Deseret News | 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Am I Saved? | 10:45 a.m. March 1, 2008

I'm a Mormon, and I have declared that Jesus is the Christ and my Savior. I have said everything the Fundamentalists want me to say to be saved. In 30 years not one of them can explain to me why saying what they ask, to declare Christ is the Lord, keeps me as a Mormon from being a born again Christian. Can anyone explain that to me?

yet another part of the problem | 10:56 a.m. March 1, 2008

To "Another part of the problem-2:58, Feb. 28":
The way I see it, the main part of the problem is that none of you see God the way He really is. Why do you seem to believe that a God who loves all of His children would keep people who love each other apart simply because they joined the "wrong" church (or no church at all) here on earth after they passed through the veil and forgot everything they knew? A kind and loving Father would want all of His children to be happy, and I believe that He would also forgive them for their mistakes. Just be moral people and let everyone live their own lives. Think of how you parent your own children...will you cast some of them off for mistakes they've made, or will you forgive them, accept them, and teach them throughout their lives? God parents us in the same way.

Bob | 10:58 a.m. March 1, 2008

OK, so let me see if I understand this. Mormons think it is all just a semantic argument. We actually all agree deep down that faith and works are required for salvation, but we are stumbling around over words. Moreover, all that really matters is that we be good people, treat our fellowman well, and love God.

Well, if that is the case, then there is no advantage to being either a Mormon or an Evangelical Christian. So why do Mormons spend so much time and effort trying to convert everyone to their Church? It doesn't matter! You say so yourselves!

Comments continue below

Trevor | 12:32 p.m. March 1, 2008

Pay attention, class. Let's keep this very simple.

[Evangelical] Christians focus on Salvation.

Mormons focus on Exaltation.

Both agree that Salvation is Free, an unconditional gift from God. You cannot earn it. You just have to "accept" it.

Evangelicals show God their gratitude for their salvation by doing Godly works (God working in them).

Mormons fail to do Godly works because they are trying to climb the ladder to exaltaion where they can become Gods.

Simple.

Texas Y'all!! | 1:08 p.m. March 1, 2008

Last night I was privildged to hear President PAcker speak to a bunch of devoted seminary teachers. one thing he said that was incredible was that when other churches decide we are Christian that we need only worry if Christ thinks we are Christian...for some reason that stuck with me, and all my angst at these so-called Christian chruches melted away. Let them call me a daughter of Satan....there is only one opinion that matters. How does the Savior think of me?

Alma | 1:19 p.m. March 1, 2008

Mormons and Jews see salvation as a gardner caring for his crop. He must do all the work to prepare the soil, plant the seed, water, weed, etc., but only God can make the miricle of germination of the seed to grow to harvest.

Cade | 1:51 p.m. March 1, 2008

To Texas Y'all!! | 1:08 p.m.,

In my experience, Church Education System teachers (seminary and institute) are the main source of misinformation about both LDS doctrine and Evangelical Christianity (and every other religion) in the entire Church! I cannot count the number of false teachings I can trace directly to a seminary or institute teacher!

CAN'T JOIN HEARTS ? | 1:59 p.m. March 1, 2008

That's not true - We attend a Bible Teaching non-denominational church, and some of our DEAREST CLOSEST friends are LDS. We have some doctrinal issues that TRULEY don't come between our hearts. I know how sincere my love and respect is for them, and I'm confident they feel the same way. . . . . . . . JESUS said "LOVE EVERYONE" . . . for those of you who cant find a common ground, GET OVER YOURSELVES, swallow your pride, you're missing out on some wonderful friendships!

Al | 3:37 p.m. March 1, 2008

I have been following this discussion for days and I think there is one idea that most everyone is missing. When all is said and done what really will mater is how your faith, works, sins, attitudes, etc., have affected you! What I mean is who or what have you become? What is in your heart? Do you truly love God and your neighbor as your self? Have you really lost your desire to commit sin? Or are you just faking it, assuming that Christ will forgive you for everything so it doesnï¿½t matter what you do. Eat, drink and be merry. Cheat your neighbor, kick the dog, steal beer, cheat on you taxes, smoke pot, have sex with anyone who will let you, yell at your wife. You get the idea. I am afraid many Christens are being a little naï¿½ve about being ï¿½Savedï¿½.

