Deseret News | Reader comments: Idaho man files sex abuse lawsuit against Scouts, LDS Church

Reader comments
Idaho man files sex abuse lawsuit against Scouts, LDS Church

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Prior 2nd ward member | 12:43 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

I am from Nampa. I went to school in the 80's, and I know of two instances where leaders, either in church or school were molesting children. In one instance, my 6th grade teacher would feel up our shirts, and make everyone including me feel uncomfortable. When a student reported that she was molested, the school rallied around the teacher, even going so far as to ask students, including myself to write letters on behalf of the teacher. Their enthusiasm was dampened when other past students made similar accusations.

So sick | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

of hearing about this. I've read the details of this case over and over on our local news. This guy and his lawyer are looking for money, no more. The Scouts and LDS church are not responsible for the acts of one guy who ACTED ON HIS OWN. Yes, he used a position of power, but that was him, not the organization. And look at the years they are talking about. He's finally sewing because there's finally a lawyer sleezy enough to take the case.

Just a guy | 1:55 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

Can I be the first one to nominate this guy for idiot of the year??? Come on...40 years later???? Give me a break. This should get thrown out immediately.

Comments continue below

Boo Hoo | 2:07 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

I've been a failure all my life. Who can I blame so I won't feel responsible?

Just a guy | 2:31 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

Boo Hoo...how about Democrats? Republicans? Catholics? Mormons? Whoever. Make sure you try to get a few million out of them while you are doing it.

Memory True or False | 3:24 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

When the events in question took place over 40 years ago, I worry about memory stimulation on the part of therapists. See Deseret News article today "Controversial therapist put on probation." The woman in this article put ideas into patients' heads -- not the way to help people!
Prosecuting those who did the actual abusing is the right way to deal with these matters. The Scouts & the Church would do all they could to prevent them, but if no one told them then....

Show me the money! | 3:27 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

One time at Scout Camp my Scout Master said I smelled in front of the other boys. I have been scarred for life. What is it worth in Dollars to make me whole?

church member | 4:41 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

it is time for the church and the B.S.A to part ways. Too many people looking for an early retirement and i'm not talking about the "victim", I'm talking about the lawyer.

Prior 2nd Ward Member | 4:59 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

I was witness to another case in the 2nd Ward where a LDS scout leader and football coach molested children, including an LDS boy. I have to say I was surprised when he still went to church after it was initially reported. He was later convicted. Things have changed. In the past, the heirarchy of the church, like the Catholic Church, was more concerned about reforming the sinner, and less focussed on prosecution and the trauma to the victim. Today, the church guidelines have changed for the better. Any incident is immediately reported to authorities. The truth is, things have changed. Lawsuits like these are useful in that they change organizations to make them responsible for their lack of oversight or failure to take action. It makes them protect victims rather than protect the church. And to respond to what another has said, if I was molested, even 30-40 years ago, I would remember it. We remember traumatic events. However, even I wonder why it has taken so long to come forward.

Revenge | 5:18 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008

I think all current and former Boy Scouts, Boy Scout volunteers and members of the LDS church should sue the lawyer for defamation of character since he asserts that all LDS members and BSA volunteers are child abusers. This is clearly an error in fact and is an attempt to diminish my standing in society and impacts my ability to earn a living. 20 million each should do the trick.

Number 5 | 3:08 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Lame for people to always wanna be hatin' on the church. With all due respect to this guy's suffering, one can't honestly expect a church to micromanaged, and therefore be responsible for, the behavior of millions of its members. But, yeah, sure is a fun way to try to make the church look bad. The church and the scouts are a couple of the last shining beacons that really promote goodness and wisdom. A shame people have to be hatin'.

vern | 4:28 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

it was so cold in idaho the other day!!!boy oh boy was it cold in idaho the other day!!!it was so cold that i saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets!!!!!!

Robert | 5:00 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I'm surprised at the defensiveness of these comments. The Boy Scout leader quoted in the article is right: we condemn child abuse no matter when it occurred or how it occurred. The lawsuit may well be dismissed on statute of limitations grounds; I hope it is, at least. But that doesn't mean the plaintiff wasn't sexually abused.

