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Issue of day: cutting taxes or raising teacher pay
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Heatstreet | 3:40 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
A 2, 500 pay raise for teachers last year?? I don't think so. My fiancee,
who is a 5th grade school teacher, is receiving only $20.00 more per month on
her check statement. That equals $240.00 a year...just a little less than
$2,500, I'd say.
Bob G | 5:11 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
There's no reason we can't have both. Every year there is a
substantial excess in the state funds and it increased every year by the method
of taxation of properties. Reform the taxing methods of county's taxing
personal property to help people to afford their homes, especially those on
fixed incomes and retired. We need a grandfather taxing system that has been
imposed in California that does not penalize individuals with ficticous property
valuations on property that is not for sale or being offered for sale. It would
probably be in the best interest of our teachers and their pay to remove them
from the education funding system. Put teachers and their pay and benefits under
the control of the state as any other state employee. The board of education
uses teacher pay as an excuse to hide graft, fraud, and corruption in the board
of education and its system. The board of education should oversee schools,
supplies, and building needs, not state paid employees and their saleries. Put
teachers and pay in the hands of the state. Then all colleges and university
professors pay not be included in any taxpayer funding, and make it criminal to
do otherwise.
Comments continue below
jr | 5:38 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Our legislative leaders are hyprocrits and liars. Maybe in future they should
wait until the actual money is in the pot before announcing they have the loot
False numbers last year, false numbers this year. Pay the teachers and forget
your petty lobbyists and filling their pockets. Start making the the
corporations pay their share of the taxes because obviously them getting the
breaks aren't helping the economy. They make profits and pay low low
salaries. Time to ship the illegals back so they don't drain our school
budgets also
Pay teachers more or suffer | 6:17 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I am involved in math education reform in Utah. Math education has gone
considerably downhill during the past several years. Reading education for a
time also suffered as our education community tried whole language instead of
phonix. All this is possible and happens because the best and brightest in
large part shun the teaching / education profession.
The best and brightest do not choose to teach simply because it pays so little compared to what they could earn going into other fields.
Utah has already had tax cuts. If we are to attract brighter people on average into teaching, we need to pay them more.
Let me repeat, your children are recieving a substandard education because your elected representatives in years past have chosen to be penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to teacher pay.
Math if taught correctly teaches our future scientists and engineers to be able solve very difficult problems. Math has been dumbed down and it no longer does in large part what it is supposed to do. We need to make teaching a better paying profession.
The best and brightest do not choose to teach simply because it pays so little compared to what they could earn going into other fields.
Utah has already had tax cuts. If we are to attract brighter people on average into teaching, we need to pay them more.
Let me repeat, your children are recieving a substandard education because your elected representatives in years past have chosen to be penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to teacher pay.
Math if taught correctly teaches our future scientists and engineers to be able solve very difficult problems. Math has been dumbed down and it no longer does in large part what it is supposed to do. We need to make teaching a better paying profession.
Utah Republican | 6:38 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
It's time to raise taxes, increase teacher pay, and reduce class size. If
the typical Utah family paid another $2,000 per year in taxes we could give
teachers the pay increase and the class size reduction they deserve.
Anonymous | 6:58 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I am surprised no one said give us the tax breaks you guys promised. That is
highly encouraging.
I too did not see the 'impact' of the raises or last year's bonus. By the time I got my 1K bonus it had been demoted to $50 dollars because I had switched schools. I was lucky to get fifty I was told.
I too did not see the 'impact' of the raises or last year's bonus. By the time I got my 1K bonus it had been demoted to $50 dollars because I had switched schools. I was lucky to get fifty I was told.
A teacher in Utah | 6:59 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
With the $2,500, it is all dependent on which district you work for. In Alpine
School District, teachers did actually receive the full 2,500 (but other areas
were cut back funding-wise). Other districts absorbed most of the pay increase
and did not go through as many funding cuts for teachers, causing teachers to
receive much less than the 2,500. It all depends on the district once the monies
are dispersed.
Proud Investigation Teacher | 7:14 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Yeah, math is being dumbed down. Thats why our kindergarteners are learning how
to do geometry and prove theorems in our school. Thats why our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th
graders are doing algebra loooooong before I was ever taught in school. To get
the same education our students are receiving in school today, I had to wait
until Jr. High. But, wait...all this can't be possible because, the kids
that are learning these things are in the Evil Alpine School District where they
are are being taught the "inept" Math Investigations.
