however, you support pedophilia through child pornography, or in any way, would such name calling make things more even?
If someone believes your lifestyle is potentially �the downfall of society� should they be vilified and silenced while you retain the right to openly advocate your agenda? Does the imposition of �standards of normalicy� by society imply evil to �those who think they are all knowing�; whilst you of a vastly minor and opposing viewpoint are really the ones who �are all knowing�?
Have you; others you know; suffered �physical violence� from the normal society which oppresses you?
Have you suffered it from the twisted community?
Either way, it�s wrong; and should be prosecuted under law.
Would that even division of prosecution satisfy you?
Comments continue below
WJ | 1:30 p.m. April 8, 2008
Gays who have illicit sex should be expelled. As the article states, "The
same standard applies to straight students." Good point. Gays should be
accepted, but acting on their tendencies should not, just as fornication is not
accepted.
BLJT | 1:44 p.m. April 8, 2008
To Dane and WJ: I think the point about the honor code at BYU is that it has
not always been applied equally. Gay students have been expelled for things far
short of sex, such as hand-holding and merely "associating" with other
gay people.
Sagacious Inquisitor | 1:51 p.m. April 8, 2008
Moessers,
Great insight!
In the spirit of true and open acceptance and for the sake of absolute, unquestioning tolerance; as with Down Syndrome, or Sickle Cell, or Cancer we should probably accept the mutation causing Homosexuality as a normal condition of humankind.
Do you think?
Great insight!
In the spirit of true and open acceptance and for the sake of absolute, unquestioning tolerance; as with Down Syndrome, or Sickle Cell, or Cancer we should probably accept the mutation causing Homosexuality as a normal condition of humankind.
Do you think?
Rich | 1:53 p.m. April 8, 2008
I've decided to comment without first reading the comments posted here.
I'm hopeful the posters exhibited the same spirit of hopefulness and
reconciliation and understanding that the LDS Church and Affirmation have
expressed. Yes, there is a need for what Ms. Larabee calls for: "more
understanding, more acceptance and less isolation." Though I myself am a
heterosexual LDS man, I have good friends who are gay and have had gay friends
who have died of AIDs. I love and accept my gay friends and am confident they
will be met by a loving and accepting God on the other side of the veil. On the
other hand, I don't believe that God countenances either gay sex or
extramarital heterosexual sex. We are all humans, prone to making mistakes,
whether we are gay or hetero. Such mistakes can lead to much unhappiness,
including a loss of self-esteem. I have no problem having openly sexuallly
active gays in church just as I have no problem accepting couples who live
together outside marriage. But I don't think the church can be expected to
start issuing temple recommends to members of either group.
Don't Blame Genetics | 1:51 p.m. April 8, 2008
To Moessers,
"That's like saying downs syndrome, or sickle cell, or cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago."
Those diseases aren't always caused by genetic inheritance from your parents. Cancer, for example, can be caused the introduction of external substances, (i.e. smoking, radiation exposure, etc.).
Genetic pre-disposition can lead to illnesses like that, and to the extent that death occurs before adulthood they do tend to select themselves out. The problem is that these conditions often do not cause death before the person reproduces.
If homosexuality were genetically related it would not necessarily select itself out of existence entirely because, as I mentioned, homosexuals do sometimes marry heterosexually and have children. However, it would tend towards elimination. What we see in society today is that homosexuality is a growing problem, not a shrinking one.
The genetic traits leading to the illnesses you mention can be traced from generation to generation. Why do we not see that with homosexuality?
Above all my primary point remains, all of us have genetically produced desires that can lead us to sin. We have to control those desires if we want to be productive members of society.
"That's like saying downs syndrome, or sickle cell, or cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago."
Those diseases aren't always caused by genetic inheritance from your parents. Cancer, for example, can be caused the introduction of external substances, (i.e. smoking, radiation exposure, etc.).
Genetic pre-disposition can lead to illnesses like that, and to the extent that death occurs before adulthood they do tend to select themselves out. The problem is that these conditions often do not cause death before the person reproduces.
If homosexuality were genetically related it would not necessarily select itself out of existence entirely because, as I mentioned, homosexuals do sometimes marry heterosexually and have children. However, it would tend towards elimination. What we see in society today is that homosexuality is a growing problem, not a shrinking one.
The genetic traits leading to the illnesses you mention can be traced from generation to generation. Why do we not see that with homosexuality?
Above all my primary point remains, all of us have genetically produced desires that can lead us to sin. We have to control those desires if we want to be productive members of society.
Just curious | 2:01 p.m. April 8, 2008
How is that so many people here have so many gay friends? Statistics show that
only 3% of the population is gay. So if you have 100 good friends, which is a
lot of GOOD friends 3 of them would be gay. Yet a number of people on here have
a lot of gay friends. I have only known about 5 or so openly gay people in my
life.
