Dialogue will be unprecedented move for church
Will an alternate lifestyle other than what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints believes in hope to be a part of the celestial kingdom? I feel for
these members, but we all are required to live a certain standard that the bible
teaches in order to hope for eternal life. The church will not conform to the
gay lifestyle and accept their way of life, or recognize it as being normal.
Think of your own parents. Had it not been for a Mother and Father you would not
but I just can't understand the desire to change the honor code at BYU. It seems
so clear to me that if you don't approve of it, you shouldn't apply there! It
really is that easy. Gay, straight, whatever - the honor code is what it is and
individuals who seek a personal exception to the rules are arrogant in my
opinion. Other than that, I hope this will be the beginning of
From the article:"Part of the reason Affirmation does their work is
to build bridges," Larabee said. "This is definitely the building of a bridge
.."Might this turn out to be a bridge to the "great and Spacious
I hope that Affirmation is not expecting the church to change its position on
same sex unions. The Lord has not changed his view on the matter and neither can
His church. The fact that church authorities have reached out to Affirmation is
a sign that each of God's children is loved but to return to full fellowship
will require adherence to the same moral standards already in place. Those
standards were set in eternity and will not change!I encourage any who are
involved in same-sex relationships to end those relationships and set his/her
life in order. I wish you well in your efforts to do so.
I'm always amazed at the high number of gays in Salt Lake City. Many of them
seem to be from small towns in the rural west. I think they come to SLC to get
a way from the small town attitudes toward gays.
Any thoughts that this might change the LORDS stand on homosexuality are
completely wrong. He stated his position on it several thousand years ago
through his prophets in the bible and continues to do so today. This will be an invitation to get help...and nothing more.
Enter commentI hope that the LDS does not go down the same path as some
Protestant churches. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever! Our
Lord calls this SIN.Please do not recognize homosexuals as "another
lifestyle".Reach out to gay people on an individual basis.I was once a member of
a church organization that recognized this garbage! I left it! I am not LDS, but
I have always counted on my LDS brothers & sisters to do the right thing on
matters of morality.
And what exactly is there to discuss? Make your choice, take the
consequences that come with the choice.
Changing the Honor Code? I wouldn't hold my breath. I think it's helpful to
reach out, but I think Affirmation is over-reaching here. I'm just glad I'm not
the one having to make these decisions.
The Church's central doctrinal teachings regarding homosexuality seem clear.
Marriage is the legal union of one man to one woman. The Church will never
recognize or condone gay or lesbian marriage, regardless of eventual rulings by
courts or legislatures. In terms of gay sexual activity, the Church will never
change its doctrine on sexual activity outside of marriage--whether gay or
straight. So where does this leave gay or lesbian people in terms of their
relationship to the Church? If I, as a straight male, commit fornication with a
woman, and the Church takes disciplinary action, does that mean I am being
persecuted? I have no idea what the LDS gay community, or Affirmation, is trying
to achieve . . .
I am not sure this group understands the position the church must endorse in
relation to doctrine--to excuse inappropriate conduct is not the answer--though
kindness, unconditional support is a must for everyone; principles cannot be
changed when political views temper when moral issues are present, you cannot
have a religious belief developed by political vote.
Does anyone know what "change" to the BYU Honor Code they want to make? This article should clarify that sex between unmarried people (regardless of
sexual orientation) is a sin in the Church. Since it's not legal for gays to be
married, they must remain celibate.
It's about time this happened. The church should put into practice what it
preaches in its general conference, to reach out, to give respect, and to
welcome diversity. The two groups may never come to an agreement about
fellowship or activity in the church and its temple ceremonies but at least they
can establish a relationship that could benefit both groups. It
doesn't matter if being gay is a choice or people are born that way, the fact is
they are here, they are human, they have positive things to contribute to our
society and sweeping them under the rug has been done long enough. It's time to
change things and I'm glad to see it happening. BTW, I'm a straight
white male Mormon member and I think it's great to be opening dialog instead of
closing it. Considering who Christ associated with when he was here
at the meridian of time, who's to say he won't meet with Affirmation first when
he comes again. He is the God of all people and He seems to advocate for the
oppressed and against the well established.
Talking and listening is good for both groups. I would be shocked if it lead to
any approval of gay sexual relationships or activities by the Church. Hopefully
it will lead to more kindness and respectful understanding between those that
are have different ideas. One thing I am sure of is that calling an evil action
'good' does not change the true nature of the act no matter how many say it or
how loud or earnest the voice.
I am a little surprised by all this murmuring. This is definitely big news and
a testament to President Monson's gift of revelation and foresight. If the
prophet feels that now is the time to meet with this group, then members need
not question it. Bigotry disguised as 'righteousness' is the very thing that
our Savior challenged. Love One Another.
I don't believe there will be any changes in policy as a result of this meeting.
I do hope WE as a people and culture learn how to better LOVE everyone
regardless of personal choices. The fact is that we all sin and need the
redeeming power of the Lord.It is sad when a child is disowned by
their family because of choosing a homosexual lifestyle. Yes, I said choice.
Many of us seem to be predispositioned to ideas and behavior that are against
the will of the Lord. Some struggle with drugs or alcohol, others with
selfishness and pride (from the top or bottom), others desire to committ
adultery (in thought or deed) and others are lazy. My point is that we all have
our own challenges. It is our job to invite ALL and love ALL and
it's the Lord's job to judge. It is not our job to tell someone they need to
change - that only puts a wedge in a relationship. However, if someone has the
desire to change we can offer support. There is a phrase for what we should be
striving for - it's called unconditional love.
I think what Affirmation is referring to re: The BYU Honor Code, is when a few
years ago, the Church said it treated Gay members no differently than their
heterosexual counterparts, that they are to remain celibate until marriage (of
course, never mind the Church went to great lengths to make sure gays never had
that option). What happened was that some gay students were kicked out merely
for showing affection towards one other (walking hand-in-hand, a
kiss)--something that would never happen to the heterosexual students there.
Welcoming diversity is not and never should be accepting or condoning sin.
I'm glad to hear that there will be some dialogue between the two groups. It
may not resolve a whole lot but respectful disscusion never hurt anyone. However I'm surprised to hear theyre going to start it off with asking
for allowing open unmarried sexual relations into BYU! I think everyone knows
the answer to that already.
It doesn't sound like murmuring to me. In fact, I'm pleasantly surprised at how
intelligent these comments have been. Consensus seems to be that the Church will
not and cannot change its policy, it would cease to be the Church by altering
its doctrine on eternal families, but that we all can be more understanding and
well said, CTR.
. . . it is for so many people to speak out for Church leaders and pretend to
know what those leaders should or shouldn't do with respect to the request to
sit down and discuss a matter that impacts the lives of so many of our brothers
and sisters. I'm pretty sure church leaders will figure this one
out without the help of all those who want to step forward and "steady the arc."
I know Fred Riley and Harold Brown personally. These are great men to discuss
the topics at hand. They have a lot of experience and wisdom and bring a lot of
common sense to the table. Well done, whoever made this choice.
In his message, this Sunday, President Monson reached out to members who have
left the church. I am so happy that he has followed through to include the
faithful gay and lesbian community. Demonstrating this by accepting Gay LDS
invitations to meet with LDS leaders. I am a member of the LDS church myself and
am so glad to see this! I am over joyed because I have so many friends whom are
gay and lesbian and I love them! We are often enraged when we are found as
seperate when our hearts are so together! I have always loved and
trusted the judgement of President Monson, even prior to his new role. As long
as I can remember his gentle and understanding manner was amazing and comforting
to me. It would be to his nature to by pass the barriers and teach us love and
acceptance of all people. Unification is healing and our strongest
defense against the evil of this world. I am hopeful for changes in our
traditions. Because these modern times demand a change of views and can be the
answer to the worlds ever growing war amongst ourselves.
Love the sinner, but hate the sin! And, regardless of what the world thinks,
homosexuality IS a sin, which strikes at the very foundation of the family. But, all are sinners, and any dialogue between the Church and these groups is
good. It fosters better understanding, between the two parties.I know,
however, that the Church will continue to stand for traditional families,
values, and lifestyles, with a married, male father, female mother, and their
Sometimes we become so open minded that our brains fall out.
After the comments said from conference yesterday, I feel that if the church
changes it's mind and accepts this, then what else will it accept in the future?
That just living togetther and having children will be ok also? What has
happened to our morals? I understand our world is changing but do we have to
change every thing we believe in to accomodate others? God did not put two men
together or two women together, he put a man and a woman together and thats how
it is supposed to be, now and forever.
Whatever happened to loving your neighbor? I thoght that your prophet preached
tolerance and love, but all I see here is prejudice and hate. You all ought to
I find it interesting and quite telling, that on the same day where a story on
conference from the new prophet telling members that they need to be more
tolerant of other people's beliefs that this story show so many people willing
to do just the opposite. I don't see where they plan on asking the church to
change their doctrine in any way, instead they are just asking for a chance of
open and honest discussion. Why are you so scared of this? Why are you people
so afraid of us gays? Trust me, we have more to fear from you. If you believe
that the church really is true, then why are so many of you so upset by this?
Where is your faith in your church leaders to do the right thing? Guess not too
many of you actually LISTENED to what was said at conference.
I find it interesting that many posters choose to lead with the "sin" aspect of
this dialog rather than leading with love. Thank goodness these posters are not
the Prophet, or God.I also find it interesting that people will
immediately choose to judge a situation/person but then quickly remove all guilt
off themselves by saying "I'm glad I'm not the one to judge" or "But I have my
own issues too."However, I applaud those posters that focused on the
love and hope aspect of this exchange between the Church and Affirmation. I'm
sure there will be good that comes out of it.
It seems over the years as I encounte people with problems, all of us have them,
one things is constant. It depends on whether or not you act on these
inclinations. Whether it be physical abuse, drug abuse, alcoholism, child sex
abuse, anger issues, work-a-holics, homosexual feelings, etc. our challenge in
life is to overcome these tendencies and to become stronger and better people.
I have worked with and known people in each of these categories. Some "put off
the natural man" and have become better people, others have determined to give
into these feelings and have not become better people, yet. Regardless these
feelings, tendencies, "addictions", are still wrong and inappropriate. They are
all still sins to be overcome.
TruLDS | 8:50 a.m. Apr. 7, 2008"Love the sinner, but hate the
sin! And, regardless of what the world thinks, homosexuality IS a sin, which
strikes at the very foundation of the family.But, all are sinners, and any
dialogue between the Church and these groups is good. It fosters better
understanding, between the two parties.I know, however, that the Church
will continue to stand for traditional families, values, and lifestyles, with a
married, male father, female mother, and their children."
I imagine the discussion from the Church's point of view will focus on this
revelation. I agree that discussion can be valuable, but the stated view of the
Lord is fairly clear (yes I did say the Lord, not the Church, because if you
believe the Church is true, you literally believe it is being led by the Lord
and revelations such as the Proclamation on the Family are the Lord's teachings,
and if you don't believe the Church is true than you really don't have much to
say regarding its doctrine or policies since you deny the Lord leads it anyway).
President Monson said that we are in a war against sin. That the commander of
the right is the Lord. Given that, I am certain that whatever the Church is
attempting to do (in this case in particular) will be in that context.I trust President Monson because he trusts in and has faith in the Lord.
I imagine the building of a skybridge to bring together productively two areas
of thought with places of beauty along the way to ponder and enjoy the journey.
I'm not afraid of you as a person and I'm very tolerant of you people and I will
be amongst the first people to say that bashing others because of their
lifestyle etc is absolutely wrong. Just remember though that the Church is not
going to change its doctrinal beliefs and teachings to stray away from
traditional family values. Sorry to be blunt but that's just how it is...
"Sometimes we become so open minded that our brains fall out."Sometimes our minds are so locked up they don't work. And sometimes our
hearts are so righteous that they're not much good for caring for our fellow
The report I read indicated that the expectation was that the church should
change with no attitude of change in "The Group" Let's be open-minded and
subject to change where change is possible...On both sides...
I wish this meeting all the best. I hope and pray that those who need a meeting
like this will seek first to hear counsel from the Lord, and not to counsel the
Lord. God loves His children. He seeks to help all who are willing to obey
Him. If we are humble enough to know God's will--sometimes given directly to us
through His servants--He will always work out a better plan in our lives than we
would otherwise grant ourselves. I hope the individuals calling for this
meeting are sincere in their desire to receive help at the hand of God's
servants. I hope they are ready to not only hear but also receive the word of
Can you show me where it says that this meeting is about asking the church to
change it's doctrine? It clearly states the opposite, they are NOT asking for
the church to change it's doctrine, but wants to discuss other topics. And I
can handle blunt, just not hypocricy.
There is more the "gay individual" then sex, just as there is more to my
relationship with my wife then sex. It seems that many of the comments above
feel that homosexuality is ONLY sexual and therefore a sin. Perhaps being "open
minded" and engagning in "dialogue" is good in terms of learning more about the
individaul and how to understand their life experience so as to be able to show
appropriate support and help. This doesn't mean the church has to condone sexual
activity between same-gender individuals. Many of those members of
the church that struggle with SSA are faced with the difficult question of "how
do I find meaning and satisfaction (non-sexual!!!) in the church?" When others
discover their struggle, they are abandoned, shunned and treated as figurative
lepers. Being rejected by the church and left alone, they may turn the other
direction. While I recognize this is not the case for all, many (I
am a counselor and have worked with several) would gladly follow the teachings
of the church, IF the members wouldn't treat them so poorly. In view of
President Monson's plea yesterday, we should be more accepting and supportive.
What I find sad is that members of Affirmation don't just leave the church
altogether. I know it's not easy - believe me, I know. But who needs the
self-torture? Spirituality also exists outside the organized religions that
continue to condemn homosexuality. Religions of all sorts do this without a
thought to how desctructive it is, or how far away from the actual teachings of
Christ. No religion has a monopoly on the Law of Love. In the majority of
comments posted here there is some claim to speak for "the Lord". Could anything
be more arrogant? Who needs this kind of company when the entire thinking,
scientific, rational, and truly Christian world accepts you?
I agree with you 100%. BOTH sides need to be willing to have an open discussion
and be willing to listen or it will be a total waste of time.
Thank you...people like you give me hope that the church isn't filled with
hateful, self-righteous people. YOU GET IT...AND I THINK THAT IS
I think it's funny how gays pull out the intolerance card and attempt to shame
Church members by quoting our leaders on issues of tolerance. I especially love
the line "guess not too many of you actually LISTENED to what was said at
conference". That's rich. If YOU actually listened to what was said at
conference, you wouldn't want to act out on your same gender attraction, you
wouldn't seek for the church to conform to your twisted standards, you would
seek to be obedient. Now, really, who isn't listening?
When my 15-year-old son came out to me three years ago, my whole world came
crashing down and the church I have loved all my life suddenly became useless in
seeing me and my son through this crisis. My hope is that a dialogue between
Affirmation and the church will lead to the church offering more support to
families in our situation. It's long overdue!
RE:To Interesting | 9:34 a.m. Apr. 7, 2008"Can you show me
where it says that this meeting is about asking the church to change it's
doctrine? It clearly states the opposite, they are NOT asking for the church to
change it's doctrine, but wants to discuss other topics. And I can handle blunt,
just not hypocricy."Let see, what's in the minds of the people
sitting across the table from the LDS Church Representatives: "you need to
accept us for who we are and should be freely allowed to express ourselves."Would the Church accept that? I don't think so. I can see To
Interesting's point here Interesting. I don't think it was hypocrisy in my
The church would be more likely to allow members to drink and smoke before
allowing gay, lesbian and transgender men and women into the temple. BYU would
be more likely to give up their spot as "stone cold sobber" than to change for
the gay agenda. It's true we should never look down upon them and always
welcome them as people but this is a religion, not politics. You can talk all
you want but as has been said above, a sin is a sin. We never keep anyone from
coming to church. It's funny because this issue is one of the only issues the
church has taken an official political decision on and activly campaigned
against. Don't think that will change.The Lord loves but he will
not pander to the gay agenda. "If the Lord be God than follow him!"
It's wonderful that the Church is meeting with this group. There's nothing to
be gained by ignoring them. There's everything to be gained by listening and
trying to be more understanding of the challenges gay people face.No, the Church does NOT need to change its standards in any way, including the
BYU Honor Code. Nor will they EVER do so as a result of this meeting. Not
gonna happen, folks--nor should it. But individual members of the Church CAN
greatly benefit, whether or not they choose to recognize it, by learning more
understanding of and sympathy for the challenges homosexuals face. THAT'S THE
PROBLEM. THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO LISTEN.I'm an active, straight
Mormon with a gay cousin, good bisexual friend, and several other past and
present gay colleagues. No, their lifestyle is NOT correct. However, I
definitely wish more people understood what they *really* think and feel. They
may not have chosen wisely, whatever was in their power to choose--but they
never stopped being children of God. Our unrighteous judgment, NOT endorsed by
the Savior, hurts rather than helps them.
who have suffered long in their efforts to remain sin-less while struggling with
same-sex attraction. Of course, none of us is sinless and so we should all be
very sensitive to any discussion about sin. And, there are many single church
members who have remained celibate rather than marry, for example, because they
choose that path towards righteousness. Have we included them enough? Or
maginalized them? Have we recognized they are doing the best they can, or made
them feel inadequate because of their "singleness?" Have we put our arms around
them, and remembered who will ultimately judge each one of us for our actions
and the intents of our hearts? Do you remember what Pres. Eyring said at Pres.
