Deseret News | 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Anonymous | 12:07 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.

Anonymous | 12:17 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Have you ever known someone who did such a great job living their life, that you wanted them living yours?

We simply need to back off and give others the space they need to find their own bliss.

Just me | 12:16 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

The bottom line is that if you have an open mind, don't join a church. If you believe in free speech, don't belong to a church. If your different, you can't belong to a church.

Comments continue below

Judge not lest ye be judged | 12:18 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I do not have a problem with evangelicals because they feel they are right and all other religions are wrong. I do have a problem with them trying to define what I believe in and trying to assign me to Hell where it is not their place to judge. Christ is my judge, I accepted him as a small child, I love him dearly. He knows my heart and my desires. I am living a good life and the reason I live a good life is because I feel the spirit more when I try to do whats right I am not trying to buy my way to Heaven that is ludicrous. When I sin I still know I am loved however I am moving further from him. Christ has said when you do it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. He was speaking of it as the good you do for others is done unto Christ but it can also mean by doing evil unto others you have done it unto him as well.

Anonymous | 12:26 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Refreshing aricle Jerry J. In Utah it is almost impossible to say that "I don't believe" and move on. The other party wants to keep badgering the witness.

Gerals Massey | 12:25 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

ï¿½They may find it difficultï¿½
Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority.ï¿½

one big problem | 12:45 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

One big problem we have getting along is the pure hypocrisy. Conversations between believers and non-believers are like Obama/Clinton debates with not-so-hidden agendas. When Hillary says, "I'm so honored to be on the stage with you" to Barack, you KNOW that's NOT what she's thinking.

Same way with most Mormons, even when they speak so nicely, you KNOW there's a hidden agenda.

Think for yourself | 1:16 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I think people need to practice religion in their own way and not have religion shoved down ones throat constantly. If it shoved down a personï¿½s throat continuously then it becomes quite depressing and the person is an unpleasant person to be around. No body likes to feel like a caged animal. I have always believed that it is a good idea for all people to express themselves to others in natural and genuine way and from the heart. Also people seem happier and not so PHONY when they have this ability to so. People have different brains and with quite different brain patterns for thinking about life. Some have it right and some have it wrong. People should always think for themselves and not care if someone else agrees with them or not. Many people are afraid of thinking for themselves and need some kind of leadership, because they do not know how to think for themselves. These kinds of people are the ones who are easily brained washed and usually end up in cults.

Thanks for the article. I thought it was a bit better than some I have read on religion.

Thanks Jerry | 1:31 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I look forward to your next installment of folksy dogma.

E Orem | 2:00 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I belong to the LDS faith and I have attended other churches- u name it and the Spirit that you feel and the truth and knowledge doesnt exist in those churches. I feel blessed to have the fullness of the gospel and to have a Prophet.

orion | 2:05 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Interesting how you religious-type guys are all alike:

"Unlike politics, in Christianity, his vote is the only one that counts, anyway."

Quite an exclusive club, isn't it to leave all the other masters of wisdom and love in the world out of your circle of exclusivity?

CAG | 2:36 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Hey Christian, I have a question.

What are the Ten Commandments to "Christians"? Are they suggestions that really don't matter? Doesn't the word commandment mean those items are required for going to heaven? That it is important to respect the Savior by doing our best. Realizing only through his sacrifice is being saved possible.

Help me understand. So as long as I confess I am a sinner and I am washed in the blood of the Savior I will be saved?
It sounds like you believe in no accountability. Rob a bank, cheat with the neighbors beautiful wife, Strip clubs, get away with anything possible, indulge in whatever feels good... it feels like that person doesn't respect the sacrifice of the Savior. It sounds like the commandments really don't matter squat! (the commandments are still part of the bible aren't they?)

BUg-OFf !!!! | 2:32 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I say BUG-OFF!!! Let people worship how they please and quit condemning others for their beliefs that are so different then yours! That goes for both Mormon, Evangelists-- and all other odd weird and strange religions out there. Just remember there are many people in this world who think differently then YOU! And remember! YOU do not own this world-- it entirely belongs to GOD... so be off and on your way now!

Anonymous | 2:35 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

"I want evangelicals who read this article to know Johnston doesn't speak for all Mormons. Some of us are decent people who respect our differences and won't distort your religious views for our own gain. This can't be said of Mr. Johnston yet every religion has its bad apples so please don't judge us based on our bad apples."