You all complain that education is being dumbed down, yet when teachers turn to research based instruction, such as investigation, you all balk at it because you don't understand it. Come into my classroom and see if your students are really being dumbed down. Find out the truth for yourselves instead of listening to those who have their own personal agendas in mind. I welcome those who have an open mind to visit my class and see the things that I get to witness daily. My students are among the brightest because of Investigations!
Now everybody stick your heads in the sand and chant "Not Listening" over and over.
You all complain that education is being dumbed down, yet when teachers turn to research based instruction, such as investigation, you all balk at it because you don't understand it. Come into my classroom and see if your students are really being dumbed down. Find out the truth for yourselves instead of listening to those who have their own personal agendas in mind. I welcome those who have an open mind to visit my class and see the things that I get to witness daily. My students are among the brightest because of Investigations!
Now everybody stick your heads in the sand and chant "Not Listening" over and over.
Shame on Huntsman | 7:30 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Increasing teacher pay isn't going to do squat in boosting student
performance. Huntsman had his chance, to vocally and politically support
vouchers, yet he hid in the closet with his tail between his legs. The only way
to improve education is to marketize the industry. NO industry with unions and
fixed pay has ever proven itself to be more productive as compared to a market
economy. The education industry is steeped in socialism and it simply
doesn't work.
Huntsman now wants to dole out more money, our money, to the tribe that defeated school choice, the only mechanism to make education better.
If you look at other places that spend 10K or more, the scores are not going up. The auto industry is dying in America. Why? Well,they had to pay line workers 30.00 per hour. Have you checked the price of a new American made car lately. The only way American cars improved was due to competition from Japan. Remember when American cars had to basically have every part replaced at 50K miles??
Why is education any different than other industries? It is not. The same principles apply.
Huntsman now wants to dole out more money, our money, to the tribe that defeated school choice, the only mechanism to make education better.
If you look at other places that spend 10K or more, the scores are not going up. The auto industry is dying in America. Why? Well,they had to pay line workers 30.00 per hour. Have you checked the price of a new American made car lately. The only way American cars improved was due to competition from Japan. Remember when American cars had to basically have every part replaced at 50K miles??
Why is education any different than other industries? It is not. The same principles apply.
cb | 7:38 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Teachers receive a good income when you consider the hours worked and the
security they have. when has there ever been a layoff. More money to a union
will not help education.
re: pay teachers or suffer. . . | 7:39 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
better pay = better teachers = better education?
I don't think so.
I graduated with a BS degree and considered teaching. It wasn't the pay that scared me away, it was the extra 60 hours and extra student loans to get my teaching degree and certificate!
Bill Gates couldn't teach in our high schools. Neither could John Huntsman, nor Stephen King.
There are lots of people who might be interested in the career, no matter the pay, but they don't want to go through the crap to get there.
I don't think so.
I graduated with a BS degree and considered teaching. It wasn't the pay that scared me away, it was the extra 60 hours and extra student loans to get my teaching degree and certificate!
Bill Gates couldn't teach in our high schools. Neither could John Huntsman, nor Stephen King.
There are lots of people who might be interested in the career, no matter the pay, but they don't want to go through the crap to get there.
Solve the Problem! | 7:52 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Privatize Education and these problems will be solved! Government run programs
are the most inefficient programs in the nation! Goverment employees are
typically not the best & brightest either because the pay stinks.
Privatizing education creates competition in the marketplace. Competition
drives efficiencies as well as increases in salaries. But all y'all
teachers voted "no" to the voucher program which would have been the
first step in promoting privatization. As long as education is government run,
it will be inefficient and problematic.
Paul | 7:51 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I still have not seen any article that clarifies the $2,500 pay raise... This
amount should read $5,000 as the legislature required last years $2,500 to be
placed on Districts Salary Schedules and did not tie this amount to the WPU.
That $2,500 was promised to be on-going but it is never mentioned in any news
articles. Thus, last years $2,500 needs to be fully funded first.. and then the
debate can begin on this years $2,500 or $1,500 whatever that might be.
Technology Teacher | 7:53 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I believe it is about time to get out of the profession and go to work in a job
that is sufficient to support my family and me. That is the trend in Utah;
isn't it?
Investigations Math | 8:01 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
With the new math, students are learning what is called geometry earlier. Here
is the rub. The geometry the students learn by the time they graduate high
school is a very dumbed down version. Geometry is mostly just the presentation
and learning of geometric facts, proofs have been considerably de-emphasized.
