Deseret News | 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jew by birth | 8:32 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

"There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:9-18) So brother and sisters have it your way...but its not the way of God.

Ronald A. Young | 8:59 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Having Been Both. President Hinckley said " bring with you all that is good and see if we can add unto it" I miss the Music,. I love the Mormon Church, I can only sing some of the Music the more peppy stuff. I made a lot of adjustments for Church, Wife, Family, Cause, Myself. I remain a "Work In Progress" I am a sinner but I do not wallow in it as some fundamentalist do. Mormons are Christians and I feel insulted when someone says we are not. In its basic form Fundamentalism if very simple John 3:16 more or less covers it. Add, The Sermon On The Mount and some Letters from Paul for effect. Add. Revelation for shock and Awe and to Confound and Confuse, and you more or less got it. They are very Splintered and Fragmented some times over the silliest of things. One Mans Net Working is another mans Cult. Some spend large parts of a life time finding the Church or Pastor they like. We look up the Ward on the Net and get Meeting Times and Directions. Usually some one has already found us.

true patriot | 9:05 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The reason there are so many hypocrytical christians around. Is because most of the christian churches around are apostate or the falling away from truth. They bible teaches that we must repent of sins to be saved. Repent means a turning away of sins. The apostate churches teach that repent from sins means to ask forgiveness and we will continue to sin but we're covered under Grace. True repenting means being truely sorrorowfull and turning away from sin with the help of the holy spirit. Faith alone, is a false doctrine because it produces unrepentant false christians. Faith alone is not scriptural. Faith and the word alone are mentioned many times in the bible separately but are never mentioned together except to say James 2:24 (New International Version) You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. Faith alone is unscriptural because it produces people that think grace gives them a liscence to live a sinful lifestyle. Nonbelievers please do not judge christianity by the false christians that do not follow the bible nor the commandments.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 9:26 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I took a philosophy coarse, One of the question we were asked to ponder was could all that we know to be true be wrong. I answered yes because even though I have had whitnesses by the spirit I have been wrong a number of times. What if you were wrong and Mormons were right. Think of how you would feel. Now when Christ was asked which was the greatest commandment. He said Love God and Your fellowman. Rather than judging Mormons and saying they are going to hell why don't you do as Christ says and love your fellow man, it is not your place to judge, only Christ's.

Anonymous | 9:58 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

A southern Baptist preacher after he told me I was going to Hell yelled out to me, "Boy I bet you hate Baptists." I looked at him and laughed, "no I love them, 29 of them have joined the church." Boy did he get mad, but it made my day.

Anonymous | 9:58 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

To evangelicals, if someone accused you of being Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?

Anonymous | 10:12 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

To CRM, Amen Brother

Black Sheep | 10:19 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

You were brave to open this can of worms, and I am impressed that most of the comments that followed your article maintained the same decorum you describe in your piece. One of the interesting things I have noted is that, while to Evangelicals hell is a very real and present thing - and they are always trying to move away from it, it seems that LDS people rarely mention hell, and rather than moving away from it, tend to move toward something else.

thanks for the interesting piece.

Marie Devine | 10:40 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

That was sweet sparing between Mormon and Evangelical. I came to the Book of Mormon to see where I could show you the error of your ways. It was so full of the God of the Bible, I had no question about it.

Now I tell Mormons that I know that Jesus is the Son of God, Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet, and the Book of Mormon and the "Doctrines and Covenants" have the keys for establishing th Kingdom of God on earth, God has cross referenced prophets from many religions to prove His word, but NO religion treats God's word to their prophet as truth for our time. That is why we do not see greater power than Jesus.

When we see God bound to His word, for He cannot lie, we can worship Him in the Spirit of Truth, and be submitted to His word as though bowing before Him. Jesus came to "Magnify the law and make it honorable" Isaiah 42:21; "Add not nor diminish from My word" Deut. 4:2, All the law and prophets speak of blessing and cursing based on obedience. God's wisdom and promises should be our protection and our joy.

Thanks | 10:48 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I appreciate all our evangelical friends. I appreciate the fact that they feel they need to pray for me, and I hope they do. At least that will give them something to do since they donï¿½t believe they have to do anything else.

