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New Harmony: Current focus concentrates on retaining LDS members

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It's not that I wasn't treated | 10:12 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Well...although I know this is an issue with some people. Wake up to reality! Many people on this board (and yes, there are many people not just "one posting over and over again" as someone said above. It's interesting the way the mind works. There are people reading this and thinking that "it just can't be happening", but it is! I left because common sense, research and reality came to me. Hope it does to you too.

Ernest T. Bass | 10:15 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

As other have already mentioned their experiences, mine are similar. Life-long activity, mission, Temple marriage.....and I've come to realize that it is false advertising, it's just not what they claim it is.
Still active for the time being, until the kids have grown.

Look and you will see | 11:12 a.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Don't worry people! There are many people in the church who are active and don't believe the church is true. They just go to keep their families happy. You would be surprised at the members who will open up their true thoughts when they feel they are around someone who won't condemn them. Lift the wool from thine eyes.

Comments continue below

Let it all out **** | 12:00 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I agree, getting out the anger from our hearts from whatever treatment or lack thereof that we got as members of the church or not is a good thing.
Keeping pain buried in our heart for any reason is damaging to the spirit and to the physical body, and this is all scientifically proven.

Therefore, let go, get it all out, both Mormons and non-Mormons, after all, this is just a stupid forum, but getting it out of you can begin a life of peace, unburdened by anger that's holding down the potential of joy. Mormons can get their hatred towards those who left, and those who left can throw venom at the church, either positions can only do better after getting all pain and gunk out of the soul.

This state deals with pain using anti depressants, and it leads the country, and there must be a reason for that. I think that this state holds pain too much inside, and won't let go. I must say that I am guilty of that, at times, something brings me back to thoughts that angers me as to my own betrayed feelings.

Let it all out, and then feel the peace.

Mahonri | 1:01 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

We joined the LDS Church after hearing Thomas Monson speak years ago. Some time later a job transfer took us to Utah. Time in Richfield, Provo, SLC, Sandy and Ogden did it. We saw LDS up close and personal in a half dozen wards and no longer have much to do with the Church at all. The teachings are one thing but the truth of meeting the members and living where the church is 'strong' put us off completely. "Come back"... to what? Have these people and leaders changed?

To Mahonri | 4:31 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Welcome to Utah bro!

Everyone I've ever known that came from outside of Utah discovers this for themselves also. Your experience is not at all unusual, and it's to be expected, once you get close to the source of the smoke, you'll often see fire burning.

So, don't be surprised if anybody outside of Utah is reading any of this, because it's a rude awakening even for strong Mormons who continue to be active.

What's sad is, once you're here long enough, while I was still a Mormon, I only noticed way later that I've become just like them. I didn't even know it was happening, until my family who are not Mormons and lives way away from Utah, questioned me as to how much I've changed and wondered as to what happened to me in Utah.

Nothing happened, what are you talking about, was my reply.

Now, I've left the church, my old self have begun to return, and my family noticed a huge improvement in my marriage and in my attitude.

I didn't notice at all that I had changed for the worse, requiring an outsider to point it out to me.

I'm lucky.

Most are not.

Robert Wilcox (Sydney,Australia) | 5:01 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

After 26 yrs of dedicated service, temple marriage, 7 children (2 grand children), and having been employed by the church I had a breakdown and made choices that resulted in excommunication.

Now 18mths later after being shunned by who I thought were good strong friends and leaders I have NEVER had a visit from those who I expected would support and help; if only in the early stages I wandered from the "path" I may have made the long journey back. That journey looks more and more distant as time passes.

I still have a testimony of all that I know to be true and very much miss my former life, I just think that if I had compassion and assistance I may have returned to the "fold". Sadly for me and particulary for my former eternal companion, my children there has been a breakdown in the "system" and they will suffer in the long run. I know I ultimately am responsible and will be accountable at the judgement bar.

While at my disiplinary council I pleaded with the High Council that they not forget those who fall by the wayside, but still no visits.

