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LDS Church apologizes to Catholics
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Sad | 1:02 a.m. March 11, 2008
I served my mission in Colorado. It is sad that this took place. It is sad when
people go on missions who don't feel faith that strongly, because they then
treat other faiths with the respect they show their own. These missionaries
clearly did not understand faith very well, and what it means to respect people.
I hope the members of this community can accept our apology for a senseless act. I think in the MTC they should have a "Respecting Others 101" class. The problem is that when you are nineteen it is difficult ot represent a religion and a people, but you do!
I hope the members of this community can accept our apology for a senseless act. I think in the MTC they should have a "Respecting Others 101" class. The problem is that when you are nineteen it is difficult ot represent a religion and a people, but you do!
Darren B. | 1:18 a.m. March 11, 2008
Amazing that some Mormons defend these missionaries or make excuses.
These missionaries have shown your true colors. You do not care about truth. You only care about appearing right and destroying the faiths of others.
We are NOT impressed.
When a Catholic does something wrong, Mormons say the entire Catholic Church is in apostasy.
When Mormons do something wrong, including apostles and leaders, you stubbornly insist "the LDS Church is still true" but the INDIVIDUAL is blamed for making a mistake!
This is a horrible double standard.
And don't claim this is NOT your doctrine! It is in your scriptures. These things are being taught in Sunday School, and Priesthood meeting, and Gospel Doctrine class, and at LDS Seminaries, and even in Elder Holland's Conference talk where he made fun of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity!
This disrespect for the Catholic Church runs deep, goes all the way to the top, and has a long history in the LDS Church. You are disingenuous to say otherwise.
These missionaries have shown your true colors. You do not care about truth. You only care about appearing right and destroying the faiths of others.
We are NOT impressed.
When a Catholic does something wrong, Mormons say the entire Catholic Church is in apostasy.
When Mormons do something wrong, including apostles and leaders, you stubbornly insist "the LDS Church is still true" but the INDIVIDUAL is blamed for making a mistake!
This is a horrible double standard.
And don't claim this is NOT your doctrine! It is in your scriptures. These things are being taught in Sunday School, and Priesthood meeting, and Gospel Doctrine class, and at LDS Seminaries, and even in Elder Holland's Conference talk where he made fun of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity!
This disrespect for the Catholic Church runs deep, goes all the way to the top, and has a long history in the LDS Church. You are disingenuous to say otherwise.
Comments continue below
Craig | 1:36 a.m. March 11, 2008
What I don't like about all of this is the desire to ruin these young
men's lives.
I for one, have made many mistakes in my life...nothing horrible, nothing that could not be repaired and forgiven...and I am glad that I don't have to live with the shame forever or keep paying for them.
Let these guys say their apologies and make restitution if necessary and then MOVE ON.
As for the need of "Respecting Others 101". No, that is already done. Missionaries in the MTC are warned about how their actions can cause severe damage. This is not the first time a missionary has done a dumb thing that caused a lot of damage in a community. Actually, when I was in the MTC, we reviewed past stories that were much worse than this.
And if there was one thing I didn't like, was the high number of mission rules that were in place just because one dumb elder did a dumb thing.
I for one, have made many mistakes in my life...nothing horrible, nothing that could not be repaired and forgiven...and I am glad that I don't have to live with the shame forever or keep paying for them.
Let these guys say their apologies and make restitution if necessary and then MOVE ON.
As for the need of "Respecting Others 101". No, that is already done. Missionaries in the MTC are warned about how their actions can cause severe damage. This is not the first time a missionary has done a dumb thing that caused a lot of damage in a community. Actually, when I was in the MTC, we reviewed past stories that were much worse than this.
And if there was one thing I didn't like, was the high number of mission rules that were in place just because one dumb elder did a dumb thing.
Anonymous | 1:44 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B....
Are you going to cut and paste your same comment on ALL 4 bazillion news sites that I am sure will be rabidly foaming at the mouth to print this story? It's getting bo-ring.
Are you going to cut and paste your same comment on ALL 4 bazillion news sites that I am sure will be rabidly foaming at the mouth to print this story? It's getting bo-ring.
Sharon | 1:45 a.m. March 11, 2008
They got what they deserved....Its not the 1st time that a Colorado Missionary
has done wrong.....but they should do "the time for their crime" Ever
heard of consequences for our actions? Wrong is Wrong and Right is Right. They
knew what they were doing. I'm sick of reading how missionaries feel
its in their "right" to do whatever and thinking they can get away with it! Enough already!
A Ex Return Missionary that served his time
its in their "right" to do whatever and thinking they can get away with it! Enough already!
