Deseret News | Leaders warn LDS against money scams

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Leaders warn LDS against money scams

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Honest Answer to Timj | 1:10 p.m. March 13, 2008

We are buying a house right now. It's a cheap house, so it's not a huge down-payment. We've been looking for a few years, it's takes a ton of time and effort to find cheap houses that are in good enough condition to live in. We make 22K. We have two kids. We use a budget and don't cheat on it. We put some money in a savings account evey time we get paid. That savings account has saved us many times! We make do with less. We have one car, which we paid cash for. We pay cash for everything. We take cash to the grocery store, and if the bill comes to more than we have with us we decide what we can do without. We shop yard sales and thrift stores. We research big purchases to find the best deal. We rarely buy new.

californian | 1:24 p.m. March 13, 2008

Are you kidding me? look at the nation as a whole...Mormons seem to fall for this stuff just like everybody else...they are almost like people! Growing up I was taught never to do business with anyone from church or family...ever...it's as good of advice now as ever. Beyond that, my dad always told me to think and then act...how very unAmerican that seems now. I used to work for a man ( a prince among men to be honest) who is Mexican American and refuses to do any business with any establishment who says "Se Habla Espanol"! Make people earn your trust and your business.

Financial Advisors | 1:39 p.m. March 13, 2008

Most financial advisors make their money on the investments they sell and know little other than they were "told" to push that stock or investment at a sales meeting. Be careful.

One of the largest scams that came through Utah about 25 years ago took in about 50% of the doctors in Utah. In particular Dentists were hit hard. The man used to sell dental equipment. Well that isn't surprising.

What was surprising to me is that he took in ONE THIRD of all the ATTORNEYS in town. People constantly say to run financial decisions past your attorney. Realize most are not that well trained in investments. On this paricular scam, one of the prosecutors said that ANYONE that would have seriously checked into it would not have invested.

Few people did. They invested because their neighbor, local celebrity or even general authority had invested or been involved.

Check out all the details. Do not take for granted anything the person wanting your money claims. Use common sense and pick up some books or take some classes on investment. If you don't understand what you are investing in and how your it works. Don't.

Comments continue below

houses | 1:36 p.m. March 13, 2008

I found a house in Layton for $170. We saved for the down payment for 3 years. We got a FAA loan which gives us a 5% interest rate so what we are paying for rent will actually pay for the loan. Don't let your real estate agent do the whole searching. Spend your time at the internet and you will get a REAL idea about what's going on. Also, if you want to live in those "high" areas, yes, get ready to pay the price, otherwise, you can find nice houses at reasonable prices in areas that are just being developed. We all want to live in nice neigborhoods but that does not mean you have to live in Park City to get a nice house. My in-laws moved to a better area and there they have problems with their kids trying to keep up with the Jones. They wished they didn't move because they did it for a better house. They fell into the trap.

ca | 1:38 p.m. March 13, 2008

WM, MLM's by definition are a scam. Maybe your wife is doing well, but she is making money off of other peoples failures. In order for an MLM to work, you have to sale a propsective MLMer that they will make it rich. BUt in order for this to work for you and all other upliners, most of these prospects have to fail.

If everyone succeeded as promised, in a short time, the entire world would be a part of that MLM.

WM, if your wife is an honest person, she would stop making money off of others peoples failures. Get out.

observer | 1:46 p.m. March 13, 2008

I once knew a man who put it this way in regard to religion and money...."Every time somebody starts telling me how religious they are, I feel like a new bride. I know I'm going to get it, but I don't know when or how much."

Spanky | 1:54 p.m. March 13, 2008

It's easy for con men to take advantage of greedy people.

Dave | 1:57 p.m. March 13, 2008

Sometimes a business will go bad when you work with a bunch of jerks! And if this kind of thing happens to you-- suddenly are demonized within the ward you live in by the members who you have done business with--as the ward scam artist. Not all people who get into business with the wrong people are scam artists. Sometimes they have associates and partners who even scam their partners and then will lead the whole company straight to hell. It's probably a good idea to check-out your business partner or partners before striking a close partnership with him/her as well, because if he is a evil scam artist, and he goes down-- so will you!

