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Issue of day: cutting taxes or raising teacher pay
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Science Teacher | 2:46 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008
Here's a great example:
we don't value trash collector very much in our community... thus, they aren't paid as much as doctors.
On average, I might see a doctor once/year for checkups. How long would I last if my trash were never collected? What if I just threw it out in my back yard?
The pay does not dictate the importance of the job. Otherwise, pro. athletes would be getting less than I do.
we don't value trash collector very much in our community... thus, they aren't paid as much as doctors.
On average, I might see a doctor once/year for checkups. How long would I last if my trash were never collected? What if I just threw it out in my back yard?
The pay does not dictate the importance of the job. Otherwise, pro. athletes would be getting less than I do.
Re:Science Teacher | 3:28 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008
"Try living in a country with no artists, poets, writers, etc. Tell me how
that would feel."
You remember that song F-E-E-L-I-N-G-s that droned on and on. Your statement is as valuable as that nauseating song.
If your chosen profession is music, then Band is the class for you. However, a vast majority (I'm talking 99.995%) of people do not need this in life. The entire purpose of school is to prepare youngsters to be able to get a job and earn an income.
Have you been to a museum lately? This is 'art'? What about the radio, that is 'music'. I submit that the quality of art, music and poetry have suffered horribly ever since 'Educators' got involved. Again, "Those who can't, teach".
Mozart, Beethoven, Socrates, Di Vinci, and thousands of others didn't attend a single day of public school 'art'. Yet, their inspired work endures.
Is a Doctor worth more than a poet? Absolutely.
What good does a Nobel Laureate in Poetry do for the world? I submit that his contribution has less impact to our life, than a bovine's gastric contribution to Global Warming.
You remember that song F-E-E-L-I-N-G-s that droned on and on. Your statement is as valuable as that nauseating song.
If your chosen profession is music, then Band is the class for you. However, a vast majority (I'm talking 99.995%) of people do not need this in life. The entire purpose of school is to prepare youngsters to be able to get a job and earn an income.
Have you been to a museum lately? This is 'art'? What about the radio, that is 'music'. I submit that the quality of art, music and poetry have suffered horribly ever since 'Educators' got involved. Again, "Those who can't, teach".
Mozart, Beethoven, Socrates, Di Vinci, and thousands of others didn't attend a single day of public school 'art'. Yet, their inspired work endures.
Is a Doctor worth more than a poet? Absolutely.
What good does a Nobel Laureate in Poetry do for the world? I submit that his contribution has less impact to our life, than a bovine's gastric contribution to Global Warming.
Comments continue below
Or, put another way ... | 3:30 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008
"Most teachers are off mid June to mid August (two month ). They need this
to make enough $$ to afford to be a teacher the other 10 months of the
year."
Rephrased, in honest words:
"Most teachers are off 2 months a year, so we don't make as much as the rest of you. So, we think the state government should put a gun to your head, and rob money you earned and give that money to us. We work harder than you, we are smarter than you, and we deserve it more than you do; if you don't believe it, just ask us again"
Bottom line:
You knew what the job paid when you went to college. I knew what my career paid when I signed up for classes, that's why I took the HARD classes. Now my life is relatively easier than yours. If you made a poor decision, that was YOUR decision to make.
I have yet to see a teacher with a gun to his head, forcing him to remain a teacher.
Rephrased, in honest words:
"Most teachers are off 2 months a year, so we don't make as much as the rest of you. So, we think the state government should put a gun to your head, and rob money you earned and give that money to us. We work harder than you, we are smarter than you, and we deserve it more than you do; if you don't believe it, just ask us again"
Bottom line:
You knew what the job paid when you went to college. I knew what my career paid when I signed up for classes, that's why I took the HARD classes. Now my life is relatively easier than yours. If you made a poor decision, that was YOUR decision to make.
I have yet to see a teacher with a gun to his head, forcing him to remain a teacher.
