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Being a black student at BYU can be difficult
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Hispanic BYU grad | 11:47 a.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I can see how being "black" at BYU could be a challenge for some.... I
am a mormon in the south and I can assure you it is tougher being a mormon in
the bible belt than it is being a black at BYU. One is being a little different
and the other is being absolutley hated and ostrasized and knowing it on a
constant basis.
Kenya Mormon | 11:54 a.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Just because racism is pervasive in America is NO EXCUSE for the TRUE CHURCH OF
GOD to be racist or to have EVER BEEN racist.
But it WAS. The OFFICIAL POLICY AND DOCTRINE of the Church for over 100 years was RACIST.
That cannot be denied or explained away.
Our ONLY choice is to admit that the Church and its Leaders were WRONG about the racist policy and doctrines!
That is all there is to it. All your attempts at apologetics, explanation, and red herrings only go to show you are all STILL RACIST because you won't admit that the Church's racism was WRONG! You explain it away, or excuse it, or blame it on God.
Just admit it was WRONG and that the Church was WRONG. Just admit it!
But it WAS. The OFFICIAL POLICY AND DOCTRINE of the Church for over 100 years was RACIST.
That cannot be denied or explained away.
Our ONLY choice is to admit that the Church and its Leaders were WRONG about the racist policy and doctrines!
That is all there is to it. All your attempts at apologetics, explanation, and red herrings only go to show you are all STILL RACIST because you won't admit that the Church's racism was WRONG! You explain it away, or excuse it, or blame it on God.
Just admit it was WRONG and that the Church was WRONG. Just admit it!
Comments continue below
John Lambert | 11:58 a.m. Feb. 27, 2008
How can someone say there have not been black leaders in the church. There
has been a black general authority. There have been black Area Authority
Seventies. There was and may still be a black stake president in the Cherry
Hill New Jersey Stake. When I got back from my mission the high councilor
assigned to my ward that was almost all white, with some Asians and Hispanics
but no blacks above the age of 13, was black.
There was an Asian who served as an assitant to the twelve. It has been a long time since one could call the general authorities lilly white.
There was an Asian who served as an assitant to the twelve. It has been a long time since one could call the general authorities lilly white.
JD | 12:04 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
A previous comenter asked if a Church leader had ever repudiated the racial
theories had by those like Brigham Young. Aside from Bruce R. McConckie's
now famous CES talk, Elder Holland said the following to PBS: "One
clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated.
� I have to concede to my earlier colleagues.
� They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the
best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give
even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations
were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong.
�
It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters...But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. � At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed."
It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters...But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. � At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed."
? for Stan Zielinski | 12:01 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Stan,
If mormons are racist why do they allow people of all races to be endowed-meaning they are entitled to all the blessings of God, exaltation, etc. ? If a church offers its highest reward to you regardless of race, wouldn't that make them race-champions?
Love to hear your response.
If mormons are racist why do they allow people of all races to be endowed-meaning they are entitled to all the blessings of God, exaltation, etc. ? If a church offers its highest reward to you regardless of race, wouldn't that make them race-champions?
Love to hear your response.
John Lambert | 12:04 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
There are LDS Student Unions at many school and no one screams about that.
Also, I have known non-blacks in the Black Student Union. Stop trying to oppose
blacks having a home of their own.
Until most church members have had a black priesthood leader blacks will feel marginalized in the church. That day is still in the far distant future in much of Utah.
Until most church members have had a black priesthood leader blacks will feel marginalized in the church. That day is still in the far distant future in much of Utah.
Confused | 12:10 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
To all you Mormon bashers.
If you think you are so perfect are you not racist againist a religion?
Racism is taught from the youth, you want racist go to Southern Georgia. Where even today GOD FEARIN Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon and Catholic calls Blacks the N-word.
If you notice I showed all religions. My family came from this area, my mother taught me to NOT BE racist. In fact when I went back I would end up in fights defending black kids. What did I get in return? Racist comments from the kids I just defended.
I get tired of you bigots and racist bashing the church. You are no better than the ones that you accuse.
If you think you are so perfect are you not racist againist a religion?
Racism is taught from the youth, you want racist go to Southern Georgia. Where even today GOD FEARIN Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon and Catholic calls Blacks the N-word.
If you notice I showed all religions. My family came from this area, my mother taught me to NOT BE racist. In fact when I went back I would end up in fights defending black kids. What did I get in return? Racist comments from the kids I just defended.
I get tired of you bigots and racist bashing the church. You are no better than the ones that you accuse.
