Deseret News | Debate resumes over illegal immigrants' status in LDS Church

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Debate resumes over illegal immigrants' status in LDS Church

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Nomos | 5:55 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Illegals have no respect for the law nor for decency. That is why THEY are the ones dominating these comments, calling law-abiding citizens "Nazis" and "inhumane" and "not compassionate".

Those who benefit from crime (and being in our country illegally IS A CRIME), would distort not only the law, but also the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order to justify their illegal and immoral actions.

If you cannot abide by the laws of this land, then you should have no protection from them; you should not benefit from them; you should not be allowed the freedom of speech that is guaranteed by our First Amendment - because you are Law-Breakers!

If you want to get religious, fine. Then you and Mr. Jensen (Amen to his priesthood) should read and understand this: "that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. (D&C 88:34-35)

glenn | 6:29 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

wow, members of the church judging others? unbelievable. Don't worry so much about what illegals are doing, or how the church is handling them. The same as how you wouldn't judge anyone for anything else or how the church handles them. Look within, first take the beam out of thine own eye. Trust me, you are not well spiritually if you are worried about other peoples recommends. Look inward, judge yourself, better yourself, have faith that the Lords church can handle every individual the way the Lord would want them handled. I can't believe there are members of the church who would actually judge another based on immigration status or any other sin. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Kent | 6:41 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

I remember sitting on the lawn of the Sao Paulo Temple a quarter century ago and looking up to se the huge Brazilian flag flying overhead. Although I had served a mission in Uruguay and had lived in both Mexico and Spain, I became choked up with emotion on the realization that the Lord's church is a worldwide church. As the Savior commanded, "Go ye unto all the world..."
Sometimes the world is next door.
Early Saints ran afoul of the law with illegal plural marriages...but God's law has always trumped man's law. When the pioneers went to the Salt Lake valley they also were 'trespassing' into Mexican territory.
The question regarding the undocumented is a political one, not a spiritual one. Don't fret it.

Comments continue below

Jeff | 9:56 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

I love the simple truths of the gospel. One of those simple truths is that we believe in being subject to rulers and magistrates and in honoring and obeying the law. I do not believe it is possible to sit in an interview and profess that we are honest if we know that our presence in this country is in disobedience with the law. As members it is not our role to judge but the Lord inspired men to create a constitution providing a process for developing laws and a system of selecting or electing leaders to judge according to that and other laws of the land. My feeling is that we are dishonoring God through the current church policy.

re: telling the truth | 11:58 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

stealing a million is much worse than stealing a nickel -
How do you reconcile -love thy neighbor and then condone a mass eviction - that's not love that's hate - we let them in - we offer them services while their here - now you want to kick them out - seems full of hate to me.

Black and White | 12:03 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I see no wiggle room in the Articles of Faith.ï¿½ Twist and turn it all you want, we should honor the law of the land, period.ï¿½ If you are here illegaly, you are not in line with this Article of Faith and, therefore, unworthy to enter into any Temple.ï¿½ I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way, no matter how eloquent and articulate you put it.

Peter | 8:23 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Comparisons between illegal immigration and speeding or jaywalking or simple tresspassing only reveal the ignorance of the person making the comment, including "Elder" Jensen.

For a number of reasons, illegal entrance into any country is a serious matter, and a significant crime. But it is also a violation of the laws of God (it violates several of the Ten Commandments, as well as tenets of the LDS faith and worthiness standards). For an official representative of the LDS Church to say what Jensen said is shocking and appalling. It is the harbinger of anarchy and lawlessness, and reveals the contradictions in the Church leadership - preaching we must obey the laws of the land, but then condoning breaking the laws of the land.

To those who call for mercy and compassion, shall we also give amnesty and "compassion" to all those who commit home invasion robberies? Or hold-up banks at gunpoint? Or embezzle funds from their companies? Or who rape and murder young children (its just minor "tresspassing" on their bodies)?

Illegal immigration steals from others. It affects legal citizens' livelihoods. It contributes to gang violence, drug trafficking, and violent crime such as aggravated assault and murder.

Wake up.

Anonymous | 8:49 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Don't worry, if the 12th Article of Faith, or any other canonized, doctrinal standard becomes politically or economically problematic for the church, the leaders will just have a revelation and change it.