I'm With "100 People" | 10:50 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

"100 People", You're totally right. The meaning of this article was to prove that we can still get along even with our differences. What's the point of us telling each other we're going to hell? Let's just all take a chill pill. Religion is a very important topic and is very important to me, but the fact of the matter is that most non-Mormons don't want to hear anything more from the Mormons and vice versa. And you know what? That's okay! Cause our God, no matter which religion we are in, is a loving and just God. He will judge and I'm glad it's Him doing it cause I wouldn't like to be judged by Mormons or anyone else for that matter.

I think it's great that people truly deeply believe that their religion is true, whether it be in God, Buddha, Allah, or themselves. At least they believe in something. We just all need to keep doing what we know and believe is right and if we're doing what we're supposed to be doing things will work out, however way that is.

Rich | 10:53 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Most of my Protestant friends believe the following Mormon beliefs: As Jehovah of the Old Testament, Jesus created the earth. God the Father sent his Only Begotten Son to suffer and die for our sins. Jesus told us to pray to his father. To live with Jesus in heaven we must have faith in him. If we have faith, we will love and obey him (John 14). We must be righteous (Matt. 5). If we sin, we must repent and forsake our sins. Jesus condemned hypocrites and those who call others fools. He taught against praying in public to be seen of men. Men cannot be saved without faith and the grace of God after all they do. If we fall into sin after accepting Christ, we are worse off than we would have been without knowing him (2 Peter 2:20). Unfortunately, Protestants and Mormons often disagree over the meanings and connotations of words, and each group sometimes judges the other, a practice that Jesus condemned. How Christian would it be for me to question your faith in Christ or for you to question mine.

Sasha Bill | 11:24 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Long before I became a Mormon, I looked at the theology of the right wing fundamentalist Protestants and I rejected it. Their continual degrading and belittling of the individual, coupled with liberal doses of unexplained guilt, alienated me as an American and as a human being. Their doctrine of Original Sin - under which we are to blindly accept guilt without proof for the sins of an ancestor - contradicts the American concept of justice, wherein we are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Humility, for a Mormon, is being teachable. Humility, for a fundamentalist Protestant, is just feeling perpetually rotten about oneself.

UTmouser1 | 12:23 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I think I like this quote from Ghandi the best - "Intolerance betrays lack of faith in your own cause"

My daughter, who was 8, was stoned in Tennessee because she was a "Mormon". The mothers of 3 boys put them up to it. The mothers had been "nice" to my face and vicious behind my back. I was devistated because I couldn't imagine such hatred for a child. I am a convert to the LDS faith and know very well (I was a Baptist) the distain and fear that evangelicals view LDS members with but never have I ever considered them "evil". Instead, I remember they are children of the same Eternal Parent as I. Even Hitler had an opportunity to choose in this life whether to do good or evil. And he believed he was "saved".... it just didn't make it true. And Ghandi said it best..

Jill | 12:26 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

An earlier comment (was it Brad?) made a valid point:

"I agree with the comment made by Marvin J Ashton a few years ago, 'I wonder just how Christian it is to call someone Un-Christian'. We need to try to treat all people like our Savior would regardless of their faith."

I will add that calling someone a non-member has that same danger.

The truth shall set you free | 1:28 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

If all the "Christian" faiths have the true gospel, why do they devote so much time and energy lambasting other faiths. If you had the truth you should teach it. The people would then decide for themselves what is true. I see your lack of faith in your own beliefs coming out or you would forget about other's religion and concentrate on preaching your truth or would it not hold up under scrutiny. If I were Satan I would do exactly as your preachers are doing. I would teach them lies about the truth so the door is never open for the truth. Think about it. Why are you so afraid.

Jon | 4:43 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

You will make more sense conversing with a brick wall than you will with an evangelical who is out to save a mormon from the depths of hell. Many evangelicals spend great time and effort teaching the world that mormons are a cult and that they themselves are the only ones who know anything about Jesus Christ. If they really knew anything about Christ, they wouldn't knock any faith that is seriously working to better their lives and live the golden rule. Of course, effort doesn't count to them, just as long as you say you believe you are saved then everything is A.O.K. What a sham.

