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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical
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Jimbo | 9:36 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
An interesting read and a well written article. We should remember that its
tone is quite light-hearted and in a short newspaper column, neither side is
going to be represented fairly--and this article understands that. It is full
of stereotypes on BOTH sides (and you don't need a theology degree [ooh,
impressive!] to understand that).
But can't we see what the point of the article is: It is possible for Mormons and Evangelicals to be amicable toward one another. This article is in no way a theological treatise, but rather a call for us all to be more understanding for each other. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Can't we even lay aside doctrine long enough to treat each other with respect?
So, for those of you (on BOTH sides) who wish only to bicker about the doctrine of the article, you completely missed the point. Read the article again, consider its genre, learn a bit from the obvious undeveloped stereotypes, but in the end see what the author meant you to see: there is a better way for Mormons and Evangelicals to relate to each other in civil and respectful ways. May God bless us all.
But can't we see what the point of the article is: It is possible for Mormons and Evangelicals to be amicable toward one another. This article is in no way a theological treatise, but rather a call for us all to be more understanding for each other. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Can't we even lay aside doctrine long enough to treat each other with respect?
So, for those of you (on BOTH sides) who wish only to bicker about the doctrine of the article, you completely missed the point. Read the article again, consider its genre, learn a bit from the obvious undeveloped stereotypes, but in the end see what the author meant you to see: there is a better way for Mormons and Evangelicals to relate to each other in civil and respectful ways. May God bless us all.
Good article Jerry!!! | 9:45 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To the anonymous writer who said, "Funny how evangelicals get to be the
ones who decide what a "Christian" is" I would answer,
"Well, they were here first."
The Mormons who were here first, have decided that the FLDS Mormons are NOT Mormons.
The first one who says something usually gets credit for the quote, not those who repeat it.
The Mormons who were here first, have decided that the FLDS Mormons are NOT Mormons.
The first one who says something usually gets credit for the quote, not those who repeat it.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 9:53 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Contention is of the devil! Please Deseret News stop printing articles that
will flood controversy and make Mormons in Utah a target for hatred. You are as
bad as the old Tribune that persecuted the saints.
To: Rev Erthein | 9:50 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Very well said. You commented that you found Jerry's understanding of
evangelicalism insufficient. Isn't that the very reason both sides have
such a hard time coming together?
This article was very well written and should win some award for it's writing alone. How it treated the subject of 2 devoutly religious people who lack sufficient understanding of each other's religions and yet remain civil and appreciative of each other is heart warming.
Being LDS I agree with a previous statement that we have reacted to the over reaction of Grace being everything and works being nothing to sometimes over emphasizing works to create a balance.
Any true Latter-Day Saint knows that we are saved by Grace and are nothing without the Savior.
Thanks Jerry - great article
This article was very well written and should win some award for it's writing alone. How it treated the subject of 2 devoutly religious people who lack sufficient understanding of each other's religions and yet remain civil and appreciative of each other is heart warming.
Being LDS I agree with a previous statement that we have reacted to the over reaction of Grace being everything and works being nothing to sometimes over emphasizing works to create a balance.
Any true Latter-Day Saint knows that we are saved by Grace and are nothing without the Savior.
Thanks Jerry - great article
Dr. German | 9:54 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Thomas | 9:27 a.m.
Your conciliatory tone is appreciated. Your oversimplifying the issues as merely �semantics,� however, is problematic. You make it seem as if we are speaking about the same thing, but using different words. That is not the case.
Both the LDS and the Reformed Theology concepts of grace and works can only be understood within the context of each of their entire theologies. LDS theology involves a �purpose of life� that is fundamentally different than that assumed in other Christian religions such as Reformed Theology.
In the LDS theology, the purpose of mortal existence is to prepare people to become Gods themselves (called exaltation). A such, grace and works must be understood within the context of that obviously MERIT-based system of beliefs (you EARN Godhood). Because Reformed Theology has no deific pretensions, grace and works are understood within a soteriological system of beliefs (i.e., focused on salvation, not exaltation).
Moreover, in the final analysis, the pretension to be in the Godhood apprenticeship program, whereas others are not, appears to other Christians as being the grossest violation of Christ�s injunction not to strive for mastery or superiority over others.
Your conciliatory tone is appreciated. Your oversimplifying the issues as merely �semantics,� however, is problematic. You make it seem as if we are speaking about the same thing, but using different words. That is not the case.
Both the LDS and the Reformed Theology concepts of grace and works can only be understood within the context of each of their entire theologies. LDS theology involves a �purpose of life� that is fundamentally different than that assumed in other Christian religions such as Reformed Theology.