Don't be scared off... | 2:09 p.m. March 13, 2008

Some investments are actually GOOD! When we were young we were cautioned NOT to buy our small house until we could afford to pay cash. (Most likely never would have happened since values raised faster than we could save.)

I'm so grateful my husband wasn't as fearful and indoctrinated as I was, we would have missed our greatest opportunity.

PerhapsThou | 2:13 p.m. March 13, 2008

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just ï¿½

But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this, the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

For behold, are we not all beggars?

MLM's are part of the problem | 2:31 p.m. March 13, 2008

Most successful multi level marketing reps make a major part of thier money off of people that never make a dime.

Anonymous | 2:46 p.m. March 13, 2008

Stupid is as stupid does.

Matt --- To ca... | 3:00 p.m. March 13, 2008

To ca...

I like you do not chase MLM schemes, these are not worth my time. But, your tone is rather spiteful, and full of hate and anger. Your words are uncalled for against that man's wife.

To: WOW | 3:09 p.m. March 13, 2008

To WOW: "What Moron is still falling for these scams?
Kudos to the first presidency though, for making this statement."

You answered this question with the last sentence.

Since the Mormon presidency addressed this to their members, I guess that's your answer as to who still falls for this scams?

They know that, there morons out there who falls for it, otherwise, they wouldn't make the statement.

2penniesworth | 3:23 p.m. March 13, 2008

Timj. I have 8 kids. I stay home most the time. Hubby makes 45K a year. We have a nice home - not too bit, in fact a bit smallish. We just bought it last year. Our first home purchase. How did we do it?
We did not have cable that's 50 bucks a month we saved.

We did not eat out. That's about 100 a month.

We don't have car payments. That's 300 a month (or more!).

Just in that, we've saved 450 a month. Timex the 5 years we saved for the house.... you get the rest.

THATS how we did it

Oh, and we don't have health care insurance. We do have insurance in case we land in the hospital. With that $ we don't spend on premiums each month, we put away. When someone needs to go to the doc, we pay in cash, out of that fund. It's cheaper, and works just fine for this family of 10.

My Posts Has Also Been Rejected | 3:29 p.m. March 13, 2008

To: " Why don't you post my comments?"

Several of my comments also was not posted.

Unlike you, I do know why. It's not because of the outrageous gross misrepresentation, or what not, but it's because the Deseret News is owned by the LDS church, and it's only following it's own policy that's been around since the beginning of their church, that is, to not challenge the church or its doctrines.

The people that monitor this works in essence, works for the church, and they have to follow the commandments of keeping the church, pure, pristine and unadulterated as they see it, therefore, it's not unusual of surprising for me to learn, even in the free, unopinionated, unbiased press, unfortunately, are not free, very opinionated, and highly biased journalism.

They eliminate those who are not like them, and they certainly don't like you when you don't have their point of view. This is the Deseret News I've come to know from forums like this, and it goes all the way to the top.

why don't they Post comments? | 3:31 p.m. March 13, 2008

Here in SE utah, at the price of $$$111 million dollars a Ponzi scam was ran W/the operation following the idea of stealing from Peter to pay Paul. This involved an ex-county commissioner and his son who now occupy a cell in federal prison. What irks me the most as a taxpayer is the audacity of several citizens who ran full page ads giving support to these two scoudrels while they were facing these charges. You could have just went over and gave them a hug not pretend they were some kind of Matyrrs.The GA who caught them in Minnesota probably had no idea of their stature in the mormon community in this county. But again in a lame show of support while this case was still in the federal courts, some group bestowed a citizenship of the year award on the ex-commissioner as if to influence the court in his worthiness. Needless to say the ploy did not work. That's alot of money which school districts nationwide are missing. The sanctity of the child has been tarnished and to try to white wash the ordeal by certain administrations is to lie to the parents and children who are effected!!

on why don't they post comments? | 3:42 p.m. March 13, 2008

Instead of GA ..meant AG as in Attorney General.