Hinckley's funeral? [paraphrased -- with a finger on his chest -- "Hal,
what are you doing for those who are atruggling?]Is there
something to talk about here? Seems like it.
Diversity=DivideNot the way to go.Let God be their
judge, I don't want to be.
You said so much that I wanted to say as well. So many cannot imagine how
difficult it is trying to stay faithful to the gospel in a culture that doesn't
tolerate you. Would you want to stay somewhere where people constantly called
you a sinner, even though you adhere to the teachings of the church? I think
what Affirmation is trying to do is open dialog so that the general church
membership welcomes homosexual members who choose to follow the gospel. On a
side note, shouldn't church be a place for sinners? Shouldn't all who are trying
to live a good life be welcome, regardless of who they are? We all need to feel
like we belong.
So many of you are jumping to conclusions that are completely implausable. The
church agreed to a meeting to where it can "help". The church is not going to
change its policy (doctrine) on this subject regardless of how many meetings are
held. This is a time and place to better understand points of view, not change
fundamental elements to the church. As an active member of the
church, I applaud the concept of a better understanding between the groups, but
beyond that, core doctrine will not change.
If a dialogue between the LDS Church and Affirmation occurs, I would hope that
Family Fellowship (a support group for families of Gay/Lesbian/Bi-sexual
members) will also be included in the conversation. As members of that group, we
have struggled for years hoping for a shred of recognition by church officials
for our sons and daughters, and we sincerely hope that the church will
eventually recognize the reality of homosexuality and other aspects of
biological diversity in our families. Their failure in the past has caused
untold suffering in families of homosexual children. I speak from experience.
Was a great help for me in understanding the church's stance on LDS homosexuals.
I urge you to read it, I believe it was in the October '07 issue??? He stated
that members with same-sex attraction may be active and hold temple recommends
as long as they are not participating in a sexual relationship outside of
marriage. The Same standard that every other member in the church is held to.
The Family Proclamation states that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman. The
LDS Homosexual will face many choices in their life, just as the straight
homosexual will about love, relationships, and intimacy. If Celestiality is the
goal, the child of God will meet the standard that is set no matter what
appetites, habits, etc they will need to overcome.
I agree with the above statements stating that this is not a doctrinal issue.However, I think there is much that can be done in the way homosexual
tendencies are handled in the church. I come from a family that experienced sex
abuse by a trusted member back in the late 70's. The way it was handled was
simply atrocious and damaging. It was largely because the way sex abuse cases
were handled in the church had not been developed, and nobody seemed to know
what to do. I believe a similar process must occur with dealing
with homosexual cases in the church; not to condone or accept the practice, but
to provide help, support, and realistic understanding of what the rest of a gay
person's life in the church will be like.
RE: more to the equation and Blake.I agree! and I wish people would
put this article in context that it is about a DISCUSSION not conversion.
Understanding people is needed to love them. Thank you for voicing
your belief that not all LDS are like those described above. Hopefully after
this weekend, more people will focus on loving people not converting them.
If Latter Day Saints are to carry the gospel message to all the world,to all
people,to all cultures,to all societies,to all life styles,then we as Latter Day
Saints need to have open dialog with all of the above. Are we going to continue
to say I cant share the gospel with you because you are gay. Share the gospel
with your gay friends,invite the Holy Ghost into your conversations with your
gay friends and allow Hevenly Father to perform the mircle needed.Someone said
in conference 2 people can perform mircles when one of them is God.Our
missionaries go forth without fear. We cannot and will not fear the direction we
need to go with our gay brothers and sisters.If the prophet says to do it, then
I think the most basic understanding that is sought by gay members (and gays
generally) is for others to acknowledge that people don't choose their sexual
orientation. If we accept this, then the standards of the Church would seem to
require celibacy from these members. But there is little room for single and
celibate members in the church (of any orientation), and almost no role for them
to play. A member who is open about being gay-even if celibate and
trying to live the principles of the gospel-faces enormous ostracism in most LDS
wards and even hostility in some cases. This is because the issue remains such
a taboo and is almost never discussed in the church other than in terms of
behavior-the sin. The church could teach members that gay people didnt choose
their orientation and encourage members to be respectful and supportive of
them, and of other single members. This would be a very welcome outcome of this
As a gay LDS man and not a member or believer of Affirmation, I am glad that
they are speaking with some leaders. No one understands how it feels to sit in
Sunday School or Sacrament meeting and have someone make a comment that God
doesn't allow gays in his Church. I did not choose to have these feelings. I
have not chosen the lifestyle, yet, when people learn of my struggle, I am not
accepted. Maybe, just maybe, having the leaders accept those who are challenged
with same-gender attraction will help others accept me also. And there are
support groups for those who want to remain faithful to covenants that have been
made and live according to the values and doctrines of the Church. It is just
that they do not scream and yell about it.
There is a reason for this meeting. It is evident in the first 10 or so posts on
this thread. I hardly doubt Affirmation is hoping to change the minds of leaders
in the church. I am confident the dialogue between the groups will inspire our
leaders to speak directly to those who fail to Christlike love. My anger at some
of you right now is beyond words. Do you know the anguish of a mother and father
(and sister) dealing with a homosexual brother wanting to end his life? Do you
sit up at night praying he will be alive another day and hope he realizes God
loves him as much as all of those pointing fingers and calling him a sinner?
Shame on many of you for callling yourselves representatives of Christ. He would
never deal with his brothers and sisters with words like yours. A
smart man will humble himself before God does it for him. I suggest you get to
praying and ask for understanding in how to exemplify Christlike love. Many of
you are unaware.
Hey guys, why not read the article before commenting? No one is asking the
church for gay marriage or the right to have gay sex in the common areas at BYU.
They're asking for equal coverage under the honor code (reasonable!) not
special exceptions. They're also asking for a review of the church's procedures
in treating homosexuality - that is using the most up-to-date and effect means
(also reasonable). Lastly, they want to make sure there are certain procedures
in place so that a child coming out of the closet doesn't break up a family.
(very reasonable). but go ahead and wave your 'GAY THREAT!' flags.
This meeting is good. I think both sides will gain a perspective, even though
"affirmation" may discover that the church is also opposed to any sexual
realtion outside of the covenants of marriage whether its a homo-sexual or
heterosexual. "Affirmation" will be grossly deliusional if they think the church
will relax its standards for the gay and lesbian community but continue to
condemn the adultery and fornication community.In addition the
church has already taken a strong and clear stance about same sex marriages. The
church will reach out to help, but will not be persuaded to excuse behavior
condemned by scripture.
I could have sworn I heard Pres. Monson warn about the "halloween mask of
tolerance" and that behind it was only deceit and unhappiness. (Priesthood
session Saturday Night) Condemning immoral behavior while caring about the
sinner is not bigotry. They are simply leading a life that will ultimately lead
them to unhappiness for eternity. Take a look at Isaiah 3:9 and then look at
Isaiah 5:20. Isaiah nailed our day right on the head. We should love the
sinner, pray for them, help them, but we should never tolerate wickedness.
Seems to me that "simply talking" is way overdue. My brother hung himself many,
many years ago, and I truly wish anyone in the Church had been willing to talk
The church began addressing these issues some time ago. Nearly a year ago the
church issued the pamphlet, "God Loveth his Children" which addresses the issue
of same gender attraction. Also, the letter sent to Affirmation stated they are
interested in ways to "help" not change Church view or policy. The best way to
love an individual is to help them. That does not mean you have to change your
own stance in order to do so. They church has always been interested in ways to
help those in need, wether it be with this issue or with the numerous others we
all suffer from. There are those that take offense, or state that the Church is
trying to "change" them. Well, to be honest, that is the case with all of us. We
all have temptation and shortfalls that the Church is there to help us change
and improve upon. That is the point of the Gospel and organization of the
Church. To provide support and fellowship for all of us, regardless of who we
How is this any different than the way the Church used to look at mixed
marriages? Society changed and the Church changed. Society is once again
changing, better get used to the idea that the Church could also change, too.
Of course, not for at least another 20 years, so we should have time
to adjust. "Talking" is simply the first step.
Some interesting comments, some good, some hurtful on both sides. Dialoque with
the Church will be good, doctrine will not change, I don't think that's the
intent of the dialoque. A quote to think about.....Pres. Monson said in the
priesthood session this past weekend (not exact, what I wrote in my notes), "Sin
many times wears the face of tolerance" Something to think about in this forum.
"Disappointed by many", no one should be casting shame on anyone, that just
doesn't help at all. It only causes contentious feelings.
In general, i find accusing someone of being self righteous is pretty self
righteous. Condemning the hypocrite for not being tolerant is
then you can all play arm-chair prophets..i am sure wisdom will lead the way on
this one. the struggle goes on in this journey, if your perfect then you had
better get ready to enter the next world. let it be as i have faith that your
leaders are men of wisdom. they at least are listening to others who's struggle
made need the touch of the master's hand!
The Church is sympathetic as a group to the Gay condition....now can we
"ISOLATE" the gay gene and give mother's the choice of a gay child vrs a
hetero? That day will end the gay debate!
If heterosexuals can't be sexually active at BYU, why should homosexuals better?
I think understanding another group is always a good thing. This is a complex
issue and I think dialogue is helpful for both sides of the equation.
Neither group is "allowed" to be sexual active at BYU, the difference is that
the heterosexuals can show affection (hand holding, a kiss) the homosexuals
What would Jesus Do? If Jesus cared one way or the other about BYU, he'd
probably say, "Love one another as I have loved thee." I don't recall Jesus
excluding anybody.It is good to know I live in a State where
everybody knows what God thinks. How does the rest of the world survive?
OK DN, I am toning my 4th attempt down so I can hopefully get my comment in past
your iron curtain. But you know I love ya - The reality is that a
change in policy is light years away from even being considered. Even if rock
solid science showed that homosexual attractions derive soley from genetics,
change or acceptance would still be years away. For years, members were
encouraged to show love and acceptance toward their black brothers and sisters
but change only came when outside influences boiled to a certain tipping point.
And that change was way behind most of societie's tipping points on that issue.
This country is way to conservative in it's stance toward
homosexuals for the Church to even begin to feel outside pressure regarding it's
stance toward gays. I believe there is genuine desire by leaders that gay
members be treated better but policy change is way way in the future if at all.
Are you kidding me? If you honestly think that isolating a gene would end
homosexuality, that means that you believe it is naturally occuring which
validates the argument that they are "born that way..." Also, when and where
has the church been sympathetic to homosexuals? I must have blinked and missed
You wrote, "Sometimes we become so open minded that our brains fall out."I have been open minded my whole life and I my brain has never fallen
out, nor have I known anyone who have lost their brains as they've pondered and
sometimes struggled with life's great questions.I guess I just don't
get your point?Try this one on instead:God. . ."is more
liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are
ready to believe or receive."And who do you suppose said that? I'll
give you a clue, it wasn't someone on Talk Radio or Cable News. The answer is
in the transcript of the October 2003 General Conference. Now thats
something worth losing your mind over!
isn't that special
This is a nice gesture..and a waste of time. These people seem to think that the
church is going to change its doctrine for THEIR benefit. What kind of people
ask a religion to change for THEM? They seem to quite literally want to pervert
the ways of the lord.
What "decades of silence"?Where is a need to "forge understanding
between the faith's leaders and its gay members"?The Church's
position is crystal clear and has be stated explicitly and repeatedly.What part of "no" is hard to understand?
Last time I checked, God hasn't popped in on Oprah or made a grand appearance to
let everyone know what s/he/it thinks about homosexuality, suicide bombers, or
what their food of choice is. I figure that there's a lot more to God than what
people on this board or people in general give her/him/it credit for being. As
for the Bible being the word of God...sorry, but I think a lot has gotten lost
in translation through the millennia. The path to divinity isn't straight or
narrow. It's as broad and as winding as it could possibly be...just like so many
other things in life. Open your minds and learn to live and love with kindness
and passion and quit worrying about who your neighbor loves. Love comes in so
many shapes and sizes and love is beautiful.
To Sparkes22 Elder Jeffrey R Holland, one of my favorite talks ever. Will people please read the article! They are not asking the church to
change their doctrines, nor their standards. The LDS Church has not even given
a hint of doing so. Just like the Savior would do, they are reaching out to
help those that need it. I am sure if AA or SA were to ask to have a meeting
with the church, the church would do the same as well. Everyone has
problems, some are just more socially acceptable (I doubt very many people are
put on probation in the church for Overeating). Socially acceptable or not does
not mean they need help, or less deserving of it. Notice that the
person Church is sending is someone from Families. The Family
Proclomation is not about to be re-written/revised after this.
OK great Deseret News comment monitor - I am going to do my best on my fifth try
to write something that won't be too offensive or off-topic to post:I read this article and loved it. The editing, grammar and overall flow was
just sensational. Of all the online newspapers in THE WORLD, Deseret News is the
BEST!Now, please take my name off of your bad-list so I can
participate in this discussion - pretty please.
I feel like the Church is in a no win situatuion here. Affirmation claims the
want to start a dialogue, but the first question Melson asks Riley is about the
possibility for change. If there is change members will question the
validity of church doctrin. If the church is not willing to change, there will
be cries of intolerance on the part of the gay mormon community. I
hope we will all remember that tolerance is not acceptance. We can tolerate
people without accepting their opinions, and we can even disagree and argue
against them and still tolerate.
We are directed to marry one wife and to cleave unto HER and NONE ELSE...That's
pretty clear as to which direction our love must go.
I guess your not as prepared as you should be. Asking for understanding and
open communication doesn't equate demands for a change in theology or doctrine.
I must have missed the part in the story that said that the LDS church or any
church was being was being asked to change it's doctrine or beliefs. But isn't
the church asking the gays to change THEIR beliefs to be more acceptible to
THEM?? The only ones who seem to want "to pervert the ways of the Lord" are
those who think they are qualified to speak for Him.
The word hate seems to have replaced "disagree" in many of these forums. If
someone disagrees, they are somehow "hateful" and "Unchristian". When I picture
the word hate...I see the KKK, terrorists flying planes into buildings and the
Holocaust. Hate is an extreme that is unfortunately thrown out too casually when
discussing differences. As to the article, the church is taking a
good step in meeting with Affirmation. Although it is extremely doubtful
doctrines will be changed, understanding the needs of members asking for help
can only be positive.
The church's position on a lot of issues is crystal clear, not just the one's
you happen to agree with. Too bad you can't see that.
but isn't BYU's stance on homosexuality that you do not act on your impulses?
If so then kissing and holding hands would be acting on impulses. Heterosexual
males don't this with each other. In asking the Church to allow that then you
are asking the Church to basically condone homosexuality. If you think that
holding hands and kissing are not acting on homosexual desires you are kidding
yourself. Also, why don't we hear from pro adultry groups? Aren't they
segregated from the church? That behavior will get you exed as quick as
homosexual behavior. I will admit that I will never understand homosexuality.
You basically have a desire that has been condemnded from the beginning of time
and yet you push and push to have it accepted not only by society but by the
I think some leaders need to be more aware and sensitive to this problem. I
know of one member who was discouraged when he took his SGA problems to his
Bishop and the response he got. Thankfully, another Bishop in the area took him
under his wing and now he is married with three kids. SGA is a behavioral
condition that can be changed with desire and a reliance on the redeeming love
of the Savior. To try and quote President Kimball, to free oneself from this
type of sin one must try and open the door even when the knuckles are bleeding
from the effort. It can be done!
Let them meet all they want.
What makes you fools think that BYU would change to Honor Code to allow
Homosexuals to date? They won't even let men grow a beard.
I don't know what changing the Honor Code would do. I personally agree with the
Honor Code and follow it as best I can (and even fit into the BYU culture), but
wouldn't have a problem with it changing. My only concern is for those people
who would engage in such behavior in public at BYU--they would publicly
humiliate themselves and become socially ostracized.I just hope that
if the Honor Code does change, officials will do all in their power to ensure
that individuals who do not conform to what is culturally accepted are treated
with Christlike love and tolerance.
Calling people "hateful", "unchristian", and "intolerant" are what we do when
our arguments are weak.
