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Compassion call could affect immigration bills
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e.e.g. | 3:07 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
wow, anyone who accuses mormons of blindly following church leaders should look
at these user comments ... i guess when it comes to "illegals," we
don't much care what the church has to say. (or the book of mormon itself
-- please see my favorite immigration chapter, Alma 27).
Anonymous | 3:10 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Hard to believe there are STILL some people out there that think it possible
(and affordable) to round millions of people up.
But when you think of Hitler's "Final Solution" where there's a will - there's a way.
God forgive these sad radical right-wing people.
But when you think of Hitler's "Final Solution" where there's a will - there's a way.
God forgive these sad radical right-wing people.
Anonymous | 3:34 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I hope the LDS church is PROUD!
Comments continue below
American Citizen | 3:31 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You don't have to round folks us and send them home. If you enforce the
laws they will leave. Just look at OK, AZ and GA. Illegals are leaving by the
10's of thousands! Mexico didn't round them up yet they managed to get
rid of them......we can do the same!
Re AZLDS | 3:38 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
AZLDS,run for president won't you? Amen, brother.
To Prosecuter part I and II: | 3:46 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To Prosecuter part I and II and those that commented in Spanish:
I speak spanish so I understand what you wrote. I do want to thank you for highlighting what many already have issue with.....in this country we speak ENGLISH!
When I was in your countries, to be respectfull, and not be a burdon on others, I learned spanish. Please give us the same curtesy as you are obviosly an uninvited guest.
I speak spanish so I understand what you wrote. I do want to thank you for highlighting what many already have issue with.....in this country we speak ENGLISH!
When I was in your countries, to be respectfull, and not be a burdon on others, I learned spanish. Please give us the same curtesy as you are obviosly an uninvited guest.
Paul | 3:47 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
zenophobes
blowhards
smallminded
hatred
racist
vicious right wing movement
Nazis
spiteful
sad racist right-wing
Hitler's final solution
I just thought I would list some of the words and phrases used by the "compassionate" ones who are responding to, for the most part, thoughtful comments voiced in opposition to a free ride for illegals. And yes, "compassion" has been a code word in years past for "give them a free ride".
blowhards
smallminded
hatred
racist
vicious right wing movement
Nazis
spiteful
sad racist right-wing
Hitler's final solution
I just thought I would list some of the words and phrases used by the "compassionate" ones who are responding to, for the most part, thoughtful comments voiced in opposition to a free ride for illegals. And yes, "compassion" has been a code word in years past for "give them a free ride".
Follow the Logic in the Debate | 3:47 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Imagine that McDonalds needs to hire a new worker. They only want to pay $7.00
per hour. So they come to you and ask you to pay for health insurance for their
worker. They also want you to pay to educate their worker's children and be
sure it gets done in Spanish whatever that costs. If their worker quits or
becomes disabled you should cover their welfare expenses or diability.
Don't worry though because if you do this hamburgers will stay at 2.49
instead of 2.79 and McDonalds will keep their shareholders happy and we will all
prosper and thrive eating cheap hamburgers.
If you don't like this arrangement then you are a racist xenophobe with no compassion who doesn't care about splitting up families. Make sure you pay your church this Sunday as well otherwise they can't help out the McDonalds worker and his family and they might not make it here and have to go home.
If you are LDS take out your Articles of Faith and scratch off number twelve. Now you are versed in the current logic of this debate, makes sense for everyone but you doesn't it?
If you don't like this arrangement then you are a racist xenophobe with no compassion who doesn't care about splitting up families. Make sure you pay your church this Sunday as well otherwise they can't help out the McDonalds worker and his family and they might not make it here and have to go home.
If you are LDS take out your Articles of Faith and scratch off number twelve. Now you are versed in the current logic of this debate, makes sense for everyone but you doesn't it?
perlexed | 4:03 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Question: Doesn't the church consider "disciplinary counscils",
wherein someone is excommunicated for breaking aspects of God's LAWS, to
still be acts of compassion and love? When your children are given a
"consequence" for disobedience...are you acting in contempt for the
child, or in knowledge that there are correct principles they must learn to
abide. Sometimes administering a consequence is actually the right/compassionate
course. "Whom the Lord loveth He chastiseth."
I tire of the "uncompassionate" accusation asserted toward those who want the laws enforced.
Additionally, illegal immigration is not a MINOR "victimless" crime.
"Trespassing" may only comprise "coming onto property uninvited", but illegal-immigration adds THEFT to the violation.
