Deseret News | Leaders warn LDS against money scams

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Leaders warn LDS against money scams

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SFCRETDENNIS | 11:25 a.m. March 14, 2008

We have been warned time and time agin about this and so many other things. It all so proves no one is perfect. Let someone ells mess up and little is said of their beliefs, except the Catholics and the child sex crimes, other wise nothing is said, let a LDS member mess up and it is plastered all over the paper, Mormon did this and Mormon did that.
One thing I do know if you will follow what James said in 1st James V 5-6 you can never go wrong.

Nigerian Scam | 12:35 p.m. March 14, 2008

Utah is the primary target for Nigerian Scams. The Nigerian scams come in different forms.

Mark | 12:32 p.m. March 14, 2008

SFCRETDENNIS,

So maybe we should just stop screwing up so badly!

Comments continue below

Leesa | 12:45 p.m. March 14, 2008

A couple of years ago, we had *4* ladies in our ward dealing Pampered Chef. The party invites were endless. One of the girls I had taught in YW was flabbergasted when she came to my home as a Cutco rep (she was in college) and I wouldn't buy anything. The couple in our ward who do pre-paid legal know better than to contact my husband and I. A Living Scriptures sales rep who came to my home about 4 summers ago (obviously working off a church list, as I live in Texas) was practically livid when I indicated that we wouldn't be purchasing their DVD set. First, he questioned what kind of mother I was, then began going for the guilt line, that his wife was having their first baby and he needed to make sales to support them. I held my tongue, but nearly suggested he should've gone with a more reliable, normal job. Mormons & MLM's ... bad medicine!

Adrienne | 1:42 p.m. March 14, 2008

My ex-husband who happens to be LDS, was probably one of those who was too trusting. He fell for just about every MLM scheme out there, and would have fallen for a Nigerian scam if he didn't show me that e-mail. Most people I know who are LDS have a strong work ethic, and are very aware of the types of scams out there, so they aren't gullible at all.

Duff | 2:46 p.m. March 14, 2008

It is no accident that Utah is the MLM capital of the world. What does that say about Mormons?

It means that if people make their decisions based on religious trust, on prayer, on a belief in human goodness, they are ripe for the picking.

But when you have more children than you can properly educate, you do strange, desperate things to get cash. Good luck to you all.

Overdone | 4:11 p.m. March 14, 2008

Any product,service or investment including cars, MLM's,insurance,education needs to be weighed and considered properly.

I agree about not using the church as a sole source for clients or business.

Not all MLM's are bad. Consider the folowing:

If you are purchasing an MLM product, ask yourself if there is a real product that actually works? Will it benefit you? What is the one-time cost? Is there a money back guarantee? How long has the company been in business? If I risk losing this money will it ruin me financially?

Answer those questions correctly and you will never go wrong. Those questions also apply to every other purchase you will ever make in Wal-Mart, Sears, JC Penny, IKEA and the local food store.

Some MLM's work just fine. Ours does and continues to do so.

Jon M. Taylor | 4:06 p.m. March 14, 2008

To NY and others re ï¿½ Why was MLM not included in the warning?
Because victims of these schemes rarely file complaints - with law enforcement, the Better Business Bureau, or with Church authorities. In chain selling, every major victim must become a recruiter to recoup costs of ongoing purchases ï¿½ required to qualify for commissions or advancement. They fear consequences from or to those they recruited, or who recruited them - often a close friend or relative. They also are led to believe the MLM is legitimate because law enforcement has not shut them down.

Church authorities wonï¿½t speak out against MLM until enough people complain about it. So please write directly to the First Presidency asking them to warn Church members ï¿½ and to protect the image of the Church (LDS/MLM promoters victimize vulnerable populations worldwide ï¿½ to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars!) Anyone can read the research on LDS involvement in MLM by going to the web site for Consumer Awareness Institute.

Please speak out publicly. Complain. The squeaky wheel gets the grease ï¿½ in law enforcement and in the Church.

ï¿½ Jon M. Taylor, Consumer Awareness Institute

Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. March 14, 2008

To Jon Taylor,

Good to see your comments. You are doing a great work for consumer advocacy.

