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Parish angered by 3 LDS missionaries

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shadow | 6:58 p.m. March 10, 2008

There is a strong possibility that as the Mormon Church has grown and accelerated its growth it did not keep up with the quality control system regarding its RMs. Has the rush to growth lowered the standards that once applied, and that the less prepared kids are more accepted into the program than say 20-30 years ago. Possible?

The military had the same problem when it grew suddenly during the Vietnam War. The earlier troops were more motivated, etc. The draftees were not. It was easy to see the difference between the soldiers.

Is that true for the young boys and girls sent out? If I was/were a Mormon, I would wonder.

As to the 3 people in question. Civil and criminal will run their courses. As to what the Mormon Church does, that is their business.

The Shadow Knows.

(Frankly, if the MC was smart they would spend some of that zillions of dollars stashed away and do something dramatic in that area to help everyone, and then specifically the Catholics who definitely got banged!)

Anon | 6:57 p.m. March 10, 2008

Love the headline here: "Parish angered by 3 LDS missionaries." How mediocre is that? How about the truth for once-- "3 LDS missionaries charged with crimes"?

Just Ed | 7:08 p.m. March 10, 2008

Adding to my previous post: assuming that the missionaries offer their hearfelt and sincere apologies in person to the parish, and make full restitution, the parish, along with granting forgiveness, should drop any criminal charges and/or legal actions. (This is in keeping with the spirit of 1 Cor. 6:1-8.)

To Father Gary Killen: I would hate for our entire Catholic Church to be judged by the foolish actions of a few individual Catholics. The LDS church deserves the same consideration. I hope you will reconsider what you wrote in your post.

Comments continue below

Representatives | 7:20 p.m. March 10, 2008

If missionaries can't get it that they are representatives - they have no business being on a mission. Just visited Thailand. The missionary work there still suffers from Elders horsing around at a Buddist temple - years ago.

I was caught horsing around (albeit minor) by my branch president in the MTC. He asked me if I was serious about the Lord's work and was ready to represent him. Woke me up. Glad he was brave enough to be kind but direct with me.

Oportunity knocks? | 7:29 p.m. March 10, 2008

This proves people in all religions resort to criminal behavior. It is never right to condemn a grow by the actions of a few.

I grew up in Utah. The most accepting part of my family were Catholics. The LDS side were too judgmental. They always tried to force their religion on you.

Having distanced myself from Mormonism, I see a problem here. A opportunity for Mormons to show good will to people of another religion as been opened to you. Why not embrace this chance to reach out to these people through a act of kindness?

Ed | 7:28 p.m. March 10, 2008

These young men defiled a place of worship by their actions. Please don't call them "boys". They are of legal age, eligible to vote and to serve in our nation's armed forces. They went into another faith's house of worship and made a mockery of it. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is THE true church, why spend all this time and effort proclaiming to the world that it is? Why preach it to the mountain tops that it is THE true church? Why not just LIVE the teachings of Jesus Christ? I have many LDS friends who do....just that. No rubbing my nose in it, they live the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The LDS Church should do a major overhaul of what their young men are being taught at the MTC and make certain that what they are "offering" is a gift. To love their fellow man regardless of if they join the LDS Church or not, THAT should be their primary function.

it is always wrong | 7:45 p.m. March 10, 2008

It is always wrong to mock that which is sacred to another, regardless of your own belief on the matter. Regardless of the varying religions involved, it's the right attitude of civility and decency in any cultural setting.

porky | 7:53 p.m. March 10, 2008

bad way for these alleged (yup, we're in a PC world now!) boys/men to get their 15 mintues of fame.

Pretty lame what they did. | 7:59 p.m. March 10, 2008

If they did the vandalism they should pay the penalty. The immature pictures were just bad taste that will have a negative effect. They should face the consequences because they were old enough to know what they were committing to be for 2 years. I also want to add that the bottles thrown at me, the swearing, the times I was told I was of the devil, etc. came from people of many different religions. I had multiple ministers treat me so bad that I'm glad Christ suffered for their sins because what they did wasn't Christian. Let's not blow this out of proportion. Far worse things happen to missionaries everyday. These young men need to apologize and make restitution as best they can.

Chris | 8:07 p.m. March 10, 2008

Any member of a church where all members are perfect may cast the first stone at our church. These were just bad eggs.

Here's my stone | 9:00 p.m. March 10, 2008

Chris,

You and yours have been casting stones at us for many, many years. As an example... you should look at the many other posts on Photobucket from mormons... denigrating not only the Catholics, but the other Christian faiths, as well.