It's interesting how suddenly the issue is framed as the Church vs. Affirmation,
when I know very few gay members or former members who have any connection to
Affirmation. As a gay inactive member, I've never been to an Affirmation
meeting or a conference and can't imagine that they represent the views of the
majority of active or inactive gay members. Certainly, Affirmation is doing the
best it can to speak for an unrepresented group, but I hope that the Church
doesn't think that it's reaching out to all gay members just by meeting with
Affirmation. The reality is that the vast majority of gay members eventually
recognize that there is not a place for them in the Church and simply walk away
unnoticed and unmissed with no expectations otherwise. If the Church truly
wants to reach out with love to those struggling with this issue, it's efforts
are best directed at the gay young men and young women in their teens and
twenties who haven't left yet and are still trying to reconcile their
attractions with their faith.
I'm an active 'straight' member of the Church. I've served in two different
bishoprics, the stake high council, stake ym president, and several other
leadership callings. I've also had the great opportunity to associate with
dozens of active, less active, and non-member homosexuals over the years. I feel
like I have a good understanding of both the Church's viewpoint and also
understand the plight of our gay brothers and sisters within the Church.The burden these people bare is immense and different from many of the
sins referenced in the above comments (alcoholism / drug use, etc.). Unless you
have a close relative who has lived this, I believe it's difficult--if not
impossible--for the average Church member to grasp and fully understand. Part of the despair these people feel is that they have no hope of
emotional intimacy in this life. I'm not talking about sexual intimacy---but the
emotional connection each of us yearns to have with someone. How can the Church
address this need while still requiring sexual purity?I applaud the
Church's move and am encouraged by the frank and open discussion throughout the
OK, let me see if I understand this: Some men like sex with other men
... Check Some women like sex with other women ... Check God
says marriage is between man & woman ... Check Sex outside of marriage
is a sin ... CheckI think I understand.Just because your gay
does not make me love/not love you any more/less.But stop trying to
make me accept what you do, to help you feel better.AIMHO
I don't understand why so many seem to think the Church's position can not
possibly change. Plural marriage was changed. Blacks and the Priesthood
changed. Why do people think it is impossible for any new revelation to be
received? Didn't blacks receive the Priesthood because President Kimball cared
enough to ask?I don't think there are any principles "set in stone"
except the principle of continuing revelation.
President Monson's best statement of the conference:"In these days sin
manifests itself in the hollowing mask of tolerance. We know what is right and
what is wrong."Homosexuality is a maladaptive trait prevalent in
affluent society. It has been this way for thousands of years. It is a
detriment to the human race AND the plan of salvation. It prevents the
fulfillment of our primary role on the earth, to help in the progression of our
spirit brothers and sisters by providing them physical bodies so that they may
become more like our Father in Heaven. It is one of Satan's many arrows in his
quiver of dispair. Homosexuality is a perversion of one's righteous need and
desire for love and companionship. This meeting is a "thanks for coming,
we know your around, but the eternities will prove your disposition irrelevant
to the righteous designs of God which must and will come to pass regardless of
Satan's attempts to thwart them."
President Monson has stated that he wants to welcome disaffected members back
into the fold. I agree with his efforts and goodwill. However, homosexual
Mormons have to realize that the Lord has one universal standard when it comes
to marriage and morality: Complete chastity before marriage, complete fidelity
after marriage and marriage is a covenant relationship between God, a man, and
a woman. NO EXCEPTIONS! The gay-rights movement wants special,
extra-Constitutional rights which is in reality, reverse discrimination towards
everybody else. You don't get rid of discrimination with more discrimination,
even if it is sanctioned by the government. Thank-you
@ Darthlaurie,"Eat drink and be marry for tomorrow we die..."
Well, good luck to Affirmation. I know some of these guys. I don't know why
they stick with this church... or any church that defames their moral character
for that matter. That is something I will never understand. But they've been
asking for this meeting for, what, 30 years? So good luck.
To Sparkes22:Don't confuse the scriptural definition of "liberal"
with your political views. They are not remotely related.To all
those who have quoted the Savior in arguing that he would accept homosexuals,
remember that to the adulterous woman he replied, "Go, and sin no more." He did
not say, "Go, and be yourself." Yes, he was accepting and understanding, but he
expected (and commanded) change.All of us are required to "put off
the natural man," regardless of what that nature may be. To assume that you
don't have to change is to deny the power of the Atonement. Affirmation can sit
down with representatives of the church all day, but the plan of salvation
(which is eternal and unchanging) will not be different in 5, 10, 20, or 1000
years. What will change is the person who applies the Savior's sacrifice in
his/her life. And that's what everyone needs.
"Open Discussion," If you have served in these important capacities in the
church, you should know better than to use previous church callings as a false
veil of authority. Please treat the responsibilities you have held with respect
and refrain from using them to attempt to legitimize your opinions.
I'm quite sure that part of the reason Pres. Monson is asking members to be more
respectful and tolerant of other's views is because that is the way the Savior
would have us act. After reading many of these posts, it becomes very obvious
that there is a large amount arrogance amongst the membership. Many feel as
though they know all there is to know and that is that. Well, come judgement
day, we may have to whimper to the Almighty that we "though" we knew the gospel.
"Judge not that ye be not judged," is very wise counsel. Let things take their
course and don't be so darned belligerent.
What I cannot understand is the sheer disapproval of people who are different.
Elder Wirthlin taught us that we need to love and understand those who are
different. I can tell you from honest personal experience that NO ONE "chooses"
to be a homosexual. It is not that simple. Gays and lesbians are incredibly
alone in the Church. In they're entire lives they have to secretly cover their
true feelings that God gave to them. And why? Because of hateful bigots in the
Church. Having Affirmation speak to a Church official will be an incredible step
in helping homosexual and heterosexual members of the church to come to a more
full understanding. Consider yourselves lucky you have not "succumbed" to this
temptation. That notion is totally ridiculous.
There have been a lot of alleged "misunderstandings" and "accusations" on these
posts. What does this group expect to happen? Do they want the church to give
better counceling on how to overcome their SGA? Or do they want complete
acceptance and the church to say that it's normal? What do they want and what
do they expect? No doubt as members of the church we need to welcome all to
meetings and ward functions but to what extent do they want the church to help
or do for that matter?It seems that all gay rights groups want their
lifestyle accepted. This being said, it's no wonder why we have gotten some of
the posts we've gotten and doesn't really mean we "hate." Love can be shown
through disapproval, a child drinking underage comes to mind. We disaprove of
the "lifestyle" not the person. God will judge according to anyones "actions"
whether heterosexual or homosexual and the church will not hedge on this point.
"Society is changing | 1:10 p.m. Apr. 7, 2008How is this any
different than the way the Church used to look at mixed marriages? Society
changed and the Church changed. Society is once again changing, better get used
to the idea that the Church could also change, too.Of course, not
for at least another 20 years, so we should have time to adjust.Talking" is simply the first step."You must be living in lala land
to even think "that the church could also change, too. Speaking about "mixed
marriages", I have lots of friends who are mixed marriages but they are man and
woman couples too with "traditional family" beliefs. Society may be changing
according to some people, but the Church doctrines won't change at all cost.
Just to remind everyone about what President Monson said yesterday, "The world
in which we live is filled with diversity. We can and should demonstrate respect
toward those whose beliefs differ from ours." True, we respect those whose
beliefs differ from ours, including beliefs about sexuality. This
meeting is probably an effort to show respect to those who choose the homosexual
lifestyle. At the same time, those living that lifestyle (or finding it
acceptable) should be able to respect the church for its rejection of such a
lifestyle and not call on the church to change. Accept that the church will not
change its position and get over it. For those living the gay lifestyle, if you
never want to change, so be it. We can respect you and you can respect us. Finally, all should remember what President Monson said in General
Priesthood meeting on Saturday, "The face of sin today often wears the Halloween
mask of tolerance. Do not be deceived; behind that facade is heartache,
unhappiness and pain. You know what is right and what is wrong, and no disguise,
however appealing, can change that." Homosexuality is sin. Nothing
will change that. Affirmation, accept it.
my only question is this: Why do people (and this is only one example but this
is a common problem) seek to be part of an organization that has rules,
guidelines, requirements, etc. that are counter to their own? I am terribly
confused by that aspect of this. Would I try to join a Raiders fan club if my
goal is to support the Chargers? Isn't a good share of the grief caused here
avoidable if I don't try to be something I am not?
One can't have his sins and his covenants too!
I shudder when I see attempts to "lobby" a change in doctrine.
black people holding the priesthood was always within the overall doctrine of
the plan of salvation as taught by the church. So was plural marriage.
Homosexuality is a direct attack on our commandment to multiply and replenish
the earth, thus frustrating the designs of God. Black people with the
priesthood only helps accomplish the designs of God and proves his love for all
of his children.
Well Said. I get SO sick of the double standard of the Gay and Lesbian
Community. Because I recognize that your homosexuality is wrong does not make me
homophobic or intolerant. Because I don't pretend I don't care and I don't open
my arms and hug you "even though you are gay" doesn't make me intolerant. Facts
are facts. Any REAL Christian realizes that Homosexuality is not only wrong but
it is a choice and it is a SIN. No sugar coating it. So don't play the
"homophobic" or "intolerance" card because you need to try and justify your
choices. God will be the judge, not me, but that doesn't mean I cannot call you
on the carpet for a SIN! As Simon Cowell would say "Sorry"!
I sure don't hope they think they can convince the Church to accept homosexual
couples and relationships.
It is sad that people - LDSaints or not - need to be reminded to be loving and
tolerant, even of those whose lifestyles we don't agree with. I don't believe
that any doctrine or even policies will actually be changed because of this
upcoming dialogue; however, it seems exemplary to me that the Prophet has agreed
for LDS officials to meet with Affirmation.If we can eliminate (or
at least greatly reduce) severe depression, suicide, the break up of families
and increase our capacity to be loving, then I am all for such dialogue.Some may fear the slippery slope of intolerance --> tolerance -->
accepance --> embrace --> promotion (of that which was previously intolerable);
that progression is not inevitable. As for me, I agree with my understanding of
the Savior's teachings: Love all (that is not the same is: promote all
sinfulness).PS to those who feel that quoting scriptue or expressing
understanding of doctrine is somehow presuming to "speak for the Lord" - it is
not; I invite such to be less critical. This issue is sensitive no matter what
"side" of it one is on.
I hope the church stands firm in it's requirements for all members. If they change it will be just another church.
Very few posters on this blog have mentioned anything regarding hate of the
person or an unwillingness to love and understand the person. Posters have,
however, emphatically declared their understanding of the plan of our H.F. and
their loathing of the sin of homosexuality, regardless of the difficulty in
I hope that every day members can take this to heart and be more kind and
understanding to homosexual members. I know the DN had a great article in one
that is a celibate Homosexual. The BYU stuff,though, will never
happen.This dialogue has been needed for a while. I hope the
homosexual members complain about meredian magazine, that spreads some horrible
hatred at homosexual members.
I'm happy the Church is meeting with this group. I find it a positive, hopeful
act. Talking and understanding are always better choices than silence and
You know, it's not that some are intolerant of those who call themselves gay,
it's that all should be intolerant of the lifestyle. Let's face it, It's wrong
and the individuals who are driven to it should do all they can to suppress it
the same as those who have criminal tendencies should suppress it. When it's
wrong, it's wrong. Repent and be baptized and stay clean...
gays, lesbians,transgenders...it's ALL the SAME... IT IS A
SIN AND AGAINST ALL OF THE LORD'S TEACHINGS AND WAYS!
Many of you make it so absolute, as if you know all about what is in another
person's heart. Well, I am convinced. I don't want to be a member of this Church
Bottom line....Why open a dialog with a "mere" prophet? The dialog needs to be
opened with the one who's commandments they are. Then, learn who this Lord of
Lords is. He created heaven and earth and all that is. Nothing was created
that he did not create. He is omnipotent and knows all that there is to know,
owns all there is to own, including us. A Prophet is but a mere man. Who is
he that he would change the commandments of God. He is just the caretaker of
the covenants and commandments. Go right to the source and bargain and complain
and cajole with the God of Israel. Explain to him that he created you different
and your difference is not the machinations and imaginations of man. Tell him
He was wrong to have repented for making man, when the "different" ones were so
"mainstream" in Sodom that they went about in gangs and raped all that were not
already raped. How very thoughtless of their God. What is earthly
consolation compared to salvation....indeed..exhaltaion.
WOW! i know 2 LDS men who are gay. One lives next door to me, and he keeps it
very quite, and he has not been X'ed from the church yet. I have known several
in the past 30 years of being a member. They are nice guys but have selfish life
Why can't the church change its doctrine? It wouldn't be the first time. The
year I was baptised into the church (1978) was the same year the church made a
major break with its past and began allowing blacks to hold the priesthood.
Apparently it took god that long to get over his racism and see all races as
equal. Now if only he could get past his sexism and homophobia, maybe the church
could join the twenty first century...
I appreciate the dialogue that this invitation has started within the LDS
community. I believe this discussion will help Gay Mormons who suffer so much.
I am one of them. For years I prayed and fasted that God would make me feel
something towards a woman. I longed to be married and have a family. I went to
therapy for many years and to Evergreen and searched the scriptures, the
teaching of the prophets and the advice and counsel of church leaders, family
members and friends. It wasn't until I learned wisdom in accepting
that some things can't be changed in this life and accepting myself for who I am
that the clouds of darkness and despair lifted and I felt the sunlight of day.
I believe that God's light is in the sunshine and that He has a plan for me. I
know he is aware of the efforts I make to obey His commandments and teachings in
every way I possibly can.
Do you think that those struggling with same gender attraction, especially those
in the Church, WANT to feel that way? Many KNOW that to act on those desires
would be wrong and would give ANYTHING to have a normal sexual orientation, but
CAN'T because that's the way their bodies work. Acting on the desires is a
choice; the desires are not.Please understand this. Please.
My partner and I share a monogamous relationship that is very deep and caring.
We pray and study together. We perform service for others in need, we hold
dinners in which active heterosexual church members also attend. We share so
much in common with these brothers and sister and look forward to feeling
comfortable attending church. We don't ask the church to change their stand on
temple requirements, but we just want to feel at peace in attending church and
feeling the doors open not closed. Thanks President Monson for setting up this
Pious, disgusting hypocrites - anyone who says gays are sinful. Hypocrites is
what you are. I pray for YOU.
From the foundation of the world nothing has changed nor it will ever be!Time
and time the prophets has always speak out about this same gender attraction
issues.The plan of salvation will not be frustrated by individual weaknesses and
sinful behaviour however help is always available to families and individuals
who are seeking help.Individuals who wants to persue this issue will need
to take it up with their creator in time to come.
If the LDS church loosens its standards to openly accept the homosexual
lifestyle, then it would have to loosen its standards with pre-marital sex and
adultry, too...I highly doubt that is going to happen. Chastity is chastity
whether you're gay, straight or bi.
I love the fact that President Monson admonished the members to be more tolerant
of others in General Conference. After reading some of these comments about the
church meeting with Affirmation, I think there are some members that need to
pick up the conference issue of the Ensign and read President Monsons talk
again. To those members that wrote in I want to thank you again for strengthenin
my testimony of why I no longer attend church.
Wonderful, I'm glad those of you who no longer attend church have chosen to
express these views on this blog. This merely shows your selfishness and
unwillingness to put God's teachings above your own and as the many examples in
the scriptures show, hold on to your sin above all else. Members love and
cherish you as a son our daughter of God, but will faithfully abide by and
proclaim the teachings of God's servants. These teachings against homosexual
acts are not those of the people of this blog. Do not confuse them with
personal opinion. These are the eternal teachings through the plan of Heavenly
Father. I, a n active church member, welcome you to come and learn of the
perfect truth with other imperfect people. Do not dismiss those speaking the
truth as ignorant or piously confused in order to mask your own selfish desires
and unwillingness to accept truth. Regardless of our individual imperfections,
God's truth is perfect. Homosexuality is a sin. We can and should speak out
against sin. I love homosexuals and respect the good deeds they do, but will
NEVER acquiesce to the legitimization of sin...even though I am not perfect.
Not going to church because somebody else "offended" you is like drinking poison
and hoping the other person dies.
There is just one thing to understand:We reap what we sow.Every "lifestyle" with regards to human relationships has its own reward:Choosing marriage and family has its fruits.Choosing to be single
and not marry has its fruits.Choosing to be part of a homosexual
relationship has its fruits.We each (regardless of lifestyle
choice)just need to be sure and realize that when we pick up one end of the
stick, we pick up the other as well. I heard today of a fellow whose wife
wanted to be "single" once more in order to "play around" after being married.
She became pregnant and now she is married again to another man, having traded
her first husband, home, and two children for another husband, little apartment,
and two more children. She is unhappy now and wishes she had stayed with her
first choice. Could she have seen that coming?Let's each think
ahead and look down the road. Make your choice. It is yours and yours alone.
What do you want in 10, 20, and 50 years? If you want that thing, that goal,
you'll get it. You are the one that has to live with it.
I'm not a homosexual, so no, I don't understand the difficulty of same-sex
attraction. However, I am a happily married man with three children and one on
the way. What I do understand is opposite-sex attraction. Boy, do I understand
it. Do you homosexuals who want not only the Church, but the whole of society
to accept you with open arms understand that most men have raging desires from
time to time to have more than one opposite-sex partner? But guess what, its
against the commandments. Period. I fight with my inner lusts all the time.