A Ex Return Missionary that served his time
Brett | 1:53 a.m. March 11, 2008
I must apologize for the actions which these missionaries committed. Though I
must honestly admit that I think they should be punished. However, as many
religions believe, the mormons, catholics, presbyterian, hindu, and several
others believe that individuals are not perfect. Even outside of christian
belief it is not a fair statement to say that an entire people are bad. I think
that anyone with a belief in a higher state of being, which enriches their lives
is a good religion. There are good people in every religion. But yes, people do
make mistakes, and as such they must suffer the consequences. It is not that the
LDS faith thinks or feels less towards other religions, that is simply not true.
In their attempts to convert others to their faith, they suggest that they
might build upon the faith that already exists. People are not perfect, and we
should not expect them to be, but that does not mean that expectations should
not exist. Please do not take offense to what an individual may do to offend
you. The LDS faith beliefs in a gospel of perfect faith. Not perfect people
possessing perfect faith.
Ex missionary | 1:58 a.m. March 11, 2008
I come as liberal and green as they come (at least for LDS) but I also have to
say in this situation though it was a stupid mistake that they shouldn't
have made it's not the end of the world. I served my mission in Asia and
there were several times where missionaries had to be reminded that we are not
20 year old frat boys but representatives of the Church and cannot play on the
statues and artifacts of generations past. I'm sure they were just having
a little fun that got out of hand and now they will pay for and regret it.
Everybody makes stupid mistakes, particularly 20 year old males. They should
pay restitution and move on, not set-off a witch hunt within and without the
church for all imperfect missionaries or members. Seriously, the Catholics,
Baptists, Lutherans and others think we are wrong; we think they are wrong. But
we live together and go forward. End of story.
Lori | 2:02 a.m. March 11, 2008
If these young men were not affiliated with a church and were just plain Bill,
Frank and Joe, the parish people would have their investigation, call the police
and press charges. The police would then investigate, find the culprits and
prosecute in a court of law. A sentence would be handed down and the men would
have to fulfill the terms of their sentence. End of game, end of story and end
of news coverage. However, the young men in question were LDS missionaries so I
am sure this will go on forever even though the LDS Church has disciplined these
men, turned their names over to the authorities, is making restitution,
apologizing and looking for other ways to go above and beyond the original
damage. People that hate the LDS church like Darrel B. will always be around to
persecute us. Grow thicker skins people. You do not need to justify your every
move to the world. You just need to make sure you are truly living your life so
that it reflects the Savior. We love the Lord and we love our fellow man. Soften
your hearts and always forgive. Live it 24/7 and your'e good to go.
Chris | 2:05 a.m. March 11, 2008
I am saddened that "missionaries" would desecrate a venerated symbol
of another faith. So much for "raising the bar" of worthiness for
service. I blame the parents for not raising them better, the bishops at home
for not conducting more thorough readiness interviews, and the mission leaders
for their lack of supervision. Those elders obviously had too much time on
their hands. As punishment, they should buy a new statue, go door-to-door and
apologize to every Catholic of that parish, and say 500 rounds of the Rosary.
I'm not joking, that's called penance - something elders preach and
Catholics practice. And that's from a returned missionary who served in a
Catholic country. I am ashamed of you guys and do NOT call you brothers. Those
good parish memers are more my brothers and sisters than you are.
We Mormons must condemn this act | 2:12 a.m. March 11, 2008
Fellow Mormons,
We cannot defend the missionaries who committed this act.
Let them be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the civil law, and let them be severely disciplined within the church. Excommunication would not be too harsh. Public shaming in the press is the least they deserve.
They used their sacred trust (1) to commit crimes and (2) to treat their fellow men cruelly. They did both of these things with deliberation and planning; it was no mere lapse in judgment.
Let us believing Mormons not now make a mistake of our own, by defending or excusing the wicked behavior of the these missionaries. Behavior that resembles theirs -- even in its subtler forms -- must be condemned, not encouraged. The culprits have besmerched the name of all the missionaries who perform their service with goodwill and love, and have threfore hampered them. Above all, they have treated viciously the very people they were sent forth to serve.
So please, fellow Mormons: please think twice before you decide to justify their crimes in print!
We cannot defend the missionaries who committed this act.
Let them be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the civil law, and let them be severely disciplined within the church. Excommunication would not be too harsh. Public shaming in the press is the least they deserve.
They used their sacred trust (1) to commit crimes and (2) to treat their fellow men cruelly. They did both of these things with deliberation and planning; it was no mere lapse in judgment.
Let us believing Mormons not now make a mistake of our own, by defending or excusing the wicked behavior of the these missionaries. Behavior that resembles theirs -- even in its subtler forms -- must be condemned, not encouraged. The culprits have besmerched the name of all the missionaries who perform their service with goodwill and love, and have threfore hampered them. Above all, they have treated viciously the very people they were sent forth to serve.
So please, fellow Mormons: please think twice before you decide to justify their crimes in print!
