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Have compassion for immigrants, lawmakers urged
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Have a Heart (in AZ) II | 9:27 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Another thing: I know and recognize that some illegals do commit aggravated
misdemeanors and felonies--from ID theft and drug dealing to rape and murder.
THEY should be dealt with according to the law. Deport THEM--straight to a
Mexican prison, and throw away the key. Compassion doesn't, and can't,
excuse those crimes. No argument here!
Most illegals, however, are just here to try to feed their families. Fine them if you must--and require their employers to help them pay the majority of the cost--for the "crime" of crossing the border without legal permission. But don't treat ALL of them as if they were hard-core criminals and terrorists. That's not true, and it speaks ill of LDS members that some would do so. (I hope fanatical AZ State Rep. Russell Pearce, who will never have my vote in this life, somehow gets this message.)
Compassion doesn't mean OVERLOOKING the law. It just means you recognize that there are greater moral principles than legal statutes and higher authorities than political bodies and their leaders. You don't paint everybody with the same brush and you remember to be kind and charitable. Especially if that's what your church actually teaches!
Most illegals, however, are just here to try to feed their families. Fine them if you must--and require their employers to help them pay the majority of the cost--for the "crime" of crossing the border without legal permission. But don't treat ALL of them as if they were hard-core criminals and terrorists. That's not true, and it speaks ill of LDS members that some would do so. (I hope fanatical AZ State Rep. Russell Pearce, who will never have my vote in this life, somehow gets this message.)
Compassion doesn't mean OVERLOOKING the law. It just means you recognize that there are greater moral principles than legal statutes and higher authorities than political bodies and their leaders. You don't paint everybody with the same brush and you remember to be kind and charitable. Especially if that's what your church actually teaches!
John Lambert | 9:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
People should stop using the rhetoric of legal immigration and speaking
English. The immigration laws in the 1880s allowed anyone who showed up to come
in. Yet how many people have ancestors who stowed away on ships.
We used to have a member of our high coucil who had both his parents come over from Italy as stowaways. Should we not have baptized him and instead insisted that he go back to Italy.
I am not sure that Elder Jesnen's immigrant ancestors learned English. For years the public schools in St. Louis and Cincinnatti were giving instruction in German. The Swedish in Utah actively advocated for holding church meetings in their native language. Polish papers were pubished in many places in the United States. At one point Germans advocated for getting German made an official language in the United States, and how legal were my Mayflower ancestors, settling without even asking the previous residents permission and totally imposing their own laws on the system that was there before?
We used to have a member of our high coucil who had both his parents come over from Italy as stowaways. Should we not have baptized him and instead insisted that he go back to Italy.
I am not sure that Elder Jesnen's immigrant ancestors learned English. For years the public schools in St. Louis and Cincinnatti were giving instruction in German. The Swedish in Utah actively advocated for holding church meetings in their native language. Polish papers were pubished in many places in the United States. At one point Germans advocated for getting German made an official language in the United States, and how legal were my Mayflower ancestors, settling without even asking the previous residents permission and totally imposing their own laws on the system that was there before?
Comments continue below
RE:John Lambert | 9:47 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
For you information most of our ancestors were English! I am tired of reading
your rhetoric. You are a racist and a bigot!
To John Lambert | 10:04 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm a bit familiar with what you're talking about. The Germans came
here and settled a large swath of the countryside and had their own schools
where everything was taught in German. They were advocating a New Germany here.
The idea never caught hold and today all that is left is the german names on
things. My grandmother spoke only german until she graduated from high school.
Wish those advocating their own micro-climate would see how foolish that works
out over the years.
It's OK to immigrate but for the right reasons. When you do, adopt you new homeland or pay the consequences that come with not doing that.
It's OK to immigrate but for the right reasons. When you do, adopt you new homeland or pay the consequences that come with not doing that.
Confusing? | 10:16 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I am wondering which laws can we as members of the LDS church break and still
obtain a temple recommend? What happened to the the law of the land?#
# 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
However, that is old doctrine by Joseph Smith.
Many of his teaching are questionable.
# 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
However, that is old doctrine by Joseph Smith.
Many of his teaching are questionable.
To 1:58 p.m. poster Feb 14 | 10:12 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Can you please cite your source for Mexico refusing to sell land to the U.S.?
(Google isn't helping me here.) According to the Treaty of
Guadalupe-Hidalgo, the U.S. insisted on the Mexican territory where many of the
Western states now sit *as a condition of the treaty.* They also gave $15M to
Mexico for war reparations. Texas voted to join the U.S. several years after
declaring its independence from Mexico, so it wasn't part of the deal.
