Reader comments
Lawmakers combine education, tax bills
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Good Idea | 5:50 a.m. March 4, 2008
It is probably a good idea to combine these bills. I can already hear the UEA
crying foul. They will not want anything based on performancce. I really think
more of it needs to be based on performance. Real reform and the UEA are
diametric opposites.
Anonymous | 6:17 a.m. March 4, 2008
The software is from Waterford and it has not been tested on preschoolers to see
if it even helps them. This money essentially allows them to do the testing on
tax payer dollars. The bill that originally paid for this was defeated in the
House last Thursday and now they have snuck it in to the omnibus bill. Your
Representatives and tax dollars at work.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 6:36 a.m. March 4, 2008
Just sneak in some UEA defeating provision. Please.
My view | 6:49 a.m. March 4, 2008
This is an interesting twist. Too bad there is not more real reform to include
in it. That would be one way to institute overdue reforms to the state public
education system. That may be the only way to ever get real reforms into
education. The UEA and the State Office of Education would not know reform if it
bit them on the _ _ _ (posterior).
Anonymous | 7:01 a.m. March 4, 2008
The fact that at least three bills that have been previously defeated are being
put into this omnibus catchall is ridiculous. It means that a small group of
legislative leadership is micromanaging education. Putting in ideas that have
had no time for public debate, like pay for performance, something that was
agreed upon to be worked out of the next year, and miraculously funded with $25
million dollars is amazing.
Why all the venom against UEA? Don't people see the whole education community, PTA, school boards, and superintendents speaking out?
Why all the venom against UEA? Don't people see the whole education community, PTA, school boards, and superintendents speaking out?
Educational Technology Expert | 7:24 a.m. March 4, 2008
Waterford software is extremely expensive and shows very little in student
improvement. There is a better way to use technology to raise test scores. For
some reason Senator Howard Stevenson has been pushing integrated learning
systems or Drill and kill software for several years now. If we were really
smart we would be looking at what the state of Maine is doing in giving each
child a Macintosh laptop and providing professional development for the
teachers. Drill and practice software in a lab is a step backwards. Kids need
modern tools 24/7 just like we in the business world have access to our modern
tools 24/7. Drill and practice software is a very short sighted way to go.
This bill is bad legislation. They are trying to sneak through those bills that have already been killed. I would call and tell your senator to vote the whole thing down until they can be honest with the public.
This bill is bad legislation. They are trying to sneak through those bills that have already been killed. I would call and tell your senator to vote the whole thing down until they can be honest with the public.
Science Teacher | 7:43 a.m. March 4, 2008
If the software is Waterford Literacy, then it has been tested, just maybe not
by Utah. It is used for pre-readers and early readers in several subjects up
through pre-teen ages.
I volunteered for the program and spent several months on it. Once kids learn how to operate a mouse, it is pretty self-directed.
Yes, it works, and yes it helps kids. My only concern would be using it to replace Kindergarten teachers, which it shouldn't.
Then again, considering the exodus of teachers in this state, maybe that's what it IS all about.
I volunteered for the program and spent several months on it. Once kids learn how to operate a mouse, it is pretty self-directed.
Yes, it works, and yes it helps kids. My only concern would be using it to replace Kindergarten teachers, which it shouldn't.
Then again, considering the exodus of teachers in this state, maybe that's what it IS all about.
Say What? | 8:57 a.m. March 4, 2008
More shenanigans by our "voted" legislatures. What is it about
getting voted into an office and leaving all common sense and brains back in the
house.
I thought I left luny legislators in California when I moved back to Utah, but it looks like many of them simply followed me here.
The best things that can happen to a preschooler is to educate the parent who apparently is not doing the job and then the educated parent can help other children as they come along. Sadly too many of these preschoolers have parents who made little effort to get a quality education when they were in school. Parties and goofing or cutting school was more important to them. I speak from 33 years of experience seeing this time and time again.
