Reader comments
Mountain Meadows meetings in Arkansas
155 comments | Read story
Anonymous | 5:39 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:Notamember/spectator...so what you're basically saying is...victims of
cold blooded murder are also to blame because it takes two to tango?
A cab driver who is murdered by his fare is also to blame?
A store clerk who is murdered by a robber is also to blame?
Do you believe that children who are murdered by their parents are also partly to blame?
It takes two to tango...oy-flippety-vey!
A cab driver who is murdered by his fare is also to blame?
A store clerk who is murdered by a robber is also to blame?
Do you believe that children who are murdered by their parents are also partly to blame?
It takes two to tango...oy-flippety-vey!
Anonymous | 5:48 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re: Anon's comment at 4:13 p.m.
'Vengeance is MINE', saith the Lord.'
'Nuf said.
'Vengeance is MINE', saith the Lord.'
'Nuf said.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 5:47 p.m. March 27, 2008
Most of all the rumors can be set aside with the forthcoming publication of
"Massacre at Mountain Meadows" which is the result of 7 year
exhaustive research by Richard Turley, Glen Leonard, and Ronald Walker. Oxford
Press will be publishing the book and their early response to the manuscript has
been most favorable, calling it "riveting". You can pre-order the
book at Amazon.com and I have been told the book will finally be released July
2nd. I'm only sorry that our beloved President Hinckley won't be here
for these historic events, he played such a huge part in Mountain Meadows.
Betty | 6:00 p.m. March 27, 2008
To missing the point, I do not agree with you I do not think we should cower
from our history, I think we should act like God's people and own up to our
actions and make ammends and expect the same from others. I guess you would also
like to forget about 9/11 and the holocaust, well I will not forget until it is
made right.
JT | 8:49 p.m. March 27, 2008
I'm LDS and if you want to know what happened at MMM, the article in the
Ensign a few months ago was a great three-page summary and I look forward to the
book. It's been hard to find info on it from neutral sources or LDS
sources. it's usually been the side that wants to paint LDS folk as
bloodthirsty satan-worshippers.
To Rock On | 8:51 p.m. March 27, 2008
Though our ancestors were driven out of Nauvoo, the land was not stolen. The
church left behind agents which sold the propertied owned by members and the
church. There is a big difference.
rt66pch | 8:52 p.m. March 27, 2008
What I find interesting is who they are sending to the meeting. M. Jensen is a
former attorney and will not let emotions get in the way of an open
discussion....he also will not make mistakes.
Historical Student | 11:30 p.m. March 27, 2008
To the person who minimalized O. P. Rockwell and his Daniteband by comparing his
group against the so called 240 riders into Haun's Mill (a figure that has
never been accurately ascertained, but historians say was probably closer to 40
or 50 riders - about that of O. P. Rockwell and his group), Rockwell was not
only the most feared single person in Utah territory, but Missouri as well,
especially when he had anyone riding with him.
Point is... you apologist Mormons and the Mormon Church too, need to stop the armchair apologizing for a group of whacked out paranoid self-justifying religious fanatics for one of the great tragedies of American history... made more a tragedy by the concerted cover-up and white washing of the even by both individuals and the church.
Some have said the settlers were in fear of their lives and property. That's a crock of bull as they always had the upper hand on this one. Others have said that the Fancher party did misdeeds on their way south. That's totally without proof or evidence.
But there is the gold pieces that the Fancher party pooled together, ($4,000 or so). Why is that aspect not addressed?
Point is... you apologist Mormons and the Mormon Church too, need to stop the armchair apologizing for a group of whacked out paranoid self-justifying religious fanatics for one of the great tragedies of American history... made more a tragedy by the concerted cover-up and white washing of the even by both individuals and the church.
Some have said the settlers were in fear of their lives and property. That's a crock of bull as they always had the upper hand on this one. Others have said that the Fancher party did misdeeds on their way south. That's totally without proof or evidence.
But there is the gold pieces that the Fancher party pooled together, ($4,000 or so). Why is that aspect not addressed?
Vegas Ed | 11:37 p.m. March 27, 2008
I love the gospel, and the church. Sad things happened at Mountain Meadows, but
it's not the church that did the attack. Visit the site, and you'll
get a better understanding of what happened.
a descendant | 3:46 a.m. March 28, 2008
Can we remember that our Savior said AS they were killing him, "Father
forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
Can we "let it go" and take care of the things TODAY that we are able to make a difference with, that are within our circles of responsibility?