Lori | 2:37 a.m. March 11, 2008
If these foolish young men were just plain old Jim, Frank and Bill, the parish
would press charges. The police would investigate and arrests would be made. The
court would then have a trial and a sentence would be handed down. The men would
make restitution in whatever way the court saw fit. The media would yawn and
stop coverage as soon as it was reported and this would go the way of all other
small town news. However,the men were LDS missionaries and now we are going to
hear about it forever even though the LDS church has apologized, given the
men's names to authorities, is planning on making restitution and looking
for ways to improve relationships with the people and parish. People like Darren
B. will continue to take offense till the day they die, and the media will
always denigrate us. So what? Get thicker skins and rededicate the living of
your life as the Savior would have you live it. Especially the FORGIVE OTHERS
part. And remember you don't give offense, offense is taken, which means if
you're offended it's your choice to be.
M.G. | 2:46 a.m. March 11, 2008
I was raised in the church but have recently decided that the church is no
longer for me but let me put to rest the idea Darren B. tries to make. I have
deep respect for the LDS church and the Catholic church as well. I believe both
institutions teach love and respect for each other and for mankind. What these
missionaries did is unexcusable and deeply offensive. The actions of these three
young men should not and do not reflect the LDS as a whole just as if a any
other denomination should beheld accountable if an LDS church is vandalized. The
fact is three young men made an extremely poor decision and only have themselves
to blame.
Mark | 4:20 a.m. March 11, 2008
The stories I've read so far haven't explained how this chapel is
used. How could a statue that's been so severely broken, for example, go
undetected for two years? Not saying this in some twisted defensive mode, just
curious.
Linda | 4:34 a.m. March 11, 2008
Why are you making excuses for these missionaries, their all ADULTS 19 years old
not 19 months, c'mon they knew exactly what they were doing, making a
mockery of other religion and yet they continue to do so and looked disgustingly
proud of their action. Let the punishment fit the crime however harsh it may be,
they deserve whatever they get, a lesson must be taught and learned by these 3.
They left way too soon on their mission, they needed maybe 5 years or more to
grow up and learn RESPECT for others. I'm appalled for their action and now
the LDS Church steps in to mend the shattered pieces they left behind. I'm
LDS all my life but I value my religion and was taught growing up to respect
others no matter their race, color & religion, too bad these 3 skipped that
course. They brought shame on themselves and their families, what selfish people
only thinking of themselves and no one else. I feel bad and apologized to the
Catholic Church worldwide, don't judge us because of 3 despicable
ungreatful men. I valued and loved my religion just like anyone else.
LegalBeagle | 4:55 a.m. March 11, 2008
I will not make excuses for these elders if it is ultimately proven they
vandalized the shrine. However, at present we have photos of the men holding a
statue's head and other photos of disrespectful but not vanadalizing acts.
The statue's head was found just this week by the parish to be broken and
had been placed back on the statue at some point. It will take a full
investigation to determine whether the statue's head was already broken in
2006 or if the elders did it during their immature photoshoot. It is possible,
however unlikely, that they found the head already broken and, after taking
photos with it they evidently thought humorous, they replaced it on the statue,
where it went unnoticed until this week. Let's wait and see what the
Sheriff's investigation establishes, at least regarding whether any
criminal acts such as vanadalism occurred or whether this was purely mockery
without intent to damage. Clearly they were in the wrong, but let's not
put the cart before the horse when assessing criminal culpability. And to those
of you who served missions in predominantly Catholic countries, remember: He who
is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
Weird exceptions | 5:21 a.m. March 11, 2008
How many who read of this will be willing to recognize that the sad actions of
these three are a really weird exception to the norm, and not at all
representative of the church or of missionaries in general?
Was Judas a typical Christian?
Was Judas a typical Christian?
Darren B. Stupid | 5:35 a.m. March 11, 2008
Wow Darren B. Seems like you've been waiting for something this to happen
so you could go on your little temper tantrum.
I've never been in a Sunday School class, Seminary class, or any class in my Mormon upbringing that teaches about the Catholic Church.
You're trying to compare doctrinal errors to mistakes people make. It's not the molestation of children by a minority of Catholic priests that determines the truthfulness of your doctrines. The mistakes of any one person or group of people within a religion does not determine truth of their faith. We all do stupid things. We all have to chose our religious beliefs from doctrine we learn from the scriptures and leaders.
I'm glad these missionaries will be punished for their stupidity.
As an LDS member I also apologize for their actions and know that one day (if they haven't already) they will grow up and realize the foolishnes and disrespect of their actions.
I think that the LDS/Catholic relationship in Salt Lake is very good. We all could learn from our leader's example here, that although we have differing beliefs we can be the best of friends.
I've never been in a Sunday School class, Seminary class, or any class in my Mormon upbringing that teaches about the Catholic Church.
