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Mountain Meadows meetings in Arkansas
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sparkes22 | 4:38 a.m. March 27, 2008
I too am crossing my fingers that all parties involved can come to an amicable
settlement on this matter, one that preserves the site and all its extensions
and fosters the feelings of understanding, forgiveness and hope now being
nurtured.
Wait for it...wait for it | 5:43 a.m. March 27, 2008
HERE WE GO!!
your Dad | 6:41 a.m. March 27, 2008
Perhaps we can also arrange for parts of Ohio, Illinios and Missouri to become
National Historic Sites, considering the killings that went on around those
parts as well; even things up a little.
Comments continue below
Come Clean | 6:49 a.m. March 27, 2008
I do not share the paranoia of some of these other bloggers...
As a lifelong member of the LDS church, I want to see us act responsibly and charitably in this matter. We should give the government the land and let the descendants do what they wish and support the establishment of a national monument. By controlling the land it appears we want to manipulate the history of this affair which only perpetuates the appearance of a coverup. We have nothing to hide. Let's practice what we preach.
Furthermore, whenever these people organize something in our State, we should welcome them with open arms, take them into our homes and treat them as dear friends that we have offended in the worst possible way and with whom we want to make amends.
As a lifelong member of the LDS church, I want to see us act responsibly and charitably in this matter. We should give the government the land and let the descendants do what they wish and support the establishment of a national monument. By controlling the land it appears we want to manipulate the history of this affair which only perpetuates the appearance of a coverup. We have nothing to hide. Let's practice what we preach.
Furthermore, whenever these people organize something in our State, we should welcome them with open arms, take them into our homes and treat them as dear friends that we have offended in the worst possible way and with whom we want to make amends.
JBH001 | 6:59 a.m. March 27, 2008
The topic of the fireside is the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and has been
announced in sacrament meetings here in Oklahoma and Arkansas. The fireside is
not just for members but also for non-members that may be interested in the
subject matter.
Re: John | 7:15 a.m. March 27, 2008
I agree. But there is something very Christ-like about remembering we are
dealing with human beings. If the decedents of the tragedy, right or wrong,
feel hurt by this, I have even more admiration for the Church for working with
and supporting these people here and now in 2008, in a spirit of love and
service - a pure gesture to bless and help.
The church has monument to remember the fallen victims of the Haun's Mill Massacre where Latter-day Saints were slaughtered legally at the hands of an extermination order from Governor Boggs in Missouri. The monument the Church helps raise will be nothing less than an act of charity - a monument to the Church's commitment to Christ-like love. If WE CAN'T demonstrate and practice it, how can we expect others to? NO, Elder Jensen and Elder Eyring had NOTHING to do with the actions of people a hundred years ago, but I think there is a HUGE lesson of real love and kindness in their actions. This isn't about those people 100 years ago, its about building bridges of love and respect in 2008.
The church has monument to remember the fallen victims of the Haun's Mill Massacre where Latter-day Saints were slaughtered legally at the hands of an extermination order from Governor Boggs in Missouri. The monument the Church helps raise will be nothing less than an act of charity - a monument to the Church's commitment to Christ-like love. If WE CAN'T demonstrate and practice it, how can we expect others to? NO, Elder Jensen and Elder Eyring had NOTHING to do with the actions of people a hundred years ago, but I think there is a HUGE lesson of real love and kindness in their actions. This isn't about those people 100 years ago, its about building bridges of love and respect in 2008.
Pete | 7:24 a.m. March 27, 2008
And who will apologize for the massacre, the slaughter, and the murders at
Nauvoo?
Don't understand.... | 8:04 a.m. March 27, 2008
I don't understand the first comment. Any reasonable reading of the FACTS
of the massacre showed clear involvement by church members, stake president
Isaac Haight, Apostle George A. Smith, and at least complicity on the part of
Brigham Young in the massive coverup afterwards. We were wrong. We were
especially wrong afterwards in obstructing justice. Approximately 70 members
participated in the murders and only one was brought to justice. That is a
massive coverup. History, in this case, is what it is. Sorry that you
don't like it. Sorry that it made "us" look bad, but we were
bad, in this case. The site should become a national historic landmark and
should be managed by the federal government. The deeds performed there
"belong to the ages" now and should be given the status appropriate to
the events that transpired.