Are you referring to negotiations prior to the war? Or are you confusing this with *Napoleon's* refusal to sell the Western Territory while *he* had control of the land? There didn't seem to be much room for offers one way or the other after the U.S. forces marched into Mexico and took possession of Mexico City and several other cities and territories during the war itself. (A bit of historical detail that might interest some of you borders-are-sacred people...) And Mexico *did* sell land in the Gadsden Purchase--*after the war.*
Could you please enlighten me? THANKS!
Are you referring to negotiations prior to the war? Or are you confusing this with *Napoleon's* refusal to sell the Western Territory while *he* had control of the land? There didn't seem to be much room for offers one way or the other after the U.S. forces marched into Mexico and took possession of Mexico City and several other cities and territories during the war itself. (A bit of historical detail that might interest some of you borders-are-sacred people...) And Mexico *did* sell land in the Gadsden Purchase--*after the war.*
Could you please enlighten me? THANKS!
John Lambert | 10:23 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
A few comments.
First off, I want to say that I think Joseph F. Smith was an upright and moral man for acknowledging his wives and do not fault him. However, everytime he did so he broke the law.
Second, I do not support polygamy.
Third, there is a much higher crime rate in Detroit than anywhere in Utah but we have many fewer undocumented immigrants.
Fourth, I once was assulted by a legal immigrant but I do not go around claiming they are all criminals.
Fifth, the Roman Empire's downfall is that it mistreated its immigrants, not that it had them. The Goths only rebelled because they were so mistreated by the Romans.
Sixth, it was the Romanized Germans and not the truly other Huns that destroyed the Roman Empire.
Seventh, remeber Mexico is the number one source of legal immigration.
Eighth, many immigrants just overstay their visas, so they never snuck anywhere. Do not make blanket assumptions.
Ninth, why don't we just make labor another commodity that moves under NAFTA. We destroy Mexico's agricultural industry with our cheap imports and then complain when the people move across the border to get jobs.
First off, I want to say that I think Joseph F. Smith was an upright and moral man for acknowledging his wives and do not fault him. However, everytime he did so he broke the law.
Second, I do not support polygamy.
Third, there is a much higher crime rate in Detroit than anywhere in Utah but we have many fewer undocumented immigrants.
Fourth, I once was assulted by a legal immigrant but I do not go around claiming they are all criminals.
Fifth, the Roman Empire's downfall is that it mistreated its immigrants, not that it had them. The Goths only rebelled because they were so mistreated by the Romans.
Sixth, it was the Romanized Germans and not the truly other Huns that destroyed the Roman Empire.
Seventh, remeber Mexico is the number one source of legal immigration.
Eighth, many immigrants just overstay their visas, so they never snuck anywhere. Do not make blanket assumptions.
Ninth, why don't we just make labor another commodity that moves under NAFTA. We destroy Mexico's agricultural industry with our cheap imports and then complain when the people move across the border to get jobs.
SB | 11:18 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
It is convenient for many of those posting here to find a scapegoat in the
"illegals" here for their insurance rates, job status, crime rates,
identity theft and so forth. Please don't be so shortsighted as to not
consider the multitude of layers in each of these complex social issues. A
sound-bite from a politician or a media source doesn't mean it encapsulates
the entire truth. For example, you might be surprised to know that the taxes
paid by illegal immigrants for sale of goods (groceries, gasoline, clothing),
rent (which are built into property taxes), utilities, etc. and for their
employers who must pay income taxes, medicare, social security for their workers
provide billions of dollars to this country. Most federal aid programs
(contrary to many statements here) are unavailable to undocumented persons. Or,
for a simple example - studies show that part of the increase in crime rates can
be traced to families not sitting down to dinner together. My point is that to
simply point the finger at undocumented persons is to just find the easiest
scapegoat to kick without exploring the whole picture.
Anonymous | 11:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
ahhh ahhha! To church members. We are here to stay for those of you who
don't want us here.Ahhhhaaaaaa!
The costs of immigrants | 11:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
23-25% of the total us prison population is made up of illegal immigrants. Each
of the 500,000-550,000 illegal aliens are costing tax payers over $30,000 each
year then add the cost to hospitals in health care that they don't pay for.
valery | 11:55 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
You SB,
You are way out of line. You need to go research everything a bit better.
I think it is time to send all VIKINGS home too!
You are way out of line. You need to go research everything a bit better.
I think it is time to send all VIKINGS home too!