Wow! My opinion of Mormonism is pretty low, but my opinion of this Mormon is pretty high. I think he gets it.

Evangelicals, do not believe a church (any church), a prophet, GOOD WORKS, or anything else will save them. Salvation ONLY lies in the One and ONLY GOD Jesus Christ. That is what separates the two religions.

If you stop there however (and the bible doesnt) you also have it wrong: "faith without works is dead" No evangelical believes works do not matter.

Ralph | 2:37 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Nice try, but your column only shows how little you understand evangelical Christians. That includes a LOT of groups, each with their own take on the gospel in certain areas. Some are as exclusionary as you write, many are not.
Most of us consider Catholics and other Protestants as Christians; some of us even include Latter-day Saints.
;)
It's what's in your heart, bro.

Duff | 2:38 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Listening to two abrahamic religionists argue their iron aged, goat herding philosophies is hilarious. This is the 21st century and we should know better than to believe these moronic, simplistic, antiquated stories. "My made up religion is better than your made up religion!!!" Nyaa, nyaa!

For CAG | 2:55 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Hi CAG. Christians are not excused from not following God's commandments. If you meet someone who says that as a Christian they can do anything they want, then I would argue that they are not a Christian. The Bible says: It is by grace we are saved, not by Works, lest any man should boast." However, it is by one's RELATIONSHIP with Jesus that one does the works. That is the whole message of Christianity.

I suggest you study the bible and and also perhaps some writing of John Calvin and others and you will understand better. No Christian says the commandments really dont matter squat. However Jesus gave two commandments that fulfill ALL of the ten commandments and more. Do you know what they were?

To: E Orem | 2:57 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Interesting how we all see things differently. I am a life long Mormon and a few years back attended a born-again type church while visiting a friend. During the music or "praise" portion I - unexpectedly - was so overcome by the spirit that I could not stop crying for several minutes. I was actually very surprised and embarrassed but I could not deny what I felt. No I did not run out and join their Church but it did open a door in me allowing me to think differently. I realized that despite what I had been told my whole life the LDS Church does not have any kind of exclusivity to the spirit. I was freed that day to start thinking for myself and realized that almost everything I had done up to that point was first filtered through the lenses of what I had been told growing up in the LDS Church. I am now free to pursue truth, service and happiness in the way that works for me as an individual rather than forcing myself into the often uncomfortable box demanded by Mormonism - or any other organization who claims to have the truth.

Great article! | 2:57 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

How about joining my church. I just made it up and it has nothing to do with Evangelistic or Mormons. It's called TO THE DEVIL WITH YOU ALL...if you do not join me and believe in me than to the devil you will go!

remay1 | 3:14 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

A man fell into a deep pit and utterly unable to get himself out, no matter how much "work" he did. He was lost unless someone (a savior) came along and offered him "help" (grace).

Fortunately a savior did appear. He saw the man's predicament man and had compassion for him. He tossed him a rope and offered to pull him out of the pit. (Salvation) The man deeply desired to be saved. He accepted his savior and his offer of the gift of salvation which was freely given. He knew that this savior was his only hope of salvation and accepted him completely, absolutely and without reservation.

It also occurred to him that the offer of salvation by the grace of tossing down the rope was completely useless to him unless he actually did something: grab on to the rope and hold tight(work). Without that action all the faith and belief was in vain (dead). He had to grab on (work) in order to make the help (grace) useful.

Seems simple to me: Salvation requires the efforts of at least two beings: you and your savior.

Robert May

Just thinking | 3:45 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

You know, I am a Christian. I came out of mormanism. I do not feel brazin at all. I am humbled, because God sent His son to die for me. It is true that I want to share salvation with you. It is also true that I don't think I need saving, only because Jesus has done that already. Now He asks only that I pick up my cross and follow Him. That's all about obedience, not out of fear for my life but out of love for my God. I do not resent your obedience, I admire it. What I struggle with is your disregaurd for the truth. You accept as scripture a book that has no evidence supporting it as a historical document, and discount the one that does. I also struggle with the concept that a prophet is not responsible for his teachings.

Robert | 3:52 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I enjoyed the light, humorous touch of the author! Bravo!

More of us should learn the fine art of friendly disagreement. There are too many thin skins in the world.