Can we act TODAY, so that when we meet our ancestors after this life, we will be able to hold our heads up and assure them that we have done our best to do no harm, but to do good to all people and to keep on repenting of the mistakes we make, while we forgive others the way we would be forgiven by our Father in Heaven?
I'll keep working to do so, and I'm praying that God will help me to do it. Will you? May God bless us, everyone!
Can we "let it go" and take care of the things TODAY that we are able to make a difference with, that are within our circles of responsibility?
Can we act TODAY, so that when we meet our ancestors after this life, we will be able to hold our heads up and assure them that we have done our best to do no harm, but to do good to all people and to keep on repenting of the mistakes we make, while we forgive others the way we would be forgiven by our Father in Heaven?
I'll keep working to do so, and I'm praying that God will help me to do it. Will you? May God bless us, everyone!
SJ Bobkins | 3:49 a.m. March 28, 2008
Please Lord let this end.
Jason | 7:53 a.m. March 28, 2008
You know, I have finally seen the light. The Mormons are right. We need to just
ignore this wholesale slaughtering of over 120 innocent people. It is no big
deal.
We must respect the Mormons' principles. They are true, and provide a firm anchor to their righteous ways.
Personally, I would trust my life to the Mormons, but not their principles. They speak of being anchored to their principles, but if the weather turns nasty they up with an anchor and let it down where there's less wind and the fishing's better. And "Look" they say, "we are anchored! To our principles!"
We must respect the Mormons' principles. They are true, and provide a firm anchor to their righteous ways.
Personally, I would trust my life to the Mormons, but not their principles. They speak of being anchored to their principles, but if the weather turns nasty they up with an anchor and let it down where there's less wind and the fishing's better. And "Look" they say, "we are anchored! To our principles!"
Peace Train | 8:54 a.m. March 28, 2008
Why do a few people always have to start in on the Mormons with so much
contention and hatred. Why can't everyone just try and learn to love,
forgive and try to make the world a better place for all our children, instead
of being angry war mongers. We all need only peace. Please give us peace!
Latter Day Saint | 9:41 a.m. March 28, 2008
I am a descendant of one who was there. I have apologized personally to the
Arkansas descendants for my ancestor�s involvement. It
seems though it was never accepted by these people. I don�t
know what else I can say or do. I am truly sorry that it ever happened. I am
sorry that my 3rd great grandfather was evolved somehow? I do not know much
about his involvement only that he was there. However, nothing is ever enough
said. I have suffered personally over this event for a very long time. I am a
descendant of many Mormon Pioneers. I now have 30 grandchildren who are also
descendants, who are very innocent and who are yet too young to understand this
very sad event, but I will leave my thoughts of this to them before I die. The
world needs to learn to forgive. Hatred will never bring peace to our planet.
God be with us all, and bless, and watch over our very large
posterities�.
Observer | 9:59 a.m. March 28, 2008
Look, the Mormon pioneers that settled Utah were paranoid. They were driven
from New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. They finally feel like they have a
home in Utah where no one will bother them. The made a desert their home. They
were being threatened by the United States. I think they were more than a
little paranoid and rightly so. What those individuals did was wrong. There is
no clear evidence that Brigham Young ordered the killings. The church has
apologized many times. What do we have to do make things right? OK, give the
land to US to make an historic landmark. Will that make the Mormon haters
happy? I doubt it.
DJ | 10:21 a.m. March 28, 2008
Not much is being said about the fact that we are looking at the period when the
Utah War was in play. The men who are responsible for the atrocity in this event
were the men who were officially commissioned in the Utah Territorial Militia.
The common foot solder in any militia is never held responsible. The officers are those responsible for motivating their soldiers. In military actions, the responsible officer is always the individual who was in command in the field. He has the discretion to carry out and execute orders from his superiors but also has the discretion to act on his own. The local militia leaders were only following PART OF THE INSTRUCTIONS given to them by the territorial government. They acted as field commanders would in this situation -- ON THEIR OWN.
Yes there was some blurring of the separation of church and state in the early history of Utah. But you can not say that it was the LDS church that perpetrated this act. It was the territorial militia that carried out these atrocities. As for any of the cover up, it seems that the LDS church was the scape goat for the territorial government.