It is the proofs that teaches students to problem solve and think logically.
If you want to make a point about how math is changing for the good, I would hardly present investigation math as a shining example. In investigations math, very little time is spent on learning to do math by hand. As a result kids hardly know how to solve a problem without resorting to a calculator or collaborating with their fellow students. Doing calculations by hand helps students develop a number sense, which is lacking in todays students. Investigatins math is also very weak in teaching students how to add, subtract multiply and divide fractions.
This is what I am talking about, unless we get smarter people to come into the education field, we will continue to have substandard math education. We need to raise teacher pay and enforce higher standards on our educators.
If you want to make a point about how math is changing for the good, I would hardly present investigation math as a shining example. In investigations math, very little time is spent on learning to do math by hand. As a result kids hardly know how to solve a problem without resorting to a calculator or collaborating with their fellow students. Doing calculations by hand helps students develop a number sense, which is lacking in todays students. Investigatins math is also very weak in teaching students how to add, subtract multiply and divide fractions.
This is what I am talking about, unless we get smarter people to come into the education field, we will continue to have substandard math education. We need to raise teacher pay and enforce higher standards on our educators.
Kevin | 7:55 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
This I know, there is a huge teacher shortage that will continue to worsen if
teacher pay does not increase. Especially when our nation is suffering an
increase in the cost of living and inflation.
Pay and Risk | 7:58 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I don't know what the "right" level of pay is for Utah teachers,
but one thing we ought to consider when determining teacher pay is the
non-monetary benefits of being a teacher. Most of those benefits have been
beaten to death in the past, but one that keeps getting overlooked is that
teachers face a significantly lower job risk than almost any other profession.
When the economy turns south, as it might do this year, a lot of people lose
their jobs and have to find new ones. When was the last time you heard a school
district talk about laying off teachers because of the economy. Yes, teachers
in Utah don't make much, but it's almost a guaranty that they will
have their jobs from year to year (irrespective of their particular teaching
quality, I might add). Again, I don't know that the high job security
makes up for the low wages, but we ought to at least consider that job security
when we talk about what teachers make.
Pay the teachers | 7:59 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Welchers.
Paul | 8:12 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Utah Republican!! You do not represent your party well. You want to raise taxes
and help socialism thrive with the statement you placed on this blog. Shame on
you. We do not need any more tax increases. What we need is for the money to be
spent wisely...
Anonymous | 8:15 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
LISTEN!
I DON'T WANT A TAX CUT. I WANT MY KIDS' TEACHERS TO STICK AROUND LONGER THAN 3 YEARS. PAY THEM MORE. PAY THEM A LOT MORE!
To the guy saying teaching is like every other profession...exactly. If you don't pay them well then we will need to outsource their jobs to india or mexico.
I DON'T WANT A TAX CUT. I WANT MY KIDS' TEACHERS TO STICK AROUND LONGER THAN 3 YEARS. PAY THEM MORE. PAY THEM A LOT MORE!
To the guy saying teaching is like every other profession...exactly. If you don't pay them well then we will need to outsource their jobs to india or mexico.
re cb | 7:38 a.m. Pay for Qual | 8:19 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
If teachers are paid a competitive wage, why are we dealing with a teacher
shortage? Why is it we have to keep putting up with substandard teaching
methods such as whole language and investigations math? Too many teachers
sincerely believe in these methods, in spite of the fact that they produce
students who can�t read or do math very well.
If we would quit being so penny wise and pound foolish, we could attract a better class of people into the teaching profession that wouldn't be snookered by every passing fad in education.
We need to attract people into the profession that have it in them to become engineers, or real mathematicians, or scientists or successful businessmen. If we continue to keep teacher standards low and pay low, we will keep getting more of the same.
How wise is it for a farmer to use his poorest seed to plant next year�s crop, and eat the best seed? That is what we are doing by paying teachers so little and not demanding more of them.
If we would quit being so penny wise and pound foolish, we could attract a better class of people into the teaching profession that wouldn't be snookered by every passing fad in education.
We need to attract people into the profession that have it in them to become engineers, or real mathematicians, or scientists or successful businessmen. If we continue to keep teacher standards low and pay low, we will keep getting more of the same.
How wise is it for a farmer to use his poorest seed to plant next year�s crop, and eat the best seed? That is what we are doing by paying teachers so little and not demanding more of them.