Saved Christian to Mormon | 8:28 p.m. March 1, 2008

I still thing the Baptists got the Gospel with music down. Thank Jesus for Gladys Knight seeing the light of the Gospel of Christ and bringing her Gospel singing to the Mormons. It is truly a major evolution of worship. We need more Baptists in our church!

Saved Christian to Mormon | 8:44 p.m. March 1, 2008

An interesting article in today's NW Arkansas Democrat about why the Protestants and Evangelical churches experience such a high degree of disloyalty from its members thence a negative growth over the last few years. I agree with the author that there is too much contention over liberal matters. One cleric's opinion was that people see church like businesses competing for members and only those who aggressively market, placating to what the people want will win. I wish God's will of salvation was their focus instead of gaining members and feeling jealous of how the Mormon numbers continue to soar.

saved by His grace | 3:42 a.m. March 2, 2008

"
Minnesota Prayer | 8:45 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
As a mormon I don't get it. Pastor Joel Osteen tells me all I have to say is this short prayer and if I say it.... Can some one please explain that to me."

As a Baptist (and not a follower of the 'Name it and Claim it theology that Osteen and the like 'preach'), I will be glad to explain it to you.
Turn to the Bible and read the scriptures concerning salvation. It is quite simple. Your good works cannot save you; if you are saved, good works are the fruit of that salvation. That is to say, if you believe you are born again, and the spirit does not manifest in your life, something is amiss. Good works are indeed a good thing, as they glorify Jesus Christ and serve as a living witness to His glory. However, without being 'born again', or 'saved', good works will get you nowhere. Scripture tells us that our most righteous works are as filthy rags before the Lord.

I would advise you to turn the TV off and open the Bible.

SparkyVA | 8:30 a.m. March 2, 2008

It is a good thing that God is more loving than we are. We stumble over the minutia, God judges the heart. What we learn in our religions only helps us to a lesser or greater degree to serve our savior and further his work on earth. I think we will be surprised on who all makes the grade of salvation. "For this is the greatest of all commandments, to love the Lord with all thy heart, and the second is like unto it: to love thy neighbor as thyself."

Hector Collector | 8:39 a.m. March 2, 2008

There are currently about 1200 active Christian sects in North America. Why so many? Because none of them can offer any proof that they are more "true" than the others. All religion is based on supernatural magic which cannot be proven or verified. That simple fact is why I have abandoned all religion. Before I commit my time, energy and money to something I want proof that it is true. No religion can provide me with that proof.

Financial planners say that 80% of people reach retirement age without adequate savings for their retirement years. Most religions want 10% or more of the person's income as the cost of membership in good standing. If instead of giving that money to a religion a person would put the money into an IRA, then by age 65 the IRA would be worth $500,000 and that would provide a comfortable retirement. Which would you rather have -- enough money for a comfortable retirement or a box of tithing receipts?

Anonymous | 9:36 a.m. March 2, 2008

Gladys Knight?! I'm not seeing any Gladys Knight influence in the Church's music! Sacrament meetings are just as boring as ever, with the same old "hymns of the Restoration" (you have to say that with a somber, Boyd K. Packer tone!).

Oh, what I wouldn't give for something from Gladys Knight (and maybe even the Pips) in Sacrament Meeting! Wake me when it happens. Until then, I will be sleeping... and dreaming of being a Baptist!

Re: Hector Collector | 11:37 a.m. March 2, 2008

Sounds like you're looking for some type of a sign to provide proof of your worship. The scriptures are plain and simple of this type of request of God. Even if you were given proof, you would still NOT believe.

One day you will find that there is indeed a God and he does love all of his children. He has provided a way for us to be reunited with him again once this life is over.