Anonymous | 3:37 p.m. March 13, 2008

Beware of false prophets
and snakeoil salesmen

To- Moron scam guy | 3:38 p.m. March 13, 2008

Wow! that was a bright, brilliant intelligent statement! Looks like some kind of moron thinking coming out from under some basement floorboard. Do I smell a rat or what?

Anony | 3:46 p.m. March 13, 2008

I have a close relative who lent a Utahn close to $100 years ago with some mining stock and handshake for security. The mining stock was worthless as was the handshake. Lost it all. The scammer's pitch was as slick as snot on a doorknob. And, to this day he goes to church every Sunday.

Another Adam | 3:47 p.m. March 13, 2008

Are there any other ways I can eat bread without getting any sweat on my brow?

Any one?

Re:Financial Advisors | 3:43 p.m. March 13, 2008

Its no wonder the most wealthy and successful people in our country use a Financial Advisor and statistically, Investors who use a Advisor make more money on their Investments than the "Do it yourselfers" Do you expect Financial reps to work for free? And NO, I am not told to sell any product from anyone and YES I think I know about my business as I have been helping clients for 33 years.I now work 2 days a week not because I have to financially, but because I like to help my clients. How many of these people who got scamed would love to work with a Financial advisor now? Please be careful about making comments about a Industry you dont know anything about. In life, you usually get what you pay for!!

Financial Advisors thoughout Utah

Roger | 3:53 p.m. March 13, 2008

When one looks at all the preposterous things mormons believe in and accept for fact it is not hard to understand how they are the ideal dupe for scams. Mormons grow up with the wool over their eyes.

Paperboy | 3:54 p.m. March 13, 2008

LDS members are taught to obey positions of power and authority. When scam artists and con men use their church conditions and positions of leadership in connection with business dealings, it is very difficult for faithful members to resist. Thinking skeptically and questioning authority is simply not encoded in the psychological DNA of faithful Latter-day Saints. Unless members are taught that it's ok (or even better, beneficial) to question and think for themselves, this kind of thing will continue to go on.

Paperboy | 4:01 p.m. March 13, 2008

So stupid. You deserve to get taken.
Don't be stupid.

Did I mention. I think those investing are the problem. They are trying to scam money out of the honest worker.

Real Estate and Mortgages | 4:24 p.m. March 13, 2008

One of the problems is that Loan officers, Financial advisors, and Realtors are commissioned based. Meaning, they make no money unless they make sales. That being said Loan officers are telling you what you can qualify for not what you can afford. Realtors are telling you that now is the best time to buy, when really home prices are going down. etc. Not all of the truth is told in these deals, because they too, need to feed their families, so there is a conflict of interest that usually comes up between protecting you, and making a dollar for their families and or spending habits.

bad talk radio... | 4:24 p.m. March 13, 2008

I keep reading that it is the darned talk radio that is making people gullible enough to fall for these financial scams.
Just a note; listen to Dave Ramsey ( on the radio ) at 7pm. and see the ignorant stuff that is being discussed on the evil radio. or you can get news and information from the same old same old.

ca | 4:22 p.m. March 13, 2008

matt,

I've learned that when dealing with people involved in MLM's you have to be blunt and harsh. Otherwise, they don't get it. Most successful MLM's do not believe they are perpetrating a fraud.

I personally have never been scamed by an MLM, but plently of my friends and relatives have. You have to also be just as blunt with people thinking of joining an MLM, otherwise, their greed gets the best of them.

beware of insurance salesmen | 4:24 p.m. March 13, 2008

people also fall to the scams of the big and alleged trustworthy banks and insurance companies and from registered reps who claim to be financial planners because they show you some cool charts some software spit out and gave you a plan... a plan to put your money in mutual funds and insurance product which underperform the market as a whole and receive no review... products layden with ridiculous fees which make driving on the freeway in 1st geer look efficient... Countless people have their financial planner who is really just an insurance salesman come over and sell them an insurance policy with will one day supposedly help with retirement.. pay off the mortgage or pay for college... this is all non-sense... people can do better than that... people can also do better chosing their own stocks and mutual funds rather than investing with these so called planners who put you in products which pay the best commissions rather than products which consistently offer better performance and lower fees... not to mention that your planner never will review the performance of your investment... do it yourself and do better...