Merit pay is a wonderful thing. When a high school teacher has 180 students from 180 different backgrounds it is rather difficult to see exactly how it will work. I would love to see a quality merit pay system which factors in this 180 X 180 to equal 32400 various settings in a given day a teacher must face.
Teaching Learning styles does better to get expected benefits.
I thought I left luny legislators in California when I moved back to Utah, but it looks like many of them simply followed me here.
The best things that can happen to a preschooler is to educate the parent who apparently is not doing the job and then the educated parent can help other children as they come along. Sadly too many of these preschoolers have parents who made little effort to get a quality education when they were in school. Parties and goofing or cutting school was more important to them. I speak from 33 years of experience seeing this time and time again.
Merit pay is a wonderful thing. When a high school teacher has 180 students from 180 different backgrounds it is rather difficult to see exactly how it will work. I would love to see a quality merit pay system which factors in this 180 X 180 to equal 32400 various settings in a given day a teacher must face.
Teaching Learning styles does better to get expected benefits.
Stuart | 9:57 a.m. March 4, 2008
Give the money to the districts? That has to be the worst idea mentioned in a
bill full of bad ideas. If you aren't going to give the money directly to
the teachers, don't give it at all. At least not until you have built in
some checks and balances to keep the districts from misappropriating it. In
fact, I wouldn't even allocate it to the teachers unless there are some
strict protections built in to protect it from fraudulent abuse by districts.
Giving money to those theives is like throwing it in a black hole.
Anonymous | 10:30 a.m. March 4, 2008
To Science Teacher:
Waterford told me themselves that it had not been tested yet--straight from the horses mouth. In fact, they were very evasive when that question was asked. It seemed obvious that they didn't want us to know that part.
Waterford told me themselves that it had not been tested yet--straight from the horses mouth. In fact, they were very evasive when that question was asked. It seemed obvious that they didn't want us to know that part.
Anonymous | 10:30 a.m. March 4, 2008
I don't see why the taxpayers have to fund computer programs for
preschoolers. It is infinitely better for a parent to read with a preschooler,
allows them to talk about what they are reading, ask questions, respond to
questions, and so on. Can't do any of that with a software program. We
are so tempted to turn everything over to computers. The kids will miss out on
a lot if we get rid that parental interaction that should be taking place a
preschoolers education and replace it with a computer.
Wow | 10:59 a.m. March 4, 2008
Are these Legislators really this pompous?
Do they feel accountable to anyone?
I am going for a straight anti-incumbent ticket next Election
Do they feel accountable to anyone?
I am going for a straight anti-incumbent ticket next Election
walkon | 11:12 a.m. March 4, 2008
The good citizens of Utah sacrifice so teachers can get a raise, but
administrators making 135K a year must get their % out of it before it reaches
the bottom (that would be teachers). At 3%, a principal making 90K gets a 2700
dollar raise, a first year teacher gets a 900 dollar raise. This is what keeps
salaries for teachers so low! If it is earmarked for teachers then make sure
teachers are the ones who get it! It has NEVER happened.
Science Teacher | 11:22 a.m. March 4, 2008
To Anon: have you seen the program in use? Do you know anything of the
efficacy?
I have. I've had my own son use it for reading skills. It doesn't supplant a Kindergarten teacher. It just supplements. And it does a great job.
I have. I've had my own son use it for reading skills. It doesn't supplant a Kindergarten teacher. It just supplements. And it does a great job.
Wow + | 11:24 a.m. March 4, 2008
I agree with Wow I am going for a straight anti-incumbent ticket next
Election.
The next thing you know we will have bills like the US Congress that cover everything and the people get left out.
The next thing you know we will have bills like the US Congress that cover everything and the people get left out.
Mother who knows | 12:12 p.m. March 4, 2008
Walkon, you are wrong. Teacher's salaries, mid-management (school
principals), and administrative salaries are all negotiated separately. So,
teachers could get 3%, while administrators get nothing. But, Utah has fewer
administrators per student than any other state. Believe it or not, more
administrators in a building means there are more people to deal with problem
students, allowing teacher to teach.