I prophecy that the 12th Article of Faith will be subtly revised:

"We believe in being subject to prophets, seers, and revelators of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining only those laws of the land that they agree with and tell us to obey."

There. That works!

Rogerg | 9:10 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

"Love thy neighbor" What if your neighbor is a witch? "Do not suffer a Witch to live" or lives in the next town? "Kill all that breatheth". I guess if you want to go by the Law's of God you can do what ever you feel is o.k. as long as it is some where is found in the book. If you live in a country which has law's that you don't agree with, you can move or respect their laws.
Well whats it going to be?

Hillary Clinton | 9:23 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Hillary Clinton: Democrat

Issue: Inmigration

Question: What should happen to ilegal inmigrants already in the US?

Candidate Position: Allow illegal inmigrants to stay in the US and provide a path to citizenship that includes paying fines, learning English, and meeting other conditions.

Support: Clinton supports"...a fairer process for people seeking to come to America, especially for those whose families have been torn apart: a path to earned citinzenship for thosho are here, working hard, paying taxes, respecting the law, and willing to meet a high bar for becoming a citizen."

Source: Clinton's Senate office press release, march 8 2006

The heathen | 9:30 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

these guys cause 5000 deaths a year by murder..that's right up there with the war. Don't play your spiritual strings on my heart..these guys are not welcome period. Other states are already telling these people to come to Utah and pulling up these welcome articles. These people have their own grapevine and look at this as some great victory. I get tired of standing in line at western union just knowing these guys are using some else's id as they can't speak a lick of english. Resonable , humanitarian responsibility entails shipping them back and tightening the regulations that allowed them here as they make a mockery of everything i was taught as a legal citizen. Law enforcement is having a hard enough time with this population, now the flood will come from all directions as the door was just opened some more..pray for your children in school as they are going to be left behind to attend to alot more bigger classes jus to accomadate these people. Just let these people keep comming and putting the strain on the system which was based on integrity which they have over stayed their welcome on. Go Home and help there!

Bobby | 11:47 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Iï¿½m contacting the IRS to complain that the LDS church should have it tax exempt status removed because of itï¿½s meddling the the legislative process. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state and the Mormon church has stepped over the line one too many times

Jeff | 1:01 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I loved the line from the article that states,
"Elder Jensen noted that immigration is not only a political issue but a moral and ethical one."
It never ceases to amase me how educated people can lump the two together so easily. My thought is that Immigration is good, necessary and definately a Governmental issue. On the other hand, illegal immigration (or illegal anything) is a moral and ethical issue.

JD | 1:51 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

To be consistent it sounds like ANYONE who knows of or strongly suspects and illegal should be an enforcer and phyisically apprehend them...lest they leave their employment and flee before authorities arrive to catch them. This means that if an illegal shows up at a Baptist church or LDS church, whatever, they should be apprehended, expelled, and/or reported. The same goes for any establishment, religious or secular. Schools, hospitals, doctors (no mercy driven emergency health attention) etc. The only way to stop illegals is cut off employment funds. The church should not employ illegals but not allowing them to participate in church related practices? It simply isn't practical. The church shouldn't be enforcers. If a Bishops refuses a temple recommend or offers temporary mercy meals or accepts donations (tithes which would worsen their economic position) doesn't have much of an affect on the illegal problem. All a Bishop could do to solve illegals is to jump out of his chair and wrestle the illegal to the authorities. No illegals would ever show up at church again...but they'd just ward hop and stay here anyway. For the time being, till the government gets a smarter program, just follow the GA's policies.

Sinner | 2:47 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Hello people! If I get arrested for a DUI, the church doesn't kick me out! Why would people expect the church to kick out those who come here illegally? This is a world-wide religion! Get a grip, those who are thinking of leaving the church. Do you believe in God? check Do you believe the BofM to be true? check... then leave people's salvation to themselves and quit judging! Ugh, this drives me crazy! WE all think we're better than others don't we?

to bob | 3:00 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Puhlease! No-one is excommunicated for not paying his taxes! Why do people spread this kind of junk?

Jeff | 3:54 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Correct, the church or its members should NOT be enforcers. Whether to be honest or not is a personal decision and much like for ï¿½any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicatedï¿½ there is also a consequence predicated for disobedience. Free agency is a gift from the Lord to all, for better or for worse. It is not for members to judge, however, in the private confines of a Priesthood leaders office, it is his responsibility to judge a persons individual truthfulness when answering the questions in a Baptismal or Temple interview that ask about individual honesty.