Let's Be Honest | 12:05 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
We can argue "doctrine" verus "practice" versus
"policy" versus "personal opinion" all day long. But the
FACT is that several leaders of the LDS Church including Apostles and Prophets
and several church publications taught that black skin is a curse and that the
curse was in part due to actions in the pre-existence (Church material quotes
are easy to find). We can put our head in the sand and say the racial history
just is not true but that really does not help anyone and only reflects poorly
on the Church when others find out we are either unaware of our own history or
are being dishonest. I appreciate that the church changed it's priesthood
policy and that leaders today exhort members to be open and accepting of all
races and cultures. But the elephant in the room is the inability to openly and
honestly tackle the teachings of the past and refute them as no longer the
thinking/teaching/doctrine of today. Inability to do that will continue to keep
people from joining the Church and drive them from it. True change also includes
addressing the reality of the past. And the Church has a VERY hard time with
that part.
EARTH | 12:10 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am black and live most of my life in Utah. Racism does exit in Utah and around
the World. I have neighbor who won't even say hello to me on Sunday on
their way to church because i am mowing my Lawn. Go figure. LISTEN UP PEPOLE,
RACISM, BIGOTRY AND HATE IS NOT CHRIST LIKE. IF YOU HARBOR ANY OF THESE FEELING,
YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. God said to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. To
the few people who believe that if you don't talk about racism it will go
away, What in the world are you smoking? All race have racism isssue. Let not
fool ourselves. Just live as close to Christ and you will be fine. Lets all
practice what we preach and this world will be a wonderful place to live.
Christy | 12:16 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
What a non-story! The Blacks say they are treated very well at BYU. So
what's the problem? Oh, maybe some people sometimes say rude things. Like
they do to all of us. The Deseret News has tried to make a story about
something that isn't a problem.
John Lambert | 12:15 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am not exactly sure why I am denounced as being a racist and false.
However I have to say BYU can not be false if the church is true. BYU has problems, but it tries to grow and reflect the church.
If it were not for BYU than where would people who want to do scholarly defences of the Book of Mormon practice. I can cite lots of other issues, like how the MTC would run without BYU. However I think we should not try to seperate the church from a institution it fully supports.
BYU is not infalible, and its leaders do make mistakes, and it may accept man-made standards too much, but to say it is false is just not justifiable.
Anyway, I do not see how such an attack relates to the article. The article is all about BYU attempting to reach out to minorities. Maybe there are those who feel more can be done, but no one denies that BYU tries.
However I have to say BYU can not be false if the church is true. BYU has problems, but it tries to grow and reflect the church.
If it were not for BYU than where would people who want to do scholarly defences of the Book of Mormon practice. I can cite lots of other issues, like how the MTC would run without BYU. However I think we should not try to seperate the church from a institution it fully supports.
BYU is not infalible, and its leaders do make mistakes, and it may accept man-made standards too much, but to say it is false is just not justifiable.
Anyway, I do not see how such an attack relates to the article. The article is all about BYU attempting to reach out to minorities. Maybe there are those who feel more can be done, but no one denies that BYU tries.
Chance | 12:31 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
There is not near as much racism as people LOVE to point out in teh LDS church.
If there is a bit of racism, it is where white and black come together like Utah
or at BYU. In the south, of even better in Africa where the church is concerned
and flourishing, racism is hardly heard of. It is as big a deal as we all make
of it. My vote is to continue to preach Christ and try to live as he wants us to
live. All else will either fall into place or not, regardless, racism will
either exist or not. It cannot be forced by a "civil rights" movement
or new laws that restrict free speech. Although I believe in basic civil rights,
the very able black Mormons who are members of the church know how to approach
this issue without the help of the press.
Facts | 12:39 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
A lot of "stuff" has been perpetuated in posts as "doctrine"
The reality is, a verse of scripture is NOT doctrine as it is open to various
interpretations, neither is a comment or remark doctrine. While both comments
and scripture may reflect doctrine they just as easily may NOT. What is TRUE
doctrine as an example is :
Any person of any race can be a member of the church, and, receive all the ordinances of the Gospel. Hence, any person of any race is limitless in potential for advancement in God's kingdom. To be plain, no one is denied anything due to race, and, all people can be heirs to Heaven through Christ.
Some would jam their opinion down your throat, I will simply let you decide: is that racist doctrine?
While some members of the LDS faith are indeed racist, Jesus is not. As long as we are part of his church we are helping ourselves become more like him, less racist or any ist for that matter. It is a lot better for a racist to be going to church than not. Any feedback that helps us get better is welcome.