Would you feel differently about this if it was your son being drawn into a sexual relationship with an adult male?

Joey | 5:45 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Risk Return
I agree with "Church Member", the risk involved in participating with the scouts outweighs the benefits gained. It is time for the church to part ways. I was a young men's president in Brazil, where the LDS church uses an expanded "Duty to God" program to accomplish the same things that the scouts accomplish. The church doesn't endorse the boyscouts in Brazil because boyscout meetings are held on Sundays. 50 years ago the church needed the credibility provided by the Boy Scouts. These days, an Eagle Scout award doesnt mean much outside of the church anyway. I think it is time for a mutual breakup.

Frank, | 6:09 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Well, the lemmings are out. What does it take to get the Utah lemmings our from under their rocks and to face facts. Just keep defending the guilty until it is your son or daughter. then write us again

to church member/fr church membe | 6:13 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I think we as members hold the upper hand in this. I for one NEVER sent my boys on a camp without their father.

Further more.... If we all pull our boys from the program... the church would have to take a good hard look at their involvement!

The boyscout program does little, if nothing, to prepare our boys for the priesthood, which is its most important roll.

WELCOME TO THE LAST DAYS!!!!

russ | 6:25 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Serious charges. Must be investigated. Thoroughly.

ralf | 6:35 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I think its time to re-evaluate the value of the scouting program. It was timely in the 1940's but hasn't kept up with the times. Time to move on and create a program that is appropriate for this century.

BSA is a good program | 6:52 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

The actions of this Scout leader should be condemned, but I don't think we should condemn scouting. The Boy Scout program is good for the boys and young men of the LDS Church. Perhaps abuse was a problem in the past with scouting, but the problem is currently being addressed and corrected. My son just started Cub Scouts and one of his first requirements was to sit down with us (his parents) and discuss ways to prevent child abuse. Such a conversation probably would not have occurred if he were not involved in the Cub Scouts.

TexasPat | 6:56 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Joey, I can't DISSAGREE with you more. Might want to go back to the hand book. The Scouting program is the Church's boy youth program for all US scouts as directed by the Prophet, if run properly, will teach and compliments the priesthood program in all ways. Are you telling me he is wrong! Secondly, the rank of Eagle is still widely recognized. Look at the Military Acadamy's entrance requirements, look at the Tx A&M Football media guide, it lists all players who are Eagle Scouts. Sorry Joey and to/fr as an Eagle Scout and prior SM you are incorrect.

As for the purpose of the article, abuse is wrong, not the program.

Dave | 6:56 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I'm disappointed at the calloused nature of so many responses to this story. Child abuse is an ugly sin, and it affects people's lives in ways that most of us will never understand, fortunately. That it comes out 40 years later is not uncommon, as people finally face what has happened to them. If it turns out the church authorities looked the other way as this abuse was occurring, the victim needs to be compensated, although I, like the rest of you, I am uncomfortable with my tithing dollars funding such a cause. But whether or not you agree with the money issue, let's at least focus on the important points of such a case, namely, the gravity of the crime and the sensitivity we need to demonstrate for the victim.

Canuck | 7:14 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

For all who think the Scouting Program is not valid or does not fulfill the needs of our young men and the Priesthood it is because you are not involved in Scouting right now, and should be. The Scouting movement is the best organization in the world and continues to teach the same principles that the Church espouses. The Church is partnered with World Scouting for a reason. What you are suggesting is that we need more basketball nights on mutual night as an excuse for lazy YM's leaders.

Chad | 7:16 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I have to agree with the writers who think the church and the BSA should part ways. In my ward growing up and in the wards my children and I have lived in, BSA is a joke. There are always one or two families who bleed BSA olive green and everyone else comes along for the ride. The kids rarely learn anything, and if I read about another barely-turned-12-year-old who "earned" his eagle while performing service projects OBVIOUSLY beyond his age (read: mommy and daddy did it for him) I am gonna be sick.