In the LDS theology, the purpose of mortal existence is to prepare people to become Gods themselves (called exaltation). A such, grace and works must be understood within the context of that obviously MERIT-based system of beliefs (you EARN Godhood). Because Reformed Theology has no deific pretensions, grace and works are understood within a soteriological system of beliefs (i.e., focused on salvation, not exaltation).
Moreover, in the final analysis, the pretension to be in the Godhood apprenticeship program, whereas others are not, appears to other Christians as being the grossest violation of Christ�s injunction not to strive for mastery or superiority over others.
Rev. John Erthein, Erie, PA | 9:55 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Dear Thomas,
Just to be clear, I was not intending to single out LDS members as those who are trying to "win God's favor...by working hard enough." I think that is a unfortunate tendency in many churches, including some evangelical or fundamental churches ... just as it was in Jesus' day among some of the religious authorities.
Anyway I regret any misunderstanding my words caused. I was intending to better define evangelicalism and not put down the LDS church.
Just to be clear, I was not intending to single out LDS members as those who are trying to "win God's favor...by working hard enough." I think that is a unfortunate tendency in many churches, including some evangelical or fundamental churches ... just as it was in Jesus' day among some of the religious authorities.
Anyway I regret any misunderstanding my words caused. I was intending to better define evangelicalism and not put down the LDS church.
Henry Drummond | 10:10 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Nicely done!
It may be that "true believers" will never be able to "join hearts." Still they of all people should be good at looking into the heart and seeing good and not malice just because there is a difference of belief (or a lack of belief for that matter)
I have always been intrigued by the statement of St. Augustine: "I believe in order that I may understand." Step into the shoes of another true believer does help us understand and assume the worst.
I hope I will get to hear more of your conversations, so that I too can understand.
It may be that "true believers" will never be able to "join hearts." Still they of all people should be good at looking into the heart and seeing good and not malice just because there is a difference of belief (or a lack of belief for that matter)
I have always been intrigued by the statement of St. Augustine: "I believe in order that I may understand." Step into the shoes of another true believer does help us understand and assume the worst.
I hope I will get to hear more of your conversations, so that I too can understand.
To Anonymous Ostrich | 10:14 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Anonymous | 9:53 a.m.
No, contention is NOT of the devil. That is a belief that Mormons have conveniently invented so that they can avoid being challenged in their unholy doctrines. It is used as a weapon to attack others who are striving to have open dialog (you are "anti-mormon because you are "contending" and that is "of the devil")!
This amounts to burying your heads in the sand, and is one of the major reasons why there is strife between Mormons and Evangelical Christians.
Please try to learn something outside of your Gospel Doctrine class. There is much more out there if you are not afraid.
No, contention is NOT of the devil. That is a belief that Mormons have conveniently invented so that they can avoid being challenged in their unholy doctrines. It is used as a weapon to attack others who are striving to have open dialog (you are "anti-mormon because you are "contending" and that is "of the devil")!
This amounts to burying your heads in the sand, and is one of the major reasons why there is strife between Mormons and Evangelical Christians.
Please try to learn something outside of your Gospel Doctrine class. There is much more out there if you are not afraid.
"Paul's Jesus" | 10:22 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I learned on my own mission that "Paul's Jesus" can be understood
if the context of his comments are understood. Yes, Paul's writings
repeatedly emphasize the ineffectiveness of "works" in achieving
salvation. Read in context, however, it is obvious the "works" to
which Paul refers are the elaborate rituals, rules and laws of the Jewish law of
Moses.
Remember the time and circumstances of the church when Paul wrote his epistles. Many Jews had accepted Christ as the Messiah and joined the church. Yet they still believed adherence to the law of Moses and its rituals was a requirement for salvation. Paul, himself at one time a strict adherent to Mosaic law, understood the difficulty Jewish converts experienced in forsaking Mosaic law ritual. His epistles emphasized that the law of Moses need no longer be followed, and that Jewish converts should not attempt to enforce these laws and rituals as part of the new church.
Paul's writings are not meant to imply in any way that obedience to the laws and commandments given by Jesus are optional.
Remember the time and circumstances of the church when Paul wrote his epistles. Many Jews had accepted Christ as the Messiah and joined the church. Yet they still believed adherence to the law of Moses and its rituals was a requirement for salvation. Paul, himself at one time a strict adherent to Mosaic law, understood the difficulty Jewish converts experienced in forsaking Mosaic law ritual. His epistles emphasized that the law of Moses need no longer be followed, and that Jewish converts should not attempt to enforce these laws and rituals as part of the new church.
Paul's writings are not meant to imply in any way that obedience to the laws and commandments given by Jesus are optional.
