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New Harmony: Current focus concentrates on retaining LDS members
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dnews | 3:16 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Thanks dnews for your column.
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 3:24 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I have to say, having been a member since when I was in my young teens, and
continued on for more then 20 years, which includes serving a full time mission
and serving the plethora of callings, my process of leaving the church took more
then a few years, as I gave it time and more time, study and more study,
pondering and thinking, watching the promises made by the doctrines of the
church to come true if you live according to it.
What I have found is that, the doctrines are nothing less and nothing more then those people who are on TV and claim that they can speak to member of your family who has passed on. They say a lot of what might be so something hopefully will stick and that you can relate.
They would say something like,"You have someone you're close to that you've lost, don't you?"
"You have been thinking about this person over the years, haven't you?"
Well, hello!!! General questions of course would hit on most people's hearts.
Finally I left because I've noticed that people in the church acts mainly on fear, not love.
The members here proves it again.
What I have found is that, the doctrines are nothing less and nothing more then those people who are on TV and claim that they can speak to member of your family who has passed on. They say a lot of what might be so something hopefully will stick and that you can relate.
They would say something like,"You have someone you're close to that you've lost, don't you?"
"You have been thinking about this person over the years, haven't you?"
Well, hello!!! General questions of course would hit on most people's hearts.
Finally I left because I've noticed that people in the church acts mainly on fear, not love.
The members here proves it again.
Comments continue below
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 3:45 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Furthermore, the promises made is not congruent with results.
I hear general conference making statements that a good and faithful member means that you'll be blessed with a wonderful life by God. It's very formulaic, and very matter of fact.
Well, the real matter of fact is that God is not formulaic, and do not make guarantees on this earth that if you live by His teachings, you will live a blessed life. To believe on the church's doctrines means that everyone in the 3rd world countries are awful sinners, and are being punished by their lack of beliefs and good behavior.
We all know that there are poor people and less blessed who are good people, and rich and blessed people who are not very good people at all. No, I'm not talking about Bill Gates.
So, the formulaic equations just doesn't compute, it doesn't add up neatly as the church's doctrines purport.
In the real world, there are unhappy people that are blessed by God, and there are happy people condemned by God. There are blessed people who are His enemies, and there are non blessed people who are His people.
I hear general conference making statements that a good and faithful member means that you'll be blessed with a wonderful life by God. It's very formulaic, and very matter of fact.
Well, the real matter of fact is that God is not formulaic, and do not make guarantees on this earth that if you live by His teachings, you will live a blessed life. To believe on the church's doctrines means that everyone in the 3rd world countries are awful sinners, and are being punished by their lack of beliefs and good behavior.
We all know that there are poor people and less blessed who are good people, and rich and blessed people who are not very good people at all. No, I'm not talking about Bill Gates.
So, the formulaic equations just doesn't compute, it doesn't add up neatly as the church's doctrines purport.
In the real world, there are unhappy people that are blessed by God, and there are happy people condemned by God. There are blessed people who are His enemies, and there are non blessed people who are His people.
i hope the brethren | 4:41 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
are reading these blogs ..it will give them such a good reading on how both non,
ex and present day members view things. then the mighty change can happen. i
have enjoyed these comments no matter how pro or con..kind of has shades of a
different time when this all started..but the feeling of true kindness seems to
come to mind..no matter what the situation as the best antidote, so peace be to
all! may we all find happiness because we are going to need each other in the
future as mother nature will start speaking for herself.
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 4:54 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Also, as one of my processing of information, we've been told that this is
Christ's church, hence His name is on it. But the truth of the fact is, the
church is federally registered as, "Corporation of the President of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints".
Christ's name comes second to the Corporation of the President. So, what does this say? This church is a corporation, and it's owned by the President of the church. The church also owns other corporations, and each of them has CEOs that runs it's businesses, with the church as it's chairman.
With this in mind, we learn that Christ has number of business ventures He is running on this earth. Well, I didn't know that Christ is making money from His children. He is a for profit Savior, which is very laughable if you really think of it.
I looked into whether the Savior was venturing into a little business when He was in Jerusalem, just as a side thing He does to make a little living, and there was not an iota of information that suggests such.
So, He was really focused into saving souls as His single purpose.
Christ's name comes second to the Corporation of the President. So, what does this say? This church is a corporation, and it's owned by the President of the church. The church also owns other corporations, and each of them has CEOs that runs it's businesses, with the church as it's chairman.
With this in mind, we learn that Christ has number of business ventures He is running on this earth. Well, I didn't know that Christ is making money from His children. He is a for profit Savior, which is very laughable if you really think of it.
I looked into whether the Savior was venturing into a little business when He was in Jerusalem, just as a side thing He does to make a little living, and there was not an iota of information that suggests such.
So, He was really focused into saving souls as His single purpose.
boiseguy | 5:00 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
those damn people come knocking at the door all the time seeming so nice and
caring until they find out I'm gay and live with my partner then they have
nothing more to say. Guess a gay person's salvation isn't important?
LOL... that church is a mess, I grew up in it and you know it was what it was..
no regrets, but man the people are as naive and ignorant as they come, and they
are the most assertive when thinking they have it all figured out.
Church would be fun and enlightening if it really was about fellowship and tolerance, but its more of a social club where you must fit an unspoken mold, its where blubbering housewives can vent their sorrows to a crowd every month.. and see the hand of god in their lives when she found little molly's shoe... *rollseys*
its a cult... they don't like to hear that word, but whether good or bad... it is what it is...
Church would be fun and enlightening if it really was about fellowship and tolerance, but its more of a social club where you must fit an unspoken mold, its where blubbering housewives can vent their sorrows to a crowd every month.. and see the hand of god in their lives when she found little molly's shoe... *rollseys*
its a cult... they don't like to hear that word, but whether good or bad... it is what it is...
Craving Real Honesty | 5:04 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I have spent several years studying both sides of the more troubling church
history and doctrine. I have spoken to Bishops, Stake Presidents, institute
leaders as well as very learned historians and former LDS leaders who have also
studied the issues for years. And unfortunately, after years of study and PRAYER
I do believe there is much more factual evidence that indicates the history of
the Church has not been told to it's members in an honest way. Even many
Church leaders who are knowledgeable will eventually admit this but try to find
explanations around it. After all of this study and prayer I do believe the
Church is an organization that provides some wonderful service and personal
growth opportunities for some its members. But I simply cannot continue to put
evidence and reason on the shelf or twist logic into the pretzel needed to
believe that the Savior actually restored the truth to Joseph Smith in the form
of the LDS Church. If he did - he did so in an extremely convoluted and
constantly changing and contradictory way. I respect those with a testimony. But
please respect that there a VERY legitimate reasons that some just cannot
believe.