Keep it up!

mikefromcanada | 8:06 a.m. March 15, 2008

hey brandon , funny I make 2k a month, my wife stays home , we have kids , and guess what ? no debt ! i own my house , my boatS, my 3 CARs and so on , and all in good shape , perfect running condition, or in perfect order if not a car or boat , depends all on what you want and need , i can do with used, and a bit of elbow grease. 75,000 a year ? are you crazy ? i can raise 15 kids on that ! and still have it all , learn to get priorities straight and you can too , btw I also pay my tithes and other offerings in full as well. poor ? me ? not by far ! rich ? yes ! I have the gospel and try to live it ! attached to my possesions ? nope, need it ? prove it , it 's yours ! that simple :)

mikeincanada | 8:20 a.m. March 15, 2008

to timj, no offence intended here but *I* donot live in capitalist central, health care ? free, dwn payment ? not always,, houses? more fair price here,food? much cheaper here again ,same with clothing and the rest , our dollar ? worth more than yours , getting the point yet ? utah gullible ? not really , just a bunch of hard working americans trying to make ends meet in an economy driven by greed, getting sucked in whilst only trying to get a break, SOME, as in any other place in the world , stupid, and greedy of course , but mostly , no , just trying to survive and maybe not quite as perfect as the rest of you finger pointers, whose time is coming, maybe not in money scams , but say , in a layoff or the like , everyone gets hurt, one way or another. I noticed thos , ESPECIALLY the "smug" and "Self righteous" , just an observation take it as you will , prob with more self righteousness and venom spewing.....

Duane Finley | 8:29 a.m. March 15, 2008

It is sad to hear most of the comments not to say there is not some truth in most. The over all picture reminds me of the cycle that goes on in the Book of Mormon. We all have a hunger inside us, to bad that we have a tendancy to satisfy it with material things instead of Spiritual things, like love, service and hard work. My wife and I are debt free and live on less than 20K. When we have a hunger we give love, service and read the scriptures. It has not always been like that. Seems we learn more atleast when we are young by our mistakes. Jesus Christ is the light/example I pray we can all learn to follow Him and those He has set as our leaders in righteouness. Let us be calm as a dove but wise as a fox. We must judge with righteous judgements, not others, but ourselves in all we do say and think.

Anonymous | 9:49 a.m. March 15, 2008

I'm LDS and I have never fallen for an MLM scam, and I have never considered even getting involved. I also have children I support on my own without the help of a father and I haven't gone to desparate measures. We just live on less and materialistic items become non important.
My teenage children have jobs, so they are able to buy the items they need.

Trent | 10:34 a.m. March 15, 2008

Don't judge too quickly or harshly. Yes, I have heard that there is a high amount of fraud and living beyond means within Utah. However, painting the entire LDS population with such a broad brush is an inadequate diagnosis. Have you ever heard of "One for the Money", or visited the Church site, "Provident Living"? If we were truly following the advice of the church, we wouldn't be falling for such schemes.

Fraud is a national problem which is currently feeding on the regional financial illiteracy, illiteracy that may be compounded by the misused trust within the church. It is time for the Utahns, LDS or not, to abandon the ideas of getting rich quick. The advice from the church is not new. You can't expect to fly a plane unless you learn from training and experience. It is the same with making money.

Ray | 11:45 a.m. March 15, 2008

To Trent | 10:34 a.m.,

You and several others claim that the Church teaches principles of frugality, prudence, and providence when it comes to business and financial matters. You are right. Those teachings are available for all to see.

That does not change the statistics. Statistically, Utah is in the top of states for bankruptcy, fraud, and related scams. These numbers are undeniable.

So your point only brings up an important question. If LDS are TAUGHT to beware of scams and fraud and bankruptcy, the numbers demonstrate that THEY AREN'T LISTENING! Why aren't LDS people listening to their leaders? Important question.