UEA is not powerful. Stop playing the blame game. The union does not stop reform. Parents stop it. Parents do not want their students challenged or thinking critically. They want to be told that their students are "good kids" and they want them to have easy "A"s. Until Utah believes that a quality education is worth the sacrifice of money, time , and energy by the entire community, nothing will change in Utah. Don't blame UEA, blame yourselves.
UEA is not powerful. Stop playing the blame game. The union does not stop reform. Parents stop it. Parents do not want their students challenged or thinking critically. They want to be told that their students are "good kids" and they want them to have easy "A"s. Until Utah believes that a quality education is worth the sacrifice of money, time , and energy by the entire community, nothing will change in Utah. Don't blame UEA, blame yourselves.
Science Teacher | 12:22 p.m. March 4, 2008
I'm not a UEA member (and that ruffles a lot of feathers) nor do I support
them, but I have to agree with "Mother".
The UEA doesn't have much of a say in the day to day affairs. PARENTS do, and they sure muck it up quite a bit because of the enabling practice that has all but become a disease in schools.
The UEA doesn't have much of a say in the day to day affairs. PARENTS do, and they sure muck it up quite a bit because of the enabling practice that has all but become a disease in schools.
Slapped | 12:40 p.m. March 4, 2008
Why is the profession of teaching always attacked in such a vehement, ugly
manner? Why is teachers' pay always the last to be legislated and
continually short changed? Teacher shortage? If not now, I believe a large one
is coming. Critics, feel free to fill my job.
Mother Who Knows, #2 | 12:40 p.m. March 4, 2008
I agree whole heartedly with the Mother who knows.
Overall our parents, teachers, and administrators are all working hard to provide the best homes, classrooms and schools possible. They have more kids in the class and work for less pay than almost every other state in the nation.
The multiple anti-UEA comments reflect an attitude of blame, ignorance and hate.
Those attitudes are very unproductive. Rather than sit back and be critical I suggest all those who wrote in call their legislator and share your feelings. Then vote for someone who accurately reflects your political ideals.
How did we get here??? Howard Stephenson who sponsored the Pre-school software bill has never had a real fight to win his election. Maybe we can change that.
Overall our parents, teachers, and administrators are all working hard to provide the best homes, classrooms and schools possible. They have more kids in the class and work for less pay than almost every other state in the nation.
The multiple anti-UEA comments reflect an attitude of blame, ignorance and hate.
Those attitudes are very unproductive. Rather than sit back and be critical I suggest all those who wrote in call their legislator and share your feelings. Then vote for someone who accurately reflects your political ideals.
How did we get here??? Howard Stephenson who sponsored the Pre-school software bill has never had a real fight to win his election. Maybe we can change that.
Anonymous | 12:53 p.m. March 4, 2008
To Science Teacher:
Did you read what I said? Waterford reps told me themselves that the program that was going to be used was untested. If that's true (and I'm assuming they were telling the truth), then of course I haven't used it. Neither have you. Perhaps the program that will be used isn't the one you are referring to.
Did you read what I said? Waterford reps told me themselves that the program that was going to be used was untested. If that's true (and I'm assuming they were telling the truth), then of course I haven't used it. Neither have you. Perhaps the program that will be used isn't the one you are referring to.
Steve | 12:53 p.m. March 4, 2008
Mother how knows, I completely agree with you. I have talked to numerous
teachers who are fed up and frustrated with the large number of parents that
complain about the miniscule amount of homework they give, or about how
difficult the class is. Sometimes I wonder if the real problem in public
education these days is really the parents who don't want their kids
challenged or who want to make sure that every minute after school is left for
extracurricular activities like sport, piano, violin, dance, theater, etc.,
leaving no time for homework.