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 5:30 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I respect those who thinks the church is the way and only.
Rightly so, believe in something if it helps you. It's better if a soul believes in a potato chip and it helps them become better and happier people, then believe in Christ, be a church goer on Sunday, but as Christ has identified the Pharisees and their lives, "your hearts are far from me".
A church general authority has been quoted that this church is for the weak, and we're all weak, but would like to think we're strong.
Those who thinks that their house is bigger then your house, and their car is faster then your car, and my dad can beat up your dad, or my God will beat up your God, well, then that's all that the church has benefited them.
I left the church because I didn't think the church and it's doctrines should be a conflict in my soul, where the teachings are not always congruent, because Christ should always be congruent.
But I took several years of research and soul searching before I took the plunge to walk out.
For those who thinks, I chose evil, then why become like them?
Rightly so, believe in something if it helps you. It's better if a soul believes in a potato chip and it helps them become better and happier people, then believe in Christ, be a church goer on Sunday, but as Christ has identified the Pharisees and their lives, "your hearts are far from me".
A church general authority has been quoted that this church is for the weak, and we're all weak, but would like to think we're strong.
Those who thinks that their house is bigger then your house, and their car is faster then your car, and my dad can beat up your dad, or my God will beat up your God, well, then that's all that the church has benefited them.
I left the church because I didn't think the church and it's doctrines should be a conflict in my soul, where the teachings are not always congruent, because Christ should always be congruent.
But I took several years of research and soul searching before I took the plunge to walk out.
For those who thinks, I chose evil, then why become like them?
Stinker | 6:26 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
There may be some members that don't do everything right but they would
probably be worse if they weren't members of the LDS Church.
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 6:42 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Look, it's simple, one does not become a concert violinist just because
they say they own a Sradivarius. Some thinks they're a marvelous musician
just because they can afford a $4 million violin. Yet, there are top players out
there who can make beautiful music with their not so expensive and extravagant
instrument, like those in China, because they can't afford it.
So, really a beautiful life is like a fine pianist or violinist, it's the musician's touch and soul that makes the music, not the piano or violin.
I've heard awful music and awful musicians playing on a beautiful instrument.
It's the same with churches, or religion, it's only an instrument, another tool, but not the only tool. That's why there are people who are Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and even atheists, that are more more humble, more loving than a lot of Christians. I lived with an atheist who was my room-mate, and he is more kinder than a lot of Mormons that I know.
Whatever your beliefs, play your instrument right, and it will make you music that you can live with, and that others can also enjoy.
Some Mormon's music sounds just sadly awful.
Fire the teacher
So, really a beautiful life is like a fine pianist or violinist, it's the musician's touch and soul that makes the music, not the piano or violin.
I've heard awful music and awful musicians playing on a beautiful instrument.
It's the same with churches, or religion, it's only an instrument, another tool, but not the only tool. That's why there are people who are Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and even atheists, that are more more humble, more loving than a lot of Christians. I lived with an atheist who was my room-mate, and he is more kinder than a lot of Mormons that I know.
Whatever your beliefs, play your instrument right, and it will make you music that you can live with, and that others can also enjoy.
Some Mormon's music sounds just sadly awful.
Fire the teacher
FLIP FLOPPING DOCTRINES | 7:06 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Therefore, the Mormons who are happy in their church and what they think they
have become because of it, then stay and hear and do what the church says, and I
believe it's important for you to follow what your conscience dictates.
If you enjoy trashing others who have left the church, or don't believe your beliefs, and that it's the way the Lord wants you to act, then continue to do so. Certainly if you believe that you'll get to Heaven by trashing others, then you ought to do more of it.
Those who are trashed, you ought to prove to yourself and others that you heart is of Christ, not of man, like these others who are proving more than ever than they have become the very people that gave us reason to leave in the first place, because we don't want to become the kind of people their church has made them to be.
If you enjoy trashing others who have left the church, or don't believe your beliefs, and that it's the way the Lord wants you to act, then continue to do so. Certainly if you believe that you'll get to Heaven by trashing others, then you ought to do more of it.
Those who are trashed, you ought to prove to yourself and others that you heart is of Christ, not of man, like these others who are proving more than ever than they have become the very people that gave us reason to leave in the first place, because we don't want to become the kind of people their church has made them to be.
Brian Utley | 7:25 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
The day I renounced my membership in the LDS church was the most satisfying day
of my life. I was finally rid of the guilt and fear that no real loving God and
father would ever willingly impose on his children. (1) Reintroduce revelation
into the Church; (2) reintroduce free agency; (3)reintroduce reliance on God,
rather than reliance on "the brethren"; (4)eliminate the lies and
revisionist histories that have quietly come to influence the perspectives of
the current generation of Church members; (5) tell the truth. Do all of these
things and a thousand more and you will make friends with the people who have
been able to think and pray their way out of the mistake-ridden church that the
LDS Church has become. It is no longer beautiful to many of us. It is not
because we are a bunch of derelicts or malcontents. We were believers. Most of
us are people who love the truth, but sinmply refuse to continue gobble up the
bull.
To Michael... | 7:31 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
You said:, "Can't you just leave the Church alone or do you only feel
better broadcasting the reason for your decision to leave the faith to others.
There are tons of Catholics, Protestants etc. who have left their faiths, but I
do not see them broadcasting their viewpoints and reasons for doing so".
It's simple, it's because the Mormon church doesn't leave those who have left alone. It's takes long time for your name to be removed when asked, and unlike the Catholics, Protestants, who leave their members alone, and Mormon church don't.
There is a saying in the bible known as, Hypocrisy.
This whole article about the church's intention of retention is exactly the hypocrisy spoken of.
It's simple, it's because the Mormon church doesn't leave those who have left alone. It's takes long time for your name to be removed when asked, and unlike the Catholics, Protestants, who leave their members alone, and Mormon church don't.
There is a saying in the bible known as, Hypocrisy.