You're trying to compare doctrinal errors to mistakes people make. It's not the molestation of children by a minority of Catholic priests that determines the truthfulness of your doctrines. The mistakes of any one person or group of people within a religion does not determine truth of their faith. We all do stupid things. We all have to chose our religious beliefs from doctrine we learn from the scriptures and leaders.
I'm glad these missionaries will be punished for their stupidity.
As an LDS member I also apologize for their actions and know that one day (if they haven't already) they will grow up and realize the foolishnes and disrespect of their actions.
I think that the LDS/Catholic relationship in Salt Lake is very good. We all could learn from our leader's example here, that although we have differing beliefs we can be the best of friends.
Paul G | 5:34 a.m. March 11, 2008
To Darren B - your correct and incorrect points are so horribly intertwined it
is hard to know where to start. These missionaries showed their individual
immaturity, not the church's true colors. We DO value truth, and we do NOT
aim to destroy anyone's faith. You speak as if you know well what we
teach, yet you either never really listened or you are misrepresenting what
you've heard.
We teach that the apostasy spoken of in the Bible was a complete apostasy, not the partial apostasy that other faiths teach (and we don't tie this to one Catholic's misdeeds). We teach that there is good in ALL faiths and churches, but that something is missing in each of them. We also teach that each person is responsible for his own actions.
What is disingenuous is taking the actions (however reprehensible) of a few people and painting an entire global organization with the same brush. I've known many Catholics - some I respect, some I don't. But I base that on their individual actions, not their religion.
By the way, I wonder how non-Catholic Christians feel about you claiming the Trinity doctrine as solely Catholic?
We teach that the apostasy spoken of in the Bible was a complete apostasy, not the partial apostasy that other faiths teach (and we don't tie this to one Catholic's misdeeds). We teach that there is good in ALL faiths and churches, but that something is missing in each of them. We also teach that each person is responsible for his own actions.
What is disingenuous is taking the actions (however reprehensible) of a few people and painting an entire global organization with the same brush. I've known many Catholics - some I respect, some I don't. But I base that on their individual actions, not their religion.
By the way, I wonder how non-Catholic Christians feel about you claiming the Trinity doctrine as solely Catholic?
Re: Darren B. | 5:39 a.m. March 11, 2008
>>"These missionaries have shown your true colors. You do not care
about truth. You only care about appearing right and destroying the faiths of
others."
You are painting with a very broad brush.
>>"We are NOT impressed."
Just who is the "we," YOU are authorized to speak for?
>>"When a Catholic does something wrong, Mormons say the entire Catholic Church is in apostasy."
Simply not true.
>>"When Mormons do something wrong, including apostles and leaders, you stubbornly insist "the LDS Church is still true" but the INDIVIDUAL is blamed for making a mistake!"
Please. A believing Catholic or Evangelical would say the same thing. Priests who are pedophiles, for instance, do not represent the whole Catholic Church. The Reverend Ted Haggard does not represent all Evangelicals.
>>"And don't claim this is NOT your doctrine!"
Yes, we do claim that our Church is true. This is a claim you can expect us not to back away from.
>>"This disrespect for the Catholic Church runs deep, goes all the way to the top, and has a long history in the LDS Church. You are disingenuous to say otherwise"
Not true. Again you are painting with way to broad a brush.
You are painting with a very broad brush.
>>"We are NOT impressed."
Just who is the "we," YOU are authorized to speak for?
>>"When a Catholic does something wrong, Mormons say the entire Catholic Church is in apostasy."
Simply not true.
>>"When Mormons do something wrong, including apostles and leaders, you stubbornly insist "the LDS Church is still true" but the INDIVIDUAL is blamed for making a mistake!"
Please. A believing Catholic or Evangelical would say the same thing. Priests who are pedophiles, for instance, do not represent the whole Catholic Church. The Reverend Ted Haggard does not represent all Evangelicals.
>>"And don't claim this is NOT your doctrine!"
Yes, we do claim that our Church is true. This is a claim you can expect us not to back away from.
>>"This disrespect for the Catholic Church runs deep, goes all the way to the top, and has a long history in the LDS Church. You are disingenuous to say otherwise"
Not true. Again you are painting with way to broad a brush.
russ | 5:42 a.m. March 11, 2008
I can't help but note that the apology is for vandalism to an object. That
is not the point. The vandalism occured because of a deeper disrepect for the
Catholic religion and their practices. These boys did not learn this overnight.
It has been drummed into their heads since day one.
A long time ago I learned from innumerable Mormons that Catholicism was lower than dirt. Day after day it was said to me. And I wasn't even a Catholic.
The disrespect shown is in the genes of the Mormon Church. Expect more incidents. It has to happen due to the wide spread teaching that Catholicism is bad....... bad......... bad.