Re: Yo Pete, and John too | 8:21 a.m. March 27, 2008
Actually, the Illinois legislature passed a resolution expressing sorrow for
what happened in the 1840s:
(from DNews 4/1/2004)
The resolution states that the "biases and prejudices of a less-enlightened age in the history of the state of Illinois caused untold hardship and trauma for the community of Latter-day Saints by the distrust, violence and inhospitable actions of a dark time in our past . . . ."
It also describes members of the LDS Church as "a people of faith and hard work" and asks them to forgive "the misguided efforts of our citizens, chief executive and the General Assembly in the expulsion of their Mormon ancestors" from Nauvoo.
...last month, Burke and his wife, Illinois Appellate Court Judge Anne Burke, returned to Utah with a draft of the resolution that they took to President Hinckley. "He was completely surprised that anyone would undertake to do this," Burke said. "He was very emotional."
...there was no debate over the resolution, either in committee or on the House floor, and...it passed unanimously.
(end quotes)
What could be wrong with our church extending a similar peace offering to the descendants of people massacred by our own?
Stop being victims. Face the music.
(from DNews 4/1/2004)
The resolution states that the "biases and prejudices of a less-enlightened age in the history of the state of Illinois caused untold hardship and trauma for the community of Latter-day Saints by the distrust, violence and inhospitable actions of a dark time in our past . . . ."
It also describes members of the LDS Church as "a people of faith and hard work" and asks them to forgive "the misguided efforts of our citizens, chief executive and the General Assembly in the expulsion of their Mormon ancestors" from Nauvoo.
...last month, Burke and his wife, Illinois Appellate Court Judge Anne Burke, returned to Utah with a draft of the resolution that they took to President Hinckley. "He was completely surprised that anyone would undertake to do this," Burke said. "He was very emotional."
...there was no debate over the resolution, either in committee or on the House floor, and...it passed unanimously.
(end quotes)
What could be wrong with our church extending a similar peace offering to the descendants of people massacred by our own?
Stop being victims. Face the music.
Confused | 8:44 a.m. March 27, 2008
Kathryn,
The Immigrants were not lilly white as you seem to imply.
Yes, some misguided Mormons did something both Wrong and Stupid.
But these immigrants also made sure that everyone they came in contact with knew from where they came from. Stating how they participated in the problems of Missouri.
Both sides needs to take a chill pill and remember every group of people have idiots in them.
The Immigrants were not lilly white as you seem to imply.
Yes, some misguided Mormons did something both Wrong and Stupid.
But these immigrants also made sure that everyone they came in contact with knew from where they came from. Stating how they participated in the problems of Missouri.
Both sides needs to take a chill pill and remember every group of people have idiots in them.
Confused | 8:45 a.m. March 27, 2008
Don't understand:
You used a good anonymous name. You really do not understand the facts of the issues.
No Brigham Young never condone or even hinted that he wanted it done. In fact all the historical papers suggest the other "Leave them alone". The time frame from when they sent the letter to B.Y. and when the incident happened, means that there was no way for Brigham to give his approval because the riding could not amke the round trip in the timeframe.
Yes, Several LDS leaders was involved and all of them paid the price for their deeds(either in this life or the next).
There is a lot of myths being touted as "Facts" but they have no basis in actual fact.
You used a good anonymous name. You really do not understand the facts of the issues.
No Brigham Young never condone or even hinted that he wanted it done. In fact all the historical papers suggest the other "Leave them alone". The time frame from when they sent the letter to B.Y. and when the incident happened, means that there was no way for Brigham to give his approval because the riding could not amke the round trip in the timeframe.
Yes, Several LDS leaders was involved and all of them paid the price for their deeds(either in this life or the next).
There is a lot of myths being touted as "Facts" but they have no basis in actual fact.
Ernest T. Bass | 8:52 a.m. March 27, 2008
The behavior and comments of a certain leader after the fact was absolutely
shameful.
Both the act AND the behavior after the fact warrent numerous appologies.
Both the act AND the behavior after the fact warrent numerous appologies.
Confused | 9:03 a.m. March 27, 2008
Ernest:
There was a lot said and done on BOTH SIDES that descendents from both sides should apologize for and try to work together to put the issue to rest FOREVER!
There was a lot said and done on BOTH SIDES that descendents from both sides should apologize for and try to work together to put the issue to rest FOREVER!
Kevin | 9:30 a.m. March 27, 2008
One can only admire the work of the LDS Church and those in its Historical
Department who are working together with the various organizations having an
interest in the Mountain Meadows site. Its clearly a very delicate matter, with
facts and interests that cannot all be covered in a newspaper story. I look
forward to learning more about this particular meeting in Arkansas and hope that
all can come to a meaningful understanding on how to go forward.
