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Compassion call could affect immigration bills
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Perpetual Removal Fund | 11:38 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
How about establishing a "Perpetual Removal Fund," managed by the
Church and funded by members' fast offerings, to financially help those
individuals that have to return -voluntarily or otherwise- to their native
countries?
Jesus was wrong? | 11:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
When Jesus pardoned the women caught in Adultery, so she wouldn't be
stoned, he should have realized, the law is the law, illegal is illegal. How is
it Jesus didn't understand this?
AZLDS | 11:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Amen to political "..next time you're doing 85 on I-15...12th article
of faith.
To all you pretending to be lds bashing the church, I don't worry about your criticism.
But to anyone who is publicly challenging our leaders on this issue, please be sure to be equally as brave/outspoken next time you go in for a temple recommend and answer the question about sustaining both local and general leaders of the church.
And please, stop putting words in brother Jensen's mouth. He is not condoning illegal actions, he's simply asking for a kinder more Chrstlike approach to an issue that seems to bring out the most vile and hateful feelings from the hearts of otherwise decent people. Let's pray for clear, objective solutions to this nationwide problem. And btw, the numbers are far greater than 9-10 million. It's more like 30-40 million. So don't think the migra is just going to be able to scoop them up and haul them away. We need more honest/compassionate thinkers and less hatred.
To all you pretending to be lds bashing the church, I don't worry about your criticism.
But to anyone who is publicly challenging our leaders on this issue, please be sure to be equally as brave/outspoken next time you go in for a temple recommend and answer the question about sustaining both local and general leaders of the church.
And please, stop putting words in brother Jensen's mouth. He is not condoning illegal actions, he's simply asking for a kinder more Chrstlike approach to an issue that seems to bring out the most vile and hateful feelings from the hearts of otherwise decent people. Let's pray for clear, objective solutions to this nationwide problem. And btw, the numbers are far greater than 9-10 million. It's more like 30-40 million. So don't think the migra is just going to be able to scoop them up and haul them away. We need more honest/compassionate thinkers and less hatred.
Comments continue below
Political Interference | 11:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The LDS Church should loose its tax exempt status and let them pay the taxes on
their 7-8 estimated billion dollars they rake in each year. How about the LDS
Church pay taxes to support their zeal for compassion to support the illegal
aliens that they hope to convert!!
Liberal means compassionate | 11:48 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Good to see that in spite of the blowhards from the radical right, there are
people willing to do the right thing.
Compassion is everything.
Compassion is everything.
Hey Terry | 11:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
They may have been legal, but once they entered the U.S. illegally...need I say
more??
sponsor | 11:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
if the Church is willing to tell our Legislatures how to think in terms of
compassion for Illegal Aliens, would the Church be willing to sponsor the
ILLEGALS, to pay their legal fees for immigrating the right way, pay their
welfare claims and medical claims. Some pay taxes but not enough. Would the
Church be willing to pay for their education so the burden is not on the tax
payer and they could have private schools so the public schools are not
overcrowded and American citizens put on the burner for illegal alien children
with language problems
Jesus did it | 11:59 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Even Jesus didn't always obey the law. The law said the woman caught in
adultery should have been stoned, yet Jesus let her go. Given this why do so
many think it strange that we put compassion in 1st place?
Dsr | 11:55 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
It is interesting that those who cite the 12th article of faith as the position
of the Church on illegal immigration are the same ones who are conveniently
discrediting the Church when it actually comes out and says what its position is
on this issue.
Crossing the border is not a moral sin. Border laws are to keep order. The current laws are not keeping order so we need to change them. Make the illegals not-illegal and then they won't be breaking the law. Make it easier to come here legally (visas, etc. )and harder to come illegally (build a wall if you please) and then the only ones who will be breaking the law to get here will be the true criminals.
Crossing the border is not a moral sin. Border laws are to keep order. The current laws are not keeping order so we need to change them. Make the illegals not-illegal and then they won't be breaking the law. Make it easier to come here legally (visas, etc. )and harder to come illegally (build a wall if you please) and then the only ones who will be breaking the law to get here will be the true criminals.