SB | 2:47 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Valery,
I will send you some national studies, if you would like. I actually made my comments after having done research, not on relying on the media or my next door neighbor to be an expert. Every thing I said above is subject of research by private or public organizations reasearch and study. That said, I recognize that there will always be conflicting conclusions or results, depending on the specific focus of the research. It happens in every kind of field of study. What I advocated, and still do, is that before you blame all social problems on one thing (in this case illegal immigrants) ...make sure that you are getting all the pieces to the puzzle, so that you can act reasonably and take action based on reality and not on some whim of opinion.
I will send you some national studies, if you would like. I actually made my comments after having done research, not on relying on the media or my next door neighbor to be an expert. Every thing I said above is subject of research by private or public organizations reasearch and study. That said, I recognize that there will always be conflicting conclusions or results, depending on the specific focus of the research. It happens in every kind of field of study. What I advocated, and still do, is that before you blame all social problems on one thing (in this case illegal immigrants) ...make sure that you are getting all the pieces to the puzzle, so that you can act reasonably and take action based on reality and not on some whim of opinion.
Decency | 4:15 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
SB, thank you for the valid points. I agree with you whole heartedly!
Valery, what planet did you come from?
The more I think about this, and the more I read these comments, the less validity the anti-illegal immigrants have. They are just sounding like a bunch of childish selfish racist hate mongers. Those siding on compassion make much more sense and have a much stronger argument. Love and compassion will always beat out hate, selfishness, greed, and MAN made laws that are flawed and need to be fixed to account for human decency.
My hope is that we have decent, intelligent and compassionate representatives that will listen to their conscience to do what is decent, moral and FAIR to help these people in need. And not listen to those who hate and only think of themselves and act like children.
Valery, what planet did you come from?
The more I think about this, and the more I read these comments, the less validity the anti-illegal immigrants have. They are just sounding like a bunch of childish selfish racist hate mongers. Those siding on compassion make much more sense and have a much stronger argument. Love and compassion will always beat out hate, selfishness, greed, and MAN made laws that are flawed and need to be fixed to account for human decency.
My hope is that we have decent, intelligent and compassionate representatives that will listen to their conscience to do what is decent, moral and FAIR to help these people in need. And not listen to those who hate and only think of themselves and act like children.
RE: SB | 4:22 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
SB, sounds like you're the one with your head on straight. Curious--People
who actually take the time to learn about the issue from *factual* sources
instead of listening to the
they're-conquering-our-culture/deport-all-13-million/make-'em-speak-English-or-else
hysteria almost have no place in this debate. It's about who can shout the
loudest and create the most fear. Not facts. Not reason. Not humanity. And
certainly not compassion.
I wonder if this was what it was like in pre-Nazi Germany? The rhetoric sounds WAY too much like it for my comfort! Have some human decency, people.
I wonder if this was what it was like in pre-Nazi Germany? The rhetoric sounds WAY too much like it for my comfort! Have some human decency, people.
Laughing | 5:22 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Looks like some cages have been rocked and rattled on here. I don't care
for BS from SB. And Decency! you have none. I'm totally amazed at how
suddenly these blogs have been taken over by illegals...GOOD GRIEF!
RE: Laughing | 6:18 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008
What--being compassionate is suddenly now being taken over by illegals? Quite a
leap of logic, though I'd expect little less from any group of people who
think it's a wise use of taxpayer money to try to round up and deport 13
million human beings, 90% of whom will be back within the month. Whatever.
That makes whatever we're doing in Iraq look like clockwork by comparison!
Trying decency and compassion for a change seems perfectly rational to me.
dp | 12:24 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Millions of Mexicans illegally living in the US and people really think they all
should go "home?" Do you really think that none of them were prompted
by the Spirit to leave Mexico. You really believe that? How could that
possibly be true! Have you ever met any illegals - have you asked them about
the divine inspiration they felt to move here and make a better life for
generations to come.
God inspired my ancestors to leave England and move to Mexico (now Utah) - why wouldn't he inspire Mexicans today to move to the US? Let them stay - secure the border - really secure it - think DMZ -but let them stay. Mercy is needed here, not justice.
God inspired my ancestors to leave England and move to Mexico (now Utah) - why wouldn't he inspire Mexicans today to move to the US? Let them stay - secure the border - really secure it - think DMZ -but let them stay. Mercy is needed here, not justice.
An American Citizen | 12:43 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
i support an inmigration Reform ..
Justin | 8:17 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
To dp,
No, I absolutely DO NOT think that a single illegal immigrant was prompted or inspired by the spirit to enter this country illegally. The spirit of God is the spirit of righteousness and goodness, NOT the spirit of violating the law.
Just because your ancestors were "inspired" to leave
England hundreds of years ago, doesn't mean we should accept anyone who claims to be "inspired" to come to our country. Imagine how "inspired" many Islamic Fundamentalists could be, coming in here with who knows what strapped to their inspired bodies!?
