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Leaders warn LDS against money scams
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Anonymous | 1:17 a.m. March 13, 2008
Why are we so vulnerable to fraud? It's a well known fact that many Utahns
live beyond their means. Both parents work so they can lavish their children
with all the luxuries...now called necessities...of life. Most teens today
drive their own cars and have their own cell phones,all paid for by mom and dad.
Pres. Monson has made the statement that most of us have "a year's
supply of debt" instead of a year's supply of food and other
necessities. We've lost our common sense and judgment.
I have no sympathy for losers | 2:13 a.m. March 13, 2008
The article quotes Charlene Barlow of the Utah Attorney General's office as
saying, "I have victims that sit here and they say, 'I can't
believe I was so stupid. But you know, he was a church member. He was in my
ward. He was my bishop.' So they check their skepticism at the
door."
Anyone who says this is stupid and I feel no level of sympathy for them. I'm as likely as the next person to be the victim of fraud but it won't be because I put aside my common sense and thought that a Church member, Ward member or Bishop couldn't commit fraud when there are members who commit rape, murder, robbery and all sort of crimes include fraud and child molestation.
Even Apostles have been excommunicated from the Church for committing egregious sins. Far to many people see those in the Church differently than they would see someone else and its wrong. This is why Utah's fraud rate is higher than a lot of other places and this has a correlation to idiots in the Church committing fraud and being dumb enough to allow another mother to defraud them. Shame on all of you morons.
Anyone who says this is stupid and I feel no level of sympathy for them. I'm as likely as the next person to be the victim of fraud but it won't be because I put aside my common sense and thought that a Church member, Ward member or Bishop couldn't commit fraud when there are members who commit rape, murder, robbery and all sort of crimes include fraud and child molestation.
Even Apostles have been excommunicated from the Church for committing egregious sins. Far to many people see those in the Church differently than they would see someone else and its wrong. This is why Utah's fraud rate is higher than a lot of other places and this has a correlation to idiots in the Church committing fraud and being dumb enough to allow another mother to defraud them. Shame on all of you morons.
Comments continue below
Moron | 2:15 a.m. March 13, 2008
Hate to say it but lots of people are falling for them. I also hate to say a
lot of these multi-level marketing schemes masquerading as real businesses. I
am not saying all MLM are bad, just that the model is used by many in a bad way.
It's not secret that Utah is the capital of MLM and for the most part the
claims of the products is pure hogwash, some of it is probably real hogwash.
SJ Bobkins | 2:17 a.m. March 13, 2008
Many people who are victimized, made their choice to invest not on the basis of
an unrealistic return but because they trusted their church friend, church
leader, family member, and went along with whatever that person said.
I am LDS and was in a ward where one very outgoing and seemingly successful man persuaded enough people to invest in his company to gather $75 million dollars for himself. Eventually he was caught but not before destroying the trust of many others. Invest because it's a good investment not because you know that the person is an active member of his church and couldn't possibly be a crook. There are crooks in every church, every neighborhood and they prey on those they know and those who trust them. If your a crook where do you go to find suckers? Right at home
I am LDS and was in a ward where one very outgoing and seemingly successful man persuaded enough people to invest in his company to gather $75 million dollars for himself. Eventually he was caught but not before destroying the trust of many others. Invest because it's a good investment not because you know that the person is an active member of his church and couldn't possibly be a crook. There are crooks in every church, every neighborhood and they prey on those they know and those who trust them. If your a crook where do you go to find suckers? Right at home
Trek | 2:46 a.m. March 13, 2008
You'd be surprised how deceiving they can be. After experiencing being the
victim of identity theft, I've opened my eyes to these warning signs.
NEVER, no matter what, give out personal information. That's the first
step in stealing information/money out of your pockets. Do your homework how
you can prevent being the victim to their schemes. You'll be glad you did
because it affected nearly every one of us!
Timj | 5:15 a.m. March 13, 2008
I wonder if there's a correlation between those who believe what they hear
on talk radio and those who get scammed.
In any case, far too much gullibility going on. Too much trust and not enough thinking.