Faye | 3:49 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

ALEX thanks, if you change your mind you are always welcome, it was Paul who started the gentil thing, he was a Jew also, I don't think he meant to lead the people away from Isreal he just didn't get it right on how to bring them into Isreal and now there is this great big mess of all these different lost religions fighting and calling here and there and not knowing where home is. Remember Jesus the Jew loves you and so will the Messiah. Just stay the course and be a good person and love your neighbor.

Lighter Touch | 4:09 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I just think it's worth saying:

If a Mormon is trying to shove their religion down your throat, they're not doing what the Church teaches.

If they come across as fake, they're not living what the Church teaches (what Christ teaches).

If they're hypocrites, same deal.

When drawing conclusions about a large group, no matter what kind of group it is, we should base those conclusions on those who most accurately represent that group. We may most easily take notice of the wackos or anomalies, but we have to recognize them for what they are.

To: to E Orem | 4:22 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

The Mormon Church has never taught they have a lock on the Holy Spirit!

Dead works | 4:36 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

If you believe that your works in this life don't matter to God, you had better be right!

Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

This is stupid.

From Another DN article | 4:47 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

This was in another article on religion today:

"You are the artist of your own life when it comes to religion," Miller says. "This enables people to be more thoughtful about what they perceive to be true and right rather than inheriting what passes down to them."

Indeed, if we've left our childhood traditions, if our children may leave ours, there is good reason to nurture what Wolfe calls "intolerance insurance."

Good advice.

This is worth sharing... | 4:56 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

A comment about Ellen Goodman's article today said this, and I thought it was worth repeating:

When The Dalai Lama was in Utah a few years back, I was struck by what he said:
"If any of this (Buddhism) makes any sense to you, good. But if not - forget it!"

No proselytism, no "our religion is better than yours," no judgemental behavior, no magic, no mumbo-jumbo or sanctimony.
When the student is ready - the teacher appears.

Lighten up! | 5:00 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I say to all-- Lighten up!!! Life is too short.

shadow | 6:51 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I always get a slight tingle of admiration for people who just KNOW! Oh, to be so sure!!! In the light of the world, your senses, your being, and full knowledge that you are merely a speck of dust... but yet you rise up to BELIEVE! You just KNOW that you are the center of God's reason for being. He only speaks to you. Personally. Kind of like basketball players praying before and after a game. God must watch a lot of basketball...

Has anyone ever thought that if you were born somewhere else, say Berlin, or in Biisk, or Udorn Thani, or Melbourne, that you would be a very firm believer in... what ever it was that your culture and your family told you was true? Of course you would.

It takes guts to tell others how TRUE things are when you realize that but for the grace of God goes you.

The Shadow Knows.

What? | 8:05 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

All i have to say is---- HUH?

shadow says... | 8:19 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

"Has anyone ever thought that if you were born somewhere else, say Berlin, or in Biisk, or Udorn Thani, or Melbourne, that you would be a very firm believer in... what ever it was that your culture and your family told you was true? Of course you would."

Very true, unless you decided to switch. And according to a recent survey, there seems to be a LOT of switching going on.

And I'm ABSOLUTELY SURE that God watches a LOT of basketball! Don't we all?

Arizona comment | 8:25 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

The good reverand from Erie is right. And no Latter-day Saint has EVER believed or been taught that his/her works alone will achieve salvation without the intervention of the Savior. The frustration of members of the LDS church is that no one will allow our legitimate take on the scriptures. We need to be allies, not adversaries.

Re: Shadow who knows.... | 8:50 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Hey Shadow!
Why do you keep repeating yourself. I know the shadow knows so could please clue me in? Some of what you say like..

"Has anyone ever thought that if you were born somewhere else, say Berlin, or in Biisk, or Udorn Thani, or Melbourne, that you would be a very firm believer in... what ever it was that your culture and your family told you was true? Of course you would."

Well I suppose you are correct on saying that but,I don't know about God watching us like an amusement game--that would be scary!

So hard to get along? | 9:18 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

As Jerry pointed out "blessed are the peacemakers."
Life is too short to spend arguing. But most churches I've known seem to be trees that bear copious quantities of embittered fruit.