I think the true irony is that many evangelicals don't appreciate that Christ himself had to put up with this treatment by the "mainstream" religion of his day. The followers of Christ were a small minority in their nation and were considered to be A CULT! And these wayward Christians had to be brought back to the fold, come hell or high water (or murder).

a christian too | 6:17 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Ephesians 2:8,9. A gift is not a pay off. No amount of works can repay Him (Christ) for what He's done for me on the cross. I am saved first therefore, I work; I do not work to be saved.

Not all Mormons are true Mormons just as many who say they are Christians are true Christians and that is why we leave the judment to God.

Great Article | 6:31 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Isn't it amazing how most leaders of churches get along great and have meaningful discussions, when it is the members of faiths that get in all the arguments?

Anonymous | 7:54 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Let us soon hear the view of "a friend who runs an evangelical bookstore...in the heart of Mormon country"

To: Truth Sayer: | 8:11 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Good comments. There are some Mormons that believe that good works are the way to salvation but most believe in the actual doctrine taught by the Church and plainly taught in the Book of Mormon and the Bible that Salvation comes in and through Jesus Christ and from no other way.

To the Jew who said if Christ would come today which Church would He join? Christ would not join any Church - Christ will be King, Lord of Lords and we will all be grateful to be apart of His Kingdom.

Great article Jerry and good comments for the most part. A healthy discussion is always good if we keep it in perspective and can continue to love each other.

Rodney King | 8:40 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Can't we all just get along?

Alex | 8:38 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I think it is important that we differentiate between being judgmental and just sharing your views (and your disagreements). I don't think any evangelical who touts his religion as right and Mormon as wrong and going to hell is being mean spirited or judgmental, provided his objections to Mormon doctrine are based on doctrine that is actually held by members of the Church.

Likewise, we Mormons must be careful to share disagreements on doctrine based on what evangelicals actually believe. I like to believe that we do, in general, but then again, there will always be people all over the spectrum at different points of their learning. There will be misunderstanding. It is normal.

I think a lot of misunderstanding is not necessarily malevolent or even narrow-mindedness. There is just a learning curve that we go through to learn these things. There is no substitute for experience. I will grant that to my evangelical brethren and sisters as well.

PacNW | 8:43 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I love these articles because they are thought provoking. As you can see, several people have commented on aspects that they have enjoyed or found utterly offensive.

Obviously in a very small article, this is exactly what is meant to be done ... provoke some thought and even some ire.

I felt that the article was pleasant and even humorous. We do need to look at ourselves more often (no matter what religion) and ask ourselves how we are doing. Whether sinner and saved we can all be better people (more "Christ-like") and smile a bit more.

Come on ... it feels good. And it will make the next person feel better, as well.

Christian with a heart for LDS | 8:49 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

First of all I just want to say that Evangelicals aren't the first ones to who's wrong. Correct me if i'm wrong but Joseph Smith tought that all churches were wrong and appostate. So Before you start accusing us of saying that you are not christian look at your own history.

The Problemm that most chrisians have witht the LDS chrurch is that it uses the same words but means diferent things, such as, God, Jesus, Salvation etc. It's not so much that we have a problem with the people it's the teaching. If you really look at what the church teaches about God and Jesus Christ you realize that they aren't the same people being talked about in the Bible, so either the eniterty of the bible and gospel message proclaimed in there is wrong and you need to get ridd of the Bible, or stop claiming to be christian. I have a friend the Just left the church because of this realization. Read Galations 1:6 and tell me what should be done with the Gospel of Joseph Smith.

Remember it is not about how good you are but how good he is that saves you.

JPB | 8:57 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I had an interesting dialogue with a minister who has a website devoted to educating those who are considering joining the LDS church. Most of us would feel some offense to this, but our interaction taught me something.

As mormons, we use christian as an adjective, and in that, are fine. But as a noun, the reference goes back to the Nicene creed where Christian was defined by, non other than, the belief in the characteristics of God and Jesus Christ. Interestingly, we don't believe in the Nicene Creed, nor its conclusions, and therefore by that definition cannot call ourselves Christians.