Rule of Law | 12:05 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This desire for "retention" is corrupting the Church.
Take illegal immigrants, for example. They are violating the laws of the nation. And just as with anyone who violates the laws of the nation in which they live, they are NOT "being honest in [their] dealings with their fellowman".
Moreover, they are "supporting, affiliating with, or agreeing with groups or individuals whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," which officially teaches that we are to be "subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" (Pearl of Great Price, Article of Faith 12).
Therefore, being an illegal immigrant disqualifies them from Temple worthiness, and any Church authority who knowingly grants temple recommends to illegal immigrants is violating Church doctrine as well as acting as an accessory to a criminal act.
Statements by Church authorities supporting illegal immigration and exempting themselves from "enforcement" are repugnant to we who believe in the rule of law and the Constitution of this great nation. This is corruption and ecclesiastical apostasy.
Take illegal immigrants, for example. They are violating the laws of the nation. And just as with anyone who violates the laws of the nation in which they live, they are NOT "being honest in [their] dealings with their fellowman".
Moreover, they are "supporting, affiliating with, or agreeing with groups or individuals whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," which officially teaches that we are to be "subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" (Pearl of Great Price, Article of Faith 12).
Therefore, being an illegal immigrant disqualifies them from Temple worthiness, and any Church authority who knowingly grants temple recommends to illegal immigrants is violating Church doctrine as well as acting as an accessory to a criminal act.
Statements by Church authorities supporting illegal immigration and exempting themselves from "enforcement" are repugnant to we who believe in the rule of law and the Constitution of this great nation. This is corruption and ecclesiastical apostasy.
Chris | 12:18 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Thanks to the few of you who have called for tolerance regarding illegal
immigrants. Shame on those of you who are small-minded and unaccepting. Some
of you claim to be Christian. Notice it's not just the LDS church calling
for compassion, but several Utah religious leaders. Do your research and you
will find it's not just illegals committing crimes-- the media reports on
what they choose to. There are plenty of legal white citizens taking advantage
of the system. Lawmakers are offering simplistic solutions that will compound
the problem. What we need is a thoughtful answer to this problem. President
Bush had the right idea.
Sharon Martinez | 12:17 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This message is for the Mormons in the room, but I know you'll be bashing
so have at it. Just wait until some of you get a call to serve in a Spanish
branch near you. You'll find out that bishops are illegal, new converts
are given the priesthood that are illegal, couples are married in the temple
that are illegal. The day will come when you have to make a choice to live with
this inside the church. If you speak Spanish and your a Stake President, just
wait for that call because you'll be serving the illegals in the church.
You have GOT to start seeing the issue differently, because in general these are
real people who aren't here to raid our resources. Look around people and
read 2nd Nephi. I heard President Hinkley say out of his own mouth in a Spanish
initiative meeting that it's happening now, not later. Think about it will
you please, what does that mean to you as a Mormon. If people can tell their
stake president that they're illegal and they still get a temple recommend
what does it Mean??? Get with it people. Go at it anti's.
katamb | 12:19 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
"Anyone who meets the residency requirements for in-state tuition should
receive it. If we let them go to our high schools, we have helped them meet the
residency requirement." I agree, but let's get the parents legal so
they're honest in all their dealings, and hey have the same freedoms we
enjoy, including getting paid an honest wage for an honest day's work and
not living in fear. Wouldn't we all cross the border if he heard the wages
and living standards were better in Canada?
1984 is back .... | 12:22 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
"Jensen, speaking at a forum at Westminster College, emphasized that The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hasn't taken a position on any
particular legislation. He did say, however, that he was speaking on behalf of
the LDS Church's governing First Presidency"
This is perhaps the most "Orwellian" statement I have heard in a long time. It is just not honest.
This is perhaps the most "Orwellian" statement I have heard in a long time. It is just not honest.