In any case, far too much gullibility going on. Too much trust and not enough thinking.
Jon | 5:17 a.m. March 13, 2008
I think the bottom line is greed.
We know gambling is wrong because it's trying to get something for nothing. But we just don't get that the latest great scheme is akin to gambling. We are still trying to get something for close to nothing. I just don't understand why people think they can trust other members with their money. I have seen this happen soooo many times over the years and not just in the United States. I have lived by the mantra to NEVER get into business with family or members of the church. Nothing but trouble and bitterness awaits you. It has served me well while I have seen some good friends and family burned.
We know gambling is wrong because it's trying to get something for nothing. But we just don't get that the latest great scheme is akin to gambling. We are still trying to get something for close to nothing. I just don't understand why people think they can trust other members with their money. I have seen this happen soooo many times over the years and not just in the United States. I have lived by the mantra to NEVER get into business with family or members of the church. Nothing but trouble and bitterness awaits you. It has served me well while I have seen some good friends and family burned.
NY | 5:20 a.m. March 13, 2008
Trading on religion is a very common scam and it amazes me that so many fall for
it (I remember seeing "Christian" used car dealers when I lived in
SC). It seemed to be especially rampant when I lived in FL. All it took was a
slick talking huckster to join one of the local mega churches and it was off to
the races. First of all, anyone who would use their faith to promote their
business in any way should be very ashamed. Run the other way, this is a
powerful sign that something is wrong -- regardless of the level of their church
service/calling. I applaud the first presidency for making this statement, but I
have always wondered why they have never warned about the snake oil/pyramid
schemes that flow out of Utah Valley and target the world's poor. Few scams
are so cruel and do so much damage.
GK from England | 5:28 a.m. March 13, 2008
Despite the fact that my wife and I are debt free and very careful with our
money, (we pay for everything with either a debit card or cash) I can see how
easy it is for individuals, couples and families to get into debt without trying
too hard. It seems here in the UK and from what I have read concerning the US
economy, prices and bills e.g petrol (gas) utility bills, grocery costs, rates,
childcare fees, mortgage or rental payments etc etc are continuing to increase
at an alarming rate but wages are not keeping up with inflation. The counsel
from the First Presidency to avoid fraudulent scams and keep out of debt is wise
but concerning the subject of debt, they also need to understand that many
people are trying to live within their means and avoid debt but find it soooo
difficult to afford just the basics in life i.e. food and gas, and many of these
people work hard and pay their taxes.
Formermormer | 5:40 a.m. March 13, 2008
Great article,and all the good sense elements a person of any or no faith needs
to protect themselves from fraud are there except,perhaps,one:
The thing that ultimately makes us vulnerable is
GREED. Miraculous returns appeal to that element of human nature,but common sense should tell us it likely isn't so. The green eyed monster,GREED rears its head,and rationality goes by the wayside.
You're primed to be a victim.
It's simple enough to state,but besides keeeping your skepticism about these 'special deals,just for us',your best insurance is to live within your means so you don't find yourself needy of these great opportunities. If your back isn't already up against the wall,you're not so likely to move forward with something you know in your heart doesn't make sense. Take it from one who knows.
The thing that ultimately makes us vulnerable is
GREED. Miraculous returns appeal to that element of human nature,but common sense should tell us it likely isn't so. The green eyed monster,GREED rears its head,and rationality goes by the wayside.
You're primed to be a victim.
It's simple enough to state,but besides keeeping your skepticism about these 'special deals,just for us',your best insurance is to live within your means so you don't find yourself needy of these great opportunities. If your back isn't already up against the wall,you're not so likely to move forward with something you know in your heart doesn't make sense. Take it from one who knows.
mormon weakness | 6:22 a.m. March 13, 2008
One of the most blatant weakness of Mormons (especially Mormons in high mormon
density areas) is that they believe that financial prosperity, even wealth, is
necessary to both keep up with their fellow worshipers and to show that they too
are "blessed". Thus they fall for get rich quick scams, pyramid
schemes, and the likes. We have lost our financial modesty as a people. We
think that the world drives 40,000 dollar cars so must we. We don't
achieve wealth through hard work and long term education and investment any
more. In a way we have betrayed many of those traits so perfectly exemplified
by our forbearers. What happened to fix it up, make it do or do without? We
should be known as the frugal, hardworking savers not the bottomless
materialistic appetite crew! Our homes are too big, our cars are too expensive,
and we work less and save even less than that....pride goeth before the fall!