A long time ago I learned from innumerable Mormons that Catholicism was lower than dirt. Day after day it was said to me. And I wasn't even a Catholic.
The disrespect shown is in the genes of the Mormon Church. Expect more incidents. It has to happen due to the wide spread teaching that Catholicism is bad....... bad......... bad.
anEldersMom | 5:56 a.m. March 11, 2008
I am glad that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is issuing an
apology for the irresponsable acts of these 3-4 Elders. I hope these Elders are
so embarrassed with what they have done. Unfortunately I have heard stories
like this happening in other parts of the world. I hope future Elders will take
note of this, and realize that just because you don't get caught right
then, you eventually will.
The best thing that could happen out of this, is these now "older, but not so wiser" men can go to this parish, and offer to mend things (apologise directly & offer service), and remember this: When you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God.
The best thing that could happen out of this, is these now "older, but not so wiser" men can go to this parish, and offer to mend things (apologise directly & offer service), and remember this: When you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God.
Just Ed | 5:57 a.m. March 11, 2008
Speaking as a Catholic, I appreciate the apology offered by the LDS Church.
Once the missionaries apologize in person to the people of the parish and make
full restitution, I urge the parishioners to FORGIVE them.
This whole incident was very unfortunate, but some good can come out of it. Confession, repentence, restitution, forgiveness: Sounds to me like the Christian formula for making right the inevitable mistakes we all make in this world. Let's take the opportunity to demonstrate it.
This whole incident was very unfortunate, but some good can come out of it. Confession, repentence, restitution, forgiveness: Sounds to me like the Christian formula for making right the inevitable mistakes we all make in this world. Let's take the opportunity to demonstrate it.
arc | 5:58 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B,
You either don't understand, or are twisting words on purpose. Whether there was an great general apostacy or not, is not the point of this story.
The point is the Church has taught missionaries for decades not to show disrespect for others faiths. Parents have taught their children. Most have learned this lesson.
I have been in many different churches of many different faiths, in Utah and throughout the world. I would never do what these missionaries did. I was appalled.
We agree on many doctrines, and disagree with many others. Both Churches claim to be Christ's Church. That has not, and will not stop us from being working together for good. Elder Holland did not and would not make fun of anyone else's beliefs. I can have respect for someones else's beliefs and not believe they are correct.
You either don't understand, or are twisting words on purpose. Whether there was an great general apostacy or not, is not the point of this story.
The point is the Church has taught missionaries for decades not to show disrespect for others faiths. Parents have taught their children. Most have learned this lesson.
I have been in many different churches of many different faiths, in Utah and throughout the world. I would never do what these missionaries did. I was appalled.
We agree on many doctrines, and disagree with many others. Both Churches claim to be Christ's Church. That has not, and will not stop us from being working together for good. Elder Holland did not and would not make fun of anyone else's beliefs. I can have respect for someones else's beliefs and not believe they are correct.
Carole Knowles | 5:59 a.m. March 11, 2008
Respect is something a child grows up with or without. It is taught and
learned. Unlike common sense. Some people lack common sense and grow up
without being taught respect, add immaturity to the mix, and you end up with a
mess like this. I am a former catholic, my whole family is catholic, and I sure
hope they don't get a hold of this. I remember a general authority saying
that it's a wonder the missionaries have not destroyed the church yet.
Well...
Ron in OC | 6:02 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B. Yup, I guess you are right. The actions of these missionaries show
my true colors. Just curious as to what your true colors are. And since you
are such an expert, please share some of your profound wisdom on the true colors
of all the other religions when some of their individual members screw up.
A STRONGLY WORDED STATEMENT! | 6:09 a.m. March 11, 2008
WOW!
jackie | 6:10 a.m. March 11, 2008
This was a foolish mistake made by these young men and they should apologize.
But, how do any of us know if they were the ones who broke the head off the
statue. They most certainly should not have disrespected it in any way and of
that they are guilty and should make ammends. Also, I am not certain that the
pictures were posted specifically as a sign of disrespect. In this digital
camera/computer age as well as picture sharing on all the sites like face book
and my space, pictures get picked up and moved around by anyone who wants them
and before you know it they are everywhere. Could be that all their mission
pictures were posted but these ones made the rounds. Missionaries are still
young people and even though they are trained and taught to be respectful some
still misbehave as is the case with young people in general. I know in my
husbands mission in Thailand several years before he served there, some
missionaries were arrested for taking a picture of themselves seated on a
buhda(i hope that is the correct spelling) We all do stupid things sometimes.
Anonymous | 6:07 a.m. March 11, 2008
As a person quite familiar with the situation and having a RM as stepson (he
filled me in on a lot of feelings towards the Catholic Church he said he learned
in Provo) -
I am not suprised something like this would happen.