Compassion doesn't negate obedience to the ten commandments either. Thou shalt NOT STEAL! Robbing Peter to pay Paul is governmental theft. My money is being stolen to support illegals. Money I need to raise my 6 daughters. Tax burdens that may force them/me into becoming "working" mothers rather than stay-at-home mothers... yet another disregarded prophetic admonition that leads to societal decay. I am sickened at the prospect of being taxed into the workplace for socialistic policies. The BofM teaches...20% tax was bondage! Illegals undeniably deepen our bondage.It's dishonest, illegal, selfish,and stealing.
I tire of the "uncompassionate" accusation asserted toward those who want the laws enforced.
Additionally, illegal immigration is not a MINOR "victimless" crime.
"Trespassing" may only comprise "coming onto property uninvited", but illegal-immigration adds THEFT to the violation.
Compassion doesn't negate obedience to the ten commandments either. Thou shalt NOT STEAL! Robbing Peter to pay Paul is governmental theft. My money is being stolen to support illegals. Money I need to raise my 6 daughters. Tax burdens that may force them/me into becoming "working" mothers rather than stay-at-home mothers... yet another disregarded prophetic admonition that leads to societal decay. I am sickened at the prospect of being taxed into the workplace for socialistic policies. The BofM teaches...20% tax was bondage! Illegals undeniably deepen our bondage.It's dishonest, illegal, selfish,and stealing.
American Citizen | 4:01 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
If the chruch wants to get involved in state and political matters then perhaps
they don't need to retain tax free status!
To e.e.g. | 4:04 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Referring to your Alma 27 referrence, please tell us what land you propose we
give them so that they can become self sufficient and prosper. To most of us,
it seems like they "prosper" because they invaded, and now take
advantage of the systme that is already bank rupt. There is no similarity to
the chapter you mentioned. Please go back and restudy it!!!
sane voice | 4:05 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The church is being far from hypocritial and many of the comments from members
of the church are just disturbing. When the Church mentioned compassion it did
not say to turn a blind eye. That would be in direct contradition to the 12th
article of faith. All members have always been taught to be compassionate
towards others. A Bishop is instructed to have compassion towards the
adulterer. Does that mean that he turns a blind eye to adultry? No. It
doesn't mean to pretend it is all o.k.. It means to treat people with
human respect and decency. They are saying that as a society we need to respect
them as humans and treat them fairly. In no way shape or form did the Church
say to disregard the law.
Voice of Reason | 4:09 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You know, I'm admittedly a pretty conservative guy - and not just in a
wierd, Ron Paul sort of way.
But even I think this bill stripping a couple hundred students whose parents happen to be illegal decided to bring their young children to the USA to grow up, goes too far. I believe in the rule of law as well, but come on, there's 12 MILLION of these people, most of whom are gainfully employed . . . and no, I don't think if they left that an army of 12 million Americans would suddenly show up to do their work at the wages they are being paid.
Absolutely, we need MUCH tighter borders. But let's not go crazy and villify millions of desperate (mostly) Latinos who are just trying to better their lives through good, hard work at good, productive jobs.
But even I think this bill stripping a couple hundred students whose parents happen to be illegal decided to bring their young children to the USA to grow up, goes too far. I believe in the rule of law as well, but come on, there's 12 MILLION of these people, most of whom are gainfully employed . . . and no, I don't think if they left that an army of 12 million Americans would suddenly show up to do their work at the wages they are being paid.
Absolutely, we need MUCH tighter borders. But let's not go crazy and villify millions of desperate (mostly) Latinos who are just trying to better their lives through good, hard work at good, productive jobs.
can dish it out but can't ... | 4:17 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Paul 3:47 -
Turn about is fair play, I guess.
the far-right has been dishing out the dirt for so long they no longer see it as dirt.
If words like Nazis, and Hitler bother you - perhaps you might do some research and see the historical similarities of that time in histor and now.
Turn about is fair play, I guess.
the far-right has been dishing out the dirt for so long they no longer see it as dirt.
If words like Nazis, and Hitler bother you - perhaps you might do some research and see the historical similarities of that time in histor and now.
Anonymous | 4:24 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Why do bad things always happen on Valentines Day?
Jud | 4:45 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
What is so hard? Set up a guestworker program, give them guestworker cards so we
know who's here, and then live and let live. We need them; they need us.
I've never seen harder workers than the Mexicans I've associated with.