Re Anonymous | 6:33 a.m. March 13, 2008
"It is a well known fact that many Utahns live beyond their means"
Wow, I guess growing up my Dad should have known that fact. My senior year of
high school I asked him for help with getting a car and he just laughed and told
me to get a job.
Money scams are prevelant here in the state because those involved have such easy connections. They have their ward directory in one hand and their stake directory in the other. That is like 300 potentional clients or more. Whenever anyone in my ward approaches me with something relating to a new type of investment or new business I listenly kindley but tell them to beat it. Hopefully this statement by the 1st presidency will teach members of the church to not be so foolish in their decisions.
Money scams are prevelant here in the state because those involved have such easy connections. They have their ward directory in one hand and their stake directory in the other. That is like 300 potentional clients or more. Whenever anyone in my ward approaches me with something relating to a new type of investment or new business I listenly kindley but tell them to beat it. Hopefully this statement by the 1st presidency will teach members of the church to not be so foolish in their decisions.
joe | 7:05 a.m. March 13, 2008
I believe that many church members get others into their investments that are
often very risky without disclosing that risk. I always live by the rule that
the closer the person is to me, the more overboard I go in disclosing every
conceivable flaw or risk (way beyond law to disclose). I never want to have
someone close in my ward or my family think I duped them.
Check yourself | 7:12 a.m. March 13, 2008
If you are involved in the "seminar" industry, call centers, most MLM,
companies who use your credit, then you more than likely are in this group or
work for one that preys on stupidity. If the success of your product or service
is around 1 per 1,000 and requires people to front anything for
"coaching" or "training" on how to be successful, then you
need to check yourself and quit your job.
Don't be a part of it.
Don't be a part of it.
dave | 7:07 a.m. March 13, 2008
IF ANY PERSON BRINGS UP THEIR CHURCH POSITION IN ANY INVESTMENT DISCUSSION, OR
BRINGS UP THAT SOME OTHER PROMINENT CHURCH MEMBER HAS JOINED THEIR
INVESTMENT------RUN, DO NOT WALK AWAY!
Lisa | 7:19 a.m. March 13, 2008
Here is one of the latest SCAMS!
Investors fraudulently inflate your bank account temporarily to allow you to qualify for a 2-4 Million dollar insurance policy. They then attempt to sell that to a hedge fund and give you 100K.
That is FRAUD People! Also, having some hedge fund preferring that you are dead isn't comforting either.
Investors fraudulently inflate your bank account temporarily to allow you to qualify for a 2-4 Million dollar insurance policy. They then attempt to sell that to a hedge fund and give you 100K.
That is FRAUD People! Also, having some hedge fund preferring that you are dead isn't comforting either.
joe | 7:18 a.m. March 13, 2008
For some reason, too many Utahns have a blatant disregard for the law. It
frustrates the heck out of me! Here we believe in being Honest in all our
dealings, but we tolerate dishonesty as if it is not dishonesty!
1. Do you finish your basement without permits. if you do you are dishonest.
2. Do you allow your children to skate by on drivers license tests without driving the whole 40 hours?
3. Do you allow your children to drive after their license with other teens
4. Do you knowingly violate zoning laws.
5. Do you blatantly speed
6. Do you stretch the truth on credit applications (Utah has been in the top 5 fraud states for as long as they have kept records)
Stop being Dishonest!
1. Do you finish your basement without permits. if you do you are dishonest.
2. Do you allow your children to skate by on drivers license tests without driving the whole 40 hours?
3. Do you allow your children to drive after their license with other teens
4. Do you knowingly violate zoning laws.
5. Do you blatantly speed
6. Do you stretch the truth on credit applications (Utah has been in the top 5 fraud states for as long as they have kept records)
Stop being Dishonest!