BobP | 10:26 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I have been banned from a few anti-Mormon and evangelical blogs and websites.
Their arguments are weak and simplistic but they hang on to them so tightly that
they cease any real thought.
A number of years ago my wife was called as ward librarian and bulletin person. She had looked at some past bulletins which had a good pciture and could be bought in bulk. (Fold once and the picture is the front cover.)
She went to the Evangelical bookstore to buy some and since she had been told they were next to the anti-Mormon books, she went into the store and asked where the anti-Mormon books were and was taken there by the owner who thought he had landed a big one.
She bought 500 covers and left grinning with the comments that the covers were used in out Mormon meetings.
A number of years ago my wife was called as ward librarian and bulletin person. She had looked at some past bulletins which had a good pciture and could be bought in bulk. (Fold once and the picture is the front cover.)
She went to the Evangelical bookstore to buy some and since she had been told they were next to the anti-Mormon books, she went into the store and asked where the anti-Mormon books were and was taken there by the owner who thought he had landed a big one.
She bought 500 covers and left grinning with the comments that the covers were used in out Mormon meetings.
Town Heathan | 10:34 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Evangelical - LDS
Shiite - Sunni
Same problem...different religions.
Mine is better than yours....
Not that I have a solution other than condeming religious zelaots....
Shiite - Sunni
Same problem...different religions.
Mine is better than yours....
Not that I have a solution other than condeming religious zelaots....
Fredd | 10:34 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I've asked this before, If SLC Mormons object to FLDS being called Mormons
then isn't that the same as "Christians" objecting to LDS being
called Christian? My point is its nothing to get to steamed over. We all want
to own our labels. FYI, the idea that evangelical Christians believe they can
"say a little prayer" and be saved and then go out and behave any way
they want and still be saved is ludacris. If you really believe that is their
belief then talk to a Christian and get some knowledge. Just like LDS
don't believe you can put a good face on a bad heart and fool God. Give
each other some credit.
Carol | 10:40 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Dr. German,
Mormons do not see Godhood as being about mastery or domination over others. Agency is central to their theology and even God does not violate man's agency.
Godhood is about progression, becoming more and more righteous until all desire for evil is gone, and you have become perfected.
Man's realtionshuip to God is synonomous with a child's relationship to his parent's. Parenthood is not about power OVER smaller people. It is about love and teaching and helping the child become all he can be.
Mormons do not see Godhood as being about mastery or domination over others. Agency is central to their theology and even God does not violate man's agency.
Godhood is about progression, becoming more and more righteous until all desire for evil is gone, and you have become perfected.
Man's realtionshuip to God is synonomous with a child's relationship to his parent's. Parenthood is not about power OVER smaller people. It is about love and teaching and helping the child become all he can be.
Rick | 10:38 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
As a devout mormon I find it disturbing that so many of my fellow mormons
misunderstand the nature of Grace in our lives. If we look at James'
declaration that "Faith without works is dead" we can logically
conclude that "works without faith is dead" as well. If we are
"working" our way to Heaven, our efforts are in vain. Grace only works
in our lives as we love God by keeping His commandments. If we strive to be led
by the Spirit in our lives, we will be led to good works that we naturally give
credit to Christ's influence in our lives. Hence, "by their fruits ye
shall know them." Ultimately, we are obedient (faithful) because we have
been spiritually born of God and this is how we naturally show our love to Him
who saves
To Dr. German I would say that as far as our eternal progression is concerned, it isn't a merit systerm that you describe. It is more a spiritual tutelege that enables the faithful to "progress" as they follow the promptings of the Spirit as part of the personal commitment to take upon oneself the name of Christ.
To Dr. German I would say that as far as our eternal progression is concerned, it isn't a merit systerm that you describe. It is more a spiritual tutelege that enables the faithful to "progress" as they follow the promptings of the Spirit as part of the personal commitment to take upon oneself the name of Christ.
Parley | 10:46 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Henry Drummond | 10:10 a.m.,
In response to your desire to better understand, I will take the liberty of informing you that "St. Augustine is considered by Mormons to be part of the Greek corruption of the early Christian Church that apostatized. That is why the Mormon Church needed to be "restored". You will not get very far with Mormons by quoting from Augustine, Acquinas, or any philosopher in between.
You must also understand that this idea of The Great Apostasy" is also a CORE area of contention between Evangelicals and Mormons. The official doctrine of the Mormon Church is that Protestant (Reformed Theology) Churches are �all wrong� all their creeds were an abomination in [God�s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: �they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (see Joseph Smith History 1:19)
For this reason, it is disingenuous and deceptive for Mormons to take a conciliatory attitude toward Evangelicals, and to claim that we all believe in the same Jesus.