NY | 1:10 p.m. March 15, 2008

Mike in Canada, I can't help but comment on your "free" health care. It is most certainly not free. Your ultra high taxes pay for that and still you have severe shortages and waiting times. In fact, Cleveland is now known as the the hip replacement center for Canada because Canadians do not want to wait so long in pain. A few years ago the health care backlog became so bad that British Columbia had to contract with Seattle hospitals. Where would Canada be without the U.S. for a health care outlet? Moreover, Canadian doctors, wanting to make a decent salary, are moving to the U.S. which has been a great concern for Canada. As for Canadian unemployment, it is typcially 2 or 3 percentage points higher than here in the U.S. Sorry to burst your bubble with the facts. I could go on, but I am running out of allowable space. Go to Canada's Frazier Institute for the latest on wait times for health care in Canada.

Patti | 1:16 p.m. March 15, 2008

Someone may have already responded to this because I haven't read all 166 comments, however, let's give Mahonri a little break. He did not say "Leadership of the church" he said "Leadership of Utah". There is a big difference.

Sad but True | 4:02 a.m. March 16, 2008

This is so timely, true and sad. I know, because a specific member of a Stake Presidency is making his living doing exactly what the the first presidency is warning about. Unless these people are actually caught and brought to justice - it just continues and the members are often their prey. But whoever they prey upon, it is still just plain "sin".

MLM Bashers | 10:19 a.m. March 16, 2008

New York Time Best selling author of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" (sold 20 million copies to date)and renowned business expert, Robert Kiyosaki recently said about Network Marketing: "Because I did not gain my fortune from network marketing, I can be more objective about the industry. It's the Business School for people who like to help people...it [offers] a value that goes beyond just the potential of making a lot of money [honestly]. I finally found a business with a heart and a deep caring for people." Network Marketing is actually taught at the University level, one in particular is the University of Illinois at Chicago by Harvard Grad, Dr. Charles King. He is a network marketing expert and has been quoted in the Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune and many other publications. Check out the Direct Selling Organization for real facts. It is the national trade association of the leading firms that manufacture and distribute goods and services sold directly to consumers, including MLM. Part of the Association's mission is to ensure that the marketing by member companies of products and/or the direct sales opportunity is conducted with the highest level of business ethics and service to consumers."

KC | 9:15 p.m. March 16, 2008

4 years ago my wife and I decided after much prayer that she should stay home and she was expecting our first child at the time. I was making 45K. We continued to trust in the Lord and opportunities came our way. I'm now self employed in a commercial construction field making 120K. Now able to buy nice things like house, car, truck, etc. I'm finding out that even if you have the means it's not always good to spend money on worldly things. The more you spend the more you are driven to spend. The counsel is very important to me. We are a very blessed people and we have to be carefull not to become worldly. We should save and invest wisely and we can help a lot of people along the way.

Anonymous | 12:14 a.m. March 17, 2008

Why aren't any of my comments being posted? Am I banned?

RE: MLM Bashers | 2:22 a.m. March 17, 2008

Robert Kiyosaki is not necessarily the best resources to be using to defend MLM. I, myself, consider him to be part of financial fraud since it has been verified that he has repeatedly lied over and over again and has made his millions off of dumb and gullible people. For more information on the truth behind Robert Kiyosaki, google "John T. Reed's analysis of Robert T. Kiyosaki" to find the truth. Needless to say, the man has become an expert con artist.

NY | 6:08 a.m. March 17, 2008

Anyone in finance/economics can tell you that Kyosyki is not a good resource or model to follow. I read his books and there were several red flags. If this is the best MLM/pyramid defenders can come up with, they are in deep trouble.

NY | 8:24 a.m. March 17, 2008

Dear "banned",

I don't know why I am writing this because I doubt it will get posted. Some of my comments have not been posted and I have no idea why. It seems to be very arbitrary. One comment will be posted and then another that elaborates a little more in response to someone else will not "make the cut". It is truely frustrating to spend time writing and not have it posted for who knows what reason. The last one that was not posted was in response to someone who said that their MLM works fine. I pointed out that it may work fine for them, but it does not work fine for their victims who pay multiple times what the product is worth so the difference can flow up the pyramid (I elaborated in more detail). I also pointed out that the MLM/pyramid type of distribution system for goods and services is not economically efficient and the fact that some people actually make some money off this scheme does not mean it "works fine". Anyway, for this I was banned. I guess it comes down to whether or not the monitor agrees with you. Very Frustrating indeed.

