Deseret News | Reader comments: Pay raise turning complicated

Reader comments
Pay raise turning complicated

cb | 7:01 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

With a slowing economy it is prudent that we do not give them a raise. The private sector is not getting raises and tax revenue will not increase, meaning taxes will go up.

Bob M. | 7:20 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

As one who works in the so-called private sector, where is my raise????????? If the individual members of the legislature interviewed their constiuents, I would doubt that they would find ONE of them had a $2,500 raise in 2007 or 2008.

Utah Principal | 7:32 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

We are loosing Principals to Wyoming as well as teachers. We're loosing up and coming administrators as well as some of our best most experienced administrators as well. What will keep them here? CASH!

Comments continue below

16 year teacher | 7:57 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Please lawmakers...forget the UEA.

I definitely like the straight $2500 raise to the teachers. The new teachers need the bigger raise. $2500 will be about a 5% raise for me and a 10% raise for new teachers. If you give 3% on the WPU the disrict will eat it ALL up. They have done it for the last 8 years except for last year. I saw maybe a 1% raise in the past when the WPU was increased by 4 - 5 %.

The UEA has its priorities out of whack.

PLEASE DO IT JUST LIKE LAST YEAR! IT WAS THE BEST RAISE I HAVE HAD IN 10 YEARS AND ACTUALLY GAVE ME HOPE FOR THE FUTURE OF EDUCATION!

dingo | 9:01 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

look close teachers. you want more money and the legislature wants to give it to you. the road blocks, as pointed out in this article, are the unions and the administration of the school districts. one of your very own is sabotaging the bill because $2,500 to every teacher is not "fair". last time i checked $2,500 to everyone regardless of service time is fair, everyone gets the same amount. any 5th grader can figure that out. take note teachers of who is trying to work with you and who is working against you

Jane | 9:15 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

As a teacher, I find it interesting how many people "know" what is best in this situation. Personally, I prefer Froerer's bill, because it bypasses the districts. Last year, of course, I didn't get the full raise (I work for Provo School District). So I am very skeptical that that I will get the full amount this year. Our district likes to take monies like this and use them for their own purposes, instead of giving it to the teachers as was originally intended. Prospective teachers, beware!

I'm an old teacher - | 9:44 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Well, maybe not old, but definitely mid career. I have a Master's degree, 15+ years of service and work for Jordan District. A case study of my compensation as a class room teacher seems useful.

My base salary is $55,772 (53272+2500). Divided by 184 work days per year my daily rate is $303. My hourly rate is $37.87. Under Jordan District's local control, I also receive the equivalent of 9 optional professional development days. That's another $2,727 - bringing the total to $58,499.

In addition, I teach an extra class (+6,816.), and serve as department chair (+$1500). That makes my total district salary $66,815.

In addition, based on my experience and years of success, I've been able to build summer consulting business. I create curriculum for schools around the country. That brings in another $18,000 or so.

$84,815 isn't a bad yearly salary for a middle school teacher.

By contrast, most of my colleagues are young, teach just as many kids, and work just as hard during the summer to earn less than $35,000.

Add to that the fact that I bought my house in the nineties for about half of what a nice condo costs now. (continued below)

I'm an old teacher (contintued) | 9:57 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

(part two continued from above)

Because of how my salary has grown over the years and because of the rising price of real estate, I have a much better ability to provide for my family. I can afford to live in Utah and be a teacher. I might not be typical of all mid-career teachers, but I bet I'm pretty close. My wife is a stay at home mom and helps run the consulting business. Most teachers my age have a spouse with a career and separate income. When our youngest goes to school next year we'll add to our household income.

For young teachers it's not the same. A salary of $35,000 gives a person the borrowing power to buy a home worth $105,000. That means if you graduate from college in 2008, you can't afford to live in Utah and be a teacher.

Would I like a 10% raise to match the raise the young teachers are getting? Of course I would, but as a state we need to work with the resources we have. Compassion and an awareness of market forces need to guide our policy.

(continued below)

old teacher (continued) | 10:00 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

(part three)

The statewide crisis isn't in the retention of older teachers. It's in the recruitment of young teachers. We had a massive shortage at the beginning of this school year.

We need to put our limited funding where needs are greatest.