Think again ralf... | 7:20 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

...with Pres. Monson being on the National BSA board, you really think the LDS Church is going to give up scouting??? I can only see a push for more involvement in the scouting program. It is tgragic what happened in the 60's and 70's, but bringing lawsuits today, won't change the actions of people 40 years ago, nor will prove anything except that bloodsucking lawyers can convince us that somehow repairation lawsuits will change the fabric of space and time. If abuse happened back then, the church and the scouts took it seriously then as they do now.

PDX Attorney | 7:15 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I'm an attorney in Portland, Oregon and know Kelly Clark (the plaintiff's attorney). He makes a living off of these type of cases. Indeed, he's set up a special "LDS abuse victims" website to fish for plaintiffs. I'm not trivializing these allegations but I am questioning the ethics and professionality of Mr. Clark.

blm | 7:19 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

ralf - correct - BSA out of touch with the times - appropriate for this century?

honesty - integrity - reverance - loyalty - duty to god and country - helping other people at all times -

what would you create that is even close to more important for this time -

lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater

Eugene | 7:32 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Sad situation where nobody wins except the lawyers.

Give me a break | 7:34 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Give me a break, Frank. Looks like the haters are out. I'm sick of people blaming an institution for something because it has deep pockets. You can bet the lawyer's just suing whoever has the money. Think about it: if the church was already bankrupt, and the offender was the founder of, say Pizza Hut, would there be headlines about the church? Would Clark be trying to sue us? You're kidding yourself if you think this isn't about money. 40 years later?

Also, think about this. If you dig in imperfect people's lives, you can find "dirt" all around you. A JCPenny employee once killed a guy. Let's Sue the company, right? A University of Utah student once drove drunk. Let's sue! A BYU kid once dealt ecstasy. Let's sue!!!! Should we sue the offenders? No! Let's go for the money!

ghamilton | 7:47 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

By coincidence,I was rereading this section in the BISHOP's handbook,last night.The instructions ARE VERY CLEAR,the actions to be taken are definitive and draconian,as they should be.The 2006 version offers no out for the perp,no window of doubt on how to handle such crimes.Same with other forms of child or spouse abuse.Ws this all handled properly in the dim,distant past?No,but to defame the scouts now is just wrong,to defame the church NOW,also wrong.This is just Clark's get rich ticket.This evil man cares about nothing but his patday,however he gets it.
I think of an incident in a small Utah town where a high priest in a responsible church position was beating his daughter severely,the mother,who should have long before left the monster,ran to the bishop's house for help.No action taken against the perp.The book,now,MANDATES strong action against such a person.15 years ago,the book wasn't as clear.It is up to church leaders to use the great resources availible to serve those they are responsible for.

Scouting not the problem | 7:43 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Just a thought. If the BSA is so bad, why have so many church leaders spoken out endorsing scouting? What about all the quotes by the brethren saying that getting an Eagle Scout prepares young men for missions, priesthood, and etc?

Yeah, I admit that scouting is not "hot" and not popular to do. In some wards it is a joke, but in others scouting is a resource to train young wen vital skills for life, and not just wilderness survival. Things like budgeting and money management and first aid.

The scouting program in the church isn't the problem. It is sickos that are the problem.

obey the rules | 7:45 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Never be alone with a scout. BSA mandates two deep leadership, both to protect boys and to protect leaders. If the Assistant Scoutmaster truly witnessed sexual abuse and didn't report it, doesn't that make him an accessory? But if the Assistant Scoutmaster says that he witnessed no abuse then there is no case, but an accusation.

To Chad and other BSA Bashers | 7:51 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I've been in wards where the Mutual program was Basketball. Does that mean that either Mutual or Scouts should be scrapped? No, it means the programs are not run properly. Elder Dalhquist (Gen'l YM President) stated that a serious problem facing the church's youth program is that Bishops and those called don't think that the Young Men's leadership doesn't need to be trained. How can you run a program if you don't know how it is supposed to function or what your role should be. Can you function effectively at work without knowing what your job description is or without training? And these men are charged with the safety and training of our Lord's future leaders.

As to Child abuse - it is horrible - but both the church and BSA are VERY proactive today. This case is but another money grubbing ambulance chaser going after deep pockets. Wait 'til this Clark character runs for President because of his commitment to helping the "little" people.