Any person of any race can be a member of the church, and, receive all the ordinances of the Gospel. Hence, any person of any race is limitless in potential for advancement in God's kingdom. To be plain, no one is denied anything due to race, and, all people can be heirs to Heaven through Christ.
Some would jam their opinion down your throat, I will simply let you decide: is that racist doctrine?
While some members of the LDS faith are indeed racist, Jesus is not. As long as we are part of his church we are helping ourselves become more like him, less racist or any ist for that matter. It is a lot better for a racist to be going to church than not. Any feedback that helps us get better is welcome.
Kenya Mormon | 12:35 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
There is a huge difference between an individual person's feelings about
another individual and the degree to which it is influenced by race, on the one
hand, and institutionalized racism, on the other hand.
Countless individuals in the Church, BYU, and other organizations are "racist" in various ways and degrees. No question.
But institutionalized racism is the kind that the Church practiced for so long. Institutionalized racism is having a policy and supporting doctrine that systematically denies privileges, responsibilities, ordinances, etc. to groups of individuals because of their race.
There is also NO DOUBT that the LDS Church was guilty of institutionalized racism for over 100 years, until the 1978 declaration changed that. What the declaration did NOT do, however, is apologize or condemn the institutionalized racism up to that point. In fact, all we have received since then are excuses and explanations that are even more offensive. "The white man wasn't ready for it." That is just a way of excusing the mistakes of the leaders. Give me a break - Brigham Young said such racist things simply because "white man wasn't ready"??? Don't insult our intelligence, and your own as well. Racism was NEVER of God. Period.
Countless individuals in the Church, BYU, and other organizations are "racist" in various ways and degrees. No question.
But institutionalized racism is the kind that the Church practiced for so long. Institutionalized racism is having a policy and supporting doctrine that systematically denies privileges, responsibilities, ordinances, etc. to groups of individuals because of their race.
There is also NO DOUBT that the LDS Church was guilty of institutionalized racism for over 100 years, until the 1978 declaration changed that. What the declaration did NOT do, however, is apologize or condemn the institutionalized racism up to that point. In fact, all we have received since then are excuses and explanations that are even more offensive. "The white man wasn't ready for it." That is just a way of excusing the mistakes of the leaders. Give me a break - Brigham Young said such racist things simply because "white man wasn't ready"??? Don't insult our intelligence, and your own as well. Racism was NEVER of God. Period.
Black wanna be LDS | 12:37 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Regardless of the religion, city or whatever Blacks will often times feel they
are out of place. I visited SLC last Sept and found the White folks to be
pleasant and helpful although I could tell they weren't accustomed to being
around Blacks, even in the area around Temple Square. I didn't let that
bother me! I asked several White LDS to take pictures of me and they were
willing and friendly! People will be people regardless... I always treat people
cordial and usually they respond in kind... LDS are no differnt...
Relocated Southerner | 12:37 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
There's been a trend in this country for the past 20 or so years that makes
it acceptable to be racist as long as you're not white. If the white
people tried to do some of the things that the black people do, i.e., United
NEGRO College Fund, the NAACP, the Black Miss America pageant, the Black
Grammys, the Black Entertainment Television network, etc., we would be denounced
for our racism! We even have the Latin Grammys! If we had these same
organizations that only included and/or promoted whites, there would be a huge
public outcry! Promoting one race over another, whether you are white, black,
green or purple, is racism no matter how you look at it! I don't think any
one person is better than another simply by the color of his/her skin. That is
ludicrous! And I don't use the "N" word -- I abhor it -- and I
have always taught my children to accept everyone based upon their individual
character, not their skin color, religion or any other unimportant criteria or
factors.
walk a mile in someones shoes | 12:42 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
If you don't think racism is in full effect in Utah then you are dead
wrong. Comes with being the whitest most righteous Union...
Matthew | 12:40 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Everybody needs to be careful racism, bigotry, prejudice, and stereotypes have
some elements in common but they aren't interchangeable. Bigotry is
probably the worst since it is tied to hateful actions. Racism is ignorant but
is sometimes, albeit rarely, practiced in a benign way. Prejudice causes harm
but is tied to things other than race more often than not (i.e. age, gender,
clothing, language). Stereotypes are simply the human way of dealing with
complexity and unfamiliarity. Being open to knowing and loving each person you
meet as a fellow child of God is called being a Disciple of Christ.