To paperboy | 4:35 p.m. March 13, 2008

Nobody "deserves" to get taken. "Investors" are NOT the problem. Where would our country be if no one was willing to invest their money? Investors are NOT trying to "scam money out of the honest worker."

Investors are actually trying to help those who need more money.

An abundance of dishonest, greedy, uneducated, and unqualified people are the problem, not the investors.

Not the problem | 4:44 p.m. March 13, 2008

Investing is NOT the problem. Investing wisely is the key! Trusting others is a GOOD thing, as long as that trust is justified by experienced research. Hiding our money in a mattress really doesn't help anyone.

It's okay to invest wisely | 4:50 p.m. March 13, 2008

You don't always "have to" sacrifice basics to be financially successful. Buying a solid home in a safe and re-salable area was the best investment we ever made.

Some people make the mistake of simply buying what's cheapest in order to save money. It's important to live within our means, but that doesn't mean being so extremely frugal that you miss out on the real opportunities that our out there.

Just don't invest more than you can afford to lose, and don't put all your eggs in one basket, or if you do, guard that basket!!!

amusing to watch | 5:23 p.m. March 13, 2008

It's alway amusing to read about scam artists out-scamming their fellow scammers.

Advisors and Agents | 5:29 p.m. March 13, 2008

There are clear differences between MLM's and Financial Advisors and insurance agents. Someone who sells in an MLM doesn't have to be licensed with the state (insurance) or registered with the NASD (securities). Most insurance agents and investment advisors carry Errors and Omissions coverage to cover them (and their clients). Securities and insurance are regulated by states and the federal government. Many securities are backed by the SiPC in cases of failure or default.

Of course, people need to do their homework. They can check the financial rating of an insurance carrier and do a plethora of research on the internet. You can base investment decisions on facts and past experience. MLMs, Ponzi Schemes, and other vehicles of their ilk rely on testimonials, pomp, and false encouragement.

If I had enough disposable money to invest, I would most definitely visit a financial advisor. I'm relatively young, but hope to be in a situation soon where I can consult with a financial planner.

I'm glad the First Presidency is reiterating sound financial principles. I think we all can learn (especially in tough times) to be more wise in our financial dealings.

wrz | 5:29 p.m. March 13, 2008

What's wrong with living beyond your means? If things don't pan out you can always declare bankruptcy and it all goes away. And you've had a lot of fun in the mean time.

Fantasy? That's exactly what is likely to happen in the sub-prime debacle bailout.

Anonymous | 5:50 p.m. March 13, 2008

My, don't election years coupled with an unpopular war and the economy going down the toilet bring out the best in people?

Re: beware of Insurance guys? | 6:27 p.m. March 13, 2008

Some of the Families I help are glad they didn't take your advice when I presented the widow with a 750,000 check due to a premature death of a husband. If these families would have listen to you, they wouldn't have any Income coming to maintain a household of children, pay for future college expenses, Missions and weddings and to pay off any Debt. Insurance Salesmen are the only people who show up after a funeral giving out money, rather than having their hand out asking for money. Listening to comments from people like you are why a lot of people get into trouble in the first place!!

Scam Artists | 6:28 p.m. March 13, 2008

Real estate "flippers" are scam artists. They produce nothing of value. They basically beat someone in line, bought the house, and turned around and said, "you can have it, but it's gonna cost you $30k" more than I paid for it yesterday." Thus young couples and others buying a home they actually need, decide to buy from the flippers for fear that home prices will continue rising. Considering interest, the flipper costs the family approximately $60k over the 30 year period of the loan. What service did the flipper provide??? If you said nothing, you're absolutely right. I hope these "flippers" are the ones getting hurt by the mortgage crisis. Due to the true need everyone needing somewhere to live, I believe real estate "flipping" is unethical. Unfortunately, I know many otherwise good people who got sucked into taking advantage of others by housing means.

Anonymous | 7:59 p.m. March 13, 2008

Cars are never an investment.
Only a necessary evil.