I would still say we strive to emulate Christ's teachings, and live a Christ-like life, performing "christian service." But, by a very historic definition, they have a point. Most important, do all those semantics really matter in the end?

cbk | 9:00 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

For Evangelicals, Mormons are not christian. Since much of the Evengelical doctrine comes from the creeds that were dictated by the pagan sun god worshiper Constitine, Christianity for them seems to be the christianity set up by a people who changed what was taught in the new testiment, developing a new doctrine of Christ in the 300AD period, a doctrine which combined some of the Bible with pagan beliefs. Maybee people should start calling Evengelicals followers of Pagan Christianity.

Isreal | 9:22 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

To Truth Sayer, One must learn to distinguish between Jesus, a Jew who lived among us here on earth, and Christ our Lord yet to come to rein on earth. If they be one and the same, use your own judgement, but it you wish to be a part of Jesus's church: welcome to Judisim and share the love of Jesus for Isreal.

Kris in AL | 9:18 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I'm always amazed at how the "evangelicals" are so certain their specific way is correct when their "evangelicalism" is not the same within that particular part of "Christianity."

There are so many splinters within "evangelicalism" that there is no one set way of being an evangelical.

Who are they to criticize any other Christian denomination since they are not in agreement with themselves?

Tell your friend to read the Bib | 9:28 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

"As mormons, we use christian as an adjective, and in that, are fine. But as a noun, the reference goes back to the Nicene creed where Christian was defined by, non other than, the belief in the characteristics of God and Jesus Christ. Interestingly, we don't believe in the Nicene Creed, nor its conclusions, and therefore by that definition cannot call ourselves Christians...But, by a very historic definition, they have a point. Most important, do all those semantics really matter in the end?"

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying since the term Christian was used long before the Nicene Creed. In fact it is used in Acts 11, "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Then it is used again in Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16.

So it seems to me that your minister friend is not familiar with the Bible because as soon as I read your post I easily recalled that the Bible refers to the followers of Jesus Christ as "Christians."

non-believer | 9:51 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I found it amazing that evangelicals are accused of going out to save the world. Please. That is exactly what the Mormons are doing. I thought it was a good article. It held my attention which is more than I can say for most of the DN articles.

Let's face it evangelicals are not tolerant. Neither are Mormons especially in Utah. They live behind ZIONS CURTAIN and they prefer it. Don't be non-Mormon in a Mormon community. You will be hatin life.

MSM | 9:52 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

For CBK:

If you are going to recite church history make sure that you get it right. Constantine never did anything with the doctrine of the church, he just allowed for the church to practice in the open. it wasn't untill about 50 years after Constantine died. Even then it is mostly only the Roman Catholic Church that follows some of the "pagan" influances with in the doctrin. Jus tso you know evangelicals get their doctrin from the bible supported by the bible, it just so happens that the Bible does line up with the appostles creed.

Just all try and read the bible for what it says and nothing more and you will find the doctrines tought by the appostles and early church fathers.

A weak world | 9:55 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Very Interesting article. Enjoyed it!

You can be Evangelical or Mormon or whatever--Makes no difference to me. People can be bad or good it's your own choice. Religion just helps those who have a tendency to do bad and evil things to need that extra crutch to stay in line and keep standing up right. The rest of us are good enough that we don't need to rely on fairy-tails to keep us in line. We just stay good naturally with our inner strength, and with the trust and belief in God and praise God for life so wonderful.

Alex | 10:01 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

cbk:

"Maybee people should start calling Evengelicals followers of Pagan Christianity. "

I don't agree that we should start assigning labels. It is the golden rule here. Live and let live. Let's just share our message, set a good example, be a friend, follow our Lord, recieve His blessings, and leave them alone if they want us to. We should defend our beliefs and try to clear up misrepresentations when we must, but otherwise we should be harmless.

Don't get me wrong. I am as dyed in the wool, frothing at the mouth Mormon as they come. However, it is just not our religion to throw out epithets to other religious people.

To non-believer | 10:26 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I'm afraid you're wrong. I'm a non-Mormon in a Mormon community, and I LOVE life! The constant comparison makes me SOOOOOOO happy that I'm not.

Jello mold | 10:33 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

I think Evangelical and Mormons need to start recognizing that not everyone see things the same way that YOU want them to see things. It's not up to you! We all have minds and can use them without your nagging help. We are all Gods children rather you want to accept this or not? So try why not TRY to accept others who don't fit in your silly deformed molds.