Starting teacher salaries | 4:58 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008
YOU DO THE MATH!!!
A starting teacher earns roughly 30K per year for a 4 year degree here in Utah with a class size of 25-30 students.
A manager at Wendy's with no degree here in Utah makes roughly 32K per year.
A starting teacher in Wyoming earns 40K+ per year for a 4 year degree with a class size of 18-25 students. (Personally, if I was my family's sole breadwinner, I would move out of state. Lucklily, I am not!)
While I agree that teachers deserve merit pay, very little in the teaching profession stay around past 5 years to get good at the profession. Why should teachers stay in public school? Oversized classrooms, little parental involvement,poor attitudes of the public in general.
For those who think that history is a unecessary subject...Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Do we need another World War, Holocaust, Or U.S. Depression to prove my point?
A starting teacher earns roughly 30K per year for a 4 year degree here in Utah with a class size of 25-30 students.
A manager at Wendy's with no degree here in Utah makes roughly 32K per year.
A starting teacher in Wyoming earns 40K+ per year for a 4 year degree with a class size of 18-25 students. (Personally, if I was my family's sole breadwinner, I would move out of state. Lucklily, I am not!)
While I agree that teachers deserve merit pay, very little in the teaching profession stay around past 5 years to get good at the profession. Why should teachers stay in public school? Oversized classrooms, little parental involvement,poor attitudes of the public in general.
For those who think that history is a unecessary subject...Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Do we need another World War, Holocaust, Or U.S. Depression to prove my point?
Still A Spurned Teacher | 5:36 p.m. Feb. 21, 2008
Oops! Don't want you all to attack me because of a typo. I meant to type
colleagues (coworkers) not colleges (the place of higher learning) although I am
quite sure that you'll pick me apart nonetheless.
bhparkman | 5:58 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Here's the problem. We homeschool. We, as homeschooling parents rarely get
to express our opinions on education issues, and we don't get pay raises.
In fact, we lose more money everytime the Department of Education or the whiners
at the UEA want more money they didn't earn. Truth be told; that's OUR
money they want!
A tax cut is just one of the ways we homeschooling families can get ourselves a pay raise. Homeschooling families always have one spouse; usually a wonderful, dedicated wife at home to educate the kids. And they do this work without going to the media every few months to complain about how they're not getting enough compensation through confiscation of other folks' money!
We're overtaxed as it is because of the education system that has not increased the quality of education it provides. in 1895, an 8th grade education was similar to an Associates Degree in General Education. Today it's no better than a 4th grade education.
The UEA doesn't deserve more money. We homeschooling families deserve our money back!
A tax cut is just one of the ways we homeschooling families can get ourselves a pay raise. Homeschooling families always have one spouse; usually a wonderful, dedicated wife at home to educate the kids. And they do this work without going to the media every few months to complain about how they're not getting enough compensation through confiscation of other folks' money!
We're overtaxed as it is because of the education system that has not increased the quality of education it provides. in 1895, an 8th grade education was similar to an Associates Degree in General Education. Today it's no better than a 4th grade education.
The UEA doesn't deserve more money. We homeschooling families deserve our money back!
Let's talk money. | 7:48 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Teachers have various political views, they come in various sizes, shapes,
colors and denominations.
But they all agree that they need, deserve or are somehow entitled to more money - no matter where they live, or what they make.
No one else would dare suggest that because they are somehow entitled to more money - everyone else has to live with less. I'd like more money, so I think everyone else in the district should be forced (under penalty of law) to take money out of their paycheck - and cheerfully give it to me.
In return, next year I will do exactly what I have done this year. No more, no less. I will again insist that I am entitled to more money yet again, and demand that everyone else simply learn to live with less.
I will fail to mention that I have a retirement plan that no one in the 'real world' is entitled too, or the fact that my health insurance is second to none, and the fact that no matter how poorly I perform, I cannot be fired. And somehow the fact that my annual work schedule is ~68% of what everyone else works.