What ever | 10:26 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Have any of you looked at the salaries of some of these administrators. They are making great money. They don't need to be compensated they get vacation days they leave the schools when they want. When was the last time an administrator took a personal day and had to pay it out of their own check. Is this going to be like last years raise and we won't get it. I have taught for 12 years and work part time now, and I am not complaining about part time. But when we got our bonus last year I got half a bonus which is fine. But the teacher next year had been teaching for 3 months when we were paid our bonus and he recieved 1000. THe same amount that teacher who have worked for 25 years recieved. There are problems. The new teachers are recieving the perks and those of us who have been in the trenches for years are still sitting in the same place we have been for years.

teacher | 10:32 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Principals already make considerably more than teachers, with little difference in the time it takes to fulfill one's daily responsibilities. Principals are on a longer yearly contract for which they are compensated. Principals don't deal with classrooms of 30 children 6 hours a day. As a teacher in Nebo district, we did not get 2,500 dollars last year. Fund the bill so the district does not have the ability to short change teachers again.

Roger | 10:33 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Teacher make more money that cops, and they work inside, nine months a year. Teachers can cry all they want. No one else gets away with working nine months a year and getting paid for 12. They get enough money.

taxed to death | 10:34 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

They don't need a raise every year. We would be alot better of if the blood sucking legislature never meet.

We need to attract the best | 10:39 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Utah has shortchanged teachers for years. Its highly appropriate that they get a significant pay raise.

Although there are highly qualified teachers, in spite of the low pay, there is not enough of them. Many who are attracted to the field aren't the brightest. As a result we keep getting stupid methods of teaching that do more damage than good. (Whole language and investigations math).

Teaching should pay more so societies best and brightest won't ever say, I'd love to teach, but want to make more money.

Even these pay raises aren't enough but they are a start.

What is wrong with education | 10:55 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

The reason Vouchers are such a big issue is because districts are full of pork spending, just like government. If you give the money to the districts, rather than teachers, we will not see it!

The reason teachers are paid so poorly is because the districts do not need to answer for every dollar they get.

to Utah principal & private sect | 11:11 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I would venture to say not ONE principal has left utah for Wyoming. There is no lack of candidates for principal anywhere.

To private sector people....sounds like they need more teachers still. Hop on board and get a raise...oh wait you would take a $20,000+ a year pay cut to be a teacher....so what were you talking about?

Clueless | 11:43 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I agree that the teacher is the most important part of the puzzle, but this legislator, which excluded the administrator, is absolutely clueless to how critical the administrator is to keeping the school running smoothly, supporting teachers and maintaining a functional system. Remove the administrator and how is the school going to function, by a committee, I don't think so.

Utah doesn't pay teachers | 11:45 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

NEARLY ENOUGH.

Nevada is close to the bottom of the list as far as teacher pay, yet they still pay teachers much better than Utah. That's why I moved here to teach. After all, I wanted to make a LIVING wage so I could support my family. When I lived in Utah I was making more money in the construction industry as a common laborer than I would of as a teacher.

A former co-worker of mine moved back to Utah, and she took a HUGE cut in pay (something like $12,000-$15,000/year). Ouch! Plus she had the option of teaching summer school here (another $7,000), plus her working conditions aren't nearly as good. Her only advantage is that she is closer to her family.

Utah legislators need to know that if they want good teachers, they need to be willing to pay them more than those who don't even attend college to obtain an education. Teachers make huge sacrifices both in time and money to obtain an education, and UTAH refuses to compensate them for their sacrifice. It's pathetic.

I would love to move back to Utah and teach. I just can't afford it.

Interested tax payer | 12:18 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I want to compliment Alpine School District that paid every full-time teacher the $2500. The district followed through even if they didn't get the entire amount from the legislature. A district like Alpine can be trusted to do what is right for all of their employees. I think the raise to the WPI is the way to go. Let the districts use the money to fit their needs. With it, put the expectation that teachers and administrators get a raise of $2500. We need to remember that administrators set the vision for the schools. They work hard and deserve the raise with the teachers. Let's follow the voice of the voters who are pro-education.

16 year teacher to OLD teacher | 12:54 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Well said.

I'm in about the same boat as you minus the consulting in the summer. I agree the starting pay is where it is needed. That isn't popular to say with the UEA crowd. The whole WPU mess is a joke.

Starting salaries need to get up to at least $40,000 a year to get good candidates.

Once you are in the system and do a good job you will be rewarded for the extra work. Teaching a prep period, dept. chair etc.

I would never have become a teacher in Utah if I had live off of $30,000 a year and a house cost $300,000.

Luckily I got in when houses were $100,000 and have bought and sold several times to move up.

You just can't do that on what they are offering now.