Gary | 9:50 a.m. March 27, 2008
I seriously doubt John Robert is a member of the church. If you are, shame on
you. Tolerance is a virtue that should be displayed on both sides of the aisle.
My only gripe with making it a national monument is then the place with go to
pot. At least with the Church owning it you know it will be properly cared for
and have the funding to take care of it. My guess is these Mountain Meadows
organizations would want it to become a National Historic Site and still have
the Church pay for it, but have no say about what goes on there. I have problems
with that thinking.
sffilk | 9:57 a.m. March 27, 2008
Until the Mormon church is willing to admit its fault and publicly apologize to
each and every descendant of the massacre's survivors, this will be a stain
on the organization. And to the first poster, the Mormon church lied about the
massacre for over 140 years; get your facts straight. Even when the proof was
excavated, the powers that be tried to put a spin on it in LDS's favor.
The truth is out; you can't put it back in the bottle.
That being said, I don't see the church doing the proper thing because it would make the organization look bad.
That being said, I don't see the church doing the proper thing because it would make the organization look bad.
daryl | 9:53 a.m. March 27, 2008
Nothing postive has ever come from violence, did LDS members do somthing wrong?
Yes, I am LDS and have heard the stories over the years, and I am not proud of
what happened. Do I understand the frustration of all they had been through, and
how they may have felt threatened and reminded of all the autrocities they had
been through. Yes! But should they had turned the other cheek like they had so
many times before and let this unruly group of people pass? YES! they should
have. Just like the many other wagon trains that came through before them and
after. I am sorry that we LDS are not perfect. But many of us are trying and
have tried to do what our Savior would have us do in difficult situations. I
hope our Leaders can bring some peace to all those who were part of this sad
history on both sides.
Hunt them down! | 10:00 a.m. March 27, 2008
Perhaps we should round up all the descendants of the Mormon Pioneers who
participated in the M M Massacre and hang them all! after all it was their
ancestors! They are just as much to blame and being descendants of The Brigham
Young group of killers. John Doyle Lee was an adopted son of Brigham Young and
did everything Brigham Young asked him to do. I suppose we we need a bounty
party to find all these descendant's.
Mark | 10:01 a.m. March 27, 2008
I hope they protect the site fully ans ensure public access. It was a very
important historical event.
Ernest T. Bass | 10:08 a.m. March 27, 2008
Confused (9:03)
So the victims are supposed to appologize?? For what, getting killed? For being lied to? For being duped by the guys with the weapons?
You truly are confused.
So the victims are supposed to appologize?? For what, getting killed? For being lied to? For being duped by the guys with the weapons?
You truly are confused.
Franz | 10:09 a.m. March 27, 2008
It could be argued that the LDS Church is taking better care of the site than
the U.S. government probably will. Nevertheless, I think if the descendants want
to work for a National Monument the LDS Church should (probably will) work
toward that end. The fear is that the story can be told in several different
ways depending on which "facts" a person uses as evidenced by the
recent movie. Understandably, this is a valid concern for the descendants as
well. I do believe there is a middle ground that can be agreed on by both
parties.
Yes, this is a black-eye on the LDS Church and people; yes, they need to apologize; yes, they have apologized numerous times. Certainly, the murder of hundreds or thousands of Mormon men, women and children does not justify the murder of hundreds or even thousands on the other side, but it does put things in perspective; history does not happen in a vacuum, and you can't apply 20th 0r 21st century thinking to a 19th century situation.
Yes, this is a black-eye on the LDS Church and people; yes, they need to apologize; yes, they have apologized numerous times. Certainly, the murder of hundreds or thousands of Mormon men, women and children does not justify the murder of hundreds or even thousands on the other side, but it does put things in perspective; history does not happen in a vacuum, and you can't apply 20th 0r 21st century thinking to a 19th century situation.
Dale | 10:09 a.m. March 27, 2008
It's amazing how many armchair historians there are who "know"
exactly what happened 150 years ago.
Carl | 10:17 a.m. March 27, 2008
Trust me. Anytime we seek retribution for wrongs--we put our souls outside the
reach of the atonement of Christ. This will all be sorted out fairly, justly
and with mercy. Victims will get their day and so will the perps. To those of
us who demand the eternal suffering of those who did harm, WE are next in line
to be judged. The nation, the world has a history of pain caused to others.