I am not suprised something like this would happen.
jackie part two | 6:14 a.m. March 11, 2008
We all do stupid things sometimes and if you have not, then let me find some
stones for you to throw. I think a sincere apology and a fine relative to the
disrespect shown should be sufficient. Darren, you are entitled to your opinion,
but in my sincere opinion, you are overreacting. I am sorry, but this was
simply a foolish act by some young people who should have known better, they are
taught to be respectful and should be a better example but everyone make
mistakes. It does not paint a whole religion, anymore that mistakes made by
people of your faith. In your post Darren, you are guilty of the same behavior
you are accusing the LDS church of. Don't cast stones!
Once a Catholic | 6:20 a.m. March 11, 2008
I was born & raised Catholic, before becoming a Latter-day Saint. Most
Catholics take their faith just as seriously as we do. Those of latin/Spanish
descent are deeply devout and religious people, who grasp the truth of the
Gospel when they hear it from our missionaries. Our
missionaries� actions were, without question, thoughtless,
immature, insensitive, and destructive depicting lack of testimony. Had the
photos NOT been posted for the world to see, the adversary's seeds would
not have grown -- a lesson to all of us to be ever diligent against the subtle
workings of the adversary -- even when wielding the swords of words posted on
this medium! If "Darren B." chooses to cut and paste worded swords to
the world, whose work is HE furthering? I commend Church leaders for their
necessary steps. I pray for these missionaries & hope this life lesson
molds them into better Latter-day Saints. It takes more to admit our mistakes,
repent, forsake our sins, and GROW from them than to ignore them, which
eventually leads to apostasy and an erosion of the soul. Hopefully, they are
learning & WE need to be forgiving -- in our thoughts, prayers, actions,
words, and deeds.
Jphn | 6:24 a.m. March 11, 2008
The comments by Darren are as abhorent as the actions of the missionaries. They
both are disrespectful of a people and a faith. If he thinks the missionaries
should apologize, which they should, and if he thinks they should make
restitution, which they should, then to do be hypocritical himself he should do
the same for his words
Re:Darren | 6:24 a.m. March 11, 2008
Calm down Darren and worry about yourself because you don't know what
you're talking about.
Anonymous | 6:26 a.m. March 11, 2008
We need to take this for what it is. This was not one dumb Elder but, it
appears to have been, three dumb Elders. But dumb alone does not adequately
describe their actions. We need to throw in terms such as disrespectful, cruel
and hateful. The very things that we sometimes as a church pride ourselves in
reminding the world we were victims of. This is very difficult for me to accept
as a mere case of "Boys will be Boys". To a world that is just now
starting to have the opportunity to tune in and learn what we really stand for,
these three managed to take their unfeeling and uncaring actions to such heights
as nationwide coverage from Fox News.
Thank goodness I have the opportunity to work with many other LDS missionaries on a daily basis. I have the opportunity to know the incredible love and devotion that 99% of these young men and women have to our faith. But a single action such as this wipes the good works of thousands of others and hurts a congregation of people that did not deserve such a violation of their place of worship. They deserve justice.
Thank goodness I have the opportunity to work with many other LDS missionaries on a daily basis. I have the opportunity to know the incredible love and devotion that 99% of these young men and women have to our faith. But a single action such as this wipes the good works of thousands of others and hurts a congregation of people that did not deserve such a violation of their place of worship. They deserve justice.
Pete | 6:21 a.m. March 11, 2008
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do..."
All Catholics are not Saints, and all Mormon Missionaries are not Saints. Will faith prevail and the teachings of Jesus come forth? You know like forgiveness and love. This is a civil matter, let the sheriff handle it. Apologies given, will they be accepted?
All Catholics are not Saints, and all Mormon Missionaries are not Saints. Will faith prevail and the teachings of Jesus come forth? You know like forgiveness and love. This is a civil matter, let the sheriff handle it. Apologies given, will they be accepted?
so sad.. | 6:23 a.m. March 11, 2008
This is a sad story. I am glad the Church is taking action and has reported it
too authorities and that those 3 will be held responsible. And to you Darren B.
No, this doesn't show the true colors of the LDS Church and it's
members. Those 3 disprectful missionaries acted on their own accord not for the
Church. And if it was the Church's true colors the Church would not have
turned the names over to the authorities nor would they have had those
missionaires disciplined. Think first before you write somthing like that. The
Church didn't make excuses for those boys, or didn't you read
correctly.
Chad | 6:24 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B. please provide us with a reference of any mormons defending these
missionaries. I would truly like to read about that or in some other way
validate your claims.
I find it interesting that an entire people are vilified for the actions of a few.
Look at the shootings that are happening in America's schools. It must mean that every American is a child-hating thug carrying weapons to be ready at a moments notice to shoot anyone they feel like on sight. Those horrible Americans.
