Deseret News | Panel asks to raise teachers' pay again

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Panel asks to raise teachers' pay again

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donald | 12:51 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

with regard to Simon Says' comment ...What sort of qualifications do other lesser paid government employees have? Most full-time employees at DCFS, ORS, DWR and DWS have Bachelor degrees. I have a Master's degree. My pay after 16 years of employment is almost $36,000. I chose to work where I am and I understand the ramfications. I have low pay but fairly decent benefits, a trade-off. However in the 16 years of employment, I only recieved a cost-of-living allowance 7 years, while benefit costs doubled and almost tripled. A couple of years ago we recieved a .005% raise, that's a 1/2 of a percent, while benefit costs increased almost 11%. That was after going 7 years without any raise at all.
I believe anyone who serves the public should be paid a decent wage. If you don't think we perform a decent/fair service, then perhaps you, youself can take care of the homeless, the unemployable, the aged, and mentally and physically disabled.

I have to laugh | 12:54 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

At those who are trying to categorize law enforcement as a 'cushy' job. I imagine the family members of the record number of officers who were killed in the line of duty last year around the country are glad to know their loved ones had a cushy job.

As for the person who said teaching the next generation is more important than other public service jobs....please don't call the police when you're in a traffic accident or have someone breaking into your house, and the next time you need medical care, or have a fire bandage things up and put out the flames yourself....anyone can be a cop or a firefighter, it's not like teaching, right?

Teachers did it to themselves | 12:54 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Y'all sound like a bunch of democrats! The best way to increase teacher salaries is to take school away from the government. Look at the most inefficient bulky organizations in the country and you'll find that most of them are government run. You add competition by privatizing education and teacher pay would be the first thing to increase. Because if you're going to succeed as a business you need the best employees. And the most important employee in the business of school is the teacher. But when a bill comes out for school vouchers that would help promote this competition, TEACHERS ARE THE MAIN ONES TRYING TO SHOOT IT DOWN! Why? Because they all have their jobs guaranteed and protected by the unions. And they are terrified of not getting a job when they have to compete for it like everyone else (outside of government employees) does. Look at what happened to the airlines after deregulation by the government. Fares dropped considerably, and the competition drove extreme improvements to the industry as far as the product was concerned. The same would be true for our children's education with privatization. But teachers (who care about our kids?)don't want competition.

Comments continue below

Menon | 1:08 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Wow I think it was E.J. up there that said teacher's only work 180 days out of the year. First of all my Dad was a teacher and he worked well beyond 180 days out of the year as did his fellow teachers. During the summer he had to attend many workshops to make him "better". He also worked well over 8 hours a day. He had to be there well before school to work with kids and stayed another hour after as well. Not to mention coming home and planning for future classes and then grading papers. E.J. needs to get informed before commenting on this because it really shows his ignorance.

re: Clare | 1:09 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

"Guess were [sic] not all dumb?" And you're in the top two "percent tile [sic]"? In just a few sentences you manage two spelling errors, and you call yourself a teacher? If you can't see what you're even saying, you don't know what you're saying. Learn how to write.

Smart Man | 1:25 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Teachers make plenty as it is, considering they get all that time off in the summers and Christmas break. This has to be one of the biggest conspiracies of all time that somehow the teachers are not paid enough. I will be doing everything in my power to insure that salaries are kept as is.

Vern | 1:28 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

One of the problems with our education system is the administration. One of the largest school districts in the nation, the Catholic School system in New York is run by a handful of unpaid volunteers and has a total office staff of less than 20 people.

RN | 1:30 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Like the nursing profession, the teachers wages will have to be raised due to a shortage. Demand is what raises wages and it looks like Utah will have to pay up or do without.

Re: I Have to Laugh | 1:44 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I wrote that law enforcement was a cushy job. I don't mean to disrespect anyone because I well know the dangers of the job. As a correctional officer, I took count of the inmates once an hour. I made sure they got to eat and made it to their free dental appointments on time. I worked a four day week, then had four days off every week. The work was easy, easy, easy (dangerous, but easy). Sure, there were fights to break up, but no more than here at school. I had no education beyond a high school diploma when I worked corrections. Now I've got a Bachelor's Degree plus over a year's worth of graduate level work towards an endorsement. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on that required education. As an employee of the state, should I now be paid the same as when no education was required of me? That makes no sense at all!

lara | 1:45 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

To "E"
My husband has been a teacher for almost 20 years. No, he doesn't like his salary, but he continues to teach because he loves the students and hopes is making a difference in their lives. Why should he go out and find a job in the private sector? Do you want only those who are satisfied with a low salary to be teachers? And our benefit package? Our insurance rates go up every year and swallow any raise he may have received. He spends much more than six hours a day in preparation, plus has to deal with parents, who are the real problem. Our newest car is a 1993, and I have to work to supplement our income in order to have our home. Yes, other workers (police officers, etc), should also receive more money. But when talking specifically about teachers, please let them have the respect, and the money, they deserve. If you have children, as we do, we want only the best to serve them in the classroom.

my two cents | 2:00 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Hey! Somebody else is using my pseudonym! STOP IT! "my two cents" is mine.