To Robert Wilcox | 5:52 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

It's easier to remove yourselves from the church, then they chase you to come back, then to have them remove you and you hoping to be taken back.

Tom Cruise on Oprah said, when he was still little his family was poor and couldn't afford even to buy shoes at the time when he needed new shoes.

Now that he is rich, Nike gives him brand new very expensive shoes that he didn't even ask for. He thought it was weird how the world works. You can't have them when you need it and can't afford them, but then they give it to you when you don't need them and can afford them.

The church works the same way.

They want you when you don't need them, and they chase you over and over.

But for those who need them, they dump you like a piece of rotten garbage. It seemed that it happened to you just as it has always been happening.

I left because I didn't need them anymore. They haven't let go of me yet, and wanting and trying to get me back. They were so unhappy when I asked for my name to be removed.

To Wonderful Robert | 5:54 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I got tears as I read your post. Please remember you are a good person. I can just see it and hear it in your words. I was a member of the church for 45 years. About 20 years ago I started realizing that something was not right, but I wanted to continue for my family and didn't want the hurt that would surely come from me leaving. I waited until my children were older and then left about two and a half years ago. There have been some hurtful times, but I am now becoming whole. My heart aches for you and others when I hear things like "I will be responsible". You are good and you have been watched over by the universal truth. You are loved and you and your family can become whole again.
I'm not saying that any people or organization is bad. I am saying that whenever you hear about the "only truth" and that you must do "such and such" to "get to heaven" or be with God, you may have been deceived. We cannot be bitter....we can just move on and help others to see.
God Bless

Naha Yazzie | 6:20 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I have resisted posting for several days. My heart aches for the pain, anger, and disappointment that I read from multiple people.

I worship and attend services in a small branch of the LDS Church on the Navajo reservation. In my community many brothers and many sisters are struggling to hang onto the iron rod.

I think I have read through the multiple postings because of the understanding and empathy it has helped me feel. I love my brother and sister and long for their spiritual strength and well being. Although I do not enjoy your pain, I feel grateful for your insight and willingness to share.

I hope I can be a better neighbor and loving brother as I bond with others who probably won't see as I do. Maybe I can understand them more accurately now.

I have re-read Lehi's vision, the tree of life. I always wondered why those who partook of the fruit and the light wandered off. And there were alot. Perhaps I understand a little better.

I wish you well.

b d williams | 7:38 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I'l bet that the so called "christian evangetist" like reading these posts to see us tear each other apart. They watch every thing we do to use against us and those who are investigating the church.

wow my brother | 7:44 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

I am glad I made the decision to tell it like it is long ago. I had seen other litterally walk in front of trucks, drink themselves to death, and just commit suicide. I too was headed down that route as I had done everything in the church but if it had not been for a few good members along with my parents I would have disapeared in dispare. I found my salvation in my culture and different religion which teaches it is ok not to be perfect. I learned that to love one's self is all that matters...I commune and feel more closer to the creator in nature than I ever did in a man made building..I pray not to hate those that shun me who are members and act like they are superior as I know they struggle along this journey also. I am more at peace now but I really think those good members who allow me to be me..the hurt has disapated and I love all mankind, the two legged and four legged , so the anger is gone. Your prayers did help as I chose a different path on this journey, thanks.

No more gloom | 8:40 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

It would be much easier to be a member of the church if a person didn't feel the cold spirit of some of the members every Sunday. It is not easy to go to church when everyone seems so unhappy and unfriendly. I am tired of the backbiting as well. So... I am planning on leaving very soon. I am tired of wasting my time on a cold LDS society. I am now looking away from them for a peace of mind. I know it is waiting. I will be happy. I think I can stand up now stongly against their COLD-SHOUDLERS towards me when I do leave.

Not Making Sense | 10:40 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

Former members say "leave us alone" and so you honor their request and say "see ya" and they get angry and say they've been coldly rebuffed.

Many say "no one cared about me" and literally dozens of faithful LDS members shared their testimony as well as their ENCOURAGEMENT with those who have left but instead of seeing the thoughtfulness and consideration of members they still agitate over the rudeness of "Mormons".