For me, I can feel badly all I want, but why suffer for that which has already
been suffered for by the Lord. If there is justice or mercy to extend, I trust
in his capacity to judge. Let's not yell "justice" so loudly
that he cannot hear our cries for "mercy".
Ease up... | 10:23 a.m. March 27, 2008
I've observed MMM discussions for quite some time on DN and have never
commented. Here goes my $0.02
To all those who suggest that are seeking apologies/recompense for wrongs committed against LDS members in MO, IL, OH, I have two things to say to you. First, some apologies have already happened. Perhaps not enough for you, but progress has been made. Secondly, even if they didn't or haven't enough for your taste, we are taught to forgive. Period.
Second, LDS church members committed ghastly atrocities against the AR party. The church apologized, and I think it's great they're reaching out to the descendants. I wouldn't have any problem at all if they donated the land to the Federal Government. Our members were wrong for killing these people. Very wrong. And there was coverup, those are the facts.
I just find it both interesting and sad that when there seems to be one step toward reconciliation that some people on this board want to take two steps back. Some feel no need to apologize, others feel that we shouldn't apologize until others apologize for wrongs committed against us. Still others won't accept the church's apology and want more.
To all those who suggest that are seeking apologies/recompense for wrongs committed against LDS members in MO, IL, OH, I have two things to say to you. First, some apologies have already happened. Perhaps not enough for you, but progress has been made. Secondly, even if they didn't or haven't enough for your taste, we are taught to forgive. Period.
Second, LDS church members committed ghastly atrocities against the AR party. The church apologized, and I think it's great they're reaching out to the descendants. I wouldn't have any problem at all if they donated the land to the Federal Government. Our members were wrong for killing these people. Very wrong. And there was coverup, those are the facts.
I just find it both interesting and sad that when there seems to be one step toward reconciliation that some people on this board want to take two steps back. Some feel no need to apologize, others feel that we shouldn't apologize until others apologize for wrongs committed against us. Still others won't accept the church's apology and want more.
To Don't Understand | 10:30 a.m. March 27, 2008
Good name, you don't understand do you?
"A clear reading"?. Don't think so. The government investigated, movies made, books written and no smoking gun. Just a lot of made up, rumor, and innuendo.
It should never have happened but it did. Those responsible are pushing up daisies in the cemeteries of this country. Dregging it up, ad infinitum will never resolve anything. Bigotry is like that, bring it up over and over and over and then wonder why it has a life of it's own. The truth dies a horrible death in this world. Lies live forever.
I visited Hauns Mill a number of years ago. They have to put the signs to the place on the top of telephone poles to stop the vandalism. Before you point at LDS people for things, take a look at others. Those who point a finger, have 3 fingers pointing back at them. We don't need monuments to dredge up past sins, we need to get past things. Will we ever? How about a monument to the future dumb things people do?
"A clear reading"?. Don't think so. The government investigated, movies made, books written and no smoking gun. Just a lot of made up, rumor, and innuendo.
It should never have happened but it did. Those responsible are pushing up daisies in the cemeteries of this country. Dregging it up, ad infinitum will never resolve anything. Bigotry is like that, bring it up over and over and over and then wonder why it has a life of it's own. The truth dies a horrible death in this world. Lies live forever.
I visited Hauns Mill a number of years ago. They have to put the signs to the place on the top of telephone poles to stop the vandalism. Before you point at LDS people for things, take a look at others. Those who point a finger, have 3 fingers pointing back at them. We don't need monuments to dredge up past sins, we need to get past things. Will we ever? How about a monument to the future dumb things people do?
BHodges | 10:31 a.m. March 27, 2008
As a Latter-day Saint I'm grateful for the more forthright discussion from
my Church's standpoint on this issue.
400ex | 10:41 a.m. March 27, 2008
Last year my wife's family had a family reunion near the site as one of her
ansestors was an officer in Cedar City at that time. The site is very nice and
it sounds like it will be improved. The problem is that few people understand
why it happened. A family member who spoke with these groups came and they do
not understand. If the church came out and explained it would sound like they
were giving excuses.
Problems with this group ocurred all the way coming from Salt Lake and the people in the wagon train were threttening to bring back an army from California. The people were scared as this had happened to them before. They sent a letter to Brigham Young for counsel but carried out the attack before receiving a response. The letter sent back which arrived to late said to let them leave, however Brigham Young helped remove the first monument put up at the site.