But they all agree that they need, deserve or are somehow entitled to more money - no matter where they live, or what they make.
No one else would dare suggest that because they are somehow entitled to more money - everyone else has to live with less. I'd like more money, so I think everyone else in the district should be forced (under penalty of law) to take money out of their paycheck - and cheerfully give it to me.
In return, next year I will do exactly what I have done this year. No more, no less. I will again insist that I am entitled to more money yet again, and demand that everyone else simply learn to live with less.
I will fail to mention that I have a retirement plan that no one in the 'real world' is entitled too, or the fact that my health insurance is second to none, and the fact that no matter how poorly I perform, I cannot be fired. And somehow the fact that my annual work schedule is ~68% of what everyone else works.
Blue | 8:38 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Finally, some substance we can chew on. $30K per year for a contract that asks
you to work 7 hours per day for 183 days. Thats $23.42 per hour worked. Is
that a good wage? I'd suggest that there are alot of people who don't
come close to that who think it's a great starting wage. Those who make
$50K per year are making $39.03 per hour. Maybe if you worked a full 2080 hours
per year it would help. Thats it, make teachers work year round.
RE: bhparkman | 8:55 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
There is so much difference between homeschooling and public education.
In public ed a teacher does not get to pick what types of students they teach. We get all types of students in our classrooms, from children with severe disabilities to students who are gifted there is usually a wide gap.
I am at awe with women who can stay home and school their children. Not everyone has that opportunity however. I am a mother of six, and due to health problems with my children my world changed drastically from being a stay at home mother to a full time student soon to be educator. With that said, we can't judge others for the choices they make. Staying at home is not possible for everyone.
(Please don't argue the you should sacrifice more, been there done that.)
Homeschooling would be the ideal, but not everyone can afford to do that. With the costs of fuel, and other basics continually going up in most homes both parents have to work. Should we deny quality education to these children? Doing so will only add to the downward spiral of society.
In public ed a teacher does not get to pick what types of students they teach. We get all types of students in our classrooms, from children with severe disabilities to students who are gifted there is usually a wide gap.
I am at awe with women who can stay home and school their children. Not everyone has that opportunity however. I am a mother of six, and due to health problems with my children my world changed drastically from being a stay at home mother to a full time student soon to be educator. With that said, we can't judge others for the choices they make. Staying at home is not possible for everyone.
(Please don't argue the you should sacrifice more, been there done that.)
Homeschooling would be the ideal, but not everyone can afford to do that. With the costs of fuel, and other basics continually going up in most homes both parents have to work. Should we deny quality education to these children? Doing so will only add to the downward spiral of society.
RE: TO ALL POSTING TEACHERS 3 | 9:09 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Dude, its a comment board, not an English or grammar contest.
A teachers wish list | 9:16 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Our benefits package is not as good as it used to be. For all of you who do not
want to give teachers the raise they deserve... maybe you will feel better
hiring more teachers from Mexico to teach your children the American
standard.
The point is... we are in a crisis here in the state. Here's my wish list:
I wish we could work out a merit system to weed out the "bad" teachers.
I as a teacher voted for the vouchers and was disappointed when it didn't pass.
I wish we could have the school system privatized, however, how would families with little money be able to afford it? What would happen to children with special needs?- Especially when private schools get to pick and choose their students.
I wish I could get more parental involvement.
I wish parents would turn off the t.v. and read more.
I wish I could kick students out of the classroom who don't want to be there.
I wish we could come up with a tiered system like europe with a college track & a trade track.
I guess I will keep on wishing....
The point is... we are in a crisis here in the state. Here's my wish list:
I wish we could work out a merit system to weed out the "bad" teachers.
I as a teacher voted for the vouchers and was disappointed when it didn't pass.
I wish we could have the school system privatized, however, how would families with little money be able to afford it? What would happen to children with special needs?- Especially when private schools get to pick and choose their students.
I wish I could get more parental involvement.
I wish parents would turn off the t.v. and read more.
