Deseret News | Reader comments: Utah's No. 1 for governing

Reader comments
Utah's No. 1 for governing

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SLC'er | 12:17 a.m. March 4, 2008

Hmmm . . . I wonder why? Could it be that our state government is really run by a certain church? And the sheep say "baaaaaaaa."

If this is the good one... | 1:09 a.m. March 4, 2008

I'd hate to live in one of the badly run states. Wow! They must be REALLY baaaaaaaa d!

Anonymous | 1:05 a.m. March 4, 2008

You wonder why we are the best run gov't and then try to make it sound negative?

If the church is at the head of the gov't then we should be thanking them for putting us on top of the nation!

Count me as a sheep if I am following the best.

BAAAAAAAAA.

Comments continue below

Yes, and the Church is run by... | 1:12 a.m. March 4, 2008

God. So no wonder it's doing so well!

If the people were a little more perfect, the grade would be an A.

(Yes, this is a tongue-in-cheek response to the first comment.)

TristanUofU | 1:17 a.m. March 4, 2008

It's not because of Huntsman, that is for sure. It's the house majority leader Dave Clark that has really taken on all the tough challenges the last few years if any of you haven't noticed. I hope he runs for Congress!!!

Yeah that's it... | 2:10 a.m. March 4, 2008

So the state is ranked at the top of an independent, un-biased study and that is your response? That the state government is taking care of the people of Utah (both sheep and non-sheep) and planning for the future is somehow bad? That money is being spent with accountability and acumen is a result of some link with the majority of the stateï¿½s population and that is unacceptable? I am a legal resident of Utah, speak a foreign language, have a degree in fine arts and live in Africa. Yeah, we are a bunch of sheep.

SLC'er | 2:38 a.m. March 4, 2008

folks, I was making a point about how the 1st Amendment and a little phrase known as "separation between church and state" don't seem to exist in Utah. Thank you for pointing out that most of the constituents are fine with that un-American viewpoint. That, my fellow Utahns, is why you are sheep. Baaaaaaaa!!

SLC'er | 2:36 a.m. March 4, 2008

one more comment please, its too good. Please look at Separation of Church and State on wikipedia and then look for the LDS section underneath. Ohhhh the irony. Obviously I didn't post that (and i know that wikipedia is not to be taken as a serious source) for all you questioning that.

russ | 5:30 a.m. March 4, 2008

It is a report on how effective the government is run. It is not a report on how well the people are served. Do the Native Americans in Utah have adequate housing? What is the unemployment rate for the Indians? How many illegal immigrants are working in Utah and how come the number is that high?

Effective cost-spending accountability is one thing. Solving social problems that are so apparent is another.

Be careful what you make of the report.

ScottAZ | 6:08 a.m. March 4, 2008

Congratulations Utah! From a sheep not living in Utah. Baaaaaaa!

I don't care whether the best | 6:31 a.m. March 4, 2008

state is related to a certain church or not. As long as it is the best state. That is why all my three children are living in this best state.

Sam Hampton | 6:45 a.m. March 4, 2008

If there were a violation of the separation between church and state, which is unconstitutional, then I would suggest taking it up with the court system. If you are complaining that Utah is embued by Mormon culture, and that is a bad thing, then try living in states (which I currently do) imbued by a secular left ideology, or some other ideology. Not necessarily bad things, but Utah has it good compared to other places in the country that are struggling a great deal with budgets, unfunded mandates, and so-far unkept promises for retiree health care.

Noel Cayton | 6:41 a.m. March 4, 2008

Why do so many people think that "separation of church and state" involved the independent states? The phraze does not exist in the U.S. Constitution.
The first amendment simply states that the federal government (all branches) is not to interfere with religion while while it gives individual states (10th amendment) unlimited freedoms to govern. And, of course,laws differ from state to state as does the management of state governments.

Anonymous | 6:54 a.m. March 4, 2008

I love to live in a state rated #1. Those who are not happy to live here and say we are sheep, just go to another state, because we will be better off without them. This is a free country, people should love where they like to.

get real | 7:08 a.m. March 4, 2008

obviously SLC'er has no concept of the idea of separation of church and state beyond the ability to spew the phrase in an effort to mask personal intolerance

And? | 7:03 a.m. March 4, 2008

How well a state is run as little influence on quality of life. See this, I will remain in California were the government is dysfunctional and the climate is better. It's so nice not knowing the religion of your neighbors.