All this makes it harder than it sounds to work with these groups. The full story sounds bad at a grave site only half sounds bad for the Morman church. Hope it works out.
Problems with this group ocurred all the way coming from Salt Lake and the people in the wagon train were threttening to bring back an army from California. The people were scared as this had happened to them before. They sent a letter to Brigham Young for counsel but carried out the attack before receiving a response. The letter sent back which arrived to late said to let them leave, however Brigham Young helped remove the first monument put up at the site.
All this makes it harder than it sounds to work with these groups. The full story sounds bad at a grave site only half sounds bad for the Morman church. Hope it works out.
I'M SORRY! | 10:56 a.m. March 27, 2008
I am a descendant of one who participated in the killings. I never new anything
about the massacre until a few years ago.
RE: Hunt Them Down-- You can come and get me because I am not running! I can face whatever is asked of me. I want you to know as well, that I am truly innocent of the massacre itself. I want to say to you that I'm truly sorry that my ancestor was somehow involved and mislead to participate in such an awful tragedy. I am truly, truly sorry!
I am investigating things for myself nonetheless.
RE: Hunt Them Down-- You can come and get me because I am not running! I can face whatever is asked of me. I want you to know as well, that I am truly innocent of the massacre itself. I want to say to you that I'm truly sorry that my ancestor was somehow involved and mislead to participate in such an awful tragedy. I am truly, truly sorry!
I am investigating things for myself nonetheless.
LB | 10:58 a.m. March 27, 2008
I don't think there is any need to have a monument, although it would be a
magnanimous gesture by LDS church. This massacre was not an institutionalized
plan by the central church leadership. It was a tragic, wild west kind of
incident. It is simply amazing how so many still use the words "we"
and "they" when talking about events that "we" and
"they" had absolutely nothing to do with because none of us had any
opportunity to be there because it happened more than 100 yrs. ago! It is
important to learn from history and try not to repeat mistakes made by our
ancestors, but WE need to stop taking offense from and casting blame on mere
descendants of the actual actors.
It would be a miracle | 11:10 a.m. March 27, 2008
It would be a miracle if these 2 groups could come an amicable agreement on all
these topic outlined in the article. But of course that doesn't mean we
stop trying. Miracles CAN happen.
John S. Jarstad, M.D. | 11:37 a.m. March 27, 2008
As a direct descendent of the Prewitt family who lost two Brothers John and
William Prewitt (18 and 20 years old) at Mt. Meadows, and an active LDS
(bishopric)member and R.M., it amazes me that this battle of words and feelings
continues after all these years.
How can anyone, no matter how well intentioned, begin to understand the complex emotions and circumstances from over 150 years ago that took place in the "WILD WEST." Our family was transporting thoroughbred horses and gold to set up a horse farm in California with some members riding in carriages (See History of Utah for the true story). They stuck out in poverty stricken arid S. Utah. It would be like driving a Bently or Rolls Royce through the poorest trailer parks today. Greed was a factor on the part of the early Saints and naivete on the part of my Arkansas relatives. That we had ties to Missouri (though hundreds of miles away from Haun's Mill) made it "O.K." to rob &kill them.
I say look at the LDS families who are descendants of the victims. If the LDS Church wasn't true, why would so many of us be active members today?
How can anyone, no matter how well intentioned, begin to understand the complex emotions and circumstances from over 150 years ago that took place in the "WILD WEST." Our family was transporting thoroughbred horses and gold to set up a horse farm in California with some members riding in carriages (See History of Utah for the true story). They stuck out in poverty stricken arid S. Utah. It would be like driving a Bently or Rolls Royce through the poorest trailer parks today. Greed was a factor on the part of the early Saints and naivete on the part of my Arkansas relatives. That we had ties to Missouri (though hundreds of miles away from Haun's Mill) made it "O.K." to rob &kill them.
I say look at the LDS families who are descendants of the victims. If the LDS Church wasn't true, why would so many of us be active members today?
Lee | 11:40 a.m. March 27, 2008
God has already dealt with those men who had blood on thier hands. That is the
final and absolute justice. However, if those same men repented and asked Him
for forgiveness, it was granted.As well as those who murdered Joesph &
Hiram. Having said that, we all need to make sure that atrocities like that
don't happen again. The LDS Church has continually done the right thing in
this matter.But this will probably never die. BTW, has the Catholic Church ever
apologised for the Inquisition?
