Reader comments
Compassion call could affect immigration bills
215 comments | Read story
The rock | 8:58 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This is reverse position for the church in order to make good with latinos and
other migration groups. It was not until the early 80's that undocumented
people could be baptized into the church in this country. Nowadays converts are
turned off, partly because the welfare system does not address their social
status. Friends have gone to the catholic charities for immigration assistance.
Church leaders should be laying out programs so local leaders both in the law
and church circuits help the less fortunate.
Hard to believe | 9:05 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I can't believe that anyone would be dissuaded from passing appropriate
legislation to curb the problems stemming from illegal immigration. There's
nothing uncompassionate about it. Does compassion demand that we throw open the
gates and let anyone and everyone in the world take up residence in the U.S.?
Does compassion require that we overlook the chain of crimes necessary to
immigrate here illegally? If not, why favor just one group (mostly Mexican
nationals) over everyone else? What's compassionate about that?
Comments continue below
friend | 9:07 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The truth about illegal immigration is more frightining than you will ever know.
My family is from the Florida panhandle and my husband lost his job because of
illegal immigration. He was an Executive for a national mechanical contracting
company. He went over his bosses head to his superiors because of the illegal
immigration corruption (hiring and smuggling of illegals, making fake documents,
theft, drug trafficking, prostitution) running rampant thru the company. He is
a Christian and didn't want to be a part of the corruption. He told his
superiors in hopes that they would help him and his American employees.
The COO came to town bringing with him an attorny.
The attorney takes over my husbands office without his knowledge and brings the illegals in by the hundreds. (The American workforce was so excited thinking that finally something was going to be done). They offered the illegals somekind of legalization deal that most of them refused because they would have to do a background check. They then fired my husband and the other employees that had gone to them for help. They called it a REDUCTION OF FORCES no illegals were fired.
The COO came to town bringing with him an attorny.
The attorney takes over my husbands office without his knowledge and brings the illegals in by the hundreds. (The American workforce was so excited thinking that finally something was going to be done). They offered the illegals somekind of legalization deal that most of them refused because they would have to do a background check. They then fired my husband and the other employees that had gone to them for help. They called it a REDUCTION OF FORCES no illegals were fired.
Reason | 9:11 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To all you "Rule of Law" advocates out there, please reread, rewatch,
or relisten to Les Miserables. Also, please consider that the current law is
unenforceable. It was written with deliberate loopholes that allowed the
creation of our current situation--an economy that's dependent on a
workforce that cannot legally exist. Yes, the law needs to be changed, but that
doesn't mean we need to round up and kick out the workforce we've been
using for years. Change the law to avoid these problems in the future. Permit
legal ways of entering and working in the country.
As for the tax issues, how come it's never reported that these illegals actually _do_ pay taxes? Those that have real jobs (not day to day work) are most likely having taxes withheld from their wages just like everyone else. They are paying money into your social security.
As for the tax issues, how come it's never reported that these illegals actually _do_ pay taxes? Those that have real jobs (not day to day work) are most likely having taxes withheld from their wages just like everyone else. They are paying money into your social security.
Spanky | 9:16 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Here we go again. The legislature and the rich and powerful, who represent the
interests of the wealthy business owners and corporations, claim to be
compassionate when all they care about is a cheap labor force to keep their
costs down. Over and over again our elected representatives prove that
they're in the pocket of either big business or religion(which is the same
thing). How about a little compassion for the legal American citizens who pay
their taxes, abide by the law, and are trying to make a living and support their
families?
Terri | 9:17 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Giving in-state tuition to illegals who attended High School in Utah for at
least 3 years (therefore brought to this country as children at no fault of
their own, and sometimes as very young children, so we see that some of them
grew up here in Utah:
A. DOES NOT BREAK ANY LAWS
B. DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO GANG VIOLENCE
C. DOES NOT TAKE ANYONE ELSE'S $8.00 JOB AWAY FROM THEM
So what are you REALLY mad about? Think about it.
A. DOES NOT BREAK ANY LAWS
B. DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE TO GANG VIOLENCE
C. DOES NOT TAKE ANYONE ELSE'S $8.00 JOB AWAY FROM THEM
So what are you REALLY mad about? Think about it.
Reason | 9:13 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
By getting involved in what is really a political issue, the Church may be
endangering its tax exempt status. Cholera is now endemic in parts of this
country and infectious tuberculosis is on the rise. Why?--Illegal Immigration.
In a study published by Judge Michael Hutchings and a U of U sociologist, 80% of
drug dealers arrested in the 3rd Judicial District were--illegal aliens. In a
study published this year, illegal aliens are unlikely to have car
insurance--the one that ran into me didn't have it. Hospital emergency
rooms at night are full of illegal aliens who try to get free care. Most rapes
of teenagers are by illegal aliens who raise a cultural defense that in Mexico,
once a girl is 13 or 15, she is a "woman" and is fair game for a 30
year old. Who drives down wages for legitimate workers? You guessed it. The
list goes on and on but I'm limited to 200 words.