MLM's not Mormons Fault | 8:55 a.m. March 17, 2008

The reason Utah is the MLM capital has nothing to do with the LDS people. It has everything to do with the Utah legislature. (I realize it is mostly LDS) The laws in Utah are the easiest in the country to pass off an MLM as a legitimate business. In most states companies have to sell over 40% of there product to consumers. In Utah businesses can count their distributors (the people who sign up to sell the goods) as consumers so they don't actually have to have a consumer base. So write your legislator and our attorney general and let them know what you think of MLM's in our state if you want things to change.

returned to utah | 9:07 a.m. March 17, 2008

My whole take on this "discussion" is that we all need to stop making judgements on other people and just do what's best for you. There's nothing wrong with MLM's or Robert Kiyosaki or real estate investing as long as it is done within the law. If you want to join a MLM, you just need to realize that you must work at it, and not expect to sit back and let the money roll in. You also need to do your research or due diligence. We need to be skeptical of investments to the point that we research it and make sure it fits with our goals and beliefs. And guess what? Praying about it is just plain good sense!!!

MLM Bashers | 1:19 p.m. March 17, 2008

If you're not happy about Kiyosaki's reputation, try Dr. King, and more importantly, the Direct Selling Organization. Check out how much good most of these companies are doing in the world. If you're ambitious and want to provide better for your family, or make it possible for a spouse to stay home and raise your own children, if inhibited by finances, instead of someone else doing it for you, you have a few options: 1) Hope you can get a good raise at work (and continue working for someone else and their goals and amitions, instead of own) 2) Invest hundreds of thousands in a franchise (I wish I had that kind of cash) 3) Start your own business (after 2nd mortgaging out your house) 4) Invest under $500 to get set up in your own direct selling business, once you've done your due diligence (prayed about it, acted wisely, etc.) and provide a valid, worthwhile product to consumers. Personally, I'm grateful when someone shares something they believe in with me - if they're nice about and not pushy. It's really unfortunate that the few bad apples have left so many others with a bad taste in their mouths.

MLM's Products | 1:53 p.m. March 17, 2008

What MLM's sell a worthwhile product at a normal price? I think many have good products, but they claim to sell products this way to save money for the consumer. $50 Juices, $120 Vitamins. That doesn't sound like savings to the consumer to me.

Dave | 3:21 p.m. March 17, 2008

I totally agree. We should invest with long-established brokerage firms--like Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, UBS, Citibank, etc.

Why didn't I think of this sooner?

Anonymous | 6:26 p.m. March 17, 2008

I have the utmost compassion for my LDS friends who are being duped by their LDS brothers and sisters.
It's like a huge dysfunctional family.

Yes, because | 8:45 p.m. March 17, 2008

They have people from church that they consider "family" and that they can't believe would do them any harm. It is sad, but true.

Nicholaus | 12:00 a.m. March 18, 2008

People, we need to learn to get along and trust one another. Yes there are scams out there but they aren't only mormons doing them. Learn to trust in your leaders. Our First Presidency is simply trying to guide and direct you. Be honest in all your dealings, if you aren't you need to do a check up. You can hide your business dealings from people but you can't hide them from God and that' who you will have to answer to in the end. Our country is in financial ruin because of interest onlys and arms, cash value insurance and poor investments. Be smart, stay out of debt, save your money, buy term life. Statistically our country has a savings rate of -1.6% so i don't care who you are and what your living off of, you aren't saving! As for my family, I rent a home, drive a 05 ford minivan, 99 nissan maxima, I don't have a big screen or new furniture and I still need 60 plus thousand a year to live on. That's paying tithing, saving 20% of my gross income and living modestly. That doesn't mean I am happy with that either.