Nice Article | 12:46 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I've found that most of these article commentaries tend to make people
angry and combative.
I think some people actually get a kick out of seeing how many responses they can get to their 'jabs'.
I think some people actually get a kick out of seeing how many responses they can get to their 'jabs'.
Racism one sin among many | 12:53 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
People need to remember that racism is just one particularly obnoxious species
of human malice. A man who uses a racial slur is a jerk. So is a person who
behaves hatefully towards another person in any other way.
For various reasons, many of them compelling, we've elevated race-based hatefulness to the highest level of disfavor. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that as long as they're on the right side of racial issues, they can be as obnoxious as they want in any other category. Exhibit "A" would be a former attorney colleague of mine, who served on a local commission dealing with race relations and related issues. He also happened to be one of the most thoroughly malicious people I've ever known.
For various reasons, many of them compelling, we've elevated race-based hatefulness to the highest level of disfavor. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that as long as they're on the right side of racial issues, they can be as obnoxious as they want in any other category. Exhibit "A" would be a former attorney colleague of mine, who served on a local commission dealing with race relations and related issues. He also happened to be one of the most thoroughly malicious people I've ever known.
BigPoet | 1:00 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
The scriptural account of "blackness" is a mark, and not a curse.
60 Year Old Grandma | 1:03 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
One of the more interesting classes I took at the U before obtaining my BA a
couple of years ago was a diversity class that contained hispanics, LDS and
non-LDS students, traditional and non-traditional students, Korean and Chinese
students, Polynesians, students from Central America, and a young man from
Sudan. I learned that prejudice is alive and well and people can be offended by
many offhanded remarks--or merely avoidance of another, or fear of speaking to
someone else. The young man from Sudan told us, "In this country, the
predjudices are along racial lines. In my country, it is TRIBAL."
Regarding the Church--we, like others have a history, some of it isn't sterling. We're all learning and if we believe in Revelation as we say we do, we have to allow for growth and change. Peter had to be taught that the Gospel could go to non-Jews.
It is difficult to be a minority anywhere. I sympathize.
Regarding the Church--we, like others have a history, some of it isn't sterling. We're all learning and if we believe in Revelation as we say we do, we have to allow for growth and change. Peter had to be taught that the Gospel could go to non-Jews.
It is difficult to be a minority anywhere. I sympathize.
JS | 1:11 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am white and 6-7 years ago I lived in Chicago (South Side). I was called some
terrible things by people of other ethnic group nad/or colors (black &
Hispanic). Trust me, rasicm flows both ways.
Brian | 1:07 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Just because the seed of Cain was given a darker skin color does not mean LDS
people are racist. God can do what he wants as he works his plan and our job is
to be kind to each other. I don't have an explanation for everything God
has done, and it isn't my job to explain it all. My job is to love my
neighbor as myself. That is regardless of skin color, gender, gender attraction,
race, nationality, or whatever. I have no idea why God created so many different
versions of people after his image, but I'm not wasting time trying to
figure it all out. I'm spending time trying to figure out how to help
people and get appropriate help from people.
But, to think that the Brethren thought they had all the answers is to misrepresent the Brethren. People have interpreted what they said as meaning one thing or another and that isn't fair.
But, to think that the Brethren thought they had all the answers is to misrepresent the Brethren. People have interpreted what they said as meaning one thing or another and that isn't fair.
BYU Demographics | 1:07 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
BYU's Demographics should be more representative of the Church's
Demographics... The majority of the church lives outside the USA and I guarantee
BYU doesn't reflect those demographics.
white Mom | 1:09 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
We have 2 adopted Korean daughters and a Black son-in-law. Our daughters were
frequent subjects of rude comments in school. One was very upset by them and
the other blew them off. Kids can be especially mean. Our SIL grew up
experiencing daily racist comments. It is alive and well. our oldest daughter
and her husband still struggle with self esteem issues as adults and their
children are now experiencing it. I hope the day will come when race or
differences of any kind are not an issue. True, the offended one does need to
forgive, or just refuse to be offended, but the offender has the responsibility
to repent, too. It is painful to watch my children and grandchildren experience
this. Our SIL might join the Church if he could get past all the negative
things he hears from other Blacks. We keep hoping and praying...
Adan | 1:10 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
John Lambert, what you wrote earlier is unintentionally funny:
"How can someone say there have not been black leaders in the church. There has been a black general authority."
I think your second sentence answers the first. "A" black general authority...out of hundreds.