I wish I could kick students out of the classroom who don't want to be there.
I wish we could come up with a tiered system like europe with a college track & a trade track.
I guess I will keep on wishing....
RE:RE: I am not a teacher | 9:18 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
You state you are at work late however, if you make six figures as you claim
then you must be getting paid overtime. Teachers that work more than their
contract time get zero compensation for that time. Once again someone not in
education who thinks they know it all. Why don't you let a bunch of
educators come to your job and weigh in on what it is you do. You couldn't
take it. In fact you can't even handle simple rebuttals posted here. POOR
BABY!!
Re:Blue | 9:46 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Not fair.
You are injecting fact, rational thinking and hard numbers to a game that is played by guilt, whining and threats.
Repeat "It's for the Children" until you puke, then repeat. That way, you too, can go by your feelings and not those nasty little facts that just get in the way.
You are injecting fact, rational thinking and hard numbers to a game that is played by guilt, whining and threats.
Repeat "It's for the Children" until you puke, then repeat. That way, you too, can go by your feelings and not those nasty little facts that just get in the way.
Science Teacher | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
A starting teacher makes about (maybe less) than 30k. With that 189 days of
work:
1) You take home work. I take several hours home each week and will spend most of my Saturday doing work. I've already told my sick wife that I can't help her because I'm so far behind.
2) You stay after or come early. I'm here sometimes an hour early and leave late whenver my kids need it or I have labs.
3) Conferences all the friggin time. I have 2.5 weeks of conference in my "summer". That summer is shorter than you think when you have classes and early meetings, etc.
Here's a question for you: if teaching were such an easy and cushy job, why is there such a huge shortage of teachers?
Answers:
It is hard. 50% of teachers are gone by year 5. They just can't take it.
It doesn't pay enough to live on. Many teachers have second or third jobs. I know one that has 5.
Whine all you want. Teachers are leaving Utah and going elsewhere. Want them back? You need to pay or keep your kids at home.
1) You take home work. I take several hours home each week and will spend most of my Saturday doing work. I've already told my sick wife that I can't help her because I'm so far behind.
2) You stay after or come early. I'm here sometimes an hour early and leave late whenver my kids need it or I have labs.
3) Conferences all the friggin time. I have 2.5 weeks of conference in my "summer". That summer is shorter than you think when you have classes and early meetings, etc.
Here's a question for you: if teaching were such an easy and cushy job, why is there such a huge shortage of teachers?
Answers:
It is hard. 50% of teachers are gone by year 5. They just can't take it.
It doesn't pay enough to live on. Many teachers have second or third jobs. I know one that has 5.
Whine all you want. Teachers are leaving Utah and going elsewhere. Want them back? You need to pay or keep your kids at home.
Science teacher | 11:31 a.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Blue:
What were you doing at 8 p.m. last night?
What were you doing at 2 a.m. this morning?
What are you planning on doing all day Saturday?
I'm working.
Bet that doesn't figure into your 189 days/year. That's what I'm required by contract. That's not what it takes to do the job, and nowhere near what it takes to do it well.
Get a clue. Spend a week, (even a day) in a classroom with your kid and see the world from our eyes.
What were you doing at 8 p.m. last night?
What were you doing at 2 a.m. this morning?
What are you planning on doing all day Saturday?
I'm working.
Bet that doesn't figure into your 189 days/year. That's what I'm required by contract. That's not what it takes to do the job, and nowhere near what it takes to do it well.
Get a clue. Spend a week, (even a day) in a classroom with your kid and see the world from our eyes.
Anonymous | 12:19 p.m. Feb. 22, 2008
I married into a family of women with traditional jobs. One is a nurse, the
rest are teachers.
When my MIL tried to convince me it was a good idea to forget abuot my engineering degree and consider becoming a teacher because I'd be "home" with my children in the afternons, holidays and breaks, I thought it sounded good! But that is no reason to teach.
Pay the good teachers anything they want.