Robert | 7:25 a.m. March 13, 2008
Perhaps we are going too far, but my wife and I make it a practice to not do
business with ward or stake members. We have found that, over the years, when we
do business with people we know in the church, more often than not they tend to
take our business for granted. Also, when we are not happy with their work or
services, we don't have to see them in church the next Sunday. We prefer to
just do business on the basis of reputation without knowing the religious
affiliation of those who we give business to. As I said, that may be going too
far, but we are happier this way.
Anonymous | 7:31 a.m. March 13, 2008
Using your membership of the church to get gain is akin to the priestcrafts in
the Book of Mormon.
Mike Leach | 7:34 a.m. March 13, 2008
Thanks to all. I never thought I'd see the day when so many Mormons would
speakout on this particular issue.
Mahonri | 7:47 a.m. March 13, 2008
About time more comes from the Leadership of Utah, the Fraud Capitol of the
Country.(Per the FBI)
Anonymous | 8:06 a.m. March 13, 2008
Just remember the Brigham Young quote that relates to riches. Paraphrasing it
he said that Members will get so rich and lead themselves to hell. Money is
good if used wisely, but if not it is the root to all evil. Members need to be
in the world but not of the world. I know so many millionaires that shop at
dollar stores and live way below their means. The whole point is anything we get
to easily we esteem to lightly. Thats why get rich quick schemes make
ungrateful animals out of us and we continue to feed off of greed. Wow! Just
dont use the religion to do your business, remember the people doing business in
the temple? Jesus wasnt so pleased with them and he threw over the tables.
Dont make sacred people and places unholy!
Idaho reader | 8:13 a.m. March 13, 2008
Mahonri..."About time"? What do you mean? The leadership of the
church has given the same sound advice for years and years. You can say
"About time" when we dummies actually start to heed their warning and
follow their counsel!
Roscoe | 8:16 a.m. March 13, 2008
Since this seems to be a recurring problems with members of the church, maybe
the church could design a ring to remind members that thrift is a virtue.
Let's call it the "SIR" or "Spend It Right" ring.
Freeman | 8:18 a.m. March 13, 2008
At the root of the problem of excessive gullibility by members of the Church is
the belief held by most that they can make decision s based on feelings. The
notion that information can be obtained or proper decisions made as result of
feelings is a sure fire recipe for disaster.
To mormon weakness and Mahonri | 8:23 a.m. March 13, 2008
Recognizing you two haven't gotten out much, if you think people here live
beyond their means, go to California or New Jersey. Further, the Church
leadership has been saying the same thing for years so Mahonri's
"about time" comment has no basis. Regarding the AG's comment, I
would be surprised if many Bishops are defrauding their flock. High Priest
Group Leaders yes, but when I was a bishop it was laid down in no uncertain
terms that there would be no investment dealings with members of the
congregation. most of the problems I've seen in my law practice have been
with "brokers" moving in from California and the East Coast to prey on
our people who are too trusting of other's motives and the schemes here are
nothing compared to what I encountered in California and Virginia while working
for the gov't there.
McKay | 8:24 a.m. March 13, 2008
When the deal goes bad or is late then it's suddenly called fraud? If you
built a spec house and it is not selling, that is not called fraud. The market
changed. If you did a risky deal then stop trying to blame other people and
call it fraud. There is a lot of fraud out there, but everyone who is losing
money didn't get scammed!!
Jed | 8:31 a.m. March 13, 2008
Dont' you see the hypocrisy in your comments? "About time the
leadership of the Church told us to beware of fraud!"
Did you have to wait around for the leadership of the Church to know you should beware of fraud?
This is EXACTLY the "I can't think for myself" mentality that makes the Mormon people so gullible in the first place! You trust only that which comes from Church leaders!
Duh!
Did you have to wait around for the leadership of the Church to know you should beware of fraud?
This is EXACTLY the "I can't think for myself" mentality that makes the Mormon people so gullible in the first place! You trust only that which comes from Church leaders!
Duh!