Anonymous | 12:26 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Me -
Article of Faith 12 also is glaring about being subject to authority. Looks like the authorities are handling it the best and humane way possible - with compassion
Article of Faith 12 also is glaring about being subject to authority. Looks like the authorities are handling it the best and humane way possible - with compassion
To: Prosecutor (part II) | 12:41 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To: Prosecutor (part II)
Dicen tambi�n que los inmigrantes no pagan sus taxes, pero como lo har�n si no tienen un #SS?
Solo me gustar�a decirle que la mayor�a de la gente engendra sentimientos de miedo y racismo debido a que son manipulados por hombres poderosos que inculcan en la sociedad dos posiciones: (1) El asecho y el peligro que representan los inmigrantes indocumentados; (2) Cierto humanitarismo y compasi�n para con los mismos.
De esta manera, y por medio de este juego logran que nunca los inmigrantes indocumentados tengan derecho a reclamar por las condiciones de trabajo y salarios que les dan y por otro se aseguran que estos siempre est�n. Una modernizaci�n de la esclavitud.
Antes era con la gente de raza negra, con cadenas y grilletes y en las plantaciones de algod�n; ahora son con papeles, redadas espor�dicas preparadas para atemorizar y en plantaciones de todo tipo dentro EEUU, fabricas de producci�n, restaurantes, empresas de limpieza, etc
No los echan, porque seria la estocada final para una econom�a en decadencia y pero tampoco los reconocen para que no pueden reclamar.
Dicen tambi�n que los inmigrantes no pagan sus taxes, pero como lo har�n si no tienen un #SS?
Solo me gustar�a decirle que la mayor�a de la gente engendra sentimientos de miedo y racismo debido a que son manipulados por hombres poderosos que inculcan en la sociedad dos posiciones: (1) El asecho y el peligro que representan los inmigrantes indocumentados; (2) Cierto humanitarismo y compasi�n para con los mismos.
De esta manera, y por medio de este juego logran que nunca los inmigrantes indocumentados tengan derecho a reclamar por las condiciones de trabajo y salarios que les dan y por otro se aseguran que estos siempre est�n. Una modernizaci�n de la esclavitud.
Antes era con la gente de raza negra, con cadenas y grilletes y en las plantaciones de algod�n; ahora son con papeles, redadas espor�dicas preparadas para atemorizar y en plantaciones de todo tipo dentro EEUU, fabricas de producci�n, restaurantes, empresas de limpieza, etc
No los echan, porque seria la estocada final para una econom�a en decadencia y pero tampoco los reconocen para que no pueden reclamar.
Law for you, amnesty for me | 12:37 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
So many people here think it is amnesty if the undocumented among us pay a fine
and then are allowed to stay. Yet these same people would howell if every time
they were caught speeding they weren't allowed to pay a fine, but instead
were sent home and not allowed to continue on to their destination.
The "Law and Order" types it seems, value the law when it is directed at others, but want amnesty (by their own definition) when it is directed at them.
The "Law and Order" types it seems, value the law when it is directed at others, but want amnesty (by their own definition) when it is directed at them.
C. Dean | 12:38 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Why can't you Mormons follow what the church leaders want? Aren't they
prophets and know best what is good for Utah and the church?
Native | 12:49 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
As a Native American I wish all of you would get out and give back what belongs
to me. You raped my people, murdered us, treat us as second class citizens and
take what you please.
Outrage at racism | 12:52 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I am frankly outraged at the number of racists comments reported on this
blogged, thinly veiled as a respect for the law. The only thing the LDS and
other Utah churches said is that we should remember that we are dealing with
lives of people here. I am astonished that there is so much hatred amongst the
good people of Utah that so few are able to step back and contemplate and ponder
what was said by religious leaders, who rightfully should act as a moral compass
(apparently much needed) for society.
AmericanCitizen | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Compassion for EVERYONE except the U.S. CITIZENS? Illegals break countless laws
coming here, working here and living here.....they drive illegally, they steal
identites, they forge documents and so on and when caught they are usually
simply deported without ever spending a day in jail for the many crimes they
commit. And when those same crimes are committed by American citizens, the
citizens are put in prison and separated from their families (even if they are
the only breadwinner) and not once do we hear "compassion" pleas! This
is not about 'compassion', it's about the laws and enforcing
them!