We live in a VERY different world than your ancestors did. We cannot afford to give the "mercy" you claim to want for illegals without robbing from those who are legal citizens and who followed the laws entering the country.
I liked Mitt Romney's nuanced solutions to this problem. He was right - being here illegally should NEVER give a person an advantage over those who are trying to follow the law in gaining citizenship.
No, I absolutely DO NOT think that a single illegal immigrant was prompted or inspired by the spirit to enter this country illegally. The spirit of God is the spirit of righteousness and goodness, NOT the spirit of violating the law.
Just because your ancestors were "inspired" to leave
England hundreds of years ago, doesn't mean we should accept anyone who claims to be "inspired" to come to our country. Imagine how "inspired" many Islamic Fundamentalists could be, coming in here with who knows what strapped to their inspired bodies!?
We live in a VERY different world than your ancestors did. We cannot afford to give the "mercy" you claim to want for illegals without robbing from those who are legal citizens and who followed the laws entering the country.
I liked Mitt Romney's nuanced solutions to this problem. He was right - being here illegally should NEVER give a person an advantage over those who are trying to follow the law in gaining citizenship.
barryrichfield | 9:29 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I see the arguements , there here so let them stay. Have compassion. Most are
from Mexico as if that justifies then being excused. Or that you will break up
their families, That the Immigration system needs fixing. It is unfair. That
God loves all his children , therefore have mercy on those here, it isn't
any of their fault? WE are being unfair to them. If you don't have
compassion for them, then you have no compassion!
Much of this is shear nonsence.
1. The Law allows a greater number to come from Mexico Legally, so how is it fair to have more than their legal share come?
2. How does those that come illegally and allowed to stay and be harboured help those that wait in line to come legally? Where is the compassion for those that wait in line?
3. If you allow those illegal to be come legal, you then justify them to be able to move their respective family members to USA ahead of all those waitng in line to come legally. How is that compassion for those that have waited 10-15 years legally.
4. My wife has waited 6 years for legal Citizenship.
Much of this is shear nonsence.
1. The Law allows a greater number to come from Mexico Legally, so how is it fair to have more than their legal share come?
2. How does those that come illegally and allowed to stay and be harboured help those that wait in line to come legally? Where is the compassion for those that wait in line?
3. If you allow those illegal to be come legal, you then justify them to be able to move their respective family members to USA ahead of all those waitng in line to come legally. How is that compassion for those that have waited 10-15 years legally.
4. My wife has waited 6 years for legal Citizenship.
Barryrichfield | 9:47 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
My wife has waited 6 years to get her legal Citizenship.
WE jumped through all the hoops. Good or bad . All this discussion isn't about changing the immigration law. Or you would address it. All this discussion is about how to make legal those that broke the law.How to reward them.
Those here seem to forget compassion was shown a little more than 15 years ago when amnesty was given to that group of illegals. From then on those coming were to come through the front door.
Surprise, they continued to come through the back door.12-20,000,000 of them. Now you want to have compassion on.
Let me suggest to you there are still people waiting in line that have yet to arrive legally from back the 1st time amnesty was given. They still wait their respective turn. Where is your compassion for them.They are every bit as hungry, seperated from their family, living poor.
What of those from Asia, Africa waiting, how is it fair that one country has a large share legally, then 10 times the amount of them come over the border illegally, while the rest do not have the same opportunity.
Punish those legally waiting? Compassion?
WE jumped through all the hoops. Good or bad . All this discussion isn't about changing the immigration law. Or you would address it. All this discussion is about how to make legal those that broke the law.How to reward them.
Those here seem to forget compassion was shown a little more than 15 years ago when amnesty was given to that group of illegals. From then on those coming were to come through the front door.
Surprise, they continued to come through the back door.12-20,000,000 of them. Now you want to have compassion on.
Let me suggest to you there are still people waiting in line that have yet to arrive legally from back the 1st time amnesty was given. They still wait their respective turn. Where is your compassion for them.They are every bit as hungry, seperated from their family, living poor.
What of those from Asia, Africa waiting, how is it fair that one country has a large share legally, then 10 times the amount of them come over the border illegally, while the rest do not have the same opportunity.
Punish those legally waiting? Compassion?
barryrichfield | 10:03 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I have visited 3rd world countries, have helped more than a few members and non
members to go to college, build houses, paid for many operations, taken a
wheelchair to the Philippines for a girl with no legs, sent enough money to pay
for 80 surgeries. I have visited the saints wards there in those poor countries.