And the commenter you were replying to was referring to the public face of church leadership; you talk about assistants to the twelve and lower level leadership. But I think the commenter had the quorum of the 12, the presidency of the 70, the presiding Bishopric, and possibly the first quorum of 70 in mind. Racially, that's not a very diverse group.
"How can someone say there have not been black leaders in the church. There has been a black general authority."
I think your second sentence answers the first. "A" black general authority...out of hundreds.
And the commenter you were replying to was referring to the public face of church leadership; you talk about assistants to the twelve and lower level leadership. But I think the commenter had the quorum of the 12, the presidency of the 70, the presiding Bishopric, and possibly the first quorum of 70 in mind. Racially, that's not a very diverse group.
Dear Brent | 1:17 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am sorry but you need to revisit your local LDS bookseller.
Figurines/paintings/etc that depict minorities do in fact exist and you really
don't have to look that hard to find them.
I spent 8 years as an independent LDS bookseller and I know this has been true for at least the last decade (probably much longer)
I spent 8 years as an independent LDS bookseller and I know this has been true for at least the last decade (probably much longer)
Why LDS Can't Address the Past | 1:12 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I believe that most reasonable, thoughtful, rational members and leaders of the
LDS Church fully recognize that many statements and actions of leaders in the
early history of the Church were simply wrong and have been a real barrier to
thousands of potential converts over the years.
BUT, the Church also teaches that our leaders are inspired to direct the Church - a Church that contains the fullness of the Gospel. A fullness that will be expanded upon THROUGH our inspired leaders.
This reality makes it VERY difficult to criticize any actions or comments of former leaders. Changing practice or policy has been the only means of remedy. And there is no question that the Church of today has changed a GREAT deal from the Church of JS and BY.
Once the Church starts pointing to past leader's comments or teachings as incorrect then they are on a very slippery slope of what else was incorrect? It is a tough situation because I believe that some actions and teaching of the past were blatently FALSE and I believe privately leaders of today would completely agree. But they are very careful not to criticize past leaders no matter the comments/actions.
BUT, the Church also teaches that our leaders are inspired to direct the Church - a Church that contains the fullness of the Gospel. A fullness that will be expanded upon THROUGH our inspired leaders.
This reality makes it VERY difficult to criticize any actions or comments of former leaders. Changing practice or policy has been the only means of remedy. And there is no question that the Church of today has changed a GREAT deal from the Church of JS and BY.
Once the Church starts pointing to past leader's comments or teachings as incorrect then they are on a very slippery slope of what else was incorrect? It is a tough situation because I believe that some actions and teaching of the past were blatently FALSE and I believe privately leaders of today would completely agree. But they are very careful not to criticize past leaders no matter the comments/actions.
Why recruit blacks to BYU? | 1:24 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Why recruit blacks to BYU? So some non-blacks can get a little exposure to
something besides their white bread, Utah County world.
It is the same reason that Harvard recruits people of different ethnic, religious, political and geographical backgrounds -- so they can learn about each other, and be better prepared to prosper in life.
It is the same reason that Harvard recruits people of different ethnic, religious, political and geographical backgrounds -- so they can learn about each other, and be better prepared to prosper in life.
LDS in Texas | 1:26 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
To people that say the LDS Church is racist because of the Church's
position prior to 1978 need to consider the following - since the Church
officially changed its policy regarding the priesthood in 1978, does that mean
that the LDS Church is NOT racist today?
Being a minority is difficult, but WE CAN CHOOSE to be defined by how WE treat others as opposed to how others treat US. I believe this is the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yes, there are people who disparage others because of the color of their skin or because they pronounce words differently or even because of their religion. Disciples of Christ are to stand for truth and righteousness in all things and in all places. May we all be given the strength and courage to do so.
Being a minority is difficult, but WE CAN CHOOSE to be defined by how WE treat others as opposed to how others treat US. I believe this is the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yes, there are people who disparage others because of the color of their skin or because they pronounce words differently or even because of their religion. Disciples of Christ are to stand for truth and righteousness in all things and in all places. May we all be given the strength and courage to do so.
LDS v United States | 1:35 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am proud to be a citizen of the Unites States even though this country
supported slavery and instututionalized racism for years. A large part of that
pride is because this country rectified (and countinues to try to do so) those
racial wrongs AND acknowledged how wrong those earlier practices and beliefs
were.
This is where the Church differs from the experience of the United States - the Church also changed it's race related practices (albeit very late in the game) but has not similarly publically refuted those practices and beliefs as being in error.