Nicholaus | 12:15 a.m. March 18, 2008

I really love the comments by people who say I have no debt except my house or no debt except my car. So your saying that 175 thousand dollar mortgage isn't debt or that 30 thousand dollar car isn't debt. Get Real!!! you have debt own up to it. It is unfortunate that spouses do have to work outside the homes and i'll agree sometimes it is neccesary. The problem with our country as far as jobs is we don't get paid enough. The average salary is 27 thousand a year thats why it takes 2 to 3 jobs to live a moderate lifestyle. Gas prices are ridiculous which is a whole subject on it's own, so get to the real point of this whole article. Beware of the investment scams, research the company and the credibility it has don't just take a persons word for it (which is unfortunate we can't just do that) We are all trying to succeed and have to make money off of each other whether it's a mlm, tire shop, grocery store, restraunt, clothing or shoe store, contractor, pool service, yard care. It all is the same so be honest with each other!

Thank you NY | 1:08 a.m. March 18, 2008

My relatives are losing their houses because of an MLM fraud scheme and I can't get the story posted.

Jon Taylor | 6:55 a.m. March 19, 2008

To "Thank you NY":
Contact Consumer Awareness Institute (Google search) with your complaint about your relatives losing their house due to an MLM scam. There is also an action page on their web site. Please let us try to help.

Readers - please also note the "MyViews" article in today's Deseret News titled "Multi-level Marketing is Top Scam." Just note that the web site address is incorrect. It should have been mlm-the truth.com. They left out the dash; people will go to the wrong site without the dash.

Jon M. Taylor, MBA, Phd., Consumer Awareness Institute

Calju | 12:47 a.m. March 22, 2008

I'm surprised no one has really brought up PRIDE much in this debate. I overheard someone recently discussing how she and her husband decided to send her back to work full time so they could buy a cabin, which she stated was a "righteous desire." Her words, not mine. The adversary knows he can't get to Mormons through his traditional means, so he is using pride to drive us from wise and prudent decisions.

Who cares what your neighbors own? Who cares what brand clothes you wear? What, you do? Then you have a problem with pride. If you are convinced to participate in some ridiculous scam or MLM (and defend them all you want, people, they are still a total racket) because you will make money hand over fist, you are a victim of your own pride. You can see yourself with the biggest house, the most expensive car...or you can see yourself out of debt, can't you? Sorry, but if you can't see the scam coming despite prophetic warning, you have no one to blame but the person you see in the mirror.

MJ from Washington St | 9:50 a.m. March 22, 2008

This whole discussion is significant for me because I am in a comission based business for a service that is unusual. A type of service that makes bold claims and can easily be met with skepticism unless the client takes the time to understand how my claims are achieved. I have intentionally stayed away from ward members and members in general- not because the service is sound and valid but because I feel strange about mixing that relationship with any kind of business. I figure unless they come to me then I wont sell to a member that I would not have known unless I was lds.
My brother in law was recently rebaptized when he married my wifes sister and was very "young" in the Gospel. He got a call from a ward member (same age roughly) as an invitation to hang out and get to know each other. Turned out, he wanted to sell him life insurance and be his fin. planner. Boy was I HOT. This story is way to common. KEEP BUSINESS OUT OF THE TEMPLE.

Heartbroken | 11:43 a.m. June 20, 2009

I am not one to talk too much as I like things to be honest, straight forward, fair and to the point with no nonsense.

I am an investigator of the Church and this for 10-15 years. I like the Church. One scripture I cherish is D&C 1 :30.

It came to my knowledge that two members of the church were and are involved in Ponzi scheme, fraudulent investment and business schemes..

I kept this information to myself for a while but is was burning inside me because IMO it was not right.

I was told by a member to go to the Bishop. After some reflexion I did. The Bishop is a Godly man. He did what he did. I got no feedback nor do I want to know.

Those two members IMO are still up to no good.
..... continue

Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. June 29, 2009

It came to my attention that two members of the Church were and are involved in Ponzi schemes, fraudulent investment and business schemes.

Was advised by a friend (member) to go to Bishop which I did. Bishop is a godman.

These two members are still up to no good, preying on the goodness of people (members and non-members).

I got an hear-full from this same friend member that had advised me to go to Bishop for gossiping. IMO, he was very defensive and protective of these two members. My guess is it because of promises of returns of up to 30% ? . is it that I am a non-member ? He makes me feel as though I am the bad guy. The only thing I want is to protect members and non-members from been scammed.

I need to make a decision on whether to continue as an investigator or abandon the Church. Any advice would be appreciated.

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