Thankfully, I've never given in to them. And I'm a very happy guy. I don't rage
against "society" because I can't act on my desires. Do you think child
molesters should "act" on what they were born with? Are they denied their
"God-given" inner self? I don't confirm nor deny you were born the way you are.
But I believe the scriptures and the commandments are the way. It's not that you
can't live your life the way you want, but the Church and society at large
doesn't have to accept your behavior as equal to heterosexuality. We all have to
Remember that from the restoration of the church until about 20 years ago,
abortion was considered murder and an unforgiveable sin. Now abortion is
accepted in some cases even though it is still the killing of an innocent life.
If it is possible to change an unforgiveable sin, would it not be even more
likely to change a forgiveable sexual sin such as homosexuality? This is what
comes in the belief in a changeable god.
I think Affirmation will be unpleasantly surprised with the words from the
prophet. Obviously, this is an issue, and LDS family services is a wonderful
organization that helps thousands of people overcome hundreds of kinds of
addictions or family problems. However, those who are not willing to help
themselves cannot be coddled. Homosexuality is real, and it can be difficult for
those who wish to live the Gospel standards. Living the lifestyle is a choice,
however, just like living a chaste life is a choice for a strait person. I as a
strait person have to abstain from sex before marriage in accordance with Church
teachings and gays are no different. I can't recall any Church official telling
anyone that if they are attracted to the same gender, they cannot enter the
temple. They can, however, live the Gospel just like me and go anytime they
want. I know several people who do, and I love them. But I think Affirmation
needs to hear that from President Monson's representative. We love and respect
them, but we cannot condone behavior that is not in accordance with Church
teachings, and that goes for everyone.
If homosexuality is a sin, then why can gay people hold temple recommends? It
boggles the mind.And for another brain exercise, reread all the comments,
but substitute mormon for homosexuality and pretend they were written by
fundamentalist christians.Does this change what you think of tolerance?
I do believe that sex between same sex is wrong and that the church will stand
on their doctrine. However, until my sister decided to live with another woman
and raise a family with her, I couldn't see that people who are gay are still
humans. We as a family have learned to love and accept our sister, regardless
of her lifestyle. We hope that someday she will return to the church and bring
her children up with the same doctrines she was raised with. However, until
that time, I am so happy that President Monson is willing to listen and learn
from "gay members". He is not there to judge, and it appears they are not there
to demand. They will just be working together to try to help those in the
community who have been ignored and pushed aside. Good for them!
Folks, tolerance doesn't mean acceptance. I've read so many comments on here
from homosexuals that say they are glad Pres. Monson told people to be more
tolerant as if we are supposed to agree with your homosexual behavior. That's not what tolerance is. Pres. Monson also said, "In these days sin
manifests itself in the hollowing mask of tolerance. We know what is right and
what is wrong."I love each of my 5 children, unconditionally.
However, when one of them needs correcting, I correct them. If one of them
steals, I don't condone their behavior, yet I still love them.I'm
sorry that some homosexuals aren't treated well in their own families and wards.
However, that doesn't negate the fact that homosexual behavior has been
condemned by Christ.I really don't understand how homosexuals sit on
these pages and obviously in their lives and try to justify what they are
doing.Will we next have a group of theives, liars, adulterers, etc.
who want to have a meeting? For what purpose?People have been
counseled to welcome all people. It's not the church, but the imperfect people
in it that need to change. Truth is eternal.
I believe that sex between anyone is wrong.
I truly think that as society becomes more and more accepting of gays, in TV
shows, movies, and possibly even accepting gay marriage, the Church will
eventually have to follow suit. Or else it will be seen as a bigoted and
out-of-date organization that only bigoted out-of-date people want to belong to.
Whether we want to accept it or not, our values and expectations DO
change over time. Dress standards that would be considered "totally immodest"
years ago are now totally acceptable. Blacks DO have the priesthood. Plural
marriage is part of our past, not present. Mixed marriages are now acceptable.
People and attitudes DO change.
Regarding "changes(?) in doctrine:Look back into scriptural history.
At times God permitted polygamous relationships. At other times and with
various other peoples, he did not.At times some were given the
priesthood. It was limited to specific lineages, or peoples. At other times he
did not. In fact, this is the first time in the history of the world (except
for Adam's time) that the Priesthood has been given to all men. Some black men
held it in Joseph Smith's time. I think that it was because of the ignorance of
the people in the 1800's that this did not continue at large.I don't
think God will say:"Okay, don't have kids. People aren't important.
Don't give others a life- yes, that gift you were given."Life is
not about what I want. It is about what I can and could give to others. Quit
worrying about yourself and go to work.Is life about "me," or
In response to "Truth". Perfect! You helped make my point. You judge me and call
me "selfish and unwilling to put God's teachings above my own" without even
knowing me. I know the 30 years that I was active in the church, I was taught
that we will be judged by Heavenly Father but it sounds like that may have
I know this is crass, but I hope it makes my point. I am divorced and I can tell
you that I enjoy having sex with women. However, in order to be Temple worthy
and to keep the Spirit with me, I don't have sex with women. I like the smell of
a nice cigar, but in order to keep my Temple recommend and to keep the Spirit
with me, I don't partake. Nor would I attempt to attend BYU and expect them to
change their honor code so I can have sex with women and smoke cigars and not
feel guilty about it. As a matter of fact, I do things like pray and read my
scriptures and listen to General Conference to help fortify me from breaking
these and other commandments. You ought to try it. It works. Especially if you
want it to work.
1. God loves it when he sees his children born.2. God is happier when he
sees them raised by loving parents.3. We each need to be glad of parents.
It is why we each exist.I don't expect anyone to modify things to
make me or you feel better. Our actions have their natural and eternal
consequences. You can't write your own rules to the Earth Game. Try if it
makes you feel better.For each of us that are alive and exist in
mortal form, we have a mother (woman) and a father (man) responsible for it.
Remember your roots. Give thanks for the man and woman that made you. Give
back in their tradition. It is an act of complete selflessness- and gives back
ten-fold.Oh yeah- but I hear it is REALLY hard. Especially when you
There are people on here that need to deepen their understanding of the gospel
of the church they profess to belong to.Many comments show a shallow
understanding of eternal truths. The comments show that some of us didn't pay
attention too well in Seminary and Sunday SChool classes. It would behoove many
to start hitting the books a little better along with prayer to deepen their
gospel knowledge.The gospel isn't changing folks. You think the
counsel given about homosexuality in the OT and NT are somehow going to be
changed now? No they won't be changed.If homosexuals can get a
deeper understanding of the gospel from this meeting, great.I would
encourage all to deepen their understanding of the gospel. All humans are
children of God and deserve love and respect. No one should be demeaned no
matter what they do.I have many homosexual friends. We have lunch,
dinner, they babysit, etc. We can all get along, but trying to
justify your behavior is just making excuses. We all fall into the same trap for
many of our sins.Christ is the only option for all of us sinner.
Seek Him; Follow Him!
Ever hear the term "they want their cake and eat it too"?
Oh yeah...Some fruits are sweet and the others bitter.Some are pretty tasty now and then become bitter later.Some are
sweet now and sweeter later.Look at the menu and use wisdom
when you order. It is your choice. What do you think was intended by Mother
Sorry 9:31 but God's doctrine has never changed. God's doctrine is the same
today, yesterday and tomorrow.The gospel is eternal, folks. It's
always been; always will be.Polygamy isn't being practiced on earth
right now, but the doctrine hasn't been changed. I'm confident that it will
return again to fulfil the plan of happiness.It's really shocking to
see some of the basic gospel principles are so misunderstood.for
those who cop the "judge not that ye be not judged" excuse...actually read the
whole verse and the few after it, particularly the JST part....To
you I'd say, do you understand, thou shalt not commit adultery/fornication? or
Mark 10 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to
his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more
twain, but one flesh."How do those scriptures get justified away?
I'm truly thankful for my parents. And, I am also thankful for kind and caring
neighbors and relatives who helped raise me, whether they were married or
not.Even people who are not parents can still be very important and
contributing members of society. I really think the world has
enough people that humanity will still be able to carry on, even if not everyone
has children of their own.There are times when it is actually
beneficial to have a few extra helping hands. I don't understand why people
continue to de-value anyone who is not a parent.
As a member of the LDS church (outside of Utah, so I don't see the issues as
often) I'm very happy to see this meeting take place. While there are certain
boundaries that cannot be crossed by the church in opening their arms to this
community it is very important to remember that every single soul on this earth
(heterosexual or homosexual) is a child of our Father in Heaven and should be
treated as such. Those that commit other acts we see as sins do not
face the same retribution and condemnation as our gay brothers. "Love one
another" includes all of God's children and hopefully the two sides can come to
an understanding which will help Affirmation better understand the church's
view...The church better understand Affirmation...and all members of the LDS
faith treat their non-LDS brethren (and sisters) like children of God,
independent of lifestyle.Love the sinner...not the sin.
There is a big difference between forgiveness of sin through the "process" of
true repentance, and forgiving sin through acceptance. Clearly the first is
possible, (see Elder Scott's talk) - the second isn't.
I thought the church believed in modern revelation, isn't that one of the
articles of faith? How sad that so many profess to know God's views. There seems
to be a lot of personal judgement here. I guess modern revelation was ok in
Joseph Smith times, but not now???? I wonder how many of you would leave the
church and lose faith if there was again some modern revelation only in this
area. Was not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood modern revelation???????
It is funny to me that talk of "dialogue" between the two groups instantly
results in the fear, or for some hope, that the church is going to change one
position or another. Anyone out there believe that Affirmation has an open
enough mind to accept any of the church's heretofore official position? Maybe
Affirmation can or should walk away from the dialogue with a greater acceptance
of why the church believes and teaches what it does about homosexuality. My suspicion is that those who support the homosexual agenda will say
"No...and Affirmation has no obligation to do so." This is a double standard
and is why there will really be no true dialogue on this matter.
I find it telling and embarassing that the DesNews edited several
paragraphs out of this AP story before printing it. I would paste it here, but
it's longer than the 200 word limit. Go read it in "the other" paper. It's the
comments of Dr. Rob Killian in Seattle about he was treated as a gay Mormon.
qDo you watch the news? Do you see how much harm your supposed "revelation" has
caused. I truly feel sorry for you. And, I would like to add, polygamy is not
coming back...it's on it's way totally out. Thank Goodness!
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to
change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference!!!
I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive but of you it is required that you
forgive ALL men.
DON'T THINK ABOUT IT , DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT IT!
I'm glad they're meeting. We can believe what we believe, but I hope we can
always at least sit down and talk. Not that policies need to change. But, it's
cool the church will at least meet with them. And not that the Lord needs any
PR, but these sorts of measures are very good for showing people that we are
reasonable. That is, that we'll listen to what people want before we tell them
that we won't give them what they want. Yes. I think it's a VERY positive thing.
Meeting and talking doesn't threaten anyone.
I wasn't born with homesexual tendencies, but I was born with tendencies to be
selfish. When I turned 19, I wanted to hang out with friends in college and do
what I wanted to do, what was fun for me... I didn't want to go on a mission
and serve others, but it was a commandment from the Lord. I did what was asked
of me, and I learned to overcome my selfish desires and learned to love serving
others. People born with homosexual tendencies need to do the
same... If you'd rather be dating/holding hands/kissing/having sexual
relationships with members of the same gender, doing what is "fun" for you, then
you need to look at the commandment and follow it. It may be tough at first to
step away from the "tendencies you were born with," but you may learn to love
having heterosexual relationships as the Lord commanded, just as I learned to
put off my selfish tendencies and learned to love others. Affirmation doesn't necessarily need to have a talk with Church Leaders, they
just need to read the scriptures and do what is commanded of the Lord, just as
church leaders will ask them to do.
I was surprized to see a meeting set by the church and gays, but I think it is a
good thing. I dont think either side expects more than to understand each other
more and to help people act with more understanding toward each other. That is
a good goal in every kind of interaction between people.Since
depression and suicide is a very big issue in both the gay community and in
Utah, perhaps more understanding can help some folks to feel life is worth
living. You can't expect people to be interested in church if they aren't
interested in living and seeking love and happiness in a life.The
Plan of Eternal Happiness is not always the same for everyone, just as people
seek different walks and callings in life. Life would be strange if everyone
wanted the same occupation, the same styles, or the same color home or car. That would look too much like Pleasantville for me. Too black and white
for me. I think a narrow way of living is why half of the church
members are inactive. They decide to live life their own way. To each their
own. Peace, Joy, Love. WWJD. :)
My sister can't get a temple recommend because she doesn't pay tithing. She
struggles with it. She goes on shopping sprees without paying her tithing
first, or her bills or anything else. It's a problem that needs fixed, and she
understands that and accepts the fact that she can't have a temple recommend.
It is very hard for her, but she knows she needs to change, and she doesn't join
a group of other non-tithe-payers to complain to the church about her problems
with keeping the commandments. Homosexuals should do the same. They need to
stop looking for ways to justify their sins. It isn't something biological.
"...and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint." We all have our
weaknesses, but that is the purpose and goal of the Gospel. To help us put off
the natural man, overcome those weaknesses, and find true, lasting happiness
through keeping the commandments. Affirmation should be giving a plea for help
to obey the commandments, not asking for changes in the honor code. "I the Lord
am bound when ye do what I say." Overcome your homosexual weakness, and you
will be blessed for it. Pray, and the Lord will help.
RE: Tithinggood points made about tithing and homosexuality, but I don't
think you or anyone knows whether homosexuality is natural or unnatural. The
only people who really can give the best insight are people who are. I don't
think you know what you know because it's fact. You know what you know because
it has been taught to you, and it says it in some book that you believe in and
place your emotions upon. You and others "know" so many things not because you
can prove them to be factual, but because you "feel" that it is right. While
what you feel is enlightening and great for discussion please understand the
context of your position. I dont have a problem with knowing that Im a
sinner for being homosexual. In fact that is not the reason why I stopped going
to church when I was 16. The reason why I stopped going to church was because
all my friends and people I knew my whole life refused to associate with me
because of my particular "sin". Then the prophet wants to sit and ask for those
of us who have left to come back? once bitten twice shy
I've formed a group just like Affirmation which I've named Adulteration. I'm
going to demand to meet with Church officials so that I can try to convince them
that my adultery (that is, sex outside of marriage) should be recognized,
tolerated, accepted, etc. and that the Church should no longer call my behavior
wrong nor ostracize people like me just because we define myself by my sexual
proclivities and just because we can't obey the Commandments. Adulteration will
stand in solidarity with groups like Affirmation and if a group of fornicators
down at BYU can get themselves organized, then we'll stand with them too and try
to get the BYU Honor Code changed on their behalf. What a wonderful idea
Affirmation has had - let's change the Church instead of changing our own
To: Eastern LDSJust because you know of a 2nd hand story of a gay
man getting married doesn't make you an expert on the topic. I can assure you
that being gay is not a behavioral choice.
it is just a meeting ..it's America...I'm sure the brethren know what they are
doing...while the others of you ...cluck, cluck around.
I am glad the church is meeting with affirmation and I am also glad that the
church won't budge on doctrines regarding homosexuality either. I hope the
church representatives tell them that they won't budge.
I was faithful to the church until I felt that I was no longer safe attending
church. I was faithful to the church until I felt that the members were more
concerned about themselves than others.I know Dave and Olin, we have
discussed the letter in the local DC chapter of Affirmation. All this meeting
is for is to begin an understanding, not to change the doctrine but in how
people are treated. Please don't accuse me of being selfish, it is
not selfish to want to feel secure at church. It is not selfish to be willing
to help one another. I have helped others when I really didn't have the means
to without repayment. I have stepped in and helped when I could afford to. I
have done that which the Savior has taught, to love one another. I
hope that something comes out of it, at least some understanding, but I expect
nothing. I have learned the hard way to expect nothing whether from friends or
family. I only hope that Heavenly Father will help me in times of despair,
otherwise I am alone, I have nothing other than myself.
Goodness! I don't pay "tithing" per say, but I help wherever I feel inclined
(and whenever I can afford it). I don't pay to orgainizations that will use the
money to build buildings because I don't think that is needed as much as other
things. Regarding my gay friends: They are just like you and I in many ways.
Imagine the way you were born didn't allow you to marry the person you loved.
And that being attracted to them was "sinful". Your comparisons do not compare.
Think the way you want, but you must give other people their right to be who
they are and show them respect. It is good they are meeting with your religious
group to help give them this respect.