That is why so many view such changes in practice or policy by the Church as coerced or expedient rather than as sincere corrections in error. And it is why some cannot help but think the Church still believes in earlier teachings because while the practice may have changed nothing has been said addressing the teachings or statements.
It is very similar to the polygamy issue. The change cannot help but appear to have come only from pressure or expediency. No wonder so many still understand polygamy to still be an eternal principal that will later be practiced.
This is where the Church differs from the experience of the United States - the Church also changed it's race related practices (albeit very late in the game) but has not similarly publically refuted those practices and beliefs as being in error.
That is why so many view such changes in practice or policy by the Church as coerced or expedient rather than as sincere corrections in error. And it is why some cannot help but think the Church still believes in earlier teachings because while the practice may have changed nothing has been said addressing the teachings or statements.
It is very similar to the polygamy issue. The change cannot help but appear to have come only from pressure or expediency. No wonder so many still understand polygamy to still be an eternal principal that will later be practiced.
Ask someone that knows | 1:43 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I play Football at BYU and we were playing at San Diego State in 1989 this is
what happen. I am used to name calling on the field but in this particular game
a lot my team mates thought it fitting to call the players on SDSU by the N word
repeatedly. All of our position coaches heard this and laughed about how we
were under their skin. In the locker room after I looked at some of your Black
players and you could see the pain in their faces. I did not take part in this
but the word got out in the Holiday Bowl Texas A&M let us know about how
they felt. A couple of years later Florida State used this to fire themselves
up also. This one act is the reason BYU will have a hard time ever playing in a
BCS bowl because ignorance tolerates ignorance.
hombre.de.Steele | 1:53 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I was dragged into court, on an EEO case, in part because of my religion. I am
white and Mormon. The person who took me to court was Black and believed that
my religion made me a racist. I was exonerated! The racist problem is a human
problem. When we see all humans as Childern of our Father in Heaven, there is
no room for racist thoughts and feelings in our minds and hearts.
Generalizing | 2:10 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Any type of generalizing for any certain race is dangerous. Every individual is
unique. In fact, anatomically, no two people have the EXACT same skin color.
Generalizing is a natural human tendency that must be constantly fought and avoided when dealing with people. The best way I've found to overcome judgmental feelings is to get to know a person and start from ground-zero, putting aside all preconceived notions and learning who that unique individual really is.
Generalizing is a natural human tendency that must be constantly fought and avoided when dealing with people. The best way I've found to overcome judgmental feelings is to get to know a person and start from ground-zero, putting aside all preconceived notions and learning who that unique individual really is.
Jon B. Holbrook | 2:15 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Racial discrimination does not belong in The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. God is no respector of persons. I don't know the exact
reason for the priesthood ban. I have my own ideas, but it is my opinion only
and not that of the Church. I totally accepted the Priesthood Revelation of
1978. The revelation came through a Prophet of God, Spencer W. Kimball. That is
good enough for me. I now judge members of the Church based on their words and
actions, not the color of their skin. We should not try to interject into this
discussion the political agendas or theories of the world or justify racial
prejudice based on LDS Church policy prior to June, 1978. Let the dead bury the
dead. We need to be united in making sure that the Kingdom of God is trumphant
over Modern-day Babylon. We shouldn't let our enemies divide the Saints
over such things as race. The politicians do this on a regular basis for
ulterior purposes. The Latter-day Saints need to remain above that. Thank-you
Larri3 | 2:20 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
To Anonymous (AKA Chicken Liver),
Here is your answer:
Some long-dead presidents of the church, like most white men of their day, ignorantly believed that blacks were inferior to whites. Each president was a human who made mistakes.
You might not believe it, but as a faithful LDS, I believe that the president of the church has the keys to administer the priesthood. That doesn't mean he is infallible. It is false doctrine to preach otherwise.
Current church leaders also make mistakes, as do all humans, regardless of their their religion or priesthood callings. Be sure that one of your mistakes is not to murmur against the annointed servants of God. Use your common sense and conscience to decide how best to act as a disciple of Christ.
Be thankful that some of the mistakes of the past have been corrected. Have leaders of the church called past racism a mistake? Yes. They might not ever address the issue in the fashion you desire. Big deal. By your fruits you shall know them.
Here is your answer:
Some long-dead presidents of the church, like most white men of their day, ignorantly believed that blacks were inferior to whites. Each president was a human who made mistakes.
You might not believe it, but as a faithful LDS, I believe that the president of the church has the keys to administer the priesthood. That doesn't mean he is infallible. It is false doctrine to preach otherwise.