Amen | 9:19 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To both "Kevin in Texas" and "Altaholics" I say AMEN.
Frustrated | 9:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I must be an idiot. I emigrated to the U.S. from Canada several years ago. I was
dumb enough to stand in line for hours, pay the hefty fees, and jump through
every hoop of the INS (trust me.. there is a lot of jumping). I should have just
walked across the border and set up shop. But I was fearful that if I entered
the country illegally, I would be deported and never be able to return. However,
that doesn't appear to be the case. The INS really doesn't enforce the
law and I would have been fine. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. I want my money
back!!
But then I am LDS and I do believe in the 12th Article of Faith and the rule of law. And it disturbs me not a little that the LDS church would ask for anything but the rule of law. How do you compassionately deport someone? Include party mix on the bus ride out of the country??
But then I am LDS and I do believe in the 12th Article of Faith and the rule of law. And it disturbs me not a little that the LDS church would ask for anything but the rule of law. How do you compassionately deport someone? Include party mix on the bus ride out of the country??
Anonymous | 9:19 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The Church needs to practice the 12th Article of Faith fully IE United States
Immigration Law states" Anyone or group that entices or aids someone to
come to the United States ILLEGALLY or stay in the United States ILLEGALLY is
guilty of a crime." THis is very clear. Aid and assistance of any kind is
illegal. It is about time to stop the blind eye wink and knod to the law.
What is going on? | 9:25 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The churches in the valley are treading on a slippery slope if they want to get
into the illegal immigration issue. Emotions are very high and mostly opposed to
any more of it. Americans are sick of paying for illegals to get free health
care, education, and other benefits so that business owners can expolit them and
pass along the cost to us.
It's time for the churches to re-examine where their donations come from. Maybe we should all hold off on sending in any new donations until the churches get out of the amnesty business. We also ought to be asking how much of the money we donate goes to aiding and abetting lawbreaking. Any church that tackles this one had better be ready for the consequences, its a lose/lose situation for them. Good Luck.
It's time for the churches to re-examine where their donations come from. Maybe we should all hold off on sending in any new donations until the churches get out of the amnesty business. We also ought to be asking how much of the money we donate goes to aiding and abetting lawbreaking. Any church that tackles this one had better be ready for the consequences, its a lose/lose situation for them. Good Luck.
Anonymous | 9:30 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
"In a study published by Judge Michael Hutchings and a U of U sociologist,
80% of drug dealers arrested in the 3rd Judicial District were--illegal
aliens."
So you think that a Mexican crosses the border seeking honest employment and instead becomes a drug dealer? I'm sure that happens, as often as it happens with your own kids. A more likely scenario is that someone in Mexico decides to become a drug dealer, then enters the US in order to pursue his chosen profession. There's no wall high enough that can prevent the later scenario from happening.
So you think that a Mexican crosses the border seeking honest employment and instead becomes a drug dealer? I'm sure that happens, as often as it happens with your own kids. A more likely scenario is that someone in Mexico decides to become a drug dealer, then enters the US in order to pursue his chosen profession. There's no wall high enough that can prevent the later scenario from happening.
Anonymous | 9:38 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
"In a study published this year, illegal aliens are unlikely to have car
insurance--the one that ran into me didn't have it."
So he hit you, told you he was illegal, then took off???
So he hit you, told you he was illegal, then took off???
William | 9:34 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
OK, be compassionate but apply the law to illegals. For Pete's sake, how
obvious is this? If employers quit hiring illegals, they will leave. Plain and
simple.
Hatuletoh | 9:34 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Between Mr. Mitt Romney being treated like a second-class citizen within the
Republican party, the ongoing collapse of the so-called "Rovian
Doctrine", and now Elder Jensen's humanitarian position on immigrants,
I'll bet there's a few of you in Utah County and the contiguous
regions whose political worlds are in turmoil.
I apologize for gloating, but I hope you'll understand why an over-thinker like me feels a measure of happiness to know you're being forced to cope with ambiguity. Our republic is healthier when its citizens are perpetually examining and re-examining their beliefs, and it's seemed--especially in the past 8 years--that you all down there haven't been doing enough of that.
I apologize for gloating, but I hope you'll understand why an over-thinker like me feels a measure of happiness to know you're being forced to cope with ambiguity. Our republic is healthier when its citizens are perpetually examining and re-examining their beliefs, and it's seemed--especially in the past 8 years--that you all down there haven't been doing enough of that.