They're good people and they need help. All this talk of deportation sounds
like Germany in the 1930s. Kudos to Elder Jensen.
Christ was the Divine Lawgiver | 4:41 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
All you people so fanatically obsessed with The Law--especially American
law--has it never crossed your minds that there may be higher principles than
mere politics at work here? Are there higher authorities to answer to than a
political party, a government, or a secular president?
Christ was the Divine Lawgiver. What did He say? LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. So somehow Elder Jensen is wrong in pointing out that THAT law trumps all others?
Show some compassion and decency, people. Many of you sound like the Nazis. (Compassionate as I'm trying to be, your own words condemn you.) Open your hearts to the fact that this issue involves REAL HUMAN BEINGS, not just "illegal immigrants."
I sympathize with those of you who have suffered at the hand of some illegals who have broken even more serious laws than crossing the border (itself not much worse than speeding). THAT group of immigrants is not welcome here.
However, the hard-core criminals are FAR from all who've crossed the border. Most just want to feed their families. The day *that's* a crime is the day I'll gladly move somewhere where people know what it means to be civilized.
Christ was the Divine Lawgiver. What did He say? LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. So somehow Elder Jensen is wrong in pointing out that THAT law trumps all others?
Show some compassion and decency, people. Many of you sound like the Nazis. (Compassionate as I'm trying to be, your own words condemn you.) Open your hearts to the fact that this issue involves REAL HUMAN BEINGS, not just "illegal immigrants."
I sympathize with those of you who have suffered at the hand of some illegals who have broken even more serious laws than crossing the border (itself not much worse than speeding). THAT group of immigrants is not welcome here.
However, the hard-core criminals are FAR from all who've crossed the border. Most just want to feed their families. The day *that's* a crime is the day I'll gladly move somewhere where people know what it means to be civilized.
beth | 4:52 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
"... And next time you're doing 85 on I-15 with your radar detector,
think about yourself and the 12th Article of Faith."
AMEN! There is none righteous... NO - not ONE!
I'm sure there have been many laws which our ancestors' and their contemporaries would have like to seen enforced. I'm certain that underground rail-roads and the run-away slaves were breaking the law. Would you enforce those laws?
OUR government is fluid. We can ammend laws in compassion, and establish new laws AND enforce them. God's law - however - is unchangeable.
P.S. I'm sick of bed-time stories chalked full of criminals and monsters. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Klan was founded to apprehend criminals, too.
AMEN! There is none righteous... NO - not ONE!
I'm sure there have been many laws which our ancestors' and their contemporaries would have like to seen enforced. I'm certain that underground rail-roads and the run-away slaves were breaking the law. Would you enforce those laws?
OUR government is fluid. We can ammend laws in compassion, and establish new laws AND enforce them. God's law - however - is unchangeable.
P.S. I'm sick of bed-time stories chalked full of criminals and monsters. Besides, I'm pretty sure the Klan was founded to apprehend criminals, too.
Peter | 5:07 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Appeal to the Book of Mormon or prophecy that the Lamanites have some God-given
right to enter the U.S., are silly - especially in light of recent DNA research
that shows these "illegal immigrants" are really of Siberian origin.
In other words, the Ancient Asians are entering out country illegally!
Don't let your silly religious superstitions cloud clear thinking. Illegal immigration is a HUGE economic, political, human services, and social problem that MUST be addressed effectively in this next election. Otherwise, the security of this nation is at risk.
Don't let your silly religious superstitions cloud clear thinking. Illegal immigration is a HUGE economic, political, human services, and social problem that MUST be addressed effectively in this next election. Otherwise, the security of this nation is at risk.
Spanky | 5:39 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The LDS church excommunicates members for disagreeing with church doctrine, but
has compassion for those illegal aliens who break the laws of the land. Nice. No
wonder the LDS church took such a beating in the press when Romney was running.
The LDS church is doing this for two reasons. The influence that rich business
owners have in the church who need cheap labor. To help in converting hispanics
to the LDS faith. This has nothing whatsoever to do with compassion, or the LDS
church would show some compassion to those legal members who lose their jobs and
are paid low wages because of illegal immigrants. And please, please don't
play the race card, this has nothing to do with race. If it was Canadians coming
across the border, it would be the same thing.
here it comes ... | 5:42 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Uh-huh.
Here it comes.
Peter uses the same old fear-mongering tactic that is do identifiable with the wacky radical right.
My prediction: we are going to be hearing the words liberal and security at such a record-breaking pace
until November, we'll be saying those words in our sleep.