I think I've read every single of the 463 posts in the last few days and I can only remember one comment by an LDS member that might have been rude and that was by a member who essentially said "if you don't like Utah and Mormon culture, leave". You want to talk about "respect for the other side", while not every former LDS post has been antagonistic, there are MANY of their posts that have been. "Show True Colors" essentially said if you're active LDS then you "must reveal yourself in all your anger and bitterness". Nice.

Alma 24:30 WILL be the general vector of those who once had the Spirit illuminate their soul but left. This isn't said out of spite, but concern.

Please, choose wisely.

A Good Home Teacher | 10:56 p.m. Feb. 17, 2008

About 10 years ago I was struck by the story in The Book of Mormon in which Captain Moroni writes to the Chief Judge, Pahoran, and complains about the government not supporting the nation's army which had suffered and fought much for the safety of their country.

Captain Moroni made it EXTREMELY clear that much of the continued sufferings of his faithful soldiers was caused by the slothfulness and uncharitable attitudes and actions by those who were supposed to support them, ie, the government and the country as a whole. You want to read about "responsibility" to your fellow man, go read that scathing sermon in Alma chapter 60.

So what's my point? After reading all these posts, slothful and uncaring Latter-day Saint Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers, while they obviously can't make decisions for others, bear some of the guilt in the failures of our brothers and sisters to maintain their testimonies of and love for Christ. Have we really strengthened our brothers and sisters as well as we could have? Really?

I don't think, as "faithful" members, we've done as well as we need to....

OK......Pt. 1 | 12:22 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Whatï¿½s to be confused about? Obviously, we have been talking about different types of inactive members:

Those who left solely because they have been offended, still believe the doctrines. They express unhappiness without the Church and wish to feel like they belong. These people would probably benefit from a little extra kindness from ward members, and SHOULD accept your offer and return to Church if they truly believe the teachings and can find themselves a productive member of the ward again. It is difficult to return, so when you see a new face, why not take a minute and say hello? I can tell you that parishioners of other churches are very good at making sure visitors do not walk in and out of services without anyone saying a kind word to them.

There may be some who just do not want to live the Mormon Church teachings and will reject your efforts. That is their choice. It is not necessary to harass them to change their viewpoint. In some cases, you might be tempted to judge and pity them, believing your testimony to be superior. Before you succumb to this remember that not everyone shares your viewpoint.

OK.......Pt 2 | 12:29 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Surprisingly enough, people with different beliefs can share common interests. Happens all the time outside of Utah.

But, before you believe that all inactiveï¿½s are either easily offended or weak, understand that there are many, who have studied diligently for YEARS, documentative, hard evidence that have led to the conclusion that the Church is hardly what it purports to be. Many of us are BIC, and reconciling several family generations of an ingrained belief system is not something that is undertaken lightly or quickly; so it is arrogant to suggest that we have ï¿½not done enoughï¿½ to uphold the faith to satisfy you. Imagine for a minute if your entire belief system was shattered before your eyes. It is pretty devastating at first, and yes, feeling betrayed can sometimes cause people to express anger. Some have personal reasons (usually family) that keep them going to church despite their disbelief, and others feel better if they leave and follow their own path of truth.

OK......Pt 3 | 12:31 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I guess if anything is to be learned here, it is to understand that:

1. People leave the church or become inactive for a variety of reasons, and

2. You might have some luck with the ones that still believe and want to belong, but overly aggressive ï¿½fellowshippingï¿½ has a very negative effect if the subject neither shares your belief nor has a desire to attend your church.

JMO, but it shouldn't be too hard to tell the difference.

Please choose wisely | 6:06 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I did and not out of fear!

Some of us don't want | 10:56 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

To complain and get sympathy....some of us want to help others in our same situation. I personally have a love for many people in the church. This is not because of the religion, but because of them. Some of them are under a burden that can be released. We are good people because of who we are inside, and not some man made religion. Yes, it's up to everyone to decide if a religion is "man made" or really of God. We have made our decision and it is our right, but we want to help others that don't realize this. There are many who don't know...some of us can help.