Wayne | 7:55 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

It is one thing for the Church to tell us to obey the law. It is another for the Church to keep us out because we break the law. The Church may decide that certain sins are severe enough to put our membership in jeopardy, but it does not take a position on all laws. There are several acts that can jeopardize your standing with the Church (pornography, smoking, etc.) that the government cares less about, and there are other acts where the Church's view matches the law. But the laws of the land and the Church are not the same.

If I break a law and deny it then my standing in the Church may be called into question because I have been dishonest. But if I break a law (like speeding, or an immigration law), and I take responsibility, plead guilty about it and try to resolve it, the Church does not take a position.

If an illegal admits to his status the Church will ask him to resolve that status by gaining legal residence or returning home. But throughout that process he will remain in good standing, both here and in his home country.

Holy Cow! | 8:22 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Can you see why we are counseled against "speaking against the Lord's anointed"?

mom | 8:49 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I have been listening to other people talk about, taking the proper procedures on coming to the US legally. And I agree that your are dishonest if you do not. I also beleive that you cannot hold a temple recommend if you are not living an honest life. However, the Brothren have not taken a strong stand, so it's left up to the inspiration of the Bishop, but not for me to judge.
Although I have one question.... How many of you that complain about the illegals coming here have been to mexico and bought prescription drugs to bring beack to the US, and paid cheaper prices for medical procedures (extreely popular now. US Dr are even performing surgeries like gastric bipass, cosmentic procedures and other for next to nothing), or barder down the prices of the goods that they purchase which isn't helping their economy. We can't have it both ways. We can't except them to be honest when we enter their country to be dishonest as well.

Work hard for a BUCK | 11:22 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008

I pay taxes and work extremely hard and I am still poor. I want to know where my I taxes are going and not to support LAW BREAKING Illegals! This SOOOOO terribly wrong! I was always taught as a child to live the laws of the land. Somehow I cannot support double standards.

Sooooo long..... brethren!!!!!!

Jayson | 12:12 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

re: mom,
Your statement makes the assumption that large numbers of people choose to break the law and quite frankly to be stupid by actually thinking that buying drugs in Mexico with no assurance of their quality. Bardering has nothing to do with being dishonest. Your blanket statement that infers that people only enter Mexico to be dishonest just leads one to believe that somehow you think it isn't possible to go to Mexico for honest reasons even though there are plenty of good, honest reasons to go there that help to strengthen their economy.

Some of us actually take the being honest in your dealing with your fellow men seriously but when spokesmen for the brethrern start talking about how minor an offense is being committed one has to wonder how seriously the church takes it as well as respecting the laws of the land.

Anonymous | 4:11 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

This is totally a non issue. If you have a problem with someone doing Temple work, that has broken the law coming here, or has stolen someones identity, then you need to take it up with your bishop.

Anonymous | 2:23 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

A church leader urges "compassion" and people start ranting and raving and criticizing? Are you people insane? You have two choices, follow your conscience and consider every fellow human being as a child of God of infinite worth, or get yourself so worked up into a froth that all you are is an angry, ignorant repeater of far-right wing lies. Instead of ranting and raving, go read the Bible or Book or Mormon where it says to love your neighbor and not to spit upon the poor for being poor and to welcome the stranger. Hatred is a far greater sin than crossing a border without paperwork. It always has been and always will be.

East Coast Mormon | 2:38 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Mormons outside of Utah have long been concerned that Utah Mormons are becoming like the Pharisees of Jesus' time-- using phrases like, "We believe in honoring and sustaining the law" as an excuse to persecute illegal aliens in every possible way. But what about the weightier matters of the law? Love? Compassion? Love God and love thy neighbor trumps border-crossing paperwork every time. If people want to leave the Mormon church over the church's pleas to have compassion, let them leave. Their hearts were clearly never in it anyway. But please, stop using my religion to justify your lack of charity and compassion. You are embarrassing all Mormons and offending God.

To East Coast Mormon | 3:32 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Your quote "Love God and love thy neighbor trumps border crossing paperwork" is profound. My question is how can we love God when we disobey His commandment to obey the law of the land?