Interesting that 1200 sects of Christianity exist, yet their is only ONE Bible. Someone has to have the truth...we all can't be right can we?

I understand your comment of financial reliance, yet if we believe that all we have came from God anyway, giving him back 10% is not too much to ask.

Franklin P. | 12:41 p.m. March 2, 2008

Hector brings up an excellent point. Mormons versus Evangelicals is not just about grace versus works doctrines. Clearly the paying of tithing is an essential part of Mormon "works". You cannot have a temple recommend or be a member in good standing without paying the required tithing fee. Hence, your exaltation is at risk.

What is the equivalent of "tithing" in Evangelical groups? Is there any membership "standing" implications for NOT paying money to the Church?

If so, then Evangelicals are no different than Mormons - a business. If not, then that is a significant difference.

new testament reader | 3:07 p.m. March 2, 2008

I like to follow the new testament for a guide to my religion. It is not complete in todays world, however, it is my guide to what Christ really did while here on the earth. I have found the church which Christ established in the beginning of HIS ministry and I am greatful that it is not just fragments or distortions of it.

Marie | 8:13 p.m. March 2, 2008

When Jesus was hanging on the cross he said "Forgive them Father for they do not know what they do." Jesus also said Love your Neighbor as you love yourself. If everyone forgave and love their neighbor what a wonderful place we would live in.

Thanks Maj Mike W. | 7:13 a.m. March 3, 2008

Thanks Maj Mike W. for helping us keep things in perspectve! Thanks for your sacrifice to bring peace to a troubled region.

Words to an Extreme... | 8:26 a.m. March 3, 2008

Not that my observation is all that important, just something to think about in our world of information overload....It took Jerry all of 553 words to write this column, and so far, over 26,887 words to analyze it by almost 300 commenters. Wait a sec...I forgot to add my 55 additional words...Sorry about that!

Jen | 9:43 a.m. March 3, 2008

Thank you for your insights. My son-in-love is an evangelical Christian and this gave me a great insight into our relationship. Thank you!

Craig G. | 10:38 a.m. March 3, 2008

Trever stated

"Mormons fail to do Godly works because they are trying to climb the ladder to exaltaion where they can become Gods."

This is a misleading statement.

Although some Mormons may feel they are climbing the ladder of exaltation by their "righteouss" works-If they do they need to re-examine the doctrine.

The doctrine is To humble ourself before the Lord and admit our own nothingness and place our trust in Christ. Christ then lifts us up unto exaltation by his power-not our power.

The New Testament States. "He that he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. He that exalteth himself shall be abased."

Exaltation is a true principle but Christ Exalts us that our lives become better through his power.
True Saints/Christians desire to keep the commandments because they Love Christ and Christ works through them-motivating them to perform Godly works..i e. tithing, etc.-Not that paying tithing earns our exaltion but we pay it because we love keeping the commandments of God.

Jon | 10:54 a.m. March 3, 2008

I really enjoyed this article. Although the subject matter is serious, I think it's good not to take ourselves too seriously. That's why I liked the fun that Jerry Johston and his friend had in their conversation. Perhaps more understanding can come through more and more discussions such as these. Maybe not agreement, but understanding.

Abner Normal | 11:25 a.m. March 3, 2008

Over the past several years, wI have been hearing locally that LDS faithful want to be called Christian, and they are offended if you do not say they are Christian.
As a Christian.....this offends me....as much as it offends them when I do not label them as Christian.
To me...the main snag with me is the belief of who Christ is.
I have learned that LDS doctrine teaches that is simply elevated man, and a separate being from God.
The rest of the doctrinal differences and quirks are simply semantics....
I KNOW that Christ is God Himself made man...Emmanuel...God with us.
One question to the LDS faithful out thereï¿½.I don't believe in the doctrine of the Mormon church, and do not believe that modern day prophets exist....but I want to be called a Mormon because I believe in Christ...albeit a different Christ than Mormon doctrine teaches. Will you please call me a Mormon?