Kitty | 11:14 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I was going to write something about my own inactivity but it looks like everyone has done a pretty good job on summing things up on here. A few of us out here wonï¿½t add anything new to a blog that says everything. I donï¿½t want to sound like a broken violin.

Thanks Kitty | 1:02 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Your comments add so much to this discussion. We can now end the discussion as no more comments are needed beyond yours.

Open Your Heart | 1:20 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

If leaders of the LDS church are reading this, I hope you are listening. Let's assume that at it's core, the Priesthood and authority are true. We'll take that as our supposition.

Now listen and read with your heart. The vile, judgemental, clannish, backbiting, gossiping, dogmatic, ignoring, shunning, competitiveness, pressuring, intimidation, and arrogance etc. of many members exhibited in the comments here is very telling.

Let's suppose that a certain store has the best product of it's kind that is available anywhere. Suppose people go into the store in search of that product. If the store workers act in the manner described above, few shoppers will ever return, no mater what the quality of the treasured product.

Some members are very Christlike. In my view, the majority are not. I don't know if I would blame them. The priorities are set at the top. The focus is being set in a corporate bean counter mindset. Let's get back to families, love, community.

And leaders, if you are listening, please ask those that value your words to stop tailgating.

Thanks Kitty | 1:24 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Where's Doc and Festus?

I'm Confused With The Truth | 5:08 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I have a friend, he was my missionary colleague, and he was even the assistant to the mission president.

When he went home, we lived in the same stake, and he was called in the Bishopric.

He discussed as to how happy he is paying tithing, and much more then the 10% required. He paid 30% or even more at times, telling me that it's for the Lord and that he is happy to do it.

This man are not at all of large means, on the contrary, within months he was out of a job and had to go on social security to pay for his wife and children's living. He had a hard time finding work, because he wasn't much skilled in any trade.

So, what is it that the truth that the LDS church requires that members pay tithing, and yet, the Lord continues to ignore those who paid 30% or more. The church didn't help this guy and his family find a job, by the way.

There are so much confusion as to what the real truth about paying tithing to the LDS church and still not have promises made to come true.

russ | 5:51 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Do Mormons really equate tithing to being blessed over other human beings? Let's just say that that can't be true. It is too illogical, and insulting to God. Do you really think that the Lord is hard up for cash and figures he will hand out a few blessings for money? What about bad and evil people who do really well and live in the big house on the hill, or up near Skyline High? Not fair, not fair Lord.

Wait a minute. Didn't the Catholic Church do that money for gain thing some time ago? That, and other things, is what got the Protestant Reformation going.

On occasion, when i am totally bored, I watch the religious shows on tv and the lady who promises rewards for giving has the same game going on. And she is rich.

Barnum and Bailey had it right. There is one born every minute.

a sick, sick, group | 5:54 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

There are only two ways to control people -
Guilt and Fear.

In this case, those who have left the group are made to feel guilty (so the perpetrators think)
Then after a time, those same people are now told they should be afraid of losing their souls because they left the group.

Sick, sick, sick people remain.

there they go again | 6:48 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

the self righteous casting stones in the name of the lord. he knows all that's all. funny how a people can send their children all over the world only to pop up on this blog saying some of the most arrogant things to put others down. Pride does preceed the fall.

Utah | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

if they can't taze you , they try to in another way. I liked them better when they had the hand carts at least they gave grace.

Me thinks | 7:08 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

some of you came directly off the immigration blogs as you have a hard time following your leaders.

Redemtion | 7:32 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

For those whose lives have been harmed who do they sue.

The devils kids | 7:42 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Inactives are nothing but evil people!

SAD AMERICAN IDOL | 9:21 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

You know, we are American Idol fans, and watch a lot of those who seemed so proud of their voice and its greatness, when the truth of the matter is that they not only can't sing, it's actually very sad that the beauty of the songs they sang does not even resemble the beautiful songs they were, and are absolutely painful to listen to.