Science Teacher | 1:21 p.m. March 4, 2008
By "untested" it means they probably haven't had people running
tests of efficacy... studies, if you will, to test the numbers of success vs.
other methods.
I've used the Waterford program. Granted, it may be updated over time with a newer version (and should be), but I'm not an idiot and did not spend several months watching kids work on imaginary software.
Just maybe, maybe, you misheard or misunderstood.
I've used the Waterford program. Granted, it may be updated over time with a newer version (and should be), but I'm not an idiot and did not spend several months watching kids work on imaginary software.
Just maybe, maybe, you misheard or misunderstood.
re Educational Technology Expert | 2:25 p.m. March 4, 2008
Drill is not kill. Yes Math needs to be more than drill, but it needs drill,
drill imparts a number sense, students also need to perform problem solving and
need to understand why and how the math that they do works.
You are no expert. If you were you would realize that drill, prepares helps to prepare students minds for algebra. Math education "experts" have given us math where there is no drill, students as a result have to rely on calculators, and later when they get into algebra they are not prepared, and do poorly there too.
Math Education Majors, you are forever learning and not able to come to a knowledge of the educational truth. We have entrusted our kids to you, but hopefully no more.
We are taking the power of what to teach back from you. You have mis-used your power, and hopefully Utah will rely on your services less and less in the future, relying instead upon real mathematicians and other related fields that have a clue of how to teach.
You are no expert. If you were you would realize that drill, prepares helps to prepare students minds for algebra. Math education "experts" have given us math where there is no drill, students as a result have to rely on calculators, and later when they get into algebra they are not prepared, and do poorly there too.
Math Education Majors, you are forever learning and not able to come to a knowledge of the educational truth. We have entrusted our kids to you, but hopefully no more.
We are taking the power of what to teach back from you. You have mis-used your power, and hopefully Utah will rely on your services less and less in the future, relying instead upon real mathematicians and other related fields that have a clue of how to teach.
Science Teacher | 2:46 p.m. March 4, 2008
While I agree with your above comments, I differ on the last statement.
"Real" mathemeticians are not necessarily good teachers. You have to know both, math and teaching, in order to effectively teach kids.
"Real" mathemeticians are not necessarily good teachers. You have to know both, math and teaching, in order to effectively teach kids.
Oak | 2:51 p.m. March 4, 2008
To: Educational Technology Expert
Your comments about Senator Stephenson's thinking are incorrect (it's not for practice, but direct intervention as students move toward the wrong answers).
Further, your use of "drill & kill" indicates you may be a constructivist.
Why is it that the largest education study ever funded by the government ($1 billion, 170,000 students, watched for 3 decades) conclusively proved that direct instruction is FAR superior to discovery learning, and today our education colleges are pushing this damaging methodology into teacher's minds to dumb down our children?
"Project Follow Through" proved that children learn best by being taught and not discovering it for themselves. Why do educators ignore this landmark study? I applaud Senator Stephenson for his tireless work in helping to raise math standards in Utah and secure better pay for teachers that understand the content of the coursework. Too many teachers can't do the math they're supposed to be teaching.
Your comments about Senator Stephenson's thinking are incorrect (it's not for practice, but direct intervention as students move toward the wrong answers).
Further, your use of "drill & kill" indicates you may be a constructivist.
Why is it that the largest education study ever funded by the government ($1 billion, 170,000 students, watched for 3 decades) conclusively proved that direct instruction is FAR superior to discovery learning, and today our education colleges are pushing this damaging methodology into teacher's minds to dumb down our children?
"Project Follow Through" proved that children learn best by being taught and not discovering it for themselves. Why do educators ignore this landmark study? I applaud Senator Stephenson for his tireless work in helping to raise math standards in Utah and secure better pay for teachers that understand the content of the coursework. Too many teachers can't do the math they're supposed to be teaching.