Judgement | 2:14 p.m. April 8, 2008
I think trying to discern what is in anybody's heart is difficult if not
impossible. None of us know where another is on his spiritual journey. I
cannot believe anybody would choose the lifestyle of the gay person if he truly
had a choice. Life is difficult enough for the straight person. I think each
of us is charged with helping all persons to reach their goals where we are
able. Life must be very lonely for those who find themselves unable to live
their chosen spiritual path without the support of loved ones and friends and
with a spirit that tells them they are different. I can only imagine trying to
be happy and live a fulfilled life as a person that is reviled by the general
public, wondering if the next person they meet is going to be so disagreeable as
to be even dangerous to their very life. It would be wonderful for the families
of these loved ones to be able to live without the dread of hearing off colored
jokes and cruel criticism of their gay loved one.
Seriously | 2:29 p.m. April 8, 2008
I'm sorry, but framing homosexuality as a civil rights movement is
ridiculous and opens a pandora's box for other destructive behavior. If we
need to legislate to protect the "right" of gays than we need to
legislate to protect the "right" of smokers, drug addicts, and
alcoholics. How is sexual preference different than any other preference? If
we protect the rights of one group's preferences we have to do it for
everyone. The Bill of Rights is enough for everyone.
RE:Sagacious PT 2 | 2:36 p.m. April 8, 2008
I am referring to my right to live my life equally under the laws, i.e
marriage/legal rights. Where you came up with all the sexual content, I
don't know, I never mentioned it. Get your mind out of my bedroom
Yes, I have been called a pedophile and on this very site. Because I am gay, I would call that "unjustly" wouldn't you? And no I DON'T support any type of child exploitation be it pornography or polgamy. Again, don't know where you got that.
NO ONE needs ot remain silent, again something I didn't say. BUt why should I remain silent as a minority? And what about your agenda? Aren't you promoting it? Why shouldn't I??
Yes, I have suffered physical violence because I was gay. But I could not prosecute it as a hate crime with stiffer penalties because crimes against gays are not classified as hate crimes. You can't prosecute a law that doesn't exist.
Finally, yes I would like to see an equal division of rights. Both good and bad, based on a system of balance, equality and justice. Would YOU settle for anything less?
Yes, I have been called a pedophile and on this very site. Because I am gay, I would call that "unjustly" wouldn't you? And no I DON'T support any type of child exploitation be it pornography or polgamy. Again, don't know where you got that.
NO ONE needs ot remain silent, again something I didn't say. BUt why should I remain silent as a minority? And what about your agenda? Aren't you promoting it? Why shouldn't I??
Yes, I have suffered physical violence because I was gay. But I could not prosecute it as a hate crime with stiffer penalties because crimes against gays are not classified as hate crimes. You can't prosecute a law that doesn't exist.
Finally, yes I would like to see an equal division of rights. Both good and bad, based on a system of balance, equality and justice. Would YOU settle for anything less?
SGL | 2:32 p.m. April 8, 2008
Dane...you mention that there are people that are attracted to the same sex, but
as long as they keep it to themselves, then they can still be worthy members of
the church...is'nt that being a little hypercritical. When the Bishop
ask's you if you have been moraly clean for your temple recomandation, what
is one to do??? LIE??? Just like the person who lies about having a beer once
in a while, and then tells the bishop that he/she has been moraly clean. I
would rather see someone be truthful and say yes I am gay, and still be
accepted, then to see someone lie, just to put on a good show.
An oversea summary | 2:48 p.m. April 8, 2008
Being from an oversea country where Church is still "emerging", I am
quite saddened by some of your comments. We tend to look up to you, the Sion...
Let me summarize the few noteworthy thoughts stated here, for the benefit of
those who might be in need: 1) You'd better never tell anyone, especially
if you sincerely hope and plan to remain temple worthy; 2) You will always lack
the emotional closeness, someone you can actually talk to; But you can develop
much closer relationship with your Savior. Afer all, He is the only one who
really understands you. 3) In the moments of despair and temptation, just
remember "straight" men fight these battles too, only their enemy
looks different. And let me add two more: 4) Beware of the feelings of being
treated injustly (no matter how unfair it felt to suddenly discover yours was
the SGA), simply don't dwell on it and get involved in other things. And if
you really cant't at this moment, hang on (and hold to the rod) till you
again can. And 5)Yes, definitely, you have the right to belong to this group,
it's your Heavenly Father's kingdom.
EasternLDS | 2:57 p.m. April 8, 2008
To Dave:
I never said I was an expert on the topic however I do believe that homosexuality is a behavioral choice. We are not animals. We can train our desires.