What's amazing is that they are absolutely clueless as to how untalented they are. In fact, even lacking of talent would actually be better, so they're below not having any talent. Many are so hurt and even arrogant when told the truth as to the "gift" they think they have.

This can be compared to faiths of all religion, whereas, the beauty of Christ's love, teaching and sacrifice, have been totally annihilated by these poorly talented Christians, who thinks they are the biggest gift to mankind.

It turned out, no matter how beautiful the truths maybe, the way they "sing" that truth no longer makes that truth even remotely resemble it's original purpose.

I see so many Mormons, and other Christians alike, who are just awful singers but they're not aware of it in the slightest

SAD AMERICAN IDOL 2 | 9:37 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Therefore, so many beautiful songs are only as good as the singer is able to make it, which means, a beautiful song sung by a beautiful singer will make beautiful music. But a beautiful song sung by an excruciatingly painful to be heard singer will nevertheless make the song sound awful, even though it wasn't the song that's the problem.

Yet, a beautiful singer can make a not so beautiful song, into something special, not because of the song, but because of the singer's heartfelt voice whose sound is enough to make one appreciate the music.

So many Christians, Mormons, etc, who heavily relies upon the beautiful songs they'll be singing, thinking that will surely be the key to make beautiful music, and because of the great song, their voice will surely also become beautiful.

The truth is that, they're singing the song that no longer shows its beauty, due to the awful sounds their voice is making.

So, what's the "true" church for, or "true" gospel for, as beautiful as it may be, when, you, the singer are as awful as can be. That truth no longer stands as beautiful, due to those, who don't live it beautifully.

SAD AMERICAN IDOL 3 | 9:48 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

Only Christ can help you sing the songs of Heaven. And only He can make your voice beautiful.

Don't think for one moment that, just because you might be singing His songs, that your voice become anywhere near beautiful.

But a lot of people think otherwise.

So much arrogance of the great song is being spoken of, "the gospel", that they know how to sing the song Christ wrote, yet, if only they know how much that they sounded like those American Idol wannabees, who's only talents exists in their minds, but not in the real world.

What's about those people on the show, and it includes the Mormons and others alike, is not that they don't have talent, it's that they don't know, they don't have talent. So they walk away still with their dreams of making it big in the world as a singer, much as the Mormons and others alike dreams walk away still with their dreams of making it big with God as a believer.

Jeff S | 11:30 p.m. Feb. 18, 2008

As an inactive member of the LDS Church this article caught my attention. But after reading through 480 or so comments I donï¿½t have much hope for a life preserver. I feel the gulf between me and active members is getting wider.

Those who have received a spiritual confirmation that the LDS Church is true should be grateful. But those of us who have never had this experience are not understood or believed. The comment made on 11:31 P.M. Feb 16 shows this. The writer questions the diligence and honesty of us who have not received an answer, and states, ï¿½Come on guys, be honest. You didnï¿½t REALLY do all these things, [be obedient, study, fast, etc.] did you?ï¿½ Yes - I have been honest, sincere, studious, and diligent in my search. No, I have not received an answer. That is impossible for many LDS to accept. They will say it is our fault because we arenï¿½t sincere. Well, we arenï¿½t understood.

Re: Leave the church | 7:42 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

Reading the posts here and am curious as to the Bible section that talks about disobedient children. Can you reference me that section??

John Lambert | 9:41 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

I will not shurk from speaking the truth just because people say mean and dishonest things about me for doing it.
What the people who say "The Church Needs to face up to its history" really mean is "The church needs to remove the Book of Mormon and miracles from the realm of the real, physical, knowable world."
These people would lead us down the same path as the early Christian Church. They would lead us down the same path as the RLDS church where pastors who speak boldly about the truth of the Book of Mormon are removed from the ministry.
Anyone who thinks the General Authorities fight open inquirery into the history of the church obviously did not watch the interview with Marlin K. Jensen on his response to the PBS special on the Mormons. He admitted that he would have done things differently if he had made it, but he called it respecttful and gave no indication that he would stop a similar production having full access to the resources on church history in the future.
Faith is the key.