The common foot solder in any militia is never held responsible. The officers are those responsible for motivating their soldiers. In military actions, the responsible officer is always the individual who was in command in the field. He has the discretion to carry out and execute orders from his superiors but also has the discretion to act on his own. The local militia leaders were only following PART OF THE INSTRUCTIONS given to them by the territorial government. They acted as field commanders would in this situation -- ON THEIR OWN.
Yes there was some blurring of the separation of church and state in the early history of Utah. But you can not say that it was the LDS church that perpetrated this act. It was the territorial militia that carried out these atrocities. As for any of the cover up, it seems that the LDS church was the scape goat for the territorial government.
Con | 12:01 p.m. March 28, 2008
My comment entitled "To Kathryn from Con" was posted, then removed.
Why? In fact, where's Kathryn's comment? I remember another comment
removed after having been posted, too. Why?
Kathryn | 1:26 p.m. March 28, 2008
The censorship of these comments disgusts me.
Deseret News should be ashamed of such hiding, filtering, and abuse of power.
Shame, shame, shame!
Deseret News should be ashamed of such hiding, filtering, and abuse of power.
Shame, shame, shame!
Jaye | 2:09 p.m. March 28, 2008
Apparently...new LDS President Monson has decided to take the Church in the
right direction. The LDS Church has now decided to assist the descendants of MMM
in pushing for National Landmark status for the site of the massacre.
This in direct opposition to the Church's past refusals to do so.
I eagerly await to see what other changes the LDS faith will be experiencing under his leadership.
This in direct opposition to the Church's past refusals to do so.
I eagerly await to see what other changes the LDS faith will be experiencing under his leadership.
Dianne | 2:40 p.m. March 28, 2008
I could not believe that this had actually happened when I first found out about
it. I have researched this event to try to understand what would have
precipitated such a horrible thing to happen. I have come to understand that
this happened because of a few misguided people who made a horrible mistake. I
know that Brigham Young had nothing to do with this and that at no time did he
or any other acting leader of the LDS church authorize this to happen. It was
a terrible thing and my sympathies go out to all involved. I think that it is
important for all to remember that it was not the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints that perpetuated this deed. It was a few people who happened
to be members of the Church. It is the same thing as when a priest in the
Catholic Church is charged with sexually assaulting children, it is the fault of
the individual and not the Catholic Church. I pray that ancestors of those
killed will allow healing to take place and acknowledgment on the part of the
Church to finally be enough.
Strange event? | 3:14 p.m. March 28, 2008
It is quite strange for me to understand with such a large of amount of Latter
Day Saint Mormons, who were very religious people, would ever just set out to
just go murder people. Something is very fishy about this whole ordeal! Someone
mislead these men to be compelled to such horrific actions. I would just like to
know who the instigator was? I have a hard time believing it was just the local
leaders and Jon D Lee? hummm... Someone else was feeding fear into those Mormon
men. I feel sorry for both sides. I am not a member, but do wonder about this
part of history.
Tex | 3:15 p.m. March 28, 2008
Dianne,
You have not got the full story.
At very least, Brigham Young engaged in a coverup for many decades. That is why John D. Lee (his "adopted son") was not brought to trial and executed until decades after the massacre.
Take more time to learn about the history before you comment.
You have not got the full story.
At very least, Brigham Young engaged in a coverup for many decades. That is why John D. Lee (his "adopted son") was not brought to trial and executed until decades after the massacre.
Take more time to learn about the history before you comment.
John Robert Mallernee | 3:19 p.m. March 28, 2008
Con and Kathryn, Et Alii:
My own posting, which was the very first comment posted in response to this article, was there for a while (I think, a whole day, or more), and then, it disappeared.
Censorship is bad enough, but discourtesy aggravates it even further.
If the folks at DESERET NEWS are going to capriciously censor comments by their readers, especially comments that have already been posted, they should, at the very least, have the common courtesy to explain their reason(s) for doing so.
Also, I think anyone who makes such a decision should have enough integrity and fortitude to identify themselves.
After all, I don't conceal my identity, and I hold little respect for those that do.
Thank you.
John Robert Mallernee
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400
My own posting, which was the very first comment posted in response to this article, was there for a while (I think, a whole day, or more), and then, it disappeared.
Censorship is bad enough, but discourtesy aggravates it even further.
If the folks at DESERET NEWS are going to capriciously censor comments by their readers, especially comments that have already been posted, they should, at the very least, have the common courtesy to explain their reason(s) for doing so.
Also, I think anyone who makes such a decision should have enough integrity and fortitude to identify themselves.