Seriouosly, constantly touting steretypes gets us nowhere and just drives a wedge between groups within our society, be it racial, religious, socio-economic or geographical in nature, this kind of hatred does no good.
I find it interesting that an entire people are vilified for the actions of a few.
Look at the shootings that are happening in America's schools. It must mean that every American is a child-hating thug carrying weapons to be ready at a moments notice to shoot anyone they feel like on sight. Those horrible Americans.
Seriouosly, constantly touting steretypes gets us nowhere and just drives a wedge between groups within our society, be it racial, religious, socio-economic or geographical in nature, this kind of hatred does no good.
Joe | 6:25 a.m. March 11, 2008
Mocking religions other than one's own is wrong. It is one thing to have
doctrinal differences, but making fun of another's religion is contrary to
God's will.
Catholics who live their religion are far better people than those who live no religion (and much better than Mormons who do not understand or live their religion). One need look no further than John Stockton as a wonderful example of a man trying to faithfully live his religion, and one I would call brother anytime.
Sure, I feel sorry for the consequences that must befall these former elders for their mindless acts. But I feel far worse for the damage done to the reputation of the Church that they were supposed to be representing. Many of us are guilty of thoughtless or stupid or thoughtless comments or acts; I often wish my brain was as fast as my tongue.
Perhaps there are times that the Elders would be better served to not concentrate so much on "Choose the Right" but instead on "What Would Jesus Do."
Darrin B., please accept my apologies for those times the Catholic Church/doctrine has been singled out. Many churches disagree with our belief regarding the trinity.
Catholics who live their religion are far better people than those who live no religion (and much better than Mormons who do not understand or live their religion). One need look no further than John Stockton as a wonderful example of a man trying to faithfully live his religion, and one I would call brother anytime.
Sure, I feel sorry for the consequences that must befall these former elders for their mindless acts. But I feel far worse for the damage done to the reputation of the Church that they were supposed to be representing. Many of us are guilty of thoughtless or stupid or thoughtless comments or acts; I often wish my brain was as fast as my tongue.
Perhaps there are times that the Elders would be better served to not concentrate so much on "Choose the Right" but instead on "What Would Jesus Do."
Darrin B., please accept my apologies for those times the Catholic Church/doctrine has been singled out. Many churches disagree with our belief regarding the trinity.
ron | 6:36 a.m. March 11, 2008
to darren b. These young men will get their swift and just "rewards".
With your attitude, yours will very probably come much later.
Kristen A. | 6:42 a.m. March 11, 2008
As a returned missionary, I also find their behavior inexcusable, and I think
they deserve consequences for their actions. It is not in line at all with the
work we were doing as missionaries; that is truly inappropriate. I am really
glad that this came to the attention of Church authorities and that both an
apology was issued and restitution can be made. I am sad that there will
probably be a rift in the community there for a while because of their actions,
but I hope that there can eventually be some healing.
RM | 6:44 a.m. March 11, 2008
Many member of the LDS faith are in denial with their posting of comments of
this subject.
No one in this life are perfect. We all make mistakes and must go through the pain of repentance. Yes our mistake will follow us threw the rest of our lives. But the important thing is we learn from these mistakes. The young men that did this need to be punished within the laws of the land.
I have hope and pray for the missionaries that will be negtively effected by the actions of these 3 young men.
I hope the members of the Catholic church will forgive these young men.
I pray that these young men will be true remorsefull for what damage they have done. To Catholic church and to the LDS church.
No one in this life are perfect. We all make mistakes and must go through the pain of repentance. Yes our mistake will follow us threw the rest of our lives. But the important thing is we learn from these mistakes. The young men that did this need to be punished within the laws of the land.
I have hope and pray for the missionaries that will be negtively effected by the actions of these 3 young men.
I hope the members of the Catholic church will forgive these young men.
I pray that these young men will be true remorsefull for what damage they have done. To Catholic church and to the LDS church.
Fr. Jacobus Timore | 6:39 a.m. March 11, 2008
The true offense is that thousands of young Mormon men and women parade around
the world to proclaim a gospel they do not understand. How could they? The
lies about their own Mormon history flood their spirits with a haughty attitude
which is much more offensive than a couple of young criminals acting out in a
public way.
LDS reality check | 6:39 a.m. March 11, 2008
All of the comments have been very enlightening and I would like to offer this
challenge for all to suppress and keep your opinions to yourselves as it only
adds fuel to the fire which is what the adversary would want.
It would be wise for all LDS members to review the 13 Articles of Faith, especially #11:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
Then ask yourself, "WWJD?"
It would be wise for all LDS members to review the 13 Articles of Faith, especially #11:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
Then ask yourself, "WWJD?"
The root of the problem | 6:39 a.m. March 11, 2008
Sure, missionaries, and others, need to be taught not to destroy property. But
the root of the problem is that we all need to respect others and their beliefs.