From currently overseas | 7:17 a.m. March 4, 2008

Perhaps it has something to do with a state income tax rate of over 7%. Other states I have had to pay taxes in. or lived next door to, have had income tax rates from 0 to 3.5%. It is a lot easier to manage when you have everything you need, and certainly gives you a lot less to argue about.

Kevin | 7:15 a.m. March 4, 2008

"And the sheep say 'baaaaa'," almost made me spray coffee on my computer!

Er, wait until the big quake hits, though, then Utah will rank 50th.

I likes this | 7:19 a.m. March 4, 2008

now i can use it in my business class, now if some of those hick counties with the high child ratios would just do the tighten up too! Let's all do the TIGTHEN UP and completly cut off the raises of our most important resources THE TEACHERS...YOU KNOW MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK!!!

Kevin | 7:28 a.m. March 4, 2008

One of the best parts about the Utah government not mentioned by the article is that it is against the constitution of the state to have a state debt. Therefore the budget is always balanced. I wish our nation would adopt a similar measure.

MINNIE | 7:30 a.m. March 4, 2008

I am happy for that report.
And I am happy with Governor Huntsmans good governing. (Thank You)
I am happy living in Utah with the dominating religion.
Being a sheep isn't so bad...it just depends on who the master is!

Where are taxes 3.5%? | 7:54 a.m. March 4, 2008

I live in Texas and pay 8.8% and food prices are probably double what I paid in Utah. No complaints about no state income tax but they get you somewhere else (Property Tax). Lastly, if I remember the scriptures correctly, I don't remember Christ ever referring to sheep (his followers) in a derogatory manner. Wolves in "sheeps" clothing is another matter.

Recently moved to Michigan | 7:55 a.m. March 4, 2008

I am not from Utah, but I was perfectly happy lving in Utah until my job took me to Michigan. Now, I long for the days of living in a state where every other house is not for sale, businesses are not closing up and moving elsewhere, and my neighbors are not losing their jobs. Meanwhile, the gov't is raising taxes. My property taxes are already 5x what they were in Utah as are my utility bills.

On the other hand, as an member of the LDS church, I do not miss the constant criticism of my religion. And how those not associated with the LDS Church seem to constantly whine about the influence it has in Utah. Noboday treats me any differently in Michigan. My religion is respected like any other.

Seperation of Church and state??? Since when is it illegal to not be member of the LDS Church in Utah? Are children forced to take a Book of Mormon class? Are stores forced to be closed on Sunday? Yes, the LDS Church has influence in Utah becasue the majority of the population agree with the doctrine. But the LDS Church is not a legal entitiy in Utah.

Taxes=Good | 8:14 a.m. March 4, 2008

Let us not forget that a well managed state comes from a government perspective. The simple translation is they take more money from taxpayers to pay for government programs than other states. We need to take a look at a possible correlation between a well managed state and high bankruptcies, high taxes, low wages, etc.

I would prefer to have a prosperous people who are self sufficient, than a world class capitol building or soccer stadium simply to gain the praise of the world elite.

Once again | 8:23 a.m. March 4, 2008

Of course stuff like this will bring out those against a church or any established religion and anything good that they stand for. Where was the church even mentioned in the article? Who are the sheep now? Baaaaaaaaaaa!

AbeFroman | 8:30 a.m. March 4, 2008

It's funny all this discussion about the "seperation of church and state," it's funny because that phrase appears NOWHERE in the US Consitution or the Declaration of Independence. What?!?!? Yeah, do your research. The widely used phrase appears in a Majority Ruling written by the Supreme Court. It was not a concept that existed in the minds of the founding fathers.

Over-managed citizen | 8:42 a.m. March 4, 2008

Being ranked the best governed state by Governing magazine should be like being ranked the number one crime family by the FBI.

Government does not give one anything without taking it from someone else.

Good news! | 8:50 a.m. March 4, 2008

Great!
This is good news!
I think the whole world should pack up their bags and move to Utah.
There's plenty of room and good jobs for everybody!
Hurry! Hurry! Hurry!

Northern Taxifornian | 9:22 a.m. March 4, 2008

It could be worse, you could live in Taxifornia.

Hail the Citizen | 9:18 a.m. March 4, 2008

Here's a novel idea (sarcasm). Maybe it is the people of the State who do a good job at taking care of the State. Maybe it is that Utah ranks second lowest unemployment in the nation. Once again government leaders are there to represent the people. I am from Idaho but I say Kudo's to the people of Utah for living responsibly, working to better their State, and voting in responsible representatives. Is it any wonder the 2 more conservative States in the nation (Idaho and Utah) also have the lowest unemployment? If you work as a whole, the whole will be prosperous. Go Utah

Anonymous | 9:28 a.m. March 4, 2008

They obviously didn't talk to any of the rank and file state employees. . .