In response to your desire to better understand, I will take the liberty of informing you that "St. Augustine is considered by Mormons to be part of the Greek corruption of the early Christian Church that apostatized. That is why the Mormon Church needed to be "restored". You will not get very far with Mormons by quoting from Augustine, Acquinas, or any philosopher in between.
You must also understand that this idea of The Great Apostasy" is also a CORE area of contention between Evangelicals and Mormons. The official doctrine of the Mormon Church is that Protestant (Reformed Theology) Churches are �all wrong� all their creeds were an abomination in [God�s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: �they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (see Joseph Smith History 1:19)
For this reason, it is disingenuous and deceptive for Mormons to take a conciliatory attitude toward Evangelicals, and to claim that we all believe in the same Jesus.
Doesn't Matter | 10:50 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Who cares? All of you believe in one derivative or another of the same FAIRY
TALE.
Mixed Marriage | 10:56 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I've been married to a Baptist for six years. I've done everything I
can do to make myself accepted to his family, but I've come to realize that
it's all a waste of time. We recently announced that we're moving
back to Utah and you'd think I'd committed murder with the reaction we
got.
To "Christian" | 10:59 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Christian,
I whole heartedly agree with you that we GET to do good works. However, I have to disagree with you on the point of not having to do good works. It is a privledge and a blessing to get to do good works, but it is also a requirement. The real difference between "getting to" and "having to" is attitude. In either case we are performing our duty, but in the "getting to" case our attitude is such that we gain a lot more from it.
I whole heartedly agree with you that we GET to do good works. However, I have to disagree with you on the point of not having to do good works. It is a privledge and a blessing to get to do good works, but it is also a requirement. The real difference between "getting to" and "having to" is attitude. In either case we are performing our duty, but in the "getting to" case our attitude is such that we gain a lot more from it.
CRM | 11:00 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Great journalistic piece. Also some fairly adroit commentary. Grace and works,
and sin and repentance are foundational requisites to the understanding of
Christainity, but of greater importance is an understanding and accepting or not
accepting the following;
1) Was there a great apostasy or was there not?
2) Does creedal doctrine comprise much of what constitutes Catholicism and Protestantism today?
3) Is God capable of revealing himself to man?
4) Is God capable of revealing His continued word?
5) Has there been a restoration of all things today as things were in the ancient church?
6) Is it necessary to have linage authority to act in God's name rather than a degree in theology?
7) Is man's spirit both immortal and eternal?
This list could go on and on, thereby illustrating the significant differences between we "Mormons" and the rest of Christendom. That said, wouldn't it serve a wise purpose to simply agree that we are saved through the Lord's "mercy" and "judged" according to His "justice", and agree that we are all fighting a common enemy --- Lucifer!!
1) Was there a great apostasy or was there not?
2) Does creedal doctrine comprise much of what constitutes Catholicism and Protestantism today?
3) Is God capable of revealing himself to man?
4) Is God capable of revealing His continued word?
5) Has there been a restoration of all things today as things were in the ancient church?
6) Is it necessary to have linage authority to act in God's name rather than a degree in theology?
7) Is man's spirit both immortal and eternal?
This list could go on and on, thereby illustrating the significant differences between we "Mormons" and the rest of Christendom. That said, wouldn't it serve a wise purpose to simply agree that we are saved through the Lord's "mercy" and "judged" according to His "justice", and agree that we are all fighting a common enemy --- Lucifer!!
Dallasite | 10:57 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I loved this article. It's a great, light-hearted look at an
all-too-familiar discussion. Thanks!
I'm posting to request that Dr. Brock submit an article to the Deseret News for publication. I'd be interested to hear how he feels his views have been mischaracterized.
I'm posting to request that Dr. Brock submit an article to the Deseret News for publication. I'd be interested to hear how he feels his views have been mischaracterized.
Alan | 11:15 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Vintage Jerry Johnston. The Salt Lake Tribune's Robert Kirby and the
Deseret News's Johnston use different styles to write about Mormonism, but
they both promote common outlooks: love and respect for all of God's
children and a reminder to Mormons that they haven't cornered the market on
goodness. At the same time, Mormons are pretty descent folk. Thank you, Jerry,
and keep it up.
daveescaped | 11:28 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
As a Mormon, I thoroughly enjoyed the article. I hope it did not offend
Evangelicals. The author tried to be fair.