Raymond Takashi Swenson | 9:54 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Not all Evangelical Christians believe the same things about "works". The important thing to remember is that many Evangelicals embrace the doctrines taught by Calvin, including that men do NOT have free will, that God alone determines who is saved and who is not, that if he chooses us to be saved we cannot resist (no free will!), and if we do anything good, we obviously do so only because God willed it, not us. Other evangelicals (often called Arminians) place more emphasis on free choice as an element in the process of salvation, but that is a minority view. The REAL source of misunderstanding on the issue of grace vs. works is that so many Evangelicals don't think we ultimately control our works! Many Evangelicals criticize the assertion that works AFTER expressing faith in Christ and being "born again" do not affect salvation. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and James Dobson and James McDonald (Gospel According to Jesus) and others call it "cheap grace", and they insist that if Christians are NOT performing good works, then they have NOT accepted Christ as Savior. A lot of Christians have the same problem we do with the "I'm saved no matter what" crowd.

ROBERT | 10:05 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

To "Anonymous 10:57am Feb 29" WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING A GOOD PERSON?

The Bible says in Romans 3:10 that there is none righteous, no, not one. And Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 that there is no one good but God.

Have you ever lied?
Have you ever stolen something?
Have you ever lusted after a woman in your heart?
Have you ever used God's name as a cuss word?

According to God's standards, the Ten Commandments, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemer and adulterer at heart.

I think if everyone was honest with themselves they would have a hard time calling themselves good.

If God judges you by His standard, would you be innocent or guilty?

If God is a just God, would He just let you go without paying for breaking His laws?

If you were to die today, would you go to heaven or hell?

Revelation 21:8 says ALL unbelievers, abominable, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and ALL liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.

Keith | 10:21 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

As a Utah Christian(most likely "evangelical" by the Mormon definition, although I don't think of myself in these terms)I would like to give a shot at responding to the statement that "evangelicals tell people they don't need to do anything". I truly believe that I can do nothing to earn God's grace, as described in the oft quoted verse, Ephesians 2:8 and 9 "it is by grace you have been saved, through faithï¿½and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godï¿½ 9not by works, so that no one can boast". I do, however, think that too many people fail to read on to the next verse "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In other words, I will behave like a christian, not because I believe I can earn any points with God, but because of my gratitude towards Christ for saving me. It is this, that causes me to behave like a christian. It's like the movie Saving Private Ryan. He could never earn what they did for him, but their sacrifice had a lasting, positive influence on his behavior.

Keith | 10:50 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I had another thought reading through all these comments. One thing that I fear is that people are so wrapped up in "deciding who has the truth" that they conclude that nobody has it, and that everyone's personal opinion is the truth. This fallacy fails to recognize that there is an absolute and independant standard of truth that exists eternally and unchanging, regardless of my (or anyone else's) opinion. My prayer is that people will continue to seek this truth and not give up, just because so many shallow minded people claim that truth doesn't exist. Jesus claims that he is the truth-This is where the search begins, regardless of pop culture or public opinion.

JT | 11:45 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I'm LDS and don't disagree with anything Rev. John said, but that's the point of banter, oversimplifying the stance of the other. Politics is the same way. Democrats want to socialize everything. Republicans want to privatize everything. Well, there's more to it, but that's not the point of the article.

I too have never understood why I can accept Jesus Christ into my heart and believe Him to be my Savior, and praise Him and worship Him, but because I'm also LDS I'm still going to hell.

Maj Mike W. | 11:50 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Great article! As a LDS service member, sitting in Bosnia amid the destruction and chaos resulting from inter ethnic and religious hatred, this article was a refreshing reminder of how true "Christians" should treat others. Would I be away from my family for six months if the Bosnians (Orthodox and Muslim) had followed this example? Probably not. Does hatred and bigotry displayed between people of faith demean their own actions? Yes. Can we agree to disagree without name calling or passing judgment? Yes. Bottom line - live your lives so that you are unashamed to be called a Mormon, or Evangelical, let the "fruits" of your life talk for you, and then leave it to God to make the final judgment.

Fray Jumper | 12:55 a.m. March 1, 2008

I'm LDS, and have a Baptist friend, business associate, and we go to lunch quite often. About once a month we bring up religion. Me- Why do you think I'm going to hell, when you know for a fact that I'm a good person?

Him- It doesn't matter if your a good person. It only matters if you've been saved.

Me- Well, I was baptised.

Him- That doesn't count.

Me- Well, I don't think you're going to hell, I just think your resurrection won't be as bright as you've hoped.

Him- I still think you're going to hell.

