Deseret News | Sportsmanship making a comeback in church basketball

Reader comments
Sportsmanship making a comeback in church basketball

Are you nuts? | 3:35 p.m. April 5, 2008

the last time i played church ball , the has beens went toe to toe, swore and called names i can't repeat. This is funny!

Anonymous | 5:18 p.m. April 5, 2008

Unfortunately, the referees are the biggest problem in Church basketball. If ever there was a group that can be cited as evidence that LDS are not Christian, it is the referees!

So this scoring system is worthless without good referees.

Who scores the referees?

Anonymous | 5:34 p.m. April 5, 2008

The lack of sportsmanship in the LDS Church is the direct result of the Church's doctrine and culture.

Mormons are so proud of their testimonies. They are so proud of their superior spiritual knowledge. They are so proud of the "truth" of their Church and the false-ness of everyone else. Their religion is fundamentally competitive.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 7:14 p.m. April 5, 2008

A man had sooner turn back the tide of the Missouri river than to stop the unsportsmanlike conduct in Church basketball.

Unfair representation | 8:51 p.m. April 5, 2008

My experience is that by and large the majority of "church" games were very positive and well played. The Anonymous commenter above clearly has an axe to grind. Glad to here the program is seeing a resurgence.

Herb S. | 8:58 p.m. April 5, 2008

Church basketball is the reason I left the church ten years ago. I have never seen such unChristian behavior in my entire life! And from stake presidents and bishops no less!

It became clear then that most of the people in the Church are there for a social club, not out of genuine conviction. That is why they treat others the way they do, play favorites, cover one another's sins, play politics, preach one thing and live another thing, and condemn others who are not like themselves.

I will never set foot inside another Mormon church as long as I live.

RE: Herb S. | 10:03 p.m. April 5, 2008

Herb,

Yes the church is made of imperfect people. But to say that you left the church because of what some immature people did on the basketball court really is pointing the finger as how immature and ingnorant you are about the church. Church basketabll is not the Church. For this to mean so much to you that you left the church shows how immature and ignorant your "conviction" was.

Why not choose to never play church ball again, but to immerse yourself in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you can't see the difference between the two--it is a crying shame on you.

ridgerunner | 1:28 a.m. April 6, 2008

To Herb,
I am ashamed to admit that when I was younger and had not conquered the pride in my life, I too did and said things on the church basketball court that I still regret. Since then I have asked many others to please forgive me and I still worry that what I did and said might have harmed someone's testimony. I ask you to forgive me and those like me. I hope you will reconsider your choice and come back. I hope I have repented of my bad behavior and that the Lord has forgiven me. I feel he has done so. I hope you will as well. Thank you

Re: Herb comment | 1:36 a.m. April 6, 2008

Well said. I also doubt the sincerity of Herb and wonder if he was even a member or invitee that only came out to some of the basketball games. Sounds like someone with an ax to grind.

From playing BB with guys from virtually all religions, I can tell you it is insane to judge them or their religion by how they play and act on the court. People in general can get too competitive in sports sometimes and can otherwise still be really good people in life! Is this not the definition of being human?

Fun times | 2:00 a.m. April 6, 2008

I have played church ball for 25 years and very seldom have I seen very poor sportsmanship. Mostly good, clean fun. When I played county rec that's where I saw lots of bad sportsmanship and dirty elbows.

Ron | 2:12 a.m. April 6, 2008

Church Ball? What a joke! Must be a very slow day for news. Sportsmanship? Give me break!
Of all the things that deserve attention in the world concerning the church, this is near the bottom of the list. Right below the selected brand name of TP used at church facilities!
Get a life! The same should be said to all those who are so consumed with church ball that this article is big news!
The rest of the LDS world laughs or scratches their heads at the follies "behind the Zion curtain".

Anonymous | 6:34 a.m. April 6, 2008

...only in Utah would you have enough members to even staff such a sports program and then have to worry about sportsmanship. Outside of Utah we struggle to maintain people in basic ecclesiastical positions of the church. Perhaps you all need another ward calling where you can burn your extra liesure time... better yet ... go do your home teaching!