Reality Check | 8:23 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Everyone's harping about the $2,500 pay raise for teachers... which took
how many years to pull off? Teachers in Utah are still woefully below the
national average for teacher wages, and this on top of the highest class load in
North America!
The teachers (not the administrators), and only the teachers need a graduated pay raise put in place over the next 5 years aimed at bringing their pay to the middle ground of the national pay average for American teachers. Doing that enables Utah government to plan their budgets accordingly - call it the Rewarding Teaching Excellence bill and get it passed.
The child population in Utah is still exploding and more teachers are going to be required, but they need to be paid fairly, especially since there's a strong move to put teachers on a more year-round based teaching schedule. Do the math, on a per-hour basis they need to be paid a fair wage for the days of teaching (and attending those damn administrative-stroking day and week-end meeting outside of teaching days).
Do the math... and quit being so unfair in how teachers are treated while giving greater consideration to other state employee groups because they're non-union!
The teachers (not the administrators), and only the teachers need a graduated pay raise put in place over the next 5 years aimed at bringing their pay to the middle ground of the national pay average for American teachers. Doing that enables Utah government to plan their budgets accordingly - call it the Rewarding Teaching Excellence bill and get it passed.
The child population in Utah is still exploding and more teachers are going to be required, but they need to be paid fairly, especially since there's a strong move to put teachers on a more year-round based teaching schedule. Do the math, on a per-hour basis they need to be paid a fair wage for the days of teaching (and attending those damn administrative-stroking day and week-end meeting outside of teaching days).
Do the math... and quit being so unfair in how teachers are treated while giving greater consideration to other state employee groups because they're non-union!
sanevoice | 8:24 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I am amazed that people still want to justify teacher pay being low. It
doesn't matter what the other benefits may or may not be. Let me be very
clear on this. THERE IS A TEACHER SHORTAGE THAT IS ONLY GETTING WORSE. ONE OF
THE MAIN REASONS IS LOW PAY. EITHER FIX IT OR WATCH OUR CHILDREN BEING
"TAUGHT" BY COMPLETELY UNQUALIFIED SUBSTITUTES WITH 35 OTHERS STUDENTS
IN THE CLASS. This is not a difficult concept. Wouldn't that $50 tax cut
you might get be better spent on our childrens future? We are not at a point
where we are spending money to raise test scores. We are at a point where we
need to spend money to have enough teachers to keep test scores where they are.
to cb | 8:24 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Lets consider the hours worked. Many teachers get to school at 7 or 7:30 am and
don't leave until 4 or 5 pm. Lunch is usually 30 minutes from the time the
bell rings for students to go to lunch until it rings again to start the next
class. Oh but they get their summers off you say. Says who. Teachers have
conferences, workshops, etc. to attend. Maybe they don't have to go but if
they don't it is going to be tough to re certify every 5 years. Teachers
must continually take classes etc. to meet the states recertification
requirements. Then there is the planning and preparing that occurs each summer.
Maybe you should think again about teachers being well paid for the hours
worked because by my book they are barely making minimum wage.
Your grandma | 8:26 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Can recognize grammar errors in the headline. No wonder kids cannot write
correctly. Fix your headline grammar.
Chris | 8:31 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Our teachers definitely need more pay. Our class sizes need to be smaller. And
we need more high quality teachers. If my taxes would go to make these things
happen, I'd be happy to continue paying them at this level. My concern is,
the funds will be siphoned off or earmarked for other things instead.
Tax system broken. | 8:35 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Stop giving tax breaks to families who have more kids. Why should a family with
6 kids basically pay no taxes while a family with one kid or no kids pay the tax
burden. Their should be a per kid tax to families with more than 2 kids. Society
shouldnt be reponsible for paying for someone elses kids. The more kids you
have, the higher the taxes should be. Cant afford to have 5 kids? Then dont have
them! Its simple. Less kids = more money for teachers and smaller class sizes.
Re: Shame on Huntsman | 8:47 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
It didn't take long for the voucher issue to pop up. Dude this is about
higher pay for teachers period. Sorry your private school didn't get
govenment funded since your so against government involvement.
tax cuts good | 8:49 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
ok average teacher with 7 years approx 40,000 a year plus career ladder money.