Canuck | 7:53 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

To Chad and others:
I keep hearing people complaining about Scouting and that the Church should ditch the organization because of Child Abuse. No one is suggesting anything better to do with the YM's program. Currently, Scouts is doing a better job of screening leaders and teaching against Child Abuse than any other organization I know. You should bleed olive green and get involved and not merely just go along for the ride. If BSA is a joke in your ward it is because you and your relatives are not actively making it better. I'm glad Mom's and Dad's are helping their sons get their Eagle, it shows that they're envolved and engaged with the youth program, while you are just on the sideline or going along for the ride. That is where kids are at risk with Child Abuse is when parents are not envolved and watching and vigilent, they're just along for the ride.

correction to chad et al | 7:54 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

That should have read that in general bishops and YM leaders don't understand the importance of BSA training and therefore training is not emphasized or taken, having a negative impact of the program.

Emmett | 8:00 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

As a an active member of the LDS church in Atlanta that has spent the last three years helping to investigate sex abuse cases here by a former scout leader/Youngs Mens Presidency member I want to offer a word of caution. Parents, please do not take this lightly. The problem is shared between Priesthood Leaders, the Boy Scouts and Parents but not equally. It is far too easy to blame the BSA for not taking the appropriate steps when we , in fact, as leadership in the church fail to follow sound principles in thoroughly reviewing the backgrounds of Scout and Young Mens leaders prior to calling them. Further, we need to make certain that two deep leadership is always adhered to. Parents need to become well versed in what type of interaction is appropriately and allowable as called out in the church handbook and when you see abuses to that code of conduct, for heavens sake, bring it to the attention of your eccleastical leader and demand answers. We are talking about taking care of our heavenly fathers most choice sheep. It's time we wake up and realize just how many wolves are surrounding and mingling with the flock.

BSA??? | 8:02 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Molestation allegations and lawsuits have increased over the past few years within BSA. It doesn't matter whether this case is a fabrication or legitimate, the church doesn't need the negative publicty.

Between this and scouts getting lost or killed during scout camp... there seems to be more downside to our continued involvement with BSA.

PS Canuck: I'm a scout leader and have two boys in the program.

LDS | 8:09 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

How much money is too much if it happened to you? Or worse, your son? Don't judge the time table if you've never been abused!

Brian | 8:06 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Every attorney in the system costs the taxpayers $700,000 per year for the support system of courts, clerks, judges etc. that allows them to ply their trade. The $1.666,666.66 the lawyer is hoping to walk away with from this case, and he says he has seven on file right now, is pretty good work if you can just find the right group of customers.

P.S. The repetition of the 666 number in the sought for settlement is purely coincidental.

Shirley | 8:09 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I think the law suit muddies the waters. The alleged victim could have reported this to police, and investigation and possibly prosecution would follow if there were enough evidence. If the man is guilty, he should go to prison. If the history in the article is right, there probably have been dozens of victims because pediphiles don't stop.

As to scouting, I've been distressed with it in Utah. Out of Utah young men are active in scouting right up to 18 when they often get their Eagles; I have serious reservations about the Utah BSA Blitz to get a boy to Eagle by 14. It's a cram course and much less effective than spreading it out to 18 as it is designed to be. If he doesn't have it by 14 in Utah, he probably won't get it because the church doesn't effectively use scouting past the deacon's quorum. And what about the promise the Eagle makes to give back to scouting? Once at 14 he has the Eagle, it's finished. Too bad. It's a great program, but it isn't used as effectively as it could be here in Utah. LDS wards out of Utah use it to 18.

Greg W....... | 8:09 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

I've heard of lawyer ambulance chasers. Looks like we now have lawyer abuse chasers. I would be willing to bet my house on this scenario. The lawyer scours the sex offenders lists in every town and city. Does some background checks on whether that person was ever involved in scouts and then finds some former scouts that he convinces they were abused 40+ years ago. Then tries to settle out of court. And in the process, the attorney pockets more money than the 'victim'. Interesting way to make a living.