What I do find interesting is that we as Mormons do occassionally concern ourselves with whether or not we are "good". The gospels make clear that none is good but God. But I don't think we necessarily stray from Gospel teaching when we inisist we are "good". The interogotry "Are you a good person?" seems to imply that to respond "no" we would be saying that others should lock their doors and run and hide when we approach, else put themselves in mortal danger. That we are a person of constant sin. Do the LDs recognize that we are all sinners? I think so. we just aren't willing to label ourselves in a way that, to us, indicates we have never heard of the gospel, nor do we follow it. I don't find asking if we are "good" to be a clever Evangelical statement. it's more like an introduction to a dull debate of semantics. And it utterly misses the point that we are to strive to live as Christ lived, all the while knowing we will fail.
What I do find interesting is that we as Mormons do occassionally concern ourselves with whether or not we are "good". The gospels make clear that none is good but God. But I don't think we necessarily stray from Gospel teaching when we inisist we are "good". The interogotry "Are you a good person?" seems to imply that to respond "no" we would be saying that others should lock their doors and run and hide when we approach, else put themselves in mortal danger. That we are a person of constant sin. Do the LDs recognize that we are all sinners? I think so. we just aren't willing to label ourselves in a way that, to us, indicates we have never heard of the gospel, nor do we follow it. I don't find asking if we are "good" to be a clever Evangelical statement. it's more like an introduction to a dull debate of semantics. And it utterly misses the point that we are to strive to live as Christ lived, all the while knowing we will fail.
Huh? | 11:32 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I wonder if posters here could elucidate on what it says in the Bible said about
becoming joint-heirs with Christ? If one honestly looks at that Biblical
doctrine is it so impossible that Christians can achieve such an eternal
blessing through our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ? It is ridiculous
to believe that such an eternal ultimate can be achieved by wishful thinking.
Nowhere in any LDS theology or in the Bible do you find that any exalted being is going to trump Jesus Christ or the Father. Our Heavenly Father is a literal being that wants to ultimately bless and exalt all of His children that come unto Him. I would suggest that some need to start reading their Bible and actually believe it.
Finally the bias and sometimes outright hatred of LDS belief and people is an abhorrent, non-biblical tradition inspired by Lucifer and not Jesus Christ. The rage and ignorance in regards to the Book of Mormon is very telling because it supports and clarifies Biblical passages and yet it is largely rejected as heresy. Why should man limit God's ability to reveal more of His word to His children?
Nowhere in any LDS theology or in the Bible do you find that any exalted being is going to trump Jesus Christ or the Father. Our Heavenly Father is a literal being that wants to ultimately bless and exalt all of His children that come unto Him. I would suggest that some need to start reading their Bible and actually believe it.
Finally the bias and sometimes outright hatred of LDS belief and people is an abhorrent, non-biblical tradition inspired by Lucifer and not Jesus Christ. The rage and ignorance in regards to the Book of Mormon is very telling because it supports and clarifies Biblical passages and yet it is largely rejected as heresy. Why should man limit God's ability to reveal more of His word to His children?
Spanky | 11:31 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I really don't see much of a difference between mormons and evangelicals.
Both take on a mantle of righteousness and claim some God given right to save
your soul. Both claim to have the "true" religion that is the only way
to salvation. Both claim to speak for God. Both send out missionaries to gain
converts. Both have religious programs/commercials on television to try and sell
their religion. It's like the difference between your basic Ford and Chevy.
They look alike, they cost about the same, but neither works very well.
Howard | 11:29 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Am I good? That would depend on what is defined by "good." Am I good
to my mother, by treating her with respect and dignity? Does this make me good?
Or, does good mean: I am without sin? Good, how does one define
"good?"
Lee | 11:38 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Ryan
Sorry, but you did not get my point about my evagelical neighbor thinking it is their duty to save the unsaved. To my neighbor, who thinks I am unsaved, therefore she leaves pamplets and articles at my door, and leaves suttle hints and I must confess, I am in my 70's and joined the church at age 13, and this is the first time in my life anyone has implied I am not saved. At least the missionaries are called to do missionary work, but these neighbors are self appointed judges.
Sorry, but you did not get my point about my evagelical neighbor thinking it is their duty to save the unsaved. To my neighbor, who thinks I am unsaved, therefore she leaves pamplets and articles at my door, and leaves suttle hints and I must confess, I am in my 70's and joined the church at age 13, and this is the first time in my life anyone has implied I am not saved. At least the missionaries are called to do missionary work, but these neighbors are self appointed judges.
Robert | 11:45 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Mormons make a big deal of the restoration, but Jesus was a Jew so maybe it is
Isreal that needs to be restored to Judaism as Jesus never had any other church
other than the Jewish Temple. He was working to reform the Jews to better
behavior not to organize a new church. Maybe the LDS would do better to remane
their church the Restored Church of Paul that would make more sense.
re:Ernest T | 11:40 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Suppose we all get to heaven, and being heaven, there is no organized religion
with people converting.