You have dumped "three" stones at our feet. You should not be at all surprised that we have picked them up, and thrown them back at you.

Judge Grad | 9:02 p.m. March 10, 2008

I have nothing but utmost respect for our friends, the the Latter-day Saints. This was an isolated incident. I have never really experienced any disrespectful actions from LDS folks growing up in SLC and attending Judge. I know the LDS Church helped out our services causes at Judge at the drop of a hat. It's an isolated incident and in no way should reflect the views of the LDS Church as a whole.

Answer not censored | 9:16 p.m. March 10, 2008

Chris,
You (your represtetives) have already cast the first stone.

Boys To Men | 10:36 p.m. March 10, 2008

From reading of some posters, they do want to make light of this behavior as nothing more than a nuisance and should not be made a big deal. They even interpret it as a prank by 3 foolish boys.

However, the LDS church never makes any statements that they send tens of thousands of boys to serve the Lord, but they refer them as young men. The semantics changes only so as to differentiate the good from the bad, that is, they are boys when they are bad, but they are young men when they are good.

Well, the law states that their ages are more then plenty to regard them as full adults, not as boys anymore, and will not be treated as any other then grown men.

Their ages also qualifies them to be charged with statutory rape should they have even consentual sex with a minor.

So, lets just take the heads out of the sands and regards these people to be no more, and no less then the men that have done bad, instead of the boys that have done bad, and therefore, their actions have the repercussions as men.

Roger | 10:51 p.m. March 10, 2008

The church needs to re-think about who they are sending out in the world. Nineteen (teenager) is too young, they should wait until they are of leagal age, twenty-one. May be it would be best if they did military service first.

To Roger | 11:25 p.m. March 10, 2008

Or maybe a little tolerance should be taught at home. I know of families who believe it's ok to defile the Catholic religion because of their belief that Catholics are an abomination and that they have no right to believe that they are doing Gods work. It's no different than families that preach hatred towards those of a different race. These are thing learned at home.

Anonymous | 11:32 p.m. March 10, 2008

While I condemn the actions of these young men, I live in the San Luis Valley and knew one of the missionaries quite well. He was a very good missionary, but he, along with the other missionaires, made a very poor choice. I know the area of San Luis very well, and missionaries in this area, especially those of Anglo decent, are not well-received. I believe it is difficult for young men to be continually harassed, and not to feel some time of conflict with the predeminant religion of the area. I do believe that mocking the religion is very insensitive, but I also know they are young 19 year olds who have experienced much harassment. In addition, there is no evidence that these young men committed any type of vandalism. It has been my understanding that the statue was delivered to San Luis with a severed head. The head fit back on the shrine, and most did not even know it was severed. Nonetheless, if these boys did break the shrine, I hope they admit to their wrond-doing and face the consequences. However, remember that their guilt has been established in the media, and not yet by the evidence.

Anonymous | 11:36 p.m. March 10, 2008

No, these things are being taught in Sunday School, and Priesthood meeting, and Gospel Doctrine class, and at LDS Seminaries, and even in Elder Holland's Conference talk where he made fun of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity!

This disrespect for the Catholic Church runs deep, goes all the way to the top, and has a long history in the LDS Church.

anonymous | 11:36 p.m. March 10, 2008

Aren't we being a little harsh? I am the first to criticize Mormons but remember that people are people and unless you are God, I think we have all done stupid things in our life that we live to regret. I know I have. I just know that any time you put together a few young men they are bound to get into trouble at some point. The difference here is that they caught and what they did was especially disrespectful. I know many of you holier than thou out there won't agree, but it's reality. The question is whether these kids/adults have learned their lesson. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they did.

Fred Johnson | 11:57 p.m. March 10, 2008

What a shame, when I was a young man I always wanted to go on a mission and I went into the woods to pray. My mission was a wonderful experience serving the people of South Africa. We never did anything like this. This is wrong. These boys have tarnished the office of Missionary. They need to be excommunicated.

Wow Fred | 12:19 a.m. March 11, 2008

Excommunication in my opinion is a very drastic thing to do to these young men. I firmly believe that what they did was criminal and need to be punished but excommunication is a little too much. I'm a Utah Catholic and am troubled by what has happened but this isn't a time for the church to turn on these men, it's a time to embrace them and show them the true meaning of Gods words of love and acceptance.

Simple Issue | 12:34 a.m. March 11, 2008

There are many comments above that attempt to eloquently address this issue. I won't be so eloquent.