Here it comes.
Peter uses the same old fear-mongering tactic that is do identifiable with the wacky radical right.
My prediction: we are going to be hearing the words liberal and security at such a record-breaking pace
until November, we'll be saying those words in our sleep.
Mitch van Biljon | 5:49 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Anonymous:Of the 6 industries where there are many illegals employed more than
80% of laborers are US citizens. Only the agricultural sector has a majority of
latino workers. Your notion that americans will not do the work is blatantly
false. Your reference to Hitler implying that we are Nazi's in wanting our
laws honored tells me you are a fascist. Read the Nazi party's 25 point
party platform and you will see it is a liberal philosophy. Why no reference to
other countries who do control their borders effectively and have very stringent
immigration laws i.e. New Zealand? This is why New Zealand is striving and the
US is in dire straights.
Prophet: Give up on your interpretation of prophecy as no where is there a prophecy that the Lamanites will come to accept the gospel in the US. They will accept it in their country. As a side note Mexico is in North America.
Dave: With the US in debt to the tune of $53 trillion (that is right...trillion) made up of the current $10 trillion of debt plus $43 to meet social security obligations we cannot afford to educate the illegals masses at the expense of our kids.
Prophet: Give up on your interpretation of prophecy as no where is there a prophecy that the Lamanites will come to accept the gospel in the US. They will accept it in their country. As a side note Mexico is in North America.
Dave: With the US in debt to the tune of $53 trillion (that is right...trillion) made up of the current $10 trillion of debt plus $43 to meet social security obligations we cannot afford to educate the illegals masses at the expense of our kids.
Re: Jesus was wrong 2:25 | 6:33 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
So whats the analogy here?
Jesus arranged it so she wouldn't be stoned = The LDS church asks that laws be carefully considered and compassion weigh heavily in any decision.
Jesus arranged it so she wouldn't be stoned = desnews has specifically lobbied against law that would repeal in state tution and drivers permission cards + other possible laws = LDS appeals to keep compassion uppermost in mind.
Jesus said go and sin no more = Now that we are going to apply compassion to you who have crossed the border against law, you need to obey the laws in the future (same as the rest of us).
Remember Jesus arranged it so the penality of law wasn't carried out = we put compassion first in this issue and with these people in all we do.
Jesus arranged it so she wouldn't be stoned = The LDS church asks that laws be carefully considered and compassion weigh heavily in any decision.
Jesus arranged it so she wouldn't be stoned = desnews has specifically lobbied against law that would repeal in state tution and drivers permission cards + other possible laws = LDS appeals to keep compassion uppermost in mind.
Jesus said go and sin no more = Now that we are going to apply compassion to you who have crossed the border against law, you need to obey the laws in the future (same as the rest of us).
Remember Jesus arranged it so the penality of law wasn't carried out = we put compassion first in this issue and with these people in all we do.
To Sharon Martinez: | 6:37 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
That is a classic example of wresting the scriptures. Go back and read 2nd
Nephi chapter one starting in verse 5. It talks about people that are brought
here by the hand of god (hmmmn) not those that sneak in under the fence. Show
me one illegal with a Liahona, and I will convert to your way of thinking. It
also talks about obey gods laws (Article 12 comes to mind).
Your argument made me laugh. Thank you! I needed one. No seriously.
To those that try to say that Jesus broke the law, great argument. Isn't he involved in creating the commandments found in the scriptures about being subject to kings, rulers, governments, etc. He can break the law as he is over all the earth. Brother Torres from Tijuana can't.
Oh�one more thing. Go read 1 Nephi 16:2. I think this is why there is so much rationalization on one side of the issue.
Your argument made me laugh. Thank you! I needed one. No seriously.
To those that try to say that Jesus broke the law, great argument. Isn't he involved in creating the commandments found in the scriptures about being subject to kings, rulers, governments, etc. He can break the law as he is over all the earth. Brother Torres from Tijuana can't.
Oh�one more thing. Go read 1 Nephi 16:2. I think this is why there is so much rationalization on one side of the issue.
Jon Allen | 6:52 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I love the Church, but I'll admit I'm disappointed they are trying to
influence this issue. Aren't we supposed to be politically neutral?
Besides, I'm not sure that using taxpayer money to support the children of
illegals is fair to taxpayers. This issue is being played out in the
presidential election as well, and I think it ought to remain strictly in the
political sphere. In my opinion it seems misguided to inject a feeling of
"religious duty" into whether one should or shouldn't support
this issue. Let's keep religion and politics separate.