To: Roger | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I'm glad people with comments like these are a dying breed.

The "pay them cheap and stack them deep" mentality is just about gone.

The public is demanding a change from the legislature. It is slowly happening. People are realizing you usually get what you pay for. People are realizing their children's futures are worth paying for.

Utah Administrator | 1:09 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Attract the best and brightest to education and leave them alone. Get rid of the bureaucracy and let them teach. Programs programs programs??? Do programs by themselves help kids? A good friend reminded me that you can give great lesson plans to a marginal teacher and you will get a marginal lesson. You can have a great program implemented by marginal teachers and you will have a marginal program. We need monumental, visionary reform in education. Believe me when I say "the only private sector people that don't agree with attracting quality people to education by paying them well, are the private sector cashiers at 7-11 and Blockbuster, the manager of McDonald's, and the laborer taking care of your dry cleaning" ... Any entrepreneur, corporate executive, or high IQ manager understands the importance of a well educated populace. Well educated adults are the most important asset to a thriving, robust economy. Most idiots don't realize this, but remember an idiot is born every minute. We have to teach them too.

Anonymous | 1:16 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I have a Master's in Special Education, an endorsement in School Library Media, and am working on an endorsement in Reading. I have taught for 22 yrs. in Special Education. I took a $15,000.00 cut when I moved here. Think about how much is lost over time....$15,000.00/yr. is a lot of money.
I work harder, longer hours and more is expected of me than in any job I have ever held. No extra pay for any after school activities, no extra pay for dept. head or any other positions.
When I look at my finaces I wonder why I moved here. Certainly not for the $$$$$$$.
The raise this year was most welcomed and gives me some reason to stay. I sure hope more $$ is forthcoming.
P.S. To the writer who thinks we get paid for 12 months when we only work 9...our pay is pro-rated so that we in essence get "cheated" during 9 months and get the rest over the summer. It actually helps the districts to keep their accounts running smoothly.

MrH | 1:53 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

First, let me make all of the Utah teachers salivate a little. At my previous elementary teaching position that I had prior to living here, in an area of similar cost of living, I was at 84,000 (top pay was 89) with 12 years experience and a Masters degree. My health care was complete. I paid nothing monthly and all of my doctor's visits were a 10 dollar copay with 5 dollar prescriptions. I could have spent a week at the hospital and undergone a triple bypass, and it would have cost me ten dollars. This included eye and dental.
In Utah, Salt Lake has just broke the 60,000 mark and Jordan the 50,000 mark; but it takes you up to 15 years and multiple degrees to get there. Pay starts in the 20's and unless you get multiple degrees, you will barely make it into the 40's. In Salt Lake I pay just shy of 500 dollars a month for comparatively sparse health coverage. 35 co-pay, scripts up to 50 dollars, 20% of total bill on anything other than an office visit. I get little help on eye and dental. continue below

MrH | 1:59 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

The truth is, more teacher contracts are similar to what I had in my previous state. Utah simply is the lowest of the low. This is why Utah will struggle more and more in the years to come. I think Utah has had a pool of dedicated pro-Utah folks in the past who were willing to take a pay cut in order to stay here. That number is shrinking while our population is exploding.
I believe it is a miracle that Utah has been able to fill its schools with teachers as much as it has. I think though that the party is over and all of the legislature shell games in the world are not going to change the fact that in the coming two decades,teachers are going to be looking to other states for employment. The anti-teacher people will be happy though....
How does a state afford this? Two words - state lotto ! (and of course, less children per taxpayer)

History teacher | 2:04 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

The WPU system is broke because the UEA and districts are broke. UEA does NOT fight for higher salaries for teachers. They fight for a higher WPU and then have a voice in how tax monies are divvied up at the district level. At the district level, where there is less scrutiny, UEA then fights for more money for bureaucracy, administrators and programs, often at the expense of teacher salaries.

Most Utahans know that it's teachers, not programs, that educate the children. The legislature is right in assuming that if they do not earmark funds for teacher salaries they will end up somewhere else. $2500 lump sums are the best thing to hit teacher salaries.