Three stupid people, who happen to be missionaries, demonstrated their stupidity. Charge them according to the law and hold them accountable.

Conversely, any who judge all church members as similarly stupid based on the behavior of these three gene-pool bottom-dwellers, are themselves stupid. Ignore them.

This one isn't brain surgery.

Anonymous | 1:07 a.m. March 11, 2008

If what they did is a felony, they must be excommunicated. That is the policy.

Sad | 1:14 a.m. March 11, 2008

The sad thing is, they probably didn't realize the implications of their actions, like many things we do in life. If they did I doubt they would have done it. Hindsight is 20/20.

We need to teach respect in homes and the MTC more. It is a crucial characteristic to develop.

Papajoel | 8:05 a.m. March 11, 2008

What saddens me is this is the fruit of deeply entrenched attitudes that go back to the Book of Mormon which teaches there are only two churches - the LDS church and the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10). You can't teach something like that for generations and not expect the inbred despising of all other religions to come out in actions like this.

Imagine | 8:09 a.m. March 11, 2008

How we would feel if members of another religion broke off the head of Moroni from a temple and took pictures of the affair in such a way as to make fun of the LDS faith?

And I agree that the medium is the message. The LDS membership as a body do not fully respect any other religion since we believe the keys were lost. That, I suspect, is probably wrong in and of itself regardless of Mormon theology.

Let the 3 men pay the price and all of us reflect on what is in our cuture that would consider this acceptable or at least trivial.

If it were done to us, would we have a sense of humor about it or would we be outraged? I think the later.

Wes | 8:15 a.m. March 11, 2008

"Boys will be boys," but they should be men. It is one thing to take irreverant photos, and entirely different to vandalize someone's sacred place. Neither should be done. Restitution is in order.

Non=believer | 10:03 a.m. March 11, 2008

The names should be released. They are adults. In the legal world they do not have protection as do juvies. The fact that the church refuses to release the names makes it obvious that the church will protect them. So much for apologies.

chris | 10:52 a.m. March 11, 2008

I hear "boys will be boys" and there is a lot of truth to that. But these "boys" are adults representing their faith. Their family undoubtedly sacraficed a cosiderable amount of money to have these men fulfill their mission, not their "rite of passage" as some will say. I am Catholic and my wife is LDS. Respect for other faiths is a cardinal tenet for both Catholics and Mormons alike. Do I feel that this act will go unpunished?... NO. But surley it will be forgiven. Both churches are christian.And as christians we must forgive.

@FatherH | 11:19 a.m. March 11, 2008

The majority of the comments posted have been from LDS members. Mostly all people who have
commented agree that these acts are inexcusable, and these MEN should be punished. I know most of
the LDS members worldwide are appalled by these acts. Doesn't that tell you something about
the LDS church? We definitely DO NOT think that we are better than catholic people, and we in NO
WAY teach our missionaries that we are. We are taught to respect and love people of other
religions. D&C 38:16 ï¿½...and all flesh is mine, and I am no respecter of persons.ï¿½ Every person
in the LDS church, and Iï¿½m sure it is the same in the Catholic church, is taught that we are all
children of God, we are all equal in the eyes of God. Being mortals, we all make mistakes. These missionaries were not right in their actions, but it is not our place to judge them, or the LDS church. "For the Lord is our judge." (Isaiah 33:22)

Anonymous | 11:48 a.m. March 11, 2008

I think those who did this terrible thing should be required to go to the parish at their own expense and apologize to everyone associated with it. Then they should be required to pay for their stupidity by working for the parish on some manual labor tasks until the debt is paid. Then perhaps they and others will realize that disrespectful acts toward other religions by any of us are simply not acceptable.

Phillip C. Smith

To @FatherH | 11:59 a.m. March 11, 2008

Well said. I'm a Catholic living in Utah and agree with your statement. We both love God but in differing ways. This doesn't make either of us less human. We need to reach out to one another and accept each other instead of ridiculing each others differing theologies.

unclesmrgol | 12:52 p.m. March 11, 2008

I'm a Catholic. My church teaches that people are individually responsible for their own sins. Those boys are responsible for theirs. My church also teaches forgiveness (I'm sure yours does too), but my church also teaches that the boys themselves must acknowledge their sins and perform a penance (act to repair, as much as possible, the damage caused by the sin), in order to be forgiven by God. Your church may teach differently, but hopefully this gives you the mindset Catholics will use in measuring the boy's repentance (if any). Having your church replace broken things and remove pictures depicting irreverence isn't the ticket to the Catholic mind -- the boys themselves must ask forgiveness -- preferably in person from the congregation they have wronged. Such an action would almost certainly heal the wounds caused by their rash works. That act would be wholly consistent with both Catholic and Mormon teaching, I believe.