Doc4Bax | 9:46 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I am simply amazed at our blatant arrogance as I read these comments. Does
anyone reading this article actually understand how our economy works? Does
anyone actually understand how much of our great country is being taken over,
and controlled by China? We all buy cheap crap from China, but want to export
everyone from this country that wants to provide cheap labor. Do you understand
how much you pay for things when labor costs are reduced? Do we understand why
our companies are outsourcing. This country was founded, and flourished because
of immigration. Let's figure out how to get people here legally, protect
our borders, and show some compassion for a group of hard working people
Lee | 9:48 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
It appears that the church is getting desperate. In previous years, they could
simply call the speaker of the House privately to derail these bills. Now there
is enough public outcry they have to hold multiple press conferences in public
to try and accomplish the same thing.
It appears that the entire legislature has gotten the message that they must ACT, this year. No more studying, no more sending these bills to study groups.
It appears that the church policy is to support illegal aliens and their dishonest/unlawful ways in the name of compassion. I don't understand how this fits into the church teachings about being honest, supporting the law.
I don't believe it's Christian to establish a two-tiered gospel system and require a higher standard from one group because of their race or circumstances. It appears that this is the case for many of these illegals.
If you're a "lamanite" from a poor country, you can enjoy the same blessings as everyone else, but you don't have to live up to the same standards.
It appears that the entire legislature has gotten the message that they must ACT, this year. No more studying, no more sending these bills to study groups.
It appears that the church policy is to support illegal aliens and their dishonest/unlawful ways in the name of compassion. I don't understand how this fits into the church teachings about being honest, supporting the law.
I don't believe it's Christian to establish a two-tiered gospel system and require a higher standard from one group because of their race or circumstances. It appears that this is the case for many of these illegals.
If you're a "lamanite" from a poor country, you can enjoy the same blessings as everyone else, but you don't have to live up to the same standards.
Mc | 9:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
#1 The LDS Church hasn't asked anyone to disregard the rule of law.
Legislators MAKE the laws, which have to stay within the bounds of the
Constitution. There is nothing wrong with asking legislators to be
compassionate in making those laws.
#2 The LDS Church is not the only one asking this. Lots of churches signed on, so why pick on the LDS Church?
#3 Anyone who meets the residency requirements for in-state tuition should receive it. If we let them go to our high schools, we have helped them meet the residency requirement.
#4 Driving privilege cards make it possible for illegals to get insurance (they can't get it without a license or DPC). These cards also help in tracking down any who commit crimes in the community. They are a tool for law enforcement.
#5 Taking a political stand does not jeopardize a church's tax exempt status. They have as much right to do that as any individual. They can lose tax exempt status when they support a certain party or candidate, but there's no problem with taking a stand on issues.
#2 The LDS Church is not the only one asking this. Lots of churches signed on, so why pick on the LDS Church?
#3 Anyone who meets the residency requirements for in-state tuition should receive it. If we let them go to our high schools, we have helped them meet the residency requirement.
#4 Driving privilege cards make it possible for illegals to get insurance (they can't get it without a license or DPC). These cards also help in tracking down any who commit crimes in the community. They are a tool for law enforcement.
#5 Taking a political stand does not jeopardize a church's tax exempt status. They have as much right to do that as any individual. They can lose tax exempt status when they support a certain party or candidate, but there's no problem with taking a stand on issues.
wrz | 9:54 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Compassion? Alright, we've had some compassion. Now kick the bums out and
back to where they come from. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
Anonymous | 10:03 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm not LDS but for the first time in 25 years, I applaud the LDS
church's compassionate stand on a touchy issue that the radical right is
trying to take ownership of.
????????? | 9:58 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Isn't this a case of the church influencing it's members and in an
indirect way telling them how to vote? I thought the church didn't do
that.
What color is Utah | 10:09 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
We used to be the most red state in the union. Now we're sort of pink.
The church has been on the left before and I suppose they will again. McCain
should do very well here, even in SLC.
Anonymous | 10:09 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To TERI: I whole heartedly agree with you. By allowing instate tuition to
those who have graduated from a Utah High School we are not breaking any laws
and we are NOT subsidizing them. The 250 students that actually take advantage
of this are busting their butt to get through school, and usually with out
scholarships or grants or anything. That's nearyly $20K a year that they
are putting into the schools. Take away the instate break, that every Utah high
school graduate is entitled to, then you will have more uneducated people with
no incentive to gain their citizenship.
To: Distressed: do you seriously think that the illegals are really taking away "good" jobs from Americans? The jobs are out there, obviously the employers can not get "good americans" to take these jobs. Do you really think that the employers want to risk their business by hiring illegals? No, but they have NO ONE ELSE TO HIRE because most "AMERICANS" think they are above doing "that" type of work and would rather take handouts from the government then put in a good day's work.