Anonymous | 10:48 p.m. March 13, 2008

Whoever said cars were an investment? I'd hope that's common knowledge now.
To those who are tooting their horns on how they've lived on nothing so the rest of us should be able to...please remember, some of us are hit harder than others. My husband and I started out our marriage with savings and no car payment. However, the car that had no car payment kept breaking down. We needed the transportation, and although my husband can do some minor repair work, he couldn't drop engines or diagnose electrical problems. Our savings couldn't keep up with the repairs. Then, I've had three years straight with medical problems. We can't keep up with all of those (even though I have insurance). Basic fact is that every time we start catching up, stuff goes wrong. Just count your blessings that it hasn't happened to you and don't be so harsh on those of us that are trying.

Honestly | 12:01 a.m. March 14, 2008

I think the reason so many people fall for scams and get rich schemes is old fashioned greed.

Outside Utah | 12:55 a.m. March 14, 2008

Unlike many comments about a handful of LDS scammers in Utah, there are many scammers of all races and religions throughout the world. This letter was sent to congregations outside of Utah as well. Fraud is occuring everywhere, especially to single women by other "businessmen" who try to earn their trust. My single mom in CA was sold a subprime loan when she refinanced and Countrywide cheated her out of $180K in less than 2 years. My sister received two fraudulant cashiers checks for her car she was selling in the classifieds. My widowed grandma was cheated out of $200k by her realtor. My advice is to beware of everyone.

AEP | 2:18 a.m. March 14, 2008

Letï¿½s hear our prophets. Thatï¿½s enough.

NY | 6:56 a.m. March 14, 2008

I think "Investing Smart" meant to say that he invested his money in a mutual fund while his brother bought a car instead. Cars are a personal use asset, NOT an investment. Also, thank you Jon Taylor for your great website on the dangers of MLMs. As I stated in an earlier post, I wish the brethren would issue a statement about these. That there are so many in Utah (especially in Utah Valley) is such an embarrassment. They target the poor of the world and are a particularly cruel scam. Another good resource about how these cleverly disguised pyramid schemes work is False Profits by Robert Fitzpatrick. Google this to find his website.

WM | 8:28 a.m. March 14, 2008

To ca: you mistakenly assume when I said "my spouse" I meant a wife. It's my HUSBAND, and MLM's are a legitimate business. I have an MBA and learned about MLM's in my Entrepreneurial marketing class in GRAD SCHOOL.
Also, the rate of fraud, etc. seems higher among Mormons because there is a large network built right in. If you're looking for anything, you go by the recommendations of friends and people you know. If you're Mormon, those "recommendations" end up coming from other Mormons. Duh.

Eminence Front | 9:25 a.m. March 14, 2008

What rich irony. The LDS profit telling church members to watch out for scams when the Mormon Church is one of the biggest religious frauds in the last 200 years

NY | 9:44 a.m. March 14, 2008

WM, Where are earth did you go to grad school? I can't imagine any reputable university teaching that MLM is a legitimate form of business. The fact that they are LEGAL (I will never understand why the FTC doesn't shut these down) does not make them LEGITIMATE. Looks like your professor needs to update his own education. See the False Profits book and Website as well as Jon Taylor's (who posted earlier) book and website if you want the facts on MLMs.

Trying to save money? | 10:04 a.m. March 14, 2008

I worry about all the people out there who in an attempt to "save money" are doing without basics like health insurance. The family of ten may be surviving well now, because of their thriftiness, but I'm afraid they may be one sickness away from bankruptcy.

Perhaps, we as a society, need to do more to make health care affordable. This seems to be a major issue for many families, and the current system doesn't seem to be working very well.

My neighbors pay over $13,000 a year for health insurance for a family of 4. Fortunately, for now, they can afford this, but what happens when their business slows down?

I worry that the upcoming recession may push many of us, who smugly think we are okay financially, right over the edge.

Perhaps we need to help enact better laws BEFORE the disaster strikes.

Doubletalk | 11:15 a.m. March 14, 2008

Interesting that so many comments say this happens because the church teaches us to be gullible, yet the whole reason for this article is the church telling us NOT to be gullible. Mormons are not susceptible to fraud because they follow the teachings of the church. They are susceptible to fraud because they DON'T follow the teachings of the church.

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