David | 9:09 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Compassion would best come in the form of enforcing the existing laws - all of
the laws. I agree that measured and thorough deliberations are paramount.
However, if one does not agree with the law, then each citizen has a
representative voice in our government to try to change that law - - - but, in
the meantime, we (citizens and non-citizens alike) have an obligation and sacred
duty to obey those laws that have been enacted.
Our government is hypocritical to enact laws after due legislative process, then proceed not to enforce those laws.
The confusing message both from the government and the church becomes a question of "which felonies are OK to commit (e.g., not paying taxes, identity theft, etc.), and which laws actually must be obeyed"?
Our government is hypocritical to enact laws after due legislative process, then proceed not to enforce those laws.
The confusing message both from the government and the church becomes a question of "which felonies are OK to commit (e.g., not paying taxes, identity theft, etc.), and which laws actually must be obeyed"?
tired | 9:55 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
why is it if I want the immigration laws enforced I am racist? not someone who
loves this country and hates to see such a lack of respect for our laws?
Also if there are 12 million isn't that enough people to demand changes to their own country? why are they always trying to change mine?
Also if there are 12 million isn't that enough people to demand changes to their own country? why are they always trying to change mine?
Anonymous | 12:01 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
nuf said.
American Citizen | 12:42 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
FOR IMMGRATION REFORM NOW !!
FOR IMMGRATION REFORM NOW !!
FOR IMMGRATION REFORM NOW !!
Anonymous | 12:49 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Jesus told the to go, and sin no more.
I agree with him.
I agree with him.
Troutman | 12:50 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
The lawmakers are not the ones out of touch, it is the Leaders of the Church on
this one! I have never gone against the Church before, but in this one, I am
sorry, they are wrong in their thinking. The Missionaries in all lands teach
their investigators to Honor and Obey the Law no matter what country they are
in. I know, My son just returned from Mexico City, and that is one of the first
principles they were told to teach. To honor and obey all Laws, no matter what
country you are in! No the Church leaders are saying, go easy on them,
don't worry about them breaking the law if they are illegal? Not common
sense, not right, not what Jesus and God would say! It makes a mockery out of
the 12th article of Faith by our first Prophet Joseph Smith!
Brother Jensen, Elder Ballard, I respectfully disagree with you both!
Brother Jensen, Elder Ballard, I respectfully disagree with you both!
Peter | 8:02 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Comparisons between illegal immigration and speeding or jaywalking or simple
tresspassing only reveal the ignorance of the person making the comment,
including "Elder" Jensen.
For a number of reasons, illegal entrance into any country is a serious matter, and a significant crime. But it is also a violation of the laws of God (it violates several of the Ten Commandments, as well as tenets of the LDS faith and worthiness standards). For an official representative of the LDS Church to say what Jensen said is shocking and appalling. It is the harbinger of anarchy and lawlessness, and reveals the contradictions in the Church leadership - preaching we must obey the laws of the land, but then condoning breaking the laws of the land.
To those who call for mercy and compassion, shall we also give amnesty and "compassion" to all those who commit home invasion robberies? Or hold-up banks at gunpoint? Or embezzle funds from their companies? Or who rape and murder young children (its just minor "tresspassing" on their bodies)?
Illegal immigration steals from others. It affects legal citizens' livelihoods. It contributes to gang violence, drug trafficking, and violent crime such as aggravated assault and murder.
Wake up.
For a number of reasons, illegal entrance into any country is a serious matter, and a significant crime. But it is also a violation of the laws of God (it violates several of the Ten Commandments, as well as tenets of the LDS faith and worthiness standards). For an official representative of the LDS Church to say what Jensen said is shocking and appalling. It is the harbinger of anarchy and lawlessness, and reveals the contradictions in the Church leadership - preaching we must obey the laws of the land, but then condoning breaking the laws of the land.
To those who call for mercy and compassion, shall we also give amnesty and "compassion" to all those who commit home invasion robberies? Or hold-up banks at gunpoint? Or embezzle funds from their companies? Or who rape and murder young children (its just minor "tresspassing" on their bodies)?
Illegal immigration steals from others. It affects legal citizens' livelihoods. It contributes to gang violence, drug trafficking, and violent crime such as aggravated assault and murder.
Wake up.
Stinger | 10:06 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Troutman,
Thanks for your thoughts on this and for millions of members who agree with you.