East Coast Mormon | 4:31 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

My comment about Pharisees totally went over your head. Are you telling me you love God? Are you telling me you drive exactly the speed limit and always signal when changing lanes? If not, you don't "obey the law of the land" and thus don't love God? Study up on the Pharisees. If the shoe fits...

Carey | 4:45 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Interesting how many people talk about "the law" as if there were only one law in the US--immigration. Hello out there. Do you know any illegal immigrants? I do. They have respect for "the law" they love their families, they read stories to their kids, they don't steal or murder. They would become legal immigrants if they could. Unfortunately, despite what people think, there is no paperwork they can fill out to become legal, no matter what they do. If you hate illegal immigrants, can't you at least follow Jesus' command to "love thine enemies?"

Larry S. | 6:28 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

No one is addressing the real question.... why is this mass exodus from Mexico and other Latin American countries happening at this time?..I'll give you a clue---it has everything to do with prophecy and George Bush's deal with Vicente Fox(Mexico's Prez.)and the New World Order that they ARE establishing..so, the real question is this: Do we support this New World Order movement in the name of "compassion" of illegal immigrants? Are we starting to see the fulfillment of prophecy, that we will lose our freedoms in this chosen land to people that will eventually over-run us, because we have allowed God to be taken out of our country and we no longer worship the God of this land?

LOL! | 10:04 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

NEW WORLD ORDER??? Bush & Fox conspiracy????

Dude, you are seriously paranoid! Tell me, do Utah mormons still believe California is going to fall into the ocean in sin and apostacy??

I love reading the Deseret news.....Makes Arkansas look intelligent and progressive!

re: Carey | 3:53 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

What Carey says above is not entirely true. There are several ways by which a citizen of Mexico may immigrate to the United States, including via the diversity lottery visa.

Carey | 7:15 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

They can win the visa lottery! Oops, forgot about that one. Yeah, that will solve everything. Ever think about why they call it a lottery? They can get sponsored by a university or technology company or a hospital--if they have high-level skills, take years to process the paperwork, tests, etc, and the company sponsoring them can certify there is no American citizen who could fill their job description. But really, you can't see that as an option for the majority of people who come here, whose unskilled labor we depend on. Oh, and there's another way--they can marry an American citizen. All put together, none of these methods amount to much and cannot fix the situation. You will note that all these people who say "hey, come here legally or get out" are the first ones to block any possibility of Mexicans coming here legally. Which proves it's a lot more about "I don't like brown people who are poor and don't talk the way I do" than "We believe in honoring and sustaining the law."

to GI Jack | 7:17 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

You can choose to become a resident of Utah if you like. Your taxes will go up, but if in-state tuition is all you want, you can get it just like any other resident. Oh yeah, except immigrants who may have lived here practically all their lives. We want to block them from resident tuition--because we think their lives are too easy as is and we want to kick them in the stomach in every possible way, apparently. Not that it will help, but it always feels good to hurt someone with less money or power than you, doesn't it?

barry richfield | 12:17 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

wife waiting 6 years for legal citizenship.

I have given compassion to those of foreign countries, I have sent a number to college- members and non-members, helped fix storm torn homes, or help to have houses built, paid for more than 80 surgeries. took wheel chair for young lady ( no legs) to Philippines. and other things to asist. That was my effort and money of course from the blessings of God. it wasn't tax payers money or my neighbors money, nor other church members money.

Those that wait in line are also hungry, poor, seperated from families. But they enter legally , are screened properly. waited turn. not breaking law or a law unto themselves. They are disease free, have legal documents. Are not allowed to take advantage of any welfare. Have to have legal paper to work.

If you want to fix immigration then work on it, but do not tell me that compassion is to reward those that steal the rights of those that wait their turn. Amnesty was given a few years ago to these from the countries they came from. They were to seek legal after that. That failed they still want to steal reward.

barry richfield | 12:20 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I have visited the poor of the 3rd world, outside the USA and the natives inside the USA- spent $10,000 in gold and a hundred pounds of silver to the hopi, food , clothing -again all I had, my retirement and savings. I didn't take another man's property.

Those in the 3rd world deserve better. I bet all those of you taht say have compassion do nothing more than give lip service from your own pockets.