Anonymous | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I see lot of HYPOCRISY and a lot of excuses for it. Someone needs to get thing
straight. Until then I am no longer a member of the church!
Anonymous | 1:18 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To Gringos! Ahuh ahuh! we stay you leave. Ahuh!Ahuh!
Paul | 1:21 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Jesus didn't pardon the woman caught in adultery. He challenged those ewho
were going to stone them and they left one by one. Are we to understand from
"Jesus was Wrong?" that Jesus will pardon us of all of our sins? Or
will we be pardoned only if we repent - one of the requirements of which is to
make restitution and another is to never to do it again? If it's the
former, then why are we so concerned about breaking the law of the land or the
law of God? He will just pardon us! Gee, that we easy!
You would immigrate too | 1:21 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I would bet that most of people writing harsh statements here would immigrate
illegally also if they were born in Mexico and knew they could triple their pay
by traveling a few hundred miles north. These are the more ambitious workers of
Mexico.
I think that the only answer here is to come down very hard on the employers, but be very humane to the workers. These are just people looking for a good paycheck.
As long as the salary imbalance between countries exist, and employers are not punished for taking advantage of it, there will always be immigrants.
I think that the only answer here is to come down very hard on the employers, but be very humane to the workers. These are just people looking for a good paycheck.
As long as the salary imbalance between countries exist, and employers are not punished for taking advantage of it, there will always be immigrants.
Way to go! | 1:21 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Well said Anonymous 1:04.
Now THAT'S exercising one's free agency!
Now THAT'S exercising one's free agency!
EdwardE | 1:25 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To Anonymous......If hypocrisy keeps you from the Church then either your
testimony was very weak or you really aren't a member anyway. Good try.
Hman | 1:32 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
How much would an apple cost if there is nobody to pick it?
Would Jesus favor deportation or forgiveness?
Is this issue black and white or perhaps a bit gray?
Which is more importance, abiding by the 12th Article of Faith or offering compassion and Christlike acceptance and charity to those who are less fortunate? I wonder if Jesus and the ancient and modern prophets are up in heaven right now having this same debate?
Is there a difference between God's law and a nation's law? Do they always jive? Are some laws are unjust?
Were those who opposed slavery before the Emancipation Proclamation sinners because they didn't support the law of the land?
It's good to be Americans, but it's better to be Latter Day Saints. Fortunately, we can be both at the same time, all the while providing a good life for ourselves and our families, but not everyone enjoys that same opportunity, so let's show a little compassion to those who can't.
Would Jesus favor deportation or forgiveness?
Is this issue black and white or perhaps a bit gray?
Which is more importance, abiding by the 12th Article of Faith or offering compassion and Christlike acceptance and charity to those who are less fortunate? I wonder if Jesus and the ancient and modern prophets are up in heaven right now having this same debate?
Is there a difference between God's law and a nation's law? Do they always jive? Are some laws are unjust?
Were those who opposed slavery before the Emancipation Proclamation sinners because they didn't support the law of the land?
It's good to be Americans, but it's better to be Latter Day Saints. Fortunately, we can be both at the same time, all the while providing a good life for ourselves and our families, but not everyone enjoys that same opportunity, so let's show a little compassion to those who can't.
Re: Sagacious Inquisitor | 1:37 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You must have skipped church one Sunday in 2005 when the First Presidency issued
a letter to be read over all the pulpits that immigration status is irrelevant
to temple worthiness.
Go ahead ignore the Prophet and get yourself a lightning rod.
Elder Jensen, speaking at the request of the First Presidency, is not advocating open borders or ignoring laws. About 2/3 of SB 81 makes a lot of sense. The other 1/3 is plain uncompassionate and does nothing to solve immigration, but is just there to marginalize our illegal brothers and sisters.
Go ahead ignore the Prophet and get yourself a lightning rod.