OK, now that that is out of the way, I have to laugh at the characters who say that free markets should set teacher salaries. First, the government is involved in education, so there is no such thing as a free market in education. Second, (related to the first), there has to be perfect transfer of information for free markets to function perfectly, and there are too many privacy issues here for that to happen. Third, the dogmatic NEU is involved, and will allow no real reform to teacher pay (paying good teachers more and poor teacher less - imagine paying Ronnie Price and Carlos Boozer exactly the same because they both belong to the NBAPA). A market-based salary would pay better teachers more. And, as has been eloquently stated above, the effects of the free market are being felt (as much as possible given 1-3 above) we have an incredible shortage of teachers! but the free market can't fix that by raising salaries to the point where we no longer have a shortage, because of government and union involvement.

Vouchers.... | 2:11 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

WOW...What a suprise...The voucher "issue" is brought up to show how teachers did it to themselves. That comment is not worth responding to.....Teachers are not worried about competition. Someone can teach it better? GREAT! Let me know what works and I will implement it into my classroom. I am always up for new ideas about how to effectively teach my students. One thing that might help is if parents get involved in their kids education, more than just calling to complain about Johnny not getting to turn in work when he skipped class, or Mary getting her phone taken away in class. We have become a society of facilitators, in which our kids are somehow immune to disipline and tough times. The "Gimme" attitude of the kids her in Utah is sickening, and guess were it comes from? The "I have to have a 5000 sq. foot house with a BMW and boat or no one will respect or like me" parents! Teachers work dang hard, and we should thank them. Sure, not all are great, but what profession has 100% of it's employees who give it their all?

Teacher in 15th year | 2:35 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

re:my two cents.

Thank you for your post, it was worth every penny.

I do not know my IQ, but I earned a 3.78 GPA for my BA and a 4.0 for my MA.

I get to the school 1 hour early every day before contract time to help the students, and leave 1 hour after the bell, once again working with students. I stay late for parent teacher conferences, basketball games, football games, school dances, and other activities. I spend 1-2 weeks every summer at inservices learning strategies to better serve the student population.

Don't feel sorry for me, I chose my profession. Don't worry about how I feed my children, because I have invested wisely and own my own home, vehicles and have my retirement planned.

That being said, lay off whining about bad teachers because it's soothes your selfish ego about how you literally "steal" time, food and clothing from committed Utah educators by penny pinching and making "YOUR" kids "NOT" a priority in your state budgets. Teachers ARE WORTH MORE THAN YOU THINK!!!

As for me, I will continue teaching because it is what I do, and your children need teachers that care about them.

RE: Utahn's Are Basically Idiots | 3:02 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

"UTAHN'S" are basically idiots? How ironic.

Utah County Resident | 3:17 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I have no beef with teachers. I think that largely they are dedicated professional employees. What I object to is that the UEA is largely running or intimidating the State. One thing education has seen over the years is a lot of ginger bread curriculum being added to the system. Education was once upon a time was charged with teaching the basic reading, writing, science, math....the core courses which leads to doing well in higher education. Students are not being taught rigorously as in other 1st or 2nd world nations. What we are seeing is an explosion of students being taught frills, and coupled with the fact that not all students are qualified for the university. A better trade school system should be fostered. Another thing that has entered into the equation is Title IX....that is killing lower and higher education as to where the dollars are going. Building Taj Mahal facilities, coupled with not getting the dollars in the classrooms, which would provide salary increases and more resources (technology, etc.) for the students and instructors. Clearly, there are unmotivated parents out there. The dissolution of the nuclear family with rampant divorce, drug use, etc. is impacting schools and students.

LOVE TO TEACH | 3:37 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I love to teach and I will continue teaching for a long time! I do not like the pay, but it is what it is. I agree that there are some poor teachers in the system and they need to be taken care of, but I believe it has more to do with lack of parental involvement and administrators who won't do their job! If parents refused to allow their kids to be in a teachers class who is a poor teacher, the administrator might be forced to take a look at the situation. Then, I am sick and tired of the argument that teachers only work a 180 days. First of all, that is not only a half of a year - even people who work 5 days a week 50 weeks a year(two weeks vacation) only work 250 days. So, we work 70 days less. It does seem like a lot, but I can guarantee that I spend more time in those 180 days on my job than most people do in their 250 days. And don't forget we have to deal with people who don't appreciate us as well. I will keep teaching because I LOVE IT!