Pay the teachers of convenience what they deserve.
What is so hard about that?
When my MIL tried to convince me it was a good idea to forget abuot my engineering degree and consider becoming a teacher because I'd be "home" with my children in the afternons, holidays and breaks, I thought it sounded good! But that is no reason to teach.
Pay the good teachers anything they want.
Pay the teachers of convenience what they deserve.
What is so hard about that?
bhparkman | 2:09 p.m. Feb. 22, 2008
The state literally takes the money from my paycheck and through taxation under
threat of imprisonment if I don't allow them to, and hand it over to a
massive bureaucacy that claims to be "for the children."
If we had that money back, anyone could afford to either homeschool or private school their children. Mostly because those who are taxed on the higher brackets can afford to pay employees better.
Theft does not make a 'loving' and 'caring' education system. Confiscation of our hard-earned funds is not the way to broadly educate children who are not ours.
This is what my family and I want; our tax money back for the good of our children, and so folks can care for their own children by themselves. Freedom, not socialism makes a better society.
If we had that money back, anyone could afford to either homeschool or private school their children. Mostly because those who are taxed on the higher brackets can afford to pay employees better.
Theft does not make a 'loving' and 'caring' education system. Confiscation of our hard-earned funds is not the way to broadly educate children who are not ours.
This is what my family and I want; our tax money back for the good of our children, and so folks can care for their own children by themselves. Freedom, not socialism makes a better society.
re:bhparkman | 2:46 p.m. Feb. 22, 2008
In your Utopian democratic society who will make sure that children are taught
the benchmarks of what needs to be taught?
Not everyone can be homeschooled! Not all those who are homeschooled get a great education. (I know of a number of families where their children were homeschooled, and the children do not read or write well.)
I am also a conservative, but a realist as well.
I agree that the school system is broken, but unless the great minds of our country come together to "fix" the problem, everything else will be just a "pipedream".
Not everyone can be homeschooled! Not all those who are homeschooled get a great education. (I know of a number of families where their children were homeschooled, and the children do not read or write well.)
I am also a conservative, but a realist as well.
I agree that the school system is broken, but unless the great minds of our country come together to "fix" the problem, everything else will be just a "pipedream".
bhparkman | 3:59 p.m. Feb. 22, 2008
Many educators claim that my stolen money goes to the UEA and Districts as an
"Investment in our children." Well, ok. Let's treat it like an
actual investment.
I'm demanding proof children are learning more in reading, writing, and mathematics. I also want proof that that our children have the highest test scores worldwide, conduct themselves with flawless manners, and can demonstrate a highly-marketable job skill. This should prove that my "investment" is used properly.
Also, since this is an actual monetary "investment", then I also expect to receive a minimum 4% monetary dividend on an annual basis. After all, this is an "investment" of my hard-earned money; a dividend is expected.
Since the Department of Education is not capable of this, then I want my taxes cut!
I'm demanding proof children are learning more in reading, writing, and mathematics. I also want proof that that our children have the highest test scores worldwide, conduct themselves with flawless manners, and can demonstrate a highly-marketable job skill. This should prove that my "investment" is used properly.
Also, since this is an actual monetary "investment", then I also expect to receive a minimum 4% monetary dividend on an annual basis. After all, this is an "investment" of my hard-earned money; a dividend is expected.
Since the Department of Education is not capable of this, then I want my taxes cut!
RE: bhparkman | 1:50 a.m. Feb. 23, 2008
These are children we are talking about, not a business deal. If every child
came from a loving caring home environment, were all equally intelligent,and if
all teaching methods worked the same on every child, then we might be able to
prove your point.
The fact is since there is so much inequality out there you will never be able to prove your point.
Here is an example a little off topic: Many people pay tithing to the LDS Church. These funds in part are used to pay for the church education system. Not every seminary student graduates with perfect attendance, missionary service, or temple marriage. Where did that investment go?
The fact is since there is so much inequality out there you will never be able to prove your point.