I see little compassion being extented for those that legaly stay in their own
country. They are poor, have few things, no employment opportunities. little
food.
Give all the clarion cry you want to help the illegals and turn around and not lift one finger to help those that stay, or try to come legally -- see how Christ feels about a blind eye in favor of illegals that holds back any attention to those that also deserve this same compassion.
Some in the name of the family will spend their days, weekends building uptheir respective family, spend great amount of time doing work for the dead, but will have done absolutely nothing for the worthy poor of either their own Church or others that are located elsewhere in the world, but you want someone to help those that are here illegally.
Shame!
Give all the clarion cry you want to help the illegals and turn around and not lift one finger to help those that stay, or try to come legally -- see how Christ feels about a blind eye in favor of illegals that holds back any attention to those that also deserve this same compassion.
Some in the name of the family will spend their days, weekends building uptheir respective family, spend great amount of time doing work for the dead, but will have done absolutely nothing for the worthy poor of either their own Church or others that are located elsewhere in the world, but you want someone to help those that are here illegally.
Shame!
one voice , one vote | 10:26 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008
and you can't speak for me or have mine!
BRichfield | 5:44 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
you make a good pt., this country needs a house of order! I am a american and
my family along with myself are often put to the back of the line in favor of
these people. No more, No more!! We have relatives who have died right here from
Utah in this war fighting for our homelands by boundaries(where these people are
regulated by law and have made many attempts to infiltrate across the nation)
Homeland Security does come with a price. The Open Border policy allows for
disease increases that plague this population such as Aids, going undiagnosed
and unchecked, ruthless gangs, havoc of who's using who's ID. The
greater balance of justice needs to be rendered by border control, exact
numbers, fairness shown to good workers, corporations being held accountable,
what has been done is the false feeling of security which is a lie to these
vunerable people once again..is that the ICEman has given them a reprieve. But
call me what you will as I will stand by the law of the land because wasn't
it so long ago that the church was encouraging people to stay in their own
countries to make it heaven there!LEGAL!!!!!
How come... | 9:34 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008
2 illegal immigrants have a child and that child is legally a citizen?
That's crazy. Barring any enforcement of illegal immigration laws why
don't we just annex South America? Basically, that's what we've
done.
dp | 12:14 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
God has inspired people to break the law throughout scripture - even inspired
the righteous to kill people - why is it so hard to believe that he has inspired
people to flee Mexico and come to the US to make a better life for themselves
and future generations?
FG | 2:23 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Native of America: please don't use caps, it's annoying.
It took my forefathers 9 years of waiting to come here from Ireland during the potato famine. Immigration laws are designed to protect the workers. Every country has them. Business and labor work as a cycle. During times of high unemployment when there are few jobs, wages to the workers is at a stand still or reduced. We can't afford to have millions of people here with no jobs for them. During times of job growth, business has to compete for workers and wages go up. Because of this, immigration is limited to not affect the cycle. Having 15-20 million here illegally has disrupted this countries balance, and if we head into a recession, things are going to really get bad. Once the illegals are out of the country, then there will be more legal immigration. It's the illegals are keeping the legals out.
It took my forefathers 9 years of waiting to come here from Ireland during the potato famine. Immigration laws are designed to protect the workers. Every country has them. Business and labor work as a cycle. During times of high unemployment when there are few jobs, wages to the workers is at a stand still or reduced. We can't afford to have millions of people here with no jobs for them. During times of job growth, business has to compete for workers and wages go up. Because of this, immigration is limited to not affect the cycle. Having 15-20 million here illegally has disrupted this countries balance, and if we head into a recession, things are going to really get bad. Once the illegals are out of the country, then there will be more legal immigration. It's the illegals are keeping the legals out.
barryrichfield | 4:47 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
So let me get this right. God inspired the 12-20 million to come across the
border illegally, but the devil inspired all those that have been waiting in
line legally . So those in line are fools, waiting to come to USA the right way.
If I understand you , if 1 person comes illegally , then they sneak their relatives over the border later, so they have a full family or extend family here. As all 12-20,000,000 didn't get here the same day. then it is a good thing. Now let me see, If the Church doesn't care if they are illegal as long as they are baptized. and doodesn't mind if they bring more in illegally, and provides fast offerings to sustain them, and gives them jobs. What messages is being given to those that wait their turn?
Isn't that aiding and abetting illegal activity. And Here I get to see them in the temple????? My that is wonderful. So may wife's 6 years for citizenship, and at least another 15 years to get her parents here is stupid if we try to do it legally. They should have to suffer because a few countries dominate illegally.