John Lambert | 10:31 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

This is Re:re:Comfortable and Cool
His point was that the Doctrine and Covenants says that the Word of Wisdom is not a commandment. However he fails to realize that Heber J. Grant recieved revelation that the word of wisdom was now to be a commandment. It had actually been a gradual build up, but when Heber J. Grant was president of the church living the word of wisdom was openly sustained in general conference as a commandment on the church.
You might as well gripe about the fact we allow members to eat pork and many other things that were banned at one point. God does not change but men change, and he adapts his word to the abilities of those who are alive at present.

John Lambert | 10:43 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

It is interesting how people who seem to talk so heavily of not being judgemental, are so quick to denonce me as an "Angry Mormon".
Yes, I do at times get overly worked up. However I try to show love and toleration. It is good to have a strong feeling in favor of things, and probably at times I get too carried away.
It really bugs me when people are sacriligious in there attitudes towards things. It also bugs me when people on one hand argue the church should change its basic tenants and then get mad at the church for excommunicating them.
The church has a duty to protect the purity of doctrine and this means removing members who are fighting it. The church is meant to reflect the word of God, not the wisdom of men. People who strive to change the church so it reflects the wisdom of men need to be removed before they cause more damage in the body. If a church can not control its own membership than what pwoer does it have?

John Lambert | 10:47 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

I think many people have misinterpreted my statement that there needs to be more excommunications and that we need another 1850s style reformation. These comments were brought on by the people who constantly attack Joseph Smith, and argue against the historical reality of the Book of Mormon. The reality of revelation is inportant, and people who argue against it are arguing against the central principals of the church.
First off, the church has at times purged its rolls. After massive baptisms in the early 1960s in Britain where many people went inactive almost immediately, a reevaluation was done and those whose baptism was not seen to have been understood by the participant were removed from the rolls.
I also knew a guy who while on his mission in Germany oversaw the removal of hundreds of people from the church rolls all at once. On another note, I knew a guy who when he moved in with his daughter they requested the transfer of his records but got a response that he was dead.

John Lambert | 10:53 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

To: Maybe this will help
Who are we to question the words of the prophet. The Lord has revealed that members should not get tattoos. I for one will not say "The church should downplay this teaching".
The mainline protestant churchs have tried to downplay unpopular teachings, and have ended up lossing members in droves.
The way to keep the church strong is to nourish people by the good word of God. Seeking the truth in the scriptures is the key.

John Lambert | 11:03 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

Re:Trying to be helpful,
I think many people, and you seem to be in this category, forget that the church does not have a paid clergy. Where other churchs have people who are paid to be clergy, bishops have to have anopther job at the same time.
I am not saying that bishops could not do better, but we have to remeber they have lots of demands on their time.
My Dad used to hometeach someone who was in prison. On the other hand the comment about the person being a "jail bird" gave me the inpression that in the church we could be less judgemental of people who are in prison.
I think we forget that one of the things that Jesus said of those who cared for him was "I was in prison and you came unto me".

John Lambert | 11:23 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

As I said before, I fully stand behind the church excommunicating critics. I fully support the excomunication of Paul Toscano. He had no faith in the church and was willing to mock its leaders. I support the excomunication of Michael Quinn. Maxine Hanks and Lavina Fielding Anderson. I think it is even a greater outrage that she has began work on claiming the church unfairly disciplines people. The Mormon Allieance goes against the basic notion of religion as revealed from God. The church needs to keep doctrine pure.

To John Lambert | 11:45 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

It's interesting that you stated that the church has to keep control of it's members, yet, the church changes it's principles because the "Lord" realizes that He needs to adapt His words to the abilities of man, which is really interesting to think that God changes just to fit man, and He didn't even see it coming.

If only that one recognizes that the changes of principles of God, is absolutely impossible, since it's not God that has to change to man's weakness, but man's weakness needs to change to God's demands.

So, by the virtue that the LDS church changes, how many changes does it need to happen that will negate the perceived truth to be actually nothing but false teachings?