Here is an example a little off topic: Many people pay tithing to the LDS Church. These funds in part are used to pay for the church education system. Not every seminary student graduates with perfect attendance, missionary service, or temple marriage. Where did that investment go?
Don't forget Higher Ed | 10:40 a.m. Feb. 23, 2008
People tend to forget the college professors who put their lives on hold while
attaining advanced degrees, only to find out that the State of Utah may still
pay only 30K-40K. In fact, almost half of Snow College full-time faculty could
make more money as High School teacers in Central Utah, the poorest area of the
State.
Hold the legislator accountable for everyone in Utah's education system, including Higher Ed.
Hold the legislator accountable for everyone in Utah's education system, including Higher Ed.
re:bhparkman | 3:59 p.m. Feb. 22 | 11:25 p.m. Feb. 23, 2008
Wow, a challenge like that, to get those types of results, should only be taken
on with the best natural resources.
We need a person to stand at the door at each school and only let the to 10% of the flawless students through.
The rest, the parents can train them at thei place of employment.
I think working with that type of business mentality, we would be able to get all the scores where we need to be.
(BTW, sorry if your child has issues, didn't get enough sleep, is angry, hungry sick, just had a brother leave for the military, or having girl or boy issues on Monday. Keep them home and home school him. Only flawless students from now on
We need a person to stand at the door at each school and only let the to 10% of the flawless students through.
The rest, the parents can train them at thei place of employment.
I think working with that type of business mentality, we would be able to get all the scores where we need to be.
(BTW, sorry if your child has issues, didn't get enough sleep, is angry, hungry sick, just had a brother leave for the military, or having girl or boy issues on Monday. Keep them home and home school him. Only flawless students from now on
Told 'Ya | 9:43 a.m. Feb. 24, 2008
You could have had vouchers....
bhparkman | 11:25 p.m. Feb. 24, 2008
How much do districts spend per child? Last I heard the total per year was
roughly $7,000 per student each year in this state. It could be more or less.
We spent $47.91 for just THIS YEAR for one of our children. That's it! The vast majority of materials are available online for free! The rest was stuff bought at Wal-Mart for cheap.
And yes, our kids are testing at higher than average levels for reading and comprehension. The kids� social skills are quite good. In fact, I think they're better than the public educated kids. When we start mathematics next year I'm positive they'll do great.
Homeschooled kids usually do better than the average public schooled kids. Just look up the statistics for yourselves! I can't put any links here, but just do a simple search.
Cut our taxes and education can be better. I certainly don't want to keep paying for such a broken system when our money can go to more important things.
We spent $47.91 for just THIS YEAR for one of our children. That's it! The vast majority of materials are available online for free! The rest was stuff bought at Wal-Mart for cheap.
And yes, our kids are testing at higher than average levels for reading and comprehension. The kids� social skills are quite good. In fact, I think they're better than the public educated kids. When we start mathematics next year I'm positive they'll do great.
Homeschooled kids usually do better than the average public schooled kids. Just look up the statistics for yourselves! I can't put any links here, but just do a simple search.
Cut our taxes and education can be better. I certainly don't want to keep paying for such a broken system when our money can go to more important things.
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The market may value one job over the other, but in a school, all have equal merit (or should). One thing that is tearing apart schools is NCLB and the horrible emphasis it places on only a couple of areas. Our kids are being deprived of learning so many great learning opportunities because the only thing that matters anymore is a high score in science or math. Don't get me wrong. We need a huge emphasis on those areas. We're falling behing in the worldwide aspect in those two areas.
All I'm saying is that we need to not lose sight of the forest here.
Comparing a doctor's career choice to his grade in band is apples and oranges. What about a composer? Get an A in English and win the Nobel for poetry? Those sound like better comparisons. You're just following the stereotypical assumption that doctors are somehow more valuable than other jobs. They're not. Try living in a country with no artists, poets, writers, etc. Tell me how that would feel.