Frustrated husband! | 2:14 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

As husband of a 30+ elementary teacher, I've had it with all of the pontificating by people who think they know anything about the teaching profession. I will freely admit that like all professions there are some bad apples in the mix, but overall Utah teachers are miracle workers (based upon too many non-participating parents). But teaching (classroom time) is just a fraction of their efforts: lesson plans and materials, correcting papers, parent conferences, extracurricular activities, playground/bus/lunch duty, classroom maintenance, report cards, district/state/federal (NCLB) programs, etc... the list goes on and on. Teaching isn't a job, itï¿½s a life ï¿½ try a 16 hour day on for size (pathetic hourly rate!)
Having sacrificed a spouse and considerable personal money for school materials for 30+ years to teach the publicï¿½s children all for an embarrassing compensation package causes me to be enormously offended when I hear griping about teachers and their salaries.
Legislators, tax payers, gripers in general - spend one day on the job with a teacher and truly understand. Until then just say thank you and be glad they're preparing our children for the future.
Hereï¿½s a husband who is tired of sacrificing a wife with little reciprocal appreciation.

veteran teacher | 2:15 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

color me suprised!

CK | 2:30 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Utah Principal | 7:32 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
We are loosing Principals to Wyoming as well as teachers. We're loosing up and coming administrators as well as some of our best most experienced administrators as well. What will keep them here? CASH!

I'm not sure about the opinion of a Principal who cannot spell losing.

President Bush | 2:47 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

What makes you think that person really is a Utah Principal?

Re:Frustrated husband | 3:31 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Amen my husband feels the same way and wants me to really try and leave the work at school. But how do you do that....

Principal Pay... | 4:58 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

...shouldn't be an issue.

The principal at West High made $97,000 last year. The Attorney General for the state of Utah made $98,000. The Governor of Utah made $103,000. Salt Lake City's Fire Chief made $93,000.

The Superintendent of Granite School District made $203,000....the Chief Medical Examiner of Utah made $164,000. Salt Lake City's Superintendent made $174,000.

Seems to me being in education administration is pretty good gig if you can get it...certainly pays better than other state admin jobs.

Typical | 5:13 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Nothing will ever change in terms of pay for teachers in Utah (all smoke and mirrors). I am always amazed how people voice their opinions and have no clue about a teachers life. Additionally, many people do not understand what it takes to get several degrees, endorsements, training etc..yet they want the same compensation or they feel they to can teach. Get a degree or two and have at it!! With the lack of respect and support from parents and administrators most wouldn't last one term. I have seen tough talkers come and go and it is getting worse(it is called a shortage). As for administrators... an early post mentioned how valuable their support is. Make no mistake about it is their job to bully and intimidate teachers; not support them. Legislators do not want to put money on the WPU because then the raise is permanent. By giving $2500 when they feel like it means they do not have to commit year after year (heaven forbid). Veteran teachers are the ones' that really loose out here. They should be compensated for their extended education, time and experience. Higher ranking officials always make more than entry level employees!

Anonymous | 6:24 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

when will people learn the difference between loose and lose?

Making to much already | 6:43 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Just based on personal experience of my own 19 years of education, teachers are really OVERPAID for the quality of teaching done. In 19 years of education (12years through highschool, and 7 years of college -including an advanced degree) I had only TWO really good teachers -one each in high school and grad school. All the rest were just teaching because they couldn't do anything else.
The old saying of those who can do - DO, those that can't, Teach was very true in my experence. Sorry teachers but no tears on my part for the low wages. Impove work and output, and wages go up in the real world. So be it in teaching.

Anonymous | 6:53 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Making "too" much... you probably reeked as a student (as your grammar shows), and are projecting your inadequacies on others. You are example of the problem in this generation... it is everyone else's fault.

Another Anonymous | 7:22 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

As a science teacher, I also find the "loose" versus "lose" usage humorous. Usage example: "We need to loosen the knot on the rope. If we don't, we might lose the roping contest, and then lose our principal to Wyoming." For the record, I also think Nebo school district is the best place in the U.S. to work as a teacher. That's a personal opinion of course!

Anonymous | 7:36 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Making to much (sic):

It is quite possible you failed educating yourself, not the other way around. The teacher is a facilitator of learning, and if you were unwilling then the blame falls squarely on your shoulders.

Brother of Anonymous | 8:01 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Making too much

Now really, listen to yourself. Those same teachers that didn't teach an inspiring rendition in your opinion, still got your butt into college. And why did you keep spending your own dollars on something of so little apparent value? (For seven years?) Why not go to a "better" place? Seems like YOU still got your money's worth. If the class size was smaller, would you have been happier? If the teacher didn't have to go downtown right after school to that part-time job until 9pm every night to help make ends meet, maybe you could have gotten even more attention? Surprises me people have done as well as they have, all things considered.