It's time church court was held on someone other than the regular tithe payer. Members should have a say.
There will be those who fall from high places in the latter days. Try a GA for a change. it's happened before and will happen again. They are regular men and should be tried in church courts.
Thanks for your thoughts on this and for millions of members who agree with you.
It's time church court was held on someone other than the regular tithe payer. Members should have a say.
There will be those who fall from high places in the latter days. Try a GA for a change. it's happened before and will happen again. They are regular men and should be tried in church courts.
PAY a Fine & LEGALIZE | 12:02 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Pay Taxes Clean Criminal Records pay Fine = get the RESIDENT CARD ( fee ) (
can be revoked ) 5 years later of showing that he/she is a contributing member
to Society can apply to CITIZENSHIP (fee ) ..
Anonymous | 12:08 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I would like my tithing refunded! I need it worse than the illegals. PLEASE!
MexAmeriCanada! | 3:13 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
This whole imigration mess (and it IS a huge mess) is the result of hand
wringing and inaction 25 years ago. Nobody likes the thought of asking someone
to leave and go back to Mexico or central America. Mexico is a hopelessly
corrupt country with no opportunity. Other than the tourist areas, it is a
horrible place. I can see why people would do anything legally or illegally to
get here. BUT the fact of the matter is this: If you are here illegally, you
are using services (health care, education, law enforcement) that American
taxpayers paid for. If you here illegally and paying taxes, you stole
someone's identity...maybe even my child's social security number.
Something drastic better happen soon. When you break our laws, you kill the
goose that laid the golden egg. I personally want them here...LEGALLY! If you
want to be an American, do it and do it the right way.
Dave | 12:03 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Compassion? Where is the compassion in giving someone who is here illegally in
state tuition but making a legal resident of the USA but who is from another
state pay a higher tuition rate?
The church would do well to stick with their policy of not saying anything in regards to most political matters as not to make hypocrites out of themselves in regards to respecting the laws of the land.
The church would do well to stick with their policy of not saying anything in regards to most political matters as not to make hypocrites out of themselves in regards to respecting the laws of the land.
Anonymous | 3:59 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Reread the article, the church took no position.
Arizona and several other states have written laws demanding business that hire illegals will lose their licence. Illegals are moving out of those states in droves. As they move to new states, that state will become overwhelmed and have to change the laws.
I would feel much better if people in Authority in the Church also commented on the 10-18 million Americans that have had their identity stolen so illegals could get social security numbers, or the American worker who for the past several years had a golden opportunity to get raises with jobs outnumbering people. And now are left with nothing but competition during the coming recession. They need to remind us to have compassion for them also. Otherwise they ARE taking sides.
Arizona and several other states have written laws demanding business that hire illegals will lose their licence. Illegals are moving out of those states in droves. As they move to new states, that state will become overwhelmed and have to change the laws.
I would feel much better if people in Authority in the Church also commented on the 10-18 million Americans that have had their identity stolen so illegals could get social security numbers, or the American worker who for the past several years had a golden opportunity to get raises with jobs outnumbering people. And now are left with nothing but competition during the coming recession. They need to remind us to have compassion for them also. Otherwise they ARE taking sides.
Anonymous | 3:26 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Here's an idea. Make the companies that hire illegal aliens become their
sponsors, pay the fees and fines for them, so they can be legalized. This way,
companies that rely on this "cheap" labor can foot the bill for
legalizing them! This accomplishes both a reduction in companies hiring
illegals, and a reduction in illegal immigrants while still enabling the US to
continue exploiting that labor force.
Park City Resident | 5:30 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
The "compassion" movement is being fueled by business owners that
don't want to give up their slave labor workforce.
Truth is | 7:27 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Truth is the U.S. has a lot of persons who are a drain on the economy and do
illegal things.
There are plenty of poor white people who commit crimes, use free or discounted school lunches, qualify for Medicaid or CHIP, receive WIC, receive the earned income tax credit, which is essentially a cash payment for people who work but are still poor.
Then there are businesses and major corporations which set up offshore accounts, get major tax cuts, pay less taxes on capital gains, receive massive farm subsidies, screw up the world financial market by offering ridiculously low interest loans people can't afford.
Don't forget old people too. They are a drain on Medicare, Social security.
Disabled people get disability payments.
Veterans get free health care.
The U.S. supports a lot of people who are a drain on society. It does so because nobody should go hungry, sick, unsheltered.