Steven Jarvis | 6:10 p.m. March 4, 2008
I have rarely heard praise for Stephenson. He was one of the three who stopped
(temporarily) the IB program in committee and has caused many a fracas in
educational circles. Hopefully his bitter fight last year over vouchers will
get someone in office that puts service and education as the number one
priority.
Anonymous | 6:35 p.m. March 4, 2008
Careful what you say or that guy will start posting on here about investigations
again!
My kid flourished with investigations because we taught him the easy rote memory stuff at home. He can divide, multiply, add, & subtract decimals, fractions and anything else you want. And now thanks to investigations he can tell you 4 different ways to do it.
He has straight A's in 7th grade Algebra and will be in geometry next year.
Thanks Alpine district and a couple of caring teachers who decided to work within the system instead of kicking against the pricks. They saw that it didn't have to be all one or the other but a combination of the two is best.
I'm just sorry so many parents bought into the argument against it before realizing what it offered.
Your kids will suffer.
My kid flourished with investigations because we taught him the easy rote memory stuff at home. He can divide, multiply, add, & subtract decimals, fractions and anything else you want. And now thanks to investigations he can tell you 4 different ways to do it.
He has straight A's in 7th grade Algebra and will be in geometry next year.
Thanks Alpine district and a couple of caring teachers who decided to work within the system instead of kicking against the pricks. They saw that it didn't have to be all one or the other but a combination of the two is best.
I'm just sorry so many parents bought into the argument against it before realizing what it offered.
Your kids will suffer.
SSDD | 8:04 p.m. March 4, 2008
Same stuff, different day. Promises promises promises. This one educator that
has stopped believing that we will ever see real support from the legislature.
Steven Jarvis | 8:14 p.m. March 4, 2008
I agreed with Oak on most of the issues discussed during the math wars. I was
however perplexed to see his comments regarding Stephenson. I have followed
Stephenson's voting record for years now to know how bad he has been for
Utah education and am guardedly optimistic someone pro-education replaces
him.
Drop UEA, join the UTCE! | 8:31 a.m. March 5, 2008
It is time for teachers to join a new organization called the Utah Council of
Educators.
They want to work with the Legislature (both Dems and Republicans) to better education and better the plight of teachers. They support money going directly to teacher salaries versus the WPU where in many districts this money is simply lost and never makes the paychecks of teachers.
The public is not fully aware of this ongoing problem. They see that the WPU was raised 3% or 6% or something and assume that is going to teachers' pockets. The current WPU funding is likely, in our district, not to fund any type of raise. With increased medical costs, the "raise" will only be eaten up by these sources again leaving teachers out in the cold and frustrated, all while many in the public thinks the teachers "got this big raise and should stop whining." Supporting the raise directly to the teachers is the way to go if you really want to help teachers (and still many districts found ways to make the $2500 raise last be just $1900 in take home pay for teachers).
Teachers--it's time for a change! Join the Utah Council of Educators!
They want to work with the Legislature (both Dems and Republicans) to better education and better the plight of teachers. They support money going directly to teacher salaries versus the WPU where in many districts this money is simply lost and never makes the paychecks of teachers.
The public is not fully aware of this ongoing problem. They see that the WPU was raised 3% or 6% or something and assume that is going to teachers' pockets. The current WPU funding is likely, in our district, not to fund any type of raise. With increased medical costs, the "raise" will only be eaten up by these sources again leaving teachers out in the cold and frustrated, all while many in the public thinks the teachers "got this big raise and should stop whining." Supporting the raise directly to the teachers is the way to go if you really want to help teachers (and still many districts found ways to make the $2500 raise last be just $1900 in take home pay for teachers).
Teachers--it's time for a change! Join the Utah Council of Educators!
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UEA President Kim Campbell speaks at press conference in which lawmakers were urged to shift more money into the state's basic student funding formula.
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$$$ for software for pre-schoolers? Where in the heck did that idea come from? Worse use of tax money I have ever heard of. Did that legislator have stock in some computer company? Was it held by a relative?
Seriously. That one is out there....