Convert | 11:43 a.m. March 27, 2008
Those who have an axe to grind with the LDS Church are using the Mountain
Meadows incident to gain publicity in an atempt to embarrass the church. The
facts are old (and stale) but some seem strangely compelled to tell and re-tell
and re-re-tell... the same old details with cocidile tears. Just examine the
comments on this site. The critics want an apology. The official
"church" has apologized on behalf of those members involved with the
trajedy. But that just doesn't seem good enough. Critics don't want
an apology; they want public humiliation. It is doudtful the critics will ever
be satisfied or quiet so long as the media will provide print space and air
time.
Confused | 11:50 a.m. March 27, 2008
Ernest,
Yes the victims helped to flame the situation by stating that they were part of the mobs in Missouri. How they raped the mormon women and killed the little "gnats" (children).
Should the mormons done what they did? HECK NO! They should have just let them pass without issue. But looking at the posts today, I can understand why personal feelings got in the way.
So yes, they share in the blame for what happened. If people truly want to understand history of any event they need to read from several different viewpoints to understand what actually happened.
Yes the victims helped to flame the situation by stating that they were part of the mobs in Missouri. How they raped the mormon women and killed the little "gnats" (children).
Should the mormons done what they did? HECK NO! They should have just let them pass without issue. But looking at the posts today, I can understand why personal feelings got in the way.
So yes, they share in the blame for what happened. If people truly want to understand history of any event they need to read from several different viewpoints to understand what actually happened.
Confused | 11:59 a.m. March 27, 2008
For those who are truly interested in knowing about this incident.
Two professors from BYU has written a book about it (when it comes out I am not sure). The LDS Church opened it doors to these two, as well as the descendents of the people slaugthered.
Their goal was to try and get as acurate picture of what caused the incident without all the "Blaming" people like to do.
Two professors from BYU has written a book about it (when it comes out I am not sure). The LDS Church opened it doors to these two, as well as the descendents of the people slaugthered.
Their goal was to try and get as acurate picture of what caused the incident without all the "Blaming" people like to do.
Mike | 11:54 a.m. March 27, 2008
What I don't get is why MMM is a "black-eye on the LDS Church"
anymore than it is a "black-eye" on the State that condoned the
Haun's Mill Massacre or the atrocities in Nauvoo.
My great-grandfather had nothing to do with MMM (he came from Scotland), my grandfather had nothing to do with MMM, my father had nothing to do with MMM, I have had nothing to do with MMM, my sons have had nothing to do with MMM, my grandsons have had nothing to do with MMM.
Who, exactly, are the MMM groups wanting to apologize?
Would someone please give me a break??
My great-grandfather had nothing to do with MMM (he came from Scotland), my grandfather had nothing to do with MMM, my father had nothing to do with MMM, I have had nothing to do with MMM, my sons have had nothing to do with MMM, my grandsons have had nothing to do with MMM.
Who, exactly, are the MMM groups wanting to apologize?
Would someone please give me a break??
russ | 12:03 p.m. March 27, 2008
When I was growing up in Utah the MMM was a topic no Mormon would discuss. In
fact, it would end any discussion of anything.
The Mormon Church has slowly but surely ack. that something very bad happened. That is progress.
The Mormon Church has slowly but surely ack. that something very bad happened. That is progress.
CB | 12:21 p.m. March 27, 2008
Seems we alway judge events in the context of today's access and
conveniences. Messages in those days took days to reach their destinations.
Acts of violence could only be met on the ground where they occurred. Not
knowing what was said, by whom and for what purpose, at what time and under
what circumstance are unknown to us. Leave judgment to He who does know.
Unfortunately, most of the anger and wars in the world today are based on
"old wounds and wrongs" that somehow "we" must address and
make right, which will never happen. We need to learn from the past to create a
better future.
Re: Lee | 12:27 p.m. March 27, 2008
Who cares if others apologize for their wrongs? The church absolutely did the
right thing by apologizing on behalf of its members who instigated this
slaughter.
The argument that somebody else didn't apologize (i.e. Catholics for the inquisition) so I shouldn't either is so juvenile.
The argument that somebody else didn't apologize (i.e. Catholics for the inquisition) so I shouldn't either is so juvenile.
Here's The Facts! | 12:25 p.m. March 27, 2008
To all of you who justify MM because of Haun's Mill, etal..., consider the
following:
Haun's Mill was precipitated by Orrin P. Rockwell and his Danitegangs riding through the countryside terrorizing the local non-Mormon folks (this does not make H. Mill massacre right, it only shows there was provocation).