To: Distressed: do you seriously think that the illegals are really taking away "good" jobs from Americans? The jobs are out there, obviously the employers can not get "good americans" to take these jobs. Do you really think that the employers want to risk their business by hiring illegals? No, but they have NO ONE ELSE TO HIRE because most "AMERICANS" think they are above doing "that" type of work and would rather take handouts from the government then put in a good day's work.
To Terri | 10:10 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Your right from the stand point that it isn't the kids fault, but it does
cost us more tax money to educate their kids and takes away from the time and
monetary resources for kids that are here legally!!!!
Compassion | 10:15 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The church should be worrying about compassion for some of the families who have
suffered murder and rape at the hand of illegals.
Wondering | 10:16 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I just wonder how many of these "illegal" aliens are members of the
LDS church? Has the church started disciplinary action against members who break
the law to enter this country illegally?
liberal means compassionate | 10:17 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Nothing wrong with being liberal What color is Utah.
Left is just another political word ilk like Rush Limbaugh has hijacked and demonized.
We are all liberal (compassionate) by nature.
Left is just another political word ilk like Rush Limbaugh has hijacked and demonized.
We are all liberal (compassionate) by nature.
GregM | 10:24 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Legal immigrants are welcome in this nation, and always have been. Illegal
immigrants are directly violating the law of the land, and the following points
of LDS scripture:
D&C 134
The Articles Of Faith
Elder Jensen's recent statement to the Utah Legislature of support on the subject of state provided benefits for illegal aliens is equivalent to providing aid and support to those violating the law of the land, and attempting to influence elected officials. I believe his is also in violation of the above quoted articles of church doctrine.
I'd ask that the First Presidency reconsider what I (and many law abiding citizens of this nation) would regard as a hypocritical and dangerous position. Further, I'd suggest that the advice Elder Jensen offered Utah's government officials would be equally beneficial for Church leaders. Take a step back, and consider the cost and consequences of their stated position.
Enforcing the law of the land does not deprive anyone of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. But supporting an illegal subculture with government provided resources creates an entire generation of slaves. Dependent on the government's graces for their lives, liberties, and happiness. It is plainly wrong.
D&C 134
The Articles Of Faith
Elder Jensen's recent statement to the Utah Legislature of support on the subject of state provided benefits for illegal aliens is equivalent to providing aid and support to those violating the law of the land, and attempting to influence elected officials. I believe his is also in violation of the above quoted articles of church doctrine.
I'd ask that the First Presidency reconsider what I (and many law abiding citizens of this nation) would regard as a hypocritical and dangerous position. Further, I'd suggest that the advice Elder Jensen offered Utah's government officials would be equally beneficial for Church leaders. Take a step back, and consider the cost and consequences of their stated position.
Enforcing the law of the land does not deprive anyone of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. But supporting an illegal subculture with government provided resources creates an entire generation of slaves. Dependent on the government's graces for their lives, liberties, and happiness. It is plainly wrong.
Political? | 10:30 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I know the Church walks a fine line from time to time on church and state, but I
don't think this is over the line. Elder Jensen did not say "vote
against SB###." If legislators think hard about their personal motivations
for the bill, and feel they are able to balance caring for the immigrant, caring
for the citizen, and encouraging all to uphold the law, either vote is
acceptable.
What the church is responding to is that for some (I didn't say all or even most) people, this is a thin veil for racism. That is a clear moral issue.
I think it's humorous that a lot of people are suddenly finding out that the Church is not as right-wing as they thought or wish it were. Look at newsroom.byu.edu; you'd be surprised at the number of stances they *don't* take.
And next time you're doing 85 on I-15 with your radar detector, think about yourself and the 12th Article of Faith.
What the church is responding to is that for some (I didn't say all or even most) people, this is a thin veil for racism. That is a clear moral issue.
I think it's humorous that a lot of people are suddenly finding out that the Church is not as right-wing as they thought or wish it were. Look at newsroom.byu.edu; you'd be surprised at the number of stances they *don't* take.
And next time you're doing 85 on I-15 with your radar detector, think about yourself and the 12th Article of Faith.
I don't want to live in Mexico | 10:27 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I too was hit by an illigal without insurance. I was compassionate then. I not
only was nice enouph to use my LDS learned mission spanish to translate for him
and the cop at the accident site, but also pay the $ 500 deductable to fix my
car. Oh, and go to court, lose a day at my job with its pay, miss my BYU
classes for the day, all for a trial that took place without the
"unfortunate" immigrant driving without a liscense and insurance, that
doesn't respect the law or his court appointed lawyer (paid for curtesy of
Utah tax payers)enouph to come to court. I am compassionate, but not an idiot.