It's like this, how many robberies does it take to consider the robber as a criminal?

How many times does it need to consider a man to be a child molester?

My answer and it's the only answer, is, ONE time.

We can't patronize the man and say things like, oh, well, he really didn't mean to do it, and it's a mistake and the sin will be upon his head, anyways.

John Lambert | 11:47 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

To Feb. 15th, 8:55
Thankyou for your kind compliments. I feel a lot better now having read them.
I think we should reach out to all of God's children and help them to come unto Christ. They can only come unto Christ through the ordinances of the gospel. I try to spread the church because I love others.
However, I also see that by some people's standards I am the one being judgemental with this line, believing that the gospel can help others, and those who just want people off the records of the church are the ones who are being open minded.
People's comments are usually specific responses. However I support Johnston's right to write his religious views, and do not think it is in good taste to call him overbearing and judgemental because he believes that sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ will benefit others.
There is real judgementalism, but Johnston does not show it.

To John Lambert | 11:49 a.m. Feb. 20, 2008

The problem is, whatever sin and punishment falls on the perpetrator, the damage is done, and the child is still screwed up, no thanks to the molester.

I believe with all my heart that the principles taught in the LDS church that God can't lead you astray is absolutely correct, but they don't mention that damages caused by man, God will let it happen, and as much as the teenager who killed 4 members of his family due to drunk driving, well, the teen is in prison, so the punishment is upon his head, but the surviving family still lost their mom, wife, brother and sister.

So, I asked myself, is it OK for the mistakes of men leading the church, since it won't fall upon my head, only his. Well, I don't know about you, but unfortunately, other men's mistakes also fall upon your head, and you suffer just as much, if not more.

It took me a long time to overcome that indoctrination from my head, noticing that their mistakes from their control of me, does me damage also.

So, we patronize men so much, because we're lacking the strength inside ourselves to listen to God's truth.

John Lambert | 12:01 p.m. Feb. 20, 2008

In defense of Orson and others:
These people have constantly said "In there experience". I would have to say I have met people who have left the church because they felt it was untrue, but have met at leastv as many people who left because they were offended by something or other. Some people it is hard to say what the line is.
Orson at least, did not say that no one leaves the church because they feel it is untrue. He said it was in his expierience. Maybe he should meet more people, or maybe he is on to something. Just because we say people at times, even most times, do things out of one reason does not mean we deney that people can do things for other reasons.
It seems that the only people who assert absolutely that one cause motivates all action is those who left the church because they felt it was untrue. However not all people who do not show up to church feel the church is untrue, and it is clear there are people who have been offended.

To John Lambert | 12:08 p.m. Feb. 20, 2008

We honor men praise men because we think they are superior to us because they have the power of God upon them and God speaks to them.

If you only know that God speaks to you directly and incessantly. And there are times when that voice goes directly against the teachings of "God" that came from His prophets. So, you have to chose, and that choice could very well go against what you have believed all the years of your life, or at least a lot of years of your life.

But truth will smash falsehoods time and again, and when I asked God which voice is the truth, the answer came to a simple answer:

"DON'T YOU KNOW ME ALREADY?

DO I, AS GOD, CHANGE MY LAWS FOR THE LAWS OF MAN? DO I, AS GOD CHANGE THIS LAW TO THAT?

AM I NOT ABLE TO SEE THE BEGINNING TO THE END?

IF I CHANGE THINGS, THAT MEANS THAT I AM NOT ABLE TO SEE ALL AND COMPREHEND ALL, SO, IS THIS THE GOD YOU BELIEVE IN, WHERE I AM NOT OMNIPOTENT?

WHAT SAY YE THAT I AM?

My answer is, nay, Lord, thou art the omnipotent God.

John Lambert | 12:16 p.m. Feb. 20, 2008

I just have to respond to the line "non-white races recieving the priesthood". It was only ever blacks who were excluded from the priesthood during this dispensation.
Native Americans, Asians, Polynesians, Micronesians, Melanesians and other non-black races were always allowed to be ordained to the priesthood.

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