I never said I was an expert on the topic however I do believe that homosexuality is a behavioral choice. We are not animals. We can train our desires.
Reed (again) | 3:07 p.m. April 8, 2008
Quote scripture, modern prophets, alien visitors and interpret them as you
will. It's moderately applicable and mildly entertaining. But, the God I
know cares more about how we treat our fellow beings than our grasp of doctrine.
Having a good heart, caring attitude, humble demeanor and contrite spirit is
going to carry us further toward our eternal goals than comprehension of
convoluted or partially disclosed church teachings. It is not the church we
worship, it is God. Come judgement day, do you really think He will ask you to
quote scripture or explain doctrine? Or, might He get more to the point and ask,
"When your brother suffered, what gavest thou him? Understanding & love
or a lecture on right versus wrong.
I apologize if I was guilty of name calling. That was not my intention. However, I am reminded of one of my fathers favorite sayings, "If the shoe fits, wear it".
I apologize if I was guilty of name calling. That was not my intention. However, I am reminded of one of my fathers favorite sayings, "If the shoe fits, wear it".
Dear BYU-- | 3:09 p.m. April 8, 2008
Does anyone see the double-standard in saying "The same standard at BYU
applies to straight students--Sex outside of marriage is wrong!?"
Okay then, straight people can get married and then have sex, but is that available to homosexuals? NO! What hubris! Is the only thing that would make straight people see how wrong they are a proclamation against straight marriage?
Okay then, straight people can get married and then have sex, but is that available to homosexuals? NO! What hubris! Is the only thing that would make straight people see how wrong they are a proclamation against straight marriage?
Hey More to the Equation | 3:23 p.m. April 8, 2008
Are you an idiot? Homosexuality IS all about the sex. If you take the sex away
it is hanging out with the guys (or girls).
There are and have been many men in my life who I loved dearly and wanted to spend time with but I never thought of them in a sexual way.
This was NOT same gender attraction and should not be confused with it or homosexuality. This is healthy.
Taking it to the level of fantasizing about the other person and getting naked is unhealthy and wrong.
There are and have been many men in my life who I loved dearly and wanted to spend time with but I never thought of them in a sexual way.
This was NOT same gender attraction and should not be confused with it or homosexuality. This is healthy.
Taking it to the level of fantasizing about the other person and getting naked is unhealthy and wrong.
Rich | 3:24 p.m. April 8, 2008
Just Curious, have you wondered how many covertly gay people you have known? In
my case I graduated high school in a class of 450, meaning that if I accept your
3% guideline, then about 15 of them were gay. I also had close associations
with many students who were a year younger and a year older than I was due to
the type of school I attended and the activities in which I took part. Each of
those classes was composed of approximately 400 persons, so that's another
24 gay persons who were in my school at any given time when I was a junior, for
a total of 39. I knew about two -thirds of the students my age and about half
the students who were a year older or younger than I was. In college I had
close associations with perhaps 200 other students in my on-campus job, student
organizations, intramural sports, etc. So there's another six gays I would
know by name. In my professional life I knew two gays who worked in my office
at my first big job, and I'm sure there were others. There are 200 people
in my LDS ward. Etc.
BLJT | 3:37 p.m. April 8, 2008
Sexual orientation is such a bigger part of one's life than a temptation to
drink alcohol, or smoke, or "lose one's temper", or drive above
the speed limit.
I just want to ask all these people who keep making those comparisons to imagine a world where the vast majority of people were attracted to others of the same sex, such that for a long time it was considered the only norm. Yet you are attracted to the opposite sex, you always have been, and you don't know why. Can you imagine trying to conform to the norm that is expected of you? Could you will yourself to become gay? And would that be at all like abstaining from coffee?
I just want to ask all these people who keep making those comparisons to imagine a world where the vast majority of people were attracted to others of the same sex, such that for a long time it was considered the only norm. Yet you are attracted to the opposite sex, you always have been, and you don't know why. Can you imagine trying to conform to the norm that is expected of you? Could you will yourself to become gay? And would that be at all like abstaining from coffee?
Yo SGL | 3:43 p.m. April 8, 2008
SGL: You are asked if you keep the Law of Chastity. If you have attraction
isssues and do not act on it, you are keeping the LOC. This holds true for
opposite or same gender attraction.
No-Mo | 3:38 p.m. April 8, 2008
Well, I am glad that the church never changes its mind or updates its
understanding of God's will, otherwise we would have blacks holding the
priesthood today.
Moessers | 3:53 p.m. April 8, 2008
To Don't Blame Genetics:
You call homosexuality a growing problem? Not a shrinking one?