Maybe they are both right.
Maybe they are both right.
Jerry sums it up.. | 11:44 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
"I'm sorry I can't support your religious myth, I have one of my
own."
From Thomas Paine | 11:47 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like
administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine--
Hurray Jimbo | 11:48 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Jimbo: I could not agree more with your comment.
It is amazing that the responses to this article are the clearest proof of the absolute truth of the article.
As Jimbo said: "for [ANY] who wish only to bicker about the doctrine of the article, you completely missed the point."
Anyone who espouses a "better than thou" attitude, regardless of what belief system you follow, will one day be sorely disappointed.
It is amazing that the responses to this article are the clearest proof of the absolute truth of the article.
As Jimbo said: "for [ANY] who wish only to bicker about the doctrine of the article, you completely missed the point."
Anyone who espouses a "better than thou" attitude, regardless of what belief system you follow, will one day be sorely disappointed.
Another perspective | 11:50 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Some people crave baseball -- I find this unfathomable -- but I can easily
understand
why a person could get excited about playing a bassoon. -Frank Zappa-
why a person could get excited about playing a bassoon. -Frank Zappa-
Interplay funny to them, not me | 12:00 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Robb: "I think the Mormon who found Jerry's comments offensive
completely missed the tone of the article. The conversation was presented as
light-hearted banter between two strongly religious people who know they
disagree and take good-humored potshots at one another."
I don't speak for either of them and they are free to do whatever they want but the article is still offensive. If it was "light-hearted" and between friends then Johnston should have kept it that way, between friends. I'm not good humoured and I don't know Johnston nor do I want to as a result of his article.
You believe, "Having a sense of humor about our points of disagreement can help us be friends and focus less on points of contention. I think that Savior would certainly approve of that." I don't agree with you and I would appreciate it if you will kindly keep your offensive comments to yourself and those who find them funny.
You insult me by saying, "And to my Mormon friend who found the article offensive, you'll be happier if you'll lighten up a little and not take things so literally." That is a cop-out. Like I noted their jesting was offensive.
I don't speak for either of them and they are free to do whatever they want but the article is still offensive. If it was "light-hearted" and between friends then Johnston should have kept it that way, between friends. I'm not good humoured and I don't know Johnston nor do I want to as a result of his article.
You believe, "Having a sense of humor about our points of disagreement can help us be friends and focus less on points of contention. I think that Savior would certainly approve of that." I don't agree with you and I would appreciate it if you will kindly keep your offensive comments to yourself and those who find them funny.
You insult me by saying, "And to my Mormon friend who found the article offensive, you'll be happier if you'll lighten up a little and not take things so literally." That is a cop-out. Like I noted their jesting was offensive.
shadow | 12:02 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Interesting piece. Unfortunately both parties are talking past each other. It
happens a lot. I saw it once in a restaurant where two Christian ministers were
too busy bragging about their church to listen to the other talk.
The Mormon should get out more and meet evangelicals that don't shout condemnation or do the confrontation act. Some evangelicals are soft and warm and fuzzy and effective in what they seek: souls for heaven. Mormons come across as wide range of actions and individuals. True: the boys on the door step do hinder openness by their actions.
Now pretend for a moment that there is an emergency: a fire, an attempted robbery, etc. Do these two stand a chance of cooperating to do the right thing?
Of course they do. But they do not like to admit it. If both could say a magic word and stop all of the meth being sold in Utah today, wouldn't they do it? Of course they would.
They have a lot in common, if only they will look.
The Shadow Knows.
The Mormon should get out more and meet evangelicals that don't shout condemnation or do the confrontation act. Some evangelicals are soft and warm and fuzzy and effective in what they seek: souls for heaven. Mormons come across as wide range of actions and individuals. True: the boys on the door step do hinder openness by their actions.
Now pretend for a moment that there is an emergency: a fire, an attempted robbery, etc. Do these two stand a chance of cooperating to do the right thing?
Of course they do. But they do not like to admit it. If both could say a magic word and stop all of the meth being sold in Utah today, wouldn't they do it? Of course they would.
They have a lot in common, if only they will look.
The Shadow Knows.
to objectors | 12:05 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I think the article and these comments are serving to point out common failings
of both mormons and evangelicals. As evangelicals rightly point out, it does
seem that us Mormons sometimes think we are 'earning' our way into
heaven. The truth as I understand it is that we should do our best to keep the
commandments, but because we are mortal and imperfect, we need to continually
repent, right up to and including on our deathbeds. Has any of us ever heard of
a prophet say as he was preparing to die, "I'm perfect now, ready for
heaven!"