To AbeFroman | 9:31 a.m. March 4, 2008

You need to do your research. The Establishment Clause is what "separation" is all about. Basically the FF DID realize t his as they wanted to avoid a government (in Britain) at the time was congrolled by the Church of England. The Establishment Clause prohibits Congress from ESTABLISHING a national religion. Thus the "separation of Church and State."

While you are correct that there is no such wording in our documents, the concept was there.

katamb-Midvale | 9:42 a.m. March 4, 2008

If we're run that well, how come we're one of the highest taxed communities in the nation? That's not good government to me.

uhhhhh... | 9:53 a.m. March 4, 2008

Best managed if you can manage to ignore the corruption and conflicts of interest, maybe....

Jan Gates | 10:16 a.m. March 4, 2008

Isn't it interesting that throngs of people move to the Great State of Utah every year, to raise their families, get good jobs, enjoy a family oriented culture etc.; then once they move here they start complaining about the very things that created the environment they CHOSE to move TO.

Once they are here, they begin a process to change this state to be what they just left.

To "To Abe Froman" - From AB | 10:17 a.m. March 4, 2008

The Establishment Clause does prohibit Congress from establishing a national religion. However, a national religion does not mean a theocracy as implied by those who misuse the "seperation of chruch and state" phrase. True in Britain the King ran both the country and in finality, the church. However, Britain could never be considered a theocracy (a gov't run by religious heads) - it was a monarchy. The Establishment Clause was instituted to protect the gov't just as much as it was to protect religion. To say the state of Utah needs to honor "the seperation of church and state" because of the LDS church implies a church interferring in matters of state - not establishing a national, or state - if you will, religion. Thusly this is, and arguments like it are, out of the realm of The Establishment Clause.

Ernest T. Bass | 10:31 a.m. March 4, 2008

Utah is one of the highest taxed states in the country. So much for true conservatism.

Anonymous | 10:41 a.m. March 4, 2008

We have the LOWEST tax rates of any of the states I have lived in.

I LOVE it here!

Utah isn't best at Math Educatio | 11:24 a.m. March 4, 2008

About a year ago I bought a vacuum cleaner because consumer reports by its criteria said it was the best vacuum available. It was great at picking up dirt and even had a light to indicate if there was still dirt being picked up in the carpet.

I wasn't very happy with the vacuum however. It was gear driven rather than belt driven. When my wife picked up a large object that caused the brush to not rotate, it damaged the gears. I thought no problem, I will replace the belt, but of course couldn't do it. What normally should have taken a few minutes for me to fix, I instead had to take it in for repair. Also the vacuum was very heavy, my wife didn't like it.

My point is, it is possible for Utah to appear the best governed, and we are based upon the criteria used, however if we actually are is debateable.

Math education in Utah given our demographics is the lowest in the nation. It is significantly lower in quality than when I went to school. People at work who have moved from out of state say Utah math is too easy for kids.

Anonymous | 11:26 a.m. March 4, 2008

One should always be extremely suspicious of any group of people that believes in taxing food.

Anonymous | 11:42 a.m. March 4, 2008

Born and raise for 25 years in Utah. Lived away from Utah for the last 20 years. There is a stark difference in the economy in Utah (for the better) compared to where I live now and in other states around me. Moving back in the next year if I can sell my house in a state with an extrememly depressed economy with hurricane season fast approaching. My husband is alreayd in Utah with his new job and is kissing the ground he walks on because of the relief he already feels financially.
If you live in Utah and are tired of the LDS influence, perhaps it's time to look for a place where you "think" the grass is greener. I dare you to try and find it.

SLC'er | 12:02 p.m. March 4, 2008

Hey Jan Gates and Anonymous @ 11:42, thank you for your imput. I have been born and raised in the Beehive state. I'm 'dang' proud of it too. My ancestors were pioneers and arrived here in 1847. So I really don't think anyone has a right to tell me to leave. I love Utah and was simply criticizing the enormous influence that the Church has on public policy in Utah, to the extent that most local politicians look to the Church for guidance on various secular issues.

Additionally, AbeFroman - Jefferson was the one who coined the phrase "building a wall of separation between church and state." Jefferson isn't a founding father?? I think I did my research.