You have no idea how many people over the last millions of years since man walked out the primordial soup have been gay. But given religious zealots, they hid their true human characteristics. Now, a large portion of society has gained understanding and realize that gays and lesbians are people too, so more homosexuals are able to be open and free about it.
Fortunately the shrinking problem is society's intolerance of gays and lesbians.
You call homosexuality a growing problem? Not a shrinking one?
You have no idea how many people over the last millions of years since man walked out the primordial soup have been gay. But given religious zealots, they hid their true human characteristics. Now, a large portion of society has gained understanding and realize that gays and lesbians are people too, so more homosexuals are able to be open and free about it.
Fortunately the shrinking problem is society's intolerance of gays and lesbians.
John | 4:00 p.m. April 8, 2008
Can someone please list for me the top three things Affirmation wishes to
accomplish in this meeting with the Church?
one more | 4:12 p.m. April 8, 2008
In Sunday's General Conference session, President Monson said to inactive
memebers: "Come back. Come back and feast." He did NOT say,
"Come back, unless you are gay or lesbian." This invitation makes the
LDS Church liable for opening a path for ALL alienated memebers to return to the
flock, including those who have stopped participating due to their sexual
orientation and not their lack of faith.
Anonymous and Trying | 4:16 p.m. April 8, 2008
I have struggled with same gender attraction all my life. The intensity of
these is strongly connected to where I am spiritually. I have learned over the
years where the danger zones are and I keep as far away from them as
possible.
We are told that the struggles we are called to endure were agreed upon in our pre-mortal life no matter what they may be. I have faith that one day these feelings will be taken away if I endure well in this life. Isn't this what the Atonement is all about? Maybe I was given this thorn in the flesh to understand the atonement more fully!
It all comes down to perspective. This life is short compared to the possibilities promised to us in the eternities. I equate it with struggling through a 3 hour exam knowing that you have a lifetime of opportunity ahead with a diploma. You don't walk out of the exam hall half way through because it is difficult!
To those who are confused and are struggling, know that it is possible to enjoy the full blessings of the gospel no matter how you or anyone else may wish to justify their actions.
We are told that the struggles we are called to endure were agreed upon in our pre-mortal life no matter what they may be. I have faith that one day these feelings will be taken away if I endure well in this life. Isn't this what the Atonement is all about? Maybe I was given this thorn in the flesh to understand the atonement more fully!
It all comes down to perspective. This life is short compared to the possibilities promised to us in the eternities. I equate it with struggling through a 3 hour exam knowing that you have a lifetime of opportunity ahead with a diploma. You don't walk out of the exam hall half way through because it is difficult!
To those who are confused and are struggling, know that it is possible to enjoy the full blessings of the gospel no matter how you or anyone else may wish to justify their actions.
LDS SSA Resources | 4:20 p.m. April 8, 2008
For anyone who has faith and hope in the GOspel of Jesus Christ and wants to
find helpful resources for finding solutions to the challenges of same-sex
attraction in harmony with Gospel principles, know that there are many great
organizations with some wonderful people who are willing and able to help. This
would include groups like Evergreen International, North Star, the Matis
firesides, LDS-SSA.Org, Disciples2, Clean-LDS, etc. They are are found listed on
the LDS SSA Resources website on GeoCities and can be found with Web searches.
(And most of the links found on Affirmation's websites are to other
apostate organizations that won't help much with a person's desire to
live the Gospel.)
Despite a lot of remaining misunderstandings among good people, there is plenty of help and there is plenty of hope for the thousands of people who are devoted to the Saviour and His Gospel.
Despite a lot of remaining misunderstandings among good people, there is plenty of help and there is plenty of hope for the thousands of people who are devoted to the Saviour and His Gospel.
My condolances to you | 4:34 p.m. April 8, 2008
"Happiness". But it was the world that ruined your father by not
letting him accept who he was....and it was very sad about about his
"partner" and that he wasn't a good person. How many
heterosexual persons do you hear about on the news that are involved with drugs?
The world has made you combined the "sins" of the world with people
that are gay. That is sad indeed.
Not so different... | 4:34 p.m. April 8, 2008
@ Reed-
"When your brother suffered, what gavest thou him?" Sounds like a scripture I've heard before. The thing is, I'll bet that what you believe about God is deeply rooted in scripture and religious teachings. You may not admit it right away, but if you look deep down to the source, you'll find it and yes, it is important to have a grasp for doctrine. God gave us this so we can come closer to him by learning his will for us. This is how you came to believe this about God only it seems you stopped learning.
Yes, we do need to love all and welcome them to church. But loving is different from accepting actions. My brother has had a drug problem for years. Does he know I love him? Yes. Does he know I disagree with his actions? Yes. Does he know I'll do anything to help him? Yes. Just as I would help anyone overcome their struggles in life.