Elder Jensen, speaking at the request of the First Presidency, is not advocating open borders or ignoring laws. About 2/3 of SB 81 makes a lot of sense. The other 1/3 is plain uncompassionate and does nothing to solve immigration, but is just there to marginalize our illegal brothers and sisters.
DLD | 1:42 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This issue with the LDS church and its support for illegal immigration almost
caused me to leave the church. It did require me to leave the state of Utah
where I could be somewhat removed from the Utah legislature and the way it is
manipulated each year by the church. Being far away helps keep the anger levels
down.
My family has strong views on this issue because my father and uncle spent a combined 40 years enforcing immigration law in California and Washington. All of my sisters were molested by illegal aliens from Mexico when they were young, but they escaped back before any charges could be filed.
During the time we lived in Utah, our home was robbed on three different occasions. The police found evidence that it was done by some of the illegal alien construction workers from down the street at the local Ivory site, but they failed to follow up.
If Utah wants to be the illegal alien mecca for the United States, be my guest. We are now safely far away, but don't be surprised by the increased crime levels.
My family has strong views on this issue because my father and uncle spent a combined 40 years enforcing immigration law in California and Washington. All of my sisters were molested by illegal aliens from Mexico when they were young, but they escaped back before any charges could be filed.
During the time we lived in Utah, our home was robbed on three different occasions. The police found evidence that it was done by some of the illegal alien construction workers from down the street at the local Ivory site, but they failed to follow up.
If Utah wants to be the illegal alien mecca for the United States, be my guest. We are now safely far away, but don't be surprised by the increased crime levels.
Paul | 1:41 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Many seem to be sooo compassionate when it costs them virtually nothing - when
it is other peoples' resources that are being committed. The "Tragedy
of the Commons" says that a raid of the common resources benefits the
raider greatly while costing everyone else just a little bit. In this case, the
raider can claim superiority for being compassionate while the cost of
education, lawlessness, medical care, etc is spread out over everyone, whether
they agree with the policy or not. Let those who want the in-state-tuition
reduction for illegals pay for it through a special state fund. Let those who
want to be compassionate and give out free health care for illegals pay for it
through a special state fund. Compassion means personal sacrifice not this
silly Robin Hood stuff where the money is taken from others to satisfy your
sense of self-righteousness. Put your resources where your mouths are, and then
let's see how many of you are so compassionate!
LDS married to Latina | 1:51 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Let President Monson speakk. All you LDS people who speak arrogant and political
statements are on the road to apostasy. Have compassion
Nelson Stone | 1:51 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I stand in wonder as to just how 'narrow' the Utah mind can be after
reading many of the comments above? Get out the whip and let's be done with
it. After all it is as black and white as any issue we have been faced with.
Church of Obeying the Law | 1:52 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm going to start a church where we worship obeying the laws of the land.
This is THE MOST important tenet of the new church. Anyone want to join me? By
my count, at least a hundred folks who have posted on this board.
to Paul | 1:21 p.m. Jesus did | 1:53 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The law said she should be stoned. Jesus made sure she was let go and not
stoned. If this wasn't a pardon what was it? (lets not play with words
here) At the very least Jesus didn't follow the law, he came up with his
own (better) solution, letting her go free.
Donna | 1:58 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
What a great opportunity for the constant critic and the apostate to "kill
the messenger," even when he is asking nothing more than "to measure
twice before cutting." Draw the sword and attack and you will feel better.
Linguist | 2:05 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Greater care should be used in many terms advocated by the author of the story.
For instance, anti-immigrate is not a correct term. The law does not affect
legal immigrants from obtaining in-state tuition status. The term that more
accurately should be used is anti-illegal immigrant. It might be an oversight
by the author, but caution should be used with an issue that causes such
conflagration. Incorrect terms can incite greater misunderstanding.
Re Paul | 1:21 p.m | 2:11 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
you said, "Jesus didn't pardon the woman caught in adultery".
Okay call it what you will, if not the word pardon then what word would you use? As Shakespear said, "a rose by any other name ..."
The fact remains, had he not interviened, the law of stoning her would have been carried out, because of his intervention it was not carried out.