Vegas Teacher | 8:13 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Interesting comments. I grew up in Utah, went to USU. I left Utah and came to NV to teach because of the salary.

With my extended contract pay and 13 years, I make about $78,000 a year. Sounds like a lot of money right? Well, not only do I have a BS, I have a Masters Degree, and an additional 32 credits. I have endorsements in ESL, Computer Science, Early Childhood, K-8 education, and Literacy. And then this last year I completed another course of study for 18 more credits in Language Arts.

I think that most people with the amount of education and experience that I have would be insulted to be making $78,000. In fact, until this last year my little brother made more as a heavy equipment operater with a HS education than I did.

Until the people of this country decide that teaching is a profession that deserves respect and adequate compensation they will continue to get what they pay for.

Vegas Teacher | 8:20 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

One more thing. If any Utah teachers want to come and work for the Clark County School District. We are hiring. I have heard that we will need to hire around 4000 teachers to start school in the fall.

The state legislature has decided that they won't allow teachers to continue to participate in the state retirement health system after this school year, so thousands of people will be retiring early to get in the program.

Clark Country runs from Utah to the California border. We would love to have a bunch of you come and join us. Google CCSD to get more information.

Vegas Teacher | 9:04 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I'd really love to find out what jobs you think people are racking up more than $78,000 a year with a masters.

In 2005 the average salary in the US for a person with a Master's was just over $63,000 a year. A PhD was garnering just over $73,000 a year.

Seems that your pay is actually more than the average person with a master's, so who should be insulted now?

Guess you could be someone like a police officer who has a bachelors as well as the 800 hours of training it takes to get their POST certification on top of that and start out between $30,000 and $35,000....they really ought to be insulted, shouldn't they?

The Old Teacher (again) | 10:09 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

No! No! No!

Don't go to Clark county. It's hot and sweaty and you have to have rocks and sand for a lawn. In the summer it can be 120 in the SHADE!!!!!

Stay here in a nice start up condo that has gardeners and a pool.

Utah loves you . . . just in a dysfunctional way.

Time for change | 10:13 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

We really need to pay more to our teachers. We've got to attract great teachers to help mold our children and our future. I'm finishing a BS in Education/Psychology and am observing a great deal in elementary classrooms this month. Those teachers are amazing. Class size reductions would also be a huge boost to the education of our children. I see it first hand. Teachers have got to have the ability to get around to each student to help them, and when there are more than 20 kids in the class, they just can't get around to everyone, no matter how hard they try.

Anonymous | 8:26 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

As an older teacher that finished my degree after my children were raised and am in my fifth year of teaching. First.It is what the person is trying to say that should matter not that they spelled some words wrong.
My first few years I took classes to get an endorsement, to raise my salary. I spent many hours on the classes, hours I could have spent on my lesson plans and job. I spend many hours after school and at home doing what it takes to do the best job I can teaching my students. I sometimes wish I could leave the job at school. I have a supportive husband. Yes we do deserve a the raise. Yes we do earn it. If my grammer is wrong and my spelling, well the students I teach have gone from the lowest beginning scores in the dristict to being where they need to be so far. That is what matters, what is best for the kids, think about that. Do you want more people teaching the kids that want to teach in Utah? Then make it affordable.

RE: frustrated husband (#2) | 8:57 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Very well said!!!!!

A better system | 10:25 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I would like to propose a new salary scale for all educators. Every teacher and administrator are paid based upon years of service, not by position. That way great teachers stay in the classroom, not jump to the other side and boss other teachers around. Perhaps administrators can make 10% more than the teachers for the work that they do. I would also rotate principals out with veteran teachers every 7 years, so those on top would have a clear perspective on just how difficult it can be sometimes to teach young students of this generation - a young generation of the "entitlement" attitudes. If we all work together, a better system will result in a better solution. I'm a Utahn and love this state. It will take some sacrifice on all of our parts to make it work. Now, I know this post will not be popular with the administion who makes 3-6 times as much salary as a school teacher. But I believe the teachers are the ones that make and break our future. I would like to hear/read your responses about this post, please.

Anonymous | 8:29 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Just raise teachers' salaries to the national average. How outrageous could it be to ask for average salaries?

To a better system | 9:07 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Nobody would do it. You would find nobody willing to be an administrator for 10% more than a teacher makes. As for those who don't believe we lose principals to Wyoming, the last 3 administrators of my kids have left for the windy plains of Wyoming.

Also, complaining about spelling in these forms is SOOOO lame!

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