Since church attendance does not equal salvation,
I do believe that there are probably thousands of LDS faithful that are indeed Christians, however, the doctrine of the LDS church teaches a different Christ than He that saveth even me....Ab

Good | 11:26 a.m. March 3, 2008

I'm glad nobody got killed! But if you put a few of these bloggers together the results might be different.

To Abner Normal | 11:56 a.m. March 3, 2008

First off, I don't care if you believe me to be Christian or not. Thankfully, you won't be my judge. But, you see, I'm not asking to call myself Presbyterian, or Baptist, or Lutheran, or Catholic, or Non-Denominational, etc. Just like Baptists don't claim to be Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholic, etc. Feel free to go on from there. That's where your argument is faulty. Now, you most likely belong to a certain religion. Most likely, you don't believe most of the stuff Catholic's and Lutheran's believe, but yet you take no offense when they call themselve's Christian. Seems like a double standard.

As far as the different Christ, this is where even I miss the point of the article, for I choose to point out a few things. Even in your creed, which contradicts itself like crazy, Christ is the only "begotten" son of the Father. What is "begotten," if not just another word for created? And doesn't your creed state that Christ is "fully human," ie a man? And doesn't your creed state that your God is without substance, ie He doesn't exist?

I could go on, until I realize I'm having too much fun, which must be a sin.

Doing what makes sense | 1:30 p.m. March 3, 2008

If it doesn't matter what you believe or do because everyone's a sinner and all you have to do is confess Jesus is Christ then he forgives you, you have no cause to be moral, to respect yourself or your fellow man.

That doesn't make sense.

If you believe that Christ will judge you by how you act and what you know and how hard you try to know more, then you have a cause to learn how Christ wants you to behave and to be moral and respect yourself and your fellow man.

That does make sense.

I'm LDS and I don't think I'm going to be handed salvation on a silver platter. I've made mistakes that I can't pay for. But I know of someone (Jesus Christ) who will pay for them and I've covenanted with him to do so. That covenant says he'll pay for my sins if I do what he asks me to.

And I'm trying to do what he asks me to cause that makes sense!

Abner Normal | 2:14 p.m. March 3, 2008

The Bible does not say....Thou shalt be Lutheran, OR Thou shalt be Mormon!
The Bible says to Repent, and accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and thou shalt be saved!

Traditional Christianity teaches that Jesus was "fully human" AND "fully God." God became "as man" in Jesus, but was still wholly God....keeping His power "in check."

......IF the differences in who God is and where God came from...and in turn, who Jesus is, and where He came from....do not matter, then yes....Mormon's are as Christian as the traditional believers.

.....IF those differences do matter, (and I believe that the differences matter!) then Mormonism teaches a different Christ and as such cannot be called Christians with the same definition as traditional Christians.

Catholics, Lutherans, Nazarenes, Baptists, Presbyterians, and a lot of non-denoms, profess the same traditional Christ. The only difference is the semantics of other doctrines.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Abner Normal | 2:40 p.m. March 3, 2008

To Doing...:

It does matter what we believe.....I will be judged on my belief. My sinful actions will be forgiven because of my faith in Him.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

.....

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Re: Brock | 3:13 p.m. March 3, 2008

Iï¿½m guessing youï¿½re referring to Elder Hollandï¿½s scriptural account of the Trinity as opposed to your partially scriptural and partially ancient creeds version of the Trinity. Of course you must admit that according to your beliefs, revelation and prophesy ended with the book of Revelations (Revelations 22:18-19) and therefore the inventors of those ancient creeds where left to their own personal (and possibly wrong) interpretation. Oh, and I don't want to forget to congratulate you on your degree in Theology. You should be so proud of yourself for being so much more educated than the rest of us.