Church is here as a support group for overcoming sin and struggles and if a homosexual wants help overcoming, I welcome them with open arms. I won't however, lower standards so others won't feel insecure.
"When your brother suffered, what gavest thou him?" Sounds like a scripture I've heard before. The thing is, I'll bet that what you believe about God is deeply rooted in scripture and religious teachings. You may not admit it right away, but if you look deep down to the source, you'll find it and yes, it is important to have a grasp for doctrine. God gave us this so we can come closer to him by learning his will for us. This is how you came to believe this about God only it seems you stopped learning.
Yes, we do need to love all and welcome them to church. But loving is different from accepting actions. My brother has had a drug problem for years. Does he know I love him? Yes. Does he know I disagree with his actions? Yes. Does he know I'll do anything to help him? Yes. Just as I would help anyone overcome their struggles in life.
Church is here as a support group for overcoming sin and struggles and if a homosexual wants help overcoming, I welcome them with open arms. I won't however, lower standards so others won't feel insecure.
Rob | 4:36 p.m. April 8, 2008
The church position will never change. We can reach out to our brothers and
sisters, just like we would any person that has been lead astray by Satan. We
will go after the 1 and leave the 99. We will love everyone, but loving them
does not mean accepting thier sin.
MMP | 4:46 p.m. April 8, 2008
@ One more 4:12 p.m.
He said come back, not come back and will bend doctrine to make you feel comfortable. Come back, repent, and rejoin the fold.
@ Anonymous and Trying 4:16 p.m.
Wow! God bless you brother, may we keep those in your situation in our prayers and reach to give a helping hand.
He said come back, not come back and will bend doctrine to make you feel comfortable. Come back, repent, and rejoin the fold.
@ Anonymous and Trying 4:16 p.m.
Wow! God bless you brother, may we keep those in your situation in our prayers and reach to give a helping hand.
MG | 6:10 p.m. April 8, 2008
I don't hear murmuring either.
What I don't understand is why do they want the church to change anything? If they believe God is running the show, are they petitioning Him for a change? And if they believe this church isn't run by God, but merely men, why do they care what these men think?
BYU has standards - why not go somewhere else if you don't like the standards? If you like to drink alcohol, it's clear you should also choose another school. I, for one, love the idea of a place that still has traditional values.
I do agree that there is room for improvement in how a gay person is treated by leaders. I'm quite certain that a more sensitive approach that doesn't induce guilt and condemnation would better serve people - on all issues. But they aren't likely to get that, since the rest of us can't even get it.
What I don't understand is why do they want the church to change anything? If they believe God is running the show, are they petitioning Him for a change? And if they believe this church isn't run by God, but merely men, why do they care what these men think?
BYU has standards - why not go somewhere else if you don't like the standards? If you like to drink alcohol, it's clear you should also choose another school. I, for one, love the idea of a place that still has traditional values.
I do agree that there is room for improvement in how a gay person is treated by leaders. I'm quite certain that a more sensitive approach that doesn't induce guilt and condemnation would better serve people - on all issues. But they aren't likely to get that, since the rest of us can't even get it.
MrGlass | 6:20 p.m. April 8, 2008
Comparing homosexuality to drug addiction is ludicrous. There is nothing wrong
with homosexuality.
Marriage Laws | 6:24 p.m. April 8, 2008
do not discriminate against homosexuals; they apply equally to everyone. Anyone
may marry a person of the opposite gender, no one may marry a person of their
own gender. Equal treatment for all.
HaHaHa | 6:51 p.m. April 8, 2008
The Affirmation people are crazy. Changing BYU's honor code?? Going to
BYU is not about you expressing individuality, it is about becoming a plastic
person. An automaton that acts with the collective, not a thinking autonomous
being.
They should all seek psychiatric help, not for being gay, but for their inability to recognize the truth and find a new culture to identify with.
Notice the "folks" you want to "hang" with have to be told to love you because they are not capable of recognizing it on their own; the love of Christ does not really reside in their hearts.
Seriously, I hope they all find the peace they are seeking, they are just looking for gold nuggets in the sky instead of the stream of true living water.
They should all seek psychiatric help, not for being gay, but for their inability to recognize the truth and find a new culture to identify with.
Notice the "folks" you want to "hang" with have to be told to love you because they are not capable of recognizing it on their own; the love of Christ does not really reside in their hearts.
Seriously, I hope they all find the peace they are seeking, they are just looking for gold nuggets in the sky instead of the stream of true living water.
CougarKeith | 7:14 p.m. April 8, 2008
I love "Gays", and I love Straight too. I do however hate their Sin.