California LDS Transplant | 8:33 a.m. March 13, 2008
I appreciate the first presdiency making a statement on this subject. It is
embarrasing as a member of the Church to hear people losing their financial
lives becuase of fraud by people within our Church who should no better. Those
perpetrating fraud also leave a bad mark on those LDS members who are licensed
and ethical to offer financial or real estate services.
When we lived in California and my father was looking for a new job, we were told time and time again by LDS men who were in positions of authority in their professions that they preferred not to do business with other members of the Church. The several ones making the comments had all moved to California from Utah (several from Utah County) and had seen too many examples of LDS members taking advantage of one another when working together.
So, once and for all, let's weed out the MLM'ers, politely decline their invitations, as well as anyone offering you the chance to make lots of money without working.
Let's have the state of Utah prosecute these people to the fullest, and have their memberships taken away. Too many times these people find other victims.
When we lived in California and my father was looking for a new job, we were told time and time again by LDS men who were in positions of authority in their professions that they preferred not to do business with other members of the Church. The several ones making the comments had all moved to California from Utah (several from Utah County) and had seen too many examples of LDS members taking advantage of one another when working together.
So, once and for all, let's weed out the MLM'ers, politely decline their invitations, as well as anyone offering you the chance to make lots of money without working.
Let's have the state of Utah prosecute these people to the fullest, and have their memberships taken away. Too many times these people find other victims.
Brandon | 8:40 a.m. March 13, 2008
Part of the problem is the church's HUGE emphasis on having kids and having
the women stay home to raise them. Unless you're making over 75k
that's just not possible these days with housing/gas prices etc...Many
members are trying to make a quick buck so that their wives can stay home and
raise the kids, we don't live in the 50's and 60's anymore, the
church needs to come out and say that if the women has to work it's not the
end of the world.
Ernest T. Bass | 8:47 a.m. March 13, 2008
The culture breeds dupes.
AINO | 8:46 a.m. March 13, 2008
I agree with Robert. When it comes to working with other church members...AINO:
Always Inspire, Never Offend. So, we don't do business with each other.
Rita | 8:48 a.m. March 13, 2008
It is sad that so many mormons are victims of scams and so often the
perpetrators are church members and neighbors. What makes the mormons so
vulnerable is their willingness to accept things at face value without question.
Too much of this comes from church learning.
Formermormer | 8:50 a.m. March 13, 2008
While this problem is pandemic in Utah,church members have nothing like a
monopoly on it. The credit card mentality is espoused and promoted by every
manner of business,and even our federal government,so goes from top to bottom.
Perhaps its not too over simplified to say that we as an entire society need to
readjust our priorities and move back to a sound footing fiscally. As it
stands,this nation is a house of cards and the winds are rising. Are temporal
riches today worth the impoverishment that must inevitably follow the dedicated
pursuit of Mammon?
To Brandon | 8:51 a.m. March 13, 2008
Children are a blessing. Having said that; the emphasis is do what you can to
have the mother stay home. If you can't by that I mean that it is
necessary to have the mother in the work force then that is what you do. They
emphasise not to have the mother work outside the home to pay for the boat, the
fancy cars, the luxury vacations. In other words spend within your means. That
is just common sense.
Rathje | 8:56 a.m. March 13, 2008
This stuff doesn't happen because Mormons are inherently more gullible than
other Americans. It happens because they've got a ready-made social network
- the ward, the stake, etc. It's easier for scams to flourish among
networks of personal relations, than among people who don't know each
other. That simple.
What the...? | 9:05 a.m. March 13, 2008
What do suppose is deep in Mormon culture that makes them so susceptible to
fraud?
Amen to Monson | 9:02 a.m. March 13, 2008
I am also a CA transplant. I moved hear for the good things and am not one who
wants to change Utah. But, there are so many people that live hear that would
not touch a drop of coffee, miss a sunday meeting, and would tell you about each
time they go to the temple, and then, steal you blind. We live in an area of
Highland that has such large homes. Fancy cars, nice things placed on the roofs
of homes, motorized toys in the 5 car garage. My wife an ai have been ridiculed
because we don't have a gigantic house, drive cars that are paid for, and
drink a lot of Pepsi, and miss an occasional meeting. and oh yes, don't
tell people how many times we go to the temple. We are a stupid people, we are
a dishontest people, and uour leaders have been telling us this for years. Gon
are the days of thrift, hard work, prudence. Shame on those members of the
church who are living a lie.