For the evangelicals, while it may be true that, after accepting Christ and considering one's self saved, that that should lead one to good works, the perceived reality is that many evangelicals seem think, maybe not this bluntly, but "Ok, I'm saved now, good to go, doesn't matter what I do from here on out." This appears to lead them to a bit of, "I'm saved and you're not, so you're going to hell!"
A little more humility could help us all get along.
For the evangelicals, while it may be true that, after accepting Christ and considering one's self saved, that that should lead one to good works, the perceived reality is that many evangelicals seem think, maybe not this bluntly, but "Ok, I'm saved now, good to go, doesn't matter what I do from here on out." This appears to lead them to a bit of, "I'm saved and you're not, so you're going to hell!"
A little more humility could help us all get along.
Re: biblical differences | 12:10 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
�You do not need the bible to justify love, but no better
tool has been invented to justify hate.�
Mr Moto | 12:19 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
"God isn't concerned about religion." Anonymous
Victoria | 12:36 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Fun article. In my opinon, to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus as the Son
of God, the Creator of our world, the Jewish God of the Old Testament, the
Redeemer from death of all mankind, and the Savior of every individual who
accepts Him as such. Accepting Christ includes believing in Him, but as even the
devil believes, there is more. "Repent and be baptized" may be
considered "works" by some, but I see it as our part of receiving the
gift of forgiveness which he offers. There were many devout Jews at the time of
Christ who "prided" themselves on keeping all the commandments and yet
did not recognize their God, the One who gave those commandments, when He came
to them. Having good neighbors, teachers and leaders is a blessing! But being
and doing good doesn't make us Christian. However, any one who has gone
beyond believing in Jesus to actually accepting Him by repenting and striving to
follow Him, will inevitably find themselves doing "good works" ranging
from having regular personal prayer and scripture study to showing kindness,
love, and patience towards others. We are saved by Grace. "Works" just
naturally follow from love.
Just curious... | 12:39 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Does anyone know who said these quotes?
"I have always held to the thought that if you're not comfortable in your religion, then it's probably not your truth."
�Going to church doesn�t make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.�
�Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.�
"I have always held to the thought that if you're not comfortable in your religion, then it's probably not your truth."
�Going to church doesn�t make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.�
�Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian.�
Ryan Whaley | 12:48 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
To Lee, again,
All Christians feel like they have been "called" to "bring people to Christ." Mind you, their version of Christ. They are human like everyone else, and are probably judging you, just like many LDS people become self appointed judges. Both sides are not supposed to judge.
To AC,
I never said that you tried to disrespect people, simply, that you did disrespect people. Disrespect is in the eye of the disrespected. An evangelical doesn't think they are disrespecting you, they think their correcting you because you are disrespecing God. Yet, often times the LDS person FEELS disrespected. The evangelical disrespected you whether or not they tried. That being said, LDS missionaries disrespect peoples culture and religion every day. LDS people disrespect me, constantly. When I reply, I probably am disrespecting them in their opinion. Then they get to use me as an example in a Sunday school lesson on how disrespectful I was, when he was only tring to help my spiritual wellbeing. Do you see the trend here?
All Christians feel like they have been "called" to "bring people to Christ." Mind you, their version of Christ. They are human like everyone else, and are probably judging you, just like many LDS people become self appointed judges. Both sides are not supposed to judge.
To AC,
I never said that you tried to disrespect people, simply, that you did disrespect people. Disrespect is in the eye of the disrespected. An evangelical doesn't think they are disrespecting you, they think their correcting you because you are disrespecing God. Yet, often times the LDS person FEELS disrespected. The evangelical disrespected you whether or not they tried. That being said, LDS missionaries disrespect peoples culture and religion every day. LDS people disrespect me, constantly. When I reply, I probably am disrespecting them in their opinion. Then they get to use me as an example in a Sunday school lesson on how disrespectful I was, when he was only tring to help my spiritual wellbeing. Do you see the trend here?
Sam Harris | 12:49 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Either a person has good reasons for what he strongly believes or he does not.
Judgment Day | 12:55 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Thanx Jerry. Very appreciative of your excellent article as well as for the
many insightful comments from both viewpoints.
Take away some of our egos and long-held traditions from both sides and we discover that we have far more in common than we may ever acknowledge.
No doubt many from both sides will be surprised on Judgment Day when a loving God pulls us altogether under His wing and expresses His love and affection for each of us as His children.
Take away some of our egos and long-held traditions from both sides and we discover that we have far more in common than we may ever acknowledge.
No doubt many from both sides will be surprised on Judgment Day when a loving God pulls us altogether under His wing and expresses His love and affection for each of us as His children.