If I understand you , if 1 person comes illegally , then they sneak their relatives over the border later, so they have a full family or extend family here. As all 12-20,000,000 didn't get here the same day. then it is a good thing. Now let me see, If the Church doesn't care if they are illegal as long as they are baptized. and doodesn't mind if they bring more in illegally, and provides fast offerings to sustain them, and gives them jobs. What messages is being given to those that wait their turn?
Isn't that aiding and abetting illegal activity. And Here I get to see them in the temple????? My that is wonderful. So may wife's 6 years for citizenship, and at least another 15 years to get her parents here is stupid if we try to do it legally. They should have to suffer because a few countries dominate illegally.
barry richfield | 5:03 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Let's discuss more. For my wife to come to USA, she had to have a physical-
no diseases that protects those in USA- she had to have proof That I could
afford her here. That is she had to be sponsored in such away, that when here
she could not go on welfare or be a burden to the public at large. No food
stamps, no free lunch. no special Social Security. She can not work without
approval. She is legaly issued a card which cost more than a total of $3,000 to
obtain.Partly to insure that a good and complete background check is done to
insure she is legal, not a thief, has no criminal record, not a prostitute, and
so on, not a terrorist.
after jumping through all these legal hoops, she must learn and identify with American values and language.
so you play the compassion card for those that skip all these standards to whose benefit? certainly not mine or my children or to the benefit of my wife, either. We have a legal child and legal parents.
If you want to show compassion sponsor someone to come into USA legally. State law doesn't change legal status
after jumping through all these legal hoops, she must learn and identify with American values and language.
so you play the compassion card for those that skip all these standards to whose benefit? certainly not mine or my children or to the benefit of my wife, either. We have a legal child and legal parents.
If you want to show compassion sponsor someone to come into USA legally. State law doesn't change legal status
barry richfield | 5:17 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Let's talk about English.
all schools in the Philippines are taught in English even thoughj the people speak their ownm language. Almost every philippino that comes to America can simulate to the american way of life.
In Mexico , where you may have millions upon millions coming to USA - absolutely no attempt is being made to assist their people to learn English, yet there President wants them to come to USA and send money home. If he cared about his people, they can learn Spanish at home, and english in their respective public schools. If you were a leader of this country and you wanted to assist your people and your neighbor relations , that would be the best way to serve those of mexico. That would have been 12-20 million English speaking people , what a difference it would make on how or what type a problem we would have with them here. At least a 1/3 or more of the problems are because they can not understand English and need to stay in their own little communities rather than assimulate into the American culture. Because they are illegal they can stay non english speaking increasing the problem.
all schools in the Philippines are taught in English even thoughj the people speak their ownm language. Almost every philippino that comes to America can simulate to the american way of life.
In Mexico , where you may have millions upon millions coming to USA - absolutely no attempt is being made to assist their people to learn English, yet there President wants them to come to USA and send money home. If he cared about his people, they can learn Spanish at home, and english in their respective public schools. If you were a leader of this country and you wanted to assist your people and your neighbor relations , that would be the best way to serve those of mexico. That would have been 12-20 million English speaking people , what a difference it would make on how or what type a problem we would have with them here. At least a 1/3 or more of the problems are because they can not understand English and need to stay in their own little communities rather than assimulate into the American culture. Because they are illegal they can stay non english speaking increasing the problem.
Barry Richfield | 5:25 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
The Churches , the state, the public , the social security, the welfare
programs, the educational, and hospitals and all citizens are absolutely not
opposed to legal immigration. I promise you Legal immigration protects all. It
has nothing to do with incouraging illegal immigration.
You want more legal immigration, then seek to change those laws that either increase the flow of people or changes the policies that need to be followed to get people here. Seems to me your forefathers addressed that, but what am I to believe they didn't care about you or them once they were here.
Stupid me to think that they wanted to protect you from having to carry burdens such as bad diseases from getting into USA, or letting terrorist in, or criminals, letting peop[le in who could not sustain themselves or their families . Seems they provided a way for those that came to learn the American culture, allowed to keep own , but learn ours as well. and our language. To respect our law. Seem they gave the citizens a chance to show compassion by sponsoring and insuring they would come legally and appropriately, in an orderly way, and legally, each waiting turn.
You want more legal immigration, then seek to change those laws that either increase the flow of people or changes the policies that need to be followed to get people here. Seems to me your forefathers addressed that, but what am I to believe they didn't care about you or them once they were here.
Stupid me to think that they wanted to protect you from having to carry burdens such as bad diseases from getting into USA, or letting terrorist in, or criminals, letting peop[le in who could not sustain themselves or their families . Seems they provided a way for those that came to learn the American culture, allowed to keep own , but learn ours as well. and our language. To respect our law. Seem they gave the citizens a chance to show compassion by sponsoring and insuring they would come legally and appropriately, in an orderly way, and legally, each waiting turn.