After all, I don't conceal my identity, and I hold little respect for those that do.
Thank you.
John Robert Mallernee
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400
Daniel | 3:28 p.m. March 28, 2008
I have always heard it was Brigham Young who instigated the massacre, and than
covered his own tracts. It was easy to let a large group of Mormon men take the
punch. Brigham Young was as well the leader of the Mormon church and could do
pretty much whatever he wanted. I always thought it was ashame the church still
covers his tracts, and blame there own dedicated pioneer members for the
tradgey. Quite shameful!! However, There is one person who does know and that is
GOD.
Time to move on | 4:56 p.m. March 28, 2008
Yes it was a terrible event but it was over 150 years ago we don't rail at
German people we meet about 'the war' which was just over 60 years
ago,
Japanese people do not continue to hate the USA for Horoshima..
These were massive events with worldwide consequences but people learnt to forgive and move on and the descendents of the victims of MMM need to do the same we can't live in the past.
Those who continue to rant on about mountain meadows and who did what often have an axe to grind and it has been given a prominent place within anti-mormon circles so for them it is never going to go away.
Apologies have been made numerous times, memorial services held, speeches made encouraging reconciliation and so forth, it is enough.
It would be a generous gesture if the church donated at least some of the land to the government if the site does achieve Natioinal Historic Landmark status though not really a necessary one.
It's time for everyone to draw a line under this and move on all those involved are long gone and it is time for reconciliation to become a reality.
Japanese people do not continue to hate the USA for Horoshima..
These were massive events with worldwide consequences but people learnt to forgive and move on and the descendents of the victims of MMM need to do the same we can't live in the past.
Those who continue to rant on about mountain meadows and who did what often have an axe to grind and it has been given a prominent place within anti-mormon circles so for them it is never going to go away.
Apologies have been made numerous times, memorial services held, speeches made encouraging reconciliation and so forth, it is enough.
It would be a generous gesture if the church donated at least some of the land to the government if the site does achieve Natioinal Historic Landmark status though not really a necessary one.
It's time for everyone to draw a line under this and move on all those involved are long gone and it is time for reconciliation to become a reality.
Porter | 8:40 p.m. March 28, 2008
The important thing is that Elder Jensen's actions here are an
acknowledgement of the Church's responsibility for this tragic event. Local
representatives of the Church, claiming to be acting under direction from
members of the highest ranks in the Church, perpetrated this horror. Regardless
whether or not they were correct in their claims, they were official
representatives of the Church.
The Church leaders today recognize that fact, are taking responsibility and working for restitution and reconciliation. Long overdue, but very welcome to both descendents of victims and perpetrators, but also welcome to those who are enlightened among the general population of the Church.
Bravo!
The Church leaders today recognize that fact, are taking responsibility and working for restitution and reconciliation. Long overdue, but very welcome to both descendents of victims and perpetrators, but also welcome to those who are enlightened among the general population of the Church.
Bravo!
Amen & | 9:11 p.m. March 28, 2008
Amen! I'm a movin!
Tell me? | 11:33 p.m. March 28, 2008
I was just curious? Does Marlin Jensen have pioneer heritage & conections to
pioneers of MMM? Just wondering?
Lyle | 9:24 a.m. March 29, 2008
It was over 150 years ago. And it was tragic.
You don't think something like that could happen again, do you? Not in our present age of intelligence, education, enlightenment, and truth?
Perhaps you would be wrong. The cause of MMM was religious fanaticism, elitism, mob-mentality, and blind obedience to authority, including the imagined authority the Stake President in Southern Utah believed he and Lee were following.
And those dangerous forces are stronger and more alive today in the LDS community than ever before! Don't believe me? What about those three missionaries who desecrated a Catholic shrine?
You don't think something like that could happen again, do you? Not in our present age of intelligence, education, enlightenment, and truth?
Perhaps you would be wrong. The cause of MMM was religious fanaticism, elitism, mob-mentality, and blind obedience to authority, including the imagined authority the Stake President in Southern Utah believed he and Lee were following.
And those dangerous forces are stronger and more alive today in the LDS community than ever before! Don't believe me? What about those three missionaries who desecrated a Catholic shrine?
Dan | 12:24 p.m. March 29, 2008
Competent, professional historians have been researching the MMM for over a
century and a half. There is a consensus among them that the organization of the
Church is clearly implicated in this massacre. At very least a coverup goes all
the way to the top (Brigham Young), and perhaps more.