Career Church Baller | 7:48 a.m. April 6, 2008

I've often wondered if church leaders could weigh the benefits of church basketball against the expense of courts, time, and lost souls, would they consider the entire program worth it. I've concluded that it would be retained, in that it provides us an opportunity to analyze our own behavior, and correct it. Yes, I have seen some unchristian behavior on the court, but I have also seen guys who were able to correct that behavior and forgive others' bad behavior. A previous post is correct. Most games go on without any major problems, but it's the ones that go south that we really remember. Let's try to give the refs and players the benefit of the doubt as we play these games!

A little more understanding | 8:05 a.m. April 6, 2008

Fellow LDS members, let's respond with a little more kindness and empathy to what people have to say, even if it feels we're being attacked. If someone had a bad experience, let's try to understand them. Many of you are making great points, such as the fact that a majority of games are well-played, or that, even when they're not, it's important to separate the church doctrine from the behavior of some of our members. But then we insert a dagger at the end with statements like "has an axe to grind" or "immature and ignorant" or "crying shame on you." I can guarantee this is not going to fellowship people back into the church, which is a portion of what the basketball program is designed to do.

BCB | 8:27 a.m. April 6, 2008

I think this is great. To the first anonymous commenter, I have been to many basketball games from the pros to college to high school to 5 yr old peewee games and everywhere in between and the fans seem to -much of the time- think the refs were not very good. Especially when you are on the losing side. The players are not perfect, why should you think the refs would be? They do their best for the level they are at. The refs are part of the game too. Sometimes they miss the call - so what? Do you sometimes miss a shot? Come on, get a life. Blaming the refs is straining at a mote and missing the beam. Honestly ask yourself, are you one of the hotheads that they made these rules for?

Baller | 8:29 a.m. April 6, 2008

I would love to see this done in my stake. It took one of our players moving away to get me to come back and play, the sportsmanship has gotten better but there still continues to be whining. I don't think you can legitimately complain about the refs, we have a hard enough time getting people to come ref - there's no training program and no qualifications set forth. In any sport you're going to get bad calls - it's how you respond to those calls that matters.
I don't think I could consider poor sportsmanship as a valid excuse for separating myself from the Lord's church - I do let it keep me from going to games or wanting to sub in.

Ed Meyer | 8:29 a.m. April 6, 2008

I played and officiated church basketball for years. I also played in the community recreation leagues with many non-LDS players. In both instances, there were hotheads who reduced the fun of playing the game. I don't think this is just an LDS issue though those who profess to follow a religion need to continually reassess their behavior whether in sports or other aspects of life. I applaud the effort to reward sportsmanship and punish those who are poor sports. My only recommendation would be for points to be deducted during the game...not afterwards where I could see a really explosive environment. Rather, and I would like to see this in all basketball including the pros, why not deduct points where a behavior-related technical foul is assessed.... as well as awarding the foul shot? When the outcome of a game is impacted by poor behavior, you will see coaches and, in the base of professional sports, team owners take corrective action. I would love to see this played out on national television where a clear message regarding appropriate behavior could be sent to our youth.

Love Of The Game | 8:57 a.m. April 6, 2008

I play church ball in Midvale's 4th ward. I have loved church basketball since before I was able to play. Yes, there are a few idiot's out there. You can find them driving down the freeway or in a basketball game.

Recently in our ward we made an effort to get a few more elders, that weren't to active in the church, out to play. It worked very well and the elders quorum got closer together and a few even showed up to church more often. Basically, mission accomplished. Ward basketball is really to bring people out to know one another, encourage activity, and to help the Lord find a few of his sheep.

Alfred L. | 9:07 a.m. April 6, 2008

Imperfect (other) players, imperfect referees? Sure! But, participants need to recognize that the nature of basketball can bring out the worst in them. They need to make an effort to control their tempers and live their religion on the court, as well as off.

Many of us can point to incidents that back up our view that church ball is dangerous to our spiritual health, drives people away from church participation, etc. Like most movies of its kind, Church Ball portrays a caricature of the subject, but I think most observers would recognize a grain of truth in its message.

I tried to introduce a sportsmanship scoring system into our stake sports program quite a few years ago, but I moved away before seeing it adopted. My idea was to have each team rated by both the other team and the officials, with full accountability to priesthood leaders through the sports director.