Jesus was clearly demonstrating that compassion at times should be put ahead of the letter of the law. Jesus knew it, Jesus did it, But if it will make you happy, no Jesus didn't "pardon" her.
Okay call it what you will, if not the word pardon then what word would you use? As Shakespear said, "a rose by any other name ..."
The fact remains, had he not interviened, the law of stoning her would have been carried out, because of his intervention it was not carried out.
Jesus was clearly demonstrating that compassion at times should be put ahead of the letter of the law. Jesus knew it, Jesus did it, But if it will make you happy, no Jesus didn't "pardon" her.
to Church of Obeying 1:52 | 2:30 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You are going to join a church where they advocate obeying the law above all
else? Good So am I. You know this means we can't have a Christian church,
(Jesus did let the adulter go free you know). Lets do some research, maybe
Jewish, maybe Buddahist, maybe Hindu, Maybe Moslem, maybe well just start our
own from scratch. To He__ with compassion, lets throw the book at everyone.
To:Jesus was wrong? | 2:25 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Jesus also told the woman to "go forth and sin no more". Are you
willing to tell illegal immigrants to "go forth and become legal
immigrants"? Jesus wasn't wrong, you are.
Open Borders??? | 2:31 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Just a thought... I repeat just a thought. I am a HUGE conservative and member
of the active member of the LDS Church. In the Book of Mormon, The Lamanites and
the Nephites (enemies throughout most of the Book of Mormon) at one point in
time in their history had "Open Borders" (they traded freely etc right
before Savior's appearance), while most of the time they had fortifications
to protect against enemies and I am sure they had border protections etc. The
point is circumstances change and laws change. Again, I am not suggesting we go
the open border route anytime soon. What I am saying is we need to keep an open
mind and not get so wrapped up in the letter of the law. Justice and Mercy is
what we believe. Elder Jensen is simply stating to remember compassion. He NEVER
demanded to let the laws be broken!
Anonymous | 2:32 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I've had my issues with the LDS church before but today I applaud their
leadership in countering a vicious radical right-wing movement that was stolen
from the Nazis.
Church of Obeying the Law? | 2:45 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Then what is keeping you from obeying the LAWS OF HEAVEN? IF, you are so
adamant in obeying the law. Let's start with the Golden Rule... treat
others as you would want to be treated... or love one another.
One problem with this thread are too many anti's posing and falsely representing themselves to stir conflict. You're not fooling anyone... we know you are there and we know your true intent! Don't think for one second you're fooling anyone, especially the Savior.
One problem with this thread are too many anti's posing and falsely representing themselves to stir conflict. You're not fooling anyone... we know you are there and we know your true intent! Don't think for one second you're fooling anyone, especially the Savior.
wrz | 2:43 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
>
No! The whole statement is nothing but innuendo. And the innuendo is that illegals are free to flaunt the law... Not only the law of the land but the "law" of the church (i.e., to obey, honor, and sustain the law).
No! The whole statement is nothing but innuendo. And the innuendo is that illegals are free to flaunt the law... Not only the law of the land but the "law" of the church (i.e., to obey, honor, and sustain the law).
RE: DLD | 2:46 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I won't try to pretend to understand what your family has gone through.
However, are you prepared to punish every single illegal alien for the atrocious
criminal acts of a few?
Don't worry, judgement day comes to all.
Don't worry, judgement day comes to all.
LDS Stance? | 2:51 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
My daughter in law came here legally. My son and her spent months apart,
hundreds of dollars and many frustrating moments applying for and finally
receiving her legal admission into the U.S. Our country was founded upon the
principle of law, and law abiding immigrants have contributed to the greatness
of our country. Illegal aliens are not part of that legacy. An illegal
workforce ultimately does not bring economic stability and does not build a
strong and stable middle class which is the strength of our country. It does
augment the wealth of certain sectors of the economy. But at what cost? It
doesn't appear that the recipients of the benefits of illegal workers pay
for the incremental social and environmental costs of illegal aliens?