This whole article about the church's intention of retention is exactly the hypocrisy spoken of.
from PA | 7:45 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
As a convert from back east, as least in the ward I was baptised in, retention
didn't seem to be foremost on the minds of the other members (other than
the bishopric), even though most of them were also converts. Many of them
judged new members based on jobs, family history, etc. There were also those
who spoke "out-of-school" and discussed things which are not for
everyone's ears. These are among the things that led to our "less
active" status. While we still believe in the teachings, and we know that
the members are not perfect, there were things said and done that still trouble
us 20+ years later. Now, here in UT, we have had great bishops who have tried
to bring us back, but the other members basically ignore us, especially after
finding out that: 1) we come from outside UT, 2) we aren't lifelong members
and 3) we have special needs children. Maybe there needs to be talks in GC
about retention (and perhaps sensitivity training for aux. leaders).
LDS owns patent of Christ | 8:53 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I know that Mormons leaders and Mormon members thinks they own the rights and
patents to Jesus Christ.
They own His truths, and they own His teachings. They have the right to receive all His blessings, and all His love.
They have all the patents to His powers and His wisdom.
The church receives all monies on behalf of Christ, and spends all monies that Christ owns. All that Christ owns are theirs and theirs only.
Therefore, all others of mankind have no part of Christ in the least, because no matter can contact nor receive anything from Christ.
If any man tries, Christ will not respond to their pathetic prayers because they do not have the priesthood given only to them by Christ, plus He will not respond because Christ can't possibly come to them because they don't have the truthsas given to them by Christ.
They also don't have the kind of love that Mormons have towards Christ, because they can't possibly have that kind of depth that's only given to Mormons by Christ.
Christ only loves those who are Mormons, want to be Mormons, or kind to Mormons.
This is Mormonism, simplified.
They own His truths, and they own His teachings. They have the right to receive all His blessings, and all His love.
They have all the patents to His powers and His wisdom.
The church receives all monies on behalf of Christ, and spends all monies that Christ owns. All that Christ owns are theirs and theirs only.
Therefore, all others of mankind have no part of Christ in the least, because no matter can contact nor receive anything from Christ.
If any man tries, Christ will not respond to their pathetic prayers because they do not have the priesthood given only to them by Christ, plus He will not respond because Christ can't possibly come to them because they don't have the truthsas given to them by Christ.
They also don't have the kind of love that Mormons have towards Christ, because they can't possibly have that kind of depth that's only given to Mormons by Christ.
Christ only loves those who are Mormons, want to be Mormons, or kind to Mormons.
This is Mormonism, simplified.
BYE FRIENDS! | 10:17 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Nice to read there are people like me who have left the church for the same
reason I did. I was a Relief Society President & Primary President. I finely
over come my depression by leaving. So go ahead and cast stones at me if you
would like, but you should know that I am no longer feeling suicidal, because I
could not be the perfect stereotype Mormon.
I AM FINELY HAPPY!
I AM FINELY HAPPY!
Do you really think... | 10:31 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Most reasoned adults (including most members and leaders) with half a brain
actually and fully believe the church myths (literal first vision, heavenly
visitors, gold plates in a hillside, seer stones and other occult items, temple
ceremonies meaning more than a ritual for pledges of sincere dedication?
I don't, I think those who leave don't want to look the other way any longer just because of tradition, family pressure, wanting to belong, the security and promises given, the social network, the social pressures, the joy one finds with others in common cause.
Nothing wrong with retention but lets get real...some just want off the ride and should be respected for their choice
I don't, I think those who leave don't want to look the other way any longer just because of tradition, family pressure, wanting to belong, the security and promises given, the social network, the social pressures, the joy one finds with others in common cause.
Nothing wrong with retention but lets get real...some just want off the ride and should be respected for their choice
Dan | 10:48 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
The LDS church may as well save it's efforts. People generally don't
leave the church because of weakness, or losing their way. They leave because
they've allowed their brainwashed minds to see reality. There is such an
overwhelming amount of evidence that is now readily available that all but
proves the LDS church is a 19th century fabrication. Yeah, the gospel according
to Joseph Smith may sound nice; the problem is that it is nothing more than a
sham.
To--Leave Me Alone! | 11:05 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
I�ve been a member 36 years, less active part of the time
but have always had a testimony of Christ and the church.
I�ve never seen what Leave Me Alone disdains:
"I share not the thinnest thread of commonality with Mormon culture. It's too insular, mean-spirited and petty for my liking. You can understand the nature of a tree by the fruit on its branches. I find the fruit of Mormonism too bitter for my tastes."
People in church have--for the most part--been kind and good to me. I don�t expect perfection, just the effort to become more Christlike.
Here are some of the mean-spirited things that have happened to me: Sisters offering/going with me when I had my cancer surgeries, people bringing dinner to the house for many nights afterwards. Offers of rides, child care, and housekeeping. After an ice storm ten years ago left branches waist deep all over my property, 25 men from my ward showed up with six pickups/4-horse trailer and cleared my property. Two hours later, there was not a twig to be found.
Along with the Jesus and the Spirit, wonderful, loving members draw me to church. Some are incredible examples of Christlike love.
"I share not the thinnest thread of commonality with Mormon culture. It's too insular, mean-spirited and petty for my liking. You can understand the nature of a tree by the fruit on its branches. I find the fruit of Mormonism too bitter for my tastes."
People in church have--for the most part--been kind and good to me. I don�t expect perfection, just the effort to become more Christlike.
Here are some of the mean-spirited things that have happened to me: Sisters offering/going with me when I had my cancer surgeries, people bringing dinner to the house for many nights afterwards. Offers of rides, child care, and housekeeping. After an ice storm ten years ago left branches waist deep all over my property, 25 men from my ward showed up with six pickups/4-horse trailer and cleared my property. Two hours later, there was not a twig to be found.
Along with the Jesus and the Spirit, wonderful, loving members draw me to church. Some are incredible examples of Christlike love.
To "Flip Flopping Doctrines" | 11:15 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Dude, your post refers to "flip flopping doctrines" but then you
don't mention any. Not one single "change" of doctrine that
continually changes with the wind. Why would that be? Uh....because there
aren't any. And don't bring up polygamy or non-white races receiving
the Priesthood, either. "Flip-flopping" implies "constantly
changing from one position to another position and then back to the previous
position whenever it's adavantageous to do so". The Savior, nor His
church, does that.
You apparently freaked out because, for tax purposes I'm sure, the name of the church as it's known to the federal government is "The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"? Man, if that shakes your testimony of the restored Gospel, your testimony (at that time) must have been pretty shaky itself. Now it's obviously weaker.
