Deseret News | LDS Church will seek landmark designation for Mountain Meadows

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LDS Church will seek landmark designation for Mountain Meadows

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Mark | 11:59 a.m. March 28, 2008

Excellent. All good moves to preserve the integrity of the site. I can't imagine anyone wanting to builid a home on the site of the MMM!

Matt | 12:09 p.m. March 28, 2008

I'm very happy with the designation. This should have been a National Historic Site years ago.

On another note, I have to say that I am a bit disgusted with the mormon church posturing itself as if it was THEIR idea.

What hubris.

The right thing to do... | 12:03 p.m. March 28, 2008

This was the right thing to do. The land should be out of the hands of the church. This was the express wishes of the descendants, I'm not sure why it took this long to have the church agree to it, but is the right thing to do. Leaving it in the hands of the church is (not exactly, but some have made this comparison...) like have the Nazi party own the land memorializing the vicitms of Auschwitz.

Comments continue below

I hope ... | 12:06 p.m. March 28, 2008

... folks can move on now.

Descendant | 12:18 p.m. March 28, 2008

Perhaps there can be closer to descendants on both sides. This has gone on long enough! People only want answers and their seem to be none. It's time to close the lid on this whole terrible event and go forth with all our lives. I hope and pray that the mean angry websites out there, with ugly lies, disappear, because they bring NO PEACE, and only breed hatred. Let there be peace and forgiveness among all our people once and for all. God Bless everyone!

Jay | 12:35 p.m. March 28, 2008

Sounds like the LDS Church is making big steps to reconcile for the acts of its members so many years ago. The lives of those who were murdered can never be restored but they can be honored and remembered. I applaud the LDS Church for this contrite act.

Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. March 28, 2008

And He saw it and said:
"It is good."

Sparkes22 | 12:55 p.m. March 28, 2008

This is wonderful news! Kudos to Elder Jensen, Mormon church leadership and the good people of Arkansas who are decedents of those who were deceived and then killed at Mountain Meadow 150 years ago. This outcome demonstrates that even the most troubled waters can be safely traversed with patience, understanding and a healthy dose of bi-directional charity.

Ownership | 1:07 p.m. March 28, 2008

The land might be better off if left under LDS Church control. They've taken steps to preserve the area and will maintain it. We don't know if the Parks Division will always have the resources to maintain it.

Darwin | 1:15 p.m. March 28, 2008

I think the church should trade the MMM site for the Martin's Cove site in WY.

Ray | 1:23 p.m. March 28, 2008

My family shed tears of relief and joy at this news!

I am certain most of the LDS who have made insensitive, disparaging comments on these stories for several months have NO IDEA how important this is to those of us who are descendants of the Fancher party. All we can say now is try to learn from your leaders, and soften your hearts.

Joe Mama | 1:26 p.m. March 28, 2008

Hey Matt, where in the article does it give the impression that it was the Church's idea to make this designation? It's pretty obvious that the Church is agreeing to what was requested by the descendent groups. Take your hatred elsewhere...

And, to The right thing to do...comparing the Church's ownership of this land to that of the Nazis owning the land upon which Auschwitz stood is a very, very bold statment to make, and is very far reaching. Totally different things. Statements like that just fuel the fire, and this should have been resolved years ago.

Let it be | 1:40 p.m. March 28, 2008

Oh Matt my boy! Give a break and take your contention somewhere else. We only want peace, and a true peace of mind for all those who directly descend down from these people, on both sides. Let it rest... buddy. No one today is responsible for the massacre. It is the past. It is now in Gods hands. So find it in your heart to forgive. If you had an ancestor involved than forgive for the sake of the dead. let it rest.

As usual, Matt | 1:34 p.m. March 28, 2008

You generated your own imagined version of what was said, as if the rest of us did not know better.

Jaye | 1:35 p.m. March 28, 2008

It certainly appears that President Monson is taking the Church in the right direction.

I am interested in seeing what other changes he brings about.

Re: Matt | 1:49 p.m. March 28, 2008

The LDS Church did not posture itself to indicate that this was their idea. The descendants of the victims met with the Church and asked them to take this step and the LDS Church responded. I understand you may have a strong dislike for the LDS Church, but at least get your facts right. Makes for a more meaningful and intelligent dialogue.

Reason Why | 2:05 p.m. March 28, 2008

I read an account of what motivated the mormons and indians to kill these settlers from Arkansas were killed in BH Roberts History of the Church.

They poisoned watering holes used by Indians and they taunted the Mormons telling them, I raped your daughter in Missouri, I whipped your people when you were back east, I killed your people.

Killing these people was wrong, they should have been arrested and tried for their crimes.

Mary | 1:59 p.m. March 28, 2008

Ownership,
You have a good point. However, I think they should probably help maintain the site themselves. If it is important to them I think they will do so. Just as we do our family graves. I'm happy the church has given them this opportunity. It will be more peaceful for us all.