MM had no basis for being precipitated, as all the Utah Mormons explicitly knew that the so called 'Missouri Wildcats' had long departed from the Fantcher group, and the Fantcher group was LEAVING Utah!
It's amazing how many Mrmn apologists justify MM by referring to H. Mill without considering the illegally led Rockwell incidents in the surrounding countryside... which both Mrmn and Secular historians recognize as the precipitating tipping point for H. Mill. The Fantcher group were part of no such thing, in fact, having nothing to do with Missouri/Illinois history or its bloody events. So quit equating MM with H. Mill. The similarities are as distant as Pluto is from the Earth!
Given all the facts, MM does need to be turned over to the National Parks. Doing otherwise is denigrating and dishonoring the innocent lives taken by those frenzied, fanatical, self-justified murders of the lowest character 150 years ago.
Haun's Mill was precipitated by Orrin P. Rockwell and his Danitegangs riding through the countryside terrorizing the local non-Mormon folks (this does not make H. Mill massacre right, it only shows there was provocation).
MM had no basis for being precipitated, as all the Utah Mormons explicitly knew that the so called 'Missouri Wildcats' had long departed from the Fantcher group, and the Fantcher group was LEAVING Utah!
It's amazing how many Mrmn apologists justify MM by referring to H. Mill without considering the illegally led Rockwell incidents in the surrounding countryside... which both Mrmn and Secular historians recognize as the precipitating tipping point for H. Mill. The Fantcher group were part of no such thing, in fact, having nothing to do with Missouri/Illinois history or its bloody events. So quit equating MM with H. Mill. The similarities are as distant as Pluto is from the Earth!
Given all the facts, MM does need to be turned over to the National Parks. Doing otherwise is denigrating and dishonoring the innocent lives taken by those frenzied, fanatical, self-justified murders of the lowest character 150 years ago.
Anonymous | 12:26 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:Confused...the emigrants were from Arkansas...not Missouri. Church apologists
have long claimed that there were 'Missouri Wildcat' riders among the
emigrants, and that these riders boasted of having participated in the
persecutions of the Mormons in Missouri. But this rumor is not verified from the
list of victims.
BTW...the very first victim according to the testimony and information provided by John D.Lee was a 7 year old child who was sitting down and eating breakfast.
Lee expressed distaste that apparently his Mormon peers were as savage and merciless as the Indians were, and that they did not hesitate to kill women and children...although Church apologists have tried to claim that the Mormons only killed men, while the Indians killed women and children.
BTW...the very first victim according to the testimony and information provided by John D.Lee was a 7 year old child who was sitting down and eating breakfast.
Lee expressed distaste that apparently his Mormon peers were as savage and merciless as the Indians were, and that they did not hesitate to kill women and children...although Church apologists have tried to claim that the Mormons only killed men, while the Indians killed women and children.
G | 12:38 p.m. March 27, 2008
I wonder if those folks would also like National Historical Monument status at
Hahn's mill?
To: Confused | 12:37 p.m. March 27, 2008
Your comment that, "Yes the victims helped to flame the situation by
stating that they were part of the mobs in Missouri. How they raped the mormon
women and killed the little "gnats" (children)" is purely
speculative, and the references to these comments were written many years after
the incident, in many instances by individuals who were never there or had
contact with the Arkansas group. Historically unsustainable references.
What we do know is that the group was determined to get our of Utah as quickly as possible, taking a route recommended to them by the Mormons themselves. We also know that they had a considerable amount of gold pieces with them they used to pay for supplies and feed. In all the historical hubrus and bantering, Mormons have never accounted for this gold!
Those gold pieces! Maybe that why the massacre happened, justified by a self-manufactured frenzy for purely greedy purposes.
Those gold pieces! It can fever people to unbelievable depths of depravity, especially when such depraved acts can be religiously justified for reasons of misplaced revenge.
Those gold pieces! They were of record before the Arkansas party departed, so they're not a fantasy. What happened to the gold?
What we do know is that the group was determined to get our of Utah as quickly as possible, taking a route recommended to them by the Mormons themselves. We also know that they had a considerable amount of gold pieces with them they used to pay for supplies and feed. In all the historical hubrus and bantering, Mormons have never accounted for this gold!
Those gold pieces! Maybe that why the massacre happened, justified by a self-manufactured frenzy for purely greedy purposes.
Those gold pieces! It can fever people to unbelievable depths of depravity, especially when such depraved acts can be religiously justified for reasons of misplaced revenge.