In the LDS church, they believe tithing is a commandment, as well as the law of
chastity, which prohibits homosexuality. Some people are probably born being
obsessive with their money and not wanting to donate ten percent of it anywhere,
just as some people are born with same gender attractions. The fact of the
matter is, in the LDS church, they are both commandments... If you want to be
considered in good standing with the church, obey those commandments. They do
compare. Everyone is born with weaknesses. Most homosexuals just like to play
the poor pitty party picked on me game... I have a couple of good friends who
struggle with homosexuality. They know they are in the wrong though, and they
are trying to overcome it. They think the whole Affirmation thing is
rediculous... Maybe they should have a talk with Affirmation. If other
homosexuals told them to change and try to overcome their problems rather than
ask to be accepted, do you think it would do any good?
I guess "hogwash" is too harsh a word for the DesNews censors....
Why should I worry about what God thinks about my being gay??? It would seem
that the people on this blog are smarter and more righteous and dare I say
without sin enough to pass judgement on me and the rest of the gay community.
Why should I worry about anything since the people on the DMN website have all
the answers to pass a fair and honest judgement. I feel so much better knowing
that while the Lord might know the true nature of my heart, my fellow man is
better qualified to pass judgement based on their "cherry picking" of scripture.
Now that they have taken care of the gay problem, maybe they will start taking
care of the next offender of the world. Look out anyone who's played football,
the scripture about touching the skin of a pig could be the next "cherry" to be
Moral character is not "defamed" by the Church, it is "defamed" by your actions.
If everyone read the Book of Mormon, there would be a lot less misunderstanding,
all throughout the Book it says we all have fallen, we all are lost, we have
done regretable things, we have no merit, we have no excuses, the law condemns
us all; our very own book says we have all fallen short, but there is hope if
we can keep busy on worthwhile things and keep life simple and clean and full of
life. Sin makes us dumb; yet we have a right to be dumb, except that when we
are dumb we have less opportunities in life.
@ Brain GameACTING on homosexual desires is the sin. If someone has
those desires but refuses to act on them and keeps all the commandments, why
refuse them a temple recommend?You see, it is acting on the sin, if
a teenager has had the thoughts of drinking in high school but has the strength
to say no, he is still worthy to participate in various church activities
including the temple. Same is true with homosexual desires.@
Lesbian Mormon,By all means come to church and yes, it is the
members duty to accept you as a child of god. However, knowing what you know
about the church, if you flaunt your lifestyle, don't be surprised if people
treat you differently. If you are currently not acting on desires or flaunting
the lifestyle than it is nobody's business what your struggles are. I'm married
and see pretty women all the time and thoughts can creep in, but I don't act and
I don't need to share with others at church. Seek the help and counceling you
need to help overcome your desires and by all means, come back to church. I
know it helps me.
"Jonathon | 7:19 p.m. Apr. 7, 2008 Why can't the church change its
doctrine? It wouldn't be the first time. The year I was baptised into the church
(1978) was the same year the church made a major break with its past and began
allowing blacks to hold the priesthood. Apparently it took god that long to get
over his racism and see all races as equal. Now if only he could get past his
sexism and homophobia, maybe the church could join the twenty first century... "
I new alot of people who left the church in 1978 because blacks could now hold
the priesthood. I am happy that the leaders who ran the church changed their
rules in 1978 and wouldn't it be cool if the rules were changed once again for
these loving people who are being shunned by the LDS church?
This is directed to all you hypocritical, self-righteous members of the LDS
faith. First, know that I am a happily married, heterosexual male
member of the church. Next, consider a few facts. Roughly 10% of the
human population is homosexual. Most do not "choose" their sexual preferance any
more than I chose to be right handed. Many have the same moral standards as any
good member of the church, yet they are forced to live a lie or abandon their
faith. It is not for us to judge these people (ANY PEOPLE). God will take
care of that so don't worry. We will all get our just reward. Perhaps better to
focus on the commandments such as, "Love thy neighbor" than to look down your
nose at those you deem less righteous than yourself. There is an old joke that
says the world is divided into two groups of people: the righteous and the
unrighteous. And the righteous do the dividing. You can attend church
all you want, go to the temple regularly, pay your tithing, serve in your
calling, but if you can't truly love your fellow beings, well... good luck.
You're going to need it.
As an active member of the LDS church who happens to have same gender
attraction, I am saddened by the amount of intolerance that is being conveyed in
these comments by other members of my faith. The fact of the matter
is, the LDS church has an abysmal track record for retaining gay members. Even
those of us who choose to not act on our attractions are often made to feel
dirty and unclean for simply having them by these sort of self righteous and
hateful comments. For that reason, many (if not most) of us choose to remain
fully closeted - fearful of how other members of the church will treat us if
they knew of our inner most secrets.I am not a member of
Affirmation; however, I welcome this news. While I don't expect any major
shifts in church policy to be the result, I am hopeful that this will pave the
way for better understanding and compassion.
Another person who "get's it"!!! Thank you. Love the comment about the
righteous do the dividing, well put!!!
It is not selfrighteous to have values and morals; no one is forcing anyone who
believes such ideas to remain in the church--though immorality applies to
everyone in every situation--they want everyone to condone conduct that insults
members who try to live teachings; they want a pass, to only accept what they
selfishly desire, and the destruction nature of live-style over along period of
time is well documented by socialogical studies, same sex relationships fail,
and do not last, so why support them?
Can someone please explain to me why it's the job of the church to make
homosexuals feel better about themselves, and their sin?Homosexuals
experiencing guilt and anger over their failure to rectify doctrine with choice,
either need to seek their priesthood leadership and get right with God, or
abandon the church and get psychological counseling in order to get over their
bitterness at the Lord and the LDS faith.God does not create us to
sin against him. All of us have free will. Denial of the appetites is part of
our lesson here on this fallen Earth. If you feel an undeniable urge to have
sex with your own gender, and you're LDS, it's up to you to come to grips with
your choice. Either decide to deny yourself and abide by the gospel, or learn
to live in sin and forget about the LDS church. Because there cannot ever be a
time when LDS doctrine smiles on homosexual activity. It won't happen.Hard words. But these are hard times. And the church is not a therapy group
for people who can't get over themselves.
To Reed, Whoa there! Let's not ruin this discussion with name
calling, accusations, and condemnations. By far the majority of the LDS members
posting here have shown love and understanding. It seems to me that most of the
negative comments are coming from people who want to call others self righteous,
intolerant, etc., etc., etc.How about being tolerant of people who
choose to accept the Lords word found in many many scriptural references and the
words of modern day prophets that homosexuality is a sin? Most of us
who believe that also accept the Lord's teachings about loving sinners and
reaching out to help them. We know that we are sinners also. None of us can
point fingers at those who feel same sex attraction and judge them for the
temptations they face. All of us are trying to overcome our own weaknesses. We cannot get back to heavenly father by trying to change his standards
on any issue. We have to change to match those standards. None of us can meet
those standards without the help of Christ through the atonement. Let's work together to help each other do that.
Reed and reReed,Would you agree that quite interestingly on these
pages; it often appears that the dividing is done by both parties evenly? Yet,
one party seems more vilified for holding a contrary, politically incorrect and
old fashioned opinion.Sadly, in our modern and "enlightened" world,
what is sauce for the goose really ain't for the gander.
I had a neighbor who was a young mother struggling with alcoholism and financial
problems. I truly cared about her and her family and tried to help with AA
meetings and being a friend. She confided in me about feelings of same sex
atraction as well as interest in other men besides her husband. I tried to help
her keep her family together, but when she wanted me to meet her "boyfriend," I
began to see that what she wanted from me was acceptance of her behavior, not
help to overcome her problems. I could not accept behavior that went against
everything I believe in and she could not change me, so I was not what she
wanted in a friend. I'm sure that she feels that I rejected her friendship and
did not care about her, but that was not the case. The problem I
see with many homosexuals is that they equate loving them with accepting their
lifestyle. If we don't accept it then we don't love them. Accepting sinful
behavior (hetero or homosexual) that is openly displayed is just as difficult
for me as changing sexual attraction would be for someone who is homosexual.
All of us, myself especially, face temptations and I don't blame anyone for the
temptations they face. However, I feel like I have to comment on the excuse I
hear again and again about a genetic link to homosexuality. I want to make a few
points.1. A genetic link is irrelevant. Heterosexuality is in most
peoples genes but that doesn't make it ok for them to be philanderers or
pornographers.2. If homosexuality were a genetic trait then it would
have self selected itself out of existence long ago. Homosexuals do sometimes
marry heterosexually and have children, but if homosexuality were genetically
linked the trait would tend to eliminate itself.3. If homosexuality
is genetic then why is there no strong tendency for it to run in families? I
have known many homosexuals but I have never met one that came from a family
with many of them.I am not a scientist and can't prove whether
genetics has anything to do with homosexuality or not but let's not use genetics
as an excuse for any of our sins whether they are related to sexuality or not.
Always dividing people.Always setting groups apart from each other.Never a meeting of the minds.The same mindset that occurs before a civil
war.Always a "right is right!" mentality.
No, I don't think that the dividing is done evenly. When those who oppose me
and my lifestyle to the point of a constitutional amendment to prevent my
enacting my civil rights. I can't concider that as even division. When those in
opposition call me a pedophile not because I have violated a child but because I
am attracted to other men, that is not even. When I read and hear time and
again how those like me are going to be the downfall of society I can't see that
as even, nor would I call it an even division when I must conform to the
standards of normalicy as dictaded by those who think they are all knowing or
else face retribution that in the past has included physical violence. No, I
wouldn't call that an even division.
To "Don't Blame Genetics" AMEN!
This is in response to Mormon Mom and others out there who may have despaired
because of perceived lack of support by the LDS church in this matter. There
have been several organized groups that have formed through the years that have
taken positive steps to support members of the church who deal with these
feelings of SSA (Same Sex Attraction). One in particular [Evergreen} has
received incredible support from the church. The challenge has been to get the
word out to the Stake Presidents that they do exist. The Church's Family
Services, from what I understand, does have information regarding some of these
support groups. Others can be found through internet searches. Do a search on
Same Sex Attraction and you may find some of this information. There are
psychologists and others doing positive, constructive research of this, that
many of us deal with. Do not be troubled by all the emotional outbursts and
controversy about this...there is help out there and has been for some time.
Having just married in the temple a woman who has a gay son, I am encouraged by
President Monson's decision to have Church officials meet with the Affirmation
group. Too many Church members' words and actions betray the loving kindness
our Lord Jesus Christ would have us model as His followers, and opening up an
official dialogue with these disenfranchised Saints is simply the right thing
to do.Becoming divorced after a twenty-three year marriage taught me
much about what the Lord would have us say and do towards others who suffer
estrangement from the fellowship of the Saints, much of the teachings coming in
the form of scorn, ridicule and estrangement from family, "friends" and other
members of this Church named after Jesus Christ.I endorse _any_
action which sincerely seeks "to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty
to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound" (Isaiah
61) including any of us who feel after the Savior out of desperate need.Christ would have us do no less.
I have to assume that all those people who see no difference between being gay
and being tempted to steal, drink alcohol, not pay tithing, cheat, overeat, act
selfishly, and speed in traffic (among the many cited) are not close to anyone
who is gay. Those who know and care about gay people know that
sexual orientation is not a mere temptation to do something the church
prohibits, but is fundamental to one's very identity. They see that Church
members treat gay people very differently than people "who struggle to not be
selfish" or to give up coffee.
Just another reason I am glad I don't go to church..to much stoning going down.
My father struggled with homosexuality throughout his life. Early in his
marriage he acted on the temptation for the first time causing great pain to his
wife and family. He did his best to repent and for years was free of the sin.
During that time he accomplished great good. He brought the gospel to many
people and raised his children in the church. He still felt temptation. Life
wasn't easy but he did his best.In his later life he became
discouraged because of an illness that was a direct result of his earlier
problem. He gave up and gave in to his temptation. He divorced my mother and
isolated himself from everyone that loved him and instead chose to associate
himself with others that had the same temptation. Eventually he was
murdered by one of his homosexual partners who stole his money to buy drugs. I don't know what will happen to my father. I don't know what
circumstances caused him to face the temptations he faced. I know only this, God
prohibits homosexuality for the same reason he prohibits all sin. It does not
and cannot make people happy. We love and miss you dad.
So Reed calls those LDS members opposed to homosexuality "self-righteous" and
"hypocritical." He blasts them for passing judgment, yet that is exactly what
he is doing in telling them "good luck--you're going to need it." Who's the
hypocrite?Furthermore, loving your neighbors does not mean
condoning, supporting, or even accepting their behavior. You can accept a
person without accepting his/her lifestyle. It's absurd to suggest that in
order to love my neighbors I have to approve of anything and everything they
choose to do. My own father is gay (one of the founding members of Affirmation)
and I still accept and love him as a person, even though I disapprove of his
behavior and lifestyle.
The LDS Church believes homosexuality is wrong and that's not going to change.
True some people have an attraction to members of the same sex. As long as they
don't act on those feelings they can remain worthy members of the church. BYU's
honor code will not change. Why should it? Straight students can't honorably
attend if they are sexually active. They're not going to make an exception for
a minority group.
To: "Don't Blame Genetics"That's like saying downs syndrome, or
sickle cell, or cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago.
RE: Sagacious | 11:40 a.m. Apr. 8 To which civil rights do you
refer? Those civil rights outlawing sex with children or animals? Those similar
civil rights outlawing polygamy, prostitution or sex outside marriage? Those
under which Texas is prosecuting the RLDS? Which sexually related laws violate
your civil rights? How? Which should be abolished? If some, to make things
even, why not all? Did someone unjustly call you a pedophile? That
would be wrong! If, however, you support pedophilia through child pornography,
or in any way, would such name calling make things more even? If
someone believes your lifestyle is potentially the downfall of society should
they be vilified and silenced while you retain the right to openly advocate your
agenda? Does the imposition of standards of normalicy by society imply evil to
those who think they are all knowing; whilst you of a vastly minor and opposing
viewpoint are really the ones who are all knowing? Have you;
others you know; suffered physical violence from the normal society which
oppresses you? Have you suffered it from the twisted community? Either way, its wrong; and should be prosecuted under law. Would that
even division of prosecution satisfy you?
Gays who have illicit sex should be expelled. As the article states, "The same
standard applies to straight students." Good point. Gays should be accepted, but
acting on their tendencies should not, just as fornication is not accepted.
To Dane and WJ: I think the point about the honor code at BYU is that it has
not always been applied equally. Gay students have been expelled for things far
short of sex, such as hand-holding and merely "associating" with other gay
Moessers,Great insight!In the spirit of true and open
acceptance and for the sake of absolute, unquestioning tolerance; as with Down
Syndrome, or Sickle Cell, or Cancer we should probably accept the mutation
causing Homosexuality as a normal condition of humankind.Do you
I've decided to comment without first reading the comments posted here. I'm
hopeful the posters exhibited the same spirit of hopefulness and reconciliation
and understanding that the LDS Church and Affirmation have expressed. Yes,
there is a need for what Ms. Larabee calls for: "more understanding, more
acceptance and less isolation." Though I myself am a heterosexual LDS man, I
have good friends who are gay and have had gay friends who have died of AIDs. I
love and accept my gay friends and am confident they will be met by a loving and
accepting God on the other side of the veil. On the other hand, I don't believe
that God countenances either gay sex or extramarital heterosexual sex. We are
all humans, prone to making mistakes, whether we are gay or hetero. Such
mistakes can lead to much unhappiness, including a loss of self-esteem. I have
no problem having openly sexuallly active gays in church just as I have no
problem accepting couples who live together outside marriage. But I don't think
the church can be expected to start issuing temple recommends to members of
To Moessers,"That's like saying downs syndrome, or sickle cell, or
cancer should have selected itself out a long time ago."Those
diseases aren't always caused by genetic inheritance from your parents. Cancer,
for example, can be caused the introduction of external substances, (i.e.
smoking, radiation exposure, etc.).Genetic pre-disposition can lead
to illnesses like that, and to the extent that death occurs before adulthood
they do tend to select themselves out. The problem is that these conditions
often do not cause death before the person reproduces.If
homosexuality were genetically related it would not necessarily select itself
out of existence entirely because, as I mentioned, homosexuals do sometimes
marry heterosexually and have children. However, it would tend towards
elimination. What we see in society today is that homosexuality is a growing
problem, not a shrinking one.The genetic traits leading to the
illnesses you mention can be traced from generation to generation. Why do we not
see that with homosexuality?Above all my primary point remains, all
of us have genetically produced desires that can lead us to sin. We have to
control those desires if we want to be productive members of society.
How is that so many people here have so many gay friends? Statistics show that
only 3% of the population is gay. So if you have 100 good friends, which is a
lot of GOOD friends 3 of them would be gay. Yet a number of people on here have
a lot of gay friends. I have only known about 5 or so openly gay people in my
I think trying to discern what is in anybody's heart is difficult if not
impossible. None of us know where another is on his spiritual journey. I
cannot believe anybody would choose the lifestyle of the gay person if he truly
had a choice. Life is difficult enough for the straight person. I think each
of us is charged with helping all persons to reach their goals where we are
able. Life must be very lonely for those who find themselves unable to live
their chosen spiritual path without the support of loved ones and friends and
with a spirit that tells them they are different. I can only imagine trying to
be happy and live a fulfilled life as a person that is reviled by the general
public, wondering if the next person they meet is going to be so disagreeable as
to be even dangerous to their very life. It would be wonderful for the families
of these loved ones to be able to live without the dread of hearing off colored
jokes and cruel criticism of their gay loved one.