Ironic | 10:50 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

What is interesting reading these...LDS believe just a few who lived on earth will qualify for ï¿½hellï¿½. "All Churches being wrong" is not a statement of condemnation. All will be judged fairly and end up where they are comfortable. Since many believe in the trinity...being in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom with the Jesus or the HG will be just fine. No eternal families to worry about...no hassle to "become like God"...they can just worship their God for eternity while Benny Hinn preaches. He's very entertaining! After a billion years of the same sameï¿½they can call Oral Roberts. After the next cadrillion years, maybe Billy Graham. Come to think of itï¿½Iï¿½m re-committing myself to celestial glory and eternal PROGRESSION!

Anonymous | 10:57 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

what's wrong with just being a good person? oh, i forgot....religions.

Faye | 11:13 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

The posting that if one loves Jesus and wishes to follow him then one should intergrate into the Jewish community is true. Jesus was a Jew, he lived his life as a Jew, his family and history is Jewish, he was comdemed and tried by Jews and sentenced and executed by Romans. He loved and died for the Jews and was buried a Jew by Jews he never indicated any other indent than to be a Jew. If he returns to earth he will return as a Jew. Joseph Smith was correct when he said there is only one true church of Jesus. It is Judisim. All the other churchs are social/political organizations using religion as their mantal and Jesus as their icon. But Judisim is the only true home of Jesus. Come home.

The Devil Knows you | 11:08 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Some of you on here are quite pathetic! I don't believe for one darn minute that just a simple few Mormons are going to hell. I believe many have already committed themselves to hell here on earth and by their own choice and actions... The same goes for Evangelistic people. It's all your own choice to sit around day after day and glorify yourselves, and make judges of yourselves, and without Gods permission. Shame on the lot of you!
The devil is familiar with your daily habits and he awaits your every move. He know who you are.

Honesty about LDS "works" | 11:24 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Whether you believe you are doing "works" BECAUSE you have been saved or as part of the formula TO BE saved probably makes no difference to God. Good works inevitably benefit the doer of the works and those who are postively affected by that service.

However, As a Mormon I would caution fellow members about one thing - are our works done out of a sense of guilt or requirement and if they are do they bring us and others the greatest benefit possible?

Unfortunately, much emphasis is placed in the LDS Church on hometeaching stats, callings, Word of Wisdom requirements, image of being an RM or marrying in the temple, etc. etc. I'm afraid this has created a unique LDS culture of appearance and guilt driven duty. We need to ask ourselves WHY we are doing what we are doing. If it is due to guilt, blind obedience, or image then I am not sure we are getting the benefits from pure service or works motivated soley by love or a desire to bring the atonement into our own and other's lives.

Do works because you love the Savior - not because you think you have to.

Dali Lama | 11:38 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

ï¿½no god, no religion, no organized system of faith, is better at dictating right and wrong than that compass we have in our heads and the instincts that are coded into our genes.ï¿½

Mark Twain | 11:47 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.

More Mark Twain | 11:42 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.

Just one more | 11:49 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Man is a marvelous curiosity . . . he thinks he is the Creator's pet . . . he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea.
--Mark Twain, Letters from the Earth

Donkey man | 11:44 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Re: Honest about L D S "works"

You are absolutely correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for your brilliant words. They were well needed! THANKS!

Socrates | 11:54 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

"I know that I don't know." That realization is greater than all the dogmatic testimonies where everyone is sure and everyone KNOWS that they have the one true truth.

Here's a thought | 11:49 a.m. Feb. 29, 2008

We can hate the religion without hating the religious.

Susan | 12:09 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

There are those who have a difficult time assuming responsibility for their own actions, or works, and blaming or crediting God or Satan is much easier than studying and accepting the true complexity of our universe and how we personally can affect it. Please try expanding your faith and your works. Try stepping outside both your Christian and your LDS boxes.

Alex | 12:11 p.m. Feb. 29, 2008

Faye:

I don't hear many people inviting others to come to Judaism. Though I can't come along with you, I respect your desire to gather the gentiles into the the covenant of Israel.

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