I don't know what "compassion" means in this debate. It would be helpful if the First Presidency would clearly state its position on this issue.
I don't know what "compassion" means in this debate. It would be helpful if the First Presidency would clearly state its position on this issue.
dave 4197 | 2:56 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Anything we can do to stop these spiteful laws is good. Good the church has got
involved. The church's goal is to teach all the people, they are doing
this by translating their scriptures into 170 or so languages, not by building
fences, not by making tuition expensive.
The church teaches tolerance. The legislature (and the anti immigration group) should turn over a new page.
The real problem with illegal immigrants is their poverty. Fences and expensive tuition laws will not change their poverty, nor will it stop their attempts to come into the US (and Utah) in search of jobs. In this day and age everyone with a brain understands that education is a key to getting out of poverty. There are other keys, too.
Let's fund education incentives for our poor. We will all benefit. We can afford to help.
We cannot afford to gin up the intolerance and inhumanity these anti-illegals have in them.
The church teaches tolerance. The legislature (and the anti immigration group) should turn over a new page.
The real problem with illegal immigrants is their poverty. Fences and expensive tuition laws will not change their poverty, nor will it stop their attempts to come into the US (and Utah) in search of jobs. In this day and age everyone with a brain understands that education is a key to getting out of poverty. There are other keys, too.
Let's fund education incentives for our poor. We will all benefit. We can afford to help.
We cannot afford to gin up the intolerance and inhumanity these anti-illegals have in them.
Paul | 2:53 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
In "The Four Gospels" by Ogden and Skinner on p412 "Clearly Jesus
was not condoning the sin, but neither was he condemning the woman" and
quoting Pres. Kimball from p165 of "Miracle of Forgiveness":
"There seems to be no evidence of forgiveness." Also in "Jesus
The Christ" by Talmage on page 406 in my edition :"Jesus did not
expressly condone; He declined to condem; but he sent the sinner away with a
solemn adjuration to a better life."
Did the Law require Jesus to stone the woman on the testimony of men who would not themselves cast the first stones? No! In fact, according to Talmage, "the accuers on whose testimony the death penalty was pronounced were to be the first to begin the work of execution." Lacking them, the execution was not to continue.
It is tempting to take such scriptures out of context in an attempt to bolster a weak position. A reading of the three references I mention should give a better picture of the correct interpretation and application.
Did the Law require Jesus to stone the woman on the testimony of men who would not themselves cast the first stones? No! In fact, according to Talmage, "the accuers on whose testimony the death penalty was pronounced were to be the first to begin the work of execution." Lacking them, the execution was not to continue.
It is tempting to take such scriptures out of context in an attempt to bolster a weak position. A reading of the three references I mention should give a better picture of the correct interpretation and application.
Agustin | 3:00 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm a legal inmigrant , I expended time and money to be legal here but
I'm sure the young students don't are responsable for the
Parent's act. Please give a oportunities to the the young people to have a
Education " The Glory of God is the Intelligent.."I support the Elder
Jensen statement...
wrz | 3:05 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
>
The apple would cost whatever it took to pick it. And using legal labor to pick it would cost about five cents more than using illegal labor. Also, it would help an American family instead of a foreign family here without authorization.
>
Jesus would favor obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. He said, "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Which means obey civil laws.
>
It's about keeping our nation sovereign. A nation without enforceable borders is not a nation.
>
The debate has already been enjoined by Jesus... (see his comment about Caesar above).
The apple would cost whatever it took to pick it. And using legal labor to pick it would cost about five cents more than using illegal labor. Also, it would help an American family instead of a foreign family here without authorization.
>
Jesus would favor obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. He said, "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Which means obey civil laws.
>
It's about keeping our nation sovereign. A nation without enforceable borders is not a nation.
>
The debate has already been enjoined by Jesus... (see his comment about Caesar above).
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Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret Morning News
University of Utah students Makiko Sato, left, Denise Castaneda and Carmela Willden show support at Capitol Thursday for law that allows children of undocumented parents to pay in-state tuition at state colleges and universities. A bill seeks to repeal the law.
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