JS | 9:10 a.m. March 13, 2008
To Brandon: My family of five lives very modestly on less than 60K. We drive
old but reliable cars, live in a 1600 sq ft house, live debt-free and cable-TV
free, raise a big garden and are VERY happy. I personally know of many families
living less than 40K (keeping Mom at home) and are doing well. I believe the
late Larry Burkett called it defensive spending - if you don't have a great
offense (income), keep a good defense on the field (low expenses).
Living under 75K is more than doable. If there is a will there is a way.
Living under 75K is more than doable. If there is a will there is a way.
M.M. | 9:15 a.m. March 13, 2008
Many years ago, I tried to warn people of a definite scam.
Being a financial advisor, I thought it was my duty.
Guess what happened?
I was sued for defamation, and to fight the charges would have taken more of my resources than I was willing to give at that time.
The perpertrator had VERY SUBSTANTIAL church connections, which he exploited to the limit. Amazingly, he is still at it!
People are still getting ripped off, SO BEWARE!
Being a financial advisor, I thought it was my duty.
Guess what happened?
I was sued for defamation, and to fight the charges would have taken more of my resources than I was willing to give at that time.
The perpertrator had VERY SUBSTANTIAL church connections, which he exploited to the limit. Amazingly, he is still at it!
People are still getting ripped off, SO BEWARE!
Utah=Fraud Capital | 9:15 a.m. March 13, 2008
Utah is the fraud capital of the world, and it's because all the scammers
know the LDS are suckers. They're far too trusting, and all these
scammeers need to do is say they have a strong testimony and act like
they're good Mormons. Once they do that, then others fall sucker to their
scam.
Sure, I'd love to be a millionaire, but I'm not dumb enough to think all I have to do is sign up 20 of my friends and family, and then make sure they all sign up 20 of their friends and family.
Then, there is the forex market - just give us a few thousand and you'll make 10x that in just a few days in the hugely volatile and risky business of the forex market. "Be you're own island"..yeah, right...if you believe that, your island will be at the homeless shelter because you lost everything trying to trade in a market where only the truly smart and truly financially sound should play.
Sure, I'd love to be a millionaire, but I'm not dumb enough to think all I have to do is sign up 20 of my friends and family, and then make sure they all sign up 20 of their friends and family.
Then, there is the forex market - just give us a few thousand and you'll make 10x that in just a few days in the hugely volatile and risky business of the forex market. "Be you're own island"..yeah, right...if you believe that, your island will be at the homeless shelter because you lost everything trying to trade in a market where only the truly smart and truly financially sound should play.
Oh Please | 9:15 a.m. March 13, 2008
"Utah-phrenia" is the problem. A combination of being semi-educated
and brainwashed by conservative talk radio. This makes Utahns totally vulnerable
to miraculous juice and herbs instead of real medicine. They stick their kids
into the local "Freedom Academy" where the history class consists of
Cleon Skousen's books. And everything from the "dream mine" to
your home teacher's latest revelation on how to get rich by morning, just
give me your life savings. Utah's problem is stupidity.
Not the church's fault | 9:22 a.m. March 13, 2008
To Brandon,
I am so appalled with you saying you have to make over 75k to have a parent stay home and that it is the LDS church's fault because of their emphasis on this. This is not true. You can stay home for a whole lot less and be fine. The problem isn't the church telling women to stay at home, it is the world telling people they need more. People think they need a large home, newer cars, flat screen tvs and video game consoles. If you truly look at need vs want you would see it is possible to stay at home and raise a family on way less than 75k. People tend to have problems when they can't clearly define a need from a want. They also have problems when they keep putting wants they think are needs on credit. It just builds up. None of this has to do with the church emphasis on women staying home. You can't blame the church because people listen to the world telling them what their needs really are.