Jess | 2:19 p.m. March 28, 2008

My ancestors were the victims (along with many others) of a terrible crime similar to that being discussed here - albeit in another country.

I am dismayed at the attitudes of the ancestors of the victims in this case. I have found great peace and joy in the solace and quiet remembrance of my ancestors who suffered such. I do not expect apologies from the organization(s) whose members committed the atrocities nor do I expect apologies from their descendants - I greet them with compassion. I seek no memorial - rather I would be thrilled to find the area kept well. There is no existing threat from this group now. I do not seek justice. After so many generations, this can only be given by the Almighty.

I find it so sad you, as descendants of victims, have spent so much precious time and energy - your lives seeking the land and apologies. Is this how you define yourselves? How sad!

There is so much more to life.

RE: RAY | 2:21 p.m. March 28, 2008

Ray, I agree with you in the joy of the news, but I have also read extremely hateful comments from both sides of the fence, and even more coming from people who don't belong to the church. I believe now there should be peace and forgiveness from both sides. I have been thinking of joining the Mormons so this has all been quite interesting to me. I pray for peace to come to you as you try to forgive. Good luck!

ALSO: I did a count of all the negative comments on these posts to see where they were mostly coming from... It will surprise you.

A Descendant | 2:56 p.m. March 28, 2008

Dear Jess
God bless you. Thank you so much for your wonderful words. You are very special and I love you. Your message was so wonderful and means so much to so many of us. You are a wonderful person and are much appreciated. God bless you always.

A descendant of a perpetrator.

No Reason | 2:55 p.m. March 28, 2008

Some of my ancestors lived in the Cedar City area at the time of the massacre. I had heard the reasons offered in Reason Why's post to explain the motivation of those who participated in the massacre. Then one day a few years ago I stood at the MMM monument and read the names and ages of the victims. I realized few, and probably none, of the victims participated in the Missouri persecutions. I have found no justification for the action. For several reasons I don't believe Brigham Young ordered it. One very practical reason is that he knew the country was watching, through the reports of journalists, as the US Army was approaching to invade Utah. He wanted his people to be seen as the victims, not the perpetrators. The MMM did not make sense in his plans.

Ray | 3:06 p.m. March 28, 2008

Jess,

Your self-righteous judgment is sad.

Not everybody is like you. Not everybody thinks they are so virtuous as you.

It is natural and appropriate that we mourn our loss and seek to have our ancestors remembered.

To condemn our efforts for remembrance is pathetic. You need to rethink your morals.

Sparkes22 | 3:09 p.m. March 28, 2008

Ray, as a member of the Mormon Church may I say two things to you:

1. We both feel and share your joy.

2. From your lips to Gods ears!

Thank you for being so patient with us along the way. This moment could not have been experienced were it not for your group's diplomacy and willingness to hang in there while we as a people searched our own souls for the courage to both confront and admit our own mistakes and transgressions.

RE: Jaye | 3:21 p.m. March 28, 2008

I also think it is nice that current LDS leadership wants to place a memorial on the site where previous LDS leadership had ordered the slaughter of 120 innocents that included women and children. This is one "fine" organization.

Catholic friend | 3:32 p.m. March 28, 2008

Ray,
You are a very hateful person and need to find forgiveness for you judgmental and angry behavior. It is sad that there are people like you who only run on hate.

To Jess, Thank you for having a true vision of righteousness.

Confused | 3:29 p.m. March 28, 2008

All though I think the LDS church has bent over backwards for the descendent of the victims.
Like Jess said, Why are they seeking the land and apologies?

To me, this seems like another ploy to "Bash the Mormons". Why else would they even care? Please don't tell me about righting a wrong in the past. If that was the case then the American Indians should be able to boot all of you out and have their land back. No one seems to care about the innocent slaughter of other groups of people (especially the Indians).

So based on the Francer descendents thought prrocess, we as LDS should be able to hound any Missourian for the loss of life, property and freedoms, that they took from our ancestors, Correct?

People who tend to look backwards, never seems to progress.

Pin the tail on the Donkey! | 3:47 p.m. March 28, 2008

I always heard Brigham Young covered his tracks with the massacre. It was easier to blame the Mormon converts of the church for the massacre. After all B.Y. was their leader and pretty much push his weight around with all the members. Although, God knows the truth. So, I feel sorry for both sides who were mislead by this man. God will see the true perpetrator for who he truly is in the end.

Jess | 4:06 p.m. March 28, 2008

Now Ray, I never said I was virtuous (nor do I believe I am, I have a long way to go to reach that point), but as one descendant of a victim to another, I just find your circumstances sad.