Despite MMM being recognized by historians as one of the most bloody, astounding crimes in the history of the American West, the Church and its members have been in denial and justified or tried to rationalize it away for 150yrs. Mormon faithful want it to be swept under the carpet because they are uncomfortable with the implications it has for their blind faith in their local (and general) leaders.
Fortunately, Elder Jensen is acting in good faith. But the down side is twofold: 1. the mass of members of the Church will not get the message that Elder Jensen is sending, and they will continue to deny, minimize, and rationalize; 2. this comes way late, as most "revelations" do in the LDS Church: discrimination against blacks in holding the priesthood is a good example. Seems the LDS prophets are better at hindsight than they are at foresight.
Despite MMM being recognized by historians as one of the most bloody, astounding crimes in the history of the American West, the Church and its members have been in denial and justified or tried to rationalize it away for 150yrs. Mormon faithful want it to be swept under the carpet because they are uncomfortable with the implications it has for their blind faith in their local (and general) leaders.
Fortunately, Elder Jensen is acting in good faith. But the down side is twofold: 1. the mass of members of the Church will not get the message that Elder Jensen is sending, and they will continue to deny, minimize, and rationalize; 2. this comes way late, as most "revelations" do in the LDS Church: discrimination against blacks in holding the priesthood is a good example. Seems the LDS prophets are better at hindsight than they are at foresight.
obviously the lesson is | 10:33 p.m. March 29, 2008
don't leave survivors of any age; no survivors means no descendants and no
descendants groups to pacify for generations to come.
anyone who had ANYTHING to do with this horrible incident should be punished. oh wait, they've been dead a hundred years.
of course, in our society Victimhood is the coin of the realm so it's not likely folks will be letting go of this lottery ticket any time soon
anyone who had ANYTHING to do with this horrible incident should be punished. oh wait, they've been dead a hundred years.
of course, in our society Victimhood is the coin of the realm so it's not likely folks will be letting go of this lottery ticket any time soon
RE: obviously t-lesson is | 4:58 a.m. March 30, 2008
very typical response...and now I wish they would do away with Pioneer day also
as that happened along time ago! Then let's do the fourth of july, and so
forth because no one is alive ...not even the people who signed it! It's
IDEOLOGY MAN! THAT'S WHAT STARTED THIS UGLY BABY AND STILL EXISTS IN THIS
STATE OF UTAH TOWARD OTHER NON-BELIEVERS...AS THERE ARE MORE "BUTTARS"
WHO TRY TO PERPETUATE AND HIDE CERTAIN SECRET AGENDAS! THIS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE
OF THE SAN LUIS EPISODE FOR SURE. THEN YEARS FROM NOW EVERYONE WILL BE DEAD THEN
TOO!
bhparkman | 8:15 a.m. March 30, 2008
People kill each other in war. There was a civil war between USA and the Church
before the USA/CSA war.
Here's the problem for those seeking the Mountain Meadows legal lottery - the legality of the event may be moot. Originally the USA military investigated this battle between Arkansas immigrants and LDS exiles. However, Arkansas left the USA for the CSA: a completely separate country. Since Arkansas was not part of the Union anymore, then logically the investigation went to the CSA.
Since the CSA no longer exists, then the authority over the investigation probably went to the State of Arkansas. However, I can't find any precedence for this sort of action, or if Arkansas made forays into the incident. I can't find any published records from reconstruction that the power went back to the USA either. Since it was over 100 years ago then good luck finding answers.
So, today this is just another thing those seeking wealth through the court lottery at the expense of others use to exploit. I could certainly do the same thing since many of my ancestors were murdered and property plundered, but I'm doing my best to take it like a man.
Here's the problem for those seeking the Mountain Meadows legal lottery - the legality of the event may be moot. Originally the USA military investigated this battle between Arkansas immigrants and LDS exiles. However, Arkansas left the USA for the CSA: a completely separate country. Since Arkansas was not part of the Union anymore, then logically the investigation went to the CSA.
Since the CSA no longer exists, then the authority over the investigation probably went to the State of Arkansas. However, I can't find any precedence for this sort of action, or if Arkansas made forays into the incident. I can't find any published records from reconstruction that the power went back to the USA either. Since it was over 100 years ago then good luck finding answers.
So, today this is just another thing those seeking wealth through the court lottery at the expense of others use to exploit. I could certainly do the same thing since many of my ancestors were murdered and property plundered, but I'm doing my best to take it like a man.