So all you math people figure this 40,000 a year for approx. 8 months working
730-330 with a payed lunch plus if you teach high school you get a prep period 1
and half hours to prepare ask 10 teachers what they do on there prep 8 of them
don't prepare for anything but what they have to do after work. 730-330
minus approx. 2 hours gives us a 6 hour work day. 6 hours a day 8 months a year
40,000 sound pretty good pay to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Phil | 8:59 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I have been hearing a lot of problems with property owners who live out of
state. One huge reason we have so much of that is low property tax. Most of
our tax burden is state income tax. Property is not just an investment, does
not promote responsibility if you can buy and then sit on it.
re tax cuts good | 8:49 a.m | 9:08 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
You say that teacher pay sounds pretty good to you? If this is the case, why is
there a shortage in Utah projected to get worse? Remember teaching requires a
university degree. You can't compare teacher pay with what the general
population makes. Anybody who would consider teaching as a profession would
also consider going getting a business degree, or science, or engineering,
etc.
Teacher pay has to be competitive with each of these fields or many of the people who would otherwise like to become teachers will not.
Teacher pay has to be competitive with each of these fields or many of the people who would otherwise like to become teachers will not.
SoCal | 9:08 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I wouldn't complain too much about the pay. In southern California
you'll start out at about 40k, and top out at 86k.....assuming you still
have a job. Every district is basically on a hiring freeze, and many teachers
without tenure will be losing their jobs thanks to the money crisis. So be
thankful that you even have a job.
re SoCal 9:08 | 9:19 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Unlike California, Utah has a surplus. We can afford to pay teachers more if we
choose to. I for one believe raising teacher pay, and improving education
quality, is a good way to spend the money. Quality is more than pay, but
without decent pay quality is not obtainable.
What investment pays more dividents that quality education?
What investment pays more dividents that quality education?
to: SOCAL | 9:31 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
My bro in SoCal is making more than $100,000 teaching math at a high school in
Orange county.
He also gets bonus money for working with Long Beach State students, being dept. chair, etc.
All in all I'd say he is topping out at about $120,000.
Pretty good compared to the $29,000 plus donate many of your free time hours that he could make here in Utah.
He also gets bonus money for working with Long Beach State students, being dept. chair, etc.
All in all I'd say he is topping out at about $120,000.
Pretty good compared to the $29,000 plus donate many of your free time hours that he could make here in Utah.
Vouchers, folks | 9:32 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
The education budget would have much more money in it if the people of Utah had
gotten their collective act together and voted FOR vouchers.
Instead, the weak-minded bent to the pressure of out-of-state special interest groups, and guess what! We're stuck with the same system as before, filled with the same old bureaucrats, but now they're demanding even MORE money.
I'm the son of an elementary school teacher - I understand the money isn't great. But let me send my kids where I want to send them. I pay money to support the education of children - not teacher's unions, and certainly not to prop up failing institutions.
Instead, the weak-minded bent to the pressure of out-of-state special interest groups, and guess what! We're stuck with the same system as before, filled with the same old bureaucrats, but now they're demanding even MORE money.
I'm the son of an elementary school teacher - I understand the money isn't great. But let me send my kids where I want to send them. I pay money to support the education of children - not teacher's unions, and certainly not to prop up failing institutions.
Anonymous | 9:28 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
someone with a college degree cannot teach math or sience? Sounds like they have
a high school degree or that the iberal arts teaching degre is hogwash.
Keep cuting teachers pay untill the testing results go way up, like into the top 20% of the rating system.
Keep cuting teachers pay untill the testing results go way up, like into the top 20% of the rating system.
Government Schools | 9:35 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Here is another BIG problem with government schools. Did you know that
California law now requires that the public schools do not use the words,
"MOM and DAD"? Also, did you know that they are about to require
teaching about "global warming", etc as truth when scientists are
divided over the cause. Ok folks..here comes FASCISM...all the reason why
education must be LOCAL, AND NOT GOVERNMENT RUN. Privatizing education lets the
market control teacher compensation and curriculum. The schools that pay the
most will attract the best. The schools that can afford to pay the best, will
have the best programs. Plain and simple. Reading Adam Smith is an absolute
requirment in understanding not only economic principles that work, but also the
human spirit that thrives on hope, inspiration and faith.
Second, compulsory education should be outlawed. However, I would provide taxpaying parents with an education credit (like the federal one for college), but this would be like the EIC that puts money back to the taxpayer and allows them to choose the school.
Denmark has complete choice and a better school system then we do.