I have never found that apologies from others have given me peace - I have had to find that myself without expectations of others. Of course it is natural and appropriate to remember and mourn loved ones. Never did I state in my last post otherwise. I just could not find it in me to force others to memorialize and mourn my loved ones (I actually can't see that my ancestors would give a hoot if anyone outside the family remembered them or not). I fear your anger and bitterness has blinded you to what I was saying.

I feel very sorry for you Ray and wish I could share the peace I have with you. Will you stop being angry because you have a piece of land?

To A Descendant: There is too much bitterness and resentment in this world . I wish a wonderful life for you :-)

Heather | 4:10 p.m. March 28, 2008

Jess,

They are not wrong to want to make sure that their ancestors remains are cared for and to make sure that this moment in history is never forgotten.

Have we as Mormons not created historical sites, memorials, and cared for the remains of our ancestors who were slaughtered? Have we too not sought out to make sure that history will never forget the awful events that took the lives of Latter-day saints because of religious persecution? How then can we do anything but share in their happiness that they can be at peace and the moment in history will not be forgotten?

George24 | 4:27 p.m. March 28, 2008

Perhaps a joint effort by both the LDS Church and a group from Arkansas could oversee the site together to preserve this important historical location. Both have a vested interest and are actively engaged in it's preservation.

Matt | 4:34 p.m. March 28, 2008

There was nothing in the article that suggested that this "church" is posturing themselves. It just IS. If it really wanted to do this it would have been done decades ago, am I wrong?

Nope. It is only doing this now because of all the publicity that MMM has received of late.

Historic Preservation Attorney | 4:37 p.m. March 28, 2008

I think this is the right thing to do, but unless there's more to this deal than reported by the DesNews, it's largely a symbolic gesture and nothing more. Yes, there will be a bronze plaque indicating that the site is a National Historic Landmark. But there will be no government oversight on the disposition and managmenet of the property. There is no requirement that the state or federal government own the property. And no special protections under federal law apply. Simply stated, unless Utah law imposes special protections for designated NHLs, there's no teeth to NHL listing. (The only possible protection could come in the form of perhaps impacting BLM/US Forest Service actions on adjoining lands that could affect the NHL, as a result of consultation requirements under Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act.)

So, barring any other deal here, the Church will still control the disposition and management of this property--a good thing, in my view, as it will ensure better funding and upkeep than a financially strapped federal or state government.

re:JESS | 4:44 p.m. March 28, 2008

You are great!!! I want to thank you for seeing all points of views. It is nice that you have a broad mind and a good mind. You are one in a million.

re: Heather, I think Jess realizes what you are saying. She just isn't one of those sitting around dwelling in hatred, as many do on these sites. You should be grateful for her as I am.

RE-- Matt | 5:03 p.m. March 28, 2008

Matt
Nobody really cares about the massacre in the rest of the world. Just you and a few mormons care about it. There is no publicity on the massacre anywhere that I am aware of...hummm? You must be dreaming or wishful thinking or something, because i live out side of the state of Utah and NO ONE ever brings it up anywhere. You are a funny man! Was publicity your ONLY and whole intent for the monument deal done today that was presented by the church? Shame on you!!!! Who do you think you are Gods Judge here on earth of the whole terrible event of 150 yrs ago? GEEZE Guy!

Cal Reader | 5:00 p.m. March 28, 2008

If the LDS Church has control over the sight, they'll have missionaries working there and show the Hahns Mill Legacy film.

Jess | 5:15 p.m. March 28, 2008

Heather: Again, I think it is marvelous to remember those who have gone on before us. I have never disputed that. What I have said, as a descendant of victims of a heinous crime, is that peace is not found in monuments or land or apologies.

I do appreciate yours and Ray's opinions however.

I also understand those Mormons have already taken great care of the sites involved. How wonderful!

If I could end my comments here with one thought (I am going outdoors to enjoy some time with our kids): I earnestly believe that it is much easier to be a descendant of a victim, than a descendant of a perpetrator. How hard it must be for them!

Peace to all!! :-)

Jan | 5:18 p.m. March 28, 2008

RE: Historic Preservation Attorney
Thanks for you comment it was very much needed. Perhaps it will help some of us lame-brains on here, and help those who want to argue about nothing....THANKS AGAIN :o)))

Heather | 5:39 p.m. March 28, 2008

What an absurd a comment that the Church owning the land is like "...the Nazi party own the land memorializing the victims of Auschwitz." Hitler was raised as a Catholic. I'd never be so ignorant to think that his actions were anyway associated with the Catholic Church. Saying that the LDS Church is responsible for the evil acts of its members is just like saying that the Catholic Church is responsible for Hitler.

Ray | 5:40 p.m. March 28, 2008

Jess,

Once again, you are one messed up person. You are the one judging and condemning. How is that "finding peace"? Only at the expense of others.