If I (a non-Mormon) were to sneak into one of your Holy of Holies (Ordinance room) and do equivalent acts, what would you expect from me for forgiveness? Turn that thought around and you get the idea.

Baptist | 12:58 p.m. March 11, 2008

Well let me first say the LDS missionaries were wrong in what they did. I have been Baptist my whole life (57 yrs.) I have read the comments here and I find some catholics here just as hypocritical as what the mormon missionaries did. The Father that posts on here is saying the mormons need to change their doctorine to make things right. To me that is sinking to the level in which you felt the mormons sunk to. My son's best friend stole 2,000 dollars from my wife's purse years ago and the kid was catholic. Went to church always. So now what does that make all Catholics bad? Of course not. Just like missionaries did stupid things that were wrong but that was the actions of a few not the whole mormon faith. I do not agree with the mormon doctorine but I do not believe that Catholic Fathers should get on here and bash the mormon faith for what happened, that is just as hypocritical.

To: Phillip C Smith | 1:10 p.m. March 11, 2008

Mr Smith, you seem to have a good handle on what these men can do to make restitution with the parish. Would you be willing to accept a similar form of restitution for the thousands of catholic priests that sexually-abused young men?

How would you want them to pay their debt back to the families that were impacted by their actions? Should each of those priests work for the families of their victims to repay for their stupidity?

Just wondering if the same rules would apply...

To Baptist | 1:18 p.m. March 11, 2008

Do you really believe that the person posting as
Father H is really a Catholic priest. I don't think so.
This webpost does require an I.D.
If I was that disrespectful I could post as Pres. Hinkley. Does that make me him. I don't think so. Please use some common sense and don't think for a moment that he represents the Catholic church in any way.

Wonderful... | 1:37 p.m. March 11, 2008

Isn't it wonderful that we live in a country where so many diverse opinions can be expressed without fear of retribution or persecution. If we did live in a country that did do that, at least half of the people who have posted on this site would have their heads handed to them similar to the physical condition of the statue that the missionaries beheaded.

Adam | 2:41 p.m. March 11, 2008

The real fact of the matter is these men. Yes, in the united states after you turn 18 you are an adult, broke the law, and they should be punished just like anyone else who breakes the law. But because they were missionaries they are held to a different standard. They represent their faith. By doing something stupid, immature and disrespectful like this, they gave their church a black eye. I have a problem with many of the people who refuse to admit these kids did something wrong. They need to apologize, and if the catholic paritioners are true christians they will forgive them and move on.

beth anne | 4:26 p.m. March 11, 2008

all i can imagine is our Father in heaven shaking His head in disappointment over the poor examples left by: 3 ambassadors of the lds church in the san luis community and now the world; those who now try to 'justify' the irresponsible behavior of criminal vandalism and crude sacrilege by the legally adult young men; those who also use the disrespectful acts as justification to jab and denounce the lds members and church as a whole. how very sad...
catholics, mormons, methodists, baptists, muslims, buddhists, lutherans, jews, pentecostals, episcopalians, jehovah's witnesses, etc build and dedicate cathedrals, chapels, synagogues, temples and churches based on devotion, appreciation and love of God. this was one of God's homes which was violated but also violated was the love and efforts of those who had made the sacrifice to provide it.
these 3 deserve to pay for repair expenses and whatever the law demands of such vandalism but i hope they also choose and are 'allowed' to contribute time in serving these catholic members and this san luis catholic church to truly compensate them.

David | 4:37 p.m. March 11, 2008

I am not LDS, although I belong to another often-persecuted "new religion." It's not certain one of the boys actually broke off the statue's head. If one did, it would definitely qualify as a crime. If not, it means no crime has been committed other than perhaps trespassing in the church. Nevertheless, those boys committed an act of deep insensitivity that reflects poorly on all religious people.

Whether they broke it or not, they should confess, repent, and deeply apologize to the members of that Catholic church. If their repentance is sincere, I think the members of that Catholic church should not press charges, but should require restitution in the form of sincere effort to repair the statue and public service in that church and community. The boys will learn valuable lessons, justice will be satisfied, and the statue will be restored.