Being GAY is not a "SIN", acting on an attraction to someone of the
same sex and having "Sex" with them IS A SIN! They need Counseling and
help learning what is "Natural" and "Normal". I am sorry to
those who think it is a "Normal" behavior, but Satan has really pulled
the wool over your eyes. To go meet with this "Gay Group" is perfectly
acceptable, but for them to Admit Gay Members who act on their attractions in a
sexual manner which IS A PERVERSION, is WRONG, and they never will indulge
homosexuals in that capacity, nor allow "Same Sex" Partnerships as
Acceptable. Frankly, God would not either, it would be Contrary to the
Scriptures, and it would be like God Changing His mind. If that were to happen,
wouldn't God cease to be God? For Homophobes, relax, you have nothing to
worry about, although I feel sorry for you. Hate the SIN never the Sinner!
Repentance Is The Greatest Gift Of All!!!
WB | 7:09 p.m. April 8, 2008
I've had several gay friends that died young because of their lifestyle
choice, due to AIDS. They left no posterity behind, no legacy to leave their
grief stricken parents, just heartache. I loved these people, but still wonder
why their "compulsion" was more important than having a family. After
this life ends and each of us is judged, there won't be any
"homosexual activity" allowed, no matter what Affirmation or any other
gay group has to say. The principle of Chastity is still in force and always
will be. The dialogue between Affirmation and the LDS Church won't ever
change the Church's position, but will emphasize that everyone is a child
of God, the Family is Forever and that the Church is there to help those who
have gone astray to realize their true identity and purpose in the eternities.
Lesbian in a Man's body | 7:30 p.m. April 8, 2008
All I know is that if BYU changes the Honor Code to permit sexual intercourse
for gays/lesbians -- I will apply to be a graduate student and check the box
"Lesbian trapped in a man's body".
:)
(this is a joke, but it does show the folly of redifing what is male and what is female, and their proper roles in relationships).
:)
(this is a joke, but it does show the folly of redifing what is male and what is female, and their proper roles in relationships).
Happiness | 7:48 p.m. April 8, 2008
To My condolances to you,
"But it was the world that ruined your father by not letting him accept who he was...."
The world did nothing to my father. He chose his own path for his own reasons. He was responsible for himself. I love my father very much, but to say that the world, or his family, injured him is incorrect. Should we have been happy that he was unfaithful to my mother, or that he contracted a disease while doing so? Should we have been happy when he chose to divorce my mother and leave our family?
My dad was only thinking of himself and his own desires when he did those things.
I'm tired of people who are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. They want everyone to believe that they have no choice, that they can't help what they do. Anyone who does not accept this is an intolerant bigot, a backwards person who needs to come into the enlightened twenty first century.
Homosexuals have as much choice as anybody else. When they take responsibility for their own actions they can repent and be saved like anyone else as well. We are willing to help.
"But it was the world that ruined your father by not letting him accept who he was...."
The world did nothing to my father. He chose his own path for his own reasons. He was responsible for himself. I love my father very much, but to say that the world, or his family, injured him is incorrect. Should we have been happy that he was unfaithful to my mother, or that he contracted a disease while doing so? Should we have been happy when he chose to divorce my mother and leave our family?
My dad was only thinking of himself and his own desires when he did those things.
I'm tired of people who are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. They want everyone to believe that they have no choice, that they can't help what they do. Anyone who does not accept this is an intolerant bigot, a backwards person who needs to come into the enlightened twenty first century.
Homosexuals have as much choice as anybody else. When they take responsibility for their own actions they can repent and be saved like anyone else as well. We are willing to help.
Re: I may be wrong... | 8:10 p.m. April 8, 2008
Yes, you may be. Read what the church has said recently about having homosexual
desires to find out. But then again, you have already admitted that you will
never understand homosexual desires, so perhaps you shouldn't even try.
John Jones | 8:12 p.m. April 8, 2008
I applaud President Monson and the Mormon Church for being open to listening to
the concerns of gay Mormons. A meeting like this can only do good. It is a
positive thing to maintain open lines of communication. I am not gay myself, but
I know some gay Mormons and they have a tremendously difficult cross to bear. To
be Mormon and gay is a tremendous challenge. Anything the Church could do to
show these good people love and acceptance is a positive step. I think the
Church has always cared for these people, but it has not always listened to
them. So this is just a fantastic step in the right direction. Glad to see it!
TO:WBC-Texas | 9:02 p.m. April 8, 2008
I agree strongly. You can't have it both ways. I understand the dialog...
but it really won't go far because the Church isn't changing ANYTHING.
The only thing that might change is a little further instruction on how families
can deal with this in a more productive way and less family-destructive way.