I'm sorry, but framing homosexuality as a civil rights movement is ridiculous
and opens a pandora's box for other destructive behavior. If we need to
legislate to protect the "right" of gays than we need to legislate to protect
the "right" of smokers, drug addicts, and alcoholics. How is sexual preference
different than any other preference? If we protect the rights of one group's
preferences we have to do it for everyone. The Bill of Rights is enough for
I am referring to my right to live my life equally under the laws, i.e
marriage/legal rights. Where you came up with all the sexual content, I don't
know, I never mentioned it. Get your mind out of my bedroomYes, I
have been called a pedophile and on this very site. Because I am gay, I would
call that "unjustly" wouldn't you? And no I DON'T support any type of child
exploitation be it pornography or polgamy. Again, don't know where you got
that.NO ONE needs ot remain silent, again something I didn't say.
BUt why should I remain silent as a minority? And what about your agenda?
Aren't you promoting it? Why shouldn't I??Yes, I have suffered
physical violence because I was gay. But I could not prosecute it as a hate
crime with stiffer penalties because crimes against gays are not classified as
hate crimes. You can't prosecute a law that doesn't exist.Finally,
yes I would like to see an equal division of rights. Both good and bad, based
on a system of balance, equality and justice. Would YOU settle for anything
Dane...you mention that there are people that are attracted to the same sex, but
as long as they keep it to themselves, then they can still be worthy members of
the church...is'nt that being a little hypercritical. When the Bishop ask's you
if you have been moraly clean for your temple recomandation, what is one to
do??? LIE??? Just like the person who lies about having a beer once in a
while, and then tells the bishop that he/she has been moraly clean. I would
rather see someone be truthful and say yes I am gay, and still be accepted, then
to see someone lie, just to put on a good show.
Being from an oversea country where Church is still "emerging", I am quite
saddened by some of your comments. We tend to look up to you, the Sion... Let me
summarize the few noteworthy thoughts stated here, for the benefit of those who
might be in need: 1) You'd better never tell anyone, especially if you sincerely
hope and plan to remain temple worthy; 2) You will always lack the emotional
closeness, someone you can actually talk to; But you can develop much closer
relationship with your Savior. Afer all, He is the only one who really
understands you. 3) In the moments of despair and temptation, just remember
"straight" men fight these battles too, only their enemy looks different. And
let me add two more: 4) Beware of the feelings of being treated injustly (no
matter how unfair it felt to suddenly discover yours was the SGA), simply don't
dwell on it and get involved in other things. And if you really cant't at this
moment, hang on (and hold to the rod) till you again can. And 5)Yes, definitely,
you have the right to belong to this group, it's your Heavenly Father's kingdom.
To Dave:I never said I was an expert on the topic however I do believe
that homosexuality is a behavioral choice. We are not animals. We can train
Quote scripture, modern prophets, alien visitors and interpret them as you
will. It's moderately applicable and mildly entertaining. But, the God I know
cares more about how we treat our fellow beings than our grasp of doctrine.
Having a good heart, caring attitude, humble demeanor and contrite spirit is
going to carry us further toward our eternal goals than comprehension of
convoluted or partially disclosed church teachings. It is not the church we
worship, it is God. Come judgement day, do you really think He will ask you to
quote scripture or explain doctrine? Or, might He get more to the point and ask,
"When your brother suffered, what gavest thou him? Understanding & love or a
lecture on right versus wrong. I apologize if I was guilty of name
calling. That was not my intention. However, I am reminded of one of my fathers
favorite sayings, "If the shoe fits, wear it".
Does anyone see the double-standard in saying "The same standard at BYU applies
to straight students--Sex outside of marriage is wrong!?" Okay
then, straight people can get married and then have sex, but is that available
to homosexuals? NO! What hubris! Is the only thing that would make straight
people see how wrong they are a proclamation against straight marriage?
Are you an idiot? Homosexuality IS all about the sex. If you take the sex away
it is hanging out with the guys (or girls).There are and have been
many men in my life who I loved dearly and wanted to spend time with but I never
thought of them in a sexual way. This was NOT same gender attraction
and should not be confused with it or homosexuality. This is healthy.Taking it to the level of fantasizing about the other person and getting naked
is unhealthy and wrong.
Just Curious, have you wondered how many covertly gay people you have known? In
my case I graduated high school in a class of 450, meaning that if I accept your
3% guideline, then about 15 of them were gay. I also had close associations
with many students who were a year younger and a year older than I was due to
the type of school I attended and the activities in which I took part. Each of
those classes was composed of approximately 400 persons, so that's another 24
gay persons who were in my school at any given time when I was a junior, for a
total of 39. I knew about two -thirds of the students my age and about half
the students who were a year older or younger than I was. In college I had
close associations with perhaps 200 other students in my on-campus job, student
organizations, intramural sports, etc. So there's another six gays I would know
by name. In my professional life I knew two gays who worked in my office at my
first big job, and I'm sure there were others. There are 200 people in my LDS
Sexual orientation is such a bigger part of one's life than a temptation to
drink alcohol, or smoke, or "lose one's temper", or drive above the speed
limit.I just want to ask all these people who keep making those
comparisons to imagine a world where the vast majority of people were attracted
to others of the same sex, such that for a long time it was considered the only
norm. Yet you are attracted to the opposite sex, you always have been, and you
don't know why. Can you imagine trying to conform to the norm that is expected
of you? Could you will yourself to become gay? And would that be at all like
abstaining from coffee?
SGL: You are asked if you keep the Law of Chastity. If you have attraction
isssues and do not act on it, you are keeping the LOC. This holds true for
opposite or same gender attraction.
Well, I am glad that the church never changes its mind or updates its
understanding of God's will, otherwise we would have blacks holding the
To Don't Blame Genetics:You call homosexuality a growing problem?
Not a shrinking one?You have no idea how many people over the last
millions of years since man walked out the primordial soup have been gay. But
given religious zealots, they hid their true human characteristics. Now, a large
portion of society has gained understanding and realize that gays and lesbians
are people too, so more homosexuals are able to be open and free about it. Fortunately the shrinking problem is society's intolerance of gays and
Can someone please list for me the top three things Affirmation wishes to
accomplish in this meeting with the Church?
In Sunday's General Conference session, President Monson said to inactive
memebers: "Come back. Come back and feast." He did NOT say, "Come back, unless
you are gay or lesbian." This invitation makes the LDS Church liable for
opening a path for ALL alienated memebers to return to the flock, including
those who have stopped participating due to their sexual orientation and not
their lack of faith.
I have struggled with same gender attraction all my life. The intensity of
these is strongly connected to where I am spiritually. I have learned over the
years where the danger zones are and I keep as far away from them as
possible.We are told that the struggles we are called to endure were
agreed upon in our pre-mortal life no matter what they may be. I have faith
that one day these feelings will be taken away if I endure well in this life.
Isn't this what the Atonement is all about? Maybe I was given this thorn in the
flesh to understand the atonement more fully!It all comes down to
perspective. This life is short compared to the possibilities promised to us in
the eternities. I equate it with struggling through a 3 hour exam knowing that
you have a lifetime of opportunity ahead with a diploma. You don't walk out of
the exam hall half way through because it is difficult!To those who
are confused and are struggling, know that it is possible to enjoy the full
blessings of the gospel no matter how you or anyone else may wish to justify
For anyone who has faith and hope in the GOspel of Jesus Christ and wants to
find helpful resources for finding solutions to the challenges of same-sex
attraction in harmony with Gospel principles, know that there are many great
organizations with some wonderful people who are willing and able to help. This
would include groups like Evergreen International, North Star, the Matis
firesides, LDS-SSA.Org, Disciples2, Clean-LDS, etc. They are are found listed on
the LDS SSA Resources website on GeoCities and can be found with Web searches.
(And most of the links found on Affirmation's websites are to other apostate
organizations that won't help much with a person's desire to live the
Gospel.)Despite a lot of remaining misunderstandings among good
people, there is plenty of help and there is plenty of hope for the thousands of
people who are devoted to the Saviour and His Gospel.
"Happiness". But it was the world that ruined your father by not letting him
accept who he was....and it was very sad about about his "partner" and that he
wasn't a good person. How many heterosexual persons do you hear about on the
news that are involved with drugs? The world has made you combined the "sins"
of the world with people that are gay. That is sad indeed.
@ Reed-"When your brother suffered, what gavest thou him?" Sounds
like a scripture I've heard before. The thing is, I'll bet that what you
believe about God is deeply rooted in scripture and religious teachings. You
may not admit it right away, but if you look deep down to the source, you'll
find it and yes, it is important to have a grasp for doctrine. God gave us this
so we can come closer to him by learning his will for us. This is how you came
to believe this about God only it seems you stopped learning.Yes, we
do need to love all and welcome them to church. But loving is different from
accepting actions. My brother has had a drug problem for years. Does he know I
love him? Yes. Does he know I disagree with his actions? Yes. Does he know
I'll do anything to help him? Yes. Just as I would help anyone overcome their
struggles in life.Church is here as a support group for overcoming
sin and struggles and if a homosexual wants help overcoming, I welcome them with
open arms. I won't however, lower standards so others won't feel insecure.
The church position will never change. We can reach out to our brothers and
sisters, just like we would any person that has been lead astray by Satan. We
will go after the 1 and leave the 99. We will love everyone, but loving them
does not mean accepting thier sin.
@ One more 4:12 p.m.He said come back, not come back and will bend
doctrine to make you feel comfortable. Come back, repent, and rejoin the
fold.@ Anonymous and Trying 4:16 p.m.Wow! God bless you
brother, may we keep those in your situation in our prayers and reach to give a
I don't hear murmuring either. What I don't understand is why do
they want the church to change anything? If they believe God is running the
show, are they petitioning Him for a change? And if they believe this church
isn't run by God, but merely men, why do they care what these men think? BYU has standards - why not go somewhere else if you don't like the
standards? If you like to drink alcohol, it's clear you should also choose
another school. I, for one, love the idea of a place that still has traditional
values. I do agree that there is room for improvement in how a gay
person is treated by leaders. I'm quite certain that a more sensitive approach
that doesn't induce guilt and condemnation would better serve people - on all
issues. But they aren't likely to get that, since the rest of us can't even get
Comparing homosexuality to drug addiction is ludicrous. There is nothing wrong
do not discriminate against homosexuals; they apply equally to everyone. Anyone
may marry a person of the opposite gender, no one may marry a person of their
own gender. Equal treatment for all.
The Affirmation people are crazy. Changing BYU's honor code?? Going to BYU is
not about you expressing individuality, it is about becoming a plastic person.
An automaton that acts with the collective, not a thinking autonomous being. They should all seek psychiatric help, not for being gay, but for their
inability to recognize the truth and find a new culture to identify with.
Notice the "folks" you want to "hang" with have to be told to love you because
they are not capable of recognizing it on their own; the love of Christ does not
really reside in their hearts. Seriously, I hope they all find the peace
they are seeking, they are just looking for gold nuggets in the sky instead of
the stream of true living water.
I love "Gays", and I love Straight too. I do however hate their Sin. Being GAY
is not a "SIN", acting on an attraction to someone of the same sex and having
"Sex" with them IS A SIN! They need Counseling and help learning what is
"Natural" and "Normal". I am sorry to those who think it is a "Normal" behavior,
but Satan has really pulled the wool over your eyes. To go meet with this "Gay
Group" is perfectly acceptable, but for them to Admit Gay Members who act on
their attractions in a sexual manner which IS A PERVERSION, is WRONG, and they
never will indulge homosexuals in that capacity, nor allow "Same Sex"
Partnerships as Acceptable. Frankly, God would not either, it would be Contrary
to the Scriptures, and it would be like God Changing His mind. If that were to
happen, wouldn't God cease to be God? For Homophobes, relax, you have nothing to
worry about, although I feel sorry for you. Hate the SIN never the Sinner!
Repentance Is The Greatest Gift Of All!!!
I've had several gay friends that died young because of their lifestyle choice,
due to AIDS. They left no posterity behind, no legacy to leave their grief
stricken parents, just heartache. I loved these people, but still wonder why
their "compulsion" was more important than having a family. After this life
ends and each of us is judged, there won't be any "homosexual activity" allowed,
no matter what Affirmation or any other gay group has to say. The principle of
Chastity is still in force and always will be. The dialogue between Affirmation
and the LDS Church won't ever change the Church's position, but will emphasize
that everyone is a child of God, the Family is Forever and that the Church is
there to help those who have gone astray to realize their true identity and
purpose in the eternities.
All I know is that if BYU changes the Honor Code to permit sexual intercourse
for gays/lesbians -- I will apply to be a graduate student and check the box
"Lesbian trapped in a man's body".:)(this is a joke, but it
does show the folly of redifing what is male and what is female, and their
proper roles in relationships).
To My condolances to you,"But it was the world that ruined your
father by not letting him accept who he was...."The world did
nothing to my father. He chose his own path for his own reasons. He was
responsible for himself. I love my father very much, but to say that the world,
or his family, injured him is incorrect. Should we have been happy that he was
unfaithful to my mother, or that he contracted a disease while doing so? Should
we have been happy when he chose to divorce my mother and leave our family? My dad was only thinking of himself and his own desires when he did
those things.I'm tired of people who are unwilling to take
responsibility for themselves. They want everyone to believe that they have no
choice, that they can't help what they do. Anyone who does not accept this is an
intolerant bigot, a backwards person who needs to come into the enlightened
twenty first century. Homosexuals have as much choice as anybody
else. When they take responsibility for their own actions they can repent and be
saved like anyone else as well. We are willing to help.
Yes, you may be. Read what the church has said recently about having homosexual
desires to find out. But then again, you have already admitted that you will
never understand homosexual desires, so perhaps you shouldn't even try.
I applaud President Monson and the Mormon Church for being open to listening to
the concerns of gay Mormons. A meeting like this can only do good. It is a
positive thing to maintain open lines of communication. I am not gay myself, but
I know some gay Mormons and they have a tremendously difficult cross to bear. To
be Mormon and gay is a tremendous challenge. Anything the Church could do to
show these good people love and acceptance is a positive step. I think the
Church has always cared for these people, but it has not always listened to
them. So this is just a fantastic step in the right direction. Glad to see it!
I agree strongly. You can't have it both ways. I understand the dialog... but it
really won't go far because the Church isn't changing ANYTHING. The only thing
that might change is a little further instruction on how families can deal with
this in a more productive way and less family-destructive way.But
why I agree with you so much...You can NOT have it both ways about
BYU. The Church is against unlawful(Gods law) sexual activities. The Law of
Chastity is binding and to state that you can be a good LDS member who is
faithful and spotless AND gay is not possible.If you allow gays
sexual activity at BYU then you must to all couples who are not married. You
might as well destroy BYU as it would defy the WHOLE MEANING of the school.Also assuming that the Church is true, the revelation is true. The
School is under direction of the church and therefor is how it ought to be. If
the Church is true then it's teachings are and God the father would change no
doctrine but try to help others be clean and righteous.I'm not
anti-gay but this just doesn't work.
I wanted to add more to a couple points. I really am not trying to sound
anti-gay. I have friend who are gay. I don't welcome their behavior around me
but I don't refuse them.You just can't be Gay and LDS.. ESPECIALLY
to try to petition the Church to change anything. I understand that more may be
needed to help families stay stronger with homosexual issues confronting
them.You can't claim to believe in God and his teachings, especially
on being gay and choose to be homosexual; while believing you are following
God's plan.The other problem I worry about is that if more people
feel it is okay to be homosexual and LDS.. how many people have already lied and
gone to temple's during that time? A good number. I believe this number would
drastically get worse and this is SO unfair to the LDS families that hold the
temple sacred and as a holy and clean place.People fight for
homosexual-freedom all the time and usually criticize those who disagree as
intolerant when many just peacefully disagree. It's intolerant to criticize
someone for only disagreeing with gay-rights-groups.I'm not anti-gay
but I am pro-family and true Marriage.
Most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints remember John C.
Bennett, former Nauvoo mayor, and assistant to Joseph Smith. He was found to
have committed adultry and this included ( as historical research has shown)
homosexual activity. Joseph tried to help him repent but, Bennett was unable to
let go of his own wants. Bennett became an enemy to Joseph Smith and the Saints
and caused much of the persecution towards them in Nauvoo. He later joined the
Strangites ( Rigdon's group) and left them as well because of his Sexual
problems. His problems with sexual misconduct and power brought down a man who
had the potential to be another Brigham Young. The Gay lifestyle is a road to
nowhere that keeps going on and on but has no safe and restful destination. "So
much potential" and so much to lose because one cannot be obedient to that which
is most sacred by our Lord; a Godly ordained marriage between and man and woman.