It would be nice | 12:29 p.m. March 4, 2008

I don't know...I get irritated every time the laws dictating how much flavoring liquor can go in my mixed drink are made up by people who don't drink. It would be nice if the religious majority at least consulted a bartender before deciding how my Margarita is made when I go to a Mexican restaurant.
Plus.. we have a mindbending conflict of interest problem in the legislature here in Utah that everyone seems to like to pretend isn't happening.

philly | 1:02 p.m. March 4, 2008

ALL OF YOU RIPPING ON UTAH SERIOUSLY NEED TO MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE. I never paid a third or more of my paycheck to taxes and other "state/city" fees until I left Utah. My property tax is three times as much, car registration is twice as much, there is no food tax, but everything else is subject to state and community taxes at a much higher rate.
My career will probably never take me back through Utah again, but it was a pretty great place to live while I was there. This recognition is only what some of us have known for years. This being that the state may not be perfect, but go ahead and try to find a better, less corrupt place anywhere.

Re: SLC'er | 1:03 p.m. March 4, 2008

SLC'er, I will assume that you are an educated person who wouldn't present a point of view as fact without strong supporting evidence (see SLC'er's first post). Please provide SPECIFIC and VERIFIABLE evidence for your claim. I truly am curious to hear your response. Yes, many Utahns have similar views on issues because of the religion to which they belong, but that is a far cry from your statement that our "state government is really run by a certain church". Again, please provide support for your claim that the Mormon church "runs" the state.

my two cents | 1:15 p.m. March 4, 2008

I lived in a state with no income tax, but I paid close to 10% sales tax. My vehicle registration fees were the highest in the country for a while (may have changed by now), and my property taxes were 1/3 higher. I took a $200/week cut in take-home pay, but my standard of living went up. I think the vast majority of those ripping on the state are either lashing out at the influence of the dominant religion or are just opposed to all taxes and would complain anywhere they went.

Tax Accountant | 1:31 p.m. March 4, 2008

First of all to people like Philly, there is no need to shout. Utah is not your state anymore than it is mine. How dare you tell someone to move. We can all be here, and no one has claim to the land more than another.

That being said, I agree with you. I moved here from CA, and I got a raise in my take-home pay. I also pay less for gasoline tax and most other taxes, though I do pay a higher sales tax because groceries are not exempt here.

But seriously. I'm a tax accountant and that's no laughing matter. My research on Checkpoint shows that 19 states have higher income tax rates than UT, 14 have lower, and 15 have about the same. I know, that only adds up to 48 + UT makes 49. Oh well. TX isn't part of the union anyway =)

Bottom line: UT is nowhere near the top of the taxing states. Not even close. And this is only income. Try living in Cali, where the property taxes are outrageous (because the values are so high) and you have to pay CA state disability. Also, no city income taxes here.

Just a thought | 1:41 p.m. March 4, 2008

If you want to raise revenue in Utah, tax Jello and Diapers instead of cigarrettes and alcohol

SLC'er | 1:45 p.m. March 4, 2008

Re:SLC'er, first of all, thank you for your assumption. Secondly, the point of view I presented was not fact, more of a subtle hint of sarcasm that is edgy because it borders on truth or fact. Fact: The Governor, Utah State Legislature, and Utah Supreme Court and numerous local government agencies are the ones that truly ('really run') run the state. So, you are correct, that I can't provide examples of the LDS Church actually passing a bill or signing a veto or writing a majority opinion. However, it is also a fact that the Church is involved in many political decisions and that the majority of politicians set in motion the Church's desired policies. Or similarly, local politicians try to inject Church values and policies into state policy. Although everyone here knows its true, if you need some specific examples: Gov. Leavitt's 'seminary meetings'to inject scripture into public policy, the Church's interest in the skybridge, the Main St. Plaza fiasco, Amendment 3, Alco-pops. Those are some off the top of my head. Re-SLC'er, I'd love for you to provide some specific examples of when the Church has taken a position and Utah politicians haven't pushed it through.

TO "To To Abe Froman" | 2:03 p.m. March 4, 2008

My point wasn't whether Britain was a theocracy or not, but that the idea of separation of church and state was there, even if not written word for word in the Constitution.

The issue in Utah is not so much of a theocracy, but rather the way our republic is set up. Go to any part of this country where it is predominatly Mormon, Jewish, or whatever-- and you find that many laws coincide with their religion. This behavior is often misunderstood and thought to be a violation of "church and state" but in reality it isn't. That is where the confusion exists--the lack of understanding how our republic form of government works. This is where people get really technical, especially the ACLU.

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