But why I agree with you so much...
You can NOT have it both ways about BYU. The Church is against unlawful(Gods law) sexual activities. The Law of Chastity is binding and to state that you can be a good LDS member who is faithful and spotless AND gay is not possible.
If you allow gays sexual activity at BYU then you must to all couples who are not married. You might as well destroy BYU as it would defy the WHOLE MEANING of the school.
Also assuming that the Church is true, the revelation is true. The School is under direction of the church and therefor is how it ought to be. If the Church is true then it's teachings are and God the father would change no doctrine but try to help others be clean and righteous.
I'm not anti-gay but this just doesn't work.
But why I agree with you so much...
You can NOT have it both ways about BYU. The Church is against unlawful(Gods law) sexual activities. The Law of Chastity is binding and to state that you can be a good LDS member who is faithful and spotless AND gay is not possible.
If you allow gays sexual activity at BYU then you must to all couples who are not married. You might as well destroy BYU as it would defy the WHOLE MEANING of the school.
Also assuming that the Church is true, the revelation is true. The School is under direction of the church and therefor is how it ought to be. If the Church is true then it's teachings are and God the father would change no doctrine but try to help others be clean and righteous.
I'm not anti-gay but this just doesn't work.
TO:WBC-Texas continued... | 9:25 p.m. April 8, 2008
I wanted to add more to a couple points. I really am not trying to sound
anti-gay. I have friend who are gay. I don't welcome their behavior around
me but I don't refuse them.
You just can't be Gay and LDS.. ESPECIALLY to try to petition the Church to change anything. I understand that more may be needed to help families stay stronger with homosexual issues confronting them.
You can't claim to believe in God and his teachings, especially on being gay and choose to be homosexual; while believing you are following God's plan.
The other problem I worry about is that if more people feel it is okay to be homosexual and LDS.. how many people have already lied and gone to temple's during that time? A good number. I believe this number would drastically get worse and this is SO unfair to the LDS families that hold the temple sacred and as a holy and clean place.
People fight for homosexual-freedom all the time and usually criticize those who disagree as intolerant when many just peacefully disagree. It's intolerant to criticize someone for only disagreeing with gay-rights-groups.
I'm not anti-gay but I am pro-family and true Marriage.
You just can't be Gay and LDS.. ESPECIALLY to try to petition the Church to change anything. I understand that more may be needed to help families stay stronger with homosexual issues confronting them.
You can't claim to believe in God and his teachings, especially on being gay and choose to be homosexual; while believing you are following God's plan.
The other problem I worry about is that if more people feel it is okay to be homosexual and LDS.. how many people have already lied and gone to temple's during that time? A good number. I believe this number would drastically get worse and this is SO unfair to the LDS families that hold the temple sacred and as a holy and clean place.
People fight for homosexual-freedom all the time and usually criticize those who disagree as intolerant when many just peacefully disagree. It's intolerant to criticize someone for only disagreeing with gay-rights-groups.
I'm not anti-gay but I am pro-family and true Marriage.
weightless skittles | 10:27 p.m. April 8, 2008
Most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints remember John C.
Bennett, former Nauvoo mayor, and assistant to Joseph Smith. He was found to
have committed adultry and this included ( as historical research has shown)
homosexual activity. Joseph tried to help him repent but, Bennett was unable to
let go of his own wants. Bennett became an enemy to Joseph Smith and the Saints
and caused much of the persecution towards them in Nauvoo. He later joined the
Strangites ( Rigdon's group) and left them as well because of his Sexual
problems. His problems with sexual misconduct and power brought down a man who
had the potential to be another Brigham Young. The Gay lifestyle is a road to
nowhere that keeps going on and on but has no safe and restful destination.
"So much potential" and so much to lose because one cannot be obedient
to that which is most sacred by our Lord; a Godly ordained marriage between and
man and woman.
Worried? | 10:43 p.m. April 8, 2008
Um, it was Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve.
brooke | 11:14 p.m. April 8, 2008
If Christ were walking on earth today I know that he'd be hanging out with
the GLBT community, the poor, those most hated by society - that example is all
throughout the Bible, BOM, etc. God loves everyone, humans do not. God accepts
everyone, people do not. I am incredibly blessed by my GLBT friends and I hope
that one day everyone, the Church included, comes around and simply sees that
it's about love, and love should be honored and revered. If everyone can
understand that then there would be that much less hate in the world. We
certainly have enough hate and anger in the world without this issue being a
part of it.
Moessers | 11:18 p.m. April 8, 2008
A large portion of the world view the concept of homosexuality through one lens:
the lens of what God and the Bible says. In reality, life is and works very
differently then just within the defined confines of traditional Christianity.