Big Al | 8:26 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Mr. Kelly Clark no-doubt makes a comfortable living seeking financial retribution from those with deep pockets for the acts of individuals. I imagine many defendants settle out of court, rather than spending limited resources on a legal defense. Since he is the "champion" of abuse victims, I wonder how many poor people Mr. Clark has sued for similar offenses?

Lord Baden Powell | 8:37 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

This is the reason the LDS Church will someday abandon the BSA.

SAD DAY | 8:42 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Our judicial system was set up to protect the truth without favoring the plaintiff or defendant. We don't know where truth stands on this particular situation so everything said here today must be prefaced with "in my opinion". Many here today are stating opinions as facts; that's plain wrong.

The issue of Clark being a "hired gun" lawyer is a double-edged sword. As a plaintiff you want to the best representation and who better than someone with experience with your particular issue, yet lawyers like Clark deservedly raise mistrust due to the way they do business.

The issue of including the BSA and LDS church is likewise double-edged: Yes, they have all the money but they also wield much responsibility sometimes with little oversight. The BSA basically "hires" these leaders, albeit with no pay. The LDS church uses the BSA (in a near monopoly) as a companion program to other church sponsored activities and should answer to inadequate oversight.

And, finally, the bad guys who actually do the wrong do need to go to jail. Not just the big pockets.

...in my opinion.

Darrel | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

This on-going series of cases in which the LDS Church and their Scouts permits predators to act as leaders among children will soon gain equal prominence with the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

non-believer | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Obviously most of you have never been through the scouting program. And that is OK. Not everyone likes to go camping, cook over a fire etc. But just because you could not do it, don't go after the program. If the church is suppose to leave the scouting program, the prophet of the church will tell us.

As for this allegation. It should be investigated, but I get the feeling that this lawyer and this man are broke and need some money.

Shadow Rider | 8:47 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

As a member of the LDS Church I do appreciate the scouting program and the dedicated leaders in my ward. They do a great job with my boys and I am very involved with what they do. It would be a shame for the Church and BSA to part ways because of the actions of a few. I have also worked in the criminal justice field for over 10 years and know first hand the affects of child abuse, both physically and sexually, on the victim, family, and even the accused. It is a horrible thing for all involved, especially the long-term suffering of the victim. I do question cases where decades later the victim suddenly remembers the abuse though. All it takes is to be accused of such a horrible thing and the label is affixed!I will never defend a person who commits a crime against a child, but we need to make very sure of the offense before accusations are made. I appreciate the comments of PDX Attorney because attorneys like Clark should be disbarred. There are very good attorneys out there.

Anonymous | 8:57 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

How did I ever make it through my teenage years without having been abused by my scout leaders? But thanks for bring this to our attention, MR Doe, if that is your real name. I wish I could go back and sue everyone who has wronged me, but there's a statute of limitations for a reason. Four decades is far too long and frankly I don't buy the argument that it takes time to finally face what happened. It's more often they finally realize, hey, this could be worth something. Sorry Mr. Doe, the Church and Boy Scouts do all they can anymore to rid the organizations of abusers, but to try and make a case at this point is frivolous and ridiculous.

Oregon Attorney | 8:56 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

This attorney has a web page called "mormonabuse.com" He's classless enough to use a picture of the SLC Temple on that web page. In any event, Kelly Clark is doing his part to bring negative publicity to the Church whether 1 lawsuit has been filed or 50. Associating the temple with the terrible crimes committed by a minute number of members is simply wrong.

Take Responsibility | 8:57 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

In regards to the Scouting program. Parents, take responsibility for your lack of participation in the scouting program. Working with young people in the church requires a lot of time and effort. A calling some members try to avoid. My kid is a Eagle scout but it took effort to get him there. I am not the dedicated scout person but I didn't hold the scout leaders accountable for my son's lack of effort. I took the responsibility. We tend to want to blame others for lack of success rather than looking at ourselves first. Where there is will, there is a way.
Boy Scout program is not going away, so either make an effort or don't complain. OH! by the way, my son's college counselor was impressed he was a Eagle Scout. It does help in one way or another.

Oregon | 9:05 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008

Funny how all these stories come out of the Great North West. Greedy.

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