Hey | 10:48 a.m. March 30, 2008
How many homeless are still mistreated today in downtown SLC..that should give
some indication in just how far we've come. This group was looking for a
home just like your saints...who if I recall had to rely on many non-members for
sustenance as they were homeless. But Redford was correct on DEFLECTION!
Kathie Shepherd | 11:46 p.m. March 30, 2008
As much as I wish to always support our Church leaders, it feels very wrong to
me to cater to these "survivors'" wishes in any way. It feels
like pandering.
A century and a half ago Church leaders attempted vainly to obtain redress for the wrongs perpetrated on the Saints in Missouri. My third-great-grandfather, John Tanner, was hit in the head with a shovel at Haun's Mill, and left for dead.
Should our family demand retribution from Missouri? Those "mobs" were well planned and condoned by state leaders, and no recompense for injuries, theft of property, and theft of land was ever made.
The past is the past; it happened. If this nation wants us to forget Haun's Mill, it must be willing to forget Mountain Meadows. To demand apologies for things that happened so many years ago, no matter what its nature (including slavery), is plain old stupid. The perpetrators will be accountable before God, and there it has to remain.
In our desire to have good relations with other peoples, there is a line over which we must not cross, or we dishonor our forebears and all they endured.
A century and a half ago Church leaders attempted vainly to obtain redress for the wrongs perpetrated on the Saints in Missouri. My third-great-grandfather, John Tanner, was hit in the head with a shovel at Haun's Mill, and left for dead.
Should our family demand retribution from Missouri? Those "mobs" were well planned and condoned by state leaders, and no recompense for injuries, theft of property, and theft of land was ever made.
The past is the past; it happened. If this nation wants us to forget Haun's Mill, it must be willing to forget Mountain Meadows. To demand apologies for things that happened so many years ago, no matter what its nature (including slavery), is plain old stupid. The perpetrators will be accountable before God, and there it has to remain.
In our desire to have good relations with other peoples, there is a line over which we must not cross, or we dishonor our forebears and all they endured.
Richard | 8:09 a.m. March 31, 2008
To Kathie Shepherd,
The entire history of the LDS Church is a long diatribe of calling for vengeance, retribution, and whining about the persecutions the Mormons have suffered.
Your lack of sensitivity to the descendants of what is KNOWN by EVERYONE to have been one of the most tragic events in the history of the West, is appalling. You rationalize, denigrate, defend, and everything possible ("pandering?"), including re-writing history, to preserve the illusion that your religion and its people are morally superior to everyone else. If you could only open your heart and mind to the truth, you might see that, and you might also see how pathetic it is.
Only if you are not afraid of truth can you find it.
The entire history of the LDS Church is a long diatribe of calling for vengeance, retribution, and whining about the persecutions the Mormons have suffered.
Your lack of sensitivity to the descendants of what is KNOWN by EVERYONE to have been one of the most tragic events in the history of the West, is appalling. You rationalize, denigrate, defend, and everything possible ("pandering?"), including re-writing history, to preserve the illusion that your religion and its people are morally superior to everyone else. If you could only open your heart and mind to the truth, you might see that, and you might also see how pathetic it is.
Only if you are not afraid of truth can you find it.
Stop the HATE | 9:56 a.m. March 31, 2008
Richard,
How can you make a judgment of what Katie feels? She has a right to her own personal feelings as do you to yours. The massacre was wrong, but none of us living today had anything to do with it and we are not responsible... It's not about us. Perhaps you need to open you heart as well and learn to FORGIVE! If there is anything that people of today need to forgive which I'm not aware it I would like to know? The MMM happened a 150 years ago, so tell me, who's suppose to forgive who? I wasn't there and either were you. Perhaps you need to forgive yourself for hating.
How can you make a judgment of what Katie feels? She has a right to her own personal feelings as do you to yours. The massacre was wrong, but none of us living today had anything to do with it and we are not responsible... It's not about us. Perhaps you need to open you heart as well and learn to FORGIVE! If there is anything that people of today need to forgive which I'm not aware it I would like to know? The MMM happened a 150 years ago, so tell me, who's suppose to forgive who? I wasn't there and either were you. Perhaps you need to forgive yourself for hating.