2 sides 2 every story | 3:43 p.m. March 3, 2008

It all comes down to-- LIVE AND LET LIVE!

my my there they go again | 4:09 p.m. March 3, 2008

the christians stoning each other...like the good bloggers said examine your own self first then worry about who's right.It's real simple and I think the creator wanted it that way..but we take something and tear it all apart ..have been doing forever. That's why I choose to let you believe how you want to believe and i love you for it no matter who. I hope you do.

Brock | 4:24 p.m. March 3, 2008

Once again, putting words in your opposition's mouths is bad form, but commonplace for Mormons.

No, according to Catholic and Orthodox Christian beliefs, "revelation" has NOT ceased with the Book of Revelation. And, No, the Creeds were NOT "left to their own personal (and possibly wrong) interpretation" anymore than the LDS prophets have been left to their own interpretations when trying to, for example, refuse the priesthood to blacks for over a century.

Your sarcasm is appalling. I am surprised your comment was allowed to be posted. But then again, the person filtering these comments is employed by the same Church. Let's hope they at least have the decency to give a fair hearing once in a while.

To: Re: Brock | 6:02 p.m. March 3, 2008

Whoever wrote to Re: Brock, can you tell me why "revelation" in the LDS Church stopped? All the leaders do now is publish "Official Declarations" but no revelations. The cessation of polygamy was not a revelation, it was a declaration. Extending the priesthood to blacks was not a revelation, it was a declaration.

Evangelicals have never believed that revelation was lost, so they never needed a "restoration", and they also don't need any official declarations. The spirit of God works in them to manifest their salvation and the grace of God. If you Mormons would take the time to listen and try to understand instead of being so defensive, you might see how hypocritical your criticisms of other religions are.

Hilton | 6:45 p.m. March 3, 2008

Elder Holland is NOT qualified to speak on Catholic doctrines or the history of the Catholic Church. For Mormons to get their information about Catholicism from him would be the same as getting your information about Mormonism from Ed Decker or the Tanners. Just as they have a conflict of interest in distorting the information about Mormon history and doctrine, so Holland has a conflict of interest in presenting information about Catholics, Evangelicals, or other Christian religions. Indeed, Decker and the Tanners may be MORE qualified than Holland because they have been Mormons previously, but Holland has never been a Catholic or Evangelical, nor has he had proper theological training in those traditions. Beware your sources.

Now now my fellow men | 7:14 p.m. March 3, 2008

I must admit to you my fine fellow friends that I am a very smug Mormon.

Please have a very pleasant evening. Enjoy your good reading.

A Catholic | 8:15 p.m. March 3, 2008

Why the satire........ aren't all mormons very smug and condensending? (I am guessing an AMEN from the non-believers). Thanks once again for Magnum PI in breaking this story or should we credit Perry Mason--Once again nice work D-News on really bridging a gap!!!

Saints & Sinners | 10:14 p.m. March 3, 2008

Well if I'm not mistaken Catholics are a bit smug as well. They do have that in common with the Mormons. I know Catholics are quite smug on confession every Thursday night. Perhaps Mormons should try having confessions on Wednesday night. It makes all the world of difference if you are a daily sinner.

ROBERT | 10:26 p.m. March 3, 2008

I would have to agree with "Abner Normal" That the God of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible. The Mormon God is an exalted man that grew up on another planet and achieved exaltation to Godhood and appointed God over this world by a counsel of Gods. Mormonism believes in a plurality of Gods even in their own Godhead. That God the Father is (a) God and the Son is (a) God and the Holy Ghost is (a) God which makes 3 Gods.

The God of the Bible is only one God and has always been God. The Bible says that Jehovah and Elohim is the same God (Exodus 6:3, Deut.6:4, Isaiah 9:6 & 43:10 & 44:8 to name a few).

The question is: Can you be saved by believing in false gods?

God's first commandment states, Thou shalt not have any gods before me.

Paul said in Romans 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man

re; Robert | 10:44 p.m. March 3, 2008

You forgot to add that Mormons believe that each and every individual in the Mormon church can also become a individual God if they have lived Mormonism to a perfect T here on earth. So plan on the universe being filled with Mormon Gods someday. So this means you and I are in deep dodo!