You know nothing of the peace I have or have not found. This is simply about a memorial that is long overdue. You have no business judging or condemning those who have sought this memorial for so long. Now the memorial will be created and preserved and officially recognized. That is all that matters. Unfortunately, too many Mormons are so defensive that they have been outright rude and insensitive of those of us who have suffered. What a shame.

ron | 5:52 p.m. March 28, 2008

I am glad this situation in all our lives is now being settled. For those of you who want to continue the diatribe or anger, go back to father adam and eve. after all, are they not to blame? Didn't they raise a son that killed their other son? I think we should raise a monument of adam and eve and put it in our schools. Oops sorry, that is another matter. While we are on the land subject. How about that arkansan that took our grand staircase away? Could we get him to restore that to us???

Anonymous | 6:01 p.m. March 28, 2008

Wow! The LDS authorities caving on this issue!
What's next?
A formal apology for excluding blacks from the priesthood?

Matt | 6:02 p.m. March 28, 2008

100% correct. Nobody outside of Utah gives 2 whits about MMM. Where is MMM? UTAH! Where is the greatest population of mormons? UTAH. We're not talking about anyplace else BUT utah.

Geez indeed.

Anne | 6:21 p.m. March 28, 2008

The people who are grumbling on here are all from the same group. Nobody else wants to fight with them, so they cannot control spouting off at everyone and everything. I say to you guys. Calm down and smell the roses.

I am happy that some us people from both sides are getting along and making a mends to the sad past. Lets rejoice in good communications in the future. And forgiveness to all!

Hey Matt | 7:41 p.m. March 28, 2008

Who else do you hate? Are you equal opportunity? Or, are you a little more selective? Hopefully your ancestors never did anything bad or were involved in something that later came to be seen as morally reprehensible.

Everyone else, remember that some people are full of hate and there's nothing we can do about it. It's wonderful that both sides are coming together in this matter.

Those that are hateful on both sides, try reading a good relaxing book with a happy ending.

Curtis Allen | 8:04 p.m. March 28, 2008

I am amazed at the number of descendants (not "decedents" as one wrote) of the Fancher train who have read the article. I hope they will realize that many of the comments are from people who have either a total lack of knowledge of the actual history of 151 years ago or just want to make noise. The accidental traverse of most of Utah bay a group of families during the most stressful period of the territory's history was deadly. Many with the army on its march made it clear their intent was to destroy Mormonism. They had heard this three times before. They were hoarding their supplies the immigrants had hoped to buy to replenish their own supplies before going into the desert. Is it not likely they reacted with some rancor? The settlers were already scared to death. Yet, nothing short of an all-out attack on the settlements could even start to justify what was done. I would not liked to have been in the position of any of them. My own experiences in Korea were enough for a lifetime. I say, with hope, peace to all, please.

Peace Train | 9:14 p.m. March 28, 2008

Right on!!... Anne & 7:41 pm comment! I agree with both of you. We must all pray for Matt, Ray, and possible Heather. they need our prayers. After all they along with us, are all children of the same God.

Peace to the world!

Piute guy | 10:29 p.m. March 28, 2008

Here we go again ..first it was Columbus who was lost, then it was the Boston Tea Party, Now it is this, somehow always at the expense of Indians(I have never been to India and probably never will) to make everyone feel better. And I like how it is mentioned on how both sides are getting together on this yet there were three sides effected.

perpetrator's ancestor | 10:50 p.m. March 28, 2008

I'm not sure how many of these people that have blessed us with there misinformed posts have ever been to the MMM site. there would not even be a site if it wasn't for the LDS church. i was present when our last president dedicated the site. it is one of the most depressing places i have ever been, much like the USS Arizona memorial. it is wrong to base your opinions on one sided information. if you really want to state your opinion then read and find out all the info from all sides. this event is not something that the LDS church advertises and most Mormons know nothing about it, so it's not some kind of giant Mormon conspiracy. no matter how i look at what happened it wasn't right but if you read all the facts about the paranoia ,fear , and past actions against the people in the area, it at least makes it more understandable.

Heather | 11:02 p.m. March 28, 2008

Peace Train,

Possibly Heather? Well thank you! Prayers are always good. I'm a bit lost as to why I might possibly need them. How does that work anyway? Just send the blessing to Matt and Ray, and if there are any left over, send them my way too?

I'll stop teasing you, but I hope you realize you've completely missed where I'm coming from in all this. I support the Church and the descendants groups who together are seeking to have this made a historical site. I don't agree with Jess's view point that it's sad that the descendants have spent their time and energy on this. If my ancestors were killed at Haun's Mill, then buried in a mass grave, and I didn't feel the memorial was fitting, I would seek to have something done about it too. I wouldn't care about apologizes either, but I would want to make sure that my ancestors were properly cared for.

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