You're angry because the Church deals in large amounts of money and you claim that you "looked at the Savior's life" and found he never dealt in/with money? He was a carpenter before he began His 3 year ministry as the Savior. How do you know He never swung a hammer for money?
Your angry and your opinions here are wrong.
You apparently freaked out because, for tax purposes I'm sure, the name of the church as it's known to the federal government is "The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"? Man, if that shakes your testimony of the restored Gospel, your testimony (at that time) must have been pretty shaky itself. Now it's obviously weaker.
You're angry because the Church deals in large amounts of money and you claim that you "looked at the Savior's life" and found he never dealt in/with money? He was a carpenter before he began His 3 year ministry as the Savior. How do you know He never swung a hammer for money?
Your angry and your opinions here are wrong.
Hey Brian Utley and Others | 11:31 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Brigham Young once said "No man goes to hell in a single jump".
In other words, when you were so dilligently "studying" whether you should stay in the Church or leave, how much were you studying from the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants or from the Ensign, etc? How much were you REALLY praying to God for guidance?, not just "saying your prayers", but really talking to Him as a loving Father? How much fasting did you do? Did you just "go hungry" or was your fasting done with a purpose and constant, humble prayer? How much did you attend Church? When you went, did you actually go to your Sunday School and Priesthood meetings or did you just hang out in the foyer? Were you leading your family in prayer morning and night? Were you faithfully paying your tithing still? How often did you attend the Temple?
Were you, by chance, looking for a reason to leave due to either some previous sin or a future sin you wanted to commit?...."Church takes up so much time. I want to be free", etc.
Come on guys, be honest. You didn't REALLY do all these things, did you?...
In other words, when you were so dilligently "studying" whether you should stay in the Church or leave, how much were you studying from the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants or from the Ensign, etc? How much were you REALLY praying to God for guidance?, not just "saying your prayers", but really talking to Him as a loving Father? How much fasting did you do? Did you just "go hungry" or was your fasting done with a purpose and constant, humble prayer? How much did you attend Church? When you went, did you actually go to your Sunday School and Priesthood meetings or did you just hang out in the foyer? Were you leading your family in prayer morning and night? Were you faithfully paying your tithing still? How often did you attend the Temple?
Were you, by chance, looking for a reason to leave due to either some previous sin or a future sin you wanted to commit?...."Church takes up so much time. I want to be free", etc.
Come on guys, be honest. You didn't REALLY do all these things, did you?...
Re: To Flip Flop Doctrines | 11:32 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Thanks for your query, and to answer your question that my comments about flip
flop was not even brought up is because the monitors here decidedly not to post
it, and I had to repost certain things that I had originally posted, all out of
order, all because of the censorship that is again based upon the LDS ways.
Plus your comments,"You're angry because the Church deals in large amounts of money and you claim that you "looked at the Savior's life" and found he never dealt in/with money?"
Man, you can accuse me as angry or what not, you're welcome to make yourself expose the teachings of the church come through you, in your attitudes and in your bitterness towards others who are not of your faith.
Comparing Christ's actions before His ministry, which other books did you get this revelation and from what made up scripture? His actions before His ministry is totally separate to Him saving mankind, is something that maybe you'll never understand. And it's a really hard subject for you to try to understand, so I encourage you not to dwell into it too much in your mind, because it's too deep.
Plus your comments,"You're angry because the Church deals in large amounts of money and you claim that you "looked at the Savior's life" and found he never dealt in/with money?"
Man, you can accuse me as angry or what not, you're welcome to make yourself expose the teachings of the church come through you, in your attitudes and in your bitterness towards others who are not of your faith.
Comparing Christ's actions before His ministry, which other books did you get this revelation and from what made up scripture? His actions before His ministry is totally separate to Him saving mankind, is something that maybe you'll never understand. And it's a really hard subject for you to try to understand, so I encourage you not to dwell into it too much in your mind, because it's too deep.
To "from PA" at 7:45 | 11:36 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Hang in there, brother, hang in there! I'm so sorry that some of the
members have not acted very Christ-like towards you and your family. I SURE AM
GLAD to hear though that you still have your testimony of the Restoration.
Please, please don't let the angry ex-members influence you. I, for one, am a 6th generation Latter-day Saint and honestly do admire the members of the Church who are not born into Mormonism. It can be a real tough road finding the truth.
I remember as a brand-new missionary in Robertsdale, Alabama how I admired a strong family by the name of Waldrop who had been converted years before. As a new missionary I really craved gaining a stronger testimony. It took me some time to realize that "everyone is a convert" to the Gospel. Born and raised in the Church? Fine, but are you "converted" to the Gospel? Even 6th and 7th generation Mormons will not REALLY be Mormons if the testimony of the Gospel is not in their hearts. So, when people sometimes ask me "Are you a convert?" I say "I'm working on it!"
Keep the faith and God bless you, my friend!
Please, please don't let the angry ex-members influence you. I, for one, am a 6th generation Latter-day Saint and honestly do admire the members of the Church who are not born into Mormonism. It can be a real tough road finding the truth.
I remember as a brand-new missionary in Robertsdale, Alabama how I admired a strong family by the name of Waldrop who had been converted years before. As a new missionary I really craved gaining a stronger testimony. It took me some time to realize that "everyone is a convert" to the Gospel. Born and raised in the Church? Fine, but are you "converted" to the Gospel? Even 6th and 7th generation Mormons will not REALLY be Mormons if the testimony of the Gospel is not in their hearts. So, when people sometimes ask me "Are you a convert?" I say "I'm working on it!"
Keep the faith and God bless you, my friend!
Re: To Flip Flop Doctrines | 11:44 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Also, for your information, the church doesn't pay taxes.
I am amazed that you see the Savior as being in the business of owning a corporation.
My testimony wasn't shaky, it didn't even existed as I thought it did, as I had deluded myself into thinking that I had a testimony believing into all this phantom beliefs.
Look, you're gullible, and it's alright, because it makes you happy believing into something that gives you security, since you obviously won't survive in the big ocean swimming on your own steam. You need others to tell you where to win and how to swim, and even swim on your own behalf.
So, make sure you tell me and others like me that we're, whatever you want to call us by, and then be happy that you had just lived according to your church's teachings, because you have become what you are now due to what you have believed.