Certainly you are ignorant as to how and to whom it ought to be given. Why not sponsor under the law those of foreign countries, go or do as I did, send $ to the mission president od any country and have him give the money to poor, I sent $2,000 that paid for supplies of tools for whole villages and bought school supplies for all the children on an island no matter what faith they were.

Helping them where they are is better, or helping them come legally is best. adinf and abeting illegals who ignore the rule of law for self while their own countrymen wait in line is wrong. There are still those that wait after 15 years to get here.

Barry richfield | 12:35 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Compassion is what one does themselves, not instituted or carried out by an organization. Place a small amount of money in an envelope and call it taking care of giving compassion?

I see few if none of those that want the ledgislators to show compassion, taking any of these illegals into their homes, I do not see the Church with soup kitchens or opening their chapels up to house the homeless. I do not see counsel from the Church for those with the means to sponsor or support good people in the rest of the world. all we talk about is how to sustain those that are illegal.

Why not match a ward, stake of wealthy members to a ward or stake of a 3rd world country so that member family to member family true compassion can be shown family to family. Most 3rd World have never seen a bike extra clothes, shoes, 3 meals a day, jobs, a house that they can fit in, fuel to cook with. medical bills or surgeries. No bus to school, no free lunch. no way to USA.

talk of compassion for law breakers, strain over a nait, swallow a camel- help someone worthy.

Barry richfield | 12:43 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

The Church has become more a fraternity than servants of Christ. it is self serving to take care of its own, and ignore those of god's children not their own.

It is the same even with their own in foreign lands. They even fail to educate their wealth here in USA about the circumstances of their own in foreign lands. Members in wealth do almost absolutely nothing for thier own kind in other lands. Bishops in foreign lands can not in many cases afford to take their own families to church let alone help continue to teach the converts that come in. They do not have funds to give to the poor among them, they can not assit in surgeries , or help with food or school or lost jobs. There are no church activities , the youth can not afford to come to Church. The houses at best are delapitated neding more to be like one of our 2nd hand sheds. If lucky they have 3 meals a day of rice, one fish serves the whole family as flavor. There are no christmases, thanksgivings, easter. There are no birthdays, extended education. no bikes, extra clothes,bands, choirs, toys, movies.

show them the door | 1:39 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

now that's compassion as they better not step on my land , bought and paid for by the almighty george! I can think of alot of other people to donate my compassion to in this state , who are here legally not some low down law breakers.

Soapbox | 4:05 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I have been following this discussion quite closely and enjoy seeing the debate and different points of view. Getting back to the issue at hand, it is not about hate, it is not about discrimination, it is not even about members judging each other. It is about a contradiction that exists in the church with current policy on one side and the words of prophets regarding obedience to the law on the other. My understanding is that the church does not see these people as having broken the law and will not officially call them illegal, they are simply undocumented. The perception is that the church does not even acknowledge the law that is being broken which seems awkwardly opposed to scripture. Breaking the law is a sin that can be forgiven (like most others) after a private discussion with a priesthood leader which usually involves confession and forsaking. This is not a members call to make but it would be nice if some formal direction could be handed down to Bishops especially when we are asking members about personal honesty.

re: Carey | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

The "visa lottery" program comment (above) was not meant to be facetious. Apparently Casey is unaware that there is an official government program called the Diversity Visa Lottery. It has an unfortunate name, but the truth of the matter is, there are more people willing to enter the United States than its systems and budget can bear. There are many ways one can legally enter and remain in the United States. The minimum requirement to enter legally by way of the Diversity Visa program is to have a high school diploma. The US legally gives thousands of visas to people in hundreds of countries each year. The fact that it doesn't hand them out by the millions is simply logical, common sense order and economics. Of course, other ways to enter and stay legally are via marriage, work visas, family sponsors, etc.

Isn't anyone aware that the United States is billions of dollars in debt? And yet you want open borders? Jensen and his ilk should be ashamed of peddling such malarkey and spitting in the faces of legal residents and US citizens. Shame on you!

shadow | 8:55 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

OK OK OK everyone who does not have immigrant blood, speak up.

kind of quiet eh. Native Americans can now speak.

But wait, you also came from somewhere else. Lots of theories, I tend toward the scientific side of the migration from Siberia. BUt they all say that people came here from somewhere else.