Compassion doesn't necessarily mean amnesty or ignoring laws. It just means loving your neighbor as yourself.
To those who think obeying the law of the land is a core tenet of the LDS faith or the laws of the land are as important as God's laws ... so misguided.
There are plenty of poor white people who commit crimes, use free or discounted school lunches, qualify for Medicaid or CHIP, receive WIC, receive the earned income tax credit, which is essentially a cash payment for people who work but are still poor.
Then there are businesses and major corporations which set up offshore accounts, get major tax cuts, pay less taxes on capital gains, receive massive farm subsidies, screw up the world financial market by offering ridiculously low interest loans people can't afford.
Don't forget old people too. They are a drain on Medicare, Social security.
Disabled people get disability payments.
Veterans get free health care.
The U.S. supports a lot of people who are a drain on society. It does so because nobody should go hungry, sick, unsheltered.
Compassion doesn't necessarily mean amnesty or ignoring laws. It just means loving your neighbor as yourself.
To those who think obeying the law of the land is a core tenet of the LDS faith or the laws of the land are as important as God's laws ... so misguided.
I would rather | 8:48 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
be called a racist on this one..as the borders are too open and logic tells me
that terrorist or those wishing to overthrow this country have also gotten in.
If Israel can't control their borders and are terrorized what's to
stop the more sophisticated illegals from other countries from getting in and
setting up their bombs as they do against our forces in Irag, we are at war and
when 9/11 happened the border should have been secured right off!. But no
everyone wants compassion so lets just let the whole world know that if a third
world people can come and go ..then they might as well to. I feel for the border
patrol and law enforcement , then this state as the welcome mat is out.
Render unto Caesar | 8:50 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
I assume most people are familiar with Christ's teaching to render unto
Caesar that which is Caesar, and to God that which is God's?
Christ DID teach that we should cooperate with just laws and be an orderly people. He DID teach that outright rebellion against those laws is not our duty as disciples and that we have no need to break laws. He DID teach that His House is a house of order and that we should follow His Gospel as our first priority. He DID teach us that we should have compassion for each other and love our neighbors as ourselves.
He did NOT teach that Caesar is like unto God and that we must obey all Caesar's laws to be worthy of all His blessings. He did NOT teach that people who break any of Caesar's laws are worthy only of our scorn and contempt. He did NOT teach that we should hate people who crossed national borders without visas. He did NOT teach that we are justified in censuring church officials just because we fail to understand the teachings of our own Lawgiver--who taught compassion.
Christ DID teach that we should cooperate with just laws and be an orderly people. He DID teach that outright rebellion against those laws is not our duty as disciples and that we have no need to break laws. He DID teach that His House is a house of order and that we should follow His Gospel as our first priority. He DID teach us that we should have compassion for each other and love our neighbors as ourselves.
He did NOT teach that Caesar is like unto God and that we must obey all Caesar's laws to be worthy of all His blessings. He did NOT teach that people who break any of Caesar's laws are worthy only of our scorn and contempt. He did NOT teach that we should hate people who crossed national borders without visas. He did NOT teach that we are justified in censuring church officials just because we fail to understand the teachings of our own Lawgiver--who taught compassion.
Hmm_okay | 9:06 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
I thought the LDS church believed in (a) obeying the law and (b) doing things in
wisdom and order.
I guess the LDS church leadership has no compassion for those who are following the law, paying money they can't afford to give away for immigration filing fees, lawyers, medical reports, biometrics, and every other test the US government devises to assure compliance with immigration law. Where is your compassion for the millions of legal immigrants still in the system after up to 20 years, or even more?
Where is your compassion for those adversely affected by identity theft, fraud, and other crimes committed by people "desperate to feed their families?" At the very least, illegal border crossers are guilty of trespassing, but in order to work, they have to willfully commit a number of crimes to obtain "legal"-looking paperwork.
Why is it that you have so much compassion on people who lie, steal, cheat, and "love and make a lie"? Could it be because you (LDS CHURCH) employ them to build your great and spacious buildings downtown?
I guess the LDS church leadership has no compassion for those who are following the law, paying money they can't afford to give away for immigration filing fees, lawyers, medical reports, biometrics, and every other test the US government devises to assure compliance with immigration law. Where is your compassion for the millions of legal immigrants still in the system after up to 20 years, or even more?
Where is your compassion for those adversely affected by identity theft, fraud, and other crimes committed by people "desperate to feed their families?" At the very least, illegal border crossers are guilty of trespassing, but in order to work, they have to willfully commit a number of crimes to obtain "legal"-looking paperwork.