A government that governs least, governs best.
Second, compulsory education should be outlawed. However, I would provide taxpaying parents with an education credit (like the federal one for college), but this would be like the EIC that puts money back to the taxpayer and allows them to choose the school.
Denmark has complete choice and a better school system then we do.
A government that governs least, governs best.
bob | 9:30 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
interesting that some of you would "privatize" education and look to
market competition as the means to save education. if i understand the private
sector and competitive business practices correctly, if there's a problem
with the raw materials, they're discarded and a better source of raw
materials are found. i'm pretty sure public education still takes all --
the best and the brightest, and those who struggle, so i'm not sure how
that factors in to your solution. seems to me that paying teachers such that
there is competition to be a teacher may attract more of those who can make
significant improvements in education.
Pac 10 Alumnus | 9:31 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Deny free education for thousands of illegal aliens and you won't need as
many teachers... AND it will solve the overcrowding problem. Take the excess
funds saved and increase teacher salaries. No tax increases will be necessary.
my two cents | 9:34 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
My property taxes when I moved from Seattle went down by one third, but
Washington has no income tax, so I guess that evens out. I took a $400/month
cut in take-home pay, but my standard of living went up. I
don�t really need a tax cut. I would like to see my kids
in jr. high classes with less than 40 students, so pay competitive salaries to
attract and retain qualified teachers.
BobG has an interesting idea in putting teacher pay in with other state employee pay. There are some problems with that, but it is an idea worthy of study.
Proud investigation teacher is way off-topic. It�s inadequate funds for both a tax cut and a teacher pay increase. He/she does his/her profession a disservice by bragging about his/her class and the students therein and basically saying teachers don�t need more money because we�re doing great in my school. I�m glad your students are doing so well and learning so much so early. Kudos to you and them; however, my son sits in a jr. high algebra II class with 40 other students and has a hard time getting the attention he needs because of inadequate funding.
BobG has an interesting idea in putting teacher pay in with other state employee pay. There are some problems with that, but it is an idea worthy of study.
Proud investigation teacher is way off-topic. It�s inadequate funds for both a tax cut and a teacher pay increase. He/she does his/her profession a disservice by bragging about his/her class and the students therein and basically saying teachers don�t need more money because we�re doing great in my school. I�m glad your students are doing so well and learning so much so early. Kudos to you and them; however, my son sits in a jr. high algebra II class with 40 other students and has a hard time getting the attention he needs because of inadequate funding.
TO PAUL | 9:36 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
This is a message board, not a blog. (I know it is just semantics but it bothers
me.)
Tired of being abused | 9:52 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Consider, with 104 days off for weekends, 10 days of holidays and 10 days off
for vacation; Mr. Joe Q Public works 241 Days a year. He has to worry about
layoffs, if his company fails; and raises are based upon performance. Fail to
meet any arbitrary metric set in place by his employer, and he may be finding a
loss of his job. That is life as 90+% of us know it.
Contrast this to a 'teacher'. Contract for 168 days of work per year (not including sick, vacation or personal days), better health insurance and retirement benefits that any of us will know; and a job that is secure after 3 years that no matter how dismal the job performance is, the job is guaranteed for life.
Teachers 'work' approximately 67.9% as much as Joe Q. Public. For this, they are demanding the same pay rate as Joe Q. Public. Think of it this way, you work Monday through Friday for a paycheck, and one of your team gets off every week at noon on Wednesday. Do you think he is worth the same as you? I don't.
Contrast this to a 'teacher'. Contract for 168 days of work per year (not including sick, vacation or personal days), better health insurance and retirement benefits that any of us will know; and a job that is secure after 3 years that no matter how dismal the job performance is, the job is guaranteed for life.
Teachers 'work' approximately 67.9% as much as Joe Q. Public. For this, they are demanding the same pay rate as Joe Q. Public. Think of it this way, you work Monday through Friday for a paycheck, and one of your team gets off every week at noon on Wednesday. Do you think he is worth the same as you? I don't.
THIS IS GOVERNMENT | 10:13 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
You want low pay, then keep the government run system alive. You want your
paychecks to rise to the market value of a good teacher--then get education out
of the hands of the government.
Folks, this isn't rocket science. In market controlled industries, money flows to those who have the skills to deliver. Carlos Boozer gets millions because he has skills. So give schools choice and the ability to pay based on merit and the excellent teachers will get excellent pay. The teacher shortage will end. The schools with excellent systems will franchise all over the place.