Let me tell you, I am so glad that I am drawing away from your beliefs, because I just don't like what I see and hear, and you are an excellent example and proof.
Know what I mean??
I am amazed that you see the Savior as being in the business of owning a corporation.
My testimony wasn't shaky, it didn't even existed as I thought it did, as I had deluded myself into thinking that I had a testimony believing into all this phantom beliefs.
Look, you're gullible, and it's alright, because it makes you happy believing into something that gives you security, since you obviously won't survive in the big ocean swimming on your own steam. You need others to tell you where to win and how to swim, and even swim on your own behalf.
So, make sure you tell me and others like me that we're, whatever you want to call us by, and then be happy that you had just lived according to your church's teachings, because you have become what you are now due to what you have believed.
Let me tell you, I am so glad that I am drawing away from your beliefs, because I just don't like what I see and hear, and you are an excellent example and proof.
Know what I mean??
A Patent on Christ? | 11:45 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Wow, you are one angry and misguided Hose'.
To any non-LDS folks out there, ie, those who've never belonged to the LDS faith....no, the Latter-day Saints do not doctrinally believe or teach that they and only they have access to God and His Son, Jesus Christ. That is a lie and the poster knows it full well. That is absolutely NOT "Mormonism simplified".
Sure, some members may be naive and somehow develop the FALSE idea that God loves LDS people more or answers their prayers first but that is a foolish notion by an occasional member here or there. It simply is not true. We are ALL God's children and He loves us ALL the SAME.
Yes, we believe that the LDS church is the Savior's restored church on the earth again but that does not mean we have ALL the truth yet or that we alone have any truth.
These are some angry people here. Ignore them is my advice and let God and God alone lead you.
To any non-LDS folks out there, ie, those who've never belonged to the LDS faith....no, the Latter-day Saints do not doctrinally believe or teach that they and only they have access to God and His Son, Jesus Christ. That is a lie and the poster knows it full well. That is absolutely NOT "Mormonism simplified".
Sure, some members may be naive and somehow develop the FALSE idea that God loves LDS people more or answers their prayers first but that is a foolish notion by an occasional member here or there. It simply is not true. We are ALL God's children and He loves us ALL the SAME.
Yes, we believe that the LDS church is the Savior's restored church on the earth again but that does not mean we have ALL the truth yet or that we alone have any truth.
These are some angry people here. Ignore them is my advice and let God and God alone lead you.
Re: To Flip Flop Doctrines | 11:52 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
Like I said before, believe in a potato chip if it helps, and if you believe
that Christ is a racist, until 1978, then, or that He can't make His mind
to make a commandment then make it a gross sin, then you make it as real as you
are welcome to make Christ to be.
As for me, that's not, nor could it even be remotely possible that Christ changed His mind, flip flopping His Doctrines.
Lets see whether this post will get through or not, or will it be deleted due to not being in accordance to your beliefs.
I am not ignorant that the Deseret News is owned by the church, and anything that goes against it is to be destroyed at all costs.
As for me, that's not, nor could it even be remotely possible that Christ changed His mind, flip flopping His Doctrines.
Lets see whether this post will get through or not, or will it be deleted due to not being in accordance to your beliefs.
I am not ignorant that the Deseret News is owned by the church, and anything that goes against it is to be destroyed at all costs.
To (former) RS Pres. at 10:17 | 11:54 p.m. Feb. 16, 2008
So you felt guilty because you "couldn't do it all". Since when
have we been commanded to be perfect before we die? Aren't we commanded to
do all things in "wisdom and order"? Didn't the prophet Joseph
Smith say that it would be a great work beyond the grave for each of us in order
to attain perfection?
As a former Relief Society President, you know as well as I do those answers are "never, yes, and yes". In short, you left because you felt something (extreme guilt) that you weren't supposed to be feeling in the first place. So who failed here?....the Church or you?
It wasn't the Church who "made" you feel guilty. Guilt was your own choice. Yes, even guilt that caused you to apparently consider suicide.
Please come back. I'm quite the perfectionist myself, I promise. (Drives my wife nuts!) The Savior's love and patience IS enough to get you through this.
Good luck!
As a former Relief Society President, you know as well as I do those answers are "never, yes, and yes". In short, you left because you felt something (extreme guilt) that you weren't supposed to be feeling in the first place. So who failed here?....the Church or you?
It wasn't the Church who "made" you feel guilty. Guilt was your own choice. Yes, even guilt that caused you to apparently consider suicide.
Please come back. I'm quite the perfectionist myself, I promise. (Drives my wife nuts!) The Savior's love and patience IS enough to get you through this.
Good luck!
To A Patent on Christ | 12:03 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
To bad that you don't like the truth. It hurts doesn't it??
I don't know why it is you that professes the lies of denial, when it's basic Mormon doctrines that they have the only fullness of the truth, and the only power of Christ, and the only source of revelation coming from Christ.
I know, because I taught it as a missionary, using the church's materials that I am required to use.
Bruce R. McKonkie goes as far as that the Catholics are the mother of Harlots to all other existing churches, who are the illegitimate children.
Dallin H Oaks talked in conference of the church is the only one that can bring you to Heaven.
The church's basic teaching is that only through the Mormon's priesthood authority that man can be saved.
So, this is plain and simple that Mormons has the Patent to the Savior.
So, why are you so hurt by this truth? It must strike a nerve. A nerve of truth that doesn't taste too good.
Angry? Anyone in the church who tells the real truth that are not what is wanted, are considered angry.
So typical.
What else is new??
I don't know why it is you that professes the lies of denial, when it's basic Mormon doctrines that they have the only fullness of the truth, and the only power of Christ, and the only source of revelation coming from Christ.
I know, because I taught it as a missionary, using the church's materials that I am required to use.
Bruce R. McKonkie goes as far as that the Catholics are the mother of Harlots to all other existing churches, who are the illegitimate children.
Dallin H Oaks talked in conference of the church is the only one that can bring you to Heaven.
The church's basic teaching is that only through the Mormon's priesthood authority that man can be saved.
So, this is plain and simple that Mormons has the Patent to the Savior.
So, why are you so hurt by this truth? It must strike a nerve. A nerve of truth that doesn't taste too good.
Angry? Anyone in the church who tells the real truth that are not what is wanted, are considered angry.
So typical.
What else is new??