There is a reason why Mexico is the way it is. The majority believe "the rule of law is for everyone else but me." Until legal residence stand up to be counted, we will continue down the path to economic and societal distruction.
There is a reason why Mexico is the way it is. The majority believe "the rule of law is for everyone else but me." Until legal residence stand up to be counted, we will continue down the path to economic and societal distruction.
Carl | 10:36 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The church is about doing what is right! While we should be compassionate,
there is a way to help people back to their own country and back into the proper
line to come back and that is what I would think they mean. What I love about
the church is that they preach self-reliance and honest dealing. The principles
of honesty would require that a person here illegally, and a member of the
church, should come to a personal conclusion that there is a disconnect.
However much we love these good people and want them to stay because they share
a religion, that in itsself is not compliant with the law that we sustain and
support. So, we work with them to go back home, get in line, do it the right
way and we will move over and let them become voting, tax-paying and productive
citizens. If they have small children here, we may have to dig out of our
Personal (not government)pockets to support them financially in their country so
the family can live until they are compliant. Compassion at its best!
Former LDS employee | 10:41 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I have personal knowledge of the LDS Church's firing employees who were
known to be illegal immigrants/undocumented workers, and of their refusing to
sponsor legal immigrants for naturalization and citizenship. In fact, at least
on of those people was in Marlin Jensen's own department!!!
True to the faith, the LDS Church is two-faced and disingenuous. It claims to "obey, honor and sustain the law" and at the same time, encourages people to break it.
Where is the compassion for the LEGAL immigrants and their families?
True to the faith, the LDS Church is two-faced and disingenuous. It claims to "obey, honor and sustain the law" and at the same time, encourages people to break it.
Where is the compassion for the LEGAL immigrants and their families?
Let's face it, folks | 10:42 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The LDS Church supports illegal immigration, in spite of their doctrine of
"obeying, honoring and sustaining the law".
The Church turned a blind eye to the problem for years, hoping that Congress would pass amnesty and solve it for them, instead of upholding the rule of law at the time. Now that amnesty is dead they are confronted by the possibility that many of their Latino members could be arrested or deported.
They can't come out and say they support amnesty, though. That would alienate their "core constituency", the American members who pay the bulk of the tithing and provide the bulk of the missionaries, and would probably result in a fair amount of negative publicity.
So instead they send out high-ranking Church leaders to harangue, browbeat, and guilt-trip the LDS members of the Legislature into killing any measure that would adversely affect their members who are here illegally.
Unfortunately, the smug, condescending attitude displayed by Elder Jensen has made the problem much worse. His complete refusal to even acknowledge the real social problems created by illegal immigration leads many to correctly perceive that he's just a shill for the other side.
The Church turned a blind eye to the problem for years, hoping that Congress would pass amnesty and solve it for them, instead of upholding the rule of law at the time. Now that amnesty is dead they are confronted by the possibility that many of their Latino members could be arrested or deported.
They can't come out and say they support amnesty, though. That would alienate their "core constituency", the American members who pay the bulk of the tithing and provide the bulk of the missionaries, and would probably result in a fair amount of negative publicity.
So instead they send out high-ranking Church leaders to harangue, browbeat, and guilt-trip the LDS members of the Legislature into killing any measure that would adversely affect their members who are here illegally.
Unfortunately, the smug, condescending attitude displayed by Elder Jensen has made the problem much worse. His complete refusal to even acknowledge the real social problems created by illegal immigration leads many to correctly perceive that he's just a shill for the other side.
MercyCanRobJustice? | 10:50 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Compassion cannot rob justice. Upholding the law must come first or we cannot
provide mercy. When someone calls for compassion on illegals (which we all want
to give) they must not make the omission of failing to advocate legal
immigration and obedience to the law. Compassion on its own only serves to cut a
few more of the threads that hold up the Constitution.
Former INS Officer | 10:45 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
President Marion G. Romney said that Latter-day Saints need to be willing to
live the laws of the government in which they live. Those that
�keepeth the laws of God hath no need to beak the laws of
the land.� As a former law enforcement officer, I had the
unique opportunity to observe that breaking the laws of the land usually also
involves breaking God�s laws. It seems especially hard to
be honest when breaking the law.
Sagacious Inquisitor | 10:46 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Compliance and Compassion are compatible.
Surely Elder Jensen wasn�t advocating open borders nor free ride into America, or in Utah, for illegal invaders. His �humane approach� didn�t call for anarchy. His �measure twice before cutting� comment might ensure that only illegals are prohibited entry, or deported. He didn�t recommend blind compassion. Special favors for law-breakers wouldn�t conform with LDS Church practices.
Any illegal LDS Temple invader would be removed. One, undocumented, attempting entrance would be turned away. Regardless of legal residency, that invader would properly be judged upon obedience to LDS Temple Recommend law.