And then we talk about our kids and how they're doing.

angelino | 5:57 a.m. March 1, 2008

The title of your article should read,"Mormon takes on smug and brazin Evangelical."

Chad | 7:09 a.m. March 1, 2008

The Mormon idea of "works" is all about obedience to the commandments of God. And yet they have this strange twist in their theology. They believe in "opposition in all things" so that you cannot understand or appreciate righteousness unless you SIN first! How do they put it? You have to "taste the bitter in order to appreciate the sweet." With this doctrine in hand, they honor Eve for disobeying God's commandment: "Thou shalt NOT partake of the fruit..." They honor Eve for being smart enough to know that she was actually SUPPOSED to partake of the fruit. So Mormons go around "tasting the bitter" so they can better understand the good based on this strange metaphysical doctrine. To put it another way, the FIRST WORKS a Mormon must DO is to SIN so that they can be FORGIVEN and make the atonement effectual in their lives. Isn't that wierd? You can't be saved unless you perform righteous WORKS, but you can't even comprehend what righteous works are unless you perform SINFUL works, so they SIN and then REPENT in order to earn their way to Godhood - EXPERIENCE Matters!

Gideon Hill | 7:55 a.m. March 1, 2008

What a tremendously insightful observation on the "faith vs. works" debate.

I spent 1975 to 1977 in Mississippi and Louisiana on an LDS mission. I engaged in the faith vs. works discussion more times than I care to count. It left such a permanent "scar on my psyche" that whenever the topic comes up in a conversation, I just quietly excuse myself from the discussion. I am pretty sure where the discussion will end up. After a tedious, and pretty much predictable, canned debate of indeterminate length, a draw will be declared with neither side changed one whit in their convictions. (NB: the "scar on my psyche" is probably just a tad hyperbolic)

In short, I have felt since my mission days that the last intelligent word was spoken on the topic long agoï¿½probably during New Testament times. It seems unlikely that the argument will be reconciled. Hopefully. [Honestly, I can't imagine that I will enjoy the hereafter if this annoying debate continues throughout the eternities! ;-) ]

That is why I am so impressed with this analysis. It brings something new to the issue--an understanding of the question underlying the debate.

Double Entendre Adjectives | 8:17 a.m. March 1, 2008

As I have read and re-read Jerry Johnson's marvelous article and waded (literally) through the almost 250 mostly well thought-out and insightful responses, I have been struck by one thought....

The adjectives used to describe the two adversaries (who have far, far more in common than we will ever imagine) could easily fit both. As there is both a lot of smugness and a lot of brazen-ness from both sides.

And unfortunately a lot of it boils down to a matter of mere semantics-using slightly different interpretations and meanings for the same word.

There are a lot of mostly "good" children of our loving God on both sides and I am almost certain that He must view us all with a bit of irritation over our petty childlike squabbles over nothing.

We are all His children and He loves us all unconditionally. And we should all thank Him everyday for the gift of His Son Jesus Christ.

I for one am grateful to live in this great land where we can "squabble" together as we choose without worrying about someone from the other persuasion stapping on a belt of dynamite and walking into Albertsons.

Richard | 8:26 a.m. March 1, 2008

Brazen? No I think just plan mean. They do not have the corner on what defines "being saved" and what does "washed in the blood" mean anyway. . I think they set them selves up to be holier than tho and ware their 'being saved" on their shirt selves, Oh look at me "I'm saved" I rather doughty they did anything to cause the Lord to accept them except one day I professed. Oh wow. Now I can go about my life being self centered and not christen through out their lives. Go figure. Oh and what it is worth I an not Mormon.

JT | 8:58 a.m. March 1, 2008

The thing that drives me nuts about all this is that like Evangelicals, Mormons believe that we are saved by Grace as well. "We are saved by Grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO." We show our faith BY our works, not simply declare with our lips our personal relationship with Jesus and think we have a pass from that time forth...in my view all this debate over faith and works is a misunderstanding of how grace actually "works!"

Ruben | 9:27 a.m. March 1, 2008

In follow up to some of the other postings I too find it strange that all sides state how they love Jesus and desire to follow his example but rather than follow Jesus foot steps they take off on their own trail and purpose. Jesus and all his associates were Jews and Jesus's home and path is in Judisim, that is where the love and following of Jesus's example is found in the house of Isreal. Come home.

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