SHOSHONIE -UTE | 10:20 a.m. March 31, 2008
THE ORIGINAL WORD FOR SALT LAKE = "STINKY WATER"...NOW THE VALLEY IS
EVEN STINKIER AND THAT PICTURE THE ELDERS TOOK HAPPENED YEARS AGO TOO! GOOD
THING THING THE CATHOLICS FORGAVE YOU AS THEY PRACTICED WHAT THEY PREACH. THE
EMBERS OF MMM ARE ALL THE WAY LIVE IN THE BEE-HIVE!
move along folks | 11:02 a.m. March 31, 2008
I'm sorry that your ancestors poisoned the water holes..... NOW CAN WE MOVE
ON!! History is history! At least my family and LDS pioneers kept a few good
diaries. Someday perhaps I will have them published. It will drive a lot of you
crawling ants back into your holes.
I say to all!!!!!!!! LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!! It doesn't concern anyone living today.
I say to all!!!!!!!! LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!! It doesn't concern anyone living today.
LDS Convert of 2 weeks | 3:37 p.m. March 31, 2008
How many apologies does the LDS church and members have to make to the
descendants of the Mountain Meadow Massacre, before they will let this tragedy
rest? How can anyone carry this kind of hatred to such extremes day after day?
The anti Mormon website posted out there on the MMM looks like some kind of a
demonic possession that only keeps deep seeded hatred brewing for everyone. It
certainly is NOT CHRISTIAN by any means! This incident of 150 years ago has
absolutely NOTHING to do with anyone living today in or out of the church. You
people need to give up all the hatred and show some true Christian values and
adult maturity. No one in the modern world today cares about your hatred...only
Satan, and he love�s you dearly for it.
Ray | 4:30 p.m. March 31, 2008
To LDS Convert of 2 weeks,
How many times must the LDS Church apologize?
Let's see, 120 innocent victims X 150 years without an apology = a minimu of 18,000 times.
Fair enough?
How many times must the LDS Church apologize?
Let's see, 120 innocent victims X 150 years without an apology = a minimu of 18,000 times.
Fair enough?
Anonymous | 5:25 p.m. March 31, 2008
i see over & over "how many times must the church apologize?!",
but from my research, i thought it was only last year that the church had issued
a formal apology? some please correct me if i'm wrong? i really do want
to know...
re: ray | 5:36 p.m. March 31, 2008
Ray go head and let the devil rule your life. You are not a victim! Nor is
anyone else living today! So go ahead and live your life with a heart full of
hatred because you are just hurting yourself. Sad for you, because no one cares
not even me. Those who cannot find forgiveness in this life will never be
forgiven. And that means YOU!
Ray | 5:36 p.m. March 31, 2008
To apologize is not a remedy for evil. You must confess, repent, change, make
amends and seek forgivness.
Kathie | 6:22 p.m. March 31, 2008
Well, Richard, you just showed your true colors. Everyone else has a diatribe
but you.
You hate whine, but you just became the man (?) with the biggest whine of the week.
The usual method of those who have nothing valuable to say is to attack the opponent, rather than the opponent's position. You attacked me, the church, and everyone who opposes you. But you have not given one valid reason why recompense should be made in one case, yet denied in the other. That's because there is NO reason. Everyone gets recompense for the wrongs committed by ancestors against ancestors, or NO ONE gets it.
And my vote is that NO ONE gets it, because there is no fair, equitable way of determining the value.
Let the past go and get on with your life. Otherwise it twists you into the kind of person who speaks the hate you spout here.
You hate whine, but you just became the man (?) with the biggest whine of the week.
The usual method of those who have nothing valuable to say is to attack the opponent, rather than the opponent's position. You attacked me, the church, and everyone who opposes you. But you have not given one valid reason why recompense should be made in one case, yet denied in the other. That's because there is NO reason. Everyone gets recompense for the wrongs committed by ancestors against ancestors, or NO ONE gets it.
And my vote is that NO ONE gets it, because there is no fair, equitable way of determining the value.
Let the past go and get on with your life. Otherwise it twists you into the kind of person who speaks the hate you spout here.
dear Ray | 6:45 p.m. March 31, 2008
exactly whom do you wish to see repent. What person? Perhaps we should sacrifice
some virgins?
What exactly will make you and your ilk happy?
I suspect nothing anyone else can do will, what eats you is totally within you and only you can excise it.
That is why we are commanded to forgive fully and totally (reguardless of if the person who has offended you is sorry or apologizes or even realizes they have offended you) It is not for their sake, it is for your sake. Only by forgiving can YOU find peace.