Current church leaders also make mistakes, as do all humans, regardless of their their religion or priesthood callings. Be sure that one of your mistakes is not to murmur against the annointed servants of God. Use your common sense and conscience to decide how best to act as a disciple of Christ.
Be thankful that some of the mistakes of the past have been corrected. Have leaders of the church called past racism a mistake? Yes. They might not ever address the issue in the fashion you desire. Big deal. By your fruits you shall know them.
RockOn | 2:19 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I've been a MINORITY as a Mormon in a Baptist area of Virginia, and that
really is a tough road to hoe. So many prejudiced people with preachers spewing
forth hate rhetoric about my faith and demeaning so many wonderful people
I've know of not only my faith but other faiths as well.
Anti Stan | 2:35 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Stanley: What in world are you talking about? Do you still attend seminary each
morning or have a copy of the teaching guide? I haven't heard the fence
sitting myth in 20 years. Get over your issues bud. You've left the
church...leave it be. If it's destined to be condemned by God...then leave
it to Him.
oscar | 2:36 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Thank God for America to inspire important changes in all religous beliefs.
Remember it was Americans that brought about the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and our
Church follows our government.
It was two private higher education institutions (BYU & SJC) that triggered me to learn more and work with those, who shared the same views. I choose to work with those, who are opposite in views, both in the church & out-of-the church. Yet, I know both will bend over backwards to help me if I need the help. I know because they have helped and will continue to help.
The real changes need to occur in the courts sentencing of blacks & other minorities.
It was two private higher education institutions (BYU & SJC) that triggered me to learn more and work with those, who shared the same views. I choose to work with those, who are opposite in views, both in the church & out-of-the church. Yet, I know both will bend over backwards to help me if I need the help. I know because they have helped and will continue to help.
The real changes need to occur in the courts sentencing of blacks & other minorities.
European | 2:32 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I am a member of the church, but come from a European country. It is very
obvious to me that there is a big discprepancy between true Gospel Doctrine and
Utah social life and opinions in many ways - politics, racism, feminism etc.
It is so thrilling to me that the next US president may be black, one who�s even attended a Moslem school! Wow! Go Obama! I am convinced he can do something to make this world a safer place, cleaning up after the damage Bush has managed to do in his so called "fight against terrorism"! I so hope Obama wins - the world doesn�t need another dense conservative American president! But is Utah ready for a black president?? Doubt it...
It is so thrilling to me that the next US president may be black, one who�s even attended a Moslem school! Wow! Go Obama! I am convinced he can do something to make this world a safer place, cleaning up after the damage Bush has managed to do in his so called "fight against terrorism"! I so hope Obama wins - the world doesn�t need another dense conservative American president! But is Utah ready for a black president?? Doubt it...
European American | 2:47 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
As long as there is Miss Black.....or something of that nature, they never will
be accepted as equal. They act like being black gives them special priviliges.
My family has never owned slaves and they have never have been a slave. Nothing
is owed to them.
Southern Boy | 3:30 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
I know firsthand what happened in 1978. All my black friends (I was an inner
city white kid) basically said..."you guys finally came around". We
then went right back to playing ball!
Notice that the hatred in these comments aren't from Blacks...they don't hate the same way an anti Mormon or bigot hates...most are glad when the government or a group moves forward. It's the past that haunts...but the future brings hope. I can't even remember that last time a black called me a "used to be" racist!
Notice that the hatred in these comments aren't from Blacks...they don't hate the same way an anti Mormon or bigot hates...most are glad when the government or a group moves forward. It's the past that haunts...but the future brings hope. I can't even remember that last time a black called me a "used to be" racist!
Tickled Pink | 3:42 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
You guys are funny...all the hatred and discrimination and genocide going on in
the world today and you're obsessed with what seems to be a POSITIVE story
on BYU racial relations? You all must be bored. I'm also shocked how many
mormon haters there are. I can't imagine this kind of stuff being thrown
at other religions. Maybe some of its deserved...most of it looks like deep
anger or resentment however. Hope you guys know how you look to us
"others".
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 3:46 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
The priesthood bar was never applied to other minority races, from American
Indians to Hispanics to Polynesians to Asians. The Church was sending
missionaries to those "minority groups", to Indians since 1830, to
Polynesia since 1844, to Japan in 1901. Plenty of Polynesians have darker skins
than American blacks. How are Mormons racist when many of them were not white,
and the whites actively recruit non-whites in Africa and Latin-America?