Robb | 12:58 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Re: "Interplay"
"I'm not good humoured and I don't know Johnston nor do I want to as a result of his article."
"I would appreciate it if you will kindly keep your offensive comments to yourself"
"You insult me by saying, "
It appears there is nothing I could say that would help you enjoy a more lighthearted approach to life. No doubt you find unintended offense in many places. Though this may offend you, you will be in my prayers.
(P.S. to Jerry, sorry for misspelling Johnston the first time).
"I'm not good humoured and I don't know Johnston nor do I want to as a result of his article."
"I would appreciate it if you will kindly keep your offensive comments to yourself"
"You insult me by saying, "
It appears there is nothing I could say that would help you enjoy a more lighthearted approach to life. No doubt you find unintended offense in many places. Though this may offend you, you will be in my prayers.
(P.S. to Jerry, sorry for misspelling Johnston the first time).
To understand "others" | 1:01 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Ask yourself, Why don't I believe in Ra? Why don't I believe in Zeus,
Thor, Odin, Apollo, Aphrodite, Quetzalcoatl, Vishnu, Loki, or any of the
hundreds of other ancient Gods that were once believed in by men? How did you
get to where you are?
In reality... | 12:59 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
The guys with the problem aren't the ones who believe in a god, but the
ones who think they're entitled to act like one.
Alex, part 1 | 1:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
This whole thing is a chicken or the egg issue. To me, evangelicals don't
really believe what they claim to. Hear me out on this one.
If good works follow those that believe, then evangelicals believe in salvation by faith and works, too�just like Mormons. Think about it. If the greatest evidence of my faith in Christ is my "getting" to be obedient, then in order for me to have proven to have been Christian after my profession of faith, don't I have to show that I have become a Christian? How can I know that I have become a Christian unless I produce the fruits of a Christian? How can I produce the fruits of a Christian without effort, without (there's that ugly word again) works? And if I am exerting effort to prove I'm a Christian, can I not now rightly be accused of trying to earn my salvation?
If good works follow those that believe, then evangelicals believe in salvation by faith and works, too�just like Mormons. Think about it. If the greatest evidence of my faith in Christ is my "getting" to be obedient, then in order for me to have proven to have been Christian after my profession of faith, don't I have to show that I have become a Christian? How can I know that I have become a Christian unless I produce the fruits of a Christian? How can I produce the fruits of a Christian without effort, without (there's that ugly word again) works? And if I am exerting effort to prove I'm a Christian, can I not now rightly be accused of trying to earn my salvation?
Craig L. Foster | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
I've often said that Mormons and evangelicals are so similar socially that
we are kind of like squabbling cousins. And yet, doctrinally we are worlds apart
and never shall the twain meet.
Just reading the comments demonstrates that point. The truth is, the Mormon Jesus and the evangelical Jesus are not the same -- and yet there is only one Jesus. So, both groups will continue to believe they represent the true Jesus and I guess only time will tell.
Congratulations Jerry Johnston on an excellent and insightful essay.
Just reading the comments demonstrates that point. The truth is, the Mormon Jesus and the evangelical Jesus are not the same -- and yet there is only one Jesus. So, both groups will continue to believe they represent the true Jesus and I guess only time will tell.
Congratulations Jerry Johnston on an excellent and insightful essay.
Alex, part 2 | 1:05 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
Now you may argue that Christ does the work through me. Fine, and I believe
that too. But did Christ�s grace ever require your time,
effort and choice? If it did (and I�ll bet a million
dollars that it did), congratulations, you have just tried to
�earn� your salvation. Apparently,
the works that you �got� to do are
actually works that Christ �required�
of you in the first place to show you are a Christian.
Timothy | 1:05 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008
If there is a God who will "judge" me for my actions in this life,
then I'll just have to tell him/her/it that, given the information
available, I did the best I could. If there isn't, then it doesn't
make much difference.
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I suspect many Mormons and many evangelicals are talking past each other on the issue of grace and works, and that many of our differences are semantical. You could say that Mormons are trying to "win God's favor...by working hard enough," or you could say that Mormons believe that true conversion produces a desire to do good works; ergo, if good works do not follow an alleged conversion, the conversion was incomplete.
I've heard evangelicals phrase the matter in a similar way.
Frankly, I've stopped being offended by evangelicals telling me I'm not "Christian." When they do, it's essentially an attempt on their part to establish superiority or power over me -- a plain violation of Christ's injunction not to strive for mastery over our fellows.
And anyway, the earliest disciples of Christ, including St. Stephen, weren't called "Christians" anyway; it was later, at Antioch, when the term was first used. What matters is a person's faith, not how some people classify him.