What exactly will make you and your ilk happy?
I suspect nothing anyone else can do will, what eats you is totally within you and only you can excise it.
That is why we are commanded to forgive fully and totally (reguardless of if the person who has offended you is sorry or apologizes or even realizes they have offended you) It is not for their sake, it is for your sake. Only by forgiving can YOU find peace.
To-RAY 30 yr., Convert | 7:50 p.m. March 31, 2008
I hate to be critical, but you have a large screw loose! The members of the
First Presidency were not even born when the massacre occurred. Why do you think
they owe you an apology? They have already apologized numerous times to all the
descendants. I don't understand why you cannot accept it and leave it
alone? I suggest you seek some kind of professional help for deep hatred for
Mormons. You are a very scary person and ill person. You are the type who only
seek for war and nothing righteous.... Shame on you. I will pray for your
tortured soul.
Lyle | 8:18 p.m. March 31, 2008
You bitter defenders of Mormonism can say what you want, but the facts are in:
Your current Church leaders are making amends, apologizing, and cooperating with
the descendants of the Fancher party.
If all your bitter excuses and rationalizations had any merit whatsoever, they wouldn't be doing that, would they?
Think about it.
If all your bitter excuses and rationalizations had any merit whatsoever, they wouldn't be doing that, would they?
Think about it.
Forgiveness | 8:19 p.m. March 31, 2008
God bless the First Presidency and all the church members who have dealt with
this very hard situation. You have made every effort possible to make things
right even though it was not the fault of anyone living today. The Lord loves
our Prophet President Monson, his counselors, and all the GA's and the
members of the church. God bless our church. May there always be forgiveness.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Elder Marlin K. Jensen
- Kansas' Secret Santa gives away $ 1:24 a.m.
- 75 hostages seized in Phillippines 1:24 a.m.
- Gates: US to be Afghan partner 1:23 a.m.
- Al-Qaida claims credit for blasts 1:23 a.m.
- Utah Utes campus briefs 12:39 a.m.
- SUU campus briefs 12:37 a.m.
- Westminster campus briefs 12:35 a.m.
- Y.'s Bauman receives award 12:33 a.m.
- BYU campus briefs 12:30 a.m.
- Utah Jazz: Game at a glance 12:12 a.m.
- Hot Rod behind mic for Lakers
- Cougars use depth to beat ASU
- Max Hall wants to look ahead
- Panel passes BCS playoff bill
- Non-BCS schools not given fair shot
- Psychologist: Mitchell schizophrenic
- Crash landing next to I-15
- Palin signs books, chats with fans
- Snow brings big chill
- Jazz go up against 'the best'
- Letters: Global warming a lie
229 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl206
- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall184
- Cougars going back to Vegas150
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil147
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax138
- Max Hall wants to look ahead119
- Revive full food tax?100
- Yet again, we learn BCS is a big joke94
- Palin signs books, chats with fans94
Love him or hate him, Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch knows how to get attention.
My wife Lisa and I would prefer never to argue. But that's not going to...
For the latest news in the health care debate and how it affects you...
Latest comments
Top 5 Players in minutes played: Utah 1 Fr, 2 Jr, 2 Sr Jr Carlon Brown...
Yep "self righteous" if the rest of us who don't rubber neck left, you would...
Thank you for keeping the team here for all of these years, and for always...
of misery, inconsistency, road games losses and of course, NO TITLE ! Long...
Glad to hear about Matt and the others who demonstrate you can play at a high...
I guess they forgot that God made clothes for Adam and Eve and that was...
and good luck.
There is an inherent problem in any rating system -- it takes into account...
Give Phillips some credit. He was 5/5 in field goals in the YBU game, and the...
Mr. Bender's kind of thinking doesn't even acknowledge that the world is...
Advertisements
Whatever Brigham Young taught from the pulpit, JofD or no... was considered by himself, and his followers to be law.
Whether he claimed it to be a revelation, or doctrine straight from God...or his own opinion...it was expected to be obeyed by the Mormons at peril of their salvation.
Brigham Young thought that the attack of the crickets befell them because the Mormons had fallen away from righteousness.
He instructed Mormon men that it was righteousness, and obedience to God for them shed the blood of any man or woman they found to be committing sin...specifically sins of the flesh.
He taught that they could expect exaltation of the highest degree if they practiced Young's principle of Blood Atonement.
You really need to learn about the true history of the faith you are trying to defend.