LDS Temples welcome everyone . . . if they abide governing laws and enter properly. Everyone entering the US needs an entry document. The LDS Church wouldn�t ask that any Government let unthinking compassion override rule of law. The Church doesn�t do so at Temples and couldn�t advocate such �compassion� for immigration.
There�s no flexibility in Immigration Law. The Church doesn�t ask blind compassion for drug dealers, or speeders. The Church offers no blind compassion regarding Tithing or morality.
Elders Jensen and Ballard would affirm the guiding principle as that of law. Without honoring law there can�t be compassion.
Compliance, or exclusion, can produce honest compassion.
Surely Elder Jensen wasn�t advocating open borders nor free ride into America, or in Utah, for illegal invaders. His �humane approach� didn�t call for anarchy. His �measure twice before cutting� comment might ensure that only illegals are prohibited entry, or deported. He didn�t recommend blind compassion. Special favors for law-breakers wouldn�t conform with LDS Church practices.
Any illegal LDS Temple invader would be removed. One, undocumented, attempting entrance would be turned away. Regardless of legal residency, that invader would properly be judged upon obedience to LDS Temple Recommend law.
LDS Temples welcome everyone . . . if they abide governing laws and enter properly. Everyone entering the US needs an entry document. The LDS Church wouldn�t ask that any Government let unthinking compassion override rule of law. The Church doesn�t do so at Temples and couldn�t advocate such �compassion� for immigration.
There�s no flexibility in Immigration Law. The Church doesn�t ask blind compassion for drug dealers, or speeders. The Church offers no blind compassion regarding Tithing or morality.
Elders Jensen and Ballard would affirm the guiding principle as that of law. Without honoring law there can�t be compassion.
Compliance, or exclusion, can produce honest compassion.
To: prosecutor | 10:49 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To: Prosecutor (part I)
Muchos hablan de compasion, misericordia para con los hispanos. Pero yo pienso que despues de haber robado las tierras y matado a millones de indios americanos (mas de 12.000.000), de quien muchos de estos inmigrantes indocumentados son descendientes, no deberiamos hablar de compasion, deberiamos hablar de justicia. De devolver un poco de todo lo que se los despojo.
Por otro lado dicen que roban los empleos de los de este pais, e irrisoriamente son sus mismos compatriotas los que le sacan empleo, ya que sin importar el patriotismo pagan salarios muy bajos a trabajadores indocumentados y los dejan a ustedes sin que les importe nada. Y esto, claro esta, son los pequenos o medianos comerciantes, porque las grandes empresas despues de nacer y crecer dentro de EEUU se van a paises en vias de desarrollo como mejico, india o envian a hacer las cosas a china.
Pero claro, usted y muchos como usted insisten en que es culpa de los inmigrantes indocumentados.
See To: Prosecutor (part II) for more
Muchos hablan de compasion, misericordia para con los hispanos. Pero yo pienso que despues de haber robado las tierras y matado a millones de indios americanos (mas de 12.000.000), de quien muchos de estos inmigrantes indocumentados son descendientes, no deberiamos hablar de compasion, deberiamos hablar de justicia. De devolver un poco de todo lo que se los despojo.
Por otro lado dicen que roban los empleos de los de este pais, e irrisoriamente son sus mismos compatriotas los que le sacan empleo, ya que sin importar el patriotismo pagan salarios muy bajos a trabajadores indocumentados y los dejan a ustedes sin que les importe nada. Y esto, claro esta, son los pequenos o medianos comerciantes, porque las grandes empresas despues de nacer y crecer dentro de EEUU se van a paises en vias de desarrollo como mejico, india o envian a hacer las cosas a china.
Pero claro, usted y muchos como usted insisten en que es culpa de los inmigrantes indocumentados.
See To: Prosecutor (part II) for more
Perpetual Removal Fund | 10:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Several readers expressed concern about reconciling the call for being
compassionate, and the financial cost of illegal immigration on public schools,
the health care system, and social services. One compassionate alternative for
financially helping those individuals that have to return -voluntarily or
otherwise- to their native countries after being illegally in the United States,
could be by establishing a �Perpetual Deportation
Fund,� managed by the LDS Church and funded by its
members� fast offering.
P.S. I am a former Utah resident of 10 years and a University of Utah graduate. My son will also like to attend the U, but we may not be able to afford his �out of state� tuition. Can the State Legislature do something for us?
P.S. I am a former Utah resident of 10 years and a University of Utah graduate. My son will also like to attend the U, but we may not be able to afford his �out of state� tuition. Can the State Legislature do something for us?
What? | 10:59 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Is the church going to lower the amount for tithing to help offset the burdens
illegal immigration puts on our health care, justice system, public schools and
taxes? I don't understand why the church feels the need to get involved
with this.