The initiative described in the article is a welcome development. I hope it goes church wide. Then I might even enjoy watching a game... Who knows?

It really isnt that bad | 10:52 a.m. April 6, 2008

I am quite the church ball player and love to play for fun and to compete. I live in Kaysville and I can honestly say that maybe 1 out of every 15 games get out of hand. I have seen 3 convert baptisms come from church sports alone. Church ball gets its bad repuation from a few people being hot heads. Everyone just realize that no one is perfect and that it is all just a game.

CMiller5 | 11:05 a.m. April 6, 2008

It is interesting how when people leave the church they can't seem to leave the church alone? I was inactive for a number of years and knew in my heart why I bashed the Church, because deep down i knew I was throwing away something that was pure and essential in my life.

Chad | 11:30 a.m. April 6, 2008

At the age of 16 I watched an opposing player punch my team mate in the face. They were struggling to get the basektball, my team mate had possession of it, and the other player doubled up his fist and punched him square in the nose, breaking it and spreading blood all over the court. He then took the ball, dribbled down court while I and the rest of my team ran onto the court in the opposite direction to check on our fried, and promptly scored a layup.

The ref? Was standing in full view of the incident, which was somewhat shielded, and he did nothing. Funny thing..the ref was the father of the kid doing the punching, and also on the high council. The kid? Highly respected eagle scout, on several stake boards. The result? My friend was forced to leave the game to go to the hospital. The ref made the game continue which his son's team won with much jubilation. No apology. No sign of regret. You see, that game meant his son's team went on the play in the region tournament. That was far more important than being a good person.

Church-ball should end.

Tony | 12:02 p.m. April 6, 2008

For some reason, my previous posts haven't been posted even though there was no objectionable content (perhaps the editors can give us a clue?). My point was that church basketball in my experience was more of a hinderance to people than a help. If you play playground basketball in say LA, there are far fewer problems because there is a strict code of conduct and jerks just are not welcomed back. I found it far easier to adapt to asphalt basketball in LA, where I was often the only white guy, than to Utah church and rec league basketball. Nonetheless, I invite Herb back to church or maybe a good motorcycle ride.

Long ago hoopster | 1:20 p.m. April 6, 2008

I am ashamed to say I had my days when my church ball demeanor was more of a thug than a Saint. As I matured, I came to see church ball is like any other opportunity for improvement.

The Lord doesn't do away with the Word of Wisdom because some members of the church choose to drink or smoke.

Church ball gave us an opportunity to see our weaknesses and learn to overcome them. As in all such things, people come and go based on their right to choose what they do. The reasons for assailing church ball usually are more excuses to avoid the self-discipline required to be a member of the LDS Church.

When one wants to do only what one wants to do, any excuse works.

Tony | 2:06 p.m. April 6, 2008

Sorry long ago, churchball thugs are a hinderance to many people and putting up with other's bad church ball behavior does little to spiritually enhance a person. I'm pretty sure Moses will be redeemed even though he probably ain't got game.

City League v/s Church Ball | 3:11 p.m. April 6, 2008

Having played basketball all the way to the collegiate level, and still to this day activily play county/city ball, I can honestly say the worst basketball ever played is church run basketball.

I say that as an active, devout member of the LDS church.

True, some players think they are playing for the NBA finals, and therefore play like fools, causing tempers to flair. Most players however are great people, truly gathered to fellowship and enjoy one another.

The single greatest reason for problems with church basketball is the officiating! When you have men competing, competitive nature will natural want to take over. The goal of the game is to win of course (that does not make them bad people does it). When you pull two men out of the audience 2 minutes before the game starts, who know nothing about the game, how can you expect them to "control the game".

You want sportmanship to return to the court: 1 Don't let someone run the program simply because they are a good spiritual leader. 2. Run the program with some level of competence.

In an entire city league season you may only see 1 techincal foul - churchball 10

re:love of the game/not that bad | 6:14 p.m. April 6, 2008

I'll admit it gives gym rats the opportunity to pretend they are as athletic as the players they watch on TV, but in a church modeled after the church Christ established in the earth, I have yeat to see a mention in the New Testament or Book of Mormon about church athletics.

The church should do away with athletics completely and worry more about the family, the gospel, and the evil in the world.