Attitudes R Legislature's Fault | 4:33 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

After reading these posts, I realized that many of our legislators has created a vitriolic environment in the teaching profession. I'm sure that those who want to see an end to public schools are enjoying this greatly. The plethora of anti-public education bills passed in the last few years is sufficient evidence of the true intent of many in our government. Who in their right mind would want to teach in a state where in the last five years, perceptions have shifted from "good job teachers for helping our kids score above national average with below average funding" to "we hate you teachers because you make more money than I do and my kids aren't worth that." This constant negative drumbeat pounded away by our own state government has unfortunately turned much of the public against teachers. In addition to that, it has now become the American way to blame others for our own mistakes as a society and teachers are taking the beating. We have become an entitlement culture where Johnny's "A" grade is all that matters, and if Johnny get's anything less, it is all the teacher's fault. Prospective teachers, this is not the place anymore.

One more thing... | 4:58 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Even though so much has been written about teacher pay, working conditions, benefits, etc., I would like to clarify a few items. Teachers are paid for 184 days. Teachers are paid an hourly rate with NO overtime. Teachers do not receive ANY paid vacation or ANY paid holidays. Teachers are rarely allowed personal leave the school day before or after a holiday. Teachers who take more than allotted personal leave must pay for their substitute out of their own pocket. I "voluntarily donated" (read "had no choice")one of my sick days to the district-wide pool. Prior to this past year any pay raise I received was wiped out by increases in insurance premiums. (I dropped district insurance and now save $300 month by going with the insurance plan from my spouse--private sector employer.) Stipends for coaching and advising groups/clubs at the secondary level likely do not reach federal minimum wage for the hours invested. None of this is a complaint; rather this is factual information for the many who are uninformed.

New Teacher | 5:00 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I'm a new teacher. I'm still learning, but I want to be to be a great teacher. I know it will take many years of experience and practice. I've never had such a hard job before, but the work feels like it's important. I'm torn between continuing to teach and contributing positively to our society or whether to find a job that pays better and/or is less stressful. Part of the problem with education is that teachers are now responsible for educating students on everything. We are expected to teach much more than science, English, history, and math. While other things, such as values, are important, they should also be taught in the home. I feel too much time is wasted on the lengthy curriculum, the stuff parents should be teaching, and extra curricular activities. The teacher's have to run these activities, which means they have less time to prepare the lengthy curriculum they have to cram into a year. While I would love a pay increase, I would rather the school districts give us circumstances we can succeed in instead of circumstances that are a struggle to succeed in.

dingo | 7:40 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

you have to use a scalpel and not a bunker buster to solve the issue. i would love to teach but the outdated and draconian unions along wit a paranoid upper management make the idea impossible. big surprise the teachers want more. well we do too. how about accountability for the work? how about standards and ethics beyond showing up and punching a clock? how about administration that understands their role?

it is a two way street and right now the unions and the administration watching over those teachers are all about themselves. i would suggest break the antiquated union gestapo and send the unnecessary administrators packing and there will be plenty of money for those that prove their worth..

i would love to teach but i will not be forced to go through the hoops required to do it and i donï¿½t mean the schooling or the background checks. the requirement to join the union for protection. the requirement to tow the line even if it goes against my principle. the requirement to be a slave for others. teaching used to be noble and it can be again. districts reap what they sow as does the state.

Teaccher | 7:35 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

For those of you who are bashing the education system and teachers my guess is you are the ones who complain, but are not willing to do extra at home with your children. My next question for you is how many of you have to create a detailed plan when you are going to be out sick. Oh wait you just call in. How many of you spend hours correcting papers or searching for some new strategy that you could teach Johnny to help him understand how to subtract? How many of you get up drive to school early, teach, prepare for an hour or more after school to come home, cook dinner, help your own child with homework. Then spend the rest of your night correcting your students school work. How many of you leave your jobs when you punch out. That is the majority of you that are complaining about teachers salaries. You say that we can afford houses on our salaries. That is not always true. As for the cars, are you assuming that none of the teachers have a husband or wife that works who helps pay for the car?

too many | 7:44 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

it's not fun to play anymore, the playground's too crowded. we can start over again tomorrow.

J | 8:26 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

RE: Teachers did it to themselves

I agree with you that the free market has the solution to the problems being addressed here.

As for those of you who cite "demand" as a reason for increasing teacher wages, understand this: there has always been 100% demand for education under compulsory education laws. The public has no other choice but to demand it.

What you are citing is called increased volume. This is what happens when the government sponsors a monopoly. They give the product for free, compel everyone to use it. Ultimately, they don't have adequate resources for the need, so they ration the product.

Out current educational system is the result of government rationing. The only way to fix it in its current state is to raise the taxes of the people-including teachers-to fund the system as the UEA would have it (Assuming they are not proponents of eliminating other government spending).