Former LDS employee | 10:59 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
My comment didn't make it on here for some reason, even though it was
respectful, but true.
Let me frame it in the form of three questions:
1. Does the LDS Church hire illegal/undocumented workers?
2. Does the LDS Church admit to firing undocumented workers who are discovered not to have a legal right to work in the United States?
3. Does the LDS Church admit to not sponsoring (and in many cases, not hiring) LEGAL immigrants who are not yet permanent residents, but who otherwise have a right to work in this country?
Something's rotten in the state of Utah, and in the LDS church.
Seeing the church for what it is (duplicitous, mendacious, wrong-headed) was very instrumental in my leaving the church.
Let me frame it in the form of three questions:
1. Does the LDS Church hire illegal/undocumented workers?
2. Does the LDS Church admit to firing undocumented workers who are discovered not to have a legal right to work in the United States?
3. Does the LDS Church admit to not sponsoring (and in many cases, not hiring) LEGAL immigrants who are not yet permanent residents, but who otherwise have a right to work in this country?
Something's rotten in the state of Utah, and in the LDS church.
Seeing the church for what it is (duplicitous, mendacious, wrong-headed) was very instrumental in my leaving the church.
Poncho | 11:05 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This is absolutely crazy...someone basically says "take a deep breath"
or "think twice" before making a major legislative decision and all of
sudden you have THE WHOLE LDS CHURCH supposedly taking a stance on illegal
immigration? WOW! Can you find a direct position in Jensen's
talk�anywhere? I guess �be
compassionate" is the code word for �let em all
in!� You should read through these posts and see how they
take a life of their own. For a country made 100% from immigrants...we sure are
pretty judgmental. The REAL question is�should those born
here (who by law are citizens) who have undocumented parents be allowed to use
state funding for education? Difficult question�
12th Article of Faith | 11:07 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
If your son were killed in an automobile accident by an undocumented illegal
immigrant from Mexico who was drunk behind the wheel, would you demand justice,
or would you find forgiveness and compassion? It didn't happen to me, but
it did happen to a good friend, and he rose above his demands for justice. Can
we do less?
John | 11:12 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The Church asks its members to ALWAYS adhere to the rule of the law. This
recent statement nullifies this in my view.
Spanky | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To Anonymous 10:09.
Your argument that employers have no one else to hire, or that American workers won't take those types of jobs that are available is totally bogus. You're just reiterating what you've heard from wealthy business owners and corporations who don't want to pay workers a living wage. American workers are some of the most productive workers in the world. Why pay a decent wage when they have a huge market of illegals who will do the job for slave wages with no benefits? It puts more money in their pocket, pays for their 2 suvs, their 3000 square foot home, their vacations, the huge salaries and bonuses that CEOs receive. It's all about greed, having a huge cheap labor force......and it's also about the fact that these people are breaking the law, are here illegally taking jobs from legal Americans, and should be prosecuted and sent back to where they belong.
Your argument that employers have no one else to hire, or that American workers won't take those types of jobs that are available is totally bogus. You're just reiterating what you've heard from wealthy business owners and corporations who don't want to pay workers a living wage. American workers are some of the most productive workers in the world. Why pay a decent wage when they have a huge market of illegals who will do the job for slave wages with no benefits? It puts more money in their pocket, pays for their 2 suvs, their 3000 square foot home, their vacations, the huge salaries and bonuses that CEOs receive. It's all about greed, having a huge cheap labor force......and it's also about the fact that these people are breaking the law, are here illegally taking jobs from legal Americans, and should be prosecuted and sent back to where they belong.
Attn: GregM | 11:21 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You said "Legal immigrants are welcome in this nation, and always have
been. Illegal immigrants are directly violating the law of the land"
The only problem is that people who defined "illegal" immigration were themselves invaders, who killed the people who had the land before they got here.
Squanto was a traitor to his people, but he was first and foremost a human being, who took pity on the wetbacks from Europe.
The only problem is that people who defined "illegal" immigration were themselves invaders, who killed the people who had the land before they got here.
Squanto was a traitor to his people, but he was first and foremost a human being, who took pity on the wetbacks from Europe.
Me | 11:24 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Article of Faith 12 States. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents,
rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
The last part about sustaining the law is glaring. The term "Illegal" indicates that the person is breaking the law by being here without permission.
The last part about sustaining the law is glaring. The term "Illegal" indicates that the person is breaking the law by being here without permission.
Sunny Alberta | 11:25 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I know of some white Canadains that have been told to get back to Canada when they over stayed their Visa and that is the way it should be. Amen and Amen
Please Deborah, please... | 11:35 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Doesn't Deborah Bulkeley know anyone else at all within the Latino
community besides Tony Yapias? My gosh, he is not well regarded within the
Hispanic/Latino community, barely regarded by the community at large but loved
by Ms. Bulkeley who, after various years on the ethnic beat, hasn't seemed
to find anyone else to quote.