Those gold pieces! They were of record before the Arkansas party departed, so they're not a fantasy. What happened to the gold?
What the? | 12:45 p.m. March 27, 2008
Look here folks! I cannot for the life of me comprehend or figure out how such a
large quantity of religious L. D.Saints could just go out and commit such a
horrific act. People just don't go out and murder people by the dozens like
this for no reason at all. Someone isn't revealing the whole true story on
here. Something is extremely wrong about the whole event. Somebody isn't
telling truly what happened back then. These kind of things just don't
happen on a normal basis. These were religious people who committed this
crime...huh?
RockOn | 12:55 p.m. March 27, 2008
Who care... apparently some perpetual whiners who can't leave the past
alone so long as it grinds an ax for them. Should I seek compensation from the
families living in Nauvoo who drove out my ancestors and stole their property?
Nope. Let the dead bury the dead.
Jaye | 1:01 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re: Lee's comment:
D&C 42: 18 clearly states that according to Joseph Smith, "And now, behold I speak unto the Church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, NOR IN THE WORLD TO COME."
D&C 42: 18 clearly states that according to Joseph Smith, "And now, behold I speak unto the Church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, NOR IN THE WORLD TO COME."
No Justifying Here | 1:04 p.m. March 27, 2008
My ancestors were participants in the MM massacre.
I've investigated and studied this issue from both perspectives. My ancestor was a local church authority, who was very involved in both planning and carrying out this dastardly deed. A couple of points are consistent with my research.
For some weird reason the locals got whipped up into revenge frenzy, even though the Arkansas folks had nothing to do with the wrongs done to Mormons in Missouri and Illinois, and most sadly, it was religiously justified.
The local participants in the MM conspiracy did have permission from higher up to do this deed. How high is not known. This is very consistent throughout the research. (Fact is, there is both pro and con to this argument, each side with considerable counter facting.)
That said, I am appalled and sorrowful at what my ancestors did. They are NOT vindicated. I am saddened that the M. Church choose to cover up the facts for over a century and though it has now apologized on behalf of its members for this dark point of its history, it still insists on keeping the MM site instead of turning it over to the National Parks service. Sad.
I've investigated and studied this issue from both perspectives. My ancestor was a local church authority, who was very involved in both planning and carrying out this dastardly deed. A couple of points are consistent with my research.
For some weird reason the locals got whipped up into revenge frenzy, even though the Arkansas folks had nothing to do with the wrongs done to Mormons in Missouri and Illinois, and most sadly, it was religiously justified.
The local participants in the MM conspiracy did have permission from higher up to do this deed. How high is not known. This is very consistent throughout the research. (Fact is, there is both pro and con to this argument, each side with considerable counter facting.)
That said, I am appalled and sorrowful at what my ancestors did. They are NOT vindicated. I am saddened that the M. Church choose to cover up the facts for over a century and though it has now apologized on behalf of its members for this dark point of its history, it still insists on keeping the MM site instead of turning it over to the National Parks service. Sad.
Linda | 1:00 p.m. March 27, 2008
If you want to know how these descendants of the Arkansas massacred group are
looking and seeking peace with the Mormon's... go read the M-M-M Frank
Kirkmeans website. quite bizarre!
Reason | 1:08 p.m. March 27, 2008
Is there any one alive today that was alive when this took place? Is there any
one that is trying to cover up what happened or deny responsibility? It is the
past. Get over it and move on.
CougarKeith | 1:10 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:Here'sTheFacts, obviously you don't know about the fresh water
poisoned presumably by these "Innocent" people on the farms while
passing through, which they may or may not have been guilty of committing?
Re:YourDad, I totally agree, but the past is the past and we trod forward NOT
BACKWARD! Besides the Church is the best to honor and preserve that land to
begin with, those Arkansas groups are just sore we own the land is all and it
gets under their skin. The facts are local church leaders did act in the ending
of their lives, but the truth is CHILDREN WERE SPARED, and their decendants live
among us today as LDS people as LDS families adopted them! So poo poo on all
those who condemn the whole church for a wrong, lets condemn all the rest of
Christiandom for the Crusades and the murders of thousands of Jews and Muslims
in the Holy Land during that time frame! Let's condemn every White American
from Arkansas for being a decendant of a slave owner! Let's condemn every
decendant of a slave for being a decendant of Ham, and lets condemn every human
for being a decendant of ADAM & EVE!
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