Mormons were largely not slave-owning Southerners, but Northerners. Converts came from anti-slavery Britain and Scandinavia. Mormons never had racially segregated congregations. There were blacks in my ward in Salt Lake in the 1950s. Contrast Southern Baptists, whose church was created to defend slavery, and who still have some segregated congregations.
Plenty of white Mormons are donating 2 years as missionaries in African nations. How can you call them racist?
In my little Idaho ward, we have families with mixed race marriages and adopted black children and an elder from Kenya. They were all accepted as ward members.
Some people may be concerned about how you, as a minority person, look at THEM. American society says all blacks have anger and all whites are guilty. They just need reassurance.
Mormons were largely not slave-owning Southerners, but Northerners. Converts came from anti-slavery Britain and Scandinavia. Mormons never had racially segregated congregations. There were blacks in my ward in Salt Lake in the 1950s. Contrast Southern Baptists, whose church was created to defend slavery, and who still have some segregated congregations.
Plenty of white Mormons are donating 2 years as missionaries in African nations. How can you call them racist?
In my little Idaho ward, we have families with mixed race marriages and adopted black children and an elder from Kenya. They were all accepted as ward members.
Some people may be concerned about how you, as a minority person, look at THEM. American society says all blacks have anger and all whites are guilty. They just need reassurance.
Confused | 4:08 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Raymond Swenson,
Please do not confuse the issue of Racism with the Anti Mormon Crowd. Facts seems to get in the way.
I find it interesting that some dough heads call the LDS Church Racist when they
A) allowed Blacks to own land in Utah (1850-1900) where no one else allowed it. The LDS store owners also sold supplies to them (unlike the South). They ate together and worshiped together
B) no segreation of Wards for the blacks
C) open missionary work with those other "Races" (Inidans, Polynesains, south Americans, Mexicans, etc)
D) When there is a disaster in Africa or Some other country the LDS church is one of the first one there handing out needed supplies REGUARDLESS of Race.
E) Brigham Young worked with the Local Indians Tribes (Utes mostly) to use the land, we gave them cattle, food stuff, etc. Yes, we had idiots on both sides.
Granted we did not have a lot of Black converts at the time, but when other of "Race" came we took care of them.
So I guess we are not as Racist as they think we are.
Please do not confuse the issue of Racism with the Anti Mormon Crowd. Facts seems to get in the way.
I find it interesting that some dough heads call the LDS Church Racist when they
A) allowed Blacks to own land in Utah (1850-1900) where no one else allowed it. The LDS store owners also sold supplies to them (unlike the South). They ate together and worshiped together
B) no segreation of Wards for the blacks
C) open missionary work with those other "Races" (Inidans, Polynesains, south Americans, Mexicans, etc)
D) When there is a disaster in Africa or Some other country the LDS church is one of the first one there handing out needed supplies REGUARDLESS of Race.
E) Brigham Young worked with the Local Indians Tribes (Utes mostly) to use the land, we gave them cattle, food stuff, etc. Yes, we had idiots on both sides.
Granted we did not have a lot of Black converts at the time, but when other of "Race" came we took care of them.
So I guess we are not as Racist as they think we are.
Willie | 4:23 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
if you think that being a black student at BYU is hard, imagine what it is like
for a thinking student that questions authority is like.
They could get suspended for such acts.
They could get suspended for such acts.
Stop yellow journalism | 4:23 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
Terrible misleading headline. I happen to know from Journalism 101, most people
only read the headlines and then form opinions. Very dishonest DN, low marks for
integrity.
Just a myth? | 4:23 p.m. Feb. 27, 2008
August 17, 1949
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
The First Presidency
ref. (Neither White nor Black:
Signature Books; Midvale, Utah
� 1984 by Signature Books.)
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
The First Presidency
ref. (Neither White nor Black:
Signature Books; Midvale, Utah
� 1984 by Signature Books.)
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I see your point. However I think you need to remember many black students at BYU come from majority black areas.
They have never been around so many white people before. There are different levels of adjustment for different people. I think this article captures both the need to stand up and the need to be understanding.
I know I too often go to anger. When I hear a fello ward member make the comment "I don't feel safe with all these black people around" I can not help going on a shouting rampage of how I am tired of being surrounded by a bunch of evil racists.
I know that calm, balenced analysis is better. I know that shouting at people is not the answer. But such a statement just raises my blood level to that of anger. The really scarry thing to me is that was a statement made by someone born after 1985. I once thought once my grandmother's generation died out we would be free of racism, but I sometimes almost think things are getting worse.