Not only is this man a consumate sel-promoter, he's not even Mexican trying to represent all of the Mexicans. He's Mormon when it's to his advantage, and parties up a storm when that works for him. He's a Democrat one moment but after they booted him for doing nothing, he says he's not, but then again he is because the Republicans don't want him. Come on Deborah, find some voices of people with credibility, please.
Not only is this man a consumate sel-promoter, he's not even Mexican trying to represent all of the Mexicans. He's Mormon when it's to his advantage, and parties up a storm when that works for him. He's a Democrat one moment but after they booted him for doing nothing, he says he's not, but then again he is because the Republicans don't want him. Come on Deborah, find some voices of people with credibility, please.
David | 11:42 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I think we should deport all those who have ever sped in their cars, jaywalked,
and who own any music files not purchased from an authorized vendor. We must
respect the rule of law.
Or maybe we should show compassion by realizing that those who download unpaid-for-music are simply trying to save money that they can use to provide for their families.
Then, while were at it, we can simply make illegal aliens legal, and then they won't be breaking any law and won't be "illegal" and we'll all be happy. Those who would still be anti-immigration could then be identified for what they really are, "zenophobes."
And, by the way, you could let in those who have patiently waited for citizenship/visas too so that no one could say they were being punished.
Let's get real here. We have border laws to keep order, not because it is morally wrong to cross some randomly drawn line. Are the current laws keeping order? No, so we change the laws to create order, which means making it much easier to get in legally (guest workers, etc.) and harder to get in illegally (build a wall if you please).
Or maybe we should show compassion by realizing that those who download unpaid-for-music are simply trying to save money that they can use to provide for their families.
Then, while were at it, we can simply make illegal aliens legal, and then they won't be breaking any law and won't be "illegal" and we'll all be happy. Those who would still be anti-immigration could then be identified for what they really are, "zenophobes."
And, by the way, you could let in those who have patiently waited for citizenship/visas too so that no one could say they were being punished.
Let's get real here. We have border laws to keep order, not because it is morally wrong to cross some randomly drawn line. Are the current laws keeping order? No, so we change the laws to create order, which means making it much easier to get in legally (guest workers, etc.) and harder to get in illegally (build a wall if you please).
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret Morning News
University of Utah students Makiko Sato, left, Denise Castaneda and Carmela Willden show support at Capitol Thursday for law that allows children of undocumented parents to pay in-state tuition at state colleges and universities. A bill seeks to repeal the law.
Related content
- Holladay development appeal denied 2:59 p.m.
- BYU bug to aid in soil clean up 2:50 p.m.
- Provo council members say goodbye 2:49 p.m.
- Rancher run over by tractor, injured 2:45 p.m.
- Stronger retail boost stocks 2:44 p.m.
- Snow hampers missing mom search 2:24 p.m.
- Gun laws becoming more loose 2:16 p.m.
- Drug combo improves cancer survival 2:13 p.m.
- Cable falls on I-80; lanes reopened 2:11 p.m.
- SEC widens BofA, Merrill probe 1:48 p.m.
- Letters: Global warming a lie
266 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl207
- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall194
- Palin signs books, chats with fans169
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil151
- Cougars going back to Vegas150
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax142
- Nude bathers cited for lewdness132
- Max Hall wants to look ahead130
- Jazz fall apart late at L.A.110
David Rankin, one of Utah's youngest and ablest astrophotographers has...
There was a time when free shipping was rare. This holiday season, you...
Love him or hate him, Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch knows how to get attention.
Latest comments
Brea Has four children not five. if your going to write about that get all...
Ouch! Releases carbon dioxide!! Say it ain't so! BYU is contributing to...
Nice post there Rob, " Horrible company, hardly gets any receptio anywhere"...
Keep up the good work Brother Boye.
Is good but certainly not the greatest. Jordan would work Kobe if he...
The LDS church consists of a range of opinions. Such has been true for...
Went camping at 12 midnight with 2 tiny kids in sub-freezing...
The VPC will give you their "facts", which are true, but leave out ALL of the...
Why not debate whatever crazy conspiracy theory anyone can think of INSTEAD...
This is mind numbing.
Advertisements
Are the resulting increased taxes and burden levied on Utah tax payers intended to subsidize a foreign economy and therefore country? It is time �they� build �their own� countries and communities. It is time they �give� to �their� communities and �their� own citizens. It is time for Utah to wake up!!!!
To the church and government, Brighams Young�s �this is the right place,� is very quickly becoming anything but. This is not a racist view, but an economical one and one from the stand point of being a safe place to raise our families.