Anonymous | 9:06 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008
What else can you expect from Jensen! He's a LAWYER! These knuckleheads all
think alike.
Jan | 1:08 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Since when does a seventy peak for the first presidency of the LDS church?
Joseph Smith disliked attorneys because they always twist the truth. Elder
Jensen is in no way authorities spokesmen for the LDS church. He is not part of
the Quorum of the 12, and he has little authority and should not express himself
as he has. During Sunday meetings this week many members were upset over his
actions. And for those of you who try to cover this up-- SHAME ON YOU!
Dear Barry, | 1:37 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
I'm sorry we are stretching the limits of your compassion. Apparently you are not alone in feeling your capacity for tolerance is being strained to the breaking point.
We are at your mercy, and we beg you: these are our friends. They are real people next door whom we barbeque with, play softball with, go to church with. Our children play together.
We understand they broke the law. We understand your sense of justice demands punishment. We know there are others in the world much worse off, and we are working along with you in your humanitarian causes. But we still care deeply about these our good neighbors. They have blessed our lives and we love them. We have found that although they came here illegally to take the jobs we offered them, their hearts are still good, and they are some of the most decent, hard-working people we know.
If there is any possible way we can work together to solve our border problem without having to uproot them, terrify them, and dash their hopes of a better life for their families, then please--let us give it every chance we can.
Sincerely,
A fellow Utahn and friend
Dave | 2:18 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
Dear fellow Utahn and friend:
Are you serious or do you feel compelled to speak this way?
I have great doubts about the sincerity of all of the talk of compassion. Not one writer for the Deseret News or General Authority supports shutting the border and resolving this issue?
No problem at all here that doesn't simply need a compassion bandaid?
How simple. Why didn't we think of this before. Revelation?
Bunk!
Please explain how having barbeques con tus amigos, who sense no obligation to obey our laws since we're so full of compassion towards them, will encourage the tens of millions of others work through legal channels to enter this country? It won't.
How will playing softball (great use of words, friend) and being Good Neighbor Sam encourage these people to respect your property and rights (governed by those pesky laws they can pick and choose to obey). It won't.
How will having everything printed in Spanish encourage these people to learn English and integrate into this country's culture? It won't.
You like living next door to illegals? Good, because soon they'll be the only neighbors you have in Utah, their new Mecca.
Are you serious or do you feel compelled to speak this way?
I have great doubts about the sincerity of all of the talk of compassion. Not one writer for the Deseret News or General Authority supports shutting the border and resolving this issue?
No problem at all here that doesn't simply need a compassion bandaid?
How simple. Why didn't we think of this before. Revelation?
Bunk!
Please explain how having barbeques con tus amigos, who sense no obligation to obey our laws since we're so full of compassion towards them, will encourage the tens of millions of others work through legal channels to enter this country? It won't.
How will playing softball (great use of words, friend) and being Good Neighbor Sam encourage these people to respect your property and rights (governed by those pesky laws they can pick and choose to obey). It won't.
How will having everything printed in Spanish encourage these people to learn English and integrate into this country's culture? It won't.
You like living next door to illegals? Good, because soon they'll be the only neighbors you have in Utah, their new Mecca.
Get a life! | 2:51 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
People should NEVER feel sorry for those who break laws. It then says to others
that it's okay to break them. American's who are legal go to jail for
less crimes than do any illegals--- what's this? This is crime against law
abiding Americans.
I am totally disgusted!! There are NO EXCUSES FOR THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!
I am totally disgusted!! There are NO EXCUSES FOR THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!
barry richfield | 8:05 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
dear Utahn and friend
You see the problem as one kind friend, you fail to see they represent 12-20,000,000 who also have friends, and will also continue to live illegal , that they will have to falsify all they do. Lie, never be able to corect their deeds without ever leaving the USA, They will be unable to repent until you presuade them to go home. and enter through the correct gate. You are aiding and disabling them, from taking the actions necessary. You and they hope that some how they will be given a free pass to stay, legally, That they will have a (right) to ignore their wrong doing while expecting all others that wait in line to have to come in through the front door. You feel will not effect another soul.