If everyone really respected the faith of others, we wouldn't have to
worry about destroying property or making light of things others consider
sacred.
As a returned missionary myself, although now I'm decades older and more mature, I'm embarassed by some of the things I thought and said on my mission. Gratefully, I didn't destroy property but I did make light of things I wouldn't think of doing now.
As a returned missionary myself, although now I'm decades older and more mature, I'm embarassed by some of the things I thought and said on my mission. Gratefully, I didn't destroy property but I did make light of things I wouldn't think of doing now.
top hero | 6:48 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren, that is an interesting opinion. However, it is nice to know that there
are rational people who recognize such extremism of opinion towards an entire
group as nonsensical. If you have come across such Mormons, then fine I am sure
they have shown their true colors. However, they cannot simply be heaped upon
all. As for the their actions, I too feel remorse and do not excuse them but
this does not preclude me from also feeling remorse for them.
ediddy | 6:56 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B,
You are so wrong and bitter. You espouse, with your vehement rhetoric, the very attitude you seek to condemn in others. Such "doctrine" is not taught in classes, seminary and the like. Your familiarity with the vernacular suggests that you are possibly former LDS member with an ax to grind. Elder Holland made no fun of Catholic doctrine, but did clearly distinguish LDS belief from others and why it is accurate by LDS understanding. In this dispicable act of these missionaries, an obvious door has been opened for vitriol to spewed at the Mormons. Those who quickly pour through that door will only show the true colors of their own ignorance and bias as well.
You are so wrong and bitter. You espouse, with your vehement rhetoric, the very attitude you seek to condemn in others. Such "doctrine" is not taught in classes, seminary and the like. Your familiarity with the vernacular suggests that you are possibly former LDS member with an ax to grind. Elder Holland made no fun of Catholic doctrine, but did clearly distinguish LDS belief from others and why it is accurate by LDS understanding. In this dispicable act of these missionaries, an obvious door has been opened for vitriol to spewed at the Mormons. Those who quickly pour through that door will only show the true colors of their own ignorance and bias as well.
barry | 7:09 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B... You have a lot of hate Please tell me where open bias against any
church has been uttered against Catholics or Protestants?? Your imagination has
the better of you.
Diamondladi | 7:03 a.m. March 11, 2008
Darren B. I just re-read Elder Hollands talk. You must be incredibly sensitive
to say that he made fun of the doctrine of the trinity. He explained quite
scholorly I might add, where the doctrine arose from. One of the descriptions of
God based on this doctrine says he is "incomprehensible". He then said
that he can understand why they say that because this doctrine is
incomprehensible to him. He also quoted the statement of a 4 century Monk who
had trouble with it too.
As a General Authority of our church it is his place to explain doctrine, to explain the differences and similarities of the doctrines of our church to other churches. The point of his talk was to show that despite critics statements that we aren't Christian because of a lack of belief in the Trinity- we are in deed Christian.
What these young men did was wrong, it should be taken seriously (it is based on this article), but it in no way reflects the attitude of the Church. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few more mission rules added because of it.
As a General Authority of our church it is his place to explain doctrine, to explain the differences and similarities of the doctrines of our church to other churches. The point of his talk was to show that despite critics statements that we aren't Christian because of a lack of belief in the Trinity- we are in deed Christian.
What these young men did was wrong, it should be taken seriously (it is based on this article), but it in no way reflects the attitude of the Church. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few more mission rules added because of it.
Anonymous | 7:06 a.m. March 11, 2008
A peculiar people do peculiar things.
Bob | 7:13 a.m. March 11, 2008
I honestly expected to read 29 or 30 posts expressing sadness and remorse and
apologizing to the Catholic Church for the sickening behavior of some idiotic
missionaries. Instead, I see one "kick 'em when they're
down," post--two or three truly sincere attempts at reaching out and asking
forgiveness--and a whole bunch of "well, yeah--but what about"---and
quite a few, "let's move on," with some, "quit picking on
us," thrown in for good measure. Some of you sound a bit like the Catholic
leaders defending priest abuse.
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1. do what they did
2. put it out out the world wide web for all to see
The act of what they did strikes a deep chord with those of other faiths and wreaks of hypocrosy.
Due to the public component of this story there must be swift and harsh punishment for those involved from a church PR standpoint.
With that said, I really feel sorry for the Elders involved, not so much the real sensless one who put it on the web (no remorse, no maturation since 2006, no reverence for the calling he once held).
The punishment, public embarrassment and reprocussions of their actions will far outwiegh thier acts. I really feel sorry for them, especially if no harm was meant.
It's amazing how one moment of misjudgement can undo all the positive impact these men have ever made in the church. Not only undo but be far more negative than positive. I'm sure this was not thier intention. I think that is the definition of immaturity and stupidity