Why | 8:47 a.m. March 4, 2008

Are you in deep dodo? Yours and my God will always be our God, and though He's saddened that all you can dream about is lying on a beach somewhere all day every day for eternity while He serves you hand and foot, He is nevertheless loving and will give you what you want. And the icing on the cake? You'll never again have to see or hear from us Mormons, who, btw, are extremely grateful that we're only expected to strive for perfection. After all, we do believe in a just God who wouldn't expect more than we are capable of, only that we improve ourselves while in this life. For you and me, that might mean going from one talent to two talents. For somebody else who has been deeply blessed, it might mean going from five talents to ten talents. Only God and ourselves know our ability.

Clive | 9:36 a.m. March 4, 2008

I have studied LDS Theology, ethics, morality, etc. for almost half a century, and I have noticed something very revealing. Official LDS doctrine as published in talks, scriptures, etc. are always absolute and extreme. This opens the ideas up for criticism, and many take up the challenge. But when LDS people are pushed into a corner about official doctrine, policy, etc., they always resort to "softened" ideas like those expressed by several in this comment section: "Just live your life the best you can", or (Why|8:47a.m): "improve ourselves while in this life... only God and ourselves know our ability".

In other words, the extreme, absolute doctrines are controversial and impractical, and everybody really knows it. These "official" doctrines are what Evangelicals have a problem with, but it is obvious from these comments (and similar discussions I have been party to over half a century) that when we really think deeply about them, active, faithful LDS have problems with them, too! What keeps us going spiritually are not the absolute, extreme doctrines, but the common sense ones that are found not only among the LDS people, but among Evangelicals, Catholics, Baptists, as well as Sunnis, Sufis, and others!

Be Carefull | 10:08 a.m. March 4, 2008

As to what you claim as "Official LDS Doctrine." I know you meant to be sensible, but about the only time I hear our apostles get "extreme and absolute," is when they testify of the divinity of Christ. But other than that, I hear them focus a lot on how each and every one of us are blessed with different talents. That's the official doctrine that hasn't changed since the first church meeting was held on April 6, 1830. We're not expected to be perfect, but we are expected to continually improve ourselves through the teachings of Christ. That's the official doctrine taught over and over again. Nothing extreme there.

There are many, inside but mostly out, who like to paint corners, but that doesn't mean that's actually our doctrine.

An out-of-state smirk, CO | 1:57 p.m. March 4, 2008

How very amusing that such a tongue-in-cheek article like this one could spur such self-righteousness and unchristian arguing. Mr. Johnston is just trying to show that such banter is just that, banter. Arguing issues of the heart accomplishes nothing. Here's a thought for everyone. Focus on your relationship with Christ, follow him with your whole heart, and others will gain strength from your example.

Evan | 8:41 a.m. March 13, 2008

Coug in PA -

The greatest commandment is not to love our neighbors as ourselves. The greatest commandment is to the the Lord your God with everything you have and all that you are. Love your neighbor as yourself. Big difference. God is first and people are second.

Dustin M. | 1:47 a.m. March 17, 2008

I find it odd that the writer says the Evangelical is his friend but then goes onto misrepresent the faith by saying "Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do." This is a clear misunderstanding of the message. If you guys want to understand Evangelicals and communicate with them better, then you need to listen to what they say better. We, Evangelicals, fully agree with Paul when he says salvation by grace does NOT mean we can go on sinning (Rom. 6:1-2).

I also find it odd that some Mormons say Evangelicals are not acting Christlike by saying Mormons aren't Christian. Mormons say we're brazen as if that's a bad thing. But what about Christ? He was very brazen when he was talking to the Pharisees. He called them corrupted and hypocrites. He made it very clear they had distorted the doctrine given in the OT. So honestly, how should a Christlike person act with someone of another faith? I'm not in anyway condoning the insulting protesters that show up in Salt Lake City. I'm saying it IS Christlike to try to help others if they distort the Bible, even if that offends people.

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