Why is it that you have so much compassion on people who lie, steal, cheat, and "love and make a lie"? Could it be because you (LDS CHURCH) employ them to build your great and spacious buildings downtown?
FG | 2:02 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
C. Dean: Only the pesident of the church is a Prophet and receives revelation
for the Church. Notice he did not go.
Immigration laws exist to protect the worker. Every country has them. For example Mexico's are much worse than ours. As far as punishment and strict rules. Commpassion yes, while enforcing the law? Yes.
It's sad the leaders of the various churches did not touch on compassion for the disabled. There programs have been underfunded for years.
Immigration laws exist to protect the worker. Every country has them. For example Mexico's are much worse than ours. As far as punishment and strict rules. Commpassion yes, while enforcing the law? Yes.
It's sad the leaders of the various churches did not touch on compassion for the disabled. There programs have been underfunded for years.
TAH, TAH just visiting | 6:27 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
It's getting quite chilly in here!
Well then | 4:19 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
if we gonna render then we might as surrender to Osama as in el boma!
Render unto Caeser | 7:58 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Where did Christ in his admonition to render under Caeser have qualifications?
Your interpretation of what Christ said frankly sucks. He expects us to honor
the law as that ensures order and lack of chaos. It is in such an environment
that liberty prevails. Who hates people who have broken the law? Grow up as such
emotional tripe does not win you any support. Whilst I am sure there are a few
haters of illegals by far the majority do actually respect the law and
understand the relationship between law and order.
Since you are intent on blind compassion I suggest you send a monthly check to the mexicans/other nationalities so that they do not need to come here and place a heavy burden on our society. This enables you to satisfy your �conscience� and meet the needs of others who wish to maintain liberty and the rule of law. It is very easy to be compassionate with another's money. Liberalsim is such a mental disorder. Like they say if you are in college and are not a liberal you have no heart and if an adult and not a conservative you have no brain.
Since you are intent on blind compassion I suggest you send a monthly check to the mexicans/other nationalities so that they do not need to come here and place a heavy burden on our society. This enables you to satisfy your �conscience� and meet the needs of others who wish to maintain liberty and the rule of law. It is very easy to be compassionate with another's money. Liberalsim is such a mental disorder. Like they say if you are in college and are not a liberal you have no heart and if an adult and not a conservative you have no brain.
Render unto Caeser | 7:58 p.m. F | 1:10 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008
Your personal attack on my words speaks for itself. FYI: I am no
"liberal." I simply believe Christ is our Lawgiver, and that we should
help people who are only trying to help themselves. (Next, a few words from the
bigoted and spiteful about "helping themselves.") I also pity those
who believe the law of the land is equivalent to scripture. Much like straining
at a gnat and swallowing a camel, if you will.
You may be interested to know I live in a border state and have met many illegals. I know exactly what I'm talking about. There is a criminal element among them that should be kept out and punished, yes. Agreed: THAT group is the one we really ought to build the wall for. Also agreed: The worst thing we can do is nothing.
But here's an unfortunate truth for you: Most illegal immigrants aren't here to flaunt our laws. You might try to educate yourself some time in that respect. You preach a great deal about law and order. But I've gotta tell ya, the anger, bitterness, and prejudice I see in your words also has no place in a truly civilized society.
You may be interested to know I live in a border state and have met many illegals. I know exactly what I'm talking about. There is a criminal element among them that should be kept out and punished, yes. Agreed: THAT group is the one we really ought to build the wall for. Also agreed: The worst thing we can do is nothing.
But here's an unfortunate truth for you: Most illegal immigrants aren't here to flaunt our laws. You might try to educate yourself some time in that respect. You preach a great deal about law and order. But I've gotta tell ya, the anger, bitterness, and prejudice I see in your words also has no place in a truly civilized society.
hmm_okay | 5:38 a.m. Feb. 19, 2008
No matter why the illegal immigrants are here, they are here illegally.
They've already flaunted our laws, and will do so again.
Allow all the legal immigrants to become permanent residents.
Wait your turn.
Allow all the legal immigrants to become permanent residents.
Wait your turn.
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Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret Morning News
University of Utah students Makiko Sato, left, Denise Castaneda and Carmela Willden show support at Capitol Thursday for law that allows children of undocumented parents to pay in-state tuition at state colleges and universities. A bill seeks to repeal the law.
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