To the Flip-flopping King | 12:08 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
You didn't present your "proof" that Christ NEVER did anything
for profit very well. Scratch that....you didn't present it at all. In
one of your posts you said you didn't think it was right that the Church
(essentially) dealt with money because the Savior never did. Now I don't
believe AT ALL that Jesus Christ performed one iota of His atonement for money
but you said that you "examined the life of the Savior" and had
learned (or had proof of the teaching) that Christ never did anything for money.
My question is, where did you get this "knowledge"? We know so very,
very little of the Savior's early life. We know only a little of His
birth, then we skip ahead to His 12th year and get only one short story and then
nothing until He starts His ministry at 30.
Why are you so convinced the Church is no longer true just because they receive money in the form of tithing, etc or they run (separately from the Church) businesses. I GUARANTEE that not one penny of their businesses go to the Church or vice versa.
I don't care if members leave until they start spreading lies.
Why are you so convinced the Church is no longer true just because they receive money in the form of tithing, etc or they run (separately from the Church) businesses. I GUARANTEE that not one penny of their businesses go to the Church or vice versa.
I don't care if members leave until they start spreading lies.
JIBBER JABBER | 12:17 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Jibber jabber no one cares!!! You can preach whatever jibber jabber you
want...NO ONE CARES!
To "Patent" | 12:23 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Wow, you are lost. How did you get this way?
The Priesthood the LDS church has been blessed with IS the only authority that has actually come from God to perform eternally necessary ordinances each child of God needs to return. I'm sorry you don't like that but that's not what I say, that is what God said. Exclusionary? No, not unless the Church said "we have the power and authority and you can't have it". THAT would be exclusionary but as a former missionary you know as well as I do that that is NOT what the LDS church does. Think!, my man, that's what you were supposed to be doing on your mission and you know it's what the Church is spreading to the world every day as fast as it can.
If you don't like Dallin H. Oaks proclaiming that only the LDS church has the power to lead one FULLY back to Christ (ie, receive the Celestial Kingdom), oh well. I don't know why you can't accept the fact that God is the one who sets the laws and He WILL toe the line. Did you really want him to say "anything goes"?
The Priesthood the LDS church has been blessed with IS the only authority that has actually come from God to perform eternally necessary ordinances each child of God needs to return. I'm sorry you don't like that but that's not what I say, that is what God said. Exclusionary? No, not unless the Church said "we have the power and authority and you can't have it". THAT would be exclusionary but as a former missionary you know as well as I do that that is NOT what the LDS church does. Think!, my man, that's what you were supposed to be doing on your mission and you know it's what the Church is spreading to the world every day as fast as it can.
If you don't like Dallin H. Oaks proclaiming that only the LDS church has the power to lead one FULLY back to Christ (ie, receive the Celestial Kingdom), oh well. I don't know why you can't accept the fact that God is the one who sets the laws and He WILL toe the line. Did you really want him to say "anything goes"?
To A Patent on Christ | 12:22 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
In addition, Gordon B. Hinckley, now Monson, has all the keys of the kingdom,
and that God only talks for the entire Christendom to His prophets, so that
means that others don't get to hear His voice because Christ doesn't
do that unless it's His chosen one, which Monson is, and the rest not.
The prayers in the temple altar are the "true, order" of prayer, so it's the only way true way to pray, which means that others who don't pray that way must not get heard by God because it's not done in the "true order".
The priesthood is only given to the people of the church, so nobody else has Christ's power except Mormons.
Nobody can baptize, can heal, can bless, can call on His powers unless you're a Mormon.
So, is this enough to show that LDS has patent on Christ? Maybe not.
Wish us the best, and feel sorry for us, because we're doomed to hell, a Christ forsaken people that have no hope, and condemned to fire and brimstone for all eternity.
We need your prayers, because it's the only that works.
The prayers in the temple altar are the "true, order" of prayer, so it's the only way true way to pray, which means that others who don't pray that way must not get heard by God because it's not done in the "true order".
The priesthood is only given to the people of the church, so nobody else has Christ's power except Mormons.
Nobody can baptize, can heal, can bless, can call on His powers unless you're a Mormon.
So, is this enough to show that LDS has patent on Christ? Maybe not.
Wish us the best, and feel sorry for us, because we're doomed to hell, a Christ forsaken people that have no hope, and condemned to fire and brimstone for all eternity.
We need your prayers, because it's the only that works.
Hmmmm....... | 12:23 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
I am a former member and even I can tell that there are some posters here, who
have no doubt NEVER been members of the LDS church.
"Bruce R. McKonkie"????
Give me a break! Stop spouting useless drivel. It makes the rest of us who really ARE heretics look bad!
"Bruce R. McKonkie"????
Give me a break! Stop spouting useless drivel. It makes the rest of us who really ARE heretics look bad!
I'm Absolutely Baffled | 12:26 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
at how many people on this board claim to have "seen the light" and
left the LDS church.
It's your right to choose so have at it.
I will say that I suspect that there are probably more than 1 angry former member here posting a ton of "anti" posts over and over again. It's a big church and I'm sure there are a lot of disgruntled former members and even though I know all is "not well" in Zion, I know the LDS church is not as bad off as a lot of these posters claim it to be.
The Prophet Joseph Smith I have a testimony of. The trendy "anti-crowd", I do not.
You all claim you want to be left alone? See ya.
It's your right to choose so have at it.
I will say that I suspect that there are probably more than 1 angry former member here posting a ton of "anti" posts over and over again. It's a big church and I'm sure there are a lot of disgruntled former members and even though I know all is "not well" in Zion, I know the LDS church is not as bad off as a lot of these posters claim it to be.
The Prophet Joseph Smith I have a testimony of. The trendy "anti-crowd", I do not.
You all claim you want to be left alone? See ya.
Re: To Patent | 12:34 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
I rest my case.
The church does say they have the power and nobody can have it, because they have the patent, so they have the right to give it to whomever, and it's the church, not Christ.
Like I said, what else is new?
You're going to a different direction when it comes to God saying anything goes. Too hard to educate the potato chip believers.
Look, until you can tell me that the Pope can enter the temple and receive the Priesthood tomorrow and still be the Pope to the Catholics, then it's exclusionary. Now, that doesn't mean that I think the Pope ought to, because he is just the same, exclusionary.
Anyways, you need to get to bed my Mormon believer. You're wasting your time accusing me with lies when in fact, Mormons refuse to acknowledge that their Christ suggests to their prophets to be a racist, and to change His doctrines, right when the state was going bankrupt, and right about to face federal prosecution?