I am so appalled with you saying you have to make over 75k to have a parent stay home and that it is the LDS church's fault because of their emphasis on this. This is not true. You can stay home for a whole lot less and be fine. The problem isn't the church telling women to stay at home, it is the world telling people they need more. People think they need a large home, newer cars, flat screen tvs and video game consoles. If you truly look at need vs want you would see it is possible to stay at home and raise a family on way less than 75k. People tend to have problems when they can't clearly define a need from a want. They also have problems when they keep putting wants they think are needs on credit. It just builds up. None of this has to do with the church emphasis on women staying home. You can't blame the church because people listen to the world telling them what their needs really are.
Same boat as JS | 9:25 a.m. March 13, 2008
My family of 6 lives in about the same circumstances.
It's amazing what you can do if you stay out of debt as much as possible.
It's amazing what you can do if you stay out of debt as much as possible.
Timj | 9:26 a.m. March 13, 2008
My wife and I want kids, don't already own a house, and want my wife to be
able to stay at home once we get kids.
With a good college education, that used to be no problem. Now, with how expensive houses and health insurance are, I need to go to graduate school just so we can afford to have kids and be a single-income household. And we we live a thrifty life, and are willing to continue like that (no need for boats, SUVs, a large home, etc.)
It's pretty sad, really.
With a good college education, that used to be no problem. Now, with how expensive houses and health insurance are, I need to go to graduate school just so we can afford to have kids and be a single-income household. And we we live a thrifty life, and are willing to continue like that (no need for boats, SUVs, a large home, etc.)
It's pretty sad, really.
Clueless Brandon | 9:26 a.m. March 13, 2008
My wife stays at home, I have 3 kids, I make only 40K, we have no debt except
our house payment. We do just fine, in fact i can sleep at night knowing i
don't owe anybody money. I'd write more, but I got a tee time to play
golf. Skiing was a blast yesterday too. Life is great. Rich people have stress.
I don't.
Amen! | 9:27 a.m. March 13, 2008
To you all saying "the church teaches this, the church teaches that; that
is why all Mormons are so dumb," give it a rest. Simply because some LDS
people are idiots, doesn't automatically qualify the rest of us as idiots.
The majority of us do not need to be TOLD to do something that is sensible or
to avoid doing something unwise.
Mormon Weakness- I personally have never known a single LDS person who TRULY believes that the possession of many material goods signifies that they are more "blessed". If it is so, these people do not know their doctrine! This is not the "blatant weakness" of an entire people as you claim. If it is true, it is the weakness of a few. They are obviously off track. Need we look to them for an example?
Brandon, I have not received one ounce of teaching that has said that under all circumstances, you must have children and stay home. If it is financially possible, do it. It's been proven to be the best situation for children, so why not? But if you simply cannot make ends meet, then the family is advised to do what it must do.
Mormon Weakness- I personally have never known a single LDS person who TRULY believes that the possession of many material goods signifies that they are more "blessed". If it is so, these people do not know their doctrine! This is not the "blatant weakness" of an entire people as you claim. If it is true, it is the weakness of a few. They are obviously off track. Need we look to them for an example?
Brandon, I have not received one ounce of teaching that has said that under all circumstances, you must have children and stay home. If it is financially possible, do it. It's been proven to be the best situation for children, so why not? But if you simply cannot make ends meet, then the family is advised to do what it must do.
WM | 9:29 a.m. March 13, 2008
I think the important thing to point out here is that ALL investments (and any
business other opportunity for that matter) should be researched fully before
putting any money in to it. Also, MLM's get a bad rap. I know plenty of
people, my spouse included, who make a very nice living through a reputable and
respectable MLM company. If you research and do your due diligence and find that
it's not for you, that's fine. But that doesn't mean it's
not for someone else.
this has always bothered me | 9:40 a.m. March 13, 2008
"...subject to Kings, Rulers, Presidents, Magistrates - and Snake Oil
Salesmen."
Just kidding of course, but the "being subject to" thing has always bothered me for obvious reasons.
Just kidding of course, but the "being subject to" thing has always bothered me for obvious reasons.
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Kudos to the first presidency though, for making this statement.