Um, it was Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve.
If Christ were walking on earth today I know that he'd be hanging out with the
GLBT community, the poor, those most hated by society - that example is all
throughout the Bible, BOM, etc. God loves everyone, humans do not. God accepts
everyone, people do not. I am incredibly blessed by my GLBT friends and I hope
that one day everyone, the Church included, comes around and simply sees that
it's about love, and love should be honored and revered. If everyone can
understand that then there would be that much less hate in the world. We
certainly have enough hate and anger in the world without this issue being a
part of it.
A large portion of the world view the concept of homosexuality through one lens:
the lens of what God and the Bible says. In reality, life is and works very
differently then just within the defined confines of traditional Christianity.
Humanity goes on, society continues to exist, grows, flourishes, evolves, but
traditional Christians are stuck within an ancient mind set. They can not get
their head around the concept that gays and lesbians are regular, normal
function humans too. However, society presses on for the better,
archaic thinking is falling away, and thank goodness, homosexuals are living
fuller, richer, happier lives as the world embraces them and allows them to live
openly in society. We're all better off as the oppressive concepts of older
generations fade away.It will take probably at least one more
generation, but being an open homosexual will be nothing out of the ordinary
that society will mock, stifle, or oppress. And no, it won't be the end of the
world or the apocalypse. Just a fuller society for us all.
It's a little sick and obsessive to hold a grudge for 200 years for something
that didn't even happen to you! Guess what? Joseph Smith also
married a 14yo girl and the wives of some of his associates who were still
married to their living husbands and the church has moved away from those
particular doctrines even though they were supposedly delivered to JS directly
from God via an angel with a flaming sword. You're showing the hard
and cruel heart of the LDS. Personally, I find that more repulsive than people
loving one another.
I truly wish that we could all cool down and approach this matter with a bit
more maturity.To those who feel the need to express their views
against homosexuality so vehemently, please take a moment to realize how hurtful
words like "abomination, unclean, sinful, dirty, unnatural, disgusting" etc. can
be. Imagine having those words flung around in reference to you, no less by your
friends, family and fellow churchgoers on a regular basis. I assure you, it
hurts deeply. And to be a bit closer to reality, there are a lot of slurs used
frequently that cannot be posted here. Stop using them.Imagine
hearing the word 'gay' hundreds of times every day as a synonym for stupid or
unwanted. Imagine struggling with homosexuality and constantly being remind that
you are different. That if you stumble, you will be cast out. Imagine being
afraid you will be found out, even if you haven't committed a sin
technically.This is the norm in our culture. After a decade of
dealing with this, one does not adjust to this attitude. It hurts every time.
You don't have to change your religion, but at least be thoughtful in how you
The time has long since passed to stop demonizing gay people. Whether they act
on it or not, homosexual men and women should not have to live in fear. We all
need to emphasize the "loving the sinner" part. Heaven knows we have spent
enough time "hating the sin."To those who think their rights are
being stifled for opposing homosexuality, remember that here in Utah, you are
the supermajority. Your beliefs are not in danger, but the way you speak causes
great damage to those around you who may be struggling with how to cope with
their homosexual feelings. Why would anybody want to affiliate with the church
after hearing the way most of us talk about homosexuality? Emphasize the love
people. God will handle the rest.
I think it is a great thing for Affirmation to meet with Church Leaders to vent
some of their frustrations. However, I do not think they will be very pleased
with the results inasmuch as the Church is not going to change any of its
current beliefs, doctrines, policies or procedures. I don't know what is so
difficult to understand about the Church's position about homosexuality. If there are any complaints about the Church being homophobic, such
complaints are certainly about individual Church members and not the Church as
an institution. Is it homophobic to condemn homosexuality as a sin?
you could argue that, but then any Christian who belief the Bible to be a
standard to live by will be found on that same homophobic group.I
personally believe homosexuality is not a good thing, the same way I think
pornography is not a good thing. I don't hate the people who practice it or
watch it, I do think that engaging in such practices is destructive in many
levels, including emotional and spiritual.
Moessers, the argument here is that homosexuals are seeking acceptance WITHIN
Christianity, not outside of it. If an accepting society is all they are
looking for, there are plenty of countries in the world that could accomodate
their lifestyle far better than ours. But they are looking for more--they want
to be accepted within the "confines" of the church, and in this case, the LDS
church specifically. They want the (LDS) church to say it's okay to practice
homosexuality. Fortunately, those of us who are "archaic" thinkers can rest
assured that our ideals, standards, and values will not bend to society's
ever-changing (mis)conception of what is right and what is wrong. You are right
in that our mind-set is ancient. In fact, our mind-set existed as part of an
eternal plan long before this world was created. One or two more generations of
society will not change that.
RE:Sagacious PT2 | 2:36 p.m. What specifically cant you do under
law? There are legal methods, excluding marriage, of achieving what you deprive
yourself of by choosing to be homosexual. Historically, marriage sanctioned
sexual activity and protected human reproduction. Unmarried sexual activity is
outlawed. Your bedroom interests no one. The historically validated sanctity
of marriage does.If youre not a pedophile, none should label you
thusly. You didnt say anyone should remain silent, but, you railed
against the all knowing who promote constitutional amendments limiting your
rights. Correctly, those who feel strongly should pursue amendments.
Constitutional rights are extant only when codified. Each agenda can be
pursued; neither should call for silencing the other. Nor should either posture
as the more righteous. When you suffered physical violence, did you
press charges under existing assault laws? Those laws protect you evenly as
they protect me. Im as much minority as you. Had I suffered assault, Id surely
have proceeded under the even law seeking justice. Why do you need special
protection? Theres no need of any special law to protect you. To pretend such
is cowardly.No, Id settle only for even laws, with justifiable
purposes. No special laws.
President Monson and the LDS church are seeking bridges. They will not change
their doctrine but they can do much to integrate those who are willing to abide
by the law of chastity. 1/3 of the adult membership is single. Whether someone
is attracted to the opposite sex or the same sex both are bound by the law of
chastity. That is if you believe in the law of chastity to start with.
Well, I wasn't going to submit another comment but after seeing all the nasty
remarks, thank you for those that are at least open to gays talking with church
leadership, I have determined that seeing the nastiness that has been put forth,
leaving the church was the right thing. I do not see the Christlike love that
so many purport in church meetings. I see very little in the way of actions and
often times the words spoken show the true person underneath. It is interested
to see that those that speak so nastily about gays do not want to put their name
on, but rather some moniker.I am not ashamed of who I am nor am I
ashamed of the gospel, what I am ashamed of is the members of the church acting
like they are and making assumptions that are not there to be made. President Monson is the current prophet, sustained in a solemn assembly on
Saturday morning. It is under his direction that the meeting was arranged after
a letter was sent. Who are any of us to question the prophet after sustaining
him or was there a secret meeting to subvert his calling?
Utah Resident: Here's the deal: if homosexuality is wrong, then any
demonstrative acts of that lifestyle are also wrong. BYU is a private
university. Just as students would not be allowed to dress immodestly on campus,
any act that hints at homosexuality is not allowed either. BYU will never change
that. While you are correct, heterosexual students would not be punished for
holding hands, etc, homosexuality is different. Displays of affection between
the same gender is part of homosexuality. Since the Church does not support this
lifestyle, all aspects are not supported. Period. However, I am glad that this
dialogue is taking place. I would never want anyone to feel ostracized. These
people are important and have value, just like me. And these people need to be
loved, just like me. And we all can help each other.
Okay, well I would like to say that none of you have a choice in what you are.
No one does! My first crush on a boy was in Kindergarten! I remember his name
and we still attend the same High School! I did not choose this. Who would
choose to be harassed and punished by the closed-minded majority of biggoted LDS
members and non members?! No one would never choose this. I have been told many
heterosexuals are scared off by gay activists, but twice I have been personally
ASSAULTED by heterosexuals! I was raised LDS. I have learned over time that it
is not all LDS members who are bigots. Only most of them. But this religion is
about GOD AND LOVING ALL OF HIS CHILDREN!! Not your bigot Idea of religion!
To all of those who are so worried about gays being allowed to married, or being
accepted into the Church, just remember there is one place you can always go,
where, according to their leader, there are NO homosexuals. That place is
To all those who posted so many nasty, judgemental, self righteous comments
here--THANK YOU! More than ever, I know I made the right choice.
As a former Utahn, I just want to say that it is so nice to now live in a place
where people just don't get so exercised by the gay issues. It is just another
fact of life. Now many of you may believe that's because the rest of the world
outside of Utah or outside of the church is just Sodom and Gomorrah. But I find
people to be caring, Christian, and without the need to condemn other ways of
life as immoral when it causes no harm to them.
Freeman: There are a myriad of Christian religions and organizations who openly
accept homosexuals and allow them to live their life. There are also some that
are still behind the times. God created homosexuals just as He did
heterosexuals and all other life forms. Times are changing and will continue to
change... and for the better as Christians behave more Christ-like and loving.
Things are not always the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
I personally support gay marriage and the rights of gays to adopt. Being a
active Latter-day Saint makes this difficult. Does this mean I agree with
their lifestyle? No. Does this mean I abuse and hate them? Absolutetly not. In
fact, I just love people. It is their decision to live their lifestyle. I
frankly don't care who people like, it is how they live their lives that matter.
To Kit | 8:19 a.m.,Once again, your Mormon simple-mindedness and
black/white thinking is astounding.By your arguments, because sex
outside of marriage is wrong, "then any demonstrative acts of that lifestyle are
also wrong". That means kissing someone to whom you are not married is wrong.
and dancing with someone to whom you are not married is wrong.Or how
about this one, because religious fanaticism is wrong, "then any demonstrative
acts of that lifestyle are also wrong". Hence, going to church is wrong. reading
scriptures is wrong. paying tithing is wrong.Give me a break. When
are they going to start teaching you how to think clearly in Sunday "School"
classes? Perhaps the use of the word "school" is a misnomer?
Moessers, your argument is changing (like your doctrine). Again, that's really
great that OTHER religions and society accept homosexuals openly and tell them
there is no sin. With so many options, why do you care what the LDS church
teaches? If someone feels the church's view is oppressive, he/she can look
somewhere else, not try to force change within the church. Demanding the LDS
church change its view is nothing more than an incredibly ironic display of
intolerance--the very thing you are reviling. Your are
right--THINGS are not always the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But GOD
is, and so are His teachings.
I am a gay man. I am also LDS. I've held callings, served a mission, attended
the Temple. I am not a political issue. I am a Child of God who suffers and
struggles with a burden thas is suffocating.I have never acted on my
desires.However,they are there and will always exist. Certainly in this life and
perhaps in the next.I currently do not attend Church because I am
hated by many of the ward members.I've never shared my sexuality with the
ward.How do I know? The topic of homosexuality came up once in Elders Quorum. I
really got to find out how my brethern felt about me.I am hated.I
try to live the covenants I have mde. I am not perfect; clearly I fail in my
attendance. It's too painful.Where are those, who by covenant at
baptism and weekly in Sacrament meeting, agreed to help bear my burdens? It
feels like they're adding to it.President Monson welcomes me back to
the fold of God with open arms. Only, I don't attend Church with him. Do the
local members do the same? Many of the comments here answer that for me.
Freeman,You said, "THINGS are not always the same yesterday, today,
and tomorrow. But GOD is, and so are His teachings."So God's
teachings about adultery didn't change? (except with polygamy)And
God's teachings about blacks holding the priesthood didn't change (except with
the 1978 declaration)You sure do claim that God's "teachings" change
ONLY when it is convenient for you. That seems like the epitome of bigotry!
Damon, I am humbled by your honesty and hope. If members near you strike you as
more inclined to judge than love you, then that is unfortunate indeed. But
there are others who, while perhaps not near you geographically, still love you
You say you've never shared your sexuality with the ward, yet you take offense
at those in the ward expressing their opinion of those they see engaging in the
homosexual lifestyle. They were not talking about you personally, if I interpret
correctly what you wrote.It was not a personal affront to you
because they don't know about you. But, you took it personally.I'm
not homphobic if you're not hetrophobic. If you see only hate, I see a condition
I neither understand nor can comprehend but wish I did. In the meantime I
commend you for struggles with your attraction problem. Keep going you're on the
right path. If I could wish anything for you it's that you would
have a less tender heart and accept that all are imperfect, including you and I.
May God Bless. Your Brother in Texas. And, no, I don't attend church
with President Monson either, just the same church he's over. May you be blind
to that which you view as hate.
Damon, your comments really touched me because they were so similar to my
feelings after my mission. After a period of such loneliness and heartache, I
too stopped attending church. I met a wonderful gay returned missionary and for
the past five years we have been building our lives together. I have never been
so happy in my life. In the next life I may have a heart-to-heart with God. I
believe he knows and loves me. In the mean time, I will continue to serve and
love my fellow brothers and sisters. There is so much pain and sadness in the
world--we should all strive to help ameliorate it. My heart breaks when I read
about your loneliness as I know the depth and sorrow of your love for God.
Anonymous 12:30,If you review the history of both polygamy and the
right to hold the priesthood as recorded in the Bible, you will find that in
different times and different places these practices have different
applications. That does not mean that the doctrine has changed. In fact, the
patterns show consistency. There is no such precedent for homosexuality in the
Bible. It has never been practiced with the consent of God. Big difference.I find your "convenient" jab completely inappropriate. How is this
convenient for me? Is having a gay father convenient for me? Is having my
family ripped apart convenient? Is it convenient for my mom, who had a nervous
breakdown?No, the convenience would have been to give in to societal
pressures and "change with the times." Then, conveniently, my father could
continue to "be himself" without the burden church-sponsored guilt. The only
burden would have been on the rest of the family.
LDSHoosier-Thank you! I know that there are members of the Church
who do love me and don't judge me. I wish that they weren't the exception. That's where I think the Church can make a difference. Removing the
stigma and prejudice surrounding this issue would make a huge difference. I
believe in the last several years the Church has made huge strides toward this,
but change is slow.
No More Sorrow:Thank you, I appreciate the empathy, it helps to know
others understand the sacrifice and at what cost.So many will
disagree with me, but I am happy for you and I wish you and your partner the
best! Thank you for posting back to me. I know what you mean about
that heart-to-heart with God. There is so little that makes sense regarding
this. I'm glad you've found someone to be happy with. Maybe one day
for me there will be "no more sorrow". I'd just prefer not to wait until the
next life for it, lol!
Re:StopDemonizingGays, I agree, we should not demonize a gay person, we should
"Love Them". The act of Sex with anyone other than your husband or wife is A
SIN! A Severe Sin! So we should realize we may be throwing stones and live in a
glass house! I also will say, People who say they are gay or lesbian and act on
the Sexual urges are committing SIN! Even thinking about it is Committing Sin,
but then again seeing an attractive person of the opposite sex and thinking
about sex with them is a SEVERE SIN in itself, right? I get so sick of people
who think they are high and mighty and yet they themselves have many faults
themselves, that really bothers me, but I am not saying I don't, because I do.
We are to forgive ALL MEN and let the Lord decide their final fate, for if we
don't forgive, the worse sin is found in us!
Thank you for posting your comments. My experiences have been so similar to
yours. I have tried so hard for years to not take offense at comments made by
church members. I don't think many realize how hurtful their comments are to
those of us who a trying to live the gospel in spite of our sexual orientation.
The constant comments, although not made directly to me, do hurt. People are
saying these judgmental comments are directed only to those "living in the
lifestyle." Well, deep down it still hurts because I know that I am just like
"them" even though I have chosen to live a celebate life. Can people please
understand how feelings like ours could be this way? I don't think
many know how lonely it is for us in a congregation that tells us to get married
and have kids. If we don't do that, something must be wrong with us. In fact, we
are sinning because we aren't married and having kids as well.
To the party that responded to my comments. My ancestors faced the
persecutions. They were members of the early saints in the church. You truly do
not know church history and how plural marriage was practiced. Please go to the
church archives and B.H.Roberts-"History of the Church" The National Archives
have given their seal of historical accuracy to the church's records. It is so
clever and yet so hypocritical of those who think that their lifestyle MUST BE
ACCEPTED. So much for freedom of religion. Those who hide behind accusations
and intimidation to others deeply held beliefs, are themselves the true mean and
hateful sort. Read Alma chapter 2. The followers of Nehor did that which you
attempt to do today, subtly persecute while claiming kindness and victimhood.
If you want to know where the Lord stands on homosexuality, ask him- sincerely
after having studied ALL his words and counsel.
RE: Dave CrutchfieldYou took my words WAY out of context. Be
realistic. All I am saying is that when two people of the same gender engage in
public displays of affection, that is part of homosexuality, just as public
displays of affection between members of the opposite sex are part of
heterosexuality. But because the lifestyle of heterosexuals is condoned and
permitted and that of homosexuality is not on BYU's campus and in the Church,
gays and lesbians cannot do engage in the same demonstrative acts as straights!
Simple as that. Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.