So, how can you believe that Christ is so shallow?
You are now telling me that Christ is so low, how rude and sacrilege.
That's very sad!!
The church does say they have the power and nobody can have it, because they have the patent, so they have the right to give it to whomever, and it's the church, not Christ.
Like I said, what else is new?
You're going to a different direction when it comes to God saying anything goes. Too hard to educate the potato chip believers.
Look, until you can tell me that the Pope can enter the temple and receive the Priesthood tomorrow and still be the Pope to the Catholics, then it's exclusionary. Now, that doesn't mean that I think the Pope ought to, because he is just the same, exclusionary.
Anyways, you need to get to bed my Mormon believer. You're wasting your time accusing me with lies when in fact, Mormons refuse to acknowledge that their Christ suggests to their prophets to be a racist, and to change His doctrines, right when the state was going bankrupt, and right about to face federal prosecution?
So, how can you believe that Christ is so shallow?
You are now telling me that Christ is so low, how rude and sacrilege.
That's very sad!!
To: To "Patent" | 12:43 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Who blessed your "authority" to the priesthood?? Take your time as I
want you to be very careful in answering and answer it in honesty. Let me know
what you find in your journey as I am sure it will be interesting.
To Flip Flopping Church believer | 12:50 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
"Why are you so convinced the Church is no longer true just because they
receive money in the form of tithing, etc or they run (separately from the
Church) businesses. I GUARANTEE that not one penny of their businesses go to the
Church or vice versa".
Strange as to how you came up with that. I said it's the corporation, and Christ is not in the business of making money and doing business on this earth.
So, you believe that Christ is a poor God and needs to have businesses running here on earth?
C'mon, I shouldn't have joined the church, let alone serve a mission. I wished that I knew people like you a long time ago, prior to having wasted so much of my life in beliefs like this, and especially what hurts me is becoming so indoctrinated that I was having to spread these lies to others for 2 whole years.
What do you want to guarantee with? Because your ignorance really have gotten worse.
Look, continue to believe in the potato chip if you wish, but the church has been investing their monies for a very long time already, and yes, it's for the church.
Strange as to how you came up with that. I said it's the corporation, and Christ is not in the business of making money and doing business on this earth.
So, you believe that Christ is a poor God and needs to have businesses running here on earth?
C'mon, I shouldn't have joined the church, let alone serve a mission. I wished that I knew people like you a long time ago, prior to having wasted so much of my life in beliefs like this, and especially what hurts me is becoming so indoctrinated that I was having to spread these lies to others for 2 whole years.
What do you want to guarantee with? Because your ignorance really have gotten worse.
Look, continue to believe in the potato chip if you wish, but the church has been investing their monies for a very long time already, and yes, it's for the church.
Would You Like A Sign? | 12:46 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
OK, here it is.
(Please know that I mean no disrespect towards those who have decided to leave, but the scriptures are painfully clear about those who leave the true faith and choose to never come back)
Alma 24:30 -
"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things".
Please, please don't do this.
So you weren't treated well by someone in the church. Please forgive them. No one is perfect. So you don't understand everything doctrinally. In time we all will. So your faith is being tried. That is a main part of life, to walk by faith and not by perfect knowledge. So you can't obey every commandment right now. Who can? What looks good today often is not.
The Lord can and WILL get you through this if you really want Him to. He did for me when I doubted too....
(Please know that I mean no disrespect towards those who have decided to leave, but the scriptures are painfully clear about those who leave the true faith and choose to never come back)
Alma 24:30 -
"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things".
Please, please don't do this.
So you weren't treated well by someone in the church. Please forgive them. No one is perfect. So you don't understand everything doctrinally. In time we all will. So your faith is being tried. That is a main part of life, to walk by faith and not by perfect knowledge. So you can't obey every commandment right now. Who can? What looks good today often is not.
The Lord can and WILL get you through this if you really want Him to. He did for me when I doubted too....
To Absolutely Baffled | 1:05 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
"You all claim you want to be left alone? See ya".
Wait, don't leave without you telling that to the big brass will ya? You're only a peeon, not an iota of power or influence, so you're leaving us Christ forsaken people won't do much at all. Why don't you really help us by not just saying see ya, but actually put it into real action, something that's really rare in the church to help the non-Mormons with something other than a chin and a nose dugged up.
So, for those who believes in the doctrines of Mormonism, then I really feel sorry deep in my heart that you had to put Christ down so low, that He is nothing more then the puppet of man's decidedly active racism and changing of doctrines from commandment, then to sin, making Christ a flip flopper, which truly makes Him nothing more than a Savior that had to conform to Mormon false doctrines.
Sad that the Savior is made to be such a piece of garbage by Mormons, professing by words of their devotion, but contradictory in it's practice.
You are just a sounding trumpet and tingling cymbals.
To all flip floppers | 1:17 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Ignorance believes in something that is intangible. What is tangible and is
proven is the church has grown into a business and has assets that rival many
fortune 100 companies. Growing this into a corporation is something Joe Smith
can be proud of, as far as a religion�not so much.
Please Don't Trash My Savior | 1:17 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
There are many that believes Mormonism so much that they haven't stopped to
think that their beliefs includes the acceptance of doctrines that God
can't make up His mind, and are short sighted, by giving His people
commandments, then later, He makes the very same commandment a gross sin, once
He found out that His church is dying and going bankrupt and about to be
prosecuted by the federal government. It's too convenient isn't it?
Plus, that God is a racist God, teaching His followers that men does not suffer the sins of Adam, but they do suffer then sins of Cain, hence are punished accordingly, and did not deserve His priesthood blessings until 1978. All not from what they've done, but by what Cain had done.
This version of God and Christ of yours is so different and so delusional and degrading, to the point that it's absolutely sacrilege.
Please, don't trash my Savior, I beg of you.
It's obvious that we worship different Gods.
I know that my Savior is not a racist, and don't change their minds, and since the church's God did change, withheld promises because of Cain, it's definitely not God
Plus, that God is a racist God, teaching His followers that men does not suffer the sins of Adam, but they do suffer then sins of Cain, hence are punished accordingly, and did not deserve His priesthood blessings until 1978. All not from what they've done, but by what Cain had done.
This version of God and Christ of yours is so different and so delusional and degrading, to the point that it's absolutely sacrilege.
Please, don't trash my Savior, I beg of you.
It's obvious that we worship different Gods.