Every church has foolish teenagers. The important thing is to make sure this isolated act by foolish teens does not allow non-religious people to say that all religious people are hypocrites or drive a wedge between between those of different faiths who love God, and who actually have much more in common than than they realize or admit.

Scott T. Boy | 6:58 p.m. March 11, 2008

Beth Anne is one insightful Lady, and I agree 110% with her sentiment. Shame on those of any religion who use this as an excuse to vent and to throw stones they must be carrying around.

Brian | 7:54 p.m. March 11, 2008

Let the haters contiune to comment. These were three boys who do not represent the Church. The church is true but three obviously had a lapse in judgement. For those worried about numbers this is less than on percent of one percent of one percent of the LDS population. The Catholics just have an ax to grind as this was very insignificant to them and far less significant to us. Just a news flash nothing more and another attack on the LDS Church.

azcapt1 | 8:13 p.m. March 11, 2008

It is with a humble heart that I feel sorry for all the damage that has been done. Not just to the statue but to the people of the Catholic faith and those that worked so hard to build and maintain this place of importance to them. From me and my family we are deeply sorry for the acts of others that show such disrespect for your faith and you as a fellow member of the Christian and Human Race.

Vegas Ed | 11:08 p.m. March 11, 2008

Very immature kids. If anyone thinks a single member of the LDS church condones what they did would be wrong. The boys probably were never reprimanded for smaller things, and it escalated to something like this. The boys will obviously be reprimanded, but they don't deserve the electric chair. They should and I'm sure will pay for all the physical damages done. The church will help with reparations as much as they can also. What else more can the church do but apologize and promise to teach the missionaries even more about how to act. I guess after 200 years of missionaries, some of them have to do something crazy like this.

RN78 | 11:49 p.m. March 11, 2008

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools for 12 years. I converted to the LDS church while I was in college.I would like Father H to know that I was taught that the Catholic church was the only true church while attending Catholic schools. We were also taught not to attend any other church even for a wedding so you see Catholics also believe they are the true church. It is unfortunate that these young missionaries made such a poor choice while serving their mission and they should make restitution. I do not believe that they truely were trying to insult the Catholic church. I hope they have learned from their terrible mistake.

Comments from paradise | 12:55 a.m. March 12, 2008

In reply a policeman in San Luis said the statue came from Mexico and the statue's head was damaged before it arrived. Think about it, if the statue or building would had been vandalized in 2006, why were they not reported before now? There was nothing in the local newspaper on vandalism. This is getting blown way out of porportion, and based mainly on a prejudism that has existed in the San Luis Valley for decades.
The missionaries actions were wrong. There is no excuse, but the accusations are also completely wrong.

SJ Bobkins | 2:12 a.m. March 12, 2008

These momma's babies embarrassed their church as well as themselves. There should be a zero tolerance towards such events. Do we see the same reaction in the case of the teenagers who every weekend dump beer cans on the temple grounds in Idaho Falls, and write graffiti where they can? The church just deals with it rather than seeking police time. Where are the bleeding hearts when a missionary wakes to find shredded Book of Mormons and human excrement on their front lawn? I worked for CNA Insurance in Denver and as the only Mormon, the harassment was non-stop. I'd leave my desk for lunch to return and find Playboy foldouts pasted to my file cabinets with notes that these were my dream polygamist wives. When gift exchanges came about, I got wrecked Book of Mormons wrapped as Christmas presents. It's OK to act out on Mormons, the only legal hate crime. If the congregation had been wise they would have just left this alone since they had no idea the crimes had occurred. Turn the other cheek isn't that the Christian thing?

Kurt | 8:30 a.m. March 12, 2008

I have sent a donation to the church that was vandalized. I know that this can't make up the injuries these people have received at the hands of our missionaries, but I hope it can at least help restore their shrine. I encourage others to do the same.

The address is:

Sange de Christi Parish
P.O. Box 326
San Luis, CO 81152

sfcretdennis | 9:11 a.m. March 12, 2008

As a LDS member I find this appalling anyone from a fath who has been harmed my this typ of act should know better and as LDS we should know better. AS fair as I am concerned all three should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, cause this is what I would expect of anyone who would do this to any of of our church or temple building.

Anonymous | 9:12 a.m. March 12, 2008

The Parish does not want your money. You cannot BUY forgiveness. This isn't about the money or the physical damage. It is about respect and human decency. They want your respect. They want you to stop preaching against them (that their Church is wrong). You can't buy that! Quit trying to assuage your guilty consciences with money.

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