As a heterosexual I recognize that gay people are sometimes mistreated. As a
result of this discussion I will try to do better about treating them better and
helping them to know that I accept them as people even if I don't like what they
are doing.In return I would hope that homosexuals can try harder to
understand our point of view. Many of us heterosexuals feel very threatened by
gay people because you are constantly throwing the issue in our face and trying
to make us accept homosexuality as being all right. I live in California where
it is practically illegal to say anything negative about homosexuality. If you want to be accepted it would be better to back off and stop
trying to force your agenda on everyone. Stop trying to make us change our
beliefs. Stop calling us names because we don't agree with you. We need to do
the same.Recognize that while you may feel pain because you have
been ostracized many of us also feel pain because our hearts and families have
been broken because of homosexuality.We do not want to live in
Sodom. Please don't try to force us to.
Please settle down all the liberals. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and
Steve. We must take a stand against tolerating this liberal mentality. Respect
peoples choices, but lets not let these ideas infiltrate our already demoralized
I just amazes me how members of the LDS Church feel that the world revolves
around The Church also on how they are so afraid to allow themselves to think
outside of what the Church says it right and wrong. If any Church should be
excepting of others beliefs or points of view it should be the LDS Church. They
preach about how their ancestors survived the persecution from non-believers and
how all they wanted is to be accepted and left alone to believe how and when
they wish. Why cant they do the same? If you dont agree with ones point of view
that is fine, but dont let those views take away others rights to live how they
Take a look at your comments again. Not everyone who is homosexual is trying to
force an agenda in your face. Part of the problem is the blanket statements that
are made when you (I mean you singular) lump us all together and blame us for
what you don't like. Many, so many, of us are living the gospel the
best we can. Who knows, we may even be doing better than you. We don't know. All
we are asking for is to put a stop to the public judgments that we experience.
I didn't say, nor mean to imply, that all homosexuals are trying to force their
agenda. However an awful lot of them are. I am just trying to express why
straight people sometimes feel threatened by homosexuals.Certainly
there are many people with same gender attraction that are in the church who are
living the gospel as well as they can. I respect those people very much. Having
had a homosexual relative I am aware that this is an extremely difficult
temptation to resist for those who suffer from it. It is very damaging to the
self esteem of those involved.I hope that all people in that
position know that there are many many people in the church who care and are
willing to help. We won't reject you for your temptations any more than we want
to be rejected for ours. We aren't perfect. I know that people aren't always
understanding about this issue. We need to do better at reaching out to those
who are honestly striving to overcome this problem.
I have one question in addition to my comments. You state that you are asking
for us to put a stop to the public judgments that you experience. What
specifically do you mean? How can we be less judgmental?I'm asking
this sincerely, not sarcastically. I really want to know. We are not going to
change our beliefs about homosexual activity being a sin but if there is
something that we can change in our behavior so that we can avoid making you
feel like we condemn you or reject you, then tell us. We are willing to improve
on that account.
To Amazing 9:25am:Your characterization of members of the LDS church
as people are "afraid to allow themselves to think outside of what the Church
says is right and wrong" is completely ignorant and insulting. First, we are
encouraged to question the doctrines of the church and find out for ourselves
whether or not they are true. Second, our world does revolve around the
church--it is a lifestyle, not a one-hour Sunday appointment. Third, we are
happy to let homosexuals do whatever they want, except make us change our
doctrine to accomodate their lifestyle. Therein lies the problem--many don't
want to be "left alone," they want to CHANGE what we believe and FORCE us to
validate their actions. I find it "amazing" that you can't see that.
There are a lot worse things in this world then who a person loves. I don't
consider loving someone a "sin". BYU should change their policies. What you do
in you spare time outside of school is no ones business but your own. These
comments make me sad seeing how close minded this state is. What happened to
Love one Another?
Also, I don't believe being gay is a choice. I know some people that wish they
could change it. But you can't change the way you feel. I wish people would stop
looking at it as a "disease" and try to "cure" homosexuality. That is insane.
It is a choice.
I am very excited by this news. No, I do not believe the church will change its
stand and do not want it to because of pressure from gay groups. But we offer no
reason for our gay brothers and sisters not to jump ship and go with the gay
lifestyle. We offer no support, understanding or love. Just disgust and "youre a
sinner". Who would stay for that? We need to offer alternatives. Right now a
person with SSA can choose a life of loneliness and hiding their true feelings
within the church or leaving the church and having love, respect and
understanding and a relationship. When we offer an alternative such as support,
respect for their struggles, honor for them staying strong and not giving in,
lovingly being welcomed into our homes for fellowship, then we may help keep
these beloved sons and daughters strong in the gospel. I hope this is a step
towards that. Thank you so much Pres. Monson for opening up this communication.
I love you and hope that this is the beginning of helping many fine people who
need support and many families who are impacted by this issue. A Mom
I am glad the church is opening an official dialogue with Affirmation, but I
would like to point out that an unofficial dialogue has already been going on as
through conference talks and church discipline. It is very simple:
the church must stay firm when any-person, of any gender or lifestyle, commits
sexual sin. The church, however, must demystify positions about homosexuality.
Many gays and lesbians feel insulted by recommendations to Evergreen or claims
they have the problem.I personally want the discussion to get away
from sex. The dialogue must be in-depth avoiding superficialiality like BYU's
honor-code and the teachings, doctrine, and policy regarding temple-attendance
and temple-marriage. The church has been abundantly clear on both issues, but
maybe a new one needs to be addressed: hatred versus love. Latter-day Saints are called to love everyone. I must love the neighbors who
drink often and party late. I cannot be concerned about the way they live,
instead I must focus on my own personal righteousness. The general membership's
love for every member must be affirmed regardless of how others live or have
lived. Love and hope must be reinforced. Hatred must be avoided, when the gospel
centers on love.
To Ray:I disagree with: "Diversity=Divide." The church and its
members are very diverse. There is nothing to fear from diversity in the general
population of the church. The gospel, however, is simple and applies to everyone
regardless of who they are and how diverse the world and church is. There is no
way for us to be carbon-copies of each other and nor should we pursue this.
To Wendy and the Ogre:Thanks to both of you. Wendy, you make an
excellent point that I don't think many memebers understand. We need to feel
love and be given a viable option. If the Church membership shuns you, then you
feel justified in pursuing whatever lifestyle might seem best. Ogre, you made a similar point. You are right, both of you. These are the
attitudes that Church can promote and this is the positive and effective change
that I hope to see happen in these meetings. The Church has been making efforts
to move members more towards attitudes of love. We just aren't there yet. It
reminds me of a passage from D&C, I think..."I (God) will forgive
whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to love all men."
Yes it is a passage from D&CIts D&C 64:10
"The Lord has not changed his view on the matter and neither can His church."Principles do change and have many times in the course of the LDS Church
history. That is why we have divine revelation. If you don't believe in divine
modern day revelation, you are rejecting your own church and its values. I won't hold my breath for gays to suddenly be welcomed into the fold,
but what hubris to say you know what the Lord wants from now until eternity.
as embracing or condoning or approving behavior choices.you can love
the sinner but still recognize that he is engaged in (and declines to abandon)
harmful behavior.you can love and forgive the sinner without
compromising your values and beliefs.
Damon, my heart goes out to you. I wish more members would take to
heart the message of love and acceptance Christ preached. Hate, judgment and
intolerance are always wrong.I'm heterosexual, but I remember how
hard it was when I was pretty much the only woman my age in the ward who didn't
have children (infertility issues). I sometimes felt that there was no place in
the church for someone who was different. It was very lonely. I can only
imagine how much harder it is to be in your position. I hope you find peace -
in or outside of the LDS church.
If you don't like their rules, what's keeping you in it? Everyone brings up
whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not, and no one brings up whether
religion is a choice or not. There is little difference between the
attitudes of a religious person claiming with every breath that their church is
true and a MLM marketer claiming their product/system will get rid of all your
problems. If the LDS church wants to think the way they do, let them be
close-minded and leave. You won't miss much. I don't.
Many posters insist that to forgive and love homosexuals you must embrace and
accept their values and choices.That is not true.Some
parents find themselves faced with the heart and gut wrenching situation of a
child who has "come out". Often they adapt to the situation by forsaking their
previous beliefs and buying in to the "stepford wives" homosexual mantra;
(it is just the way he is. there is nothing wrong with it. he was
born that way.)But true love means never giving up on your loved
ones, no matter what.It is an incredibly delicate balancing act to
maintain a loving relationship and lines of communication without becoming a
facilitator.(do you paste on blank grin and play nice for "commitment"
ceremony pictures or stay away. etc)You don't have to buy into the
choices to show your "love", in fact true love will help you find the strength
to never give up.Don't give up hoping they will get back on a path
to realize their full potential for joy and happiness.Don't give up
on the one's you really love.Don't get tired and give in.
The scripture says LOVE, not forgive. Similar to, Love thy neighbor. I think
it's fair to say many negative statments given here aren't in the spirit of
loving your fellow man or even in trying to provide any sort of real solution.
Rather, these statements are driven by fear and hate. No one is
saying that you should agree or have to agree, but you can choose not to hate.
You can choose to have compassion, you can choose to try and understand. And
whether or not the "other side" chooses compassion and understanding the
commandment is the same. SLD- I know your pain. I have family
members who have struggled through the same trial. Often, I've found the Church
can be a very lonely place for those of us who don't fit the mold. I appreciate your well wishes for my happiness.
I am a single woman in the church and am expected to remain chaste and clean
until I marry. The LDS church expects the same whether you are gay or straight.
You are to be morally clean. A gay man or lesbian woman CAN go to the temple
if they are not participating in immoral relationships and are trying to stay
pure. If they are not partaking and remain morally clean, they are granted the
same blessings and can fully participate in the church. Why is it that being
gay somehow makes some people think they have a right to break the simple
morality laws? It is not having homosexual tendancies that is the issue as far
as worthiness is concerned. If you are not participating; if you have the urges
and do not participate in the activities; if you are trying to live the laws of
morality and chastity -- you are worthy. I liked what was said in "more to the
equation" -- yes there is more then sex. But that is the LAW that is broken so
often. I have to be morally clean; everyone needs to obey the same standard.
To The Nature of True Love:I appreciate your comments. I agree that
loving (or forgiving) someone doesn't require agreeing with or embracing theri
choices or values. However, I don't think it means that you must
constantly point out where you might disagree and how you believe they ought to
change. This would only breed discontent. Not giving up may mean,
allowing them to make a choice and allowing God to handle it. Not giving up may
mean loving your family member and their partner, even though you don't agree
with the choice they make to be partners. One of the primary
principles of the gospel is agency...ones right to make a decision. If God is
willing to honor that decision and love anyway, shouldn't we?
You are also right. I really do believe it is an incredibly delicate (and
difficult) balancing act. And your comment about agency really is the final
word. Our Father in Heaven loves us all, and loves us enough to let us have our
agency. As earthly parents we can only do the same ultimately.
My dear brethern, Please forgive my English. I decided not to read in advance
the 300 comments above. But Ill read after my own comments. The reason is to
avoid being influenced by the mind of people that has already expressed their
thoughts in so delicate matters.First of all; What is the purpose of the
Gospel, the Calling to repentance, the baptism of water and of the Holly
Ghost?What is the purpose of confering the Melquisedeque Priestwood; the
Temple sealings of the overall families alive or dead?There is only an
answer to all these question: - To guide men through Crist to live with God the
Father in the Celestial Kingdom.How can the gays intend to reach the goal
except they repent to follow Jesus Christ?What other words can the Church
leaderes use to the gay representant?In my judjment the subject is simple
as that: The Church was not put on earth to lead their gays to the high
heavens.In fact The Church is on earth to take people to the Kingdom of
Heaven.There are many marvelous mansions for them out of the Celestial
Homosexulity is one of the major issues confronting our society. These people
have been very unified in their efforts to get their life stule accepted as
normal and have made great progress in the business world and most church. The
L.D.S. Church as God's authorized church has no choice but to stand on the
principles established by God himself. Many writers here are looking forward to
greater acceptance of the homosexual and to love them as the Lord would want us
to do. But we have to clearly let them know that their lifestyle is unacceptable
at all costs.Our schools are teaching it as a alternate lifestyle and our
children are being exposed to this and fortunately the A.D.F. has been
successfully fighting this, and winning. These people will not stop until they
hasve complete acceptance and all the rights of men and women who marry. No
society in history has ever survived that accepted the homosexual lifestyle as
being a normal alternative and neither will ours.
The church is in a pickle on this one, somewhat of its own making. In 1990 the
church leadership (via revelation from God) changed the wording of the law of
chastity. No longer was the law addressed to men and women separately using the
gender specific words "husband" and "wife." Now the law of chastity is defined
as no sex with anyone other than your legally and lawfully married "spouse."The divinely inspired change to the gender neutral "spouse" creates a
situation where a legally married, monogamous same sex couple in Canada is
living the law of chastity as defined by God and his prophets.As
more and more governments legalize marriage for same sex couples, more gay and
lesbian members of the church will be able to live the law of chastity while
remaining in their committed relationships. Perhaps (without changing doctrine,
because God already did that for them in 1990) the church leaders want advice on
how to best assimilate these chaste individuals in wards and stakes.Different question: What about true hermaphrodites? People born with the
genitalia of both sexes in one body. Can they be ordained to the priesthood?
Can they marry? Whom can they marry?
To Ed,Excuse me? "No society in history has ever survived that
accepted the homosexual lifestyle as being a normal alternative and neither will
ours."?? That is one of the most absurd and unsupported statements I
have ever read. Where do you get that from? How do you prove that? The evidence
to the contrary is all around you. You cannot name ONE society that has "fallen"
or been "destroyed" because of homosexuality. Not one! "Sodom and Gomorra" was
NOT a society, nor is there even any reason to believe it was REAL.Quit spewing your hate and telling lies to support it!
To Ed-Do you think that any person within the Church is unclear on
the Churches stance in homosexuality. If someone is unaware, he hasn't been
listening. Schools and society teach a great many things that are
contrary to the ideals and values of the Church. It is a part living in the
world. How do you teach your children that smoking is wrong, but
that people who smoke are not bad? The same for people who might drink? Or
those who might live together unmarried?And more importantly, if
your son or daughter happens to be gay how will they know you love them anyway?
Keeping homosexuality as "abnormal" will not stop homosexuals from
existing. Clearly that isn't the case because that has been historically what
society has taught. You have a duty, a commandment to love your
fellow man, all your fellow man as well as abhor sin. I'm sure you and the
Church does an excellent job in abhoring the sin of homosexuality. Do you do an equally good job of loving the sinner? How have you shown it?
The "lord" didn't comment on gays. He did comment on stone throwers, however.The "lord" did comment on bringing a new law and ditching "an eye for an
eye". Must be nice to pick and choose where the "lord" is unchanging. "Had it not been for a Mother and Father you would not be here." I suppose you
think people with fertility issues shouldn't adopt because they're "not normal",
probably not meant to be parents. Or are you more selective based on what *you*
deem normal?Get off your high horses, hypocrites. Every church is
full of sinners and yours are no better or worse. If the bishops stood up on
Sundays and pointed out the excessive lifestyles most members in the US lead
that blatantly contradict everything scripture says, many of you would have to
slink under the pews in shame. Shame on you for your conditional
compassion. Shame on you for not distinguing between the word of the "lord" and
the word of man.
So many of you keep focusing on the fact that the church will never change it's
policy. As a gay mormon, I have accepted this fact but am irritated by the fact
that most of you who are preaching are probably married and heterosexual. It
bothers me that some of you are so quick to speak out against the "evils" of
homosexuality, without ever having experienced the abuse, disrespect, and hatred
that gays experience in the church. I personally support the church's stance on
moral cleanliness and eternal marriage but there is no doubt that many people in
the church get away with injust treatment and judgment toward people simply for
being gay or affeminate. I don't expect the church to change it's policies, but
I think that more needs to be done to stop abuse and discrimination, and also
provide better resources for people like me.
Will we get a follow up on the content of the meeting? Has it occurred yet?
Please give more details!
It's scientific fact that the fetus, which always starts off with the default
female form, while in the womb, is affected by the hormone levels of the mother
which can influence brain gendering, (what gender you identify yourself as) in
the secondary hormone blast to the fetus, as well as the formation of the
genitalia, (first hormone blast to the fetus), which gives each human unique
combinations of both masculine and feminine traits.Gays, Lesbians
and Transgendered are born who they are. We are created in the womb.There
have also been scientific studies with pheromones and the sexual response
centers of brain which resulted in proving that Lesbians' brains respond almost
identically to woman as a straight Male's brain does and Gay men's brains
responded the same as a straight Female's brain does. Thus, proof of the
biological response in sexual attractions. When the church practiced
polygamy - it was a Man and multiple Women, which changed because the goverment
made it illegal and so Utah could become a state. Many states are legalizing
same-sex unions, so why can't the Church adapt to the light of new science and
accept their Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered Brothers and Sisters?