I coached highschool basketball before my daughters were born, and have been asked several times (told twice) to coach our youngmen's team. Too bad I have a testimony of the gospel and it does not include seeing a bunch of kids beat each other and go to school the next day, one group victorious and the other humiliated.

When I become prophet, the first thing I do, after going to a Jazz game, is eliminate church athletics.

alternative option | 6:40 p.m. April 6, 2008

We had a big problem with sportsmanship when I was a youth playing church ball. Our bishop told us if he heard one more curse, or if we got one more technical he would cancel our ward's team for the rest of the time he was Bishop -- needless to say, the "hot heads" cooled off.

the next session my stake decided that the Ref's were not getting enough respect, so they decided that we would call our own games. That also did wonders for improving sportsmanship because if someone called a cheap foul on one end, it would be compensated on the other and we were able to just play and have fun.

Church Ball Fan | 9:11 p.m. April 6, 2008

I've played church ball in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and Utah. Yes, there is church ball outside of Utah. For me it is a very positive experience. Through church basketball I have built positive relationships with brethren in the ward by being on a team with a common goal. I've also developed relationships with other members of the stake through church basketball. As one who moves around a lot, it's not always easy to make friends and build relationships in normal church settings. Church Basketball has done wonders for me, and I am a big supporter.

Occasionally a game or player does get out of hand when there is a close game where the ward that hasn't lost in a decade is challenged. The problem is the competitive nature of men, the power and drive to win, where they lose control in a heated situation. It's not that LDS members have inferior sportsmanship than other people, I would say the average latter-day saint actually has better sportsmanship. The LDS church just happens to sponsor a basketball program which is not the most efficiently run. For the most part, Church Ball games are a fun positive experience for everyone.

Linus | 9:57 p.m. April 6, 2008

When I was sixteen years old, I finished a church ball game, and went into the church shower/dressing room where both teams shared the showers. I don't remember who won the game. I was tapped on the shoulder and turned into a fist in the mouth. I had bloody lips, bloody gums, and a loose tooth. The fist was broken very badly, and stayed in a series of casts for months, and came out with an ugly, deformed knuckle. I came to feel bad for the owner of the fist.

Funny thing, I never ever felt that the behavior of that fellow had anything to do with my relationship with my Heavenly Father or with His Son, Jesus Christ, or with the Church they restored. Sorry, still can't see a connection. So I just kept going to church. It makes me happy. Why not be happy?

I agree | 10:37 p.m. April 6, 2008

Sure, it will be nice to have better sportsmanship among the players, but honestly, a mojority of the techs and whatnot I've seen could hav been avoided if it was call-you-own fouls. I coached a team recently and was blown away by the attitudes of the officials. It seemed as though they had a quota of techs to give out. One was given to a player who merely asked what the call was, and later on that same ref was yelling at my kids to "shut your mouth." I've played ball my whole life and never heard that from an official, I've been told to be quiet, and to not complain or talk back, but never in such a confrontational way. After the tech was given to the above mentioned kid, I went to the ref for an explanation only to have him place his forearm on my chest and tell me to get back. Fixing half the problem doesnt make it go away. The thing to remember is that alot of the players are young kids, and they can be easily rattled, its part of being a teen!

c.j miles fan | 10:40 p.m. April 6, 2008

i'm a innactive lds member have been since i was 10 years old,i have no desire to go back to church but i always play church basketball,i have seen some scuffles but nothing i don't see @ the gym or anywhere else. (we won 1 region championship & runner up the following year when i was in high school 97-99. point of this is that was some of the funnest & most exciting games i have played in. those are memories that stick with ya & something i can still talk about with the fellas when i see them. fyi i have played on superleague teams ,jr high,high school ect.

Tony | 8:34 p.m. April 7, 2008

Call your own fouls because the new rule becomes "he who has the least conscience has the edge." And believe me, LDS ward ball has a LOT of people without a conscience. I agree that the church needs real officials but call your own has NO chance working.

Cojo | 2:27 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009

I love church basketball. It is just so much fun to throw elbows and chop-block innocent little deacons. JT, is the babe of our team that kicks booty every year. Cory, Not Corey, is a stud rebounder that is such a ladies man. Dang, that kid is good. But Church ball is fun.

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