We are all immigrants so let's put our little tiny brains to work and figure this out. No one really has the high moral ground: we are all here from another place. Unless you are a worm or something, and if so, I apologize to you.

The Shadow Knows.

Anonymous | 6:02 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

Shadow, it's simple, controlled legal immigration good, illegal entry bad.

My forefathers had to wait for 6 years to enter this country, but they did it the right way.

I an afraid the statement, "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status", when speaking of lawbreakers, is going to come back on us members of the Church, when we talk about obeying the laws.

What a Crock | 9:03 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

What a Crock. This is just another typical example of the church's twisted logic and self-justification. How anyone can continue to believe the nonsense from that comes from the pulpit is beyond me.

Homer | 9:12 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

I want to live in Buckingham Palace. Don't I have the right to just move in because I too want a "better life?" Doesn't the Queen of England have a Christian duty to let me move in?

lsc | 9:26 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

As a Latter-Day Saint, and a hispanic, I am stunned at the Church's comment's concerning the illegal immigration problem. I understand compassion, but the rule of law has to be obeyed. As a convert, I wonder, does our Church's article of faith concerning obeying the laws of the land not count? Do we get to pick and choose the laws we obey, or the articles of faith that we believe in? Why does my child, if he or she wants to attend a public college in Utah, have to pay 3 times the tuition as an illegal alien? My children are citizens. This is chaos and as much as my Church believes in order, I am shocked by their stance.
Compassion is important, but there is an orderly and correct way to go about it.

Good Thing | 10:05 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

It is a good thing we aren't punished for the "sins" of our fathers. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed February 2, 1848. Utah, and much of the West, belonged to Mexico until that date in 1848. Clearly that date is after July 24, 1847 when the pioneers entered the valley. My ancestors and many of the poster's ancestors were "trespassing" on foreign soil when they entered the valley and started a better, safer life here. Maybe we should keep that historical fact in mind as we try to work out the illegal immigrant mess.

Peter | 11:36 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008

Questions not asked! As the "undocumented workers" continue to stream across our borders, our own government wants to track our every movement, every phone call, every e-mail. As our government continues to ask for more of our liberty and freedom in the guise of keeping us safe, tens of thousands cross our borders. Are they loyal to the United States? Are they criminals, terrorists? Are they loyal to the Constitution of the United States(what's left of it)? Are they supportive of keeping their Mexican citizenship (dual citizenship)? Are they supportive of La Raza and MEChA? I have compassion for those truly looking for a better life. Do it legally! By the way undocumented is still illegal.

Peter | 12:13 p.m. Feb. 19, 2008

you hit right on the botton! there's something called the North American Union 2005 that is still alive. find it read it!

RE: Isc | 12:21 p.m. Feb. 19, 2008

"Compassion is important, but there is an orderly and correct way to go about it."

As one who believes in the supreme importance of compassion and charity, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think for one minute that the Church is saying "Throw the borders open--no laws matter anymore." Nor would they *ever* say it--the many vehemently shouted OPINIONS on these boards notwithstanding.

No--read and think carefully. Instead, they're saying "Let's find a lawful solution to the problem of illegal immigration--BUT as we do so, don't forget we're dealing with human beings who deserve compassion and respect. Put aside any vengeful feelings and prejudice and be TRULY just."

That's not too much to ask. I believe Christ would say the same if He were here. In fact, it's entirely possible He IS saying precisely that through the prophets. Anybody ever considered that?

We need laws and respect for the laws--but we also need compassion. Both are important in a truly civilized society. And neither can rob the other.

In other words, it's not a question of whether to APPLY justice OR mercy. It's a question of how to BALANCE justice AND mercy. BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.

Sergeant at Law | 1:11 p.m. Feb. 19, 2008

There are two types of criminal offenses in the law. Malum in se (sp) and malum prohibitum. The first are those which are inherently wrong while the second are wrong only because they are prohibited by statute. One could make an arguement that there is a difference as far as "obeying the law of the land" between the two. For instance, every time you speed down I-15 (our your favorite local thoroughfare) you are in a state of lawbreaking. Now when you speed on your way to meet with the bishop you are in much the same position as an illegal immigrant. I've seen how people drive here in Utah (myself included) and if that offense were self reported the temples would be very empty indeed.

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