Humanity goes on, society continues to exist, grows, flourishes, evolves, but
traditional Christians are stuck within an ancient mind set. They can not get
their head around the concept that gays and lesbians are regular, normal
function humans too.
However, society presses on for the better, archaic thinking is falling away, and thank goodness, homosexuals are living fuller, richer, happier lives as the world embraces them and allows them to live openly in society. We're all better off as the oppressive concepts of older generations fade away.
It will take probably at least one more generation, but being an open homosexual will be nothing out of the ordinary that society will mock, stifle, or oppress. And no, it won't be the end of the world or the apocalypse. Just a fuller society for us all.
However, society presses on for the better, archaic thinking is falling away, and thank goodness, homosexuals are living fuller, richer, happier lives as the world embraces them and allows them to live openly in society. We're all better off as the oppressive concepts of older generations fade away.
It will take probably at least one more generation, but being an open homosexual will be nothing out of the ordinary that society will mock, stifle, or oppress. And no, it won't be the end of the world or the apocalypse. Just a fuller society for us all.
to weightless skittles | 11:31 p.m. April 8, 2008
It's a little sick and obsessive to hold a grudge for 200 years for
something that didn't even happen to you!
Guess what? Joseph Smith also married a 14yo girl and the wives of some of his associates who were still married to their living husbands and the church has moved away from those particular doctrines even though they were supposedly delivered to JS directly from God via an angel with a flaming sword.
You're showing the hard and cruel heart of the LDS. Personally, I find that more repulsive than people loving one another.
Guess what? Joseph Smith also married a 14yo girl and the wives of some of his associates who were still married to their living husbands and the church has moved away from those particular doctrines even though they were supposedly delivered to JS directly from God via an angel with a flaming sword.
You're showing the hard and cruel heart of the LDS. Personally, I find that more repulsive than people loving one another.
A Plea for Tolerance | 12:16 a.m. April 9, 2008
I truly wish that we could all cool down and approach this matter with a bit
more maturity.
To those who feel the need to express their views against homosexuality so vehemently, please take a moment to realize how hurtful words like "abomination, unclean, sinful, dirty, unnatural, disgusting" etc. can be. Imagine having those words flung around in reference to you, no less by your friends, family and fellow churchgoers on a regular basis. I assure you, it hurts deeply. And to be a bit closer to reality, there are a lot of slurs used frequently that cannot be posted here. Stop using them.
Imagine hearing the word 'gay' hundreds of times every day as a synonym for stupid or unwanted. Imagine struggling with homosexuality and constantly being remind that you are different. That if you stumble, you will be cast out. Imagine being afraid you will be found out, even if you haven't committed a sin technically.
This is the norm in our culture. After a decade of dealing with this, one does not adjust to this attitude. It hurts every time. You don't have to change your religion, but at least be thoughtful in how you express it.
To those who feel the need to express their views against homosexuality so vehemently, please take a moment to realize how hurtful words like "abomination, unclean, sinful, dirty, unnatural, disgusting" etc. can be. Imagine having those words flung around in reference to you, no less by your friends, family and fellow churchgoers on a regular basis. I assure you, it hurts deeply. And to be a bit closer to reality, there are a lot of slurs used frequently that cannot be posted here. Stop using them.
Imagine hearing the word 'gay' hundreds of times every day as a synonym for stupid or unwanted. Imagine struggling with homosexuality and constantly being remind that you are different. That if you stumble, you will be cast out. Imagine being afraid you will be found out, even if you haven't committed a sin technically.
This is the norm in our culture. After a decade of dealing with this, one does not adjust to this attitude. It hurts every time. You don't have to change your religion, but at least be thoughtful in how you express it.
Stop Demonizing Gays | 12:26 a.m. April 9, 2008
The time has long since passed to stop demonizing gay people. Whether they act
on it or not, homosexual men and women should not have to live in fear. We all
need to emphasize the "loving the sinner" part. Heaven knows we have
spent enough time "hating the sin."
To those who think their rights are being stifled for opposing homosexuality, remember that here in Utah, you are the supermajority. Your beliefs are not in danger, but the way you speak causes great damage to those around you who may be struggling with how to cope with their homosexual feelings. Why would anybody want to affiliate with the church after hearing the way most of us talk about homosexuality? Emphasize the love people. God will handle the rest.
To those who think their rights are being stifled for opposing homosexuality, remember that here in Utah, you are the supermajority. Your beliefs are not in danger, but the way you speak causes great damage to those around you who may be struggling with how to cope with their homosexual feelings. Why would anybody want to affiliate with the church after hearing the way most of us talk about homosexuality? Emphasize the love people. God will handle the rest.
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