And who benefits? Teachers, parents, kids.
Folks, this isn't rocket science. In market controlled industries, money flows to those who have the skills to deliver. Carlos Boozer gets millions because he has skills. So give schools choice and the ability to pay based on merit and the excellent teachers will get excellent pay. The teacher shortage will end. The schools with excellent systems will franchise all over the place.
And who benefits? Teachers, parents, kids.
Re: tired of being abused- | 10:18 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
Right on Brother!
To Proud Investigations Teacher | 10:24 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
My daughter has been through investigations math, and it almost ruined her in
terms of math performance. She's generally a straight-A kid. But we've
put a lot of work into correcting her understanding of math just so she feels
barely competent. She's convinced that "math just isn't for
girls" and silly things like that, all because the Alpine District screwed
up with this dumbed-down feel-good math program.
Now, you just might be the only teacher who really knows how to teach this kind of math properly. Maybe there are a half-dozen of you in the whole district. But none of her teachers knew how to do it right, and she suffers for it still. How many kids had to be damaged by this before the district started moving away from it? And how many are still being damaged by schools or teachers that are still trying to teach this way in spite of overwhelming rejection of this method by parents? Do you really think parents are that stupid? There's a reason why Alpine has lost more students to charter schools than any other district. It's all about math, and the parents are right on this!
Now, you just might be the only teacher who really knows how to teach this kind of math properly. Maybe there are a half-dozen of you in the whole district. But none of her teachers knew how to do it right, and she suffers for it still. How many kids had to be damaged by this before the district started moving away from it? And how many are still being damaged by schools or teachers that are still trying to teach this way in spite of overwhelming rejection of this method by parents? Do you really think parents are that stupid? There's a reason why Alpine has lost more students to charter schools than any other district. It's all about math, and the parents are right on this!
To This is Government | 10:33 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
I agree that vouchers were a good idea, but not for teacher pay. The stats are
clear that teachers in private schools make less money than teachers in public
schools. Maybe it's the lack of union representation. Or maybe it's
all the nuns bringing the average down, I don't know. But I don't
think anyone is claiming that teachers in general would make more money at
private voucher-supported schools.
Re Tired of Being Abused | 10:45 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
The free market is speaking, it is saying we aren't paying teachers enough.
Were we to raise standards sufficient to restore educational quality to the pre
dumbing down days, we would have an even harder time attracting teachers.
Remember teachers are professionals with a college degree that they worked 4 years for. Teaching should pay more than the average job, not the same as.
Remember teachers are professionals with a college degree that they worked 4 years for. Teaching should pay more than the average job, not the same as.
Tax "Charitable" IHC | 10:40 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
The solution to the education, tax, and health care problems could be solved in
one easy stroke of the pen. Pass and sign legislation that would tax
Intermountain Health Care. IHC is supposed to be in the charity business and in
exchange for that they pay no taxes. In reality, they are just the opposite.
Their little scheme is simple. They charge the uninsured up to 5 times what the
insured pay, (knowing the uninsured cannot pay) and then attribute the
uncollected inflated debt to charitable care. At the end of each year (after
huge executive salaries, major advertising, legislative lobbying investments,
etc.) they have over $200 million left to build their empire.
If IHC were taxed on just 3% of their property holdings and income, the revenues, if applied to education, would take Utah from #49 in $$ per student to the the top 10. IF IHC were fully taxed as other businesses, it would allow competition in Utah health care and as a result of free market conditions, health costs would go down and quality rise.
So, why is IHC such a sacred cow? IHC should be taxed like any other business.
If IHC were taxed on just 3% of their property holdings and income, the revenues, if applied to education, would take Utah from #49 in $$ per student to the the top 10. IF IHC were fully taxed as other businesses, it would allow competition in Utah health care and as a result of free market conditions, health costs would go down and quality rise.
So, why is IHC such a sacred cow? IHC should be taxed like any other business.
Grandma | 10:47 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008
What happened to that huge surplus of money in this State?? Teachers deserve to
get paid decent wages. I know how hard they work. We owe it to our children
and parents need to get very involved with their children's education!
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ooops, can't do it.
I for one am voting straight ticket this next November, ANTI-INCUMBENT.
That means someone out ther has to leave their house, get out and vote to keep everyone from the Governaire-in-Chief all the way down just to cancel my vote.