....Or we could release the choke hold on the market and allow a voucher type system (a hybrid of totally private and totally public-liberals like hybrids these days anway) to find equilibrium in the market.

Amused | 8:49 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

To the person writing Re-Clare I couldn't help but chuckle at your comment. I find it ironic that you are pointing out Clare's comment about being in the top 2% intellectually stating it it percentile not percent tile. Your following comment was "My point exactly. IQ measures you ability to succeed in school not your intelligence, or determination. An intelligent person knows that."
You may want to look up the definition of IQ. If I'm not mistaken it stands for "intelligence quotient". IQ certainly doesn't measure or guarantee success in school, however it is supposed to identify level of intelligence. Perhaps your last comment ("An intelligent person knows that") was an unintended indictment of your IQ?

Free Market? You're kidding? | 11:26 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Are you sure you want the free market running our schools? I have a friend who teaches at an inner city school in California that was just taken over by the state government and turned over to a private, for-profit corporation. The corporation is in league with a textbook company (kickbacks) and the teachers are allowed to only teach the textbook and nothing else. Students in every core subject area are to read the book every day and answer the questions at the end of each chapter and nothing else can be brought in to motivate the students. My friend says he has had students crying at their desks because of the tedium work, and the drop out rate is soaring. So much for private enterprise running our schools.

oldy but goody | 12:03 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

Good Grief!
Give it up already! FYI: The $2500 raise that so many of you think was totally unwarranted, wasn't fully received anyway. "Those" allocating the funds miscalculated, and the "real" amount never made it to the papers....(or to the teachers)
I have been teaching for a long time, and I still spend many, many, many hours beyond my contract time. The job teachers have now is probably double the duties of 25 years ago. We have much more paperwork than just grading papers. We now have become "data keepers". We have many menial tasks; Most of which have nothing to do with teaching. I enjoy creating a working environment for my students, teaching them, and associating with them, but with all the "added" stuff required, teaching time gets gypped. To those of you who are so down on teachers, come visit a classroom for a day and see what it's really all about. I think you would be amazed.

Anonymous | 12:42 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

I looked up the three teachers in my area on the Utah right to know website. I was shocked to find that two made over 60k and one 55k a year. One is middle school, the other two are elementary teachers. Once underpaid teachers are now equal or above their counterparts in the private sector. Time to invest the money in other school related items, or for the legislature to give the money to the disabled who have been underfunded for the past several years.

Anon 12:42 | 7:51 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

Wow...

Did you continue reading down into the low $30,000,

My wife and I had 2o years each, Highly Qualified and MA's in teaching and took and hit from just above $70,000 to just under $40,000 each to live near my parents as they need more help.

I know there is a cost of living difference, but not $60,000 combined.

Sorry Utah just doesnt pay, when the time is right, we'll move back to the districts that know us and want us to return.

We are just temporary statistics, but you Utahns are stuck with Snow, Chris Butters, Huntsman Jr., and all the LDS - Anti LDS BS.

English Teacher | 9:12 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

I'm sorry for teachers who didn't get to see their raise last year; I am one of the lucky few, I guess, who actually got the full raise.

I have to agree with many of the above posters. I love to teach! I consider my work as a "service," so I am willing to do it for the small salary I get. However, the hate and venom regularly spewed towards teachers on this site and others is discouraging. I think it is an ominous sign when a state looming on the edge of a severe teacher shortage is denigrating the teachers they already have. It does not create a desirable work environment and will only encourage capable teachers to look outside of our state for work, as they obviously already are.

E - your ignorant | 10:29 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

Hey E, you're clearly ignorant. All careers that require 6 years of schooling after high school allow someone to buy a house. Teachers work 7 paid hours a day. That doesn't include anything we do outside the classroom. Also keep in mind that you have to compare apples to apples. How much does a starting teacher make in other states.

Get a clue before you flaunt your ignorance.

question | 10:53 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

Since when is a bonus a raise? I am sure teachers are thankful but it is my understanding that this money can be pulled at any time. In other words the $2500 is not being placed on the teachers salary schedule. Legislatures do not want to give the money to teachers every year. However, they do want to use smoke and mirrors to fool the public and teachers into thinking the money will be there year after year. It simply will not and that is why legislatures refuse to address the WPU. Pay is one component but the lack of support and the bashing from students,parents and administrators is simply unbearable. It is no wonder they cannot find or retain teachers! I am not surprised!!

Dave | 11:58 a.m. Feb. 14, 2008

So I need to give up more of my pay so that someone else (who has a heavy-handed lobby group and a sympathetic media supporting) gets paid more? Thanks a lot.

to Dave | 4:36 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008

So when the teachers got a bonus after 5 years of no increases, all the sudden somebody subtracted money from your paycheck?

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