I suppose the 1/3 the host of heaven felt the same way, they wanted the same rights, but were not willing to do what was required of them, they felt they should also have a guarantee to have what they wanted. Rules of law meant nothing. You take no action or responsibility. Pay to support them while they are illegal,show charity for them and us
You see the problem as one kind friend, you fail to see they represent 12-20,000,000 who also have friends, and will also continue to live illegal , that they will have to falsify all they do. Lie, never be able to corect their deeds without ever leaving the USA, They will be unable to repent until you presuade them to go home. and enter through the correct gate. You are aiding and disabling them, from taking the actions necessary. You and they hope that some how they will be given a free pass to stay, legally, That they will have a (right) to ignore their wrong doing while expecting all others that wait in line to have to come in through the front door. You feel will not effect another soul.
I suppose the 1/3 the host of heaven felt the same way, they wanted the same rights, but were not willing to do what was required of them, they felt they should also have a guarantee to have what they wanted. Rules of law meant nothing. You take no action or responsibility. Pay to support them while they are illegal,show charity for them and us
Dave | 10:42 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008
And another thing . . .
I don't think I'm alone in wanting the Deseret News' editors and Church leaders to explain why it is so imperative that we overlook this whole illegal immigrant issue.
Forget the sob stories and compassion menu de jour. They don't work. Flattery only works on those who flatter.
Please explain who issued the mandate for the sympathy, the sob stories, and now the guilt trip. Further, please tell us why.
That seems simple. I'm just not confident you can be genuine about it.
I don't think I'm alone in wanting the Deseret News' editors and Church leaders to explain why it is so imperative that we overlook this whole illegal immigrant issue.
Forget the sob stories and compassion menu de jour. They don't work. Flattery only works on those who flatter.
Please explain who issued the mandate for the sympathy, the sob stories, and now the guilt trip. Further, please tell us why.
That seems simple. I'm just not confident you can be genuine about it.
thinker | 8:18 p.m. Feb. 25, 2008
1) Elder Jensen did not condone illegal immigration - he suggested compasssion.
Do you think a man a god should suggest incompassion ?
2) THere are many home builders and landscapers that live in my ward in their $700k-$1,000k homes. THat is money that was built on the backs of illegal immigrants? I mean should a landscaper make 250K/ year because they have the "talent" of hiring illegals(payed on 1099 without no taxes withheld and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab for all the social/infrastructure costs).
I think that these people bear some serious responsibility for the problem. I asked the contractor that built my house if he used illegal immigrants and he told me " I'm no documents expert, if they show me paper with number on it I accept it." Of course none of them could speak beyond even rudimentary english.
Perhaps the legislature should address this, maybe if they passed a law requiring withholding from payments to 1099 "independant contractors", that would go a long way towards solving the problem
2) THere are many home builders and landscapers that live in my ward in their $700k-$1,000k homes. THat is money that was built on the backs of illegal immigrants? I mean should a landscaper make 250K/ year because they have the "talent" of hiring illegals(payed on 1099 without no taxes withheld and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab for all the social/infrastructure costs).
I think that these people bear some serious responsibility for the problem. I asked the contractor that built my house if he used illegal immigrants and he told me " I'm no documents expert, if they show me paper with number on it I accept it." Of course none of them could speak beyond even rudimentary english.
Perhaps the legislature should address this, maybe if they passed a law requiring withholding from payments to 1099 "independant contractors", that would go a long way towards solving the problem
Anonymous | 6:26 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
orrin hatch is the proble
Anonymous | 1:14 p.m. June 1, 2009
I agree with the article. It is Christlike to have compassion and to share what
we have. This country has been given so much by God. The more we give, the more
He will give us. Let's keep it that way.
James J. Peterson | 9:29 p.m. June 6, 2009
Lets get behind Elder Jensen. I spent years of my life introducing the LDS
faith to people who live in a Latin nation. I find it sad that people of my
faith dont want the very same people living near them. This is a culture war
that has everything to do with keeping the other out of our land. It is not an
easy task to cross legally or illegally. If you want to keep these people legal
lets change our laws to make it easy to become a member of our society. Rather
then brushing our brothers and sisters under the rug.
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Elder Marlin K. Jensen of Quorum of the Seventy talks at interfaith dialogue. At his side is Bishop John Wester.
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Could one of you good LDS folks please explain what Christ meant when He taught that *there is no greater law* than loving God and loving your neighbor? What did Paul mean when he said that without charity, we are nothing? What did Moroni mean that without charity, we cannot be saved?
The comment about having compassion for the Gadianton Robbers was priceless. Thanks for the chuckle--though a sad one. I honestly pity anyone and everyone who really believes that the Gadianton Robbers are building and painting our houses, cleaning our streets, maintaining our public spaces, building our roads, and so forth.
You really need to MEET some of these people, as I have. Before you do, be forewarned: You might learn they're human beings, too! So getting to know some of them might cause you to lose your blind hatred and prejudice.
I guess it depends on what you value more!