I know that my Savior is not a racist, and don't change their minds, and since the church's God did change, withheld promises because of Cain, it's definitely not God
Show True Colors | 1:35 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
All you Mormons who are upset over those who don't believe anymore,
I'd challenge you to show your true colors once and for all.
Reveal yourselves in all its glory, and show us your anger, your bitterness, your characters that the true church has made you to be. We'd like to know, so, don't hold back and pretend anymore. We know that you would like to pour out who you think we are, and how virile you feel towards us.
Come out, and don't hide anymore.
Bring us your true selves, and show us your real attitudes.
Reveal yourselves in all its glory, and show us your anger, your bitterness, your characters that the true church has made you to be. We'd like to know, so, don't hold back and pretend anymore. We know that you would like to pour out who you think we are, and how virile you feel towards us.
Come out, and don't hide anymore.
Bring us your true selves, and show us your real attitudes.
What is all this | 1:30 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
A little new but have been interested in the conversation and enjoy the
bantering. Now what in the heck is Alma 24:30. Sounds like it might be a bit of
a new age thing but just wondering? I hope I enjoyed my time in Utah and
Colorado and am looking forward to getting back to the TX where religion is not
that heated.
Take Care'
Take Care'
benji | 3:52 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
"I hope I enjoyed my time in Utah and Colorado and am looking forward to
getting back to the TX where religion is not that heated."
Best comment ever!
Best comment ever!
KC Fan | 5:09 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
If the Book of Mormon was inspired, then this is His church, right? And Joseph
Smith was His prophet. Doesn't it all come down to that?
If you decide that the Book of Mormon is true, then you owe it to yourself to be patient with unanswered questions and the occassional odd or insensitive person you meet in your ward.
Answers generally come with time. As for lingering questions, are they so important that they outweigh everything else?
As for the annoying ward members -- well, annoying people are part of life, not just church membership.
Incidentally, the vocal bitterness of some who have left the Church is instructive, isn't it?
If you decide that the Book of Mormon is true, then you owe it to yourself to be patient with unanswered questions and the occassional odd or insensitive person you meet in your ward.
Answers generally come with time. As for lingering questions, are they so important that they outweigh everything else?
As for the annoying ward members -- well, annoying people are part of life, not just church membership.
Incidentally, the vocal bitterness of some who have left the Church is instructive, isn't it?
Jim Huston | 6:13 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
I posted here earlier. There are a couple of people here challenging people who
have left to "show our true colors." I was a successful missionary in
Brazil. I have had numerous Ward and Stake callings and was a temple
officiator. I would say I was very tied in to the Mormon Church. I was a
convert at age 8 and was faithful until age 48. When I left I was angry for
being lied to. Now, four years later, I simply feel pity for people who
continue to accept the deception. People who feel that the warm fuzzy feeling
trumps reality and truth. I have no fear of the retribution of God moving
forward. Can you say the same?
Anonymous | 8:40 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
The back-and-forth on this board has become ridiculous. I'll summarize:
Former Mormons: Active Latter-day Saints are uncaring hypocrites who would willingly believe the church's lies.
Current Mormons: This isn't true. This is Christ's church. You have only met bad people. Besides, you probably left the church because you can't live the commandments.
Former Mormons: This isn't true. I have reasonable reasons for leaving. You must be one of those hypocrites.
If both groups got over themselves and realized that there are honest people and creeps among both active and inactive LDS, we could have meaningful dialogue and all of us could become closer to Christ.
I love the church, and I love Jesus Christ. Retention, as President Hinckley said so many times, is about first loving Christ and then loving our neighbors. I have not yet perfected this charge, but I am trying. I wish all people, especially both active and inactive LDS, would also try with me. We'd be much better friends and people as a result.
Former Mormons: Active Latter-day Saints are uncaring hypocrites who would willingly believe the church's lies.
Current Mormons: This isn't true. This is Christ's church. You have only met bad people. Besides, you probably left the church because you can't live the commandments.
Former Mormons: This isn't true. I have reasonable reasons for leaving. You must be one of those hypocrites.
If both groups got over themselves and realized that there are honest people and creeps among both active and inactive LDS, we could have meaningful dialogue and all of us could become closer to Christ.
I love the church, and I love Jesus Christ. Retention, as President Hinckley said so many times, is about first loving Christ and then loving our neighbors. I have not yet perfected this charge, but I am trying. I wish all people, especially both active and inactive LDS, would also try with me. We'd be much better friends and people as a result.
I concur | 9:19 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
One thing that we forget, is that man is a human first, and a member of the
church or any other organization second. How many people get married and then
quit? People join because of the spirit that they felt and leave because they
no longer feel it, no matter what they may be apart of in life. Those members
who castigate or shun others because of their perceived standings in life, in
reality do not have a true testimony of gospel regardless of what level they may
serve in the church.
Come on People!! | 9:32 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008
Let's all settle down and get real. There are millions of very Christlike
and loving people in the Church who sincerely believe the LDS Church to be the
Lord's true Church with all their heart. And there are millions of very
Christlike and loving people who sincerely do not believe that whether they came
to that belief as a member or investigator. It seems to me that the years of
attempted public relations and understanding under the former Prophet are for
naught. Is it the Romney wounds? It seems as if the divides, the hate, and the
judgments from both sides are as alive and strong as ever. I am personally
unable to accept the Church as the only true Church largely because of early
doctrine and history. Many have come to the same conclusion. I love and respect
those who hold strong to their testimony and ask that you simply love and
respect my testimony (though unlike yours) as well.
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- Palin signs books, chats with fans
- Few details on missing W.V. mom
- Jazz fall apart late at L.A.
- Psychologist: Mitchell schizophrenic
- Panel passes BCS playoff bill
- I-15 expansion barreling south
- Mutated version of H1N1 found
- Utes crash the glass to get big win
- Letters: Global warming a lie
250 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl206
- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall192
- Cougars going back to Vegas150
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil148
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax141
- Palin signs books, chats with fans140
- Max Hall wants to look ahead123
- Revive full food tax?104
- Panel passes BCS playoff bill101
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Kealia, you should have REALLY represented the Hawaiians by committing to...
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I was there the other night and it was mentioned that 40 something residents...
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First Max Hall now Brandt Andersen, what is becoming of Utah Valley?
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Seems to me that the lesson should address the gays who, after throwing their...